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Amareo Davion
11-10-2009, 10:43
Hey I am starting a IG army and I am wondering if the cadian kasrkin are any good. Opinions on this will be appreciated.

Crazy Ivan
11-10-2009, 10:55
In what sense do you mean? If they're good models? Or if the rules are good?

If the second, you can use them as either Storm Troopers or as Veterans with Carapace armour. Both have their uses, although Veterans are a lot more popular (they're Troops, so scoring, a lot cheaper, and can have three special weapons instead of the Storm Trooper's two). Storm troopers can be good if they use a Valkyrie as transport (they have an optional special rule that helps them with debarkation), and their basic weapon, the Hot-shot Lasgun, is a good Marine-killer.

If the first, I'd say they are good models in a Cadian army (it's fluffy to have them too), but personally I'd rather have Storm Troopers or Veterans that look a bit different.

Amareo Davion
11-10-2009, 10:56
Thanks Crazy Ivan, I mean are their rules good as I already think they are good models. Thanks again for the info.

Bunnahabhain
11-10-2009, 13:48
They can sensibley be used as carapaced armoured veterans, or Storm troopers.

Veterans are a good unit, and despite the fact that the carapace upgrade is overpriced, they remain a good unit with it. EDIT Just about. that upgrade is very overcosted. END EDIT

Storm troopers, are, unfortunately, rather poor. For virtually any job, veterans do it better, for less, whilst being scoring...

They suffer from having an expensive, low AP weapon in an edition where cover saves are everywhere, too low a strength to hurt marines effectively, too low a range, and a rapid fire (not assault) weapon. Against marines, they get one shot off, kill half their target, then get charged and die...

They're good at killing T3 3+/4+ troops, but for most people, this simply isn't a big enough selection of targets to make them worthwhile. To kill marines, just buy a russ- the same cost as a stormtrooper squad- which does both this and other jobs better.

Vaktathi
11-10-2009, 13:50
They can sensibley be used as carapaced armoured veterans, or Storm troopers.

Veterans are a good unit, and despite the fact that the carapace upgrade is overpriced, they remain a good unit with it.

Storm troopers, are, unfortunately, rather poor. For virtually any job, veterans do it better, for less, whilst being scoring...

They suffer from having an expensive, low AP weapon in an edition where cover saves are everywhere, too low a strength to hurt marines effectively, too low a range, and a rapid fire (not assault) weapon. Against marines, they get one shot off, kill half their target, then get charged and die...

They're good at killing T3 3+/4+ troops, but for most people, this simply isn't a big enough selection of targets to make them worthwhile. To kill marines, just buy a russ- the same cost as a stormtrooper squad- which does both this and other jobs better.

Well, everything I was going to say was summed up perfectly here. Kasrkin really are more of Stormtroopers looking at the models with their heavy powerpacks and guncables, but they can service as Carapace Vets. ST's are generally just too expensive and their wound output and staying power too low to be worth it most of the time. They shoot once, might kill half of their target, and then promptly die

That said, the Carapace option for Vets is pretty much also universally seen as horrifically overcosted as well, but still not quite as bad as ST's.

djinn8
11-10-2009, 14:06
Storm Troopers are best used as 5 man suicide squads, deepstriking with meltaguns to kill enemy heavy support. Their ability to re-roll the scatter dice means they are probably going to get a nice rear armour shot on their intended target, after which they're pretty much doomed. Your opponent still has to kill them off however as a bunch of low AP troops in their back line isn't something they can ignore, so get them in cover if you can, go to ground, and make your opponent waste a turn or two shooting/assaulting at them.

Xenobane
11-10-2009, 14:24
ST's are generally just too expensive and their wound output and staying power too low to be worth it most of the time. They shoot once, might kill half of their target, and then promptly die.

Well yes, if you disembark them right next to a 10-man Marine squad and expect them to survive then you'll find them pretty useless. But why would anyone do that? A 10-man ST squad with plasma guns should kill 5 Marines (outside cover) more often than not. There are plenty of nasty and expensive units (combat-squadded Devastators, CSM Chosen etc) that they can take out in one go and have a chance of going on to inflict more damage in later turns. If you need to take out out a larger enemy squad then you badly need to give them some help. Essentially I'd characterise them as an extremely situational unit that have to be used skillfully in concert with others.

The trouble with using them in all-comers lists is that there are several armies that don't have enough 3+ saves for them to make use of the hotshot lasguns - and then they really are a waste. If you know you're up against a MEQ army then they can be fearsome, used well.


Storm Troopers are best used as 5 man suicide squads, deepstriking with meltaguns to kill enemy heavy support.

I'm not sure they're good value used like this. You're paying for AP3 guns that you don't intend to use. By way of comparison, the same unit in the 4th ed codex was 75 points. Now it would be 105 points and all you're getting for that extra outlay is the DS re-roll. It's entirely possible that the most expensive piece of enemy armour won't be a whole lot more expensive than that, rendering the use of a suicide unit a bit of a pointless exchange.

Vaktathi
11-10-2009, 14:36
Well yes, if you disembark them right next to a 10-man Marine squad and expect them to survive then you'll find them pretty useless. But why would anyone do that? A 10-man ST squad with plasma guns should kill 5 Marines (outside cover) more often than not. There are plenty of nasty and expensive units (combat-squadded Devastators, CSM Chosen etc) that they can take out in one go and have a chance of going on to inflict more damage in later turns. If you need to take out out a larger enemy squad then you badly need to give them some help. Essentially I'd characterise them as an extremely situational unit that have to be used skillfully in concert with others.
At that point though you are talking about using a 200pt unit against what is effectively a numerically inferior ~120pt unit or so in isolation, making them useful only in highly situational encounters against inferior foes in the open without cover and relying a lot on there not being anything else nearby. It doesn't take much to kill off a 10man T3 4+sv unit or break it.

Anything the ST's can do, a Leman Russ can do as well or better, with more survivability, and probably cheaper too.

djinn8
11-10-2009, 19:25
I'm not sure they're good value used like this. You're paying for AP3 guns that you don't intend to use. By way of comparison, the same unit in the 4th ed codex was 75 points. Now it would be 105 points and all you're getting for that extra outlay is the DS re-roll. It's entirely possible that the most expensive piece of enemy armour won't be a whole lot more expensive than that, rendering the use of a suicide unit a bit of a pointless exchange.

Sure they might not be killing their points worth, but that's not why you send in Storm Troopers. They're there to prevent their target from killing the rest of your troops. I'd gladly pay 105 points to stop a Battle Wagon full of Burna Boys reaching my line unmolested, or to prevent a Whirlwind raining down hell on my guys throughout the whole game. Just keep in mind how many lives those Storm Troopers are going to save when used correctly.

Bunnahabhain
11-10-2009, 19:29
Sure they might not be killing their points worth, but .....snip...
Just keep in mind how many lives those Storm Troopers are going to save when used correctly.
But other units can do the same job cheaper and better.

Aries_37
11-10-2009, 19:56
Use them as Inquisitorial Storm Troopers. Min squad with double melta in a valkyrie.
Best of both worlds; cheap, scoring and with melta firepower.

khyron
11-10-2009, 20:29
In my experience, Storm Troopers are a unit that looks awful on paper but perform well when on the table.

At 1500 pts, I run a full 10-strong squad with a flamer and plasma gun. I always go with the deep strike mission. Bomb them behind enemy lines or on a flank and they can seriously disrupt the enemy's advance.

My tactics involve a quad threat: a gunline, deep striking Troopers, outflanking sentinels, and a mechanized contingent of vets.

Brady
17-10-2009, 21:02
It doesnt matter how you argue storm troopers are better theres always a cheaper unit that does the job better

RCgothic
17-10-2009, 22:35
As a minimum strength unit with 2 meltaguns I can see them being useful to pop tanks after deep striking accurately.

A full stormtrooper unit with plasmaguns can score 30% more marine kills than veterans, but costs 65% more. Against any other target the veterans only get better still.