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eyescrossed
11-10-2009, 15:45
Hi everyone, I'm going to be starting Orks soon, and I love the Bad Moons. Their fluff really appeals to me, but their yellow colour scheme? Bleh.

So, I don't know much about how Orks are organized (hahaha, organized Orks), but are there other clans besides the Snakebites, Blood Axes, etc, and are there any rich ones?

If not, would any Ork Warbosses go on their own with their own Warband and change their colours?

Funny how you can know how an alien species reproduces but not how they're organized.

stormboy
11-10-2009, 15:56
Hmmm... well Orks also have Freebootas. Which are essentially klanless orks or a bunch of orks from different klans all merged up for a waaaagh.

The klans have stylized colors and patterns but that doesn't stop you from creating a cool story as to why your badmoons are more brown than yellow. Maybe they shifted to red after they saw their moon blown up? or maybe they thought blue was a better color (Badmoons used to have loads of blue mixed into the yellow in the old days) or maybe the badmoons slowly shifted to a speed freak force and added loads of flame and fire motifs.

Just be creative and tell a cool background story or create a secondary klan.

susu.exp
11-10-2009, 16:00
There are no clans beyond the six. Clans are groups of Orks that specialize in one particular aspect of Ork Kulture. Think of them as High School cliches: Goff Jocks, Snakebite Stoners, Evil Suns Skaters... Tribes are like actual schools. They are local groupings of Orks, which tend to contain some clan groupings (the bigger the tribe the more of the clans you will see). Orks that do not specialize on one aspect of Orkiness that much or that belong to tribes too small to have a full range of clans (and in particular lack the one, they´d otherwise belong to) are Freebooterz.

In parallel to this, there are other group-structures like the speed freaks (mostly evil sunz, but there are speed freaks in most if not all clans) or Stormboys.

So, what you may be looking at is a tribe that if it was larger would have bad moonz, but as it stands is too small to really segregate. So they´d be richer than other tribes, but lacking an actual clan structure.

eyescrossed
11-10-2009, 16:28
There are no clans beyond the six. Clans are groups of Orks that specialize in one particular aspect of Ork Kulture. Think of them as High School cliches: Goff Jocks, Snakebite Stoners, Evil Suns Skaters... Tribes are like actual schools. They are local groupings of Orks, which tend to contain some clan groupings (the bigger the tribe the more of the clans you will see). Orks that do not specialize on one aspect of Orkiness that much or that belong to tribes too small to have a full range of clans (and in particular lack the one, they´d otherwise belong to) are Freebooterz.

In parallel to this, there are other group-structures like the speed freaks (mostly evil sunz, but there are speed freaks in most if not all clans) or Stormboys.

So, what you may be looking at is a tribe that if it was larger would have bad moonz, but as it stands is too small to really segregate. So they´d be richer than other tribes, but lacking an actual clan structure.
Ah, I see.




Hmmm... well Orks also have Freebootas. Which are essentially klanless orks or a bunch of orks from different klans all merged up for a waaaagh.

The klans have stylized colors and patterns but that doesn't stop you from creating a cool story as to why your badmoons are more brown than yellow. Maybe they shifted to red after they saw their moon blown up? or maybe they thought blue was a better color (Badmoons used to have loads of blue mixed into the yellow in the old days) or maybe the badmoons slowly shifted to a speed freak force and added loads of flame and fire motifs.

Just be creative and tell a cool background story or create a secondary klan.
Yeah, I will :)

carltmc
11-10-2009, 18:33
Make your own clan. Come up with your own color scheme.

Jo Bennett
11-10-2009, 18:41
Traditionally there are lots of smaller clans, but 6 main ones. Making one of your own is not out of the question. When I was younger I made one of my own, blue and silver colour scheme called... Wicked Stars. :eek:

carltmc
11-10-2009, 18:52
Sounds pretty cool..

susu.exp
11-10-2009, 18:53
No, there are only the 6 clans. Other organisatorial forms are either tribes or other parallel structures like the kult of speed. I don´t know where people get the idea that there are more clans from. IIRC the 6 have been around since RT and all Orks that do not belong to them are freebooterz.

Jo Bennett
11-10-2009, 19:50
"There are many clans but only six really big ones" - Codex: Orks, Copyright Games Workshop Ltd. 1994, p8

That's where I get the idea from can't speak for anyone else.

susu.exp
11-10-2009, 20:08
Re-reading "Waargh, the Orks" similar wordings appear. Though it doesn´t really make sense to think of other groupings as klans these days (mostly because of the change in Ork procreation in Gorkamorka). The Klans all are a group that caters to one particular facett of Orkdom and I don´t think there´s anything left when Krumpiness (Goffs), Kunning (Blood Axes), Speed (Evil Sunz), Teef (Bad Moonz), Looting (Deathskulls) and Gork'n'Mork (Snakebites) are already covered. Back when there was an idea of a family structure to Orks other clans similar to these made sense. Now that Orks multiply through spores, wander towards the nearest Ork settlement as Yoofs and possibly join a Klan there, these family ties are gone and the Klans are simply groups of Orks favoring one facett of Orkiness over others. And anything that has more than one aspect runs orthogonal to clans (Stormboys have kunning, speed and krumpiness rolled into one, the cult of speed has speed, looting and teef, etc.).

2nd. Ed. reinforced the idea that all Warbikers were Evil Sunz and all Mega armoured Nobs were Bad Moonz and all Looters were Deathskulls, etc. It´s something that didn´t really make sense and makes even less sense in the light of Ork reproduction (since Gorkamorka). In fact, arguably the Gorkas and Morkas from Gorkamorka represent the beginnings of the Blood Axe and Goff clans on Gorkamorka.

sigur
11-10-2009, 20:24
...
Funny how you can know how an alien species reproduces but not how they're organized.

We know how insects reproduce but the organisation of bee hives and similar stuffs (fish swarms for example) still bear many mysteries.

Apart from that, there are minor klans, outcasts like freebooterz and mercenaries, ...

Jo Bennett
12-10-2009, 04:55
I think it does make sense. The text implies that the clans are genetic in origin (hence the Bad Moon's faster growing teef). A simple genetic mutation in the right place could produce a slightly modified clan e.g. all the characteristics of the Bad Moons but with a tendency to favour purple instead of yellow.

eyescrossed
12-10-2009, 04:56
Make your own clan. Come up with your own color scheme.
I think I will, and I can't think how anybody would be bothered if I came up with a good background story :)




Traditionally there are lots of smaller clans, but 6 main ones. Making one of your own is not out of the question. When I was younger I made one of my own, blue and silver colour scheme called... Wicked Stars. :eek:
I'll be making a warband that has mixed klans (so different colour schemes on most squads, which will help me identify them), but mostly Bad Moons who have just changed their colours.




No, there are only the 6 clans. Other organisatorial forms are either tribes or other parallel structures like the kult of speed. I don´t know where people get the idea that there are more clans from. IIRC the 6 have been around since RT and all Orks that do not belong to them are freebooterz.
Ehh, I don't think anybody will mind if my "Bad Moons" are a different colour.




We know how insects reproduce but the organisation of bee hives and similar stuffs (fish swarms for example) still bear many mysteries.

Apart from that, there are minor klans, outcasts like freebooterz and mercenaries, ...
Hm. Interesting.

But, I dunno, maybe mine are mercenaries for other Klans, workin' fer teef.




I think it does make sense. The text implies that the clans are genetic in origin (hence the Bad Moon's faster growing teef). A simple genetic mutation in the right place could produce a slightly modified clan e.g. all the characteristics of the Bad Moons but with a tendency to favour purple instead of yellow.
Thanks for the idea :D

susu.exp
12-10-2009, 05:36
I think it does make sense. The text implies that the clans are genetic in origin (hence the Bad Moon's faster growing teef). A simple genetic mutation in the right place could produce a slightly modified clan e.g. all the characteristics of the Bad Moons but with a tendency to favour purple instead of yellow.

The text doesn´t imply clans are genetic at all. Yes, it does states that Bad Moon teeth grow faster. But that doesn´t mean which clan (if any) an Ork hooks up with is genetically determined any more than the statement that pro basketball players are taller on average than the general population leads to the conclusion that there´s a pro-baller gene. Bad Moonz are Orks that by some means are richer than average and invest their teef in snazzy stuff. Of course Orks with faster growing teef are going to be more likely to have more teef than Orks with slower growing teef and thus be more likely to join the Bad Moonz.

The colors of the Clan are a cultural phenomenon, Orks come in contact with other orks and the clan colors get spread this way. In the absence of such contact, you get clanless Orks, which may yet assemble into proto-clans like the Gorkas and Morkas on Gorkamorka. Such Proto-clans would have many of the features of clans, but lack the name and color scheme.

Jo Bennett
12-10-2009, 05:55
"Each has distinct cultural preferences and abilities, which probably reflect genetic variations engineered into Orks by the Brain Boyz in the distant past" - Codex Orks, 1994, p8.

What text are you reading?

Hellebore
12-10-2009, 05:58
The difference between orks and humans though is that orks were specifically engineered for a purpose, whilst humans were not. If humans had brainboyz then there is a likelyhood that the pro-baller gene would exist because they wanted it to.

The orks are so heavily engineered that it seems strange that a regular section of the population would grow superfast teeth for no reason.

Hellebore

eyescrossed
12-10-2009, 06:01
"Each has distinct cultural preferences and abilities, which probably reflect genetic variations engineered into Orks by the Brain Boyz in the distant past" - Codex Orks, 1994, p8.

What text are you reading?
I should get that Codex.




The difference between orks and humans though is that orks were specifically engineered for a purpose, whilst humans were not. If humans had brainboyz then there is a likelyhood that the pro-baller gene would exist because they wanted it to.

The orks are so heavily engineered that it seems strange that a regular section of the population would grow superfast teeth for no reason.

Hellebore
QFT.

Hero adamite
12-10-2009, 06:06
My cousin made his own, he merged the death skulls and bad moons to make the death moonz i think, and kind of mixed there colour scheme. You could always do something like that :p Just throwing out an idea.

Lothlanathorian
12-10-2009, 06:25
The orks are so heavily engineered that it seems strange that a regular section of the population would grow superfast teeth for no reason.

Hellebore


So why do their teeth go so fast? I'm willing to put money on it they didn't engineer a certain percentage of Orks to be rich and program Orks to use teef as their monetary system.

That is something I think about on my own quite a bit but have never asked on here. I do not believe that all Orks with fast growing teeth are Bad Moons, even though I do believe all Bad Moons have fast growing teeth. (All labs are dogs but not all dogs are labs)

Hellebore
12-10-2009, 06:31
It may have been the reason, as ridiculous as it sounds. But you run the risk of excusing everything with 'just as intended' if you keep going in that vein.

I would think it's a balance of genetics vs environment, but where psychology and culture have a far greater genetic component than you would find in humanity. So it would take a very noticable change in environment for a genetically predisposed bad moon to become a goff (like for instance there are only goffoids around at the time).

The other option is that somehow the environment effects the genetics. An ork is drawn to the bad moons and THEN starts growing more teef.

Hellebore

Lothlanathorian
12-10-2009, 08:36
See, I was thinking off it as the Bad Moons serve no purpose, so the only reason they are formed is because certain Orks have the money and like to spend it. A Goff with teeth that grow faster is still a Goff. If he isn't a big Goff, then his friends are pretty wealthy, but otherwise, he is just a Goff with better kit or some extra stuff he likes. ALL of the other Klanz serve some kind of social/combat purpose except for the Bad Moonz (I refuse to accept 'being rich' as a social purpose as opposed to status).

Evil Sunz: Mechanics, pilots, drivers, bikers
Snakebites: Republicans :p j/k, not entirely certain what purpose preferring to run around with only low tech stuff might serve.
Goffs: Common infantry for the Orks, foot soldiers and storm troops
Blood Axes: I think these were intended to be the Ork commanders for the Krork military. Strategically minded leader types.
Death Skullz: Not really sure what category they fill as warriors. Perhaps Klepto Orks just end up here? They steal and loot whatever they find. Perhaps turning the enemy's weapons upon them was their purpose. The ability to take anything and make it into a working tool of war again. Perhaps just more common infantry only with the psychological desire to steal?
Bad Moonz: Perhaps, as the Wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ork_(Warhammer_40,000)#Bad_Moonz) suggests, it is just more of 'if the Orks believe it hard enough, Chuck Norris will make it so'? (By Chuck Norris, I mean magical Ork thoughts, hopes, dreams and wishes or some such)

stormboy
12-10-2009, 13:43
Badmoons are the merchant class. They buy and sell things. They have the loot to commission cool mek weapons and vehicles. The rich in a society can drive change with money - the same could apply to orks. Bad Moons supply money to meks and docs and they in turn create more and more ferocious designs.

DDogwood
12-10-2009, 14:59
ALL of the other Klanz serve some kind of social/combat purpose except for the Bad Moonz (I refuse to accept 'being rich' as a social purpose as opposed to status).

Remember that 'being rich' doesn't bring the same social benefits to an Ork as it does to a human. Orks can't buy protection from their enemies - that would be un-orky, and thinking too much about how to live longer is a Blood Axe fing. So really the Bad Moonz add money to the Ork economy and keep it going. Ideally that means that they use their own teef to buy expensive gear and become elite warriors, but sometimes it means that they provide extra teef to other Orks who bash them in the face, and use it to buy expensive gear and become elite warriors.


Snakebites: Republicans :p j/k, not entirely certain what purpose preferring to run around with only low tech stuff might serve.

Snakebites have the best squig breeders and runtherdz, so they provide the rest of the Orks with a steady supply of food and slave labour.


Death Skullz: Not really sure what category they fill as warriors. Perhaps Klepto Orks just end up here? They steal and loot whatever they find. Perhaps turning the enemy's weapons upon them was their purpose. The ability to take anything and make it into a working tool of war again. Perhaps just more common infantry only with the psychological desire to steal?

Death Skullz requisition the material supplies required to keep the Orks military equipped. The Meks don't build all those shootas, sluggas, choppas, trukks, buggies, battlewagons and fighta-bommerz out of nothing, you know.

BTW, I like how you say

ALL of the other Klanz serve some kind of social/combat purpose except for the Bad Moonz
and then say that you can only figure out the purpose of half of the clans. That's good Orky math!

Lothlanathorian
13-10-2009, 07:04
and then say that you can only figure out the purpose of half of the clans. That's good Orky math!

I do try, good sir.;)

Seriously, though, I knew all the others had a purpose, but that doesn't mean I knew absolutely what it was. Your answer for the Snakebites and the Death Skullz are fitting and make very good sense.

My only issue with the Bad Moonz and the fast growing teeth is that I don't see the brain boyz having anticipated the Orks using teeth as their monetary standard.

susu.exp
13-10-2009, 11:37
"Each has distinct cultural preferences and abilities, which probably reflect genetic variations engineered into Orks by the Brain Boyz in the distant past" - Codex Orks, 1994, p8.

What text are you reading?

See, that text does not imply that the clans themselves are genetic, just that they reflect genetic variation. Just as my pro-baller example does reflect genetic variation in humans (some are bigger than others).

As noted, the brain boys encoded 6 basic features of orkiness and different Orks feel predisposed to one or more of them. Those who concentrate on one of them to the exclusion of others belong to clans.

Lothlanathorian
14-10-2009, 07:18
See, that text does not imply that the clans themselves are genetic, just that they reflect genetic variation. Just as my pro-baller example does reflect genetic variation in humans (some are bigger than others).

As noted, the brain boys encoded 6 basic features of orkiness and different Orks feel predisposed to one or more of them. Those who concentrate on one of them to the exclusion of others belong to clans.

Pretty much how I see it. I also prefer to think of Orks on the Tribe level. Thinking of them on the klan level seems to me a bit like thinking of a football team as being all Running Backs or all Wide Receivers. (That's right, football isn't soccer, soccer is soccer, silly rest of the world :D)

TrojanWolf
14-10-2009, 08:01
My own warband is very Deathskull, but I decided that I wanted to use orange as the clan colour. Far as I can see, there's no hard and fast rule that says your warband must be painted as they behave.

beerdrinker
14-10-2009, 08:14
Just go Freebooters. you can paint them any way you want and they fit in with the background you want as a Ork Warboss going his own way. Also a signature unit for Bad moonz is Flash gits. Flash gits have always had a pirate theme and as freebooterz are ork pirates it all seems to go together. At least thats my point of view for what its worth.

Lothlanathorian
14-10-2009, 12:34
The gunner in my Ork Trukk (which is all red) has blue horns on his helmet. Why? Because Orks think blue is lucky and he wants to be lucky. If he were in a Klan, he would be Evil Sunz, but he is the gunner in a Trukk for my Nobz. My Nobz are Blood Axes as my Warboss is a Blood Axe and this is the army he leads, which will have several other Klans represented. They all come together to make a team. Or army.

susu.exp
14-10-2009, 15:50
Pretty much how I see it. I also prefer to think of Orks on the Tribe level. Thinking of them on the klan level seems to me a bit like thinking of a football team as being all Running Backs or all Wide Receivers. (That's right, football isn't soccer, soccer is soccer, silly rest of the world :D)

Most Ork warbands are tribes. But during Big Waarghs, where a lot of tribes meet the orks sort themselves into klans. So single Klan armies still make sense, but you have to understand that they only occur under particular circumstances.

Lothlanathorian
14-10-2009, 19:45
Oh yes, I completely understand that. And I enjoy the way some of the single Klan armies look (all Bad Moonz or all Goffs). I guess it my own personal bias I may be looking through. I like the look and feel of a tribe with several Klans represented so I tend to look at the whole of the Ork race that way. The 'big picture' or whatever you want to call. The whole machine and not just an individual cog.