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Eulenspiegel
12-10-2009, 00:29
We are paying customers. Why are our complaints being dismissed as "whining"?

Disclaimer:
Dear MODS, this thread will derail fast, Iīm sure of it. Yet, I didnīt start it for ***** and giggles, I feel I have a valid issue to bring up as a paying customer for GWs products.
I ask of you not to shut the thread down if it goes downhill, but rather to delete individual postings that contriubte to that.
People disagreeing with my point will resort to calling names quickly, with or without the explicit intent to shut the thread down. Likewise, people agreeing to my point might resort to flaming themselves.

I would like to hear both sides, but in a civil manner.



My gripes with the Codex: Space Wolves 5th edition

At first the biased view of a 40K player:
This is the most unbalanced, untested, mary-sued codex there is and *hopefully* was.
All the īdexes that came out in the last months had something that made you stop and think. Are Vendettas really not too cheap? Didnīt they forget to add 50pts to Vulkan? Did any playtester really build a tricked out Nob Biker mob?
But all in all the codexes were solid. Good upgrades to their predecessors, with some powerbuilds that we came to expect of shoddy GW codex desing. Nothing a reasonable group canīt handle.

Come October and the Wolves.

I fully expected flexible units that are good in hand-to-hand combat and shortrange firefights. But I also expected them to pay the points for that.
40k army lists are about balance. You expect your 1500points army to perform *roughly the same* as another army with the same points, in the hands of a similarly skillfull general. Of cause this can never be 100% true, but does it have to be GLARING?


1.) Wolf (sorry) Grey Hunters for 15points apiece.
A Tacitcal Marine costs 16points.
The Grey Hunter has special rules on top of that, including "Counter Charge" that is tailor-made for a unit thatīs Rhino-mounted and drives up close and fires its guns. ALSO, they get up to two special weapons for free (if one is a flamer)! Free.
This gets me to their ability to take two special weapons. This is absolutely AWESOME and should be worth at least *some* points. The "disability" to take a Heavy Weapon (boo-hoo!) becomes a fat advantage. Nice job. It gets worse if you include the (for loyalists) mandatory Veteran Sergeant. They pay roughly 30points for that model. Space Wolves pay 18points, because thatīs the price for a Wolf Guard before upgrades.
All in all the best troop (screw that, say: UNIT) in 40k. While not paying the points for it, compared to almost similar units in other armies.


2.) Wolf Guard:
Seriously. 18points. Please compare to price of naked Vanguard, Honour Guard, etc.
With the best tailoring options in all army lists (this alone being not too OP) and being able to be assinged to almost all units in the codex.
Those could easily be 10points more and still be worth it.


3.) Long Fangs:
They pay Tactical prices for their heavy weapons. People defending this will say: "But they donīt have ablative wounds, each casualty will be expensive!"
This doesnīt add up.
First, they get a superior fire-splitting rule. Second, regular marinesī weapons donīt get cheaper if you donīt buy ablative wounds.
Hey but they CAN , right? Thanks for walking into my little trap: why then are Wolf Guard not much more expensive? They have the OPTION to upgrade to hell and back.


4.) Wolf Claws:
Since when are wolves renowned for their slashy claws? Fangs, yes ...
"Mary Sue me some wargear".


5.) Thunderwolf Riders:
I have massive problems with those.
Many players dont. But ask yourself: if you dont have problems with them, but they make 2 out of 10 players lose their ****, in a games system that has space elves who dance around in polka dot jumpsuits and shoot killy wire,maybe there might be something a little wrong with them?
Oh and Iīm not even talking about a model with cavalry movement that gets a load of attacks and has TRUE toughness of 5 (why is that? because the wolf is going to wield the powerfist if the marine riding it is being pulverised by a Melta?)

Also, this is the most obvious "screw you" from GW that I ever saw: they donīt even produce a regular model for the unit. They produce an accordingly priced Character! Yes, yes, many will use counts-as to use other models, but GW aims at the little kids with big-purse parents! They will buy the **** out of Canis to make units.


6.) Wolf Guard Terminators canīt teleport:
I was actually laughing and crying when I read that. No they canīt. Fat disadvantage, huh?
So, to make up for that a little, they get Drop Pods.
Let that sink in.
An option every other Marine chapter would pay their left hand to get is concealed as a disadvantage.


7.) Space Wolves Psychic Powers:
īnuff said ...
They went from "We hate the witch " to "Farseer, come here and say that again!"
Lash of Submission is abusable.
Jaws Of The World Wolf (BUY MORE TRANSPORTS, SUCKERS!) and Murderous Hurricane (weīll give them something that helps against opponents that want to get close and opponents that want to run away!) arenīt abusable, their intended use is devastating against some armies. Njalīs "Lord of Everything" isnīt even a psychic power and is potentially as powerful as Lash at first glance!


Those are my major gripes.
That is even discouting the "wolf in front of everyting" policy, that shows how imaginative the codex designer was. "Canis Wolfborn", that name alone makes one cringe, ... even my toenails curl ...

As said, Iīm a customer of GWīs products, I feel I have to bring this up.
I didnīt feel it for the last codex releases.
I fear, FEAR what will become of my beloved Blood Angels, if theyīre really up next after the Tyranids. I donīt want to feel cheap for winning a game. I donīt even want to think that my opponent could have bought that additional Landspeeder that could have won him the game, if only the units were costed appropirately.

I feel the Codex: Space Wolves was a major ass-pull or a result of executive meddling. In the short time since release weīve had a load of threads where Marines, Chaos Marines, Squats, Orks were proposing to use that for their army list (though Iīm waiting for the first Eldar to do so).

When you have rules for some game system, and everyone prefers one rule over the others, itīs a sure sign that it is imbalanced.

ntin
12-10-2009, 00:37
An interesting thread but what in your opinion could Gamesworkshop due to correct the mistakes you perceive with this new codex? The Gamesworkshop rule production model has become cumbersome lacking a mechanism (albeit mini-update codex or web errata) to rebalance the codex to something you would view as playable. It would seem at this point anything printed is written in stone until the next edition.

Mannimarco
12-10-2009, 00:43
well said friend, there are many gripes about the wolves on here but this one has a better layout and doesnt come across as "wah the puppies are better than EVERYBODY now"

indeed point for point the grey hunter is better than the tactical marine, hes cheaper and has counter attack which is nice

wolf claws: like lightning claws only better

assault troops: like everybody elses only better

special weapons either really cheap or free altogether?

marine on a bike: T4 (5) marine on a wolf T5? yeah that sounds right

psyker powers: like other armies only better

i suddenly have this mental image of 2 space wolves reading "everybody wishes they were smurf but theyre not cos they dont have the geneseed, never the less they shall always aspire to the teachings" and laughing their asses off

at the end of the day this could be a worrying sign of things to come: the brand new codex is so full of uber OTT mega mass stompy units of mega cheese that you just need to go out there and buy it, it makes sense from a business standpoint to release bigger and more powerful books so that people go out and buy them, will it increase short term sales? yes it will as people chasing the new powerful codex will rush out to buy this new powerful army (until the next one comes out, then theyll just go for that) but in the long term it could very well turn off many gamers whodont see much fun in rushing out to buy a brand new army every release just to have a chance of winning against the next generation of super codexs

Shamutanti
12-10-2009, 01:16
In the three GWs I've bounced between since the Space Wolf release the only cry I've heard are some people upset by the idea of Wolves riding Wolves. Everyone else has simply got on, played 'em, won a bit, lost a bit.

They appear to just have a different swing on the Space Marine codex with nothing in particular that devastates a game. Sure there's a few nasty tricks I've seen played out but they were more learning curves than game winners.

Amusingly I recently saw 90 Bloodclaws and a Battlecaptain type HQ deploy on the table and then simply get removed in vast amounts due to a couple of nicely placed pie plates.

Bunnahabhain
12-10-2009, 01:21
There are a number of valid complaints about the SW codex.

-Pts cost on many things

-why wolfclaws are not simply lightning claws, not lightning claws ++. At least they have a different name, rather than just being lightning claws with different rules...

-thunderwolves seem generally badly conceived, or just really badly executed.

However, the terminators in a drop pod is not a mistake ( although the pricing for it may be..) Space wolves have a long established background of not using teleports, and I would much rather see wolf guard in drop pods, than have them denied any deep strike ability.
If there is a problem, then it's with the basic Wolf guard unit itself, or the drop pod rules.

The army wide counter attack is incredibly powerful. I think it could be a deliberate attempt by the designers to slant the metagame somewhat away from close combat, which is a good thing.

Torga_DW
12-10-2009, 01:25
Personally i've got the new codex (just to read), and it doesn't seem any worse than the new vanilla marine dex. It seems in line with the new standard of codexes. Once i get in contact with my friend, i intend to battle my tzeentch chaos marines against it.

mattschuur
12-10-2009, 01:49
I have some gripes as well-

Grey Hunters everything you said. Also, they can get 2 melta's for the same price as the 1 allowed to a tac squad. when you compare them to other basic Marine equivalents it gets more absurd. A GH squad with a Pf on a basic guy and 2 melta's is 30 points cheaper than a CSM squad with Asp. with PF and 2 meltas. Yes CSM are LD 10, but GH have ATSKNF, acute senses and counter-attack for no real downside. Sure their PF has only 1 attack base, but when they are charged, which is what'll happen alot, with a LD check he has the same attacks as a vet. Sgt. oh and the squad has the same number of attacks as if they charged, for free. I'm not even going to compare them to tac marines, but needless to say a tac squad with a PF and 1 Melta cost's 15 points more.

Wolf Riders that are T5, 2 wound cavalry with 6 rending attacks? Enough said.

4 Character options allow spamming of super psychic powers and near complete nullification of opponents psychic powers, nice.

Wolf scouts are very nearly all snikrots?

Minor issue but their dreads come base with Assault cannons for the same cost as a basic, multi-melta vannilla dread, and they can have the 5+ to ignore psychic powers option so you don't even need your own psykers.

Swiftclaw bikers are cheaper than vanilla bikers and yet have BP and CCW, yes they can only have 1 special weapon at BS 3 but make up for it with counter attack and berserk charge meaning they have 4 attacks on the charge and 3 when charged after a LD check. More expensive nilla bikers have 2 and 1.

I've had some people say, but look what they lost! What did they lose? Sternguard and Vanguard? Okay, those are two very expensive units that with increased versatility get much more expensive. And, with 2 special weapon GH for a god awful cheaper price and swiftclaws with the same amount of attacks as vanguard for also a cheaper price, yeah i'd take the wolf options 100 out of a 100 times. Thunder fire cannon? no real loss. Attack bike squads and scout bikes? again, no real loss with their cheap bikes and expensive yet powerful wolf cavalry. legion of the damned, see sternguard/ vanguard argument. Ironclad dread, they don't really need it. Honour guard, see Sternguard/vanguard argument.

Basically, Space wolves lost all the really expensive/niche options from the Vanilla book and got boosts to most of the options that are left. The only real downside, is that wolf lords have to pay for their 4++ save, but that's really negated by a better relic blade, frost axe, which is only +1 s but allows them to use 2 ccw's and they have 1 attack more base and the addition of sagas which can make them even more effective.

finally, psychic powers. I keep asking myself again and again why the most anti-psyker Legion of the Loyalists have the best psychic powers in the game. Jaws owns nidzilla and can potentially make any multi-wound expensive model be removed from play without wounding, saves of any kind and ignoring the rules for instant death. Tempests wrath makes skimmers, jump infantry and bikes immobile less they die to moving. Oh and there's no mention of say jump packs not using their extra move to negate this. If it was instead, if they move over 6" then they treat it as difficult and dangerous terrain it would still be useful and not OP. Murderous Hurricane is just as bad except it targets all infantry and bikes and does a whole bunch of S3 attacks on top of them counting as moving through dangerous terrain their next turn. True the other psychic powers are pretty average but whose not going to take varied combinations of the above 3?

Just to make things clear, i'm not saying i'm never going to play against them, or that i think they're unbeatable or what not. But like the Original Poster, I believe that the Space wolves have too many undercosted units with far more options, capabilities and special rules than is warranted. People will find ways to beat them.

As far as it not being much different than the vanilla dex i disagree. I can run 3 tac squads with PF, ML and melta in rhino's, a 10 man assault squad with a PF, a 5 man terminator squad with AC, a dread with AC and HF, a Pred destructor with EA and a chaplain with a JP for 1,500 points. The space wolf equivalent with GH's having 2 meltas and a PF in rhinos and everything else being equal will run 1,435 points. I know its only 65 points, but that combined with GH's being much better in CC, Blood claw JP have more attacks than Assault squads, chaplains and Dreads being equal and Space wolf terminators having counter-attack and all they lost is the ability to use a free ML and gained the option of a free 2nd melta, not a loss and not worth 35 points. They can get the same things as Vanilla for a cheaper cost and a better special rule, counter attack, than they lost, combat tactics.

matt schuur

Nicha11
12-10-2009, 01:55
You're complaints are valid, and whilst I don't agree with them
I simply choose to express my disagreement by informing you of it and explaining the reasons why

I enjoy the fact that the GW design went over board and started writing ridiculously cliched and ridiculous units/fluff/rules.

Finnaly an army (orks excepted) who isn't afraid to not take itself seriously:D
I'm sick to death of the whole "End of the freaking universe, Grim, Dark, Cut, Slash" that has pervaded Warhammer.

Doubtless my views will be different to others on this thread, but thats the whole point of a forum:D

ehlijen
12-10-2009, 02:04
You forgot to add that the wolves psychic hood equivalent is not limited to one attempt per psychic power. Ie if you have more than 1 priest in range, all get to try and nullify the power. So not only do they have the best psychic powers (and better force weapons) but also the best psychic defenses short of buying null rods for everyone.

Dexter099
12-10-2009, 02:16
The Grey Hunters are the only main gripe I have with the main codex. There's just no reason for it whatsoever.

Oh well, the Dark Eldar will still dominate them.

Lord_Crull
12-10-2009, 02:19
You're complaints are valid, and whilst I don't agree with them
I simply choose to express my disagreement by informing you of it and explaining the reasons why

I enjoy the fact that the GW design went over board and started writing ridiculously cliched and ridiculous units/fluff/rules.

Finnaly an army (orks excepted) who isn't afraid to not take itself seriously:D
I'm sick to death of the whole "End of the freaking universe, Grim, Dark, Cut, Slash" that has pervaded Warhammer.

Doubtless my views will be different to others on this thread, but thats the whole point of a forum:D

But this debate is not about OTT fluff. It's about game balance. Which is needed in a game for people to continue to play and is very different than fluff. This is not about seriousness, but about making the rules of the game fair and playable.

Mánagarmr
12-10-2009, 02:29
But this debate is not about OTT fluff. It's about game balance. Which is needed in a game for people to continue to play and is very different than fluff. This is not about seriousness, but about making the rules of the game fair and playable.

Yeah, because until the power-creep of the Space Wolves current codex, this hobby was perfectly balanced.. :rolleyes:

Mannimarco
12-10-2009, 02:35
thats not the point, the point is codex creep is alive and well and will only climb higher with each new release

i give you lash spam, then biker nob, then a fair amount of stuff in the space wolf codex......i believe nids are the next codex to be released are they not? so you can only imagine what will be in there

i challenge anybody to come on here and tell me "no the space wolf codex is perfectly balanced compared to everything else out there, everything cost just fine and nothing is undercosted or overpowered at all"

thats what this is about, showing the space wolf codex has a lot of potentially game breaking and overpowered options in there

Edonil
12-10-2009, 02:36
Yeah, because until the power-creep of the Space Wolves current codex, this hobby was perfectly balanced.. :rolleyes:

Along these lines, I point people to the Daemons of Chaos Armybook, which was the last straw for a wide number of players (including two thirds of my local Fantasy population, including myself). Codex: Space Wolves isn't even a fraction of that balance breaking, so I don't have too many problems with it.

Corpse
12-10-2009, 02:38
Recent find.

Use jaws of the world wolf to off your own lone wolves.

Its possible.

WinterWolf
12-10-2009, 02:38
I have to admit...all those wolftaiol talismans and runic nullifications come in real handy vs the Tau and the Tyranids...(my two usual oppoenents)

Sarcasm aside.

Space Wolves dropped 2 special rules for 2 new ones. Combat Tactics and Combat Squads for Counter Attack and Acute Senses. Exactly the same ones infact as they had in their old codex. I'll agree they are maybe atad under priced. But you can get a standard tac squad with Flamer and Heavy Bolter for...170pts? A GH squad with Flamer and melta comes in at less but with its increased ferociousness if charged has lost it's tactical flexibility.

The Thunderwolves are silly, wont ever be using them regardless of their statlines. As for the Jaws...OMG! Death without Insta Kill rules...oh wait...Chaos have ALWAYS had that power, only they get a Model that keeps on killing afterwards. And of course the Eldar D-Cannons never killed anything...let us not mention a Vortex grenade or rolling a 1-2 on a deepstrike mishap table or indeed a wound from a Force Weapon... The spacewolf Power i find scariest...Living lightning (and not mentioned by anyone yet) Assualt D6 Str7 Range LOS power??? Sure people get armour and cover saves against it, but thats nasty as hell.

But hey, it's the new Codex and this happens every time with every new codex. Then people learn how to fight the armies in question and time moves on.

Lord_Crull
12-10-2009, 02:39
Yeah, because until the power-creep of the Space Wolves current codex, this hobby was perfectly balanced.. :rolleyes:

Actually I think the Wolves Codex is mostly balanced, I was talking about why game balance was important and how this thread was about that. Not Fluff.

Mannimarco
12-10-2009, 02:45
The Thunderwolves are silly, wont ever be using them regardless of their statlines. As for the Jaws...OMG! Death without Insta Kill rules...oh wait...Chaos have ALWAYS had that power, only they get a Model that keeps on killing afterwards.


ah yeah the chaos power that does the same thing as this? i assume you mean gift of chaos with its mighty 6 inch range? JOTWW has what? 24 inches? so 4 times the range so its vastly superior to the chaos version

and it gives us a model that keeps on killing? yes fear the killing power of my mighty spawn! with its mutiple attacks and no armour save! of course if i gift of chaos you i dont get a kill point, you kill the spawn (very easy to do i add) and you get a point, how many chaos players actually take spawn? really? that many of you? guess its not that great a model that keeps on killing after all

space wolves: just like everybody else......only better

Paraelix
12-10-2009, 02:47
I love that there appears to be no non-space marine players bitching in this thread.

Everyone here is a (loyal or chaotic) Space Marine player complaining that their guys don't have all the flash crap that the next guy has. Dark Eldar are hobbling around with rules 2 editions out of date... Where as soon as the slightest variation in any other rules occurs, Space Marines are the FIRST BOOK OUT, and often have multiple editions released between new Rulebooks.

Every new book is bound to have better things than the previous one. If each book had all the same technologies and rules as the previous army released, there would be no variety... No reason to collect a different army except for the shiny new models.

Also, direct price comparisons in any list are always going to be stupid. Why are Predators so freaking dirt cheap compared to Guard tanks? Because Guard benefit MORE from their tanks than space marines do. Why does Eldar unit A cost more/less than Space Wolf unit B... Because they're completely different armies and their prices have to balance against the rest of the army they were bought for.

Sure, GH might have super cheap weapons. But I fully expect you're gonna make exactly the same complaints about the Nid codex as soon as it comes out. It'll be another thread of "OMGWTFBBQ Rending for this cheap? I have to pay X to get rending on my marines/eldar/orks/etc"

All in all. Warhammer 40k is already divided between most armies and Space Marines. Having yet another overpowered space marine army is no surpise. They have the best rules because they sell the most. Space Marines on their own sell more miniatures and products than all of Warhammer Fantasy combined at most gaming stores. It is a fact of life.

WinterWolf
12-10-2009, 02:52
We can only judge by perosnal experience and I've seen what that sorcerous power does to armies. or to qoute the list from one game... Carnifex, Hive Tyrant, Carnifex, Tyranid Warrior and each of those things killed several other models.

Jaws has killed 1 Carnifex. It has also killed 2 sternguard, 1 devastator and 1 techmarine. (They were only blood angel successors)in a differant game and failed to actually drop anything else.

So far at our table the Chaos power is winning.

Vaktathi
12-10-2009, 02:53
I love that there appears to be no non-space marine players bitching in this thread. Probably because many of these changes don't have as great an effect on many non SM armies as they do between SM armies. SW's greater CC abilities than normal SM's don't matter one iota to Tau or IG as even basic SM's will kick their butts with ease, but they die just as easily to shooting attacks and the like.

The problem is with SW's and their relation to other Marine armies, which make up the majority of played armies apparently. In that regard, there is very clear evidence of codex creep.

WinterWolf
12-10-2009, 02:54
Also what Paraelix just said.

beeny13
12-10-2009, 02:59
actually swiftclaws and skyclaws are much worse. they get one more attack at ws3 on the charge, but can't shoot at all if they can assault, and the shot is bs4 ap5 on regular assault marines.

if you get the second free special weapon you can't be led by an awesome wolf guard in a rhino. 2 attacks is a big loss for a powerfist, and getting the extra attack on the charge is nice, but not the same.

scouts are great but with only one special weapon they aren't that fierce, compared to land speeder storm delivered scouts they are about even.

really the only thing that is just plain better in the wolves book is a grey hunter squad led by a marginally kitted wolf guard. in a rhino or a razorback. actually i think that a razorback, 5 grey hunters, plasmagun, wolf guard with fist and combi-melta is about as good as it possibly gets for only 168.
where as space marines can take 6 marines, powerfist, razorback, combimelta
for 181.
grey hunters with wolf guard make tactical squads look terrible.

also thunderwolf cavalry is 50 points, compare them to nob bikerz, which actually get an awesome shooting attack, and can be much more resilient. also it takes cavalry longer to get into position. fleet isn't as great as turbo boost.


also they lost a little space in their drop pods probably from their bulky werewolf muscles.

WinterWolf
12-10-2009, 03:01
Also...the "greater CC abilities" We've had since the last codex. That's not a new development. The points for some stuff came down because it was way too pricey to filed Spacewolves against any "modern" army and several old codex's too and expect to see a worthwhile 5 turns.

Vaktathi
12-10-2009, 03:11
Also...the "greater CC abilities" We've had since the last codex. That's not a new development. The points for some stuff came down because it was way too pricey to filed Spacewolves against any "modern" army and several old codex's too and expect to see a worthwhile 5 turns.

Except SW's get an additional attack on the charge now and get it when counterattacking too. True Grit didn't let you get a charge bonus. GH were also 17pts previously.

Cale86
12-10-2009, 03:13
Geez, you focus on everything the SW get cheap and completely ignore everything we pay through the nose for.. Yeah sure, we get cheap naked WG, but the second you add in any upgrades it can get out of control fast.. Let's compare BA VAS with WG with Jump Packs, lot's of upgrade options but lets see.. a 10man squad naked.. Theres a 155pt difference, Counter attack is worth 155pts?

The TDA Assault squads I see in so many Vanilla Lists, 3x LCs, 2xTH+SS comes in at a tidy 200pts for you lot. For SW however, 270pts..Add in the fact that if we don't want to footslog that unit from 1 side of the table to the other we need to take a DP, thats 305pts.

Skyclaws, woo in a 10man unit they come to a whole 10pts cheaper, but have BS3 and WS3 and if you don't have a WG or character with them they get ADD.

I could spend all day bitching about how unfair that your Chapter Masters get a free S10, AP1 Ord a game, How your Chaplains give rerolls vs everything while ours is vs 1 unit type, how your apoth's can give FnP, how your elite unit gets special ammo, your transports having a higher capacity, and a lot of other crap..

There are people bragging on every damn forum that they've beaten new wolves all over the place, if they were so damn OP then wouldn't you have hundreds of people complaining they were crushed? You say you fear beating an opponent and feeling cheesy, you know what I fear? Having a good game with someone, then after I pull out a win, they say I only won because I was using SW. They are far from unstoppable and it's extremely easy to go overboard with upgrades and characters and cripple your own list.

Man up and quit your bitching.

Aurenian
12-10-2009, 03:18
I'm not wholly convinced that the space wolves are balanced but just from some of the things I've noticed from this forum and the codex:

The space wolf units are good, and possibly better than their vanilla equivelents. but this talk always seems to revolve around the same few units. each unit has its niche thing it does well but at the expense of flexibility. grey hunters are great short range, but if their ride gets popped? a ranged slugfest with guard or tau or even their smurf battlebrothers could be bad.

each of the units seems to have one way to play, more in keeping with the eldar or necrons. When the space wolves get to fight their way they'll be tough to beat, but they may have problems when the enemy won't play ball. once people figure out the counter to the uberwolves list it could be interesting to see what people start using.

my two cents

Paraelix
12-10-2009, 03:18
The only real turnaround since the last wolf codex is they upped the price of BCs to stop all space wolf players spamming them and never taking GH... Now GH are a more viable option... That's not to say BCs are bad now, they're just priced better... And people are choosing guns over a boatload of combat attacks. Though if you take a stroll into the army list thread, there are quite a few lists still running bloodclaws... so go figure.

As to SW vs SM

Space Marines-
Spec Characters- they are all pretty hot, and some completely change the mechanics of your list.
Normal Chars- Librarian powers are good. Orb Bombardment on chap master.
Scouts- cheap, LSS
Tac Squads- Free Heavy Weapons. Versatile. Combat Squad-able. Cheaper than they used to be with upgrades.
Attack Bikes- err... you can buy them...
Assault Squad- Isn't required to charge. Can have a sergeant (WG cannot join Storm Claws)
Scout Bikes- again... errr... you can buy them...
Sterguard- are awesome. Unit can ignore cover, fire up to 30" or be AP3 without paying for any upgrades :D
Ironclad- Speaks for itself.
Transports- Greater capacity
Terminators- some builds more cost effective than SWs
Devos- can take additional marines.
Thunderfire Cannons- you can take them :P

Are we getting the picture yet?

Israfael
12-10-2009, 03:23
I've had a few games under my belt against my brothers new 'dex, and it's hardly as game-breaking as everyone claims; the sky isn't falling, I assure you.

I guess I can see the humor in it.. Dark Angels were the "testing grounds" for the Vanilla dex. Codex Ultramarines rolls around and they roll out stronger, cheaper, and able to mimic almost every specialty aspect of our codex, but we're told to man up.

Now the Space Wolves go about the same amount of power creep and the crying begins.

This happens with every codex, why is it now that's it's unacceptable?

Mannimarco
12-10-2009, 03:25
complaining about the new codex is the name of the game: "3++ stormshields and free twin linked flamers and meltas!? damn broken vannila marines"

anybody else remember that?

SideshowLucifer
12-10-2009, 03:30
This happens every time a codex is released. The newest Vanilla SM codex had people screaming doom and gloom and wanting to throw themselves off buildings in protest. After a few games, people thought maybe it was balanced. Guard, same thing. Why should the SW codex have a different response? Wait till Eldar become psychic masters again and their star cannons reember how to kill marines again, then the panic can ensue.

Israfael
12-10-2009, 03:30
complaining about the new codex is the name of the game: "3++ stormshields and free twin linked flamers and meltas!? damn broken vannila marines"

anybody else remember that?

Case in point.

It's almost the quality of crying we heard when Chaos players lost the :cheese: that was 3.5, er - I mean when they lost the fluff.. almost.

Mannimarco
12-10-2009, 03:32
oh carful there friend your about to cross a line ;)

druchii
12-10-2009, 03:39
WARNING: Big, nasty wall of text below. I'm sorry. If you like you can scroll down to the bottom and read my " My final point"-it gets at the heart of the space wolf whining, I think.


We are paying customers. Why are our complaints being dismissed as "whining"?

Disclaimer:
Dear MODS, this thread will derail fast, Iīm sure of it. Yet, I didnīt start it for ***** and giggles, I feel I have a valid issue to bring up as a paying customer for GWs products.
I ask of you not to shut the thread down if it goes downhill, but rather to delete individual postings that contriubte to that.
People disagreeing with my point will resort to calling names quickly, with or without the explicit intent to shut the thread down. Likewise, people agreeing to my point might resort to flaming themselves.

I would like to hear both sides, but in a civil manner.



My gripes with the Codex: Space Wolves 5th edition

At first the biased view of a 40K player:
This is the most unbalanced, untested, mary-sued codex there is and *hopefully* was.
All the īdexes that came out in the last months had something that made you stop and think. Are Vendettas really not too cheap? Didnīt they forget to add 50pts to Vulkan? Did any playtester really build a tricked out Nob Biker mob?
But all in all the codexes were solid. Good upgrades to their predecessors, with some powerbuilds that we came to expect of shoddy GW codex desing. Nothing a reasonable group canīt handle.

Come October and the Wolves.

I fully expected flexible units that are good in hand-to-hand combat and shortrange firefights. But I also expected them to pay the points for that.
40k army lists are about balance. You expect your 1500points army to perform *roughly the same* as another army with the same points, in the hands of a similarly skillfull general. Of cause this can never be 100% true, but does it have to be GLARING?


1.) Wolf (sorry) Grey Hunters for 15points apiece.
A Tacitcal Marine costs 16points.
The Grey Hunter has special rules on top of that, including "Counter Charge" that is tailor-made for a unit thatīs Rhino-mounted and drives up close and fires its guns. ALSO, they get up to two special weapons for free (if one is a flamer)! Free.
This gets me to their ability to take two special weapons. This is absolutely AWESOME and should be worth at least *some* points. The "disability" to take a Heavy Weapon (boo-hoo!) becomes a fat advantage. Nice job. It gets worse if you include the (for loyalists) mandatory Veteran Sergeant. They pay roughly 30points for that model. Space Wolves pay 18points, because thatīs the price for a Wolf Guard before upgrades.
All in all the best troop (screw that, say: UNIT) in 40k. While not paying the points for it, compared to almost similar units in other armies.


2.) Wolf Guard:
Seriously. 18points. Please compare to price of naked Vanguard, Honour Guard, etc.
With the best tailoring options in all army lists (this alone being not too OP) and being able to be assinged to almost all units in the codex.
Those could easily be 10points more and still be worth it.


3.) Long Fangs:
They pay Tactical prices for their heavy weapons. People defending this will say: "But they donīt have ablative wounds, each casualty will be expensive!"
This doesnīt add up.
First, they get a superior fire-splitting rule. Second, regular marinesī weapons donīt get cheaper if you donīt buy ablative wounds.
Hey but they CAN , right? Thanks for walking into my little trap: why then are Wolf Guard not much more expensive? They have the OPTION to upgrade to hell and back.


4.) Wolf Claws:
Since when are wolves renowned for their slashy claws? Fangs, yes ...
"Mary Sue me some wargear".


5.) Thunderwolf Riders:
I have massive problems with those.
Many players dont. But ask yourself: if you dont have problems with them, but they make 2 out of 10 players lose their ****, in a games system that has space elves who dance around in polka dot jumpsuits and shoot killy wire,maybe there might be something a little wrong with them?
Oh and Iīm not even talking about a model with cavalry movement that gets a load of attacks and has TRUE toughness of 5 (why is that? because the wolf is going to wield the powerfist if the marine riding it is being pulverised by a Melta?)

Also, this is the most obvious "screw you" from GW that I ever saw: they donīt even produce a regular model for the unit. They produce an accordingly priced Character! Yes, yes, many will use counts-as to use other models, but GW aims at the little kids with big-purse parents! They will buy the **** out of Canis to make units.


6.) Wolf Guard Terminators canīt teleport:
I was actually laughing and crying when I read that. No they canīt. Fat disadvantage, huh?
So, to make up for that a little, they get Drop Pods.
Let that sink in.
An option every other Marine chapter would pay their left hand to get is concealed as a disadvantage.


7.) Space Wolves Psychic Powers:
īnuff said ...
They went from "We hate the witch " to "Farseer, come here and say that again!"
Lash of Submission is abusable.
Jaws Of The World Wolf (BUY MORE TRANSPORTS, SUCKERS!) and Murderous Hurricane (weīll give them something that helps against opponents that want to get close and opponents that want to run away!) arenīt abusable, their intended use is devastating against some armies. Njalīs "Lord of Everything" isnīt even a psychic power and is potentially as powerful as Lash at first glance!


Those are my major gripes.
That is even discouting the "wolf in front of everyting" policy, that shows how imaginative the codex designer was. "Canis Wolfborn", that name alone makes one cringe, ... even my toenails curl ...

As said, Iīm a customer of GWīs products, I feel I have to bring this up.
I didnīt feel it for the last codex releases.
I fear, FEAR what will become of my beloved Blood Angels, if theyīre really up next after the Tyranids. I donīt want to feel cheap for winning a game. I donīt even want to think that my opponent could have bought that additional Landspeeder that could have won him the game, if only the units were costed appropirately.

I feel the Codex: Space Wolves was a major ass-pull or a result of executive meddling. In the short time since release weīve had a load of threads where Marines, Chaos Marines, Squats, Orks were proposing to use that for their army list (though Iīm waiting for the first Eldar to do so).

When you have rules for some game system, and everyone prefers one rule over the others, itīs a sure sign that it is imbalanced.

I'll start off by saying:
The term "may sue" should really be removed from one's lexicon of usage. It really is NOT an argument for anything. It's conjecture of the highest form, essentially putting whine on ice. Dressing it up a bit.

1. I still think marines are overpriced. I mean I love seeing someone plop down a marine army. Easy kills. GW simply made Grey Hunters worth your while by making them a good deal. Sure, if you spam six grey hunter squads in a list you'll be coming out ahead of your vanilla (I won't even bring up BT/BA/DAs) buddy, but that's how ANY codex is.

Fortunately they packed enough other cool crap into the codex that people are incented to NOT take JUST grey hunters. Nevermind grey hunters don't get heavy weapons(one of the staples of a good counter-rush marine army is to sit inside rhinos blasting away with lascannons, waiting for the opponent to come get you out of your bunker).

Not to menton that if you want to shove GHs into any sort of transport bar a land raider you're NOT getting that free secondary weapon if you include any sort of character. I mean our overpowered psykers have to hide somehwere!

Also, don't pretend protracted combats involving marines aren't incredibly common. Counter-attack vanished immedietly after that initial reaction, and then your puppies are just cute marines doing what CSMs have always done.

I do find the points increase on Blood Claws annoying, though.

2. Wolf Guard being 28 points is laughable. Seriously laughable. You'd never see them used! Suddenly a Pfist toting, combimelta serg. upgrade (who takes up his own elite slot....) jumps from 43 to 53 points? And he's replacing a guy who costs how much in the vanilla book? And he essentially takes the place of a second special weapon if you wish to mount the squad in a usable transport?

Oh, and compared to an honor guard (ignoring the fact that one of the three is a chap. champion...) they honor guard come out ahead. They're 35points each, where a similarly equipped WG is much more expensive. Vanguard vets are actually cheaper than WG when it comes to jetpacks (oh wait, you mean VGVs pay MORE for heroic intervention?! and way to pick on a unit that is universally regarded as too expensive). I could go on...

3. So you're saying adding ANOTHER expensive model to an expensive unit with NO extra casualties makes them LESS succeptable to losing expensive models when they take wounds? What?

4. Fluff changes. Deal with it. And which other chapter would make MORE sense to have awesome lightning claws? I'm not sure I get your point here, is it more whining and sour grapes?

5. Are you going to complain about Heralds on chariots, or Heralds of Khorne on bloodcrushers? (or bloodcrushers themselves?!) what about a necron lord on a destroyer body? Really? Seperate fluff from game, who CARES why he's true t5? In the end they're a very nasty unit that will suffer greatly when penned in by vehicles and then focus-fired like every other big, scary unit in the game. Not like they can all get feel no pain. How many points are they again?

That being said, I think the idea is awful, but I WILL defent GWs right to put stuff into books that you and I don't think should exist. Hell, as much as I hate to admit it, if some marine were to ride something into battle, it should be space wovles on, er space wolves. Or slamanders on dinosaurs.

6.Wait a second..So unless you want your WG terminators to slog it (or be split) you HAVE to buy them a transport. How is that NOT a disadvantage?

7.You need to say more. JoTWW is a buzzword for whine now. It isn't that bad, especially because it's on a 2W model in power armor who can at best get a 5+ save, and if he's wanging you with jaws, well then you're mostlikely reaching out and touching him with something very nasty. You haven't even brought up one of the coolest psychic powers (living lightning) and you're complaining about murderous hurricane? That can be cast on ONE unit?

I'll trade any of the above powers in for fortune or doom. Or lash. Or FNP bikers.

So you're complaining because the Space Wolves use a variety of things named after their namesake? What the deuce? If it bugs you so much, CHANGE THE NAME. You do know that 40k isn't all that imaginative in the first place, right? What would YOU have done differently?

And just because everyone wants to use new rules for something doesn't mean they're over the top, it means they're *******' cool and everyone wants to use them!

I fail to see how using orks or squats as Space Wolves makes one lick of sense, stop using the dregs of warseer to prove a shakey point please. I've seen orks on a carnifex, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

If you're insinuating that wolf players should somehow feel "cheap" for winning with a very balanced wolf list (how many times have YOU played with/against the new list?) then you've got another thing coming.


thats not the point, the point is codex creep is alive and well and will only climb higher with each new release

i give you lash spam, then biker nob, then a fair amount of stuff in the space wolf codex......i believe nids are the next codex to be released are they not? so you can only imagine what will be in there

i challenge anybody to come on here and tell me "no the space wolf codex is perfectly balanced compared to everything else out there, everything cost just fine and nothing is undercosted or overpowered at all"

thats what this is about, showing the space wolf codex has a lot of potentially game breaking and overpowered options in there


You contradict yourself. You use lash spam, then biker nob spam, and the space wolf codex as examples of codex creep..but lash still rocks the crap out of biker nobs, and most of the space wolf options will be FEEDING the biker nobs points! Nevermind eldravatar, DE raider dark lance spam, sisters lock-you-up-forever+3x exorcists, nidzilla are still tough as heck to deal with. Or the flying IG circus (or 9 leman russes...)

Can you say that "no the space INSERT CODEX NAME is perfectly balanced compared to everything else out there, everything cost just fine and nothing is undercosted or overpowered at all" ?

I can't, and if that can't be said why is it even being brough up in this discussion about space wolves?

If your precious codex creep is so prevalent shouldn't every tournament held after the release of a new codex be dominated by the new codex? A vast majority? Most of them? Some of them? Heck, give it some time. I mean if people had time to work the new "creeped" codex into their meta-game speculation for tournaments (ie they now know what to look out for, and how to deal with it) shouldn't that "creeped" codex STILL be smashing faces?

Oops.

My final point:
Anything looks neat in a vacuume. I mean I pay 15 pts for a teleporting marine with an invuln save, a power weapon, furious charge, ws5 AND he's scoring! So over the top! Oh, wait, when looked at in CONTEXT with the rest of the codex he's not so crazy, and actually kinda prices appropriately.

Saying that Grey Hunters are underpriced is a waste of time, really. If they were priced the same as a Vanilla marine I'd literally be losing 36 points in my current list (I run four squads of 9 in rhinos) that means I'm losing a razor back.

If you're losing the game to a single razor back (or a speeder like you said...) well then that's another story.

d

Ps. I'm sorry for the GIANT wall of text and I doubt I'll get many readers because of it, but these threads are dangerous! Impressionable people read these forums and when they see people complain so rampantly about a book it has a tendency to make them believe this hogwash!

Blitz001
12-10-2009, 03:46
Man up and quit your bitching.

qouted for truth

i played against the new space wolf book the other day, with my foot sloging IG. It was a really good game and my opponent managed to pull out a draw. I honestly did not think that anything he used were cheesy at all, he did use some of the so called "cheesy units" btw.

Xehmae
12-10-2009, 04:17
I agree with Druchii at 100%, nothing more to say!

Paraelix
12-10-2009, 04:18
My final point:
Anything looks neat in a vacuume. I mean I pay 15 pts for a teleporting marine with an invuln save, a power weapon, furious charge, ws5 AND he's scoring! So over the top! Oh, wait, when looked at in CONTEXT with the rest of the codex he's not so crazy, and actually kinda prices appropriately.

What 15pt models are you talking about???

Vaktathi
12-10-2009, 04:22
Anything looks neat in a vacuume. I mean I pay 15 pts for a teleporting marine with an invuln save, a power weapon, furious charge, ws5 AND he's scoring! So over the top! Oh, wait, when looked at in CONTEXT with the rest of the codex he's not so crazy, and actually kinda prices appropriately.I'm assuming you are referring to Bloodletters? Their save, while invul, is only 5+ rather than 3+ armor, and they no shooting and almost no upgrade options. Those things by themselves should make it apparent that such a unit really isn't OTT.

Amnar
12-10-2009, 04:26
We are paying customers. Why are our complaints being dismissed as "whining"?

Disclaimer:
Dear MODS, this thread will derail fast, Iīm sure of it. Yet, I didnīt start it for ***** and giggles, I feel I have a valid issue to bring up as a paying customer for GWs products.
I ask of you not to shut the thread down if it goes downhill, but rather to delete individual postings that contriubte to that.
People disagreeing with my point will resort to calling names quickly, with or without the explicit intent to shut the thread down. Likewise, people agreeing to my point might resort to flaming themselves.

I would like to hear both sides, but in a civil manner.



My gripes with the Codex: Space Wolves 5th edition

At first the biased view of a 40K player:
This is the most unbalanced, untested, mary-sued codex there is and *hopefully* was.
All the īdexes that came out in the last months had something that made you stop and think. Are Vendettas really not too cheap? Didnīt they forget to add 50pts to Vulkan? Did any playtester really build a tricked out Nob Biker mob?
But all in all the codexes were solid. Good upgrades to their predecessors, with some powerbuilds that we came to expect of shoddy GW codex desing. Nothing a reasonable group canīt handle.

Come October and the Wolves.

I fully expected flexible units that are good in hand-to-hand combat and shortrange firefights. But I also expected them to pay the points for that.
40k army lists are about balance. You expect your 1500points army to perform *roughly the same* as another army with the same points, in the hands of a similarly skillfull general. Of cause this can never be 100% true, but does it have to be GLARING?


1.) Wolf (sorry) Grey Hunters for 15points apiece.
A Tacitcal Marine costs 16points.
The Grey Hunter has special rules on top of that, including "Counter Charge" that is tailor-made for a unit thatīs Rhino-mounted and drives up close and fires its guns. ALSO, they get up to two special weapons for free (if one is a flamer)! Free.
This gets me to their ability to take two special weapons. This is absolutely AWESOME and should be worth at least *some* points. The "disability" to take a Heavy Weapon (boo-hoo!) becomes a fat advantage. Nice job. It gets worse if you include the (for loyalists) mandatory Veteran Sergeant. They pay roughly 30points for that model. Space Wolves pay 18points, because thatīs the price for a Wolf Guard before upgrades.
All in all the best troop (screw that, say: UNIT) in 40k. While not paying the points for it, compared to almost similar units in other armies.


2.) Wolf Guard:
Seriously. 18points. Please compare to price of naked Vanguard, Honour Guard, etc.
With the best tailoring options in all army lists (this alone being not too OP) and being able to be assinged to almost all units in the codex.
Those could easily be 10points more and still be worth it.


3.) Long Fangs:
They pay Tactical prices for their heavy weapons. People defending this will say: "But they donīt have ablative wounds, each casualty will be expensive!"
This doesnīt add up.
First, they get a superior fire-splitting rule. Second, regular marinesī weapons donīt get cheaper if you donīt buy ablative wounds.
Hey but they CAN , right? Thanks for walking into my little trap: why then are Wolf Guard not much more expensive? They have the OPTION to upgrade to hell and back.


4.) Wolf Claws:
Since when are wolves renowned for their slashy claws? Fangs, yes ...
"Mary Sue me some wargear".


5.) Thunderwolf Riders:
I have massive problems with those.
Many players dont. But ask yourself: if you dont have problems with them, but they make 2 out of 10 players lose their ****, in a games system that has space elves who dance around in polka dot jumpsuits and shoot killy wire,maybe there might be something a little wrong with them?
Oh and Iīm not even talking about a model with cavalry movement that gets a load of attacks and has TRUE toughness of 5 (why is that? because the wolf is going to wield the powerfist if the marine riding it is being pulverised by a Melta?)

Also, this is the most obvious "screw you" from GW that I ever saw: they donīt even produce a regular model for the unit. They produce an accordingly priced Character! Yes, yes, many will use counts-as to use other models, but GW aims at the little kids with big-purse parents! They will buy the **** out of Canis to make units.


6.) Wolf Guard Terminators canīt teleport:
I was actually laughing and crying when I read that. No they canīt. Fat disadvantage, huh?
So, to make up for that a little, they get Drop Pods.
Let that sink in.
An option every other Marine chapter would pay their left hand to get is concealed as a disadvantage.


7.) Space Wolves Psychic Powers:
īnuff said ...
They went from "We hate the witch " to "Farseer, come here and say that again!"
Lash of Submission is abusable.
Jaws Of The World Wolf (BUY MORE TRANSPORTS, SUCKERS!) and Murderous Hurricane (weīll give them something that helps against opponents that want to get close and opponents that want to run away!) arenīt abusable, their intended use is devastating against some armies. Njalīs "Lord of Everything" isnīt even a psychic power and is potentially as powerful as Lash at first glance!


Those are my major gripes.
That is even discouting the "wolf in front of everyting" policy, that shows how imaginative the codex designer was. "Canis Wolfborn", that name alone makes one cringe, ... even my toenails curl ...

As said, Iīm a customer of GWīs products, I feel I have to bring this up.
I didnīt feel it for the last codex releases.
I fear, FEAR what will become of my beloved Blood Angels, if theyīre really up next after the Tyranids. I donīt want to feel cheap for winning a game. I donīt even want to think that my opponent could have bought that additional Landspeeder that could have won him the game, if only the units were costed appropirately.

I feel the Codex: Space Wolves was a major ass-pull or a result of executive meddling. In the short time since release weīve had a load of threads where Marines, Chaos Marines, Squats, Orks were proposing to use that for their army list (though Iīm waiting for the first Eldar to do so).

When you have rules for some game system, and everyone prefers one rule over the others, itīs a sure sign that it is imbalanced.

I agree. Also, don't forget that Space Wolves can get up to 4 HQ, unlike any other army in the entire game, because ummm... because they like characters?

Vepr
12-10-2009, 04:30
I have not played enough games against them to say they are overpowered but the new wolves are no joke that is for sure especially against the armies that don't have a 5th edition dex yet.

ntin
12-10-2009, 04:32
I agree. Also, don't forget that Space Wolves can get up to 4 HQ, unlike any other army in the entire game, because ummm... because they like characters?

Herald of Nurgle looks at the Herald of Khorne who looks at the Herald of Slaanesh who looks at the Herald of Tzeentch.

TheDarkDuke
12-10-2009, 04:38
Ps. I'm sorry for the GIANT wall of text and I doubt I'll get many readers because of it, but these threads are dangerous! Impressionable people read these forums and when they see people complain so rampantly about a book it has a tendency to make them believe this hogwash!

This is what I think every time I read one of these types of threads. No matter how well thought out they may appear, there are always huge flaws. Yet we gain even 2 more "this is broken" threads from other users cause user "x" said. What makes me always roll my eyes is how every army released is broken less then a week into its release 40k or fantasy. I simply wonder how one manages to play all the possible combinations of the "new" codex vrs all other codex possibilities so quickly.

druchii, well put and I support every word you have typed in your post... wall of text or not!;)

Bunnahabhain
12-10-2009, 04:44
Herald of Nurgle looks at the Herald of Khorne who looks at the Herald of Slaanesh who looks at the Herald of Tzeentch.

5 separate priests look at the space where the mythical non-rubbish 2 techpreists should be looking at 2 command squads, of up to 10 men each...

Mánagarmr
12-10-2009, 04:44
these threads are dangerous! Impressionable people read these forums and when they see people complain so rampantly about a book it has a tendency to make them believe this hogwash!

Quoted for truth.

LKHERO
12-10-2009, 04:46
I'm sorry, but I disagree with the original post.

I find the Tactical Marine vs. GH argument kind of moot. Sure, they can take two special weapons, but Tactical Marines can take Heavies. Tacticals are good at all ranges whereas Grey Hunters are most effective up close. Counter-attack is good, but so is the ability to fire a Plasma Cannon from max distance from a cross-board control point.

For the entire transport system, I see that Space Wolves can take Terminators in their Drop Pods. That's great and all, but Space Marine Drop Pods can hold a full Sternguard unit and their HQs, something that Space Wolves cannot do. Not to mention vanilla players can take Ironclads.. something I wished Space Wolves have.

The only big difference that I see is Long Fangs vs. Devastators. No matter how I look at it, I have to admit that Long Fangs are just better Devastators. Signum doesn't really matter that much but the split-fire ability and 5 Heavy Weapons is godsend.

I'll sum up what I think here:

SW HQs are decently priced. They are truly worth the points you pay for.
SM HQs are more cost effective for what they can do. Kantor, He'stan, Captains come to mind.
Of course, Rune Priests and Wolf Priests are better than the Librarians and Chaplains, so that balances it out for me.

Troop wise, like I said, Tacticals and Grey Hunters are both good; just used differently.

Fast Attack, I think they're pretty much even.

Elite, I think they're both even - Ironclads and Sternguard vs. Wolf Guard and erm.. more Wolf Guard.

Heavy. I think Long Fangs have the advantage here.

Transports; pretty even. Terminators in Drop Pods is good, but so is 10 Sternguard + HQ, or Deep Striking special units.

----

For now, I like to call both armies pretty balanced. I'm very happy with both.

Jackbooted Pug
12-10-2009, 04:47
As far as it not being much different than the vanilla dex i disagree. I can run 3 tac squads with PF, ML and melta in rhino's, a 10 man assault squad with a PF, a 5 man terminator squad with AC, a dread with AC and HF, a Pred destructor with EA and a chaplain with a JP for 1,500 points. The space wolf equivalent with GH's having 2 meltas and a PF in rhinos and everything else being equal will run 1,435 points. I know its only 65 points, but that combined with GH's being much better in CC, Blood claw JP have more attacks than Assault squads, chaplains and Dreads being equal and Space wolf terminators having counter-attack and all they lost is the ability to use a free ML and gained the option of a free 2nd melta, not a loss and not worth 35 points. They can get the same things as Vanilla for a cheaper cost and a better special rule, counter attack, than they lost, combat tactics.

Hmmm, comes to 1600 points for DA, so a 165 point different between those two codices :p

I wonder if this codex creep only really exists between marine books. Maybe the evil (and brilliant you could say) GW has realized they just need to keep outdoing marine books with other marine books to keep sales going.

Gutlord Grom
12-10-2009, 04:48
I agree. Also, don't forget that Space Wolves can get up to 4 HQ, unlike any other army in the entire game, because ummm... because they like characters?

That was rule in the last Wolf Codex, and it wasn't that much of a bother.

LKHERO
12-10-2009, 04:52
I don't know what's everyone's fascination that 4 HQs is a good thing.

Whoever takes 4 HQs in a 1750 (or god forbid 1500) list needs to rethink their gameplan and where his points are going.

Light of the Emperor
12-10-2009, 04:55
I've seen the wolves win and I've seen them lose. There are already strategies on how they can win games and how opponents can beat them. Its nothing new in the world of 40K.

If you have a sound list and actually apply some strategy, the Wolves can fall. That being said, its time to mount up the Ravenwing... Chapter honor is at stake!

Cognitave
12-10-2009, 05:10
I don't know what's everyone's fascination that 4 HQs is a good thing.

Whoever takes 4 HQs in a 1750 (or god forbid 1500) list needs to rethink their gameplan and where his points are going.

This. You shouldn't spend 500+ points on HQ. It's gimmick-y at best.


@ OP.
I'm gonna get a Flaming infraction for this post, so I'm not even gonna pretend to be nice about it.

1.) No heavies. No sergeant without using up an elite choice. If you DO use a sergeant, you can't get the free special weapon and use a Rhino as a transport. Seems pretty fair.

2.) What? Are you just stupid or something? Our sergeants and terminators come from the same squad! So that means we're limited on the number of dreadnoughts, wolf scouts (ours are elites, mind you), dreadnoughts, and lone wolves we can mix and match. Termicide? Barely.

3.) They've had fire-splitting forever. Way to make yourself look like a derp talking about some "trap". Admiral Ackbar is disappointed in you.

4.) Wolves. Claws. You'd think with their obsession, they'd know how to use and make claws. You're forgetting that our Iron Priests are not the same as techmarines and only fulfill the same role in the game.

5.) They're called conversions, you whiny snot. Did you cry this much when they released Vulkans? I don't mind Thunderwolves that much, though the idea of marines riding beasts irks me a bit...

6.) That means units larger than 5 have to foot slog. Oh, and if you want to include a character in terminator armor, they can't have heavy weapons.

7.) You're still on the rag about this? God, have you had your head up your butt for the past two weeks or so?



To summarize this, OP, NUT UP OR SHUT UP.

Vaktathi
12-10-2009, 05:13
I find the Tactical Marine vs. GH argument kind of moot. Sure, they can take two special weapons, but Tactical Marines can take Heavies. Tacticals are good at all ranges whereas Grey Hunters are most effective up close. Counter-attack is good, but so is the ability to fire a Plasma Cannon from max distance from a cross-board control point.


This comes up a lot, but with BP/CCW and the option for two specials, even if they did have HW's available, the vast majority of players wouldn't take them. Most CSM players don't. One or two lost heavy weapons with a far greater CC capability and greater mobile firepower will outweigh that. Not to mention they pay practically nothing (or actually nothing) for those special weapons.

TL: DR Nobody would give Grey Hunters heavy weapons even if they could take them, so the point is moot.

Vepr
12-10-2009, 05:24
I don't know what's everyone's fascination that 4 HQs is a good thing.

Whoever takes 4 HQs in a 1750 (or god forbid 1500) list needs to rethink their gameplan and where his points are going.

I would love to have 4 hive tyrants at 1750 or 1500. :p

Shiodome
12-10-2009, 05:28
myself i'm just (very) unkeen on making space wolves the most psychic of the marine lists (or possibly of all lists?). that's really dissapointing tbh, i loved that part of the background but now all their history regarding prospero and the thousand sons just looks stupid. :(

that and marines on wolves. christ.

Vepr
12-10-2009, 05:36
The psychic power thing was a bit of a head scratcher fluff wise. I figured on them having pretty powerful anti-psychic stuff but not also kick butt kung-fu mind powers to go with them. In the end it is not that big of a deal though, just kind of a fluff infraction which happens all over the place.

Space wolves on wolves is pretty lame. The wulfen on giant wolves that formed up into a giant mecha wolf was probably just barely shot down due to power rangers copywrite concerns. :p

Deadmanwade
12-10-2009, 05:39
Do you think warseer could put up some templates for people who want to start these posts? It would save a lot of time whenever a new codex comes out.

Title
______ is BROKEN!!!

Message
______ is too cheap
______ is too powerful
My _____ unit from my ______ codex doesnt get special rule ______!!!
______ doesnt match my idea of the fluff.



Personally I play Dark Angels, Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Space Wolves and Tyranids so I have had to sit through this same pointless whining SOOO many times and I'm expecting to do so again come the new year.

Here's something everyone may want to consider:

It doesnt matter how much you complain on the internet, the codexes wont change until GW republishes them and they aren't going to read YOUR posts before they do it.

If you think a new dex is too powerful then dont play any opponents using it. If you end up facing one in a tournament you can always just concede the game. Seriously, nobody will think any less of you (well, maybe they will). Nobody is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to play the game, so if you dont like SW just go and find a DA player to play your nob biker/lash spam army against.

Vepr
12-10-2009, 05:48
It would not be the internet without complaining. ;) Plus there is nothing wrong with venting done properly, the OP laid it out fairly well whether you agree or disagree with him or her (assuming him). Interesting side question, I wonder if everyone would treat threads like this differently if they knew the OP was in fact a female? :) Anyways....

These threads are also always fairly entertaining because there ends up being whining and complaining... about whining and complaining... to go with the general whining and complaining. :D

The Custodian
12-10-2009, 05:49
To summarize this, OP, NUT UP OR SHUT UP.

That good sir put a smile on my face :D

Anywho lets see, am I worried about wolves? Yes... But mainly because I have yet to face them. I suppose its a fear of the unknown more than anything. And these threads are not helping it. Im more than aware wolves are not OP. Heck when it all boils down they are all marines... Throw enough shooting thier way and they fall like flies.

Should I be afraid? Probably. I play nids with a tendency to play a tad bit on the MC heavy side. So yes Jaws is a worry of sorts. But I can handle it. Im pretty sure a Screamer list coupled with the shadow will make casting powers a living hell. Try to cast your power now with -4 LD on a 3d6!

The wolves are a new thing and like always many people have a knee jerk reaction to thier abilities. Im fully expecting to see threads like "ZOMG DE NIDS ARE OVERPOWERED!" and "BLOOD ANGELS MADE ME PREGNANT" to be appearing in a years time and everyone will have completely forgotten about the wolves.

Cognitave
12-10-2009, 05:54
The wolves are a new thing and like always many people have a knee jerk reaction to thier abilities. Im fully expecting to see threads like "ZOMG DE NIDS ARE OVERPOWERED!" and "BLOOD ANGELS MADE ME PREGNANT" to be appearing in a years time and everyone will have completely forgotten about the wolves.

I lol'd

The wording is a bit unclear about Rune Priest powers though.

"To represent this, no two characters may bear the same saga, nor may they bear the same psychic powers or wargear combination".

I believe, RAW/RAI, you can only ever have 1 Rune Priest with JOTWW in your army.

Lion El Jason
12-10-2009, 05:56
I don't think they are overpowered.

I do think Marines riding wolves should have been caught by someone at GW before the book was released. I think they are at least embarrassed enough about the unit enough not to make models and then they can just not include them in the next codex but there's not much we can do about 12 year olds using biker bodies on goblin wolves until then...

Vepr
12-10-2009, 05:58
That good sir put a smile on my face :D

Anywho lets see, am I worried about wolves? Yes... But mainly because I have yet to face them. I suppose its a fear of the unknown more than anything. And these threads are not helping it. Im more than aware wolves are not OP. Heck when it all boils down they are all marines... Throw enough shooting thier way and they fall like flies.

Should I be afraid? Probably. I play nids with a tendency to play a tad bit on the MC heavy side. So yes Jaws is a worry of sorts. But I can handle it. Im pretty sure a Screamer list coupled with the shadow will make casting powers a living hell. Try to cast your power now with -4 LD on a 3d6!

The wolves are a new thing and like always many people have a knee jerk reaction to thier abilities. Im fully expecting to see threads like "ZOMG DE NIDS ARE OVERPOWERED!" and "BLOOD ANGELS MADE ME PREGNANT" to be appearing in a years time and everyone will have completely forgotten about the wolves.

I run a fairly balanced nid list that is more horde oriented (only 1 MC per 500 points) I know it handicaps me but it is what I enjoy running. Anyways I only played two smaller games against wolves. Jaws was a worry and I lost fex one game and a fex and tyrant guard the next but a few things caught me off guard and seemed worse. Like dangerous terrain tests for my stealers (not good) and how much better wolves are at CC or at least it appeared that way. I am used to gaunts and gants disappearing like a fart in the wind but wolves make it happen on fast forward. :p

Vepr
12-10-2009, 06:03
I lol'd

The wording is a bit unclear about Rune Priest powers though.

"To represent this, no two characters may bear the same saga, nor may they bear the same psychic powers or wargear combination".

I believe, RAW/RAI, you can only ever have 1 Rune Priest with JOTWW in your army.

Local shop decided that it was same combination of powers at least until a FAQ came out. The guy I played ran two rune priests one with living lightning and jaws and the other with hurricane and jaws. Not overpowered but definitely made me sweat deployment and movement more than normal each game.

Zingbaby
12-10-2009, 06:10
With every new codex we get these point to point analysis outrages, followed by the end of world, sky is falling - this codex is the new 'creap' jive. ...with - every - new - codex, since the dawn of 40k.

While your arguments might be mathematically sound and well thought out - it still is whining, at least this early in the game. How many games have you actually played against this codex?

Give it a year and see how it matches up against the other armies, and then like - every - new - codex ...you'll eventually find that barring a few annoying new rules, it's really not a big deal. We've been through this before, relax, it will be ok.

LKHERO
12-10-2009, 06:21
lol, wait until you see the new Nids dex or the BA one.

Shibboleth
12-10-2009, 06:40
These threads are also always fairly entertaining because there ends up being whining and complaining... about whining and complaining... to go with the general whining and complaining. :Dlol.
In that spirit I'd like to whine about the complainers in a new way.
When the Chaos codex came out there was so much 'Gav sux' this, 'Gav sux' that going on about it (even though he was only co-author he still cops the brunt of the hate), yet so far I haven't heard any of the new SW-haters calling out Phil Kelly by name.
Is he too popular to be criticised even when he's '****ed up'?
(Nothing against him, or the SW 'dex, personally, just pointing out an inconsistency...)

Amnar
12-10-2009, 07:11
Most people, myself included, when we complained about the Chaos dex were complaining about the lack of options.

Now, even though I think SW get too many freebies, I'm envious of their level of customization.

Honestly, aside from the low points values for GH and LF, I think the book is about right, with lots of options. Doesn't help that their GH and WG Termie kits are amazing and full of great options for everything you need. Definately a lot of Codex envy here.

Eulenspiegel
12-10-2009, 07:21
Thanks for the mostly civil replies.

@ the guys who tell me to "man up":

Yes, thanks. I want to be all manly and macho about a wargame. I stand behind the table and feel my breasthair growing just from facing Space Wolves. My think I feel my sperm count doubling.
No wait, I actually want good rules! I donīt want to have to suck it down that another army gets a headstart.
"Man up" is actually one of the more childish things to say, and itīs something to shut others down when youīre out of arguments.
Like "whining" - please give me your phone numbers, customers like you who take everything without criticism should be rare. I actually have some real estate on the moon for sale, real cheap!
"Damn waiter spit in my soup!" "Stop whining you little crybaby, man up and eat up! You wonīt even taste it!"

Honestly, getting a shot of testosterone from playing a game ... sheeesh ... :cool:


Sure, Wolves can be beaten. I never said they could not, did I? Still, why do I have to sit and take it when some army gets clearly superior rules, aka a headstart? I donīt want to race an uphill battle (the missions do that well enough, it should not be built-in).

Codex creep was always there, but it was mostly some power-builds, some ill-conceived options - until today. Never before has this been an entire codex. This is all the more glaring because the SW codex is so easily comparable with the regular marine īdex. They have similar options, mostly only renamed, and you could build an army that plays almost the same as Wolves with the Marine codex.
So SWs and other marines are comparable.

Bunnahabhain
12-10-2009, 07:26
There is one test.

We've now seen the codex properly, down to the stage of arguing of s's and placement of commas.

Are there any units in there which just jump out at people as being considerably worse than the rest of the codex? Not arguably worse, but something that just screams 'RUBBISH!' at you the moment you look at it.

All the 5th ed codexs have had them, I'll just give the best examples.
Flashgits
Vanguard, Legion of the damned
Ogryns, LR punisher

If the wolf codex has one of these, I've not heard about it yet. I have heard alot about it's really really good troops choices. That, to my mind, puts it on a par with the Ork book as a minimum.

Gerwulf
12-10-2009, 07:30
Codex creep was always there, but it was mostly some power-builds, some ill-conceived options - until today. Never before has this been an entire codex. This is all the more glaring because the SW codex is so easily comparable with the regular marine īdex. They have similar options, mostly only renamed, and you could build an army that plays almost the same as Wolves with the Marine codex.
So SWs and other marines are comparable.

Yes, they are comparable. But please compare them in their entirety and not only by picking the very best aspects of the SW codex and the worst aspects of the SM codex. ;)

There are dozens of good posts in this and other threads comparing the two codices in a more objective way. :)

Cognitave
12-10-2009, 07:49
Sure, Wolves can be beaten. I never said they could not, did I? Still, why do I have to sit and take it when some army gets clearly superior rules, aka a headstart? I donīt want to race an uphill battle (the missions do that well enough, it should not be built-in).


Because you play GW's game, and their codex release schedule says you do. Why did I have to play for 9 years with the SW dex when Chaos and Guard were getting updated so much?

And by "Man Up" we mean "Show some composure and stop whining. Honestly, you're acting like a child here. Instead, why don't you do something about it?" But since you know how to master Space Wolves, does that make you a troll? :angel: But seriously, cry more. It'll get so much done.

@Bunnahabhain...

Scouts. With snipers, they're more than tactical marines. The outflank they get can go well, or completely wrong.

Terminators may be 33 points, but that's without a power fist and they have to spend 7 points each (the cost of a drop pod divided up) for deepstrike. TH/SS is 35 points total, which is effectively another terminator...

But wait. The sub-par units will float to the surface.

The Custodian
12-10-2009, 07:58
I dunno, Canis seems rather sub par unless you pair him up with a wolf lord... Ld8? And woopie he makes wolves troops, to bad they can NEVER score :rolleyes:. ONly thing he has going for him is the rules that gives him extra attacks. But whats his cost? ;)

Eulenspiegel
12-10-2009, 08:07
I never would accuse Canis of being overpowered, but rather I find the entire concept ridiculous. Thatīs subjective, though.

Cognitave, yes I play GWs game, and I buy their expensive products. If that doesnīt give me the right to "whine", what does?


PS (edit):
Before someone takes the cheap shot and jumps at my use of "whine". I think that as a paying customer it is my right to complain if I feel Iīve been handed a sub-par product. Here the "product" isnīt so much the Codex itself, it is its impact on the entire game. A game I have spent thousands of Euros (and Deutschmarks) on, so I canīt just pull out and play something else. I want THIS game to be good. To be good it needs to be balanced.

MistaGav
12-10-2009, 08:13
Will 40k players every be happy for anything GW gives them...NO!

It's either too overpriced in points or actual money, it looks horrible, it's cheesy, it's unfluffy, it's overpowered, it's underpowered, it's this or frickin that!
What about Dark Eldar/Daemonhunters/Witch Hunters/Blood Angels/Dark Angels/other old army?!

Will there ever be a thread where none of this is mentioned and someone will say 'ye know what X unit is actually quite right. Good cost, good rules, good models, Fluffy, Not cheesy at all...NO IT WON'T!
How many frickin times will these arguements persist of people complaining and complaining and complaining about X Codex not living up to Y's standards
/end of pointless rant

The Custodian
12-10-2009, 08:14
@OP/Eulenspiegel

Yes you do have a right to complain. But why here? GW could care less about what someone says on a forum. But apparently they do care if people take the time to write them an Email or letter (they especially like hand written letters apparently).

If you want to whine do it to GW itself, not an unaffiliated forum that GW would not give a second glance.

Badger[Fr]
12-10-2009, 09:47
Isn't it too early to claim that the Space Wolves will "break the game"? Yes, several SW units outperform their Vanilla equivalents. Though, it is hardly impressive, as it only highlights how weak Space Marine Captains, Assault Veterans, Devastators, Honour Guards, Terminators and Tactical Marines are. Seriously, I have yet to see one of these units (except Tactical Marines, of course) in a competitive game. If anything, Matt Ward's mediocre design decisions are to blame.


1.) Wolf (sorry) Grey Hunters for 15points apiece.
A Tacitcal Marine costs 16points.
The Grey Hunter has special rules on top of that, including "Counter Charge" that is tailor-made for a unit thatīs Rhino-mounted and drives up close and fires its guns. ALSO, they get up to two special weapons for free (if one is a flamer)! Free.
This gets me to their ability to take two special weapons. This is absolutely AWESOME and should be worth at least *some* points. The "disability" to take a Heavy Weapon (boo-hoo!) becomes a fat advantage. Nice job. It gets worse if you include the (for loyalists) mandatory Veteran Sergeant. They pay roughly 30points for that model. Space Wolves pay 18points, because thatīs the price for a Wolf Guard before upgrades.
All in all the best troop (screw that, say: UNIT) in 40k. While not paying the points for it, compared to almost similar units in other armies.
Indeed, Grey Hunters are grossly underpriced. Though, so are Ork Boyz, Fire Dragons, or Assault Terminators, and yet, 40k is still somehow balanced. A good, underpriced unit won't win games on its own.



# 6.) Wolf Guard Terminators canīt teleport:
I was actually laughing and crying when I read that. No they canīt. Fat disadvantage, huh?
So, to make up for that a little, they get Drop Pods.
Let that sink in.
An option every other Marine chapter would pay their left hand to get is concealed as a disadvantage.

Yeah, I forgot that Drop Pods are free and never grant a KP. Seriously, a 5-man unit of WG Terminators in a Drop Pod is as expensive as a Vanilla Terminator squad (and everybody knows how OMFG BROKEN these are), yet lacks the Powerfists. I'd rather have Chaos Terminators: they are cheaper and can teleport regardless of the squad size. Of course, I won't mention Stormshields and the grossly underpriced Vanilla Assault Terminators here...


wolf claws: like lightning claws only better
And 5 points more expensive for a dubious advantage...


assault troops: like everybody elses only better
Yeah, WS 3 Jump Troops and horribly expensive Terminators compared to their Vanilla Assault counterparts. Grey Hunters are decent in CC, but are still no match for an Ork mob or Khorne Berzerkers.


marine on a bike: T4 (5) marine on a wolf T5? yeah that sounds right
A Marine on a Bike costs 25 points. A Marine on a Wolf, 50 points. Thunderwolves are already expensive enough as they are, should they be vulnerable to S8 weapons, they would be worthless.

Such a thread was to be expected, though. Remember how the Ork and the Imperial Guard would make the whole game pointless? The SW book is strong, probably stronger than the Vanilla one, but is it the be-all and end-all of 40k?

Thud
12-10-2009, 09:56
I'll start off by saying:
The term "may sue" should really be removed from one's lexicon of usage. It really is NOT an argument for anything. It's conjecture of the highest form, essentially putting whine on ice. Dressing it up a bit.

Thank heavens someone brought this up! :)

I also agree with the rest of druchii's post. I don't really see any problem with the new SW codex, they seem balanced enough.

grissom2006
12-10-2009, 10:01
Well yes some of the things brought up are understandable and valid.

Lets not forget the fact that SW GH are not the only SM units that can get free weapons. After all SM Tactical can get a Free: Missile Launcher, Heavy Bolter or Multi-Melta and a Flamer, so SW hardly gained in this respect.

Karhedron
12-10-2009, 10:06
Are there any units in there which just jump out at people as being considerably worse than the rest of the codex? Not arguably worse, but something that just screams 'RUBBISH!' at you the moment you look at it.
I can't think of anything that I looked at and thought "I will never use that in a million years". The inability of Skyclaws to take a WG is a pain but I figure if I want a unit badly enough in a game I will just cough up the points for an IC to lead them.

A dedcicated CC unit of WG terminators costs vastly more than nilla equivelents for no obvious extra benefits. Sure PW/SB Termies cost 33 points which is a bargain but a TH/SS termie is just a ridiculous cost. So there are options I will probably never use although not units.

Are wolves broken? My instincts suggest not. Every time a codex comes out we get screams of cheese. 6 months later everyone has calmed down and moved on. If wolves are topping the GTs in 6-12 months time then that might be a clue as to brokenness. At the moment they seem strong and flexible but nothing other armies cannot cope with.

Hunters still die to pie plates, Banshees and plasma. SW psychic powers can be restricted by Hoods, Runes of Warding etc. Wolfscouts can be countered by not loitering too close to a board edge and keeping a heavy bolter or two handy. A build tat will work against Nilla Marines will probably work pretty well against Puppies too.

senso
12-10-2009, 10:27
@ the OP

If you're looking for a game which is balanced and has been well thought out, then you should stop playing all GW games and save yourself time and, most importantly, money.

grg3d
12-10-2009, 10:53
"Codex Creep"

Thank God My Necrons will finally kick ass :D

The only thing I've got to say about the Space Wolfs is...

They could have modeled the wolfs with cyber implants to make them look 40kish...

maybe even given them wheels for the kids :eek:

Imperialis_Dominatus
12-10-2009, 11:14
You know, I started out sort of agreeing with the OP but you people have totally sapped my will to care. Seriously, any thread where a poster has the gall to say "I know I'll get a flaming warning for this but I don't care" is a horrifying thread that is the cancer that is killing Warseer.

I will say this though: just because Codex creep has happened in the past is no reason to accept it.

Badger[Fr]
12-10-2009, 11:23
I will say this though: just because Codex creep has happened in the past is no reason to accept it.
There is however a huge difference between a broken army that utterly dominate the game, like WFB Daemons, and a new shiny book that has yet to prove its game-breaking abilities, like the current SW Codex. People currently focus on the most powerful units (Rune Priests and Grey Hunters), but fail to consider the army as a whole.

Master Jeridian
12-10-2009, 11:32
If you're looking for a game which is balanced and has been well thought out, then you should stop playing all GW games and save yourself time and, most importantly, money.

Not entirely true, GW produces balanced games...they just don't support them.

40k has had Codex Creep since the dawn of time, it sells models to bandwagonners. It's a wargaming arms race with your wallet- be the first to 'catch em all' in the new Codex.

Motives swing between the malicious to the incompetent. Some things are clearly boosted as they are brand new models/units, to sell them, some other things (like wargear items in multiple Codex's with various different rules) just seem like sloppy testing.
The Terminators Storm Shield combo being more expensive after the SM Codex proved how hard they where is no surprise here.

40k has been around for decades, but it seems the designers can't look beyond the previous released Codex for experience and balance.

Space Wolves in particular have always been Marines++, their 3rd Ed pamphlet blew the 3rd Ed Marine Codex out of the water. 3rd Ed Marines had 2 Special Rules (one being a special Drop Pod mission), Space Wolves had a whole page full.
Everything Marines could do, Space Wolves added a Special Rule to do better.
Admittedly this was the same for the BA and DA supplements...3rd Ed was the true age of Codex Creep.

Sadly GW has no intention of balancing 40k or ending Codex Creep, they're a model company not a games company now...despite the name.

Tringsh
12-10-2009, 11:39
I played a 750pt game at the weekend against orks and it weren’t no picnic. Infact I lost.

Badger[Fr]
12-10-2009, 11:45
I played a 750pt game at the weekend against orks and it weren’t no picnic. Infact I lost.
Liar! You know that only the most recent armies are allowed to win, do you? Orks, being almost 2 years old, should have lost, because of Codex Creep! Not to mention Witch Hunters or Dark Eldars: playing with these armies is an auto-loss.

Reesraw
12-10-2009, 12:12
This is the first SW whine thread I've seen so far. You know why? There isn't much to whine about.

1.(Grey Hunters) They are cheap but lack the sergeant. Add a sergeant and loose the second special weapon if mounted in a rhino.

2.(Wolf Guard) You complain about Wolf Guard? Are you serious? Compare their price with TH/SS Terminators.

3.(Long Fangs) Devastors are too expensive in the vanilla dex. Long Fangs are not unbalanced because they're appropriately priced.

Tringsh
12-10-2009, 12:17
;4030588']Liar! You know that only the most recent armies are allowed to win, do you? Orks, being almost 2 years old, should have lost, because of Codex Creep! Not to mention Witch Hunters or Dark Eldars: playing with these armies is an auto-loss.

OK OK you caught me. :p

Eulenspiegel
12-10-2009, 12:38
;4030550'](...) utterly dominate the game (...)

Ok Space Wolves will not utterly dominate the game, I never said that. I brought up some points where it was obvious that their stuff is superior to regular Marine units/wargear/rules without suffering an appropriate disadvantage. Thatīs what they have: advantages without any disadvantages. Itīs not going to break the game, but it is extremly annoying.

No Wolf Guard in Rhino-mounted 10-man squads:
Since this came up quite a bit Iīll answer it: Then donīt take a second special weapon! You still have a unit that is both cheaper than Tacticals (base points, free Sergeant) while outperforming them (counter-charge, sergeant options) with no drawbacks. No, not being able to take a heavy weapon isnīt a drawback if you donīt intend to use them anyway.
I donīt use Scout Bikers with my Marines. So if I swear to never use them, should I get free upgrades for Attack Bikes because Iīm limiting myself oh so much? Or is that actually feigning a "weakness" to get more stuff?

As for my use of the term "mary-sue":
Yes, Iīm aware itīs not 100% correct, but reading the Codex I got the feeling that someone wrote themselves an army, losing every bit of perspective along the way ("... AND cheaper troops, AND better wargear, AND RIDING WOLVES! *gibber*"). This can be compared to fanfic writers who "accidently" write an idealised version of themselves into a story.

Long_Fang
12-10-2009, 12:38
I'm just glad we finally got our codex, after a long 10 year wait. None of your complaining will ever take it away! YEEEEEEEEYYYYYYYYYYYYY

Badger[Fr]
12-10-2009, 13:10
Ok Space Wolves will not utterly dominate the game, I never said that. I brought up some points where it was obvious that their stuff is superior to regular Marine units/wargear/rules without suffering an appropriate disadvantage.
I forgot how Vanilla Marines were supposed to be the be-all and end-all of 40k. Several SW units are superior to their Vanilla equivalents, but the reverse is true as well. Vanilla Terminators, Bikes, Assault Marines, Chaplains, and several SC with army-wide special rules are by far superior to their SW counterparts, without, as you wrote, suffering an appropriate disadvantage. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, isn't it?


Thatīs what they have: advantages without any disadvantages.
Shenaningans. Space Wolves have plenty of disadvantages that your one-sided, flawed account of the SW Codex failed to mention. A situational comparison between a handful of units that obviously favoured the Space Wolves is hardly relevant.


No, not being able to take a heavy weapon isnīt a drawback if you donīt intend to use them anyway.
How is the unability to field a free heavy weapon not a drawback?

Fenrir
12-10-2009, 13:21
Ok Space Wolves will not utterly dominate the game, I never said that. I brought up some points where it was obvious that their stuff is superior to regular Marine units/wargear/rules without suffering an appropriate disadvantage. Thatīs what they have: advantages without any disadvantages. Itīs not going to break the game, but it is extremly annoying.

No Wolf Guard in Rhino-mounted 10-man squads:
Since this came up quite a bit Iīll answer it: Then donīt take a second special weapon! You still have a unit that is both cheaper than Tacticals (base points, free Sergeant) while outperforming them (counter-charge, sergeant options) with no drawbacks. No, not being able to take a heavy weapon isnīt a drawback if you donīt intend to use them anyway.
I donīt use Scout Bikers with my Marines. So if I swear to never use them, should I get free upgrades for Attack Bikes because Iīm limiting myself oh so much? Or is that actually feigning a "weakness" to get more stuff?

As for my use of the term "mary-sue":
Yes, Iīm aware itīs not 100% correct, but reading the Codex I got the feeling that someone wrote themselves an army, losing every bit of perspective along the way ("... AND cheaper troops, AND better wargear, AND RIDING WOLVES! *gibber*"). This can be compared to fanfic writers who "accidently" write an idealised version of themselves into a story.


Yes, well.

What are you going to do? Complain on the web for the next ten years until the book is updated?

Man up - the book is here, it's good and it's done. Other armies will be released and have people sobbing into thier martinis about the "power level", you can change the tune to a different army then.

Fixer
12-10-2009, 13:38
My biggest complaint about the Space Wolves codex is that it appears to be a 'balance fixed' version of Codex: Space Marines with more variety and options.

Much the same way as C:BA was an improved version of C:DA and C:SM was an improvement of that.

It occurs to me more and more that Games Workshop's release method for Codex and rules changes is vastly outdated. In addition from what we know of how the rules are written that not much effort is made for playtesting them.

It would not be hard to have a person or two write up a 'tournament edition' of codex rules and have them updated once every quarter to the latest standards which subscribers could download in .pdf format while keeping the main codex still available and valid for friendly play.

Hell, give me two weeks, a crate full of real ale and an unlimited supply of peri-peri chicken. I'll bust out a balanced selection of rules where everything useless is made useful, where the overpowered are balanced and the old codeces are updated with the 'bug fixed wargear and rules' of the newer variants.

grissom2006
12-10-2009, 13:46
[QUOTE=Eulenspiegel;4030672]Ok Space Wolves will not utterly dominate the game, I never said that. I brought up some points where it was obvious that their stuff is superior to regular Marine units/wargear/rules without suffering an appropriate disadvantage. Thatīs what they have: advantages without any disadvantages. Itīs not going to break the game, but it is extremly annoying.

No Wolf Guard in Rhino-mounted 10-man squads:
Since this came up quite a bit Iīll answer it: Then donīt take a second special weapon! You still have a unit that is both cheaper than Tacticals (base points, free Sergeant) while outperforming them (counter-charge, sergeant options) with no drawbacks. No, not being able to take a heavy weapon isnīt a drawback if you donīt intend to use them anyway.
I donīt use Scout Bikers with my Marines. So if I swear to never use them, should I get free upgrades for Attack Bikes because Iīm limiting myself oh so much? Or is that actually feigning a "weakness" to get more stuff?
[QUOTE]

Flawed SM get Combat Tactics they also get Combat Squads. As i pointed out earlier in the thread you also get freeby Heavies and specials in your SM Tactical Squads. SW don't get Combat Squads to get the Freeby we have to buy the Whole unit like SM do but we don't get to split them. We also don't get the likes of taking Vulkan and his auto twin linking weapons on all flamers melta's and master crafting Thunder Hammers for free. Wow 1pts cheaper than a SM that gets oh Combat Tactics and Combat Squads Rules, plus comes with a Sergeant as standard. Has transport that carries greater numbers in it Drop Pods and Land Raiders. Lets not also forget that SM army gets more unit choices than a SW army would to boot as well.

Round up of units a SM army gets that as SW army doesn't:
12 man Land Raiders and Drop Pods
Scout Biker Squadron.
Land Speeder Storms
Sternguard
Vanguard
Thunder Cannons
Honour Guard
Command Squads
Masters of the Forge that allow 6 dreadnoughts to a army.
Ironclad Dreadnoughts
Extra men to go in a Long Fang unit to soak up incoming fire.
Attack Bike Squadrons

SW Powers for the Rune Priest good but hardly game winning and all powerful infact a good number of SM powers are far better and more useful.

Bestial Fury
12-10-2009, 14:07
I know vanillas are not complaining about the SW dex. I mean really? 40 point SS/TH termies versus 63 pt SW equiv? 12 man pods with sternguard with cheap combi's. Using the old SW EoT power the "the Gate"? Iron Clads???? Outflanking bikers???? Vulkan are you kidding me?? locator beacons??? You have plenty of goodies. Plenty of things SW cannot do.

As stated...
-There are advantages/disadvantages between the two. That is
-Codex creep really means "This is new, you will need to change your tactics". It is similar to the "They've killed my army!" The genesis of both is "new stuff and change".
-Try complaining to non SM players. They'll have very strong opinions on how "pitiful" the Marneus dex is in comparison to SW's
-Manning up, just means deal and quit "B****ing. The last thing I'd do when losing to a player or reviewing a dex is cry about what they have. I'd try my darnedest to beat them as that leaves the power in my hands.

Druchi QFT on all points.

Sorros
12-10-2009, 14:53
I'm scared to see how people will react to the Dark Eldar or Nids.

loveless
12-10-2009, 14:56
These threads make me laugh. Just so...over-the-top. Granted, the OP is very well written if you take out the sarcastic bits or opinionated labels, so that's a plus.

I picked up the Space Wolf book - the models made me fancy making a list, not the supposed power level - and I've got to say...for the most part, I prefer Codex: Space Marines. Counter-attack is humourous, but it makes for a very different playstyle to my "vanilla" Marines.

Moreover, the Wolves lack a lot of the fun bits of the Marines - Ironclads (I love these things), Combat Squads (more useful than I ever expected), Combat Tactics, ridiculous Scout Bikers, Apothecaries, Masters of the Forge, psykers who aren't Shamans (not that I have anything against a Shaman, but...eh...), Sternguard, relatively more useful Chaplains, etc. etc.

The Wolves have plenty of fun bits as well, of course. A better choice of Troops (Grey Hunters and Blood Claws make for a better option than Tactical Squads and Scout Squads), 2 specials in a squad, improved Heavy Weapons Troops, more customizable Sergeants, and better Librarians (not even for the powers as much as the Runic Weapons).

There's such a change in mentality going from Marines to Wolves that it's a bit shocking, given the aesthetic similarities. Your Assault Troops - were it not for their special rules - are mediocre compared to the Marine version. The Bikes have gone from a quick-response team to yet another bizarre Assault unit. Scouts serve a different purpose, since Wolf Scouts can actually hit the broad side of a barn.

It really seems to me, at least, that a successful Wolf army is going to look very different from a successful Marine army. I'd go so far as to say that a Marine player "jumping on the bandwagon" is going to struggle a bit at first as he tries to forcefit the Wolf rules to his force.

Space Wolves will be a tough cookie - that's good, since 40K had been suffering from "yawn syndrome" for far too long (before the Orks broke onto the scene, and even then, the Daemons were a snoozefest ruleswise). The more things that are over-the-top, the better.

Despite that, I don't realistically see changing Codices as something I'd want to do - or even need to do to "stay competitive." I suppose I don't fear the Wolves, nor do I hate my Space Marine book. Now...I'll probably build a Wolf list in the future as well...I just love those plastics too much not to :p

Mojaco
12-10-2009, 15:17
Grey hunters are not more powerful than vanilla Space Marines. They're just more obviously powerful.
Generic Space Marines have more subtle special rules, but which can have a far bigger impact. For example, when I charge a Grey hunter squad, me and my opponent will expect his guys to get 3 attacks each. This may not happen due to Ld8 (or 9), but in general 3 attacks is what they'll likely have. It's scary, but something you can keep in mind easy enough.

However, Marines get the nasy Combat Tactics. Now if I want to charge something, I can't 'soften them up' with my firepower as they'll just run away on purpose leaving my unit stranded. It's not predictable for me, so I'll just not shoot, throwing away the option of making the upcoming fight easier.

Both rules are great. But Marines even get Combat Squads, whereas Grey Hunters get acute senses. I hardly need to break these two down to see which is the most powerful. Combat Squads is a monster of a rule, and Grey Hunters will sorely miss it.

That's not to say I think the SW codex is well-written. I can't stress enough that Runepriests are rediculous. Sure, they might go whole battles without doing something, but the whole reasoning behind it is just wrong on every account. SW's wielding the most powerful magic? Check. JotWW ignoring dozens of rules (terrain, LoS, wound allocation, 'invunerable' saves, wounds)? Check. SW's able of neutering every psycker within 24"? Check. It's stupid and should never have happened. I expect Runepriests to become staple choices and Njal becoming a very common sight.

Foxen
12-10-2009, 15:20
My complaints about the new Space Wolves Codex...

1. Ack...I can no longer take 3 powerfists and 2(3) Plasma Pistols in a 9 man + 1 Wolfguard Grey Hunter unit.

2. ALL Marines basically have True-Grit now (since they are all armed with both Bolters and Bolt Pistols). So sad. The Wolves are now...normal in that regard.

3. The Venerable Dred of old is now 270pts.

4. The Wolf Scouts now have a 1 in 3 chance NOT to attack from the backlines! No sense of stability there.

5. Wolf Scouts are a bit more skimpy with what they can be armed with...like the Grey Hunters and BLood Claws. Guess weapons are in short supply after so many editions of fighting.

6. What happened to 0-20 Wolf Guard per Elite slot???

7. Book was in serious need of editting...serious need.

8. Credit to someone else on this..Canis' Thunder Wolf looks more like a Pomeranian on steroids than say....a wolf. Elongate the snout a bit more and I'd be happier with the wolf model (although this isn't really a problem with the codex per se).

9. 10 man Drop Pods instead of 12...err?

10. NO special rules against Thousand Sons and Dark Angels?

11....just kidding.

The wolves don't seem to be all that different than their last codex. There's some changes within unit composition that are a bit more fun or allows for a bit more diversity (like Wulfen in place of an additional special CCW).

For many that are "complaining" on this thread...they really should look back to the old Wolf Codex to see how things have "radically" changed and NOT complain, at least, about special wolf rules that existed BEFORE this edition of the Wolves. None of you seemed to have been whining about those same wolf rules PRIOR to the codex release...

Let's give the new rules some time...only a thousand battles will tell...so let's battle on!

Fox

Inquisitor Engel
12-10-2009, 15:33
I remember the same thing being said about Marines and Guard.

None of it came to pass.

The Space Wolves will be the same way - some crazy units that are easily neutralized by the right opponent or are just too damned hard to even put on the table in a competitive environment.

Only a rich fool would convert Thunderwolf Cavalry to be of correct size and stature (ie Canis).

gwarsh41
12-10-2009, 15:37
hmm, thinking about blood angels.. I dont know too well, but arent they vampires or similar?
Just think twilight...

loveless
12-10-2009, 15:43
2. ALL Marines basically have True-Grit now (since they are all armed with both Bolters and Bolt Pistols). So sad. The Wolves are now...normal in that regard.


Common misconception.

The True Grit equivalent is Bolt Pistol + Bolter + Close Combat Weapon.
Space Wolves Grey Hunters have this.
Chaos Space Marines have this.
Codex Marines and Dark Angels do not have this (they lack the CCW).

Foxen
12-10-2009, 15:45
Common misconception.

Codex Marines and Dark Angels do not have this (they lack the CCW).

You are correct...I take that back then!

Fox

Badger[Fr]
12-10-2009, 16:05
SW's wielding the most powerful magic? Check.
Ridiculous. With the exception of JoTWW, Space Wolves powers aren't that impressive compared to, say, Null Zone, Gate of Infinity, or Weaken Resolve, not to mention Doom and Fortune.


SW's able of neutering every psycker within 24"? Check.
That's a blatant exageration. Both the Eldar and the Inquisition have superior psychic protections with infinite range, be it Runes of Warding or a Ld10 Psychic hood.

Master Jeridian
12-10-2009, 16:17
Ridiculous. With the exception of JoTWW, Space Wolves powers aren't that impressive compared to, say, Null Zone, Gate of Infinity, or Weaken Resolve, not to mention Doom and Fortune.

That's pretty poor argument skills there. You can't dismiss the statement that "Space Wolves have the most powerful magic" by making the most powerful magic power an exception.

The very fact you have to except it from your list of most powerful psychic powers is an 'epic fail' to your own argument.

Fenrir
12-10-2009, 16:21
That's pretty poor argument skills there. You can't dismiss the statement that "Space Wolves have the most powerful magic" by making the most powerful magic power an exception.

The very fact you have to except it from your list of most powerful psychic powers is an 'epic fail' to your own argument.

"Jaws of the World Wolf isn't that impressive in comparison to Jaws of the World Wolf" doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it?

Epic Fail. Try harder next time as you might succeed one day, Love.

Corrode
12-10-2009, 16:30
That's pretty poor argument skills there. You can't dismiss the statement that "Space Wolves have the most powerful magic" by making the most powerful magic power an exception.

The very fact you have to except it from your list of most powerful psychic powers is an 'epic fail' to your own argument.

Jaws is going to murder Carnifexes and Ork PK Nobs. Everything else is going to laugh and hit the Rune Priest in the face really, really hard. He's 100pts before gaining any mobility or ablative wounds, and with the exception of sniping 'fexes he's never, ever going to earn back more than 100pts without a mobility increase.

Mojaco
12-10-2009, 16:31
"Jaws of the World Wolf isn't all that powerful in comparison to Jaws of the World Wolf" doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it?
Things have a tendency not to make sense if you change and warp them to fit your argument. This is what Badger said;

;4031178']With the exception of JoTWW, Space Wolves powers aren't that impressive compared to, say, Null Zone, Gate of Infinity, or Weaken Resolve, not to mention Doom and Fortune.
Removing the exeption, the sentence would become; "Wolves powers aren't that impressive compared to, say, Null Zone, Gate of Infinity, or Weaken Resolve, not to mention Doom and Fortune." Not that nonsense you wrote.



Epic Fail. Try harder next time as you might succeed one day, Love.
Quoted for ironic truth.

edit; post got in between

Jaws is going to murder Carnifexes and Ork PK Nobs. Everything else is going to laugh and hit the Rune Priest in the face really, really hard. He's 100pts before gaining any mobility or ablative wounds, and with the exception of sniping 'fexes he's never, ever going to earn back more than 100pts without a mobility increase.
Not if you have limited imagination. IG (special) characters with initiative 3? Ork Nobs or bikes with initiative 3 and 2? Deepstriking Nurgle daemons (one line easily hits 4 or so)? Necrons? Even at initiative 6 or higher multiple runepriest can remove the likes of avatars or other nasties quite reliably, not to mention the fact that sniping special weapons or whatever is an ability worth more than the points killed.

Scy
12-10-2009, 16:41
Just looking through my IA 4 and noticed that for the cost of the majority of SW IC, I could get a Trygon :eek:

Badger[Fr]
12-10-2009, 16:45
You can't dismiss the statement that "Space Wolves have the most powerful magic" by making the most powerful magic power an exception.
As far as I know, Chaos has the other most powerful psychic power in the whole game (Lash), and plenty of other useful abilities such as Wind of Chaos, Gift of Chaos, or Warptime. And yet, nobody ever complained that Chaos "has the best psykers in the whole game".


The very fact you have to except it from your list of most powerful psychic powers is an 'epic fail' to your own argument.
There is a huge difference between a single, overpowered psychic power and the ability to utterly dominate the whole psychic phase. Pretending otherwise is a blatant lie, akin to saying that the IG is an overpowered CC army because Straken and Rough Riders are amongst the most cost-efficient CC units in the whole game. A single psychic power != The SW psychic abilities as a whole.

Fenrir
12-10-2009, 16:51
See you ladies in four months when you are all crying about something in the Tyranid book, that isn't a powerful as the internet has decided it is, and are all throwing fits about it.

Amusing reading, if nothing else. Especially some of the self righteous crap being spouted recently.

Quote THIS for "ironic" truth!

*wanders off laughing at the nerds going mental about something not very important every time a book is released. Except when it's the army they use, then it's 100% fair.

LKHERO
12-10-2009, 16:52
This thread is terrible.

primarch16
12-10-2009, 16:54
The only thing that really scares me in the new SW book is grey hunters, just because they are cheap and effective. I actually fear these guys more than I do IG vets (at least you can charge IG vets lol)

RoguePariah
12-10-2009, 17:00
It seems that a major part of the gripe against SW's is generated from comparing them to standard Marines.

I can't help but wonder what the current thoughts would be if the SW codex (as it is right now) had been released before the SM codex.

Sure we would have heard complaints about all of the same SW units and choices being spammable or whatnot. We would have still heard gripes about 3+ storm shields. JoWW. 4HQ choices. We would have heard crying over GH's getting a bolter BP and CCW. and on and on and on...

Then when the SM codex was released I have a funny feeling we would have heard how SW are bunk compared to the new SM book. How chapter tactics with special characters are superior to being limited to only counter attack. Sternguard magic bullets. Gate of Infinity. Assault terminators getting 3+ storm shields and pf's for cheaper. (that would be huge) and on and on and on...

Most armies are going to do one (or several) things better than another.

In general my point is this,
Don't be blinded by the new shinyness.
Comparing a codex that has been through the ringer for a few months to one that is barely a week old is never going to yield any reliable results.

For those who complain about how OP the SW's are, you may be right. No one can know for sure.
Till then bide your time... learn to kill the wolves.
If in a few months, when we have an adequate timeframe to compare the two armies, the SW are pantsing everybody and their brother-in-law, then we can cry foul and stage a massive SW defenestration.
But of course we won't bother to compare them then, we'll be too busy ripping on the new shinyness that is codex "whatever".

wait...

see...

Bender
12-10-2009, 17:03
Sorry if i am going to shock anyone, but am i the only one to think this codex is actually weaker than the older one????


think of it this way!!!


rune priest and wolf priest have 2 less attacks

one didn't had to take a wolf guard to have the second power weapon/power fist in our grey hunters/blood claws, i remember when i used to run packs with 9 grey hunters and i had 2 power weapons... and it was freaking awsome


venerable dread, this one really hurts and it isn't the option to take him as HQ, it is pointwise... it is really costier


bikes actually cost more, and have 1 less power weapon/fist

sky claws still suck big time...


the rest is the same

wolf guard are better, but they aren't over the top, because the upgrades make them prohibitive


thunderwolf cavalry... costs a lot, and this ain't orks, our troops are 15 points, not 8


this is my point... bring back the old codex, with lots of fists and power weapons!!!!

Mojaco
12-10-2009, 17:08
;4031290']As far as I know, Chaos has the other most powerful psychic power in the whole game (Lash), and plenty of other useful abilities such as Wind of Chaos, Gift of Chaos, or Warptime. And yet, nobody ever complained that Chaos "has the best psykers in the whole game".
True, but for me personally a big part of my complaint is that SW's have no business being powerful in the magic department. It's as if dwarfs are shootign fireballs. Some magic is fine, but they shouldn't be among the top. Aside from that, Chaos pays through the roof for a sorceror with a single power.



There is a huge difference between a single, overpowered psychic power and the ability to utterly dominate the whole psychic phase. Pretending otherwise is a blatant lie, akin to saying that the IG is an overpowered CC army because Straken and Rough Riders are amongst the most cost-efficient CC units in the whole game. A single psychic power != The SW psychic abilities as a whole.
If you take an extreme, 4 runepriests of which one is Njal, you have incredible psychic defense and offense. No other race can match that, even Eldar.

Master Jeridian
12-10-2009, 17:13
"Jaws of the World Wolf isn't that impressive in comparison to Jaws of the World Wolf" doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it?


No I don't suppose it would, though it doesn't seem to have any connection to the segment you quoted or indeed to the topic at all? You've essentially spouted gibberish. Well done.


Quoted for ironic truth.


Too true.


As far as I know, Chaos has the other most powerful psychic power in the whole game (Lash), and plenty of other useful abilities such as Wind of Chaos, Gift of Chaos, or Warptime. And yet, nobody ever complained that Chaos "has the best psykers in the whole game".


My response is connecting to your arguing style, not your arguing content.

You can't use the 'with the exception of' line to remove from a list of 'most powerful psychic powers' the one psychic power that ruins your whole viewpoint, it's pointless.

If we're arguing who has the best shoes, and I say "With the exception of Amy, I have the best shoes", that doesn't mean I have the best shoes, it means Amy does- it just backs up the very argument your disagreeing with, a literary version of shooting yourself in the foot.

That the Chaos one may be better, that it is opinion, that the SW one might not be that powerful, or it might, etc is irrelevant when discussing arguing style- using 'with the exception of' when comparing the very thing in the exception is amazingly epic fail.


Quote THIS for "ironic" truth!

Got to love people who don't get irony.
Take that 'irony', ooh, touche.

Morganstern
12-10-2009, 17:13
My bigest problem is not with the codex itself, rather the fact that I look a the new Wolf codex and see what could have been done with the Chaos codex.

Bestial Fury
12-10-2009, 17:18
My bigest problem is not with the codex itself, rather the fact that I look a the new Wolf codex and see what could have been done with the Chaos codex.

As a budding Chaos player, and one who also likes DA's, I can see the frustration. However, I think what peeves me is that folks take it out on SW players and not GW. Send letters to GW and let's not spoil the hobby for anyone else.

Tringsh
12-10-2009, 17:28
As a budding Chaos player, and one who also likes DA's, I can see the frustration. However, I think what peeves me is that folks take it out on SW players and not GW. Send letters to GW and let's not spoil the hobby for anyone else.

Good comment but we both know how people like to vent on here. I think the bottom line as many people have pointed out is that this thread is completely flawed.

Eulenspiegel
12-10-2009, 17:34
Thatīs why Iīm closing it.