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thechosenone
13-10-2009, 00:57
So as with a number of the new armybooks coming out i've seen some power creep big time and teh advantages new books have over the older ones. That's naturally the way it will be i guess but i was curious what other folks thought. Is Armybook Skaven a new dominator or is this a fair book. I haven't seen it yet but i've followed up all the information on line.

Will this be the book to trump the unbeatable demons or are they still the win button?

Any thoughts on if this is going to be top tier undefatable till the next new thing or too early to tell?

kramplarv
13-10-2009, 01:01
power creep DOES NOT EXIST. If it did, LM and WoC would be the biggest killer armies there is. and no one would complain about DoC, DE or VC...

one more time... POWER CREEP DOES NOT EXIST. that's right. repeat after me..
power... creep...does... not... exist! good.

now then, I've not seen the book but I think it will be quite different from the 6th skavens. probably more focus of shooting and magic. since that seems to be the skaven way according to GW.

Paraelix
13-10-2009, 01:06
...i've seen some power creep big time... I haven't seen it yet but i've followed up all the information on line.

And you believe everything you read on the Internet?

Lizardmen are a relatively new book and are in no way overpowered.

Putty
13-10-2009, 05:26
i'll only believe Armybook creep when Empire is able to field 5 Steam Tanks in a normal 2250 game.

thechosenone
13-10-2009, 05:36
Maybe the creep isn't as over the top as it is in a 40K sense but for every balanced new army like lizard men there's a slightly skewed army like VC and Demons. So, do i think that some of the new books are balanced and fair, sure, do i think some of the new books are jam packed with bells and whistles that own everyone else, sure i do.

My point in the op is this? Based on what we've seen from reliable sources, do you feel the Skaven are balanced or are the things we're seeing look over the top.

Laurela
13-10-2009, 05:48
"POWER CREEP DO NOT EXIST" grammar exist do not?

Thanks for this constructive post. Not everyone's primary language is English you know.

I'd like to think that the majorly overpowered armies are finished. As someone said the WoC and Lizardmen books aren't as bad as the couple ones we've seen before it. And I'm hoping that the Skaven book will follow suit.

Arjuna
13-10-2009, 05:50
Armycreep is a nonissue if you are in this hobby for a long time because you will have multiple armies. The skaven book looks fun, beyond that who cares. No one makes their living off of playing warhammer competitively and trying to make everybook "equal" would completely stifle creativity.

Writing these rules is an art, not a science. Sometimes the developers get it right, sometimes they fail spectacularly. If you want all your miniatures to have equal power in the game then line them up on a checkerboard.

Army creep is one of the great zombie topics of all time. This dead issue has been raised by more people than will be resurrected during the second coming of Christ.

Vermin-thing
13-10-2009, 05:51
It existed in 5th edition. Oh the horrors.

sulla
13-10-2009, 07:14
Skaven looks to be a pretty good book. Shooting was toned down slightly (inasmuch as ratlings and jezzails are slightly depowered), infantry has tools to make it work more reliably, army composition was simplified and character choices all made more viable.

It is still vulnerable to psych so it iswill not be as easy to play as daemons or VC but it looks remarkable competent in most phases of the game despite being an infatry army.

Ward.
13-10-2009, 07:38
So as with a number of the new armybooks coming out i've seen some power creep big time and teh advantages new books have over the older ones. That's naturally the way it will be i guess but i was curious what other folks thought. Is Armybook Skaven a new dominator or is this a fair book. I haven't seen it yet but I've followed up all the information on line.

Will this be the book to trump the unbeatable demons or are they still the win button?

Any thoughts on if this is going to be top tier undefeatable till the next new thing or too early to tell?

They'll be mid tier, not as good as High elves but better if not equal to WOC, mostly due to the reaming of their magic item selection (lack of 4+ ward save, which would be a good thing if GW keep it up with other books).

The abomination and mortar spam look to be the closest to over powered they'll get, on top of huge units 'o PMs pushing the furnace around.

Waaagh Grignak
13-10-2009, 07:46
There was the potential for them to go like the 3.5 ed iron warriors in 40k, being written by a fanboy and all, but yeah it does look like they will be cool :)

fubukii
13-10-2009, 07:53
i think skaven lists will be on par with de/lm tournament lists.

Darkspear
13-10-2009, 09:38
I do not think we will see a power creep in the likes of 40k. The past few books, Chaos Lizardmen are ok, and it seems that Skaven is not over the top too.

Radium
13-10-2009, 10:31
I do not think we will see a power creep in the likes of 40k.

Funny, the 40k forums have it just the other way around :p.

Anyway, going by WoC and LM, I think this will be another army that is about as good as the newer books, but not 'broken' like some others are perceived to be.

shadow hunter
13-10-2009, 10:41
Time will tell how Skaven fair I guess. We are still going by poeple memories of the book. Until it is in gamers hands and a few games under there belt we wont know for sure - But I dont believe there is anything ridiculous over powered in it (although I maybe biast).

There is a lot of variety though - and I think they could tailor themselves to do well for specific enemies. I am lucky, though, and play with a tight group of close friends (7 of us including me) and we play for fun so these sort of issues are never a problem. (also - none of them are Daemon players, so I've yet to see them in action - although one plays them in 40K, so I think he will in fantasy soon too.)

Lord Khabal
13-10-2009, 10:50
Well, judging by the rumours, you can have unbreakable units (bell or furnace), skirmishers that can destroy ranked units charging by the front, and monsters that may never die.
I personally dont like skaven (dont like hordes), but I like playing against them, so cant wait to read their book and face them in the battlefield.

I think they are good, but not top tier. around lizzies and WOC good. Which is good.

Cambion Daystar
13-10-2009, 11:56
I'm still baffled that skaven have among the highest leadership in their base combat blocks of all armies (LD 10 with a lord in range)

Fenrir
13-10-2009, 12:05
I'll be waiting for the book before deciding. Skaven SAD was in the top tier of 6th, so it'll be interesting to see where they fall in the power stakes.

Tarax
13-10-2009, 12:11
i'll only believe Armybook creep when Empire is able to field 5 Steam Tanks in a normal 2250 game.

You can only wait for the Steam Tank to become a Special choice and a special upgraded one as a Rare choice. Just like they did with Stegadons. ;)

OT: Power Creep comes in different forms:
Lizardmen: more and powerful monsters (Stegadon, Razordon)
Dark Elf: more special rules and cheaper and more powerful monsters (Repeater crossbow/hatred and Hydra)
Vampire Counts: more Magic and monsters (re-cast on 3+ and Varghulf)
Deamons: less vulnerability (no more Deamonic Instability and vulnerable to Magic)
High Elf(?): special rule and more 'monsters' (ASF and Lion Chariot (to lesser extend: Dragons for Heroes))

While I don't know the army that much, Warriors of Chaos seem to be much of the same. (Always been a powerful army, but IMO not overpowered.)

Overall some of the Power Creep comes from several Special Characters.

Skraal2099
13-10-2009, 12:12
...and monsters that may never die...

Well actually, the rat ogre abomination's (forgive me if I got the name wrong, I don't play skaven) special rule "Too horrible to die" makes you have to roll on a table when it dies and if you roll a 6 then it comes back with one wound.

The SkaerKrow
13-10-2009, 12:15
Army Book creep does not exist. However, edition creep does. The 7th Edition army books are, by and large, superior to the 6th Edition books. Beyond that, there's been no power creep between the actual releases (see: Daemons of Chaos retaining the title as 'Ardest 'Army in '(W)Arhammer, while Warriors of Chaos are downright middle of the road).

Tokamak
13-10-2009, 12:33
Except for the greenskins, their 6th edition was stronger or at least equal. The first books of the 7th edition were just really conservative until they went for a whole new approach.

Screaming Manti
13-10-2009, 12:44
Well actually, the rat ogre abomination's (forgive me if I got the name wrong, I don't play skaven) special rule "Too horrible to die" makes you have to roll on a table when it dies and if you roll a 6 then it comes back with one wound.

Actually comes back with D6 wounds!

kramplarv
13-10-2009, 13:22
creep do exist. but not power creep, but balance creep.

Why is it difficult to defeat demons, DE or other stuffs? because there are so many different good builds so it is almost impossible to do an "all comer" because seldom do 2 demon armies look the same.

the same with many other books. the internal balance are so much better so now you can't really predict which VC army you are gonna face. The raise spam? the ultraknighty doomarmy, the skirmishing death of wraith, dragon? etc... in 6th ed there were just one or two good VC builds. Now we have several, and they behave differently :)

The SkaerKrow
13-10-2009, 16:00
Except for the greenskins, their 6th edition was stronger or at least equal. The first books of the 7th edition were just really conservative until they went for a whole new approach.Greenskins were robbed. I should actually put it in my signature that, when referencing 7th Edition books, I'm never talking about the Greenskins. Their mistreatment by the design team fills me with much nerd-sorrow.

loveless
13-10-2009, 16:43
I do not think we will see a power creep in the likes of 40k.

40K has power creep? 40K, where one of the strongest books is nearing 2 years old? Though time will tell with the new Space Wolves.

I do enjoy this dance between 40K and Fantasy
1, 2, "You're overpowered!"
3, 4, "No, you are!"
1, 2, "I use more tactics!"
3, 4, "No, I do!"
and so on :p


Army Book creep does not exist. However, edition creep does. The 7th Edition army books are, by and large, superior to the 6th Edition books. Beyond that, there's been no power creep between the actual releases (see: Daemons of Chaos retaining the title as 'Ardest 'Army in '(W)Arhammer, while Warriors of Chaos are downright middle of the road).

This. The 7th Edition books (barring O&G and possibly Empire nowadays) beat the snot out of 6th Edition books.

It's less "The new army beats all the others!" and more "Great, another army that the 6th Edition books have to struggle against."

selone
13-10-2009, 16:48
Whilst some army book's have got better than their older incarnations yes and Lizardmen are a very good book, I think any possible power creep arguments surely must be diminished by recent books. DE's, VC raise fest and Demons are still the big boys.
From what I've seen and from what I hope, skaven will eb competitively good but will not be outrageously good. This is just conjecture, albeit informed conjecture.

Loveless makes a good point althoguh wood elves are 6th edition and they're still doing okay

Enigmatik1
13-10-2009, 17:08
Whilst some army book's have got better than their older incarnations yes and Lizardmen are a very good book, I think any possible power creep arguments surely must be diminished by recent books. DE's, VC raise fest and Demons are still the big boys.
From what I've seen and from what I hope, skaven will eb competitively good but will not be outrageously good. This is just conjecture, albeit informed conjecture.

Loveless makes a good point althoguh wood elves are 6th edition and they're still doing okay

Agreed. Although Wood Elves and Dwarfs were supposedly written with 7E in mind so they have a little more leeway than say TK or Ogres. It's those of us in 6E limbo that have issues because we were all designed with glaring weaknesses that 7E have only made worse. GW just fell asleep or were very high on all sorts of illegal substances when writing O&G obviously.

The more I think about it, I think this disparity comes more from the fact that the "struggling" 6E armies, while possibly being outgunned to varying degrees are also much less forgiving. One mistake can and will cost me a game, whereasin a similar mistake made by one of my friends playing a 7E army is no big deal and can usually be overcome.

The SkaerKrow
13-10-2009, 17:23
Well, while Tomb Kings, Beasts of Chaos and Ogre Kingdoms have a bad time of it, Bretonnians, Wood Elves and Dwarfs hold their own just fine.

AFnord
13-10-2009, 17:42
Maybe the creep isn't as over the top as it is in a 40K sense but for every balanced new army like lizard men there's a slightly skewed army like VC and Demons.
40k does not have much in the way of power creeps. Heck, the 2nd army book released during 3rd edition is still a viable army! (Many units in it are not tough, either because they were poor choices to begin with, or because their rules simply don't work with the current edition). Necrons is an army that got left behind thanks to rule changes more than anything else.

Codex/army list creeps have existed to a degree in the past, and when DE/VC/DoC was released, it did look like they were coming back, but the army books released after those have not been horribly overpowered. Stegadon spam is a problem, but it's manageable for most modern lists (older lists from older editions suffer, not so much because their units are weaker, but because they were not designed with the current meta-game in mind).

Whenever a new army book is released, people will start to whine and complain about how it's the most overpowered thing ever. But look at the recent army books in both fantasy and 40k. They have been well balanced, with a really good internal codex balance.


Whilst some army book's have got better than their older incarnations yes and Lizardmen are a very good book, I think any possible power creep arguments surely must be diminished by recent books. DE's, VC raise fest and Demons are still the big boys.
LM did not get better in every respect tough. GW did a lot of tweeking to the units (saurus warriors (a unit that noone every used in a serious list) became viable, skinks became a bit more expensive, stegadons (usually seen as an inferior option to salamanders) became a more attractive option, kroxigors were toned down). The end result was a list with a great internal balance, and the fact that it has more viable units makes the book itself stronger, because it means that you can use your army to it's full potential rather than being restricted to a limited selection of units, and being forced to either play around your armys holes, or fill them with inferior units. While I think that there should have been some limit to the amount of stegadons that can be used, that is really the only problem unit in the book.

Hinge01
13-10-2009, 17:52
I had a chance to look over the book this weekend and don’t let the Skaven players fool you with “GW nerfered the ratling guns….”. This book is open to abusive list construction. I put it on par with DoC and VC.

Some things that popped out immediately.

Banner of the Storm: 50 points (so just about anybody and their mom can take it... Storm Vermin, Plague Priests). Can be activated at the start of any turn. On a 4+, it stays active for the next player's turn. When active, it prevents flying movement, imposes a -2 to shoot on all BS dependant shooting, and makes non-magical shooting that doesn't use BS (cannons, stone throwers, doom divers etc) require a 4+ to use at all. This item is simply broken. As written, it certainly can be used over and over again. This means that on average, as a person staring across the board at the Storm Banner, you'll be able to fly and shoot 25% of the time on turns 2-6 (0% of the time on turn 1.)

The Hellpit Abomination is grossly under priced. For a mere 250 points, you get a large terror causer that can charge in a 360 degree arc, has regen, can come back to life, has an awesome attack chart, MR1, magical attacks, and stubborn 8.

Tunneling Teams: For 200 points (in a Core selection, no less!) you get a fully ranked up unit of infantry with a load of attacks that can charge into the flank or rear of your units before you even get a chance to turn around and face them, as early as turn 2! Assuming a rear charge, that is static 6 before combat while negating your ranks.

Screaming Bell/Plague Cauldrons. These things, beyond being insanely good, are ludicrously under priced. The Bell costs 200 points, the Cauldron 150 points. They displace and in every way count as 15 infantry models. This means that even if they're displacing Clanrats or Plague Monks, they effectively cost 75 and 105 points less respectively. This means they actually cost 125 points for the Bell, and 45 points for the Cauldron! For this, you get a T6, 6 wound, 4+ WS thing, that make a huge unit of Rats unbreakable, give a 4+ ward save to the character riding them, AND have spectacular magical effects which completely ignore enemy dispel dice and scrolls... ummm... really? And you can play BOTH in one army???

This is not to mention how good the lore’s are (imagine throwing death frenzy on a 6 wide unit of giant rats. That is 54 attacks!!!) and Warp fire throwers (stand and shoot, every model touched gets hit).

With LM and WoC, GW was heading towards more balanced Army books. it seems they have taken a step back in my opinion.

Arguleon-veq
13-10-2009, 18:11
Well as we havent all got the Skaven Book yet, who knows.

People are really picking at nothing saying there is no power creep. The poster was just using that term to ask if the Skaven Book was overpowered or not. There isnt powercreep in terms of the latest army being the best but there are certainly better armies than others.

Lizards are a very powerful army though, the only recent army [High Elves onwards] that havent been above middle tier has been Warriors. Every other has - High Elves, Vamps, Daemons, Dark Elves, Lizards.

1st Tier Daemons - Vamps
2nd Tier Dark Elves - Lizards
3rd Tier High Elves - Skaven?

At least I hope they are on High Elf level at best but its looking like they will be much better than that to me. A magical gunline with Unbreakable units to hold the line together, sending out waves of Slaves to stall/redirect/to shoot whilst they fight you. Who then explode once they have finished stalling. Then Ambominations to also slow you up and possible cripple your army on their own.

When your opponent finally does hit home, he cant break your big expensive units as they are unbreakable so he has to settles for a few points on missile units.

EviIPaladin
13-10-2009, 18:12
First of all, SB was always 200pts. It didn't really get any better this time around and I'm pretty sure that few people will take it. Just like the last rulebook...

As for BotS, I heard something different. I heard it is a one turn only effect with absolutely no chance of carrying it over. If I am correct about this, it damn well justifies the 25pt drop, seeing as I can only screw up your first shooting turn, in which you butcher my M5 army...

Tunnelling Teams. Y'know, if Tunnelling rules are anything like our last book, I'm not gonna risk giving you a free 200VP bonus. Screw that. There was a good reason why no one took big units of Tunnelling Gutters last book.

S&S Warmachines. Unless they finally gave the 1 wound warmachines a much needed overhaul, they can only S&S if they are charged. I'm pretty sure by the time you are charging, any of these things are going to have been killed off by magic or shooting.

Also, you ignore what I've heard about our magic items. Apparently, we get absolutely nothing good. Every single one of our useful weapons, talismans, arcane items, etc., either got nerfed or trashed. I mean, Weeping Blade is AP instead of +1S. Unless it costs a fraction of its current cost, I don't see myself ever using it. Ever.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh or even non-sensical, seeing as I don't play in an uber-competitive environment. But I still see some loop-holes in your arguements. Yes, Death Frenzy is going to be a nasty spell in combination with GRs, but you have to roll it first. Yes, the Hell Pit Abomination looks angry, but will be eaten alive by enemy archers/warmachines/mages (MR(1) ain't all its cracked up to be). I don't see this book being anywhere near as nasty as VC or DoC.

-Evii

AFnord
13-10-2009, 18:16
Remember how it was when the IG codex was nearing its release/the time right after it's release. People where whining and complaining about how incredibly powerful everything in the army was, how one could not possibly beat all those incredibly overpowered things, how they were the worst thing that ever happened to the game.

Same with SM
And orks
And eldar
And chaos
And space wolves
and....

And we are seeing the very same thing on the fantasy side (i'm more of a 40k player, so that is why I was using that as an example). While things might well look incredibly broken when you read about it, it's more often than not because you don't see the whole picture/you missread something/you simply compare it to something in your own army/armies and find out that that particular army is better than your army at something.

I won't pas judgement on the book until I have faced them multiple times on the field of battle.

dodicula
13-10-2009, 18:49
Armycreep is a nonissue if you are in this hobby for a long time because you will have multiple armies. The skaven book looks fun, beyond that who cares. No one makes their living off of playing warhammer competitively and trying to make everybook "equal" would completely stifle creativity.

Writing these rules is an art, not a science. Sometimes the developers get it right, sometimes they fail spectacularly. If you want all your miniatures to have equal power in the game then line them up on a checkerboard.

Army creep is one of the great zombie topics of all time. This dead issue has been raised by more people than will be resurrected during the second coming of Christ.

Power creep is like rain...there is nothing you can do about it so you might as well enjoy it!

The SkaerKrow
13-10-2009, 18:54
The Skaven book isn't out yet, and while we do have some credible rumors to go on, I wouldn't suggest that anyone throw themselves from either side of the bridge just yet. Taken out of context, any option can seem overpowered or scanty.

Hinge01
13-10-2009, 18:58
I have read the book. BoTS carries over on a 4+, is not a one use item and has no chance to burn out. Silly good.

Lets do a little math hammer on the tunneling team. I play WoC, so have a nice little Warriors of Chaos unit of 15, FC, shields. A rock hard unit costing 270 points. A fully ranked tunneling team costing 200 points pops up from behind and charges the rear.

11 S3 attacks and 1D3 S4 autohits from the Grinder = 1 dead Warrior on average. leaves 4 in the rear to strike back= 3.5 dead Rats.

Gutter Runners: 3 Ranks, +2 Rear, +1 Wound, +1 Outnumber= 7 total

Warriors of Chaos: 1 Standard, 3-4 Wounds= 4-5 total

WoC lose by 2-3. I need to make a break trest on a 5 or 6 or I hand you a Banner, maybe the sorceror I parked in there, and a portion of my line collapses.

Do a combo charge with an ABomb and it will likely be worse. The Math would be about the same for Saurus Warriors, another rock hard infantry unit. Mauraders would be eaten alive.

Seems like a good use for 200 points.

I also love how Skaven players are whining about there one wound "war machines". They have a 4+ ward and 5+ armor save for petes sake (not to mention the Storm banner helping protect them from shooting). More math hammer.

Unit of 10 Elven archers, long range, Storm Banner in effect (and it will be). I believe this to be a likely scenario.

Archers need 6's to hit = 2 hits, one 1 wound, which likely will be saved by either the armor or ward. They seem much more survivable then before.

The base magic missle seems to be the best bet but the Skaven player can use his magic defense against this.

I believe you will see the SB or Plague version or both in many lists. The effects are good and I would love acces to unbreakable units.

larabic
13-10-2009, 19:06
1st Tier Daemons - Vamps
2nd Tier Dark Elves - Lizards
3rd Tier High Elves - Skaven?



I always notice that "Tier 1" armies are the ones who all cause fear and don't take normal break tests, i think if they just changed fear to make it -2 to your LD if outnumbered or something like that they would not be as over powering as people feel.

I've said my piece...

Gabacho Mk.II
13-10-2009, 19:09
@Hinge01,
I thank you for your posts. You more easily and clearly state the obvious (and glaring!!) aspects of the Skaven armybook. Well done.





Well, judging by the rumours, you can have unbreakable units (bell or furnace), skirmishers that can destroy ranked units charging by the front, and monsters that may never die.
I personally dont like skaven (dont like hordes), but I like playing against them, so cant wait to read their book and face them in the battlefield.

I think they are good, but not top tier. around lizzies and WOC good. Which is good.


I agree on most of these points, but I must add a prominent few that some are leaving out when discussing Skaven.

> Ld 10 units
> Unbreakable units (multiple units, not just one)
> 'Spammable' weapon teams
> Regenerating monsters
> A hell of a magical spells selection


Add to this the 'horde' aspect of the army. Dont forget.


IMO, Skaven will be in the same league as Daemons/VC/DE, and I just cant wait for the batreps that will prove this.






Powercreep??

Yes. Powercreep is back in with the Skaven, althought somehow ended up missing Lizardmen and WoC. Go figure. [maybe due to lackluster Skaven sales?]

Enigmatik1
13-10-2009, 19:17
I always notice that "Tier 1" armies are the ones who all cause fear and don't take normal break tests, i think if they just changed fear to make it -2 to your LD if outnumbered or something like that they would not be as over powering as people feel.

I've said my piece...

I don't think the fact that Daemons and Vampire Counts universally cause fear or have alternate rules for losing combats/breaking are why these two armies are viewed as overpowered. Being technically unbreakable helps, that's for sure. But these rules alone do not an army break...well, not in the traditional sense. ;)

The SkaerKrow
13-10-2009, 19:22
Query: Does the Storm Banner affect both players, or just the Skaven player's opponent?

O&G'sRule
13-10-2009, 19:24
an all round leadership 10 horde army does sond a bit of a worry but the guns being toned down and the fact that you know Skaven players will spend an awful lot of effort trying to get th 25+ spell off means they will be less of a worry in those 2 phases. Theyre not Daemon beaters if whats been shown is true. Daemons have a few things that are just jaw dropping when you read the rules attached to their points values, Skaven dont have anything like that as far as I've seen, but then the book isn't out yet. GW seem to have got a handle on the power levels recently, DE's, Lizardmen, WoC are all pretty even.

fubukii
13-10-2009, 19:24
I have read the book. BoTS carries over on a 4+, is not a one use item and has no chance to burn out. Silly good.

Lets do a little math hammer on the tunneling team. I play WoC, so have a nice little Warriors of Chaos unit of 15, FC, shields. A rock hard unit costing 270 points. A fully ranked tunneling team costing 200 points pops up from behind and charges the rear.

11 S3 attacks and 1D3 S4 autohits from the Grinder = 1 dead Warrior on average. leaves 4 in the rear to strike back= 3.5 dead Rats.

Gutter Runners: 3 Ranks, +2 Rear, +1 Wound, +1 Outnumber= 7 total

Warriors of Chaos: 1 Standard, 3-4 Wounds= 4-5 total

WoC lose by 2-3. I need to make a break trest on a 5 or 6 or I hand you a Banner, maybe the sorceror I parked in there, and a portion of my line collapses.

Do a combo charge with an ABomb and it will likely be worse. The Math would be about the same for Saurus Warriors, another rock hard infantry unit. Mauraders would be eaten alive.

Seems like a good use for 200 points.

I also love how Skaven players are whining about there one wound "war machines". They have a 4+ ward and 5+ armor save for petes sake (not to mention the Storm banner helping protect them from shooting). More math hammer.

Unit of 10 Elven archers, long range, Storm Banner in effect (and it will be). I believe this to be a likely scenario.

Archers need 6's to hit = 2 hits, one 1 wound, which likely will be saved by either the armor or ward. They seem much more survivable then before.

The base magic missle seems to be the best bet but the Skaven player can use his magic defense against this.

I believe you will see the SB or Plague version or both in many lists. The effects are good and I would love acces to unbreakable units.

Ok sure if we use the worst missle unit in the game for our comparison weapon teams seem surviveable. Now lets look at it again. Ok the stoerm banner is good i admit, but it wont last forever, and it will probably wear out before the weapon team is in range. Without it the team is toast. And what about stronger shooting? Dark elf RXB? RBT? Handguns? Crossbows? d6 str 4 magic missles? Stragnle root? even wood elf long bows...... Weapon teams when able to be targeted are a pretty iffy option, minus the doom flayer which has a ok armor save.

i also dont get people putting lm with woc in terms of power. Dual eotg lists are on of the top tournament builds and even give my daemons nightmares (among other armies too) to put them in that bracket is crazy. LM are top tier, and skaven will be too.

Screaming Manti
13-10-2009, 19:34
The base magic missle seems to be the best bet but the Skaven player can use his magic defense against this.

what magic defence seeing as most of the magic item's got screwed?



Lets do a little math hammer on the tunneling team. I play WoC, so have a nice little Warriors of Chaos unit of 15, FC, shields. A rock hard unit costing 270 points. A fully ranked tunneling team costing 200 points pops up from behind and charges the rear.

11 S3 attacks and 1D3 S4 autohits from the Grinder = 1 dead Warrior on average. leaves 4 in the rear to strike back= 3.5 dead Rats.

Gutter Runners: 3 Ranks, +2 Rear, +1 Wound, +1 Outnumber= 7 total

Warriors of Chaos: 1 Standard, 3-4 Wounds= 4-5 total

WoC lose by 2-3. I need to make a break trest on a 5 or 6 or I hand you a Banner, maybe the sorceror I parked in there, and a portion of my line collapses.


Your leaving out the part where theres a good chance the tunneling team dies in the tunnel or gets placed by the the opposition in the corner of the board. thats a big risk that many people wont want to take!

People who are going to play against skaven see all the powerful options and none of the weakness and think there going to smash every army where as people who are going to play with skaven see all the weakness and nerfed stuff and think there going to get smashed by every army out there.

As many people have pointed out i think we should just wait till the book actually comes out and people start have games. then people can condemm it if its really that bad

loveless
13-10-2009, 19:55
Your leaving out the part where theres a good chance the tunneling team dies in the tunnel or gets placed by the the opposition in the corner of the board. thats a big risk that many people wont want to take!


Manti beat me to it.

Tunneling teams aren't reliable. This isn't Snikrot or a unit of Wolf Scouts from 40K. This isn't a team of Dwarven miners. This is a bunch of haphazard Skaven who could very well just die instead of contributing to the battle. That's a rather poor use of 200 points.

I do find it funny, though, that to prove Skaven are overpowered, people run mathhammer on them in ideal situations.

"Ok, so let's say your opponent has brought an all Night Goblin army with no shooting and keeps rolling 1's. Your Skaven army with weapon teams, a Bell, a Furnace, and an Abomination beats them. Skaven are broken!"

:p

Lugburz
13-10-2009, 20:17
Slaves are overpowered, because if Chaos Warriors turn their back to them, and get ass-charged by them, the slaves would break them (because they only kill one slave, of course, and roll 11 on the break test).

But actually I've been incredible lucky with my tunnel team rolls my last two skaven battles, perfect position both time (scattering behind the unit that turned to face my unit) ^^.

Lusall
13-10-2009, 22:29
I fail to see how the new Skaven book is OP...

Maoriboy007
13-10-2009, 22:29
I don't think the fact that Daemons and Vampire Counts universally cause fear or have alternate rules for losing combats/breaking are why these two armies are viewed as overpowered. Being technically unbreakable helps, that's for sure. But these rules alone do not an army break...well, not in the traditional sense. ;)

The instability rule leans more towards unbreakable than undead crumbling. Undead troops are only as unbreakable as the number of Troops you have invested in the unit compared to the number you have lost the combat by (which is ususally a lot). Demons tend to lose by less and get a roll to mitigate their losses.


Your leaving out the part where theres a good chance the tunneling team dies in the tunnel or gets placed by the the opposition in the corner of the board. thats a big risk that many people wont want to take!

The same could be said for Tomb Scorpions, when they come up its awesome, when they die it sucks.

Hinge01
13-10-2009, 22:31
Ok sure if we use the worst missle unit in the game for our comparison weapon teams seem surviveable. Now lets look at it again. Ok the stoerm banner is good i admit, but it wont last forever, and it will probably wear out before the weapon team is in range. Without it the team is toast. And what about stronger shooting? Dark elf RXB? RBT? Handguns? Crossbows? d6 str 4 magic missles? Stragnle root? even wood elf long bows...... Weapon teams when able to be targeted are a pretty iffy option, minus the doom flayer which has a ok armor save.



Pick any of those. The Storm Banner makes the teams survivable against shooting. Skinks needing 7's to hit (there goes poison). Wood Elf, same problem as regular elves (though they can at least move to short range), DE RXB's, 7's if they double shot. Empire handgunners? same problem. RBT's? 2 hits with 24" and the one thing with a reasonable chance of taking them down. Of course, they are not shooting at the Abomb. Yes, I assume long range since a good Skaven player should be screening them from anything that can get close for as long as possible. Certainly Fast Cav can get a closer shot but then they will have the move and shoot penalty (unless wood elf as you point out).

Actually the one thing that may take them out is their own slave units. Slave rats do not break, they "explode" and hurt all units within a certain distance.

I also see a comment about lack of magic items = lack of magic defense. They still get scrolls and I believe, early on at least, that the Gray Seer build will be dominate (they are ld 7, equal to a Warlord), so should have plenty of Dispell dice.

Funny though, the Storm banner does not really hurt two of the more powerful armies, DoC and VC, unless they take fliers.


Also, people keep saying the book is not out. It is. Go to your local GW or game store and they have a preview copy. I took the opportunity to do so this last weekend.

The comments that list construction is important in determing the "strength" of an army is true. With the new Skaven, it would be easy to build a soft or moderate build. I am just pointing out potential abusive parts of the list. I equate the book more with DE. You can build a soft DE list, I just rarely see it. DoC and VC in my opinion start hard and just get harder.

mrtn
13-10-2009, 22:55
OK, why don't we just all agree that skaven are broken?

Now, we just have to agree on whether they're broken because they're cheese, or whether they're broken because they're bad. :p

"Oh noes, WoC are broken, they will be the über cheese, and the only crap unit no one will take is the daemon prince, which is clearly useless!" Teh Internetz doesn't have the best credibility when it comes to predictions. :rolleyes:

Malorian
13-10-2009, 23:00
From what I've read the skaven won't be 'broken' at all. (In either definition of the word.)

Kal Taron
13-10-2009, 23:08
The most glaring problem I have with recent army books are too many items and spells that ignore defenses and can even destroy whole units. Sure they aren't reliable but I don't like it when the outcome of a game hinges on a few dice rolls and not the decisions of the players.

Lord Inquisitor
13-10-2009, 23:17
Funny, the 40k forums have it just the other way around :p.

Right now I think that 40K is far more balanced than Fantasy. Sure, Codex Orks is far stronger than Codex Dark Angels, but we've not got to the point where major tournaments are implementing a handicap system. Right now, many indy GTs are giving Daemons a 500-point handicap against Orcs and Goblins. That shows something isn't right!

However, Army Book Creep doesn't seem to be happening. We just had a "blip" where Daemons, Vampires and Dark Elves were concerned. I'm suprised though that people put Dark Elves below Daemons and Vamps, to be honest. I find a really min-maxed Dark Elf army to be something that scares me as much...

Nocculum
13-10-2009, 23:23
Weeping Blade was nerfed because your Warlord or Plague Lord now can hit 10 attacks.

That's 10 WS6 STR4/5 AP attacks...even fi one gets through, ta-dah!

Skaven are now finally enmasse hit lots but not accurate, what they SHOULD be, weight of numbers!

I can't wait to crack open the Stabby-Stab Thing Warlord and starts some epci duel-duels :D

EviIPaladin
13-10-2009, 23:25
The most glaring problem I have with recent army books are too many items and spells that ignore defenses and can even destroy whole units. Sure they aren't reliable but I don't like it when the outcome of a game hinges on a few dice rolls and not the decisions of the players.

I'm assuming you're talking about our 13th spell? Ya. The odds of that thing getting off in your turn are worse than a half-goblin, half-dwarf offspring...

The fact that there is a severe lack of useful magic items mean we are going to get pwned by other characters. Of course, this is fluffy, which makes it easier to lean towards a horde army. But Skaven have always liked there magical do-hickies and giving us useless non-sense doesn't fulfill the fluff.

This what should happen:

Warlock Engineer 1: Hey, Fred! Look-look at this!
Warlock Engineer 2 (Fred): What-what, Bob? *looks* What in the name of the great-great Horned Rat--?
Warlock Engineer 1 (Bob): Uhm... Iunno. But it goes boom-boom a lot!
Warlock Engineer Fred: Won't that hurt-hurt us?
Warlock Engineer Bob: We have slave-things, gen-rat...

-Evii

loveless
14-10-2009, 00:25
Actually, the Skaven still have ridiculous unpredictable things.

The Eshin landmine/bomb.
The Skryre Rocket Launcher & Brass Orb
Practically anything Pestilens can kill you almost as easily as the enemy
Rat Ogres are Frenzied (right?)

I've found from perusal that the Skaven items (and perhaps even their arsenal) are likely more suited to destroying units as opposed to monsters and characters...but then the proliferation of things that cause d3-d6 wounds...and characteristic tests...and so on.

They've got the tricks up their sleeve. The question is if it can all come together effectively.

Gork or Possibly Mork
14-10-2009, 00:47
This what should happen:

Chietan Bob: Should we shoot the boom booms first?
Warlord Edward: No! Send in the slave-things they cost nothing boom booms are expensive use them after.
Chietan Bob: Won't the boom booms hit our troops?
Warlord Edward: *Shrugs* It'll hit thiers as well!
Chietan Bob: Then what?
Warlord Edward: Send in the rest full attack, send news of my victory,
Skavalry retire.


Braveheart Fixed.:D

Enigmatik1
14-10-2009, 01:55
"Oh noes, WoC are broken, they will be the über cheese, and the only crap unit no one will take is the daemon prince, which is clearly useless!" Teh Internetz doesn't have the best credibility when it comes to predictions. :rolleyes:

Well to be fair, the only truly crap units in the WoC book are actually Daemon Princes and Forsaken. Mind you, I'd still run a DP...Forsaken? :wtf:

Sygerrik
14-10-2009, 02:26
Are you serious?

Anyone claiming that Skaven will come close to the brokenness of DoC or Invocation spam builds is looney. Let's look at the books.
VC can build broken lists because of the wackiness of Invocation and the ease of getting a lot of very, very powerful wizards. The VC armies that win all tend to look somewhat similar: units of Skeletons and Ghouls that get HUGE fast, and smaller blocks (or one midsize block) of extremely hard-hitting stuff like Blood Knights. The top-tier VC lists capitalize on the few truly broken things in the book (Drakenhof Banner, Lord of the Dead) and trap their enemies in piles of summonable infantry, then flank them with tough hammer units. Once you're in combat with a unit of 60 skeletons, it doesn't matter how many points your Lord and his retinue cost, he's not moving for the rest of the game-- until he flees after getting flanked by 6 Blood Knights and a tooled-out Dread Knight Vampire.

Daemons are broken because they have no real weaknesses to speak of and everything in the book is undercosted by between 20% and 80%. Flesh Hounds, Bloodcrushers and Bloodletters are insane in melee, Tzeentch magic is nasty (and a mono Tzeentch list can get dozens of power dice at tournament points levels), Flamer shooting is ridiculous. They have no real flaws-- you could say magic defense, except all of their prime melee killers have MR and they have a banner that nerfs most magic. They win because anything an opposing army can do, Daemons can do better, and they can do it all at once instead of having to specialize-- and having a ward save on every single model adds insult to injury.

So why are Skaven broken? They retain all of their old flaws. Skaven are cowards, and when denied their rank bonuses or outside of their general's range, they will still cascade in panic. Skaven are weak, and even specialized units like Plague Monks are extremely expensive given their pathetic damage output and terrible armor. Skaven rely on unpredictable and expensive weaponry to do their killing for them. Skaven lack cavalry, and their "outflank" units are unreliable. When the stars align, Skaven can pull off some really nasty moves, as people have said, but the problem is when the stars DON'T align (i.e. 90% of the time, more if your opponent is paying attention) you end up with a lot of scorched, fleeing rats. Good Skaven players will adopt one of two strategies:
1) Compensate for weaknesses by including relatively diverse armies, so that if one plan fails you can fall back on another
2) Concentrate so much firepower that even if you lose half of it or it goes wrong, you'll still get enough through to do serious damage

From my own tournament experience, the "tier" ranking system is flawed, because it looks like this:

DAEMONS


Optimized Invocation VC lists
Dark elves/All other VC lists
Lizards/Warriors of Chaos/Probably Skaven
High Elves/Dwarf and Empire gunlines
Everyone else


Ogres (:()

Leo85
14-10-2009, 03:52
I don't usually post here, but I see a bunch of omg VC are overpowered. I've been playing VC for about 10 years now and it's the only army ill ever play since none of the others interest me at all. Since the new edition for vampires came out I've had a crap load of games and most players wait for my army to advance to them. Yes, I understand we don't have shooting at all, but man come on, as he waits for me i raise 50+ skellies and ghouls and countless zombie tar pits, then after a massacre I get the "OMG VC are too strong" man f that, seriously if most ppl wanna start winning vs vampire counts stop standing back and throw as much offence in our faces, don't give a vampire general time to raise a 2nd army lol. Usually a VC army starts with low infantry models so take advantage of that! Countless people complain against the Varghulf, **** I mean S5 omg its toooo strong lol, srsly It wont make or break a VC army. BK, If played right these guys can destroy anything in the game but they also have frenzy a unit of 5 also costs 350+ pts so were paying for these nice things through the teeth. IMO a vampire lord is so much easier to kill in this ED than the last, Vamps got toned down imo and our infantry got a boost, Anyway cant wait for the skaven to come out gonna get the 300d box for my bros bday, Anyway have fun everyone! remember WH isnt always about having the ultimate list try making fluffy lists too!

Sygerrik
14-10-2009, 04:04
I don't usually post here, but I see a bunch of omg VC are overpowered. I've been playing VC for about 10 years now and it's the only army ill ever play since none of the others interest me at all. Since the new edition for vampires came out I've had a crap load of games and most players wait for my army to advance to them. Yes, I understand we don't have shooting at all, but man come on, as he waits for me i raise 50+ skellies and ghouls and countless zombie tar pits, then after a massacre I get the "OMG VC are too strong" man f that, seriously if most ppl wanna start winning vs vampire counts stop standing back and throw as much offence in our faces, don't give a vampire general time to raise a 2nd army lol. Usually a VC army starts with low infantry models so take advantage of that! Countless people complain against the Varghulf, **** I mean S5 omg its toooo strong lol, srsly It wont make or break a VC army. BK, If played right these guys can destroy anything in the game but they also have frenzy a unit of 5 also costs 350+ pts so were paying for these nice things through the teeth. IMO a vampire lord is so much easier to kill in this ED than the last, Vamps got toned down imo and our infantry got a boost, Anyway cant wait for the skaven to come out gonna get the 300d box for my bros bday, Anyway have fun everyone! remember WH isnt always about having the ultimate list try making fluffy lists too!

I play VC too, and I take them to 'ardboyz. What makes them broken is Lord of the Dead, a power that a) every vampire in your army can take and b) every vampire in your army can take and take another powerful bloodline ability, as well as magic items.

With Lord of the Dead, every wizard can reliably cast Invocation on one die. That means that in four character games (2000-2999 points), you can cast it 10-12 times in one turn, and bring 2-3 really powerful bound spells, to boot. Yeah, some of those are going to get dispelled and some won't make it, but even if half of them make it through, you're going to be raising a lot of skellies. Five or six dispel dice is average for most four-character lists, along with a couple of scrolls, but from the +1 to cast from Lord of the Dead and the possible +1 from a skull staff on your lord, you're going to end up beating them most of the time in one-die on one-die matchups.

This is all tangential, but VC CAN build some really, really scary lists.

TheSanityAssassin
14-10-2009, 05:13
I still have to chuckle at all the mentions of 40k being the Power Creep source....the two top performing books are still Eldar and Chaos Space Marines, which are....several years old each. The new books have shifted focuses a bit, but 40k DEFINATELY doesn't have a DoC equivalent.

fubukii
14-10-2009, 05:22
I still have to chuckle at all the mentions of 40k being the Power Creep source....the two top performing books are still Eldar and Chaos Space Marines, which are....several years old each. The new books have shifted focuses a bit, but 40k DEFINATELY doesn't have a DoC equivalent.

mech guard....

banewolves, chim melta units.......


Yea...., nothing like trying to get all those guard out of tanks..... or getting slammed by 6 ap 3 flamers.

TheMav80
14-10-2009, 05:48
Orks still do rather well for themselves. Not just using Nob bikers either. Many armies have a hard time killing an Orky horde.

Fenrir
14-10-2009, 10:10
Bloodletters are insane in melee

1 WS5, S5, Killing Blow attack.
T3, no armour and a 5+ ward.

Not really insane, is it? They can get hatred, but you have to put a herald in there and have to pay for him.

I think everyone should wait for the Skaven book to arrive, play it for a while....then decide where it lies in the power rankings. I expect it to be near the top, as Skaven have traditionally been rather hard.

And for those who put DE below DoC in the power rankings - check the Heat 1 UK GT results. DE are right up there with the Daemons - 50/50 split on the top ten.

1. DoC
2. DE
3. DE
4. DoC
5. DE
6. DoC
7. DoC
8. DoC
9. DE
10. DE

AFnord
14-10-2009, 11:08
mech guard....

banewolves, chim melta units.......


Yea...., nothing like trying to get all those guard out of tanks..... or getting slammed by 6 ap 3 flamers..
While mech guard is clearly a competitive army, it's far from unmanageable for most other armies out there. Apart from the very bottom tier (necrons) all armies are capable of dealing with mech guards, as long as you have mech armies in mind when designing your list (and who does not in 5th edition).

Fenrir
14-10-2009, 11:24
Actually, Necrons have the tools to do quite well against mech guard. But that another discussion, for another place.

fubukii
14-10-2009, 14:44
While mech guard is clearly a competitive army, it's far from unmanageable for most other armies out there. Apart from the very bottom tier (necrons) all armies are capable of dealing with mech guards, as long as you have mech armies in mind when designing your list (and who does not in 5th edition).

except it is extremely difficult to kill 12 + armor 12 tanks and still have a list thats good enough vs orks :) to compete in a tournament

Sygerrik
14-10-2009, 16:33
1 WS5, S5, Killing Blow attack.
T3, no armour and a 5+ ward.

Not really insane, is it? They can get hatred, but you have to put a herald in there and have to pay for him.

I think everyone should wait for the Skaven book to arrive, play it for a while....then decide where it lies in the power rankings. I expect it to be near the top, as Skaven have traditionally been rather hard.

And for those who put DE below DoC in the power rankings - check the Heat 1 UK GT results. DE are right up there with the Daemons - 50/50 split on the top ten.

1. DoC
2. DE
3. DE
4. DoC
5. DE
6. DoC
7. DoC
8. DoC
9. DE
10. DE

The problem is this:
1) Bloodletters are resilient- a save unmodified by strength means they're as hard to kill with monsters as they are with infantry
2) Bloodletters are Daemonic-- which means that if you're playing against a decent player who keeps his BSB near the front line, you'll end up having to kill damn near every last one of them
3) Bloodletters all have KB-- which means that most characters should avoid them like the plague, and they can mulch most character-less units
4) Bloodletters hit most infantry in the game on 3s and wound them on 2s, meaning that in a "block vs. block" situation, bloodletters come out on top most of the time
5) Daemonic Heralds are incredibly points-effective characters. A Khorne Herald BSB with Great Standard of Sundering and Obsidian Armor on a Juggernaut is 275 points-- not cheap, but it's 3 more S6 KB attacks and 2 more S5 KB attacks, Hatred on the whole unit, additional +1 Combat Res, one of the most effective forms of magic defense in the game, and a +0 save, not to mention making the unit and all units near it very difficult to hurt with combat res.

The problem isn't necessarily that one bloodletter is over the top-- it's that a block of bloodletters is very, very good at doing what it's supposed to do, and they pay hero-level points for a lord-level statline that buffs the unit further.

Anyways, on to Skaven-- I think their placement will vary depending on the local meta. Worldwide, I think they'll suffer a bit because the top two armies in most areas are both fear-causing and Unbreakable, which is not a good matchup for the rats, but they have all the tools to be really potent in the hands of a skilled general.

Enigmatik1
14-10-2009, 17:32
Anyways, on to Skaven-- I think their placement will vary depending on the local meta. Worldwide, I think they'll suffer a bit because the top two armies in most areas are both fear-causing and Unbreakable, which is not a good matchup for the rats, but they have all the tools to be really potent in the hands of a skilled general.

Based on what I've seen/read...I don't think we can classify psychology is a massive Skaven weakness anymore. It'll be an issue with smaller units, but fully ranked ones. Pfft...:p

EviIPaladin
14-10-2009, 18:13
I always wondered why everyone always said that Skaven had terrible Ld. How many armies have Ld10 2pt troops? The closest thing is Gorbad standing near some Gobbos, but Gobbos are 3pts and no one ever takes Gorbad anyways. >_>

-Evii

Enigmatik1
14-10-2009, 18:15
I always wondered why everyone always said that Skaven had terrible Ld. How many armies have Ld10 2pt troops? The closest thing is Gorbad standing near some Gobbos, but Gobbos are 3pts and no one ever takes Gorbad anyways. >_>

-Evii

Well before their LD was suspect, it wasn't terrible unless you were too far away from your General, otherwise it wasn't that bad.

But thank you, Evil. I was thinking that as I wrote the above post and had a long diatribe about how LD10, 2 point troops affects the game on a fundamental level but opted against posting it because I was letting my TK bias seep in. Let's just say that LD10, 2 point troops are my TKs worst nightmare. :D

decker_cky
14-10-2009, 18:32
Bloodletters are resilient against tough stuff...but against something like clanrats, giant rats or plague monks, they're no more resilient than a dark elf executioner. Against these types of units....they're LESS resilient than a clanrat. And supposing you get off the poison spell or death frenzy on these types of units, the right matchup can mince any non-regenerating plaguebearer daemon core in combat. For this reason, I think loading up most clanrat units with spears is a smart idea.

yabbadabba
14-10-2009, 18:39
i'll only believe Armybook creep when Empire is able to field 5 Steam Tanks in a normal 2250 game. You mean you can't? DAMMIT! - back to the army list drawing board ... ...:mad:

I haven't had a problem with power creep even if/when it existed. This is partly due to the fact I am a bit rubbish at army list writing and actually playing the game :D

Malorian
14-10-2009, 18:39
People that complain about vampire raising lists should try playing in their shoes.

Go ahead, you used my vampire list and I'll fight you with my lizardmen infantry army, or a chaos warrior army, or anything else with a good amount of killy units.

The fact those people will very soon learn is that you can't raise fast enough to keep up with the kills once he engages all of your units, and once one unit goes pop it just gets worse.


As far as skaven go, I think they will have a problem with VC if they go too heavy with the toys (which it seems most people plan to do).

Enigmatik1
14-10-2009, 18:55
People that complain about vampire raising lists should try playing in their shoes.

Go ahead, you used my vampire list and I'll fight you with my lizardmen infantry army, or a chaos warrior army, or anything else with a good amount of killy units.

The fact those people will very soon learn is that you can't raise fast enough to keep up with the kills once he engages all of your units, and once one unit goes pop it just gets worse.

Preaching to the choir, sir...even though I don't run VC. I know what happens to my non-TG units when anything decent engages them. :D



As far as skaven go, I think they will have a problem with VC if they go too heavy with the toys (which it seems most people plan to do).

I agree here also. From what I'm seeing, if you do this against VC you deserve the beating you're about to get. I repeat...LD10, 2 point/model units. Screw the toys, MOAR SLAVES!

EviIPaladin
14-10-2009, 18:59
I agree here also. From what I'm seeing, if you do this against VC you deserve the beating you're about to get. I repeat...LD10, 2 point/model units. Screw the toys, MOAR SLAVES!

That explode! Might as well give them flippin' lazer vision while we're at it. :p

-Evii

mrtn
14-10-2009, 19:01
Uhm, isn't that assuming that the slaves are in reach of the general? And that you're fighting them in the front? Without the general they're Ld 5 in the front, and Ld 2 in the flank.

Enigmatik1
14-10-2009, 19:04
Uhm, isn't that assuming that the slaves are in reach of the general? And that you're fighting them in the front? Without the general they're Ld 5 in the front, and Ld 2 in the flank.

Yes and why wouldn't they be? What ***** would strand slaves out in limbo with no LD to draw upon? And it's much, much harder to flank horde armies by their design. I've seen a Slave/Clan Rat-heavy 2K deployment very recently that literally made my stomach turn with the amount of models he put down. It took him an hour to deploy!!! Whereasin it took his High Elf opponent like 5 minutes. LMAO! What flank? Rear? Ok...how many armies out there have tunnelling units?

Ok, I'll give Pandaemonium to you if someone gets that off, then it's bad news. Otherwise, there's no real excuse for your exploding slaves to not be LD10 unless you want them to be to go BOOM...especially with your General on a big <expletive> screaming bell! :D The units that have Frenzy, which are most likely to not be near the General, are ItP by virtue of Frenzy so no more skittish Skaven. Sure there are conditions to render this bonus non-existant, but I think most armies will find it hard to apply them. Besides, they're exploding slaves...it's a win/win either way against T3 infantry with poor saves (unless their BOOM BOOM ignores armor...which would be hilarious) ;)

Note: Playing break the Skaven is fun! WEEE! These aren't your Daddy's Skaven...THEY GO HARD!

fubukii
14-10-2009, 19:54
i think new skaven will be good vs vc.

Plague monks with a furnace will mow down almost any undead unit.

aboms are also great vs undead.

not to mention PCB 7 of them dish out 21 str 5 hatred attacks...


yea i think undead invo armies/knight armies will have trouble.

Cambion Daystar
14-10-2009, 20:07
Uhm, isn't that assuming that the slaves are in reach of the general? And that you're fighting them in the front? Without the general they're Ld 5 in the front, and Ld 2 in the flank.

What flank? For 42 points for a block of 20 + musician, you can buy a lot of them.

ZeroTwentythree
14-10-2009, 20:54
I always wondered why everyone always said that Skaven had terrible Ld. How many armies have Ld10 2pt troops?





Because they are not LD10 troops for 2 points. They are 2 point troops that, in certain circumstances, can get as high as LD10.

In order to get the LD 10, the skaven must:

- Have a Warlord leading them (so no Grey Seer unless you're playing 3000+ points)
- Have all their troops within 12" of the general
- Have at least 4 ranks (so no single figure, skirmishers or single rank troops)
- Not have any enemy units/abilities removing the +3 bonus for ranks (flanking, etc.)




What flank? For 42 points for a block of 20 + musician, you can buy a lot of them.

And your general's LD rang will extend indefinitely to the entire table?

Also, how long do you think a unit of 20 slaves will hold against most other infantry, even with a LD10?

Maoriboy007
14-10-2009, 21:27
As far as the original post goes, we'll all have to wait and see how Skaven actually play before we can make any real decisions.
I have to admit a lot of the stuff sounds pretty scary, Power Creep tends to be indicated by either gross undercosting or a few abusable items or units.



People that complain about vampire raising lists should try playing in their shoes.
Go ahead, you used my vampire list and I'll fight you with my lizardmen infantry army, or a chaos warrior army, or anything else with a good amount of killy units.
The fact those people will very soon learn is that you can't raise fast enough to keep up with the kills once he engages all of your units, and once one unit goes pop it just gets worse.
As far as skaven go, I think they will have a problem with VC if they go too heavy with the toys (which it seems most people plan to do).


I play VC too, and I take them to 'ardboyz. What makes them broken is Lord of the Dead, a power that a) every vampire in your army can take and b) every vampire in your army can take and take another powerful bloodline ability, as well as magic items.

With Lord of the Dead, every wizard can reliably cast Invocation on one die. That means that in four character games (2000-2999 points), you can cast it 10-12 times in one turn, and bring 2-3 really powerful bound spells, to boot. Yeah, some of those are going to get dispelled and some won't make it, but even if half of them make it through, you're going to be raising a lot of skellies. Five or six dispel dice is average for most four-character lists, along with a couple of scrolls, but from the +1 to cast from Lord of the Dead and the possible +1 from a skull staff on your lord, you're going to end up beating them most of the time in one-die on one-die matchups.
This is all tangential, but VC CAN build some really, really scary lists.

I think peoples problem with vampires is that gunlines used to be one of the most powerful builds, they could shoot up their opponant and they would run away, the only thing they worried about was opposing gunlines or ultra fast cavalry. Now there is an infantry army that won't run away and they will actually have to fight in combat (boo hoo!)
Solid combat armies backed up with medium to heavy magic do really well against undead, but a lot of people haven't twigged onto it yet that yet. Undead also have very little defence against fast cav, skirmishers and fliers due to their lack of shooting.
I'm also surprised that so many people rate VC higher than Demons, when there is really no comparison, a Halfway decent Demon build will waste anything more effectivly than VC can with the sole exception of a lucky gunline (a bit of a polar opposite there).
Spam raising lists are admittedly boring, but against a decent opponant all they will really manage is a draw, the build is really just points denial. Raising is only as powerful as you let it be, the faster you get into combat,the ess effective its going to be. And short of a perfect run of the dice it quite easy for a massive investment in raising magic to only net a few models a magic phase.


The most glaring problem I have with recent army books are too many items and spells that ignore defenses and can even destroy whole units. Sure they aren't reliable but I don't like it when the outcome of a game hinges on a few dice rolls and not the decisions of the players.

This is all too true

Maoriboy007
14-10-2009, 21:34
Because they are not LD10 troops for 2 points. They are 2 point troops that, in certain circumstances, can get as high as LD10.
In order to get the LD 10, the skaven must:
- Have a Warlord leading them (so no Grey Seer unless you're playing 3000+ points)
- Have all their troops within 12" of the general
- Have at least 4 ranks (so no single figure, skirmishers or single rank troops)
- Not have any enemy units/abilities removing the +3 bonus for ranks (flanking, etc.)
And your general's LD rang will extend indefinitely to the entire table?
Also, how long do you think a unit of 20 slaves will hold against most other infantry, even with a LD10?

So in other words, theyre about the same as most non elite infantry ecept theyre only 2 points and can get Ld 10?

loveless
14-10-2009, 21:36
Because they are not LD10 troops for 2 points. They are 2 point troops that, in certain circumstances, can get as high as LD10.

In order to get the LD 10, the skaven must:

- Have a Warlord leading them (so no Grey Seer unless you're playing 3000+ points)
- Have all their troops within 12" of the general
- Have at least 4 ranks (so no single figure, skirmishers or single rank troops)
- Not have any enemy units/abilities removing the +3 bonus for ranks (flanking, etc.)



All true except for the Warlord part - Grey Seers are Ld 7 now according to all reports.

fubukii
14-10-2009, 21:40
grey seers are most certainly ld7. I have played a game with the new book i must say its a amazing list. Playing another this week.

PCBS = amazing
Furnanace = amazing
Lore of plague is sick
Seer is amazing.
warlocks are iffy (may swap for another priest)
slaves are good and the breaking thing where they cause hits is useful for killing fast cav units like MOK Mauader horse
Clanrats are still ok.
Doomwheels rock face.

Enigmatik1
14-10-2009, 21:50
So in other words, theyre about the same as most non elite infantry ecept theyre only 2 points and can get Ld 10?

Maori...GET OUT OF MY HEAD! And I also read Grey Seers were LD7.

I don't see why it's so complicated or difficult to keep key units within 12" of your General. Having four ranks of Skaven in a unit? Are you seriously trying to defend this by claiming that's difficult. Four ranks of Chaos Warriors, yes. Four ranks of Saurus, OK. Hell Four ranks of SKELETONS, yes because they cost too much to suck so bad. But Skaven Slaves? Not just no but hell no! As for negating ranks, what size games are you playing because infantry heavy Skaven armies at 2K and above DO NOT HAVE FLANKS! ;)

Maoriboy007
14-10-2009, 21:59
Maori...GET OUT OF MY HEAD! .


"These aren't the droids you're looking for..." :)

AFnord
14-10-2009, 23:58
No but staying within 12" of your general (and not resorting to dual lines) is not always realistic. yes, you can get a few units within your generals leadership range, but your entire army will most likely not be there (if it is, well then all the better for me!). If your units are as cheap as those in the skaven army, you will most likely have a lot of them, at least if you go infantry heavy, and some will simply be left outside of the generals range. Also, character assassins will be nice against skaven generals *smiles*

Shadowsinner
15-10-2009, 00:55
I heard two big negative things... and they are that

- the magic item list is crap, from variety to function
- overall the army will have an extremely weak magic defense

Tadite
15-10-2009, 01:03
After giving it a good deal of thought I think the following.

1. This isn't a top ranked army. It isn't going to be rolling with the Demons, VC, DE, or I think Lizardmen. If I was going to 'ard boyz (and I am) I wouldn't have it on the list. However, if I was going to play in a GT with comp or in a local league it would be a decent army. The reason is that it isn't going to be annoying to play against. No magic spam, no ward saves, hell it really doesn't have any real advantage at all. Means the age of the the anti-skaven is done and dead. People can't point to you and ever cry cheese. Something to be said for having a army that is going to look great on the table and doesn't have to much hate directed towards it.

2. Slaves + slings = amazing. If I was going to build this army (and am thinking about it god knows I need something else besides VC) I would have 6+ units of these things running in front of the rest of the army. Amazing how they work and what they do. Large targets are going to be scared!

3. Shooting: I think, besides the slaves, shooting is only for the globe thrower and the warp fire thrower. If templates really do hit everything they touch then that can be scary. Hard as heck to use and very easy to kill units. What is worse is that I have no idea how to get them. Storm Vermin are a ok choice but they get expensiveish in a full unit. Clan rats are cheaper but if you go the whole way and give them a standard then you are losing a hell of a lot of points when they lose combat. Problem is that none of these units can kill anything in CC without some amount of enimey being killed in magic/shooting and I don't think they are good enough at those....

4. Magic items are useless. None of them are any good. I think all people are going to take is power stones and dispel scrolls. Very disappointing how barren the book is. Nothing even has character!

5. Characters: Maybe as well ignore everything but the magic users. Only if you want a BSB are you going to see a CC guy. Strange how directed the book is towards a magic phase that isn't very impressive. Both lores aren't scary with the Monk lore being the one I would likely take. To bad the spells in it are hard to cast for a lowly level 2 guy.

6. Rares: The crazy rat monster is stupid good. Hell maybe a reason to take the BSB! Just to get the re-roll on his stubborn. I think the cheaper doom wheel is nearly as good though! Constant impact hits are scary. Would love to get a better understanding of how the warp lighting works. What is the range on it and was it stubborn or unbreakable?

7. Anything that tunnels is good. Being able to to get into the back field and mess with peoples war machines is amazing. To be able to do that cheap is really useful.

8. This is a very hard army to play. Unlike the last 5 armies if you make a mistake you are going to get crushed. You aren't fast enough or tough enough to recover. I think we are going to see a whole crap load of armies on ebay in 3-6 months from people who just didn't get enough playing time to figure out how to use this army.

If I was going to build it: 6 + units of slaves, 3 big units of plague monks with furnace, grey seer, 2-3 units of clan rats + weapon teams, two of the scary rare choices. For the first time in my life I'm thinking special characters. Being able to take the plague monks as core just opens up so many abilities. I think the globe throwers are underrated....

Sygerrik
15-10-2009, 04:26
Tadite, a few things:
Templates really DO hit everything they touch. What makes Skaven shooting great now is the fact that it's extremely versatile. Plagueclaw Catapults can kill T3 heavy armor troops, Poisoned Wind Globadiers can kill monsters and multi-wound models, Poisoned Wind Mortars can deal with small, high-T units, Jezzails are expensive but can do it all. I spent today reading the army book and building lists. I can build you two Skaven gunlines that use maybe 2-3 units in common and function in completely different ways.

Some of the magic items are great. There's a 20 point item that gives any enemy unit in BTB -1 Ld, and there's the banner that forces opponents to reroll successful Psych tests. Where the magic items fail is in their small number (there really are too few) and in the fact that none of them are really game-changing on their own. There's lots of good stuff in there.

As for characters, most are pretty unimpressive, but Queek is worth a second look. Cheaper than a kitted out lord of almost any other race, 6 WS 7 I 7 attacks with no AS allowed and getting +1 to hit and to wound in challenges, and he's base Ld 8-- the only base Ld 8 general in the army. I'd take him if he cost half again as much as he does. That Ld 8 means a lot for skirmishing units, Jezzails and other rankless wonders. Expect to see him a lot in non-Grey Seer lists.

Skaven magic is extremely potent. Gift of Filth and Death Frenzy, the two big buff spells, cast on an 8 each, I believe. Wither is on an 8 and it's one of the best spells in the game at the moment. Ignore Curse of the Horned Rat, it's useless and will never go off. Warp Lightning is not as good as it used to be, but Scorch is nice. Plague is ungodly in combination with the other spells in the lore. Lore of Ruin is very situational. Lore of Plague is right up there with Tzeentch magic.

Tunneling is nice. Nothing in the army tunnels cheaply. Gutter Runners are severely overpriced for their utility. I will take them only if I know I'll be playing an Empire gunline or similar list. Not worth bringing to a serious tournament, too expensive for possibly no gain at all.

Don't ever bother giving slaves slings. The age of massed BS 2 S 3 shooting winning the day, if there ever was such an age, is over. Shooty skaven have either templates or dozens of shots at a time.

Plague Furnaces beat the DE Hydra for points effectiveness. They have impact hits, grant MR to their unit, have a breath weapon, make their unit unbreakable, make nearby units stubborn, cause d6 toughness tests to the enemy every turn in melee and do Artillery die worth of S5 hits to the enemy in melee-- all at once. And they cost half a Steam Tank.

Ward.
15-10-2009, 05:32
I always wondered why everyone always said that Skaven had terrible Ld. How many armies have Ld10 2pt troops? The closest thing is Gorbad standing near some Gobbos, but Gobbos are 3pts and no one ever takes Gorbad anyways. >_>

-Evii

No armies have 2 pt LD10 troops.

Perhaps you meant skaven and their Strength in numbers rule (that they gave up ASF, unbreakable, army wide ward saves, hatred, extra dispel dice and Fear to get) that allows slaves to reach leadership ten if they were in range of the general and had full ranks...

Nicha11
15-10-2009, 06:28
Banner of the Storm: 50 points (so just about anybody and their mom can take it... Storm Vermin, Plague Priests). Can be activated at the start of any turn. On a 4+, it stays active for the next player's turn. When active, it prevents flying movement, imposes a -2 to shoot on all BS dependant shooting, and makes non-magical shooting that doesn't use BS (cannons, stone throwers, doom divers etc) require a 4+ to use at all. This item is simply broken. As written, it certainly can be used over and over again. This means that on average, as a person staring across the board at the Storm Banner, you'll be able to fly and shoot 25% of the time on turns 2-6 (0% of the time on turn 1.)


Can anyone verify this?

My gunline opponents would be pretty much destroyed by this.

Sygerrik
15-10-2009, 07:24
Can anyone verify this?

My gunline opponents would be pretty much destroyed by this.

A lot of stuff in the new army book is pretty poorly worded. This banner does function like this as written, but the way the rules are written, it seems to imply that it's meant to be a one-use item. Similarly, while the Plague Furnace's cloud of death happens only while engaged, similar to the old style, a Plague Censer's does not, which means a priest with a flail might have to make all his neighbors in his unit test every turn while he advances across the board. That's gotta be a mistake, else it's one of the worst weapons GW has ever put out-- and for its points cost (higher than some magic weapons) that seems a little bizarre.

Ward.
15-10-2009, 12:18
A lot of stuff in the new army book is pretty poorly worded. This banner does function like this as written, but the way the rules are written, it seems to imply that it's meant to be a one-use item. Similarly, while the Plague Furnace's cloud of death happens only while engaged, similar to the old style, a Plague Censer's does not, which means a priest with a flail might have to make all his neighbors in his unit test every turn while he advances across the board. That's gotta be a mistake, else it's one of the worst weapons GW has ever put out-- and for its points cost (higher than some magic weapons) that seems a little bizarre.

It's not half as bad as the fellblade in the current book, throwing away the occasional plague monk is nothing compared to having your warlord bite the dust.

The SkaerKrow
15-10-2009, 13:25
*Snip*Dark Elves can easily be built into a top tier army, while Daemons of Chaos are a top tier army in all but the most neutered of builds. There's a difference between an army book that produces intrinsically powerful lists regardless of their components, and one that can produce powerful lists based upon certain builds. From the sounds of it, the Skaven book definitely falls much closer to the latter of the two, which is par for the course with most Warhammer Fantasy Army Books.

Fenrir
15-10-2009, 14:32
The GT results speak for themselves about the DoC & DE power levels.

fubukii
15-10-2009, 14:33
plague censers do not test until they are in combat it has always been that way and still is

the lore of plague is a great lore overal, it has so much synergy.

I think played by a good player skaven will be a top tier list, as always (my 6th ed skaven would fight on par with doc builds/ de armies but get mangled by vc) Now with the new changes i feel skaven can fight vc alot more evenly, and with the addition of doom wheels and other things compete with the other 2 fine. It will take a good player, with precise movements and tactics but it can and will be done :)

Enigmatik1
15-10-2009, 14:47
plague censers do not test until they are in combat it has always been that way and still is

the lore of plague is a great lore overal, it has so much synergy.

I think played by a good player skaven will be a top tier list, as always (my 6th ed skaven would fight on par with doc builds/ de armies but get mangled by vc) Now with the new changes i feel skaven can fight vc alot more evenly, and with the addition of doom wheels and other things compete with the other 2 fine. It will take a good player, with precise movements and tactics but it can and will be done :)

I think you're on point, fubukii. I don't consider myself a really good player and I don't run Skaven, but I see so much synergy in what's been provided so far it's sick. By virtue of my army of choice, I instinctively look for these things in lists instead of looking for the OMGOPEDUNIT. I hope they remember this synergy when it's our turn. No one part of this list screams OPed to me, and that's a great thing. But certain aspects of the list, when used in concert with one another as it's been presented so far to me seem VERY powerful. :D

I'm sure that good players see a whole lot more with these snippets and rumors than I ever will. I may point out things that I don't necessarily agree with or like as it pertains to my match up with Skaven, like possible LD10 on Skaven Slaves, but I run an Undead army that isn't Vampire Counts so of course I'm going to complain about that as I see yet another match-up nightmare for my beloved Khemrians. :D

However, I also am willing to admit that I may be overreacting and will wait until I face the new-and-improved Skaven before rendering a final verdict.

Tadite
15-10-2009, 15:41
Tadite, a few things:
Templates really DO hit everything they touch. What makes Skaven shooting great now is the fact that it's extremely versatile. Plagueclaw Catapults can kill T3 heavy armor troops, Poisoned Wind Globadiers can kill monsters and multi-wound models, Poisoned Wind Mortars can deal with small, high-T units, Jezzails are expensive but can do it all. I spent today reading the army book and building lists. I can build you two Skaven gunlines that use maybe 2-3 units in common and function in completely different ways.


I think the mortor is rocking. The Jezzails... Seems they are just to expensive a unit to not be destroyed before they can get some shots off. All these weapon teams are going to hate hills because then they can't be screened. The Globadiers seem underrated to me. To bad they are in special! Hard to get enough shooting to make much of a difference however. You end up buying a whole bunch of clan rat/storm units to give the weapon team option.

What is also problematic is that most of this is at reasonably short range. You have to have the enemy come at ya to do the damage. I don't like have armies that are dependent on the other guy walking at me.:)






Some of the magic items are great. There's a 20 point item that gives any enemy unit in BTB -1 Ld, and there's the banner that forces opponents to reroll successful Psych tests. Where the magic items fail is in their small number (there really are too few) and in the fact that none of them are really game-changing on their own. There's lots of good stuff in there.


The two LD modifying items are useful. But I think they don't work against ItP..... I honestly am totally shocked at how few items the skaven got and how limited they really are. I can see not taking anything but PS and DS....

So annoying that they have nothing to help the magic phase either in defense or in boosts! No real bound items nothing crazy or cool. Heck not even a way to get another spell....



As for characters, most are pretty unimpressive, but Queek is worth a second look. Cheaper than a kitted out lord of almost any other race, 6 WS 7 I 7 attacks with no AS allowed and getting +1 to hit and to wound in challenges, and he's base Ld 8-- the only base Ld 8 general in the army. I'd take him if he cost half again as much as he does. That Ld 8 means a lot for skirmishing units, Jezzails and other rankless wonders. Expect to see him a lot in non-Grey Seer lists.


I think the moment people have to look at special characters then a mistake as been made.:)

I think it is going to be a sea of Grey Seers and that is about it. The Warlord/Chieftens are tough enough to stand against a normal CC hero from nearly any book in the game. They maybe cheap but what is the point of a dead character? They aren't that cheap!



Skaven magic is extremely potent. Gift of Filth and Death Frenzy, the two big buff spells, cast on an 8 each, I believe. Wither is on an 8 and it's one of the best spells in the game at the moment. Ignore Curse of the Horned Rat, it's useless and will never go off. Warp Lightning is not as good as it used to be, but Scorch is nice. Plague is ungodly in combination with the other spells in the lore. Lore of Ruin is very situational. Lore of Plague is right up there with Tzeentch magic.


Plague Lore is the way to go. What makes Tzeentch magic powerful is that it is a endless list of magic missiles. Problem with Plague Lore is that it is reasonably close range.

Thing I worry about is a army that needs its shooting/magic but can only get it in very close range firefights.



Tunneling is nice. Nothing in the army tunnels cheaply. Gutter Runners are severely overpriced for their utility. I will take them only if I know I'll be playing an Empire gunline or similar list. Not worth bringing to a serious tournament, too expensive for possibly no gain at all.


I would take at least one full ranked unit every time. I always build armies for generalized play and having someone have a shot at coming out of the back field is always great.



Don't ever bother giving slaves slings. The age of massed BS 2 S 3 shooting winning the day, if there ever was such an age, is over. Shooty skaven have either templates or dozens of shots at a time.


Very true. I was thinking more about the annoyance factor. Lots of large targets these days. Sure you are hitting on a 7+ but with a little luck (and 40 shots) maybe once in a full moon you get to put a wound on something. The point of it is that you need people to charge your redirectors for the big blocks of plague monks to get a chance of working. However if someone is smart they don't charge. So you need to annoy them.:)



Plague Furnaces beat the DE Hydra for points effectiveness. They have impact hits, grant MR to their unit, have a breath weapon, make their unit unbreakable, make nearby units stubborn, cause d6 toughness tests to the enemy every turn in melee and do Artillery die worth of S5 hits to the enemy in melee-- all at once. And they cost half a Steam Tank.

I don't think so. A plague monk block is a rocking idea. But is isn't controlled, fast, or tough. A hydra hits people on the flanks in places they can't deal with. It is fast, tough, and hard hitting. Plague Monks are much more situational. Much harder to ever get to use that furnace in a game. Hell if I am playing against ya I wouldn't ever charge a PM+Furnace unit and let your own redirectors keep you out of CC.:)

The SkaerKrow
15-10-2009, 16:12
The GT results speak for themselves about the DoC & DE power levels.That wasn't up for discussion. Again, there's a difference between an inherently top-tier army book, and one that has the potential to build top-tier lists.

The 6th Edition Skaven army book had some ridiculously powerful builds available to it in its day, but was fully capable of producing balanced armies as well. The new Skaven army appears to follow the same model, which is fine (though we won't know for certain until the book is actually, y'know, released ;)). This is why tournaments have Comp scores, and why most friendly games have the understanding that Warhammer tends to be less enjoyable when an all-out power list gets matched up against a softer army.

brawnyman1989
15-10-2009, 16:36
I think that the new Skaven will be like WoC and Lizardmen, they'll end up with a few cheesy lists, but otherwise fun to use and play against. I can now do the Eshin army that I wanted, now that I can bring Deathmaster again. Humans will die die soon :)

decker_cky
15-10-2009, 16:51
If you have a bell or furnace...screening weapons teams from a single hill is dead simple.

Sygerrik
15-10-2009, 18:21
I think the mortor is rocking. The Jezzails... Seems they are just to expensive a unit to not be destroyed before they can get some shots off. All these weapon teams are going to hate hills because then they can't be screened. The Globadiers seem underrated to me. To bad they are in special! Hard to get enough shooting to make much of a difference however. You end up buying a whole bunch of clan rat/storm units to give the weapon team option.

What is also problematic is that most of this is at reasonably short range. You have to have the enemy come at ya to do the damage. I don't like have armies that are dependent on the other guy walking at me.:)






The two LD modifying items are useful. But I think they don't work against ItP..... I honestly am totally shocked at how few items the skaven got and how limited they really are. I can see not taking anything but PS and DS....

So annoying that they have nothing to help the magic phase either in defense or in boosts! No real bound items nothing crazy or cool. Heck not even a way to get another spell....



I think the moment people have to look at special characters then a mistake as been made.:)

I think it is going to be a sea of Grey Seers and that is about it. The Warlord/Chieftens are tough enough to stand against a normal CC hero from nearly any book in the game. They maybe cheap but what is the point of a dead character? They aren't that cheap!



Plague Lore is the way to go. What makes Tzeentch magic powerful is that it is a endless list of magic missiles. Problem with Plague Lore is that it is reasonably close range.

Thing I worry about is a army that needs its shooting/magic but can only get it in very close range firefights.



I would take at least one full ranked unit every time. I always build armies for generalized play and having someone have a shot at coming out of the back field is always great.



Very true. I was thinking more about the annoyance factor. Lots of large targets these days. Sure you are hitting on a 7+ but with a little luck (and 40 shots) maybe once in a full moon you get to put a wound on something. The point of it is that you need people to charge your redirectors for the big blocks of plague monks to get a chance of working. However if someone is smart they don't charge. So you need to annoy them.:)



I don't think so. A plague monk block is a rocking idea. But is isn't controlled, fast, or tough. A hydra hits people on the flanks in places they can't deal with. It is fast, tough, and hard hitting. Plague Monks are much more situational. Much harder to ever get to use that furnace in a game. Hell if I am playing against ya I wouldn't ever charge a PM+Furnace unit and let your own redirectors keep you out of CC.:)


Some things:
Poisoned wind globes are meant to be shot into combat. The reason their range is so short is because they're a second-wave force. You tie up heavily armored troops with a sacrificial unit and hit them with globes.

The Jezzails have the reach to hit basically anything in the enemy list from your backfield. 36" is HUGE in WHFB. The Mortar, Plagueclaw Catapult, and even Warpfire Thrower have the same reach. Skaven short-ranged shooting consists of slings (useless) ratling guns (not as good as other weapon teams) and breath weapons (not the most useful, but everything that has a breath weapon also has a lot of other useful stuff).

The LD modifying enchanted item just modifies base Ld. That means it works for any Ld based check, such as instability or crumbling. The Vampire Counts have an equivalent item for more than double the points, and a lot of people still take it. I think that speaks for itself.

Nobody takes Skaven combat characters in this book either. I don't think the book is designed with combat characters in mind. Warlords are useful for their ability to wield the Fellblade alone, and that is highly questionable since it requires all kinds of setup to be worth it (ie to prevent the warlord from killing himself). Definitely a gimmick, useful against daemons and not much else.

You are really underestimating the lore of plague. It is short ranged, but pretty much everything it does can be cast into combat. Wither bumps everyone down on the probability curve, especially since there are a half dozen ways to force toughness tests, and lots of low-S high-yield attacks in the list (Lord Skrolk, Plagueclaw Catapult). Yes, I would like T2 Bloodletters, T3 Temple Guard, T2 Swordmasters and T3 Chaos Warriors. The Skaven army book also has a lot of ways to multiply the number of attacks a unit throws out (off the top of my head, Screaming Bell, Death Frenzy, Giant Rats, Plague Furnace) or simply units with a billion attacks to begin with (Plague monks, plague censer bearers). Gift of Filth is incredible there, especially if you're lucky enough to get it on two casters; as written, it stacks with itself, giving you 5+ poison. Skaven troops' one weakness is their low S and that neatly solves that problem.

Lore of Ruin is also worth a look, since Scorch is going to hit 10+ models at a time, and Howling Warpgale is basically the Storm Banner, but stacks with it (yes, I would like all of my opponent's shooting to be at -3 to hit and none of its flyers to be able to fly, how nice of you to ask). Still, against high-I armies, low-shooting armies and/or armies with lots of skirmishers, some of its key spells lose some reliability; Death Frenzy is never not good, however.

Gutter Runners don't rank. And they're the only tunnelers. And they're hideously expensive. And they're Ld 6 (I believe) and far from your general if they're in the backfield. Unless you KNOW you're playing a gunline, leave them at home.

A big block of plague monks may be slower than a Hydra, but it's faster than most infantry and too big to avoid. Especially since a smart player will watch his flanks with Stubborn Censer Bearers, that's a unit that any enemy is going to have to deal with. Unbreakable is huge, since it guarantees any unit charging it is going to be countercharged by the Censer Bearers next turn and lose a million models to the 20+ toughness tests they'll have to take. Against unbreakable enemies, that combo will wipe out every last one of them. Against breakable enemies, almost nothing is going to stand up to that without running. The beauty of it is that it ignores the enemy's WS, I and AS. The only relevant variable is their toughness-- conveniently the one variable the Skaven player can reduce.

Take a long look at the Skaven book. You have some decent points based on speculation and what's leaked, but there's no substitute for seeing it yourself. Skaven may not be Daemon-broken (or Nehek-spam broken) but they're absolutely up there with lizzies and WoC, if played properly. The army synergizes like I've never seen in Warhammer, with each part working to make a greater whole.

Gabacho Mk.II
16-10-2009, 04:16
I have to ask:

Has anyone played with an official list? [does anyone have the new stats and/or armybook for 8th ed?]

fubukii
16-10-2009, 05:50
I have to ask:

Has anyone played with an official list? [does anyone have the new stats and/or armybook for 8th ed?]
yes and yes

i got a massacre in my game with new skaven.

ANother game this saturday.

WhiteKnight
16-10-2009, 05:58
The skaven army book is powerful but can easily be handled. Their war machines are unreliable, everything can backfire, troops are weak, and they have nothing faster than 6" other than the doomwheel (idk the doomwheel that well)

How I'd handle skaven with my high elves is the classic Castle Defence formation. I use terrain to my advantage so skaven will have trouble maneuvering through any terrain.

fubukii
16-10-2009, 18:36
yea they they either outshoot you with Wind mortars/wlc/wft amongts other awesome shooting and magic you to death(even str 2 spells like vermintide are effective vs elves, let alone plague or skorch)

Or another alternative is to just punch right your throughcastle with plague monks with furnance/pcb/doomwheels/aboms/Impact hit weapon teams. Sure the average clanrat is weak, but skaven now in this addition have alot of good combat units which you are Highly underestimating. my favorite of which are PCB ld8 stubborn near a monk/furnance 6 of them for less then 100 pts dish out 18 str 5 hatred attacks, and some toughness tests :D

castling works with dwarves because they can take a charge, elves can not. Despite asf the skaven have to many impact hits/toughness tests for the poor high elves to castle vs them.

The SkaerKrow
16-10-2009, 18:48
Indeed. While I certainly believe that it can be handled, "easily handled" is pretty far off of the mark. :eyebrows:

Sygerrik
16-10-2009, 21:12
The skaven army book is powerful but can easily be handled. Their war machines are unreliable, everything can backfire, troops are weak, and they have nothing faster than 6" other than the doomwheel (idk the doomwheel that well)

How I'd handle skaven with my high elves is the classic Castle Defence formation. I use terrain to my advantage so skaven will have trouble maneuvering through any terrain.

A well built Skaven army is almost impossible to shoot to death; you'll be at -2 to shoot everything he has a lot of the time, possibly -3 if your magic defense is weak, you won't be able to flank him with eagles or dragons because you won't be able to fly, and a lot of his hardest hitting units are skirmishers and thus both terrain-compatible and harder to shoot.

You won't be able to magic his heavy hitters to death because if he's smart he'll bring Plague Furnaces that give his main units MR 2.

You won't be able to hide behind terrain because there's a magic item that lets him Magic Missile you through it, his Skirmishers can move through it, and Doomwheels can rampage right through terrain without too much worry because it only hits them with S4.

You won't be able to beat him in close combat because he has at least 4 things that do impact hits (Screaming Bell, Doomwheel, Plague Furnace, Doom Flayer) and at least 3 things that cause toughness tests or die (Plague Censer Bearers, Plague Furnaces, Plague Priests with censers) and those all happen before your vaunted ASF.

You won't be able to make him flee because he can easily make his units Stubborn (with a Plague Furnace), Unbreakable (Furnace or Screaming Bell), Ld 10 (any ranked unit near his general) or ItP (Death Frenzy).

To beat Skaven with High Elves will require powerful magic, maneuverability, redundancy and long reach for charges. If you attempt to castle with any T3 troops, especially troops as expensive as High Elves are, you are handing your opponent a free massacre victory.

loveless
16-10-2009, 21:17
A well built Skaven army is almost impossible to shoot to death; you'll be at -2 to shoot everything he has a lot of the time, possibly -3 if your magic defense is weak, you won't be able to flank him with eagles or dragons because you won't be able to fly, and a lot of his hardest hitting units are skirmishers and thus both terrain-compatible and harder to shoot.

You won't be able to magic his heavy hitters to death because if he's smart he'll bring Plague Furnaces that give his main units MR 2.

You won't be able to hide behind terrain because there's a magic item that lets him Magic Missile you through it, his Skirmishers can move through it, and Doomwheels can rampage right through terrain without too much worry because it only hits them with S4.

You won't be able to beat him in close combat because he has at least 4 things that do impact hits (Screaming Bell, Doomwheel, Plague Furnace, Doom Flayer) and at least 3 things that cause toughness tests or die (Plague Censer Bearers, Plague Furnaces, Plague Priests with censers) and those all happen before your vaunted ASF.

You won't be able to make him flee because he can easily make his units Stubborn (with a Plague Furnace), Unbreakable (Furnace or Screaming Bell), Ld 10 (any ranked unit near his general) or ItP (Death Frenzy).

To beat Skaven with High Elves will require powerful magic, maneuverability, redundancy and long reach for charges. If you attempt to castle with any T3 troops, especially troops as expensive as High Elves are, you are handing your opponent a free massacre victory.

This is probably one of the better-formed responses I've seen on WarSeer in some time.

1) Here's why you're wrong
2) Here's what you should do instead

It's presented very nicely. I don't really have anything to add to it, I just thought it was a nicely worded reply. Cheers to Sygerrik.

Pacorko
16-10-2009, 21:50
Well, yes it is solid. Still, it's all guesshammer, but pretty solid arguments when thinking about common HE tactics chosen and the new things coming for Skaven. Still, even the best laid plans or more devious traps do fall apart...

All, I know is: creep or not, I've never had better times playing WHFB than with this edition, even against Daemons. Of course, I have a good group of mates who are tough-but-easy-going and have no interest in competitive play and the types it spawns/attracts whatsoever.

I also play WM and Hordes, so that might say a bit about my "just take the blows and go deal some damage" attitude.

**edit** Beside my bday's acoming and I'm treating myself to even more rats!

decker_cky
16-10-2009, 23:09
Well made argument....but I have to say: Plague Furnaces make their unit unbreakable, not stubborn. Stubborn is a wrong translation that came from a German book. The rule in english is unbreakable.

Sygerrik
17-10-2009, 00:13
Well made argument....but I have to say: Plague Furnaces make their unit unbreakable, not stubborn. Stubborn is a wrong translation that came from a German book. The rule in english is unbreakable.

Actually, when I said Stubborn, I was referring to Censer Bearers-- who ARE stubborn when within 12" of a Furnace. Note that I mentioned the Furnace twice in that sentence-- once under Unbreakable, once under Stubborn. It's a useful trait because it means Censer Bearers, who don't get rank bonuses, at least have a chance of sticking around if they get beaten. With 2A base, they're useful even after they've lost their Frenzy. I plan to stick my Chieftain BSB in one of my Furnace units, right in the center, to ensure the flanking Censer Bearers stick around.

fubukii
17-10-2009, 00:58
thats a pretty solid idea, shame are bsbs are kinda iffy overal now with the loss of lead from the rear.
Poor protection, Iffy banners, not very good in combat.
Oh well at least they are dirt cheap.

Sygerrik
17-10-2009, 06:18
thats a pretty solid idea, shame are bsbs are kinda iffy overal now with the loss of lead from the rear.
Poor protection, Iffy banners, not very good in combat.
Oh well at least they are dirt cheap.

They didn't lose lead from the rear, exactly. They lost the ability to voluntarily stay in the rear but they can go there if they refuse challenges and they still benefit their unit with standards and so forth from the rear. Look forward to the BSB's unit being champ-less.

Gabacho Mk.II
17-10-2009, 06:39
Well made argument....but I have to say: Plague Furnaces make their unit unbreakable, not stubborn. Stubborn is a wrong translation that came from a German book. The rule in english is unbreakable.


An Unbreakable horde army. Great.

Now someone please tell me that the Skaven armybook is balanced.:eyebrows:

Freman Bloodglaive
17-10-2009, 08:18
The Skaven army is balanced...

*keeping fingers crossed*

Aren't you happy?

Actually I'll believe it's balanced when I see it up against an all-comers Orc and Goblin army under Generals of equal skill and come out with a draw, then do the same against all the other army lists.

Vermin-thing
17-10-2009, 11:05
I played a game Vs another Skaven player, and I got rolled. Mostly due to the fact that I could barely make an army with the point drops (only having two units of clanrats, and all), and poor deployment. (large impossible piece on one side, and an inconvenient hill on the other, all on a 4X4 board) It was still a fun game though.

Dexter099
17-10-2009, 18:29
The Skaven are a very well done book.

it's too bad, though, that a trio of badly written army books popped up in 2008 (Dark Elves, Vampire Counts, and Demons)

At least Warriors of Chaos, Lizardmen, and Skaven are starting to make up for that with some very well written books.

Skitter-Squeek
17-10-2009, 18:56
I am officaly stoked, I have been waiting for this moment for some time, Now we just need GT's to make a comeback ;). I Have not read the whole book but overall I am happy with what I am seeing, Abominations and Doomwheels you will see for sure, but I would like to leave you all with this thought. In order for a skaven army to be effective you need tons of numbers even with all those pretty shiny new toys we get you still need a lot of troops to back em up. Now take your average Warhammer player. He or she is going to lose interest after painting their 100th rat and realise they still have 100 more to go. I am going out on a limb here but all the new skaven armies you will see people pick up will have such few numbers and more big things in them that they are not going to be very effective and Skaven will get a bad army rep. Those who spend their time and actually make the 230 plus model armies will be rewarded. By no means do I see this book anywhere near the dominating effect that the daemons have or Vampire counts but I do see the skaven as a good thorn in their side with all the flame auto hit template stuff we are seeing not to mention the spells. Also one more thing, I am stoked I can finally use this as my Doomwheel instead of that godawful warplightning cannon :p

loveless
18-10-2009, 03:51
An Unbreakable horde army. Great.

Now someone please tell me that the Skaven armybook is balanced.:eyebrows:

Uh...1 unit of Clanrats/Stormvermin and up to 3 units of Plague Monks.

Mind you, if someone maxes out on Bells and Furnaces, they're going to eat up a lot of their points in a standard game. There's nothing scary about it, really.

Sygerrik
18-10-2009, 04:28
Uh...1 unit of Clanrats/Stormvermin and up to 3 units of Plague Monks.

Mind you, if someone maxes out on Bells and Furnaces, they're going to eat up a lot of their points in a standard game. There's nothing scary about it, really.

Exactly. A unit of 35 plague monks (the minimum I would consider taking with a Furnace) plus the Furnace, the attached priest, standard bearer, offhand weapons (necessary for monks), priest's items... that's a nasty unit. But it also costs 500+ points. Give me 500+ points and I can make a nasty unit in any list. And this unit has no armor, S3 on most of its attacks, and no ward saves or shooting defense.

Einholt
18-10-2009, 05:52
Not that I am crying broken at skaven, but using your Plague unit. What kind of tactic does that encourage? Shooting.... yea more dice rolling for the f'n loss.......

Too many things have unbreakable and stubborn now.

But again I don't mind anything I have seen from the skaven other then the Abomination... surprised it actually hasn't come up that much in this thread but I guess you'll all have to wait to play against 2 and realize what bull they are.

decker_cky
18-10-2009, 06:56
They're nasty in combat...particularly on the charge, but they don't have an incredible shooting ability like a treeman or hydra, nor are they close to as resilient as those (particularly since both move through woods without trouble). 360 degree charge is nasty, and their attack rules could easily be written "wins combat and remove a ton of models", but they're only T5 regen. Something gets the charge on them and they'll take some wounds pretty quick, and any shooting/magic will deal with them quick enough. So yes...they're nasty as can be, but they're not broken to anywhere near the extent hydras are.

Sygerrik
18-10-2009, 13:30
I'd rather have a Chaos Giant than a Hell Pit Abomination. They're expensive, their movement is unpredictable (so you can never be assured of getting them in combat where and when you want), they have to roll to hit with one of their random attacks on WS 3, they are only Ld 8 instead of 10 (and there's no way to improve that), they have lower toughness, they don't ignore terrain... Hell Pit Abominations are nasty when everything goes right, but that's EVERYTHING in the Skaven list. Nasty when it works, rubbish when it doesn't. And I fail to see the sense in a comment like "more dice rolling for the loss" since everything in this game comes down to dice rolling. And there's plenty of ways to beat that-- flank it and the Priest/Furnace don't get to do their toughness tests, charge it and you deny it impact hits, beat it once and they all lose frenzy, etc. etc. It's a 500+ point unit that performs like a 500+ point unit. I fail to see how anyone can call that unbalanced.

Skitter-Squeek
18-10-2009, 16:41
Ooh, I just realised how nasty the Hell Pit Abomination is on the other side of a tree grove. I knew he was 360 but I wasn't really translating that to being able to charge through cover. You could lock down some serious land with that thing.:evilgrin: I would be more concerned with the censor bearers then anything to be honest, full group of those with a plague priest and you have some dead what ever you wanna kill save super high toughness models but again their weakness is Frenzy mixed with skirmish which makes it hard to screen them against small flyer units who wanna draw them away. Again time will tell how the book fairs.



Squeek



Correction: Did you say Hell Pits Do not ignore terrain? if that is the case then I retract My above statement about Land locking by a Tree Terrain Piece.

Einholt
18-10-2009, 19:12
I'd rather have a Chaos Giant than a Hell Pit Abomination. They're expensive, their movement is unpredictable (so you can never be assured of getting them in combat where and when you want), they have to roll to hit with one of their random attacks on WS 3, they are only Ld 8 instead of 10 (and there's no way to improve that), they have lower toughness, they don't ignore terrain... Hell Pit Abominations are nasty when everything goes right, but that's EVERYTHING in the Skaven list. Nasty when it works, rubbish when it doesn't. And I fail to see the sense in a comment like "more dice rolling for the loss" since everything in this game comes down to dice rolling. And there's plenty of ways to beat that-- flank it and the Priest/Furnace don't get to do their toughness tests, charge it and you deny it impact hits, beat it once and they all lose frenzy, etc. etc. It's a 500+ point unit that performs like a 500+ point unit. I fail to see how anyone can call that unbalanced.

You are kidding right? The Giant costs 10 points less before mark upgrades, the abomination outright hands things assess to themselves in combat, and it has Regen, You wanna kill a giant? Shoot it with volume of missiles. Need twice as many for this thing Regen IS HUGE. They actually have the same toughness. No that's the problem see, there is this idea that skaven are balanced by unreliability, but in reality they are pretty damn reliable. Not sure you understand that there is a difference in playing in games where you use tactics and then role dice vs. where you just roll dice.

I didn't call it unbalanced but the 500 price tag is not so extreme, you get 35 Monks a Hero and a Chariot. My Khorne Warrior unit of 15 with an exalted costs 500 and is not unbreakable.... other differences aside I would rather have the Full Ranked Toughness Test inducing Unbreakable block that will get the charge off and probably kill a couple of things with volume of rolls.

Sygerrik
19-10-2009, 01:43
You are kidding right? The Giant costs 10 points less before mark upgrades, the abomination outright hands things assess to themselves in combat, and it has Regen, You wanna kill a giant? Shoot it with volume of missiles. Need twice as many for this thing Regen IS HUGE. They actually have the same toughness. No that's the problem see, there is this idea that skaven are balanced by unreliability, but in reality they are pretty damn reliable. Not sure you understand that there is a difference in playing in games where you use tactics and then role dice vs. where you just roll dice.

I didn't call it unbalanced but the 500 price tag is not so extreme, you get 35 Monks a Hero and a Chariot. My Khorne Warrior unit of 15 with an exalted costs 500 and is not unbreakable.... other differences aside I would rather have the Full Ranked Toughness Test inducing Unbreakable block that will get the charge off and probably kill a couple of things with volume of rolls.

35 monks a hero and a chariot is a lot more than 500. 500 was a conservative estimate. It'll be a lot higher.

And T5 is a HUGE problem for the Hell Pit Abomination. Read its rules again carefully-- not only do flaming attacks nullify its regen, but if it takes a single flaming wound, it loses Too Horrible to Die permanently. Most flaming attacks are S4-- at least the most common ones, magic missiles from the Lore of Fire, are-- and wounding on 5s instead of 6s is a big deal. Also, S7 attacks like a Vampire with the Balefire Spike, Chaos characters with great weapons, a Bloodthirster with the Hellfire Sword, Lizardmen characters with great weapons, and etc. wound it on 2s instead of 3s. The Hell Pit Abomination looks good in a vacuum, but you don't seem to get that the game is never played in a vacuum. The Hell Pit Abomination pays extra points for features that are nullified by a certain type of attack, and it is extra vulnerable to that form of attack (when compared to a giant). And yes, it does not ignore terrain, which means one of the key advantages of giants is lost. A Hell Pit Abomination is a study in contradictions. It has increased survivability compared to a giant, but at the cost of increased vulnerability to the one thing that cancels its advantage. It is nastier on the charge than a giant, but it's harder to get that charge with its inability to handle terrain and unpredictable movement. It's in a list with a lot of magic buffs, yet it's hard to take advantage of them-- it can't join units, it doesn't care about Death Frenzy, it's already wounding most things on 2s so Wither and Gift of Filth don't mean much to it.

Yes, a Hell Pit Abomination is nasty. Yes, it can do a lot of damage in the right place. But it has its weaknesses, and they are serious enough to have to take into account. Your theoryhammer is not solid and it's not supported by the evidence.

outbreak
19-10-2009, 02:55
I see the abomination more as a distraction unit. Send it up a flank and the enemy has to be forced to deal with it while the rest of your force advances safely. IF they ignore it it can do alot of damage but it looks like a point and shoot monster to me.

Einholt
19-10-2009, 03:10
35 monks a hero and a chariot is a lot more than 500. 500 was a conservative estimate. It'll be a lot higher.

And T5 is a HUGE problem for the Hell Pit Abomination. Read its rules again carefully-- not only do flaming attacks nullify its regen, but if it takes a single flaming wound, it loses Too Horrible to Die permanently. Most flaming attacks are S4-- at least the most common ones, magic missiles from the Lore of Fire, are-- and wounding on 5s instead of 6s is a big deal. Also, S7 attacks like a Vampire with the Balefire Spike, Chaos characters with great weapons, a Bloodthirster with the Hellfire Sword, Lizardmen characters with great weapons, and etc. wound it on 2s instead of 3s. The Hell Pit Abomination looks good in a vacuum, but you don't seem to get that the game is never played in a vacuum. The Hell Pit Abomination pays extra points for features that are nullified by a certain type of attack, and it is extra vulnerable to that form of attack (when compared to a giant). And yes, it does not ignore terrain, which means one of the key advantages of giants is lost. A Hell Pit Abomination is a study in contradictions. It has increased survivability compared to a giant, but at the cost of increased vulnerability to the one thing that cancels its advantage. It is nastier on the charge than a giant, but it's harder to get that charge with its inability to handle terrain and unpredictable movement. It's in a list with a lot of magic buffs, yet it's hard to take advantage of them-- it can't join units, it doesn't care about Death Frenzy, it's already wounding most things on 2s so Wither and Gift of Filth don't mean much to it.

Yes, a Hell Pit Abomination is nasty. Yes, it can do a lot of damage in the right place. But it has its weaknesses, and they are serious enough to have to take into account. Your theoryhammer is not solid and it's not supported by the evidence.

I have to concede I was not aware that it loses to horrible to die upon flaming attacks I am just going based on the rumors when it was first described. I agree that the fire is a huge weakness to its advantage but you have to admit if I am not bringing fire (which not all armies can reasonably) two of those things are pretty big problems. I don't have an issue with 1. I just don't like how everything and it's mother has Regeneration these days. Hopefully Regen as a whole can be amended to 5+ in 8th edition. I agree with your earlier comment that its like a hydra but I never felt the hydra is the poster boy of balance.