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ancient_conflict
12-10-2009, 11:32
I am trying to find out what each tithe grade entails specifically. I doubt it the information is out there but someone might have stumbled upon it.

i have searched the net and so far only got the following list:

Adeptus Non

Decuma Tertius
Decuma Secundus
Decuma Prima
Decuma Particular
Decuma Extremis

Solutio Tertius
Solutio Secundus
Solutio Prima
Solutio Particular
Solutio Extremis

Exactis Tertius
Exactis Secundus
Exactis Prima
Exactis Particular
Exactis Extremis

I am aware that Adeptus Non is a special catogory for specialist worlds like Space Marine Home Worlds and Forge Worlds. what I am after is what the other categories mean?

i.e. Decuma Tertius means that the worlds tithe is 5% of Annual Produce and 1 regiment of 20,000 Guard every 20 Years (Note this is just an example of the information that i trying find out)

Any information on the actual tithes would be most helpful.

Thanks

A_C

Amareo Davion
12-10-2009, 12:40
Well another name for adeptus non is aptus non. They are given to space marine homeworlds which don't have to give anything to the imperium. Thats the only info I could find.

Try looking in the 3rd edition rulebook.

AndrewGPaul
12-10-2009, 15:23
I don't think they've ever specified the precise tithe levels for a given grade. In fact, I'm surprised the list you've got is so coherent, as I assume they just made them up willy-nilly. :)

I'm not sure I really want to know, but why are you asking?

ancient_conflict
12-10-2009, 15:42
the list i have i found was off another forum.

the information is to do with a game of dark heresy but i want to have more "detailed" information on for the planets

Hypaspist
12-10-2009, 15:49
You have the names.... just fudge it!
(or are they the, "no that can't be right. that's not what the Latin means" crowd?)

madprophet
12-10-2009, 16:33
Well, I can't give you precise figures or anything but working off the names we can get at least a thumbnail sketch of what these tithes are.

Adeptus Non - Non-Worker or Non-Adeptus so I guess this is a world beyond the authority of the Adeptus Terra like a Space Marine or Adeptus Mechanicus world.

Decuma was the Fate who determines the length of the thread of life. So a world that had to pay a decuma tithe is probably liable for some sort of head tax or number of guard recruits due on a rising percentage of the planetary population

Decuma Tertius - Every Third Life/ Every third of life meaning perhaps every person in the first 1/3 of their life fit for military service.
Decuma Secundus - Every Second Life / Every second of life meaning perhaps every person in the first 1/2 of their life fit for military service.
Decuma Prima - Every (First) Life / Every First life meaning perhaps every adult person fit for military service
Decuma Particular - Each life meaning perhaps every adult person regardless of fitness for military service
Decuma Extremis - Life to Death perhaps every person including non-adults, slaves and perhaps even animals.

Solutio is the second order of alchemical practices. It is considered one of the major procedures in alchemy. Having to do with water and with its purifying and dissolving properties, solutio is the process by which the prima material or matter is returned to its most basic, undifferentiated state.

For the ancient alchemists it was the process of solutiothat turned the differentiated or varied state of matter into its most primal or undifferentiated state. This was essential because unless a substance was first transformed to its most basic state, it could not be worked with successfully.

Read more: http://metaphysics.suite101.com/article.cfm/solutio_ancient_alchemy_of_water#ixzz0TjsNKoTJ

Perhaps we are talking about economic output here rather than people - examples would be high tech low population worlds were the economic activity per capita is extremely high or very fertile agri-worlds.

Solutio Tertius 1/3 of the GDP at a base rate
Solutio Secundus 1/2 of the GDP at a base rate
Solutio Prima 100% of GDP at a base rate
Solutio Particular 100% of GDP at a base rate with certain areas of the economy taxed at a higher rate
Solutio Extremis more than 100% of the GDP at a base rate (essentially Solutio Prima with a surcharge added on)

Exactis means precise. Perhaps we are talking a tithe out of both the population (a head tax or a number of guard recruits) as well as an ecomomic tithe - used on high tech, high population worlds I would imagine. Essentially both the Decuma and Solutio tithes.

Exactis Tertius
Exactis Secundus
Exactis Prima
Exactis Particular
Exactis Extremis

t-tauri
12-10-2009, 18:26
Moved to 40k background. Please scroll down past 40k general. ;)

precinctomega
12-10-2009, 19:54
Originally, the term for untithed worlds (first seen in the 3rd Ed rulebook) was Aptus Non, meaning "not liable". Unfortunately, that was misread by later Studio scribes who expanded it to the term Adeptus Non.

Personally, I prefer the former term because too much crap in 40k has "Adeptus" attached to it for no good reason already.

R.

Askil the Undecided
12-10-2009, 20:26
I think Aptus Non was probably a stand-alone thing and Adeptus Non is a circumstatial colloquialism based on the fact that Adeptus-run words are Aptus Non that has been formalised by the weight of time.

AndrewGPaul
12-10-2009, 21:03
the list i have i found was off another forum.

the information is to do with a game of dark heresy but i want to have more "detailed" information on for the planets

Fair enough. My approach to taxation in RPGs is usually along the lines of "how much spare change to I want the players to have left?" :)

Brother Enok
12-10-2009, 23:13
Well, I can't give you precise figures or anything but working off the names we can get at least a thumbnail sketch of what these tithes are.

Adeptus Non - Non-Worker or Non-Adeptus so I guess this is a world beyond the authority of the Adeptus Terra like a Space Marine or Adeptus Mechanicus world.

Decuma was the Fate who determines the length of the thread of life. So a world that had to pay a decuma tithe is probably liable for some sort of head tax or number of guard recruits due on a rising percentage of the planetary population

Decuma Tertius - Every Third Life/ Every third of life meaning perhaps every person in the first 1/3 of their life fit for military service.
Decuma Secundus - Every Second Life / Every second of life meaning perhaps every person in the first 1/2 of their life fit for military service.
Decuma Prima - Every (First) Life / Every First life meaning perhaps every adult person fit for military service
Decuma Particular - Each life meaning perhaps every adult person regardless of fitness for military service
Decuma Extremis - Life to Death perhaps every person including non-adults, slaves and perhaps even animals.

Solutio is the second order of alchemical practices. It is considered one of the major procedures in alchemy. Having to do with water and with its purifying and dissolving properties, solutio is the process by which the prima material or matter is returned to its most basic, undifferentiated state.

For the ancient alchemists it was the process of solutiothat turned the differentiated or varied state of matter into its most primal or undifferentiated state. This was essential because unless a substance was first transformed to its most basic state, it could not be worked with successfully.

Read more: http://metaphysics.suite101.com/article.cfm/solutio_ancient_alchemy_of_water#ixzz0TjsNKoTJ

Perhaps we are talking about economic output here rather than people - examples would be high tech low population worlds were the economic activity per capita is extremely high or very fertile agri-worlds.

Solutio Tertius 1/3 of the GDP at a base rate
Solutio Secundus 1/2 of the GDP at a base rate
Solutio Prima 100% of GDP at a base rate
Solutio Particular 100% of GDP at a base rate with certain areas of the economy taxed at a higher rate
Solutio Extremis more than 100% of the GDP at a base rate (essentially Solutio Prima with a surcharge added on)

Exactis means precise. Perhaps we are talking a tithe out of both the population (a head tax or a number of guard recruits) as well as an ecomomic tithe - used on high tech, high population worlds I would imagine. Essentially both the Decuma and Solutio tithes.

Exactis Tertius
Exactis Secundus
Exactis Prima
Exactis Particular
Exactis Extremis

Brilliant post, sire. Very imformative.

RCgothic
12-10-2009, 23:48
What I find interesting is where do the economic tithes go? Could it be that a world tithed for production of battle tanks may be in receipt of twice that tithe in raw metal/component parts?

guillimansknight
12-10-2009, 23:56
Yep

Agri-worlds supply forgeworlds and fortress worlds
forge worlds supply fortress worlds
mining worlds supply forgeworlds
ect ect ect

madprophet
13-10-2009, 00:40
What I find interesting is where do the economic tithes go? Could it be that a world tithed for production of battle tanks may be in receipt of twice that tithe in raw metal/component parts?

I would assume that tithes work in the Imperium the way it did in the medieval church - the level of authority receiving the tithe keeps a percentage, typically 1/3 to 1/2 and passes the rest up the food chain.

The Adeptus Terra would then allocate the tithes to whatever industries need them at each level in whatever amounts deemed sufficient with a percentage of the production/profits going to each level of authority along the way.

Of course, there is very little official fluff about the economy of the 41st millennium so we are really just speculating here. :angel:

MagosHereticus
13-10-2009, 08:59
i always liked to think that part of the economic drive for interplanetary trade in the 41st millennium was that planetary governors had to purchase what is needed for their tithes from each other (as well as for their PDFs) for example a hive world would need to supply uniforms and the appropriate rations for their regiments for at least as long as it takes until the regiment can resupply (possible once they arrive at a warzone) and agriworlds would need to supply weapons and ammunition as well as vehicles for their regiments when they get tithed, in both these cases these resources would probably need to be traded for between worlds at the behest of the planetary governors

sort of micro management to make things easier on the munitorium

Sai-Lauren
15-10-2009, 13:52
I don't think they've ever specified the precise tithe levels for a given grade. In fact, I'm surprised the list you've got is so coherent, as I assume they just made them up willy-nilly.

Agreed. Beyond the first being "nothing" and the last being "everything we can wring out of them, plus a bit more".

I like madprophet's ones (and feel slightly ashamed I can't write posts that are that good :)), although maybe Exactis means that they have to supply certain things as their tithe (an agri-world would have to supply food, and couldn't substitute any for people for example, as there are worlds that will starve without that food).

Solutio could mean n people = x imperial credits = y food = z mineral ores - so long as everything adds up to what the Administratum's expecting, they'll take it in whatever form they get.

And Decuma as tithed for people only (and not just for the guard and/or navy) - worlds that are only just self-sufficient or unable to export anything else.

As an aside Adeptus Non is probably an auto-correct error - someone will have put Adeptus in their spellchecker, and it's picked that up and changed it. ;)

madprophet
15-10-2009, 22:01
Agreed. Beyond the first being "nothing" and the last being "everything we can wring out of them, plus a bit more".

Well, pretty much that's what the tithes are.


I like madprophet's ones (and feel slightly ashamed I can't write posts that are that good :)),

Awww... Shucks... now I'm blushing :D


although maybe Exactis means that they have to supply certain things as their tithe (an agri-world would have to supply food, and couldn't substitute any for people for example, as there are worlds that will starve without that food).

Maybe, Exactis means precise so your take works at least as well as mine.


Solutio could mean n people = x imperial credits = y food = z mineral ores - so long as everything adds up to what the Administratum's expecting, they'll take it in whatever form they get.

Sure, why not? That would also be inside the meaning of the term Solutio.


And Decuma as tithed for people only (and not just for the guard and/or navy) - worlds that are only just self-sufficient or unable to export anything else.

I would presume - Catachan would fall into this category.


As an aside Adeptus Non is probably an auto-correct error - someone will have put Adeptus in their spellchecker, and it's picked that up and changed it. ;)

Very likely - Non-Aptus means "Not Liable" which would be a more apt (pun intended) designation. Given the usual "rigorous and professional" proof-reading that GW puts every little thing they print through, I wouldn't be surprised (:evilgrin:)

Sai-Lauren
16-10-2009, 12:30
Well, pretty much that's what the tithes are.

For the last, I meant taxed so heavily they're almost screaming (top rate tax in the UK is near enough 50% atm, I'm thinking the Imperium would be after 70-80% in some cases, plus the equivalent of VAT/sales taxes).

And in addition, the ... Particular grade. I'm thinking this limits the planet to exact exports.

An agri world with Exactis Prima might have to give x million tones of produced food (grain, dairy, meat etc), but one with Exactis Particular would have to give up that quantity of grain, or potatoes, or meat. And couldn't substitute any dairy in instead if the numbers weren't working out.

A Solutio Particular world might have to send certain proportions in their various production groups, or a certain amount of something in particular, whilst the rest could be made up from a mix of everything else whilst, a Decuma Particular - they might have to send several hundred thousand clerks to the Administratum, or 10 regiments of mechanised infantry to the guard, and wouldn't be allowed to send 3 infantry regiments, 10 thousand clerks and allow the navy to bring down the press gangs.


I would presume - Catachan would fall into this category.

And maybe Terra too (exports: people, administratum red tape and eccelesiarchy edicts), although I can see groups like the Assassin temples asking the Administratum to get them some of the more venomous creatures to milk for toxins (or for the Officio Sabatorum to send to people - one gift-wrapped Catachan Face Eater :)).

Although there must have been some reason the first settlers landed there (and all the other unpleasant worlds like Fenris), which made dealing with the flora and fauna worthwhile - they can't all have crash landed.



Given the usual "rigorous and professional" proof-reading that GW puts every little thing they print through, I wouldn't be surprised ()

Along with their usual level of spull-chocking... :D

incarna
16-10-2009, 13:56
Tertius means 3
Secundus means 2
Prima means “most important”
Particular has several meanings but I think the one that most fits is “special”
Extremus also has several meanings but I think the one that best fits is “extreme”


The only meaning I could find for the word “Decuma” is that of the name of Greek mythological figure Decuma who was the Fate who determined the length of the thread of life. I take this to mean, from a 40k standpoint, “generation”… in other words; Decuma Tertius is a 3% tithe every generation… I would imagine this would be most planets.

The word Exactis, from my understanding of latin, means “when/because”. I would take Exactis Tertius to mean, “WHEN the Imperium needs it, you provide a 3% tithe” I would guess that these tend to be planets where the population is involved in production of some essential resource to the Imperium – but can spare a tithe when it has to.

The word Solutio has several Latin meanings but I think the one that most fits is “payment” which I would interpret to mean “your payment for existence within the Imperium.”

These are all just guesses but I would translate the meanings in the following way:

Adeptus Non – No Tithe

Decuma Tertius – 3% tithe every generation
Decuma Secundus – 2% tithe every generation
Decuma Prima – most important tithe every generation (A tithe of fighter pilots, Titans, Baneblades, and other incredibly important, but relatively rare war goods and personnel)
Decuma Particular – special tithe every generation (a tithe of virus bombs, ogryns, a special type of weapon, etc.)
Decuma Extremis – a major tithe every generation (a tithe from a planet that exists for no other purpose than to provide troops to the Imperium)

Solutio Tertius – 3% tithe whenever the Imperium wants it
Solutio Secundus – 2% tithe whenever the Imperium wants it
Solutio Prima – most important tithe whenever the Imperium wants it
Solutio Particular – special tithe whenever the Imperium wants it
Solutio Extremis – extreme tithe whenever the Imperium wants it

Exactis Tertius – 3% tithe only when the Imperium needs it
Exactis Secundus – 2% tithe only when the Imperium needs it
Exactis Prima – most important tithe only when the Imperium needs it
Exactis Particular – special tithe only when the Imperium needs it
Exactis Extremis – extreme tithe only when the Imperium needs it

Iracundus
16-10-2009, 14:25
You have an error in the above. In declining order of importance it is Prima, Secundus, Tertius (i.e. primary, secondary, tertiary). So the Secundus grade should be harsher heavier than Tertius.

madprophet
18-10-2009, 02:06
For the last, I meant taxed so heavily they're almost screaming (top rate tax in the UK is near enough 50% atm, I'm thinking the Imperium would be after 70-80% in some cases, plus the equivalent of VAT/sales taxes).

During the Carter years, the top nominal U.S. income tax rate was 70% - it was 90% during the Eisenhower years. So we have seen taxes that high.


And in addition, the ... Particular grade. I'm thinking this limits the planet to exact exports.

An agri world with Exactis Prima might have to give x million tones of produced food (grain, dairy, meat etc), but one with Exactis Particular would have to give up that quantity of grain, or potatoes, or meat. And couldn't substitute any dairy in instead if the numbers weren't working out.

Perhaps. I mean, we are just speculating here but it would seem to me that if there just weren't the potatoes to be had, wouldn't the Imperium accept some other foodstuff or even money when the alternative is getting nothing at all?


A Solutio Particular world might have to send certain proportions in their various production groups, or a certain amount of something in particular, whilst the rest could be made up from a mix of everything else whilst, a Decuma Particular - they might have to send several hundred thousand clerks to the Administratum, or 10 regiments of mechanised infantry to the guard, and wouldn't be allowed to send 3 infantry regiments, 10 thousand clerks and allow the navy to bring down the press gangs.

This makes more sense since you can draw people from different walks of life in a draft and if the Imperium needs infantrymen, clerks make poor substitutes.


And maybe Terra too (exports: people, administratum red tape and eccelesiarchy edicts), although I can see groups like the Assassin temples asking the Administratum to get them some of the more venomous creatures to milk for toxins (or for the Officio Sabatorum to send to people - one gift-wrapped Catachan Face Eater :)).

Perhaps, but according to some fluff Terra is a lifeless ball of rock, all earthly life except humanity is extinct. (How's THAT for Grim:chrome:Dark?)


Although there must have been some reason the first settlers landed there (and all the other unpleasant worlds like Fenris), which made dealing with the flora and fauna worthwhile - they can't all have crash landed.

In the grim darkness of the far future there are only crash landings... :cheese:



Along with their usual level of spull-chocking... :D

But of course! :evilgrin:

Sai-Lauren
19-10-2009, 08:41
Perhaps. I mean, we are just speculating here but it would seem to me that if there just weren't the potatoes to be had, wouldn't the Imperium accept some other foodstuff or even money when the alternative is getting nothing at all?

If they're expecting a certain grade of promethium, which then goes to be processed into fuel for the Navy's fighters, a different grade probably won't cut it.

And rather than get nothing, they'll send the Administratum investigators in to make sure there's nothing to be had, and work out why they shouldn't execute the planetary governor for failure later.



Perhaps, but according to some fluff Terra is a lifeless ball of rock, all earthly life except humanity is extinct. (How's THAT for Grim:chrome:Dark?)

I actually meant Catachan exporting the creatures (hence the Face Eater ;)), but Terra's effectively Coruscant, and there'll be some creatures left anyway - from clones of the last surviving large animals in Navigator Family zoos, to Rats in the sewers.

Gorbad Ironclaw
19-10-2009, 16:53
Perhaps. I mean, we are just speculating here but it would seem to me that if there just weren't the potatoes to be had, wouldn't the Imperium accept some other foodstuff or even money when the alternative is getting nothing at all?


That's certainly the way I've always understood it. Each planet is taxed for a given value and that tax is paid either in credit or more usual in raw materials/industrial products/food stuff etc. They don't get a shopping list saying 4 dozen potatoes, 15 large eggs, 2 slices of cheese and a chocolate cake, they just get a bill saying 500 credits please.

Imperial Guard regiment is I think a separate system and is basically raised as needed and so won't feature into your standard tax system (usually. I'm sure you could pay your tax with soldiers if you want to).

madprophet
19-10-2009, 19:35
If they're expecting a certain grade of promethium, which then goes to be processed into fuel for the Navy's fighters, a different grade probably won't cut it.

And rather than get nothing, they'll send the Administratum investigators in to make sure there's nothing to be had, and work out why they shouldn't execute the planetary governor for failure later.

True 'nuff... and very Grim:chrome:Dark ;)



I actually meant Catachan exporting the creatures (hence the Face Eater ;)), but Terra's effectively Coruscant, and there'll be some creatures left anyway - from clones of the last surviving large animals in Navigator Family zoos, to Rats in the sewers.

Or Terra could be Trantor even :) (sorry, it's the grognard in me but Asimov came up with it first). But I suppose you're right about the availability of Terran fauna - we know they still have horses for the IG roughriders. (Visions of the Polish Lancers charging the panzers of the Wehrmacht here...:rolleyes:)

TrooperTino
04-11-2009, 00:20
I have found two more: a catastrphic event reduces Tanis Prime with a population of 90 million and Sekmet Orbital (probably an orbital station) with 770.000 to 0 population and Sant Astrids Fall (probably another planet or a moon) from 18 million to 11.000.

The tithe is therefor reduced from Exactus Meridian to Exactus Minima. but in the text is also the phrase "Query: Change in Tithe Status-Tanis System" so the U exactUs perhaps refers to complete starsystems