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The Machine 1000
13-10-2009, 09:24
Morning, all.

Just a thought that entered my mind when I saw another thread asking what race would be most popular for GW if marines were discontinued.

I know Guard carry the brunt of the load when it comes to defending humanity, but obviously marines are worth their weight in gold when things hit the fan. Would an Imperium devoid of marines survive, in your opinions?

Radium
13-10-2009, 09:32
They could survive for a pretty long time, but they would lose planets all over the place without marines to take out the opposing command structure. And eventually even the Imperium will run out of planets...

T_55
13-10-2009, 09:37
I think you'll find that most people would probably answer yes.

Besides who needs space marines, we have assassins and billions of bodies available to take out command structures, i'm sure their inventive enough to think up of something....then again, maybe not :p.

The Anarchist
13-10-2009, 09:56
well the Imperium has lasted this long with a tiny amount of space marines, so yes i could continue without them. however the Imperium hasn't really been growing since the HH, so ever so slowly its shrinking and using resorces, so in a tiny infimisential way the loss of all the space marines would fractionaly increase the decline of the Imperium.

also side-real it depends on how the space marines were no longer there, so as to set up this question. if for example they lost the ability to produce new marines, and only the ones now in existance were left then the Imperium could adjust to live without them, they would become a terror weapon used only in the most brutal situations as their numbers slowly diwndled.
alternativly if all marines were to instantly disapear, eg a massive warp incident the total loss of the space marines would be a monumental blow to the Imperium. in an instant a number of important trade routes and such would be open to attack, the loss in elite special forces would leave many warzones in jerproady and then there would be the loss of technology, time spent in supplying the chapters and the loss of their fleet power.

Zirnitra
13-10-2009, 09:58
If the command structure has THAT many bodies piled on top of / around it, it'll probably stop working from the interference from all of them. . . whether that actually makes sense is debatable, but you get the idea ;)

A thought: if there are no space marines, what would have happened instead of the Horus Heresy? Would something similar have happened? Would it have been better/worse? Would it have happened at all?

Corrode
13-10-2009, 10:04
The Imperium would fail without Space Marines. Conversely, it would also fail without the Guard. Marines can't possibly hope to fight all the threats that face Humanity on a daily basis, and even if we returned to huge Legions the Marines couldn't possibly hope to fight off everything at once. At the time of the Crusade Chaos was a far smaller threat (what with no Traitor Legions, Dark Mechanicus and relatively little Traitor Guard), you had the Primarchs and the Emperor, no Tyranids, no/few Necrons, and even then to actually garrison all the worlds you needed the Imperial Army because the Marines couldn't do it whilst expanding at the rate they did.

In the modern Imperium, there's so many Orks and Traitors about that even if the Marines never had any downtime at all and simply went from war to war with instantaneous travel, there still wouldn't be enough of them. That's what you need the Guard for - fighting off the massive number of relatively low-level but still troubling threats. When it comes to something like Armageddon, Traitor Marines, or the more exotic forms of xeno, that's when you need Marines - something superhuman to combat the super xenos. Again, though - even with the massive number of Marines on Armageddon, they would have been royally buggered without the Guard. The Guard on their own would have gotten slaughtered, but so would the Marines.

tl;dr the Imperium depends on all its military might and losing any part of it would probably see it fail or suffer severely.

eyescrossed
13-10-2009, 10:06
A thought: if there are no space marines, what would have happened instead of the Horus Heresy? Would something similar have happened? Would it have been better/worse? Would it have happened at all?

The Imperium wouldn't even exist - the only reason humanity broke out of the galaxy wide poverty and near extinction of humanity was because the Emperor created the Space Marines.

El'Flashman
13-10-2009, 10:12
I don't think so. Without the Marines the Imperium would fracture along territorial lines. Maccragge would cease to function properly there'd be a massive civil war there and the entire eastern front would collapse. Xenos would start making massive gains where they'd made none before and the creaking bureaucracy of the Imperium would cease to be able mount an effective defence from threats internal or external without the rapid strike ability of the Astartes. Mankind would survive the Imperium itself would not.

The upside would be that in the face of increased Xeno threat and reduced central oversight. Mankind could re-embrace modern technology and tactics, make heretical alliances with local friendly Xenos races and maybe even enter a new golden era of humanity without the oppressive grip of the Asartes. The downside is there could be a real chance that the Time of Ending is accelerated and the ultimate destruction of mankind and the galaxy is realised.

Vaktathi
13-10-2009, 10:16
Morning, all.

Just a thought that entered my mind when I saw another thread asking what race would be most popular for GW if marines were discontinued.

I know Guard carry the brunt of the load when it comes to defending humanity, but obviously marines are worth their weight in gold when things hit the fan. Would an Imperium devoid of marines survive, in your opinions?

The vast majority of the Imperium's wars are fought without seeing a single Astartes boot. The size of the Astartes really is insignificant compared to the size of the Imperium. 1 for every world means basically nothing. In all reality, the loss of the Space Marines (sans some dire plot need for them to remain rather than looking at it from a realistic perspective) probably wouldn't even be noticed.

Assuming that the total population of the Imperium amounts to roughly an average planetary population about that of earth (6 billion) and we assume a very small rate of Imperial Guard recruitment and induction (1 in every 1000 citizens is in the Imperial Guard, about 1/5th the proportion of the modern US civilian population to active US military service, not taking into account the hugely militarized nature of the imperium would likely make this much higher and not including PDF forces) we get about 6,000,000,000,000 (6 Trillion) available Imperial Guard troops.

That means for *each* astartes, there are *Six Million* Imperial Guardsmen. And that's not accounting for PDF forces or the Imperial Navy either.

Given that say, each Space Marine is worth 10 of any other men (often quoted in various Space Marine codex's) that means the Imperial Guard need only increase recruitment by about 1/100,000th to make up for it. Assuming this number is actually underestimated and taking into account the Astartes superior response times to conflicts, lets multiply that by an incredibly ridiculous factor of 200 (200,000.00%) and assume that each Astartes is then worth 2000 of any other men. IG recruitment would need to increase by about .0003333% or about 3 ten thousandths to account for the loss of the entirety of the Space Marines. Hell lets multiply that further ridiculous number again by 10 and say each Space Marine is worth 20,000 Imperial Guardsmen (3 or 4 regiments worth each...lulz). Imperial Guard recruitment would need to increase by .003333% which by itself is probably a small fraction of simple yearly recruitment variation.

TL;DR GW doesn't realize that a million space marines is quite frankly a ridiculously tiny number meaning that sans plot need, the SM's are entirely disposable.

Sekhmet
13-10-2009, 11:06
I shall say that I basically agree with Vaktathi.

Whatever the marines do can be done with assassins, stormtroopers, and orbital lance strikes from the imperial navy.

The only thing I'd say Marines are necessary for is as Grey Knights, but you don't need the GKs to actually be superhuman... they just need to be selected just as rigorously. It simply makes sense that if only a very small amount of people can accomplish the GK mission, those people need to be the best equipped. So they'd probably still be in power armor or terminator armor, just not as space marines.

Then again, you could throw 20 pariahs at a greater daemon and he'd probably run off to the warp.

azimaith
13-10-2009, 11:09
The marines make up a very small portion of total Imperial military might and they also make up a chunk of the imperiums nastiest enemies. (chaos marines)

Without the space marines the worlds they fight on would be drenched in far more human blood but won and lost the same way.

The Machine 1000
13-10-2009, 11:12
I shall say that I basically agree with Vaktathi.

Whatever the marines do can be done with assassins, stormtroopers, and orbital lance strikes from the imperial navy.

The only thing I'd say Marines are necessary for is as Grey Knights, but you don't need the GKs to actually be superhuman... they just need to be selected just as rigorously. It simply makes sense that if only a very small amount of people can accomplish the GK mission, those people need to be the best equipped. So they'd probably still be in power armor or terminator armor, just not as space marines.

Then again, you could throw 20 pariahs at a greater daemon and he'd probably run off to the warp.

In my opinion the Grey Knights have to be space marines in order to fulfil their archetypal role as paragons of bad-assery.

AFnord
13-10-2009, 12:29
While space marines are a very minor part of the fighting force of the imperium, they do serve as the glue that holds the imperium together. The mere knowledge of space marines, the threat of them arriving and the inspiration that they provide to the soldiers are not to be underestimated.

guillimansknight
13-10-2009, 12:52
Yep

People will say no because of the size of the Guard but it's the marines who drop pod in and take out AA defences that allow the deployment of all that fodder.

Vaktathi
13-10-2009, 12:59
Yep

People will say no because of the size of the Guard but it's the marines who drop pod in and take out AA defences that allow the deployment of all that fodder.

The Marines aren't present in most conflicts, they just aren't there most of the time. The IG have ways to accomplish these things just fine, like Stormtroopers, Vets, direct orbital bombardments, etc. It'll probably result in more destruction on the ground and more casualties, but will happen just the same. Hell, the SM's wouldn't even land on Vraks until the IG went in there, broke through the first lines, and cleared the way for them :p

Petay1985
13-10-2009, 13:00
using the wise words of others to describe my thoughts - Firstly this:


The Imperium wouldn't even exist - the only reason humanity broke out of the galaxy wide poverty and near extinction of humanity was because the Emperor created the Space Marines.

Secondly i think this reflects how the current 40k universe would be effected:


well the Imperium has lasted this long with a tiny amount of space marines, so yes i could continue without them. however the Imperium hasn't really been growing since the HH, so ever so slowly its shrinking and using resorces, so in a tiny infimisential way the loss of all the space marines would fractionaly increase the decline of the Imperium.

but taking careful consideration to this point:


While space marines are a very minor part of the fighting force of the imperium, they do serve as the glue that holds the imperium together. The mere knowledge of space marines, the threat of them arriving and the inspiration that they provide to the soldiers are not to be underestimated.

Thanks to all those quoted for elloquently conveying my thoughts :)

x-esiv-4c
13-10-2009, 13:07
I'd think that the imperium would survive without the Astartes. Quite well actually. Would it survive without the IG? Certainly not.

Tymell
13-10-2009, 13:23
An interesting question. My inclination would be towards no. I don't think it'd be a sudden overnight collapse, but without them it would start to crumble and shrink. I think it would survive, but be made a lot smaller.

There might not be many marines, but the role they play is vital, comparable to special ops/SAS in WWII.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
13-10-2009, 13:28
Space Marines are the finest of all the Imperium's champions. Noble, proud, and strong beyond comprehension, they have given up their mortal lives in order to become the ultimate warriors. Without the Space Marines to defend them, the disparate realms of Mankind would soon fall.

So no, the Imperium could not survive without the Space Marines.

Also, when GW says a Space Marine is worth x number of other men, it's not a direct proportion issue. Space Marines can do things that Imperial Guard cannot. Not that it would take more Imperial Guardsmen, but they cannot do it. Is there a group of humans that can do the work a Grey Knight can do? I think not.

I'm not a Space Marine fanboy that thinks the Space Marines are the best. I'm merely saying that as per GW's view of the universe that they created and control, the Imperium will fail without the Marines.

Zoring
13-10-2009, 13:46
I think Vakathi has the numbers to prove that the Astartes really are a non-factor. The Astartes main use in the imperium is more of a morale issue then any useful millitary contribution. The rarity of the Space Marine means that they are more akin to Christian Angles descending from heaven to do battle. They may give a soldier something to idolize but you will still win wars without them.

Without the space marines you'd just need more Stormtrooper books to make up the 'elite badass' clique you need to appease people :)

Murphy's law
13-10-2009, 13:48
The Imperium would definately survive without space marines.

There are other races who don't have access to space marines and they still live and even expand their territory.

The size of the Imperium would decrease, but it would not be the end of it.
The space marines where nescessary for the expansion, not for the surival of the Imperium.

eyescrossed
13-10-2009, 13:59
using the wise words of others to describe my thoughts
Why thank you, I don't think I've ever been called wise :D

Tymell
13-10-2009, 14:52
In essence, I feel the Imperium could survive, but not as we know it. I think it would take a severe beating and a reduction of it's boundaries. The guard might be able to do everything the marines can do, but there's no denying the marines make things a lot easier in the right circumstances.

Durath
13-10-2009, 15:01
Hmph. When was the last time you saw a Imperial Guard commander chin an Avatar?

'nough said... the Imperium would collapse without the Adeptus Astartes.

x-esiv-4c
13-10-2009, 15:03
How does punching an avatar insure the lasting of the Imperium?

Master Jeridian
13-10-2009, 15:04
The Imperium could survive without SM's, but GW could not...

It seems to be boiling down to Marine players vs Other players (specifically IG).
Marine players really don't like the idea that Marines are pitifully small in number, scattered very sparsely across the Imperium and quite negligible in the grand strategic scale of galactic warfare.

Yes, it is GW poor use of numbers- a million Marines is a drop in the ocean in a galaxy of a million Imperial worlds, trillions of Guard soldiers.

Everything SM's do, can be done by other arms of the Imperial military, just usually at a higher body count, but the Imperium has the numbers.

As other's have said most of the wars and battles fought by the Imperium never involve a single SM. They are the thousands of defensive wars against Ork assaults, DE raids, traitor rebellions, etc.
That these wars are won without SM's says to me the Imperium can and does win most of it's wars without SM's.

Don't get me wrong on SM's, when they show up they do an amazing job, and the Imperium is better for having them rather than not- they're purpose has got to be 10% battles won, 90% propaganda and heroic legend for the masses of humanity to look up to.

It doesn't help that the IG players are throwing out logistical numbers and wars of economy to back up their argument, whilst the SM's feebly pronounce that you need to punch hard things best to win. Interesting mentality of the differing player groups.

Durath
13-10-2009, 15:09
How does punching an avatar insure the lasting of the Imperium?

Because when you have badassery on that level protecting it, and it's barely surviving even with that, if you remove man-powered god killing death, it would collapse.

Imperius
13-10-2009, 15:10
Earth today has 6odd billion people. Every 'X' years that number doubles.

It is now the 40th millenium....Each planet controlled by the Imperium has Earth-like populations, and growing.

There are countless planets.

Say we have 1,000 sustainable planets with the majority having average populations, some will have more, some will have less.

6000000000000 men and women available for duty.

x-esiv-4c
13-10-2009, 15:11
So by taking away Calgar, the entire Imperium would crumble into dust. Ultra fanboi much?

Durath
13-10-2009, 15:17
So by taking away Calgar, the entire Imperium would crumble into dust. Ultra fanboi much?

Well, more precisely if you take away a Space Marine wielding the Gauntlets of Ultramar, it would.

(p.s. are you really taking this thread THAT seriously as to call me an "ultra fanboi"? LOL)

x-esiv-4c
13-10-2009, 15:21
Well, i'm not really taking this thread seriously, you're argument makes no sense whatsoever. No matter how I look at it. I would like to think that the minority of SM players are deluded into thinking their army of choice is the sole defender of the Imperium and have a neigh offensive inflated level of self-importance in this fictional universe. This minority consider Calgar to be a primarch in his own right (despite the fact that it wasn't just him combatting this avatar). Are you a SM:Ultra fanboi for suggesting that "a space marine with the gauntlets of Ultramar" is the defining line between order and chaos, signs point to.....Probably.

Bunnahabhain
13-10-2009, 15:35
No.

The Marines are an intergral part of the Handwavium needed to make the Imperium stay together.

The 40k universe is heroic fantasy in space, subject it to even the very softest sci-fi rules/analysis, and it falls apart -google Mohs scale of Sci fi hardness. Set a timer before going near TVtropes though...

If the Imperium could conceivabley work with Marines, then it would work just the same without them. Storm troopers ( possibley in power armour) and more guardsmen would be able to do anything marines can.
It's just that working from GWs own references to things like:
Reliability of communication.
Speed and relaiblity of movement ( on an interstallar level).
Self sufficiency of most planets.
Rate of loss of planets.
Rate of loss of knowledge and technology.
Level of Ork and Traitor activity - necron, tau, hive fleets, eldar, DE, other xenos not relevant due to limited area of effect or sheer lack of numbers.

The Imperium can't survive at all, with or without Marines, it might spend a few decades collapsing, but that's about it.

Planets rely on each other too much, and transport and comms are appalling. The reaction time to significant threats is so long as to be useless in 80, 90, 99, 99.9% of cases, and even if the re-enforcements arrive in time, the planet takes such damage in the process of saving it, it's not worth the effort.

All that could be fixed by allowing one easily credible in universe thing to happen: Terraforming.
If worlds can terraform- doesn't have to be fast- then we have a sensible way to expand the Imperium, and to compensate for all those losses. If a planet is devastated, then you can just start again with it. It's not a total loss, it just takes 300 yrs ( or however long) to get back up to speed.
It also makes interplanetary interdependence much saner- short of a hive fleet scale event, you're still going to be able to talk to the next planet in the solar system , just via radio, rather than the warp, and you can still get food, or whatever you need from them. It also allows for rapid re-enforcements, staging bases for taking rebel planets, etc, etc

Durath
13-10-2009, 15:48
Well, i'm not really taking this thread seriously, you're argument makes no sense whatsoever. No matter how I look at it. I would like to think that the minority of SM players are deluded into thinking their army of choice is the sole defender of the Imperium and have a neigh offensive inflated level of self-importance in this fictional universe. This minority consider Calgar to be a primarch in his own right (despite the fact that it wasn't just him combatting this avatar). Are you a SM:Ultra fanboi for suggesting that "a space marine with the gauntlets of Ultramar" is the defining line between order and chaos, signs point to.....Probably.

This is probably the most hilarious thing I've read on Warseer. :D

C'mon guy... are you trying to attack me personally or do you not own a sense of sarcasm?

But lets ask some other questions while were at it...

Could it survive without the Imperial Guard? Consider it can sometimes take years for help to arrive in a system, and often the distressed planet is long dead, or completely overrun by the time the Guard show up. Well... lets say its not outside the realm of possibility for local PDFs to supplant an official "imperial guard".

Could it survive without the Ecclesiarchy? From what we can tell, Soroitas convents are probably only a little more populous than Space Marine chapters (or perhaps even a little less populous), so, yeah, this is possible too.

And even more relevant, could the Imperium survive without the emperor? Well, maybe it has already... maybe he's already long dead, and the astronomicon is simply the result of mass-psyker executions that occur daily around the golden throne.

The point? The question is it's own answer if you truly comprehend the magnitude of the fluff.

The "Imperium" is so large ("millions" of worlds gives one account), no one organization or group is ever going to assure its continuation. Not even the High Lords of Terra really control the whole of the Imperium. Oh... sure... they organize epic efforts for certain situations and what not, but even their attentions are spent more on their own sub-faction of the bureaucrasy than the Imperium as a whole.

Oh... and p.s. I am not a SM player, nor an "Ultra-fanboi".

x-esiv-4c
13-10-2009, 16:23
"The "Imperium" is so large ("millions" of worlds gives one account), no one organization or group is ever going to assure its continuation"

"'nough said... the Imperium would collapse without the Adeptus Astartes."

So without Space Marines the imperium would collapse. But no one organization will assure its continuation. So therefore, you can have the IG, the AD-Mech etc running around but if you don't have Space Marines it's all over.

I don't think you understand your own position on this matter.

Durath
13-10-2009, 16:30
Ah... so, you don't own a sense of sarcasm.... mkay.

x-esiv-4c
13-10-2009, 16:41
It's surprisingly difficult to register sarcasm when talking to someone you don't know through a medium that doesn't easily support it.
Be that as it may, i'll stop feeding the troll.

Given the vacuum that would occur if the space marines did mystically disappear overnight, significant provisions would have to be made to establish a group with a similar role. Would a new branch of the IG have to be founded with the goal to provide the surgical strike capability that the SM did?

Durath
13-10-2009, 16:57
Oh please... it's not that hard to detect sarcasm on the internet... especially when its so OTT.

GW paints Space Marines as the ultimate super-soldiers who consider themselves the "hammer of the emperor" that chant "For the imperium!" as they charge into battle. They believe they are the warrior-elite and the vessel to ensure the imperium's existance.

Thus my original comment was made as if I was a loyalist Space Marine, and boasting of rather fantasical bit of legend where a mortal Space Marine kills a manifestation of a god as a point of reference to justify this belief. A bit of legend that is widely regarded by many warseer'ers as a bit OTT in the fluff (there was a lengthy thread on that very topic here not too long ago).

So, I'm no more trolling than the topic itself.

SharpSilver
13-10-2009, 17:05
Well, more precisely if you take away a Space Marine wielding the Gauntlets of Ultramar, it would.

(p.s. are you really taking this thread THAT seriously as to call me an "ultra fanboi"? LOL)

There is more to the Astartes than a Cyborg and his magical hand warmers. :rolleyes:

And on the topic.

----

I imagine that the Guard would be able to take the responsibilities left in the Vacuum that once the Astartes Filled, although undoubtably worlds would be lost, the imperium would lose a significant portion of it's empire.

Lord_Crull
13-10-2009, 17:06
The Marines aren't present in most conflicts, they just aren't there most of the time. The IG have ways to accomplish these things just fine, like Stormtroopers, Vets, direct orbital bombardments, etc. It'll probably result in more destruction on the ground and more casualties, but will happen just the same. Hell, the SM's wouldn't even land on Vraks until the IG went in there, broke through the first lines, and cleared the way for them :p

Actually it was the Red Scorpions who broke the main lines around the Cithadel that the Krieg repeatedly failed to break through.:D


No.

The Marines are an intergral part of the Handwavium needed to make the Imperium stay together.

The 40k universe is heroic fantasy in space, subject it to even soft sci-fi rules, and it falls apart if subjected to even soft Sci fi analysis. -google Mohs scale of Sci fi hardness. Set a timer before going near TVtropes though...


This = end thread.

Lion El Jason
13-10-2009, 17:32
Read Siege of Vraks for a great description of why marines are needed, every time small numbers of marines became involved they accomplished things in weeks or months that would have taken the guard years or decades.

AngryAngel
13-10-2009, 17:46
Do we really need to keep going over this ? Yes the imperium would fall without the marines. How can I make such a sweeping statement you ask ? They are still, currently, losing even with them doing their best. The guard have more numbers thats true. They could hold the line for awhile. The lack of their superhuman special forces would however be felt.

Your still taking away a very good tool from the imperium if the marines aren't there. AS I have said before with near this exact same topic. Would any nations military survive and do pretty much what it does even without its special forces ? Sure it would, however at a much higher cost. They save resources of the imperium by merely showing up, which when your fighting tooth and nail, everything is important.

However in the guard codex they always totally downplay loss of life and have never ending numbers. Where as in the marines they make them amazingly small amounts of marines where every death counts. Looking at from a more logical angle, you see the truth that both are needed in order to even try and keep the line held.

Hostile armies may face each other for years, striving for the victory which is decided in a single day.

The marines don't need to be part of every battle ever fought, for being in the ones that make a diffrence is what they are designed to do. Hell with the fluff refrences even one squad could often be enough to sway a battle one way or the other. Despite the imperiums numbers, they would eventually run out vs all the enemies man kind has. Sooner, if the marines aren't there to strike hard in the battles that matter.

Hence to fight in conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence, supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemies resistance without fighting.

Which is something the mere mention of a marine strike on a planet can do. The might of imperial guard is scary, however the marines are the shock troops and they do their job well. As much a psychological weapon as a physical one. So they can, and do, win the mental game as well.

I know this is warseer, home of the guard love above all. However, I will always fight the point the marines are needed.

As has been pointed out, the imperium wouldn't even exist without the marines in the first place.

x-esiv-4c
13-10-2009, 17:55
That's a whole 'nother topic there...

Mánagarmr
13-10-2009, 18:06
Read Siege of Vraks for a great description of why marines are needed, every time small numbers of marines became involved they accomplished things in weeks or months that would have taken the guard years or decades.

This is exactly the point of marines; they do what the Guard does - only faster and more efficiently.

Marines were required for the expansion of the great crusade, they did what normal men couldn't. I feel they still fit that niche to this day - I have read quite a few books where it required super-humans to accomplish what was required. Throwing billions of bodies at a problem doesn't solve everything - in the case of Tyranids, it actually hinders.

Norngahl
13-10-2009, 18:29
The vast majority of the Imperium's wars are fought without seeing a single Astartes boot. The size of the Astartes really is insignificant compared to the size of the Imperium. 1 for every world means basically nothing. In all reality, the loss of the Space Marines (sans some dire plot need for them to remain rather than looking at it from a realistic perspective) probably wouldn't even be noticed.

Assuming that the total population of the Imperium amounts to roughly an average planetary population about that of earth (6 billion) and we assume a very small rate of Imperial Guard recruitment and induction (1 in every 1000 citizens is in the Imperial Guard, about 1/5th the proportion of the modern US civilian population to active US military service, not taking into account the hugely militarized nature of the imperium would likely make this much higher and not including PDF forces) we get about 6,000,000,000,000 (6 Trillion) available Imperial Guard troops.

That means for *each* astartes, there are *Six Million* Imperial Guardsmen. And that's not accounting for PDF forces or the Imperial Navy either.

Given that say, each Space Marine is worth 10 of any other men (often quoted in various Space Marine codex's) that means the Imperial Guard need only increase recruitment by about 1/100,000th to make up for it. Assuming this number is actually underestimated and taking into account the Astartes superior response times to conflicts, lets multiply that by an incredibly ridiculous factor of 200 (200,000.00%) and assume that each Astartes is then worth 2000 of any other men. IG recruitment would need to increase by about .0003333% or about 3 ten thousandths to account for the loss of the entirety of the Space Marines. Hell lets multiply that further ridiculous number again by 10 and say each Space Marine is worth 20,000 Imperial Guardsmen (3 or 4 regiments worth each...lulz). Imperial Guard recruitment would need to increase by .003333% which by itself is probably a small fraction of simple yearly recruitment variation.

TL;DR GW doesn't realize that a million space marines is quite frankly a ridiculously tiny number meaning that sans plot need, the SM's are entirely disposable.


Haha real great post and realistic!:)


Here are my thoughts of the Space Marines-

The number of Space Marines are small, very very very small compared to the Imperial Guard and even smaller compared to the Imperial Guard with Imperial Navy and the Titan Legions and so on. I suppose, the whole ancient equippment (they are fixing everything a thousand times because they can´t build new armors and so on) costs as much as an Imperial Army? I could gon on with this list, Space Marines would propably loose the comparision to IG.

But I guess the biggest plus a Marine Army has is that they are fast. Someone is screaming for help, they are there quickly. They destroy the enemy quickly, rushing into combat. It takes years over years over years to mobilize the Imperial Guard, to ship the whole troops onto the planet, to deploy, to build a base and then 50 years later you are ready to start to capture the planet back, which will take, thanks to missing mobility and raised resistance because the traitors became more, lots of years as well. Marines rush in, destroy the heart of the enemy, do not leave traitors time to recruit the whole planet population, because they fight fast. The battle is over quick and the biggest part of infrastructure of the planet is still working, while the Guard will turn the planet into wasteland.

Personally I think Guard is more about finding and conquering planets with the whole might of numbers and gunpower while Marines are the dog that keeps the Imperial House clean of enemies. Marines are more Anti-Partisans like, and in that role, they do great.

El'Flashman
13-10-2009, 18:42
Look I'm not a Marine player by default, the hints in my name, but even I have to admit that the Imperium would slowly crumble without them. Note I say the Imperium not mankind. Mankind would survive without the Astartes but the Imperium would not. My reasoning is simple.

The Imperium only came about by the titanic efforts of the Emperor of mankind. Even without him the Imperium is currently in decline and facing the End Times. Take out the Astartes and the Imperium would revert to a pre-Emperor state and we all know how well turned out. Yes the Imperium may trundle along for a few decades if not centuries but history is cyclic. The errors of the past would be repeated and slowly little despots and those savy enough to recognise the Imperium for the oppressive regime it is would raise their heads and rebel.

Ultimately the Imperium would echo all the faults of the Ork race and it's own pre-Emperor history. They'd spend so much time fighting themselves it would cease to function as a coherent whole. Little Empires and Republics would spring up without the threat of the Astartes and the by time the slow winding bureaucracy of the Imperium had realised the despots would have fortified a million worlds against invasion presenting an ever decreasing Imperium with the impossible task of retaking them.

Yes the Guard could be thrown at any traitors in droves and yes billions would die on either side but even if the Guard could defeat every traitor their victories would ultimately be pyrrhic ones. As the Imperium would be left in a weakened state that would leave it prey to the countless external Xeno threats that already threaten to destroy the Imperium with the Astartes present.

Ultimately even if the Astartes only fight in a fraction of a single percent of the battles that continually rage across the galaxy of the 41st millennium. It is not by their efforts but the merest threat of their existence and use against their own subjects that keep the Imperium intact. Saying would the Imperium survive without the Astartes is like saying would medieval feudalism work without the knights? Probably not for long.

Vaktathi
13-10-2009, 19:09
Hmph. When was the last time you saw a Imperial Guard commander chin an Avatar?

'nough said... the Imperium would collapse without the Adeptus Astartes.

That's why there is the massed might of the infantry, Imperial Armour, and his majesty's navy.




Honestly, the vast, overwhelming majority of conflicts never see any Space Marines. Even GW states this. They may not choose to engage themselves or simply may not be around. The Imperium starts, fights, and wins most of its wars without the Space Marines whether they are needed or not.

The straight fact is, 1 million Space Marines is too low of a realistic number in a galaxy spanning empire. I honestly don't think people realize the scale of the numbers involved. Sure the SM's can do things in ways others can't, but with so few of them, their impact is likely minimal, and these things are then accomplished by the Imperial Guard and other agents at a higher cost in lives, but accomplished nonetheless.



Actually it was the Red Scorpions who broke the main lines around the Cithadel that the Krieg repeatedly failed to break through. Ah, but they arrived only *after* the IG had broken through the first two siege lines and breached the walls, and all they did was clear the breach to be held permanently. That conflict also saw the IG without access to many of the IG's other assets due to the way the Munitorum had decided to engage that war.

The Space Marines wouldn't have anything to do with Vraks until the IG had cleared the way for them.

Lord Solar Plexus
13-10-2009, 19:17
No, the Imperium would not survive, as has been amply proven.


Earth today has 6odd billion people. Every 'X' years that number doubles.

It is now the 40th millenium....Each planet controlled by the Imperium has Earth-like populations, and growing.


Ahem. Stop right there. You're just making up numbers on the spot. Please do not just extrapolate. That doesn't work. Suspend belief, and everything goes - billions of people living in a single hive, of which there a thousands on a planet, a planet that is completely covered in asphalt and plasteel and flakboard and doesn't produce any nutrients, cannot contain or nourish its own flora and fauna...and yet is home to untold billions...

99 percent of the fiction they write has been concocted while deeply deeply under the influence of heavy psychoactive drugs.

x-esiv-4c
13-10-2009, 19:21
" Lord Solar Plexus - 13-10-2009, 19:17
No, the Imperium would not survive, as has been amply proven.
"

Can you cite this proof?

t-tauri
13-10-2009, 19:23
Moved to 40k background.

TheEndIsHere
13-10-2009, 19:36
I think no, but I don't think the imperium would survive with them either, they are just losing, they might be losing slowly, but thye are still losing, I think tha without spacemarines, with resources involved elsewhere they would still lose althought not worse than now.

Then again without SM everyone would die. Even fantasy and LOTR. Cause GW would go bankrupt!

D-End

Lord_Crull
13-10-2009, 20:29
Ah, but they arrived only *after* the IG had broken through the first two siege lines and breached the walls, and all they did was clear the breach to be held permanently.

Still does not change the fact that the Krieg could not crack that line.


That conflict also saw the IG without access to many of the IG's other assets due to the way the Munitorum had decided to engage that war.


How? I counted Superheavies, plenty of heavy artillery, armor and men. Seemed perfectly IG to me. They even had titan support.

Vaktathi
13-10-2009, 20:42
Still does not change the fact that the Krieg could not crack that line. Given sufficient time probably. The space marines were an expedient manner of accomplishing this without wasting more IG lives for later battles. Additionally, it was a breach held by traitor marines in confined areas where such foes excel best against IG. The IG forces were operating under a scheduled timeline that they were supposed to achieve, it's not to say they could not have eventually forced that breach.




How? I counted Superheavies, plenty of heavy artillery, armor and men. Seemed perfectly IG to me. They even had titan support.Air support, stormtroopers (krieg grenadiers are not quite the same thing nor do they have quite the same capabilities), chimera transports (offer much more flexibility and close in fire support than gorgons or Centaurs), etc.

Mánagarmr
13-10-2009, 20:51
Given sufficient time probably. The space marines were an expedient manner of accomplishing this without wasting more IG lives for later battles. Additionally, it was a breach held by traitor marines in confined areas where such foes excel best against IG. The IG forces were operating under a scheduled timeline that they were supposed to achieve, it's not to say they could not have eventually forced that breach.

You can't tell us though that they would have cracked it for sure, and if the Guard become null and void in any fight that is enclosed to close-quarter combat, how would the Imperium keep Ork threats at bay?

A "proppa" WAAAAGH, has as far as I know, always required the Guard and Astartes to work together to halt it, what happens when there is only gunline Guard left to combat massive melee creatures such as Orks?

Barring that you don't clone an entire army of Yarricks. :P

Lexington
13-10-2009, 21:20
Um, yes, of course it would survive, for reasons best given by Vaktathi. The Space Marines, while a fun thing, aren't logistically able to have much of an impact on the Imperial war effort. Similarly, no Imperial Governor worth their salt would consider them anything more than a tertiary threat to their possible rebellion - there's far more immediate and likely concerns. The Space Marines have great dramatic and historical worth for the 40K universe, but as an actual military force in the universe, their effect is practically negligible.



Space Marines are the finest of all the Imperium's champions. Noble, proud, and strong beyond comprehension, they have given up their mortal lives in order to become the ultimate warriors. Without the Space Marines to defend them, the disparate realms of Mankind would soon fall.
Oh, come on now - we're not going to stoop so low as to pretend that the awful new Space Wolves Codex is actually canon or anything, are we? I thought 40K had some dignity left... :p

RCgothic
13-10-2009, 21:44
I think Vaktathi was being conservative. 1 in 80 people on earth are involved in the military, and we're not even particularly militarised. Given 1 million earth like worlds and taking into account that in the grim darkness of the far future there is only war, I'd estimate 140 trillion pdf and guardsmen in the Imperium.

That's 140 million regular joes with lasguns for every marine.

The Imperium wouldn't even notice if every single marine suffered critical gene seed failure. Morale would suffer? How would the guardsmen even know the marines were gone? It's not like they'd ever see one. The Adeptus Terra could broadcast stock footage from old wars on loop and no-one would be any the wiser.

Ah, but who's going to go around uppercutting avatars? Well, there's nothing that powerfist can do that a well aimed basilisk can't, no theatre strategy a marine commander could emply that a Guard Tactition couldn't, no Tyranid monstrosity that couldn't be brought down and ground beneath the tracks of the Imperial Guard.

Space Marines are good at two things: Precision strikes at enemy CIC and bringing more force to bear on a particular point than the enemy can cram into the defensible area. But there's no reason why Storm Troopers in power armour armed with bolters couldn't be nearly as good.

Lusall
13-10-2009, 21:46
The Imperium...not as it is now. Humanity? Certainly so.

Lusall
13-10-2009, 21:47
Oh, come on now - we're not going to stoop so low as to pretend that the awful new Space Wolves Codex is actually canon or anything, are we? I thought 40K had some dignity left... :p

Now that was just brutal.

Lord_Crull
13-10-2009, 21:52
Air support, stormtroopers (krieg grenadiers are not quite the same thing nor do they have quite the same capabilities), chimera transports (offer much more flexibility and close in fire support than gorgons or Centaurs), etc.

They had both in Vraks 2, definetly the former and most likely the latter, my memory is hazy.




Ah, but who's going to go around uppercutting avatars? Well, there's nothing that powerfist can do that a well aimed basilisk can't, no theatre strategy a marine commander could emply that a Guard Tactition couldn't, no Tyranid monstrosity that couldn't be brought down and ground beneath the tracks of the Imperial Guard.


Actually no, their are certain battlegrounds which normal humans cannot survive. Cain even notes that the Guard cannot finish pursing the rest of the Tyranid swarm in ''Duty Call's'' because they cannot survive in the plant's mainland.

Vaktathi
13-10-2009, 21:54
They had both in Vraks 2, definetly the former and most likely the latter, my memory is hazy.

Did they have air support? I remember strategic bombing, but not close air support in direct support of tactical operations. Chimeras also they didn't have as Siege regiments don' have them.

Lord_Crull
13-10-2009, 21:55
Did they have air support? I remember strategic bombing, but not close air support in direct support of tactical operations.

Where have the guard ever had close air support? They did not have it in the Gaunt books, nor did they have it in the Cain books, nor in Rebel Winter, Cadian Blood, or Death world, or any other novels I read. Valks are not real air support as portrayed in the new IG book.


Chimeras also they didn't have as Siege regiments don' have them.

Irrelevant, Gorgons and Centaurs where better suited to seige warfare anyway.

Rob'
13-10-2009, 21:55
Well, I'm sure the imperium would survive without any space marines presence. That includes the bad ones. Especially the bad ones. No dark crusades, etc...

What, you meant loyalists?

Sekhmet
13-10-2009, 21:56
Ah, but who's going to go around uppercutting avatars? Well, there's nothing that powerfist can do that a well aimed basilisk can't
Basilisks don't have arms, so they actually couldn't uppercut avatars, and I'm pretty sure the only way to beat an avatar is an uppercut via powerfist.



Space Marines are good at two things: Precision strikes at enemy CIC and bringing more force to bear on a particular point than the enemy can cram into the defensible area. But there's no reason why Storm Troopers in power armour armed with bolters couldn't be nearly as good.
There's no reason a well aimed... or even a poorly aimed... lance strike from orbit can't accomplish this either.

Lord_Crull
13-10-2009, 21:57
There's no reason a well aimed... or even a poorly aimed... lance strike from orbit can't accomplish this either.

Again, I note my ''Duty Call's'' example does nobody notice that? Their are some battlegrounds where normal humans simply can't survive.

Raka
13-10-2009, 22:00
Out of everything to disregard, i choose the 'one astartes per planet'

Why? Because, as you have said, it is stupid. A matter of scale.

Perhaps each chapter is 10,000 marines or something. Perhaps there are ONLY 100,000 populated worlds instead of a million. Perhaps only 10,000 worlds. Wouldnt bug me at all.

Caiphas Cain
13-10-2009, 22:00
How does punching an avatar insure the lasting of the Imperium?

Lol :D (Extra Words)

Lord_Crull
13-10-2009, 22:03
Out of everything to disregard, i choose the 'one astartes per planet'

Why? Because, as you have said, it is stupid. A matter of scale.

Perhaps each chapter is 10,000 marines or something. Perhaps there are ONLY 100,000 populated worlds instead of a million. Perhaps only 10,000 worlds. Wouldnt bug me at all.

While first of all I agree with you that the number needs to be upped. This background is justified in (groan) Brothers of the Snake. Everyone knows that I hate bringing up that novel, but in that book one space marine is usualy enough to deal with the local pirates.

RCgothic
13-10-2009, 22:04
They did not have it [close air support] in the Gaunt books

In the step cities of Ancreon Sextus.
On Gereon, assaulting the hive city.
On Enothis, covering the retreat.

Some examples of close air support.

Lord_Crull
13-10-2009, 22:05
In the step cities of Ancreon Sextus.
On Gereon, assaulting the hive city.
On Enothis, covering the retreat.

Some examples of close air support.

That's nice, now compare that to the vast majority of battles where they did not have close air support.;)

Oh, Gereon did not have an hive city BTW. And Double Eagle is not a Guard novel, despite what the Phantine claim.

Vaktathi
13-10-2009, 22:09
Where have the guard ever had close air support? They did not have it in the Gaunt books, nor did they have it in the Cain books, nor in Rebel Winter, Cadian Blood, or Death world, or any other novels I read. Valks are not real air support as portrayed in the new IG book. Thunderbolts, Vultures, Valkyries, Vendettas, Lightnings, etc are all capable of (or designed for) close air support.




Irrelevant, Gorgons and Centaurs where better suited to seige warfare anyway.

Not really. There's a huge difference between dumping 50 dudes out of a massive crawler and a mobile chimera that provides organic fire support and greater flexibility to smaller elements of maneuver. *huge* tactical differences.

Lord_Crull
13-10-2009, 22:10
Thunderbolts, Vultures, Valkyries, Vendettas, Lightnings, etc are all capable of (or designed for) close air support.


That's not what I was asking, when was it the last time we saw it consistantly in the fluff? In fact the Valks and variants really only are issued to special drop regiments.



Not really. There's a huge difference between dumping 50 dudes out of a massive crawler and a mobile chimera that provides organic fire support and greater flexibility to smaller elements of maneuver. *huge* tactical differences.

In open warfare yes, in trench warfare the Gorgon is better.

Vaktathi
13-10-2009, 22:14
That's not what I was asking, when was it the last time we saw it consistantly in the fluff? In fact the Valks and variants really only are issued to special drop regiments. Just because it doesn't feature prominently in Black Library doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's clear from the fluff behind these units that they often engage in close air support. If you are going by BL fluff, then vindicators or land speeders might as well not even exist for as often as they are mentioned.




In open warfare yes, in trench warfare the Gorgon is better.They are a bulk transport for infantry assaults. Chimeras can work just as well for siege warfare for penetrating enemy lines and attacking the rear instead of broadly attacking the lines and dumping 50 dudes straight into a trench.

Marshal2Crusaders
13-10-2009, 22:16
Not really. There's a huge difference between dumping 50 dudes out of a massive crawler and a mobile chimera that provides organic fire support and greater flexibility to smaller elements of maneuver. *huge* tactical differences.

This is right.



In open warfare yes, in trench warfare the Gorgon is better.
This is wrong. It is a big open-topped tub, one shell to the inside and you have lost a whole platoon, lets be conservative and say some of the other bodies stopped the shrapnel from killing everyone. Higgins boats were only used because it was the only thing that would work, not because it was efficient. It just did what we needed it to do, and the gorgon is just a rolling higgins boat, it cant continue to move with the unit once it gets in the thick of it, all of its weapons are forward facing with limited traversing, AND ITS AN OPEN TOPPED TUB!!! The shells go in and meat comes out, its thematic as hell, sure, but it make no sense attacking a fortified wall that has a clear LOS into the bay.

Sekhmet
13-10-2009, 22:24
Actually no, their are certain battlegrounds which normal humans cannot survive. Cain even notes that the Guard cannot finish pursing the rest of the Tyranid swarm in ''Duty Call's'' because they cannot survive in the plant's mainland.

I haven't read "Duty Call's", but I don't think that's the title of the book. There is no reason that a human in power armor could not survive in a place that a space marine in power armor could survive. And in any case, naval support would handle Tyranids… you only need one ship in orbit.

Basically, for a large majority of the time, an orbital fleet will obliterate standing armies. The most you'd see in the fluff is trying to retake crucial facilities or hives that you don't want to destroy for some reason or another.

Unlike what the tabletop would have you believe, the actual nature of land battles will be small units in urban or dense jungle terrain. In almost every other situation, aerospace superiority means victory over ground forces that can't retaliate at all.

Gaunt actually mentions this in one of the more recent books, armor of contempt I believe, where they can't simply bomb the enemy stronghold into oblivion because they're holding a holy ste that's apparently worth more than hundreds or thousands of lives.

Again, as Vaktathi noted, frequency in the fluff doesn't mean anything. How fun would it be to read about the Imperial Navy bombing a Chaos army into oblivion from orbit?

Naval Officer: Three traitor titans, six armored divisions, ten infantry divisions and approximately one company of traitor marines have been located on the surface.
Captain: Arm lance batteries and drop the titans first, we wouldn't want any stray turbolasers reaching us in high orbit.
-- moments pass, a few flashes of light are seen. --
NO: Targets destroyed.
Capt: Standard target priority for the rest, but make sure you kill the traitor astartes. I shall retire to my quarters, inform me when the bombardment is complete.
-- an hour later and everything on the battlefield is dead. --

RCgothic
13-10-2009, 22:26
Imperial Navy assets are also mentioned as being deployed on Jago, they just aren't helping the ghosts. They are also mentioned in Death or Glory, but again not in direct support of Cain. Whether or not IG get air support is pretty irrelevant though, as marines benefit or don't just the same as the guardsmen.

Lord_Crull
13-10-2009, 22:29
Just because it doesn't feature prominently in Black Library doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's clear from the fluff behind these units that they often engage in close air support. If you are going by BL fluff, then vindicators or land speeders might as well not even exist for as often as they are mentioned.


No they are mentioned and used only in certain situations. Vindicators for seige for example.

Regardless, since Krieg are not Elysians, they do not get Valks. Simple as that. That's not how the Krieg operate and is not unusual at all for them.



Again, as Vaktathi noted, frequency in the fluff doesn't mean anything. How fun would it be to read about the Imperial Navy bombing a Chaos army into oblivion from orbit?


No, frequency in fluff is everything, otherwise I can claim all marines have multi-lasers.



They are a bulk transport for infantry assaults. Chimeras can work just as well for siege warfare for penetrating enemy lines and attacking the rear instead of broadly attacking the lines and dumping 50 dudes straight into a trench.

Considering the heavy firepower of trench lines in 40k, I say quanity of troops is better than quality in this case. Consdering that nature of Vraks, deep prenatration behind enemy lines may not have been too sucessful. Regardless I will have to dig out my copy of Vraks 1.

EDIT: Chimeras are stated to be abandoned by the seige regiments, not the armored regiments that where stated to exist on Vraks. The Gorgon's roles appared to only carry men for special assaults to take breaches through sheer numbers. The Chimera appearantly used used for deep breakthrough while the Gorgon was used by the Seige regiments for massed assaults.\

From this I can conclude that the Krieg regiments did posses Chimeras that where used for deep breakthroughts. While the Gorgons where used for special mass breach attacks. Just as both where made for.



This is wrong. It is a big open-topped tub, one shell to the inside and you have lost a whole platoon, lets be conservative and say some of the other bodies stopped the shrapnel from killing everyone. Higgins boats were only used because it was the only thing that would work, not because it was efficient. It just did what we needed it to do, and the gorgon is just a rolling higgins boat, it cant continue to move with the unit once it gets in the thick of it, all of its weapons are forward facing with limited traversing, AND ITS AN OPEN TOPPED TUB!!! The shells go in and meat comes out, its thematic as hell, sure, but it make no sense attacking a fortified wall that has a clear LOS into the bay.

Actually no, closed versions of Gorgons exist.


I haven't read "Duty Call's", but I don't think that's the title of the book. There is no reason that a human in power armor could not survive in a place that a space marine in power armor could survive. And in any case, naval support would handle Tyranids… you only need one ship in orbit.


1. Yes it is, I am looking at the cover right now.

2. There where Sororitas on the planet, but Cain says only the Astartes can do it. Implying that sealed power armor is not enough.

3. Read the book, the atomospheare messed up orbital targeting and imaging in the deepest parts of the planet and they could not be sure.

As for the whole issue of the Imperial Navy, their is a reason that opposing fleets exist.

KingDeath
13-10-2009, 23:08
How i see it,
the small number of marines isnt that bad. They are highly mobile ( through strike cruisers, rapid strike vessels...such stuff ) and not burdened by the cumbersone imperial administration, which helps in that regard.

Then they arent used to win huge battles nor is that their primary purpose. Space Marines have always been called the scalpel, in contrast to the IG hammer. You have a particulary annoying Whaaghboss/Farseer/Necron Lord which needs to be taken out but Stormtroopers are not an option ( they are still human after all ) ?

Thats where you call the Space marines. They arrive within a few weeks and one droppod/ teleport assault latater the hostile leader is dead and the marines are back on their ship, long before they can be bogged down by superior enemy numbers. Then you send in the IG to destroy the weakened/ disorganised enemy.

So, would the disapearance of the Spacemarines have an imidiate effect? No, probably not. Imperial armies would still fight on countless planets. Sometimes they would win, sometimes they would lose. The problem is that their fight becomes more difficult. Headsmasha the Whaaghboss is still alive ( and has some nice stormtrooper heads on his bosspole :D )and to start his Whaagh, that particulary Eldar witch is still running around to plot against the Imperium and the Necron Lord just earned the "Best Harvester" award from his C'Tan :D

Mánagarmr
13-10-2009, 23:12
Oh, come on now - we're not going to stoop so low as to pretend that the awful new Space Wolves Codex is actually canon or anything, are we? I thought 40K had some dignity left...

Now that was just brutal.

He manages to ignore cited sources and insult the people who would employ them all in one fell-swoop!

Impressive, isn't it? :rolleyes:

Lexington
13-10-2009, 23:16
He manages to ignore cited sources and insult the people who would employ them all in one fell-swoop!
Incorrect - no offense is implied or meant to those who're doing the citing. I'm merely insulting the new Space Wolf Codex, which is a pathetic and stupid book.

Mánagarmr
13-10-2009, 23:21
Incorrect - no offense is implied or meant to those who're doing the citing. I'm merely insulting the new Space Wolf Codex, which is a pathetic and stupid book.

That's your opinion, and equally insulting to those who like it.

The source is there regardless, sorry you can't pick and choose when making an argument based on fluff.

Vaktathi
13-10-2009, 23:26
One can however weight it. Clearly an extravagant phrase as the one quoted from the SW codex could be taken as propaganda and exaltation of a particular army, or how the Space Marines see themselves as opposed to what reality may be.

Lord_Crull
13-10-2009, 23:29
That's your opinion, and equally insulting to those who like it.

The source is there regardless, sorry you can't pick and choose when making an argument based on fluff.


Yes he can.



"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.


I'm not saying I don't like the Space Wolves codex, I am just saying he is entitled to his opinion.

Lexington
13-10-2009, 23:30
The source is there regardless, sorry you can't pick and choose when making an argument based on fluff.
I'm not ignoring it, but like others here, I just don't believe it, in so much as being able to believe things about a contradictory, multi-author fictional universe is relevant.

GW can declare that the Imperium would fall apart without the undying vigilance of the Adeptus Astartes, but they've otherwise constructed the Imperium, the Space Marines and the entire 40K universe in such a way that the Space Marines can only be judged to be superfluous to the military defense of the Imperium of Man. Thus, unless one wants to posit consequences to the elimination of the Space Marines that are tantamount to magical spells of binding, the Imperium can be said to be able to survive without the Space Marines.

Tymell
14-10-2009, 00:18
The source is there regardless, sorry you can't pick and choose when making an argument based on fluff.

You can, however, critique a source. It's basic History: any source can only be considered within the context of it's nature, origin and purpose.

That original quote from the Space Wolves book -is- clearly from a biased source, whatever you might think of the codex itself specifically. Many background material sources are, and must be taken carefully, in context. In this case, the wording makes it sound like an in-universe piece.

So really, no, I don't think it should be used as absolute evidence to answer the original question. As it happens, I -do- think space marines are a necessary part of the Imperium as we know it, and that it would suffer badly without them. Their low numbers limits their role, but also the potential backlash, a lesson they learned from the Horus Heresy.

Mánagarmr
14-10-2009, 00:34
You can, however, critique a source. It's basic History: any source can only be considered within the context of it's nature, origin and purpose.

That original quote from the Space Wolves book -is- clearly from a biased source, whatever you might think of the codex itself specifically. Many background material sources are, and must be taken carefully, in context. In this case, the wording makes it sound like an in-universe piece.

So all codexes, and novels then - by that argument, are void of being a proper source, as they're all biased? You've just eliminated almost every fluff source in existence.

Mánagarmr
14-10-2009, 00:39
On a different note, Abaddon has gone unopposed in the Cadian region - each Black Crusade has accomplished its goal, and at the moment, he has a solid foothold on Cadia itself.

With Astartes backing, he is still managing to fight his way into the void, what chance would Guard alone have, against traitor marines at that?

Or is this another problem that throwing billions of bodies at will fix as well?

RCgothic
14-10-2009, 00:52
Yes, it's another problem that throwing trillions of bodies at will fix.

Vaktathi
14-10-2009, 00:54
On a different note, Abaddon has gone unopposed in the Cadian region - each Black Crusade has accomplished its goal, and at the moment, he has a solid foothold on Cadia itself.

With Astartes backing, he is still managing to fight his way into the void, what chance would Guard alone have, against traitor marines at that?

Or is this another problem that throwing billions of bodies at will fix as well?

Notice that Abaddon doesn't generally directly confront the Imperial Guard in open battle, he strikes and then leaves. The conflict described in the rulebook is a prime example of this, where as soon as the Imperial Guard arrives he leaves along with a select few of his comrades and the remaining Chaos forces are slowly crushed. Granted it was done to draw the IG away from elsewhere, but even Abaddon doesn't sit there and fight head on with the Imperial Guard.

Lord_Crull
14-10-2009, 01:00
Notice that Abaddon doesn't generally directly confront the Imperial Guard in open battle, he strikes and then leaves. The conflict described in the rulebook is a prime example of this, where as soon as the Imperial Guard arrives he leaves along with a select few of his comrades and the remaining Chaos forces are slowly crushed. Granted it was done to draw the IG away from elsewhere, but even Abaddon doesn't sit there and fight head on with the Imperial Guard.

No, Abbadon won at Cadia, he beat the Cadians, I was there at the Summer campaign. I read the Newsletters and Final results. We won. Chaos won for once. We took the Imperium head on and won. I don't care what anyone says, I was there.

Vaktathi
14-10-2009, 01:02
No, Abbadon won at Cadia, he beat the Cadians, I was there at the Summer campaign. I read the Newsletters and Final results. We won. Chaos won for once. We took the Imperium head on and won. I don't care what anyone says, I was there.
I'm not familiar with that at all, so I can't comment. All I can go off is what I have read so far.

That said, wasn't that also back when Lost and the Damned was a legal list? Such armies would comprise the vast majority of Chaos forces and essentially form a counterpart to the Imperial Guard and also undertake the vast majority of the fighting as well.

Lusall
14-10-2009, 01:09
Actually...I'll say this. No. The Imperium would fall. And being that it couldn't have existed in the first place without them (They spear headed the Great Crusade) losing them -all- would screw the Imperium as we know it.

Hero adamite
14-10-2009, 01:13
Without Space Marines there wouldn't be an imperium for long. Space Marines are small in numbers but very strong and are the tactical of the Imperium. IG are good numberwise for large/numerous threats but Space Marines do many missions with small numbers which greatly affects the Imperium overall.

example from one of the books: 1 brother seargent took out an entire world in the Eye of Terror himself.

Vaktathi
14-10-2009, 01:16
example from one of the books: 1 brother seargent took out an entire world in the Eye of Terror himself.

Huh, what book is that?

Lord_Crull
14-10-2009, 01:18
Huh, what book is that?

Hammer of Daemons, and no it was a Grey Knights Justicar and he did it through trickery by pitting each of the Khornate lords against each other when he was enslaved to fight as a gladiator.


I'm not familiar with that at all, so I can't comment. All I can go off is what I have read so far.


We did, we won.


Darkness has fallen across a hundred worlds, and for the defenders of the Cadian Gate, the pure light of day now seems but a distant memory. Though the forces of the Despoiler have been denied the ultimate prize of the fall of Cadia, Abaddon’s hordes have gained a foothold upon the worlds of Man, and none can see them being repelled for many years to come. Abaddon and his council of three have outmanoeuvred and out fought the forces of the Imperium at almost every turn. Corpses litter the battlefields in their millions, yet millions more still stand beleaguered, against a foe that knows no mercy and whose only goal is the utter destruction of all who stand before them.

The Thirteenth Black Crusade has broken the Imperium’s hold upon the Cadian Gate- perhaps forever. The raging tempest of the Eye of Terror has surged forth, engulfing those worlds lost to Chaos. The Imperium no longer bars the gate to the Eye, only a small channel remains through which Imperial Navy vessels may pass to bring aid to the desperate forces upon Cadia.




That said, wasn't that also back when Lost and the Damned was a legal list? Such armies would comprise the vast majority of Chaos forces and essentially form a counterpart to the Imperial Guard and also undertake the vast majority of the fighting as well.

Or it is equally as likely the Lost and the Dammned served as cannon fodder to allow the Chaos Marines to manuver and deal damage. We've seen it happen many times before in fluff.

RCgothic
14-10-2009, 01:23
In the great crusade, only 40% didn't turn traitor or fail as a legion. Of that remaining 40%, 2 legions were all but exterminated, 4 took majority casualties and only the space wolves and ultramarines really escaped approximately unscathed. The ultramarines then nearly destroyed themselves post heresy trying to be everywhere at once. The current chapters are founded from what was left.

I reckon 1/5th of the numbers of marines that the Imperium had during the great crusade, and no primarchs. You also forget that the Imperium of the great crusade had very few in the Imperial army initially, as a single planet can't produce a trillion guardsmen, but it can produce a few million marines.

Since the crusade, the guard has become the mainstay. The Astartes are the luxury optional extra.

darker4308
14-10-2009, 01:26
I think there are a lot of cuthulu like enemies that the marines specifically do battle against. These are targets that the guard would have no ability to fight against. Daemons, Norn Queens, etc..... they tip the balance of conflicts even with small numbers because they are the only ones trained. One marine is worth ten men correct. A ten man squad of guard by fluff should kill a lone marine.

The fact is marines go after stuff that by fluff a guardsman army would have no ability to deal with. There is also this sort of system of hero's and villians ... and a true villian can only be killed by a hero. There are no un-heroic ends in the 40k universe.

Hero adamite
14-10-2009, 01:27
Hammer of Daemons, and no it was a Grey Knights Justicar and he did it through trickery by pitting each of the Khornate lords against each other when he was enslaved to fight as a gladiator.


I said brother seargent and didn't mention the book because i didn't want to give anything away to anyone if they wanted to read it :p

Vaktathi
14-10-2009, 01:29
Or it is equally as likely the Lost and the Dammned served as cannon fodder to allow the Chaos Marines to manuver and deal damage. We've seen it happen many times before in fluff.
Either way, it's not the CSM's doing the majority of the fighting. taking the game element out of it, perhaps having a Blood Pact equivalent force rather than simple cannon fodder might have yielded similar results without the need of the CSM's? The rise of the Blood Pact as a direct counterpart to the Imperial Guard has been the largest threat that the forces of Chaos have deployed in recent memory, as it gives Chaos a force to match the numbers and might of the Imperial Guard, without the requiring large scale mustering of the Chaos Space Marines.

Also, notice that in the larger ground conflicts that are described by BL books involved CSM's generally portray the CSM's as small cogs delivering the killing blow, operating essentially as Stormtroopers (not IG stormtroopers, but rather the classical ST concept). Dead Sky Black Sun and Storm of Iron show how this works, with the Iron Warriors fielding massed armies of normal human troops, and basically use themselves as the Stormtroopers and technical expertise.

Lord_Crull
14-10-2009, 01:32
Also, notice that in the larger ground conflicts that are described by BL books involved CSM's generally portray the CSM's as small cogs delivering the killing blow, operating essentially as Stormtroopers (not IG stormtroopers, but rather the classical ST concept). Dead Sky Black Sun and Storm of Iron show how this works, with the Iron Warriors fielding massed armies of normal human troops, and basically use themselves as the Stormtroopers and technical expertise.

No, what books did you read? From what I read the Iron Warriors did most of the actually attacking with the cultist slaves digging and launching cannon fodder attacks.

Not quite the grunt role, but not exactly the classic German stormtroopers ethier.


Either way, it's not the CSM's doing the majority of the fighting.


You have no proof of this.


taking the game element out of it, perhaps having a Blood Pact equivalent force rather than simple cannon fodder might have yielded similar results without the need of the CSM's? The rise of the Blood Pact as a direct counterpart to the Imperial Guard has been the largest threat that the forces of Chaos have deployed in recent memory, as it gives Chaos a force to match the numbers and might of the Imperial Guard, without the requiring large scale mustering of the Chaos Space Marines.


No, the Blood Pact are highly overrated in Abnett's novels, from what I have read, despite their repuatation and how much the Ghosts claim they are tough, they seem to be just more of the bog-standard chaos goons to me.

And besides, unlike the loyalists there is no artifical limit of how many Chaos marines can be made. their is nothing stopping Fabius or some twisted ex-apothecary from creating more monsterous marines.


In the great crusade, only 40% didn't turn traitor or fail as a legion. Of that remaining 40%, 2 legions were all but exterminated, 4 took majority casualties and only the space wolves and ultramarines really escaped approximately unscathed. The ultramarines then nearly destroyed themselves post heresy trying to be everywhere at once. The current chapters are founded from what was left.

I reckon 1/5th of the numbers of marines that the Imperium had during the great crusade, and no primarchs. You also forget that the Imperium of the great crusade had very few in the Imperial army initially, as a single planet can't produce a trillion guardsmen, but it can produce a few million marines.

Since the crusade, the guard has become the mainstay. The Astartes are the luxury optional extra.

No, it depends on what version of the legion sizes you believe. One source gives 10,000 men as standard. The other gives us 100,000 and more.

Vaktathi
14-10-2009, 01:43
No, what books did you read? From what I read the Iron Warriors did most of the actually attacking with the cultist slaves digging and launching cannon fodder attacks. They had cultist slaves but they also had their red liveried soldiers manning most of the trenches and fighting, especially in dead sky black sun.




You have no proof of this. No, but its probably a pretty good assumption that a couple thousand CSM's are not going to be doing the bulk of the fighting. They simply can't cover enough geographical area and are vulnerable to destruction by heavy ordnance and must be deployed selectively and carefully.




No, the Blood Pact are highly overated in Abnett's novels, from what I have read, despite their repuatation and how much the Ghosts claim they are tough, they seem to be just more of the bog-standard chaos goons to me. Ok, that can be your opinion I guess, but they are described in said books as one of the largest and most direct threats as a result of *not* being simple rabble and cultists, they are trained and disciplined soldiers, not just gabbering cultists and mutants like so many chaos hordes are. Their existence caused a fundamental shift in the power base amongst the forces of Chaos and that shift was part of the background to Traitor General.

The Blood Pact were an elite amongst the chaos forces, a force apart from the normal horde rabble. That is what made them so much more dangerous than most normal chaos forces which may have some weapons and training, but not on the same scale as the Imperial Guard.




No, it depends on what version of the legion sizes you believe. One source gives 10,000 men as standard. The other gives us 100,000 and more.
100,000 I don't think I've seen anywhere. IIRC the Ultramarines at about 55,000 were the largest (in other words, the size of 55 Chapters).

Lord_Crull
14-10-2009, 01:46
They had cultist slaves but they also had their red liveried soldiers manning most of the trenches and fighting, especially in dead sky black sun.


I know, they manned the trenches, but it was the Iron Warriors who did the main fighting. At least that is what I read.



No, but its probably a pretty good assumption that a couple thousand CSM's are not going to be doing the bulk of the fighting. They simply can't cover enough geographical area and are vulnerable to destruction by heavy ordnance and must be deployed selectively and carefully.


No.

1. GW has never given us an exact blow-by-blow details of the battles.

2. GW has not given us the exact numbers of CSM. And I severely doubt that the 13th Black Crusade consists of ''a couple thousand marines''. The warband in the Word Bearers books was that size and was only one of the many warbands.



Ok, that can be your opinion I guess, but they are described in said books as one of the largest and most direct threats as a result of *not* being simple rabble and cultists, they are trained and disciplined soldiers, not just gabbering cultists and mutants like so many chaos hordes are. Their existence caused a fundamental shift in the power base amongst the forces of Chaos and that shift was part of the background to Traitor General.

The Blood Pact were an elite amongst the chaos forces, a force apart from the normal horde rabble. That is what made them so much more dangerous than most normal chaos forces which may have some weapons and training, but not on the same scale as the Imperial Guard.


Describes yes, but only ever shown launching the bog-standard frontal assualt most of the time. I've seen them do it many times. They even attacked with pikes and billhooks at Jago. Pikes and billhooks. I saw very little weapons and training.



100,000 I don't think I've seen anywhere. IIRC the Ultramarines at about 55,000 were the largest (in other words, the size of 55 Chapters).

The Horus Heresy artbooks give that number. 100,000 for the average legion and 250,000 for the Ultramarines pre-heresy.

Lusall
14-10-2009, 01:54
In the great crusade, only 40% didn't turn traitor or fail as a legion. Of that remaining 40%, 2 legions were all but exterminated, 4 took majority casualties and only the space wolves and ultramarines really escaped approximately unscathed. The ultramarines then nearly destroyed themselves post heresy trying to be everywhere at once. The current chapters are founded from what was left.

I reckon 1/5th of the numbers of marines that the Imperium had during the great crusade, and no primarchs. You also forget that the Imperium of the great crusade had very few in the Imperial army initially, as a single planet can't produce a trillion guardsmen, but it can produce a few million marines.

Since the crusade, the guard has become the mainstay. The Astartes are the luxury optional extra.

But the Imperium wouldn't exsist in the first place without them.

And to be frank, the Imperial guard don't/can't react fast enough in most situations compared to the Marines.

The guard do what is probably a majority of the fighting...but the Imperium as "we" know it couldn't exist without Marines.

Vaktathi
14-10-2009, 02:04
I know, they manned the trenches, but it was the Iron Warriors who did the main fighting.
Not really, only the fighting that the book focused on. The main battle lines was still almost all normal human troops.



No.

1. GW has never given us an exact blow-by-blow details of the battles. Given that LatD forces and Traitor guard aren't as well supported, it doesn't surprise me that it's almost all CSM's simply given the product nature in this case and the player makeup of the battles. When its players doing the battles, at that point its entirely up to what they play (probably vastly CSM's given the poorly supported nature of the LatD list and the relative popularity of CSM's), not what would most realistically be involved or even the entire story.



2. GW has not given us the exact numbers of CSM. And I severely doubt that the 13th Black Crusade consists of ''a couple thousand marines''. The warband in the Word Bearers books was that size and was only one of the many warbands.
Again, haven't read the details, just going off what I can guess, but after 10,000 years of war and the small size of the average warband, most CSM forces (aside from those like Word Bearers and Iron Warriors) would likely be very small, and even the larger formations wouldn't operate together as a massed unit, but probably break up into smaller elements of maneuver leading individual attacks and spearheads.

Also, the Eye of Terror book describes the vast majority of traitor legion forces as composed of mutants and traitors/heretics/mercenaries IIRC in the Lost and the Damned list.



Describes yes, but only ever shown launching the bog-standard frontal assualt most of the time. I've seen them do it many times. They even attacked with pikes and billhooks at Jago. Pikes and billhooks. I saw very little weapons and training. Don't recall that off the top of my head (been almost a year since I went through the Ghosts books and I'm in class so I can't look them up) but many of the Chaos forces they encounter aren't Blood Pact, are you sure that instance is? (Again, i'm not sure as I don't have the book in front of me).




The Horus Heresy artbooks give that number. 100,000 for the average legion and 250,000 for the Ultramarines pre-heresy.Where is that? I don't remember that in the Collected Visions.

RCgothic
14-10-2009, 02:09
Don't recall that off the top of my head (been almost a year since I went through the Ghosts books and I'm in class so I can't look them up) but many of the Chaos forces they encounter aren't Blood Pact, are you sure that instance is? (Again, i'm not sure as I don't have the book in front of me).



He's not wrong. However, they are used as ccws only after they've finished shooting up the ghosts.

Lord_Crull
14-10-2009, 02:10
Not really, only the fighting that the book focused on. The main battle lines was still almost all normal human troops.



That does not change my point.



Again, haven't read the details, just going off what I can guess, but after 10,000 years of war and the small size of the average warband, most CSM forces (aside from those like Word Bearers and Iron Warriors) would likely be very small, and even the larger formations wouldn't operate together as a massed unit, but probably break up into smaller elements of maneuver leading individual attacks and spearheads.


Which is contridicted by the Word Bearers books and Storm of Iron.

Plus Chaos marines replace their losses, their is nothing saying that they cannot.



Don't recall that off the top of my head (been almost a year since I went through the Ghosts books and I'm in class so I can't look them up) but many of the Chaos forces they encounter aren't Blood Pact, are you sure that instance is? (Again, i'm not sure as I don't have the book in front of me).


Very sure, I am reading the passage right now and they are clearly Blood Pact. Same with Straight Silver, Sabbat Martyr and almost ever other depiction has that.



Where is that? I don't remember that in the Collected Visions.

First Visions, when they describe the legions.

EDIT: Sorry it's Vol: II at Pg. 10.


''There was no limit to the size of a Space Marine legion and most of them could muster at least 100,000 combatants. The Ultramarines legion was by far the largest, and it's Primarch, Roboute Guilliman, could call upon the services of over 250,000 Space Marines''


He's not wrong. However, they are used as ccws only after they've finished shooting up the ghosts.

What I am reading looks like more close combat than shooting.

The Inevitable One
14-10-2009, 02:26
To be honest, I think the Imperium needs the Adeptus Astartes to survive. Events like Armageddon, the World Engine, the Tyrannic Wars, and many others would not been a success (or at least in their view) if the Adeptus Astartes weren't involved. I will admit they are a rare sight to see due to their small numbers, but when seen they get the job done (most of the time).

The Inevitable One

Tymell
14-10-2009, 07:34
So all codexes, and novels then - by that argument, are void of being a proper source, as they're all biased? You've just eliminated almost every fluff source in existence.

No, what I said is that everything has to be taken in context. Sources are not necessarily "void", but shouldn't just be taken at face value, even a GCSE level history student can tell you that.

The example in this case sounds like something in-universe that is devoted to bigging-up the space marines, so anything it says about how important they are should be used very carefully.

We have sources from many different nations in history telling us that their people are the greatest in the world, destined for glory, etc. Does that mean they're all accurate? No. Does it mean the sources can't be used for anything? Also no.

As a side-note, you should try not to be so hostile to anyone who disagrees with you or questions something.

laudarkul
14-10-2009, 07:44
No, Abbadon won at Cadia, he beat the Cadians, I was there at the Summer campaign. I read the Newsletters and Final results. We won. Chaos won for once. We took the Imperium head on and won. I don't care what anyone says, I was there.

From what I remember, the Imperium still maintain a large foothold on planet and it's muster all forces in order to clean the planet. The space is all Imperial and the chaos forces are trapped on the planet and soon under Creed command the eradication will begin (and with no ammunition,with no reinforcements the results is already know ). Ok he win a battle but already lost the war (this is a Pyrrhic victory0, his forces are caught and will be annihilated and his objective Terra will not be reach.
EDIT: and the Imperium it's a mix of IG,=][= and Adeptus Astartes. If something is missing the Imperium will fall.

x-esiv-4c
14-10-2009, 11:24
Laudarkul: "The space is all Imperial..."

Established fluff:"The Imperium no longer bars the gate to the Eye, only a small channel remains through which Imperial Navy vessels may pass to bring aid to the desperate forces upon Cadia."


hmmm.

Tymell
14-10-2009, 12:12
Crull is correct about the Cadia issue: the forces of disorder -did- win that summer campaign. That doesn't mean the Imperium actually lost the planet entirely, as significant changes to background material (as much as I myself might enjoy them) are too risky for GW. But according to the results, the Imperium lost a lot of their hold there.

Idaan
14-10-2009, 13:00
Not only that, but Apoc rulebook shows Abaddon with Planet Killer in a sector not adjacent to the Gate. Which means that they've broken through and are now free to reach Terra.

imperial90
14-10-2009, 17:15
In the vast majority of cases, i completely agree that the IG are MORE then sufficient for the tasks at hand, however there ARE some things the IG cannot do. Constantly saying storm troopers in power armor can accomplish anything a marine can though is silly and wrong, if thats the case why dont they only call in the sisters of battle when they need to penetrate a Hive ship to deliver a toxin to kill a Norn Queen. No, instead they get the Death Watch to do it, a Marine is FAR more then just their armor and equipment.

The amount of force they can focus in one area is only really matched by an orbital strike/artillery strike, Simple infantry is not a match. Didnt they have that one HH book where they fought a planet where all its soldiers were equipped with power armor? What happned in it? They were crushed by the legions, not by numbers, but because the Marine inside is so far beyond human that its simply not a competition.

It doesnt matter if the vast majority of cases the Imperium could get along fine, all it takes is that one foe, where there is only one chance to deal with it, where you DONT have the time to let the adminsistratum get the guard into gear. The Space Marines are FAR more likely to accomplish their objective because of their super human nature, be it delivering the toxin to kill the Norn Queen thereby disrupting an entire hive fleets synapse, taking out the the daemonicly possesed cult leader before he can lead 1000's of worlds into damnation. The Guard are indeed the Backbone of Imperial Might, but even they can stop everything the Imperium faces

Asymmetric
14-10-2009, 17:46
Purely rationally, yes the the marines make only a tiny fraction of the Imperium's fighting strength with the vast majority of it being done by the Guard almost to the point of making the marines contributions seem trivial in the context of openwarfare of attrition.

Wearing my fluff glasses however, I would come to a different conclusion:

- Marines have made the difference between victory or defeat in so many instances in the Warhammer 40k history fluff. This is a trend that is set to continue. It's a cliche, but it's a fact of the 40k universe.

- The Marines can react to a crisis much, much faster than the guard take to mobilise. No beaucracy, no divided command issues, comparatively little logistics, small numbers, fast strike cruisers. Theirs alot to be said about a force that can stop a reasonably small problem before it gets out of hand and devolops into fullscale planet wide slaughter. This is a recurring theme in many of stories we get from gamesworkshop, the marine reinforcement arriving in the nick of time and cutting the enemies heart out before the **** really hits the fan.

- Some enemies can only be handled by marines. No matter how many guardsmen, armour and artillery you possess, none of this is going to any use against a full blown daemonic infestion on their turf, ala a daemon world. Only forces with fantactial superhuman levels of faith, the marines greatest asset, can survive in these conditions without being contaminated by chaos and turned against the imperium. Just pick up any black libary novel. You think 10 million guardsmen would of triumphed in the plot of the book grey knights. No, they would of failed where a handful of grey knights suceeded.

- The Marines are symbolic, they are the Emperor's finest. If they are destroyed the Imperium's populace is without any hope. Whole crusade fleets worth of guardsmen can become emboldened simply by being aware of a handful of marines fighting on their side and their heroic exploits. The morale of the Imperium's armies would be irreversibility crippled if the marines were wiped out.


In any battle that becomes even remotely close to a war of attrition the marines become hopeless outclassed compared to the Imperial Guard. They only make a difference when they follow the mantra of "go for the jugular" and swiftly rip the throat out of the enemies power, which they are quite capable of performing. If they get bogged down, due to their horrifically small numbers, their screwed.

Asymmetric
14-10-2009, 17:47
In the vast majority of cases, i completely agree that the IG are MORE then sufficient for the tasks at hand, however there ARE some things the IG cannot do. Constantly saying storm troopers in power armor can accomplish anything a marine can though is silly and wrong, if thats the case why dont they only call in the sisters of battle when they need to penetrate a Hive ship to deliver a toxin to kill a Norn Queen. No, instead they get the Death Watch to do it, a Marine is FAR more then just their armor and equipment.

The amount of force they can focus in one area is only really matched by an orbital strike/artillery strike, Simple infantry is not a match. Didnt they have that one HH book where they fought a planet where all its soldiers were equipped with power armor? What happned in it? They were crushed by the legions, not by numbers, but because the Marine inside is so far beyond human that its simply not a competition.

It doesnt matter if the vast majority of cases the Imperium could get along fine, all it takes is that one foe, where there is only one chance to deal with it, where you DONT have the time to let the adminsistratum get the guard into gear. The Space Marines are FAR more likely to accomplish their objective because of their super human nature, be it delivering the toxin to kill the Norn Queen thereby disrupting an entire hive fleets synapse, taking out the the daemonicly possesed cult leader before he can lead 1000's of worlds into damnation. The Guard are indeed the Backbone of Imperial Might, but even they can stop everything the Imperium faces

Indeed. This is pretty much what I'm getting at.

laudarkul
14-10-2009, 19:37
Laudarkul: "The space is all Imperial..."
Established fluff:"The Imperium no longer bars the gate to the Eye, only a small channel remains through which Imperial Navy vessels may pass to bring aid to the desperate forces upon Cadia."hmmm.

I'll have to find the piece of fluff (which give also the Imperial Navy commander who defeated Chaos fleets) and if this post will be closed I'll send it to you on private message:).

Marshal2Crusaders
14-10-2009, 20:13
Quarren drove the Chaos Fleets back AFTER the Crusade.

Sekhmet
14-10-2009, 20:21
- Marines have made the difference between victory or defeat in so many instances in the Warhammer 40k history fluff. This is a trend that is set to continue. It's a cliche, but it's a fact of the 40k universe.

We only see the heroic pieces of fluff in which there's a dramatic turn of events... again, how boring would it be to see the majority of battles in which an Imperial warship bombs an army from orbit?



- The Marines can react to a crisis much, much faster than the guard take to mobilise. No beaucracy, no divided command issues, comparatively little logistics, small numbers, fast strike cruisers. Theirs alot to be said about a force that can stop a reasonably small problem before it gets out of hand and devolops into fullscale planet wide slaughter. This is a recurring theme in many of stories we get from gamesworkshop, the marine reinforcement arriving in the nick of time and cutting the enemies heart out before the **** really hits the fan.

This is true, but is also true of any special forces unit like stormtroopers, assassins, and even inquisitors or rogue traders.



- Some enemies can only be handled by marines. No matter how many guardsmen, armour and artillery you possess, none of this is going to any use against a full blown daemonic infestion on their turf, ala a daemon world. Only forces with fantactial superhuman levels of faith, the marines greatest asset, can survive in these conditions without being contaminated by chaos and turned against the imperium. Just pick up any black libary novel. You think 10 million guardsmen would of triumphed in the plot of the book grey knights. No, they would of failed where a handful of grey knights suceeded.

There's a difference between GK and Astartes. GK are necessary, although a lot of what they do in terms of fanaticism isn't dependent on their being superhuman. They could easily be regular human psykers (which they are), with awesome wargear and training, just without space marine implants. They'd be fine.

imperial90
14-10-2009, 20:54
Oh you think a small group of Storm Troopers could penetrate a Hive Ship and deliver a toxin to kill the Norn Queen thereby disrupting an entire hive fleets synapse? Like the Death-Watch did? Storm troopers ARE NOT anywhere near the level of special forces that Space Marines are, and still need to get the go from the Administratum to kick it into gear. As for Inquisitors, I doubt there are very many inquisitorial retinues capable of accomplishing what a squad of marines can accomplish. For Assasins, only the High Lords of Terra have the authority to let them loose, coming back to the issue of needing to strike without having to deal with imperial beuroccracy (yes i know its spelt wrong)

To quote what I said earlier

"It doesnt matter if the vast majority of cases the Imperium could get along fine, all it takes is that one foe, where there is only one chance to deal with it, where you DONT have the time to let the adminsistratum get the guard into gear. The Space Marines are FAR more likely to accomplish their objective because of their super human nature, be it delivering the toxin to kill the Norn Queen thereby disrupting an entire hive fleets synapse, or taking out the the daemonicly possesed cult leader before he can lead 1000's of worlds into damnation. The Guard are indeed the Backbone of Imperial Might, but even they can stop everything the Imperium faces"

Vaktathi
14-10-2009, 21:04
Oh you think a small group of Storm Troopers could penetrate a Hive Ship and deliver a toxin to kill the Norn Queen thereby disrupting an entire hive fleets synapse? Like the Death-Watch did? Storm troopers ARE NOT anywhere near the level of special forces that Space Marines are, and still need to get the go from the Administratum to kick it into gear. They are able to be mobilized much faster than the normal IG. Who do you think does these things when the Astartes are nowhere to be found or refuse to do involve themselves? The Imperial Guard must, and does, accomplish what the Astartes are for in the vast majority of warzones because quite frankly the Space Marines just aren't around in the vast majority of instances.

Sure they take higher casualties, more people die, vehicles and ships are lost, but it still happens all the same.

TheBigBadWolf
14-10-2009, 21:10
I think the Imperium could easy survive.

I see the Space Marines like the TV License vans, they are so few and far between that the majority of people have never seen them and their effectivness limited, but the fear factor associated with them helps with morale, or gets you to pay your licence :D

Lexington
14-10-2009, 21:15
Oh you think a small group of Storm Troopers could penetrate a Hive Ship and deliver a toxin to kill the Norn Queen thereby disrupting an entire hive fleets synapse?
Heck, I'd give them a much higher chance of doing so. Power armor and bolters are bulky, noisy, and in no way suited for stealth missions.

Marshal2Crusaders
14-10-2009, 21:29
Heck, I'd give them a much higher chance of doing so. Power armor and bolters are bulky, noisy, and in no way suited for stealth missions.

On a sentient ship? Where anything walking around is noticed? Really?


I agree Power Armor is not for stealth, and if anyone says anything about Shrike I'm gonna internet punch you. Space Marines 'stealth' has more in common with the ambush tactics of tanks, like the mighty and wise Severus6 once pointed out.

darker4308
14-10-2009, 21:56
You also have to remember. The armor is in many cases intended for opperations in zero gravity. A storm trooper would need a large bulk space suit.

Vaktathi
14-10-2009, 22:14
You also have to remember. The armor is in many cases intended for opperations in zero gravity. A storm trooper would need a large bulk space suit.

If you've seen the metal ST's, with masks, they look like they've got that covered.

Lord_Crull
14-10-2009, 22:44
Heck, I'd give them a much higher chance of doing so. Power armor and bolters are bulky, noisy, and in no way suited for stealth missions.

Actually silenced bolters exist in fluff, and power armor has been depicted as suprisingly silent in several depictions I have read. Read Lord of the Night. I csan count at least three times in fluff that Space marines have sucessfully sneaked up on people. Regardless most Space marine stealth operations are carried out by scouts anyway.

imperial90
14-10-2009, 23:28
A stealth mission on a living breathing ship? Yah good luck with that, you have to fight your way to the Norn Queen, not to mention the Norn Queens own personal guards.

Like I said before Vak, your right, im not disagreeing with you, their are alot of missions that can be performed by the IG and their storm troopers, and while they may be able to mobilize faster then their Guard brethren, other then Inquisitorial Storm Troopers, I have never heard of a squad operating without the bulk of Imperial Guard atleast relatively nearby, and they STILL require the green light from the administratum unlike the Space Marines, and so could NOT react as quickly. Could any human of survived so long against the daemonic like Alaric in Hammer of Daemons? I doubt it.

Im not saying the marines are needed for everything, their not, in the vast majority of cases the Imperium could get along just fine without them, but it is those rare foes, those rare battles where the fate of entire sectors lies in the balance, and victory lies on a knifes edge that the Space Marines are needed to just give that push in the right direction

Sekhmet
14-10-2009, 23:51
Oh you think a small group of Storm Troopers could penetrate a Hive Ship and deliver a toxin to kill the Norn Queen thereby disrupting an entire hive fleets synapse? Like the Death-Watch did?

Yes, I completely believe that Storm Troopers could penetrate a Hive Ship and kill a Norn Queen.



Storm troopers ARE NOT anywhere near the level of special forces that Space Marines are, and still need to get the go from the Administratum to kick it into gear.

Storm Troopers are very near the level of special forces that Marines are. If you equalized their technology (e.g. gave storm troopers regular-sized power armor), in the vast majority of situations, Storm Troopers could do the job of Marines just as well.

Your administratum point is a double-edged sword. Yes, Marines can react quickly without any sort of official orders... except from their own hierarchy which may take just as long as far as we know. But even assuming their hierarchy is quicker than a storm trooper unit's, and assuming storm troopers can't be deployed extremely quickly (like the US Marines vs the US Army, in which the US Marines can be deployed by presidential order without approval of congress while the Army cannot), there are just as many examples of Space Marines deciding NOT to help and just leaving the system or finding something better to do with their time. Hell, I've seen Marines post-Heresy take up arms against loyal Imperial forces.



So I shall ask you in specific detail, what can a Marine do that a Sister or a Storm Trooper cannot do? Don't say "kill a norn queen", because a child with an RPG could do that. What specifically makes Marines more qualified for the task? Their indoctrination is not any more rigorous than Inquisitorial Storm Troopers or Sisters of Battle. They constantly train, but so do Storm Troopers. They have super human strength, but contrary to the table top, a huge majority (in the 99.99%+ range) of conflicts are fought with guns. Even in close combat, a pistol or shotgun will do wonders.

imperial90
15-10-2009, 00:17
Wow, your ignoring my other point that they did have a case where Storm trooper like troops were given power armor in the horus heresy series, but that did not mean they had any hope of stopping the legions......

A Child with an RPG could not do it, firstly it would have to some how get close enough to a Norn Queen to do so, and secondly the objective wasnt to kill the Norn Queen, rather to deliver the toxin thereby ruining the Tyranid Synapse network. You overestimate the strength and skill of Storm Troopers dude, while they are indeed the equivelent, if not far superior to any kind of special forces we have now adays, a single Marine would wipe the floor with any squad of special forces we have......

Indoctrination is equal to a Marines? Hardly, do the sisters of battle or Storm Troopers have a rule that makes them better then fearless? Sure its a game rule, but the rule is specificly based on space marine fluff, marines dont run away in fear, they perform a tactical retreat then immediately rally. Physicly, even after their armor has been penetrated, a marine can keep on fighting for FAR longer then any human, bones laced with ceramite, interlaced plates for a rib cage, blood that instantly clots, two hearts, 3 lungs etc.....

Close Combat? Pah, a shot gun and a pistol will do wonders until u run out of ammo, which you will do when faced with endless hordes of cultists, orks, or tyranids. With a Storm Trooper, their pretty much dead if any moderately skilled close combat creature makes it to them, which they will with regards to the foes I just listed through sheer weight of numbers indifferent to those dieing around them

Ill say it again, Im not saying the marines are needed for everything, their not, in the vast majority of cases the Imperium could get along just fine without them, but it is those rare foes, those rare battles where the fate of entire sectors lies in the balance, and victory lies on a knifes edge that the Space Marines are needed to just give that push in the right direction

Mánagarmr
15-10-2009, 00:20
Yes, I completely believe that Storm Troopers could penetrate a Hive Ship and kill a Norn Queen.

You believe stealth could be employed against a ship that is alive?


Storm Troopers are very near the level of special forces that Marines are. If you equalized their technology (e.g. gave storm troopers regular-sized power armor), in the vast majority of situations, Storm Troopers could do the job of Marines just as well.

Where is the source of this information?


Your administratum point is a double-edged sword. Yes, Marines can react quickly without any sort of official orders... except from their own hierarchy which may take just as long as far as we know. But even assuming their hierarchy is quicker than a storm trooper unit's, and assuming storm troopers can't be deployed extremely quickly (like the US Marines vs the US Army, in which the US Marines can be deployed by presidential order without approval of congress while the Army cannot), there are just as many examples of Space Marines deciding NOT to help and just leaving the system or finding something better to do with their time. Hell, I've seen Marines post-Heresy take up arms against loyal Imperial forces.

Would you cite these sources? I've seen marines who turn rebel and do this, and I've seen sources where over a dispute, marines almost come to blows with Commanders, etc - but I'm curious to see these sources of both ignorance of duty and murder that you claim.

I have however seen Guard and members of the Inquisition do what you claim though, especially the Inquisition - but that's to be expected somewhat, I suppose..


So I shall ask you in specific detail, what can a Marine do that a Sister or a Storm Trooper cannot do? Don't say "kill a norn queen", because a child with an RPG could do that. What specifically makes Marines more qualified for the task? Their indoctrination is not any more rigorous than Inquisitorial Storm Troopers or Sisters of Battle. They constantly train, but so do Storm Troopers. They have super human strength, but contrary to the table top, a huge majority (in the 99.99%+ range) of conflicts are fought with guns. Even in close combat, a pistol or shotgun will do wonders.

I'll ask a question of you, Sekhmet, that is somewhat more relevant as a whole for this topic, than the theory-crafting of over who trains more often..

If the Imperium is on the brink of collapse, (we don't even have enough forces to combat Tau progression) with the aid of the Astartes, how can you honestly say that the Imperium can survive without them?

The Orks have the numbers of the Guard (which seems to the be the Guard sides favorite argument for dominance) and then some, but are superior physically. You could argue humans are smarter, but that didn't stop Ghaz and uncounted other faceless Bosses from claiming Imperial worlds - how do the Guard overcome this? More corpses in the meat-grinder?

I also just wanted to mention, as it seems to be the trump card that many people are laying down - Orbital Strikes are null against properly reinforced worlds. Anti-air platforms deny air superiority - many worlds during the crusades had such forms of protection - this isn't as viable as everyone is claiming. Many worlds had to be taken on the ground. This same technology can in-part null the Storm Trooper idea as well.

What are your thoughts on this?

RCgothic
15-10-2009, 00:30
If the Imperium is on the brink of collapse, (we don't even have enough forces to combat Tau progression) with the aid of the Astartes, how can you honestly say that the Imperium can survive without them?


Because compared to the Imperium's other military arms, the marines make up such an infinitessimal fraction. Asking if the Imperium would miss the marines is like asking if the haystack would miss the needle.

Mánagarmr
15-10-2009, 00:35
Because compared to the Imperium's other military arms, the marines make up such an infinitessimal fraction. Asking if the Imperium would miss the marines is like asking if the haystack would miss the needle.

You completely ignore the majority of my points and parrot the earlier statement of numbers that I specifically spoke out against - why even bother responding if you're not willing to read my post?

I seem to be trapped in some bizarro world, where Zapp Brannigan logic of throwing billions of corpses at every problem fits. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 01:13
So I shall ask you in specific detail, what can a Marine do that a Sister or a Storm Trooper cannot do? .

Live in the special battlefield in my ''Duty Calls'' example?

Fight for days on without any kind of sleep or food constantly? Constantly moving, fighting, attacking defending without any kind of rest thanks to the various genetic enhancements?




but contrary to the table top, a huge majority (in the 99.99%+ range) of conflicts are fought with guns. Even in close combat, a pistol or shotgun will do wonders.

Real life yes. In 40k? Nope. Read any Black Library novel, close combat always occers. In fact, in 40k, close combat is often more effective than shooting.


Yes, I completely believe that Storm Troopers could penetrate a Hive Ship and kill a Norn Queen.


You believe they can infiltrate a living ship?



Storm Troopers are very near the level of special forces that Marines are.

No they are not, twice in Black Library novels (Word Bearers, Space Wolves) have stormtroopers encountered Space Marines and gotten utterly owned in return.


Don't say "kill a norn queen", because a child with an RPG could do that.

Not they could not, go back and read Tyranid fluff before you say that. That is like saying someone could one-shot a Baneblade with a RPG.

Writerski7
15-10-2009, 01:32
A stealth mission on a living breathing ship? Yah good luck with that, you have to fight your way to the Norn Queen, not to mention the Norn Queens own personal guards.

Like I said before Vak, your right, im not disagreeing with you, their are alot of missions that can be performed by the IG and their storm troopers, and while they may be able to mobilize faster then their Guard brethren, other then Inquisitorial Storm Troopers, I have never heard of a squad operating without the bulk of Imperial Guard atleast relatively nearby, and they STILL require the green light from the administratum unlike the Space Marines, and so could NOT react as quickly. Could any human of survived so long against the daemonic like Alaric in Hammer of Daemons? I doubt it.

Im not saying the marines are needed for everything, their not, in the vast majority of cases the Imperium could get along just fine without them, but it is those rare foes, those rare battles where the fate of entire sectors lies in the balance, and victory lies on a knifes edge that the Space Marines are needed to just give that push in the right direction

Tellion did it! Why can't my storm troopers? (sarcasm)

Thank you Lord Crull.

Vaktathi
15-10-2009, 02:36
I seem to be trapped in some bizarro world, where Zapp Brannigan logic of throwing billions of corpses at every problem fits. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.Thats not quite the right way to think about it.

For instance, instead of heroically landing from orbit with a couple dozen marines in lightning fast drop pods and quickly securing and clearing a comms station held by an invading Xenos force and then mightily engaging their alien overlord in direct combat and slaying it with a chainsword, the Imperial Navy may simply just bomb it from orbit and land 10,000 troops and a couple hundred tanks in the crater and turn everything within 50 miles into a cratered hellhole. Same end result in that the Xenos are routed, and the Imperial forces in both cases may face relatively few casualties. Or they may send in Stormtroopers, strafe the crap out of it with Valks, drop a couple hundred heavily armed special forces dudes, and plug anything that moves with a dozen plasma bolts.

It's not about being cannon fodder.

Again, the Imperium somehow manages in the areas the Space Marines don't operate in or won't operate in, the Imperial Guard and navy must be doing something right.

Writerski7
15-10-2009, 02:42
Not saying IG can't. It's jsut that's not how GW made the IG. Space Marines are supposed to be the special ops soldiers of the Imperium, while the IG is the sledge-hammer. IG would simply bombard the lights out of the enemy, then drop just as many tanks and soldiers on them, albeit suffering horrendous casualties . . . But sacrifice is the name of the game with IG. After all, you won, didn't you?

Mánagarmr
15-10-2009, 02:46
It seems that you're very selective in what points you'll respond to Vaktathi.

Vaktathi
15-10-2009, 03:03
It seems that you're very selective in what points you'll respond to Vaktathi.

sorry for not taking the time to address each and every single statement like I did in the first three or four pages of the thread :eyebrows: I'm operating on 13 hours of sleep in the past 3 days and just picked out the most over the top post I saw. too tired to do much else right now.

Lexington
15-10-2009, 03:58
A stealth mission on a living breathing ship? Yah good luck with that, you have to fight your way to the Norn Queen, not to mention the Norn Queens own personal guards.
Well, if we're assuming that the ship is entirely sentient and able to track every movement upon its being, there's really no point in trying to board and assault the Norn Queen - the assault force would be outmaneuvered and ambushed by Tyranid creatures at every turn, assuming the ship didn't just find some means of jettisoning them into the void. It'd be a disaster of a mission for Marines or Guard.

Firaxin
15-10-2009, 04:14
On a sentient ship? Where anything walking around is noticed? Really?


A stealth mission on a living breathing ship? Yah good luck with that


You believe stealth could be employed against a ship that is alive?


You believe they can infiltrate a living ship?


*shoots self* We get it!

I'd like to point out that the vast majority of cases where Hive Ships have been infiltrated and the Norn Queen destroyed happens right after the Hive/Splinter Fleet exits the warp, and everything inside is still in hibernation. Ventris's exploits above Tarsis Ultra remain the only recorded instance of a Hive ship being successfully boarded after it woke up (and by the time he boards it, the ship's taken extensive damage, major organ failure, and was even rammed by a strike cruiser).

Assuming they mobilized fast enough and had the right equipment, there's no reason a non-marine killteam could do the same job to a hibernating Norn Queen.

I'd also like to point out that a space marine's brain is not physically enhanced in any way. Their ATSKNF, corruption resisting tendencies, etc, can be achieved by applied the same indoctrination/brain-washing techniques to regular humans.



Space Marines, in a militaristic sense, are absolutely redundant. What they provide that the Imperium can't do without is

a) fear among the lowly peasants that if they revolt/******* up/etc, the Angels of Death will come to claim their souls

and

b) hope (by their appearance and/or legend) among the commoners and soldiers that the situation can be overcome.


tl;dr: Each Space Marine is a Joan d'Arc. Not a warrior enough alone, but an inspiration that causes the army at your back to fight 10x harder.

Marshal2Crusaders
15-10-2009, 04:50
After doing a research paper on German Stormtroopers, I wonder if the Space Marines fill a role similar to that. Sure, your tactics are great, but in the end, its still trench warfare....

MontytheMighty
15-10-2009, 05:09
I love the space marines as much as the next man, but I simply don't see how 1 million individuals, awesome though they are, are essential to the survival of an empire that spans the whole galaxy
just like the U.S. military would still be functional without the Navy Seal

imperial90
15-10-2009, 06:21
Its not a matter of if they would still be functional, Ive said it again and again, in the vast majority of situations the IG are more then enough to accomplish the majority of missions, even those missions that Astartes regularly perform. But its those moments when your faced with the risk of loosing countless worlds to the enemy, you are only given one chance to destroy the chaos lord/power generators/norn queen/whatever which if not dealt with will lead to the eventual loss of countless worlds, where victory is not certain and seems to teeter on a knifes edge, as we know DOES happen in the 40k universe, THAT is when you need space marines

AngryAngel
15-10-2009, 06:42
While I love a good debate as much as the next guy. This isn't really a debate. It's two sides that really are going to keep disagreing no matter what is said. I agree with the Marines are needed and the lack of them would be felt. However, neither side will give in on the discussion and we'll just keep rehashing the same things over and over. Lets just agree to disagree and be done with it good people.

I think both sides have made valid points, but really how can any of us know for sure what would happen ? We can't so its all just a guess at the end of day no matter what we say.

Asymmetric
15-10-2009, 09:35
Look: you can view the issue in 3 different ways.

Rational:

You can put your 21st century observer rational thinking cap on and conclude:

- Space marines, on the whole, despite being basically the equivalent to a modern day IFV packed into a large fearless human frame lack sufficient numbers to make an impact on a large scale.

However...

- We can also infer that all ground warfare on a galactic scale is essentially, from a purely practical standpoint, largely trivial in the grand scheme of things. Neither the Imperial Guard nor the Space marines ground forces keep humanity safe from the vast majority of large enemy forces. The Imperial Navy does. In an age where you can simply level worlds from orbit, system threatening wars are decided by mastery of space and not ground warfare.

Which leads to...

- The Space Marines operate and maintain on standby the largest collection of warships outside the Imperial Navy. Every Space Marine chapter seems to have a collection of strike cruisers and frequently a battlebarge. Even if only a 1,000 in number these are hugely powerful warships more than a match for the Navy equivalents. The Imperium might not feel the lose of a billion guardsmen but it does feel the lose of every capital ship keenly, these are definitely not assets the Imperium can do without.

Fluff:

If I look at the 40k universe with fluff spectacles fully on then I presume this:

- Protracted ground warfare is hugely important.
- Close Combat always occurs.
- Space marines are every bit as strong as the fluff makes them. They are more than a match for the 10 next best trained soldiers with the best equipment all on there lonesome.
- Average Joe Guardsmen rarely if ever comes out on top against the enemy "big bad". A C'tan isn't going down to a volley of lasguns and some supporting artillery.
- Many environments are so hostile:- intense radiation fallout, high gravity, extreme heats, warp possession, etc... That only the endurance of the Astartes can even operate in those conditions.

Theirs countless times in the fluff where its made abundantly clear that only because of the arrival of the space marines, and only space marines, could a victory be achieved against *insert super powerful horror here*.

We've seen what space marines do against regular guardsmen in the fluff. Does anyone remember the story about the Deathguard lord Typhus attacking an imperial held trench network by himself. He ploughed his way through an entire regiment of guard over the course of a few days and they were powerless to stop him. It was like spitfires going against F-22's with a nigh limitless supply of missiles and fuel.


Tabletop:

The tabletop is an abstraction of 40k. Does small armfire (S3) "hitting" a space marine then mean he has a 1 in 9 chance of dieing?. Does a Lascannon hitting him mean he has a 1 in 6 chance of staying alive? Is a C'tan really about as strong as couple of battletanks?

If we take these things to be true, and don't use the movie marine rules and special scenarios, then we can infer that space marines effectively are trivial in the grand scheme of things in 41st warfare.

Vaktathi
15-10-2009, 10:10
Space Marines, in a militaristic sense, are absolutely redundant. What they provide that the Imperium can't do without is

a) fear among the lowly peasants that if they revolt/******* up/etc, the Angels of Death will come to claim their souls

and

b) hope (by their appearance and/or legend) among the commoners and soldiers that the situation can be overcome.


tl;dr: Each Space Marine is a Joan d'Arc. Not a warrior enough alone, but an inspiration that causes the army at your back to fight 10x harder.This is basically what I see the Space Marines primary purpose as. Inspiration, hope, and a deterrent, not so much an actual significant military power.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 10:22
For instance, instead of heroically landing from orbit with a couple dozen marines in lightning fast drop pods and quickly securing and clearing a comms station held by an invading Xenos force and then mightily engaging their alien overlord in direct combat and slaying it with a chainsword, the Imperial Navy may simply just bomb it from orbit and land 10,000 troops and a couple hundred tanks in the crater and turn everything within 50 miles into a cratered hellhole.

You have just lost the important objective, congratulations. You have just been shot for incompetance.


Or they may send in Stormtroopers, strafe the crap out of it with Valks, drop a couple hundred heavily armed special forces dudes, and plug anything that moves with a dozen plasma bolts.


And this vital objective has no anti-air defenses to speak of? Who is defending this place anyway? The primary advantage of marines is that drop pods move too fast for anti-air fire to engage them. (Imperial Armor II, 4th Edition Codex Space marines, 5th edition Codex Space marines)

RCgothic
15-10-2009, 10:24
You have just lost the important objective, congradulations. You have just been shot for incompetance.

oh well, it's not as if there aren't 140 trillion guardsmen lined up behind him to take his job.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 10:27
oh well, it's not as if there aren't 140 trillion guardsmen lined up behind him to take his job.

Irrevelant, he failed. You do not take objectives by destroying them. If those 140 trillion Guardsmen somehow are able to be transported acorss vast distances safely and somehow have absolutely no other warzone in the galaxy to attend to.

Sekhmet
15-10-2009, 10:30
And this vital objective has no anti-air defenses to speak of? Who is defending this place anyway? The primary advantage of marines is that drop pods move too fast for anti-air fire to engage them. (Imperial Armor II, 4th Edition Codex Space marines, 5th edition Codex Space marines)

Regular humans can survive in drop pods, I believe in a Grey Knights book a small female inquisitor without power armor was on board one. I could be mistaken, but I know humans can use drop pods just as well as marines.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 10:32
Regular humans can survive in drop pods, I believe in a Grey Knights book a small female inquisitor without power armor was on board one. I could be mistaken, but I know humans can use drop pods just as well as marines.

No first of all it was Warrior Brood that the place took in, it's the Deathwatch book. And she was heavily impaired right after from exiting from it, hardly in a position to lead a charge bolters blazing from it. And the drop pod was heavily modified for her.

You are ignoring the context.

EDIT: Just checked, they dropped in a Thunderhawk I believe, I will have to read it again.

In addition the entire thing was a C.S Goto novel and had marines using multi-lasers, ninja librarians, and Terminatiors dying to Barbed Stranglers with ease. It's hardly a paragon of fluff.

The only instance in a Grey Knight novel was an Inquistor surviving a shuttle crash along with marines, and she barely survived that.




I'd like to point out that the vast majority of cases where Hive Ships have been infiltrated and the Norn Queen destroyed happens right after the Hive/Splinter Fleet exits the warp, and everything inside is still in hibernation. Ventris's exploits above Tarsis Ultra remain the only recorded instance of a Hive ship being successfully boarded after it woke up (and by the time he boards it, the ship's taken extensive damage, major organ failure, and was even rammed by a strike cruiser).


Where does it say that in the fluff? I need proof and quotes. Calgar led the force that destroyed The First Hiveship in Behemoth (5th edition Marines)

Idaan
15-10-2009, 10:51
In Daemonifuge the Sisters of Battle make planetfall in drop pods IIRC, but I don't have the book right now.

Vaktathi
15-10-2009, 11:06
You have just lost the important objective, congratulations. You have just been shot for incompetance. That depends on if it was really *that* important or not, or whether the destruction of the Xenos was the primary objective. Either way, given the limited numbers of the Astartes, they probably wrote it off as soon as the Xenos took it anyway not expecting the SM's to take it back.




And this vital objective has no anti-air defenses to speak of? Who is defending this place anyway? The primary advantage of marines is that drop pods move too fast for anti-air fire to engage them. (Imperial Armor II, 4th Edition Codex Space marines, 5th edition Codex Space marines)Who knows. Not my point. Either way, the Imperium has ways of dealing with such things without the Space Marines. Will there be higher casualties? Yes, but there's acceptable losses built in as well (and no, that doesn't mean jamming enemy guns with corpses either before someone brings that up again). Maybe half a dozen valks get shot down en route from orbit and a couple dozen storm troopers die in a high risk operation. There's tens of thousands of them for every Space Marine.

Also, it's not like the Imperium can't deal with enemy air defense assets. The Imperial Navy can deal with ground based air defense assets with its own aircraft and orbiting starships. It is the Space Marines that all too often don't have such capabilities to wrest air superiority from the enemy.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 11:25
That depends on if it was really *that* important or not, or whether the destruction of the Xenos was the primary objective. Either way, given the limited numbers of the Astartes, they probably wrote it off as soon as the Xenos took it anyway not expecting the SM's to take it back.


Astartes do not take unimportant objectives. Space Marines do not drop in and fight for the hell of it. They take vitally important objectives. Read Taros and Vraks.



Who knows. Not my point. Either way, the Imperium has ways of dealing with such things without the Space Marines. Will there be higher casualties? Yes, but there's acceptable losses built in as well (and no, that doesn't mean jamming enemy guns with corpses either before someone brings that up again). Maybe half a dozen valks get shot down en route from orbit and a couple dozen storm troopers die in a high risk operation. There's tens of thousands of them for every Space Marine.


No, context is everything, if it is as lightly defended as you claim the Astartes have much better things to do than attacking such an unimportant objective.



Also, it's not like the Imperium can't deal with enemy air defense assets. The Imperial Navy can deal with ground based air defense assets with its own aircraft and orbiting starships. It is the Space Marines that all too often don't have such capabilities to wrest air superiority from the enemy.

Except they can't, read Imperial Armor III Taros, the Navy was unable to handle the planetary defenses so they needed the astartes to take out the Missle silos.

Vaktathi
15-10-2009, 11:53
Astartes do not take unimportant objectives. Space Marines do not drop in and fight for the hell of it. They take vitally important objectives. Read Taros and Vraks. They take whatever they damn well please whether it is important to rest of the Imperium or not. All that matters is that the force commander or whoever is in charge cares about it. It may simply be a convienent schwerpunkt from which to destroy a concentration of the enemies forces and the location itself may be unimportant.




No, context is everything, if it is as lightly defended as you claim the Astartes have much better things to do than attacking such an unimportant objective. See above.




Except they can't, read Imperial Armor III Taros, the Navy was unable to handle the planetary defenses so they needed the astartes to take out the Missle silos.
A campaign in which IN air assets (in terms of air superiority craft and bombers) was what, 78 fighters and 24 bombers plus Valkyries IIRC? A ridiculously small number given the available naval assets.

Either way, given the available assets described in IA:3, I'm not seeing why the SM's were needed to destroy the ground defenses. In IA:5 they describe the use of ST's to destroy such defenses in exactly the same manner against a far more entrenched enemy, and such defenses likely could have remained suppressed by continued bombardment during landings as launches would have rendered the weapons vulnerable.

That, and they knew they were going to have Space Marine support the entire time, so they probably factored that in and didn't provide the additional assets that otherwise would have been required.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 11:58
They take whatever they damn well please whether it is important to rest of the Imperium or not. All that matters is that the force commander or whoever is in charge cares about it. It may simply be a convienent schwerpunkt from which to destroy a concentration of the enemies forces and the location itself may be unimportant.


No, they should have no reason to destroy enemy forces when orbital support is avalible. The only reasons space marines should strike is to take important objectives. Anything else is plot reasons or military stupidity.



A campaign in which IN air assets (in terms of air superiority craft and bombers) was what, 78 fighters and 24 bombers plus Valkyries IIRC? A ridiculously small number given the available naval assets.


Why not? It was a small Eastern Fringe fleet.



and such defenses likely could have remained suppressed by continued bombardment during landings as launches would have rendered the weapons vulnerable.


No, orbital bombardments are very inaccuate and impercise at those ranges. you do that and you can easily kill your own troops.



That, and they knew they were going to have Space Marine support the entire time, so they probably factored that in and didn't provide the additional assets that otherwise would have been required.

I doubt it. They had stormtroopers avalible.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 12:49
I would like to propose a counter argument to those saying stormies aren’t as great as I and my fellow IG supporters put forward.

In the HH alpha legion book a bodyguard commander ( Their order was called Lucius Blacks or something at uni will check when I get home) took on and managed to stab a space marine primach in the chest before being killed ( mostly because his weapon was stuck in said primach chest). A good old plain human, trained like all storm troopers for practically infancy managed to face and wound a primach.


And Lord Crull and the others are trying to tell me companies of these guys can’t do what a couple of squads of marines can. BS Sure the Imperium is better off with marines hell it way better of with marines.

However the question many here have forgotten is not if the Imperium is better off with marines BUT, can the Imperium survive without them? YES IT CAN. Possibly in worse state, but IT CAN.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 12:54
In the HH alpha legion book a bodyguard commander ( Their order was called Lucius Blacks or something at uni will check when I get home) took on and managed to stab a space marine primach in the chest before being killed ( mostly because his weapon was stuck in said primach chest). A good old plain human, trained like all storm troopers for practically infancy managed to face and wound a primach.


Actually no, it was Ranko, the marine pretending to be Alpharius. Read the book, Alpharius and Omegon where planetside. The one on the Army flagship was pretending to be Alpharius. Abnett loves making us guess who is pretending to be Alpharius. but Alpharius was clearly planetside at that time.

So a highly-trained stromtrooper's best efforts caused a minor wound on a regular astartes and he then got promptly killed for his efforts. I am not impressed.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 12:56
Sorry for the double post but this is a different point I would like to make.
What of Macharius!?!? He who led the biggest Imperial crusade since the GREAT crusade and not only won but was met with success unequalled since the Emperor led his Legions in person.

The Macharian crusade has always been made out of led by and driven to victory by the Imperial guard and only the Imperial Guard with marine support being in all sources I have ever read on it insignificant. But did it not yet re take 1000 world in a span of what was it less then a decade? Using nothing but the might and steel of the Imperial guard! So yes the Imperium can not only survive but might even prosper if the guard was better led and controlled then currently.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 12:58
Actually no, it was Ranko, the marine pretending to be Alpharius. Read the book, Alpharius and Omegon where planetside. The one on the Army flagship was pretending to be Alpharius. Abnett loves making us guess who is pretending to be Alpharius. but Alpharius was clearly planetside at that time.

So a highly-trained stromtrooper's best efforts caused a minor wound on a regular astartes and he then got promptly killed for his efforts. I am not impressed.

I am sorry but no, at the end of the book when Alpharius faces and then kills the IA general and bodyguard, it was hilself in person i am pretty sure of this, and upon my return home will dig out my copy and double check.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 12:59
I am sorry but no, at the end of the book when Alpharius faces and then kills the IA general and bodyguard, it was hilself in person i am pretty sure of this, and upon my return home will dig out my copy and double check.


Am I am looking at the book right now. Alpharius is clearly planetside with Omegon. Someone else arrived at the fleet when Grammaticus and co. came with the Cabal.


Sorry for the double post but this is a different point I would like to make.
What of Macharius!?!? He who led the biggest Imperial crusade since the GREAT crusade and not only won but was met with success unequalled since the Emperor led his Legions in person.

The Macharian crusade has always been made out of led by and driven to victory by the Imperial guard and only the Imperial Guard with marine support being in all sources I have ever read on it insignificant. But did it not yet re take 1000 world in a span of what was it less then a decade? Using nothing but the might and steel of the Imperial guard! So yes the Imperium can not only survive but might even prosper if the guard was better led and controlled then currently.

Macharius was the Alexander the Great of the Imperium, note that no other IG commander has come even close to matching him at all. And the only one to surpass him was Horus in the Great Crusade. Macharius is clearly not the set standard for the IG. People like Macharius are born, not made.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 13:03
Had a copy at hand ( dont ask me where) Pages 408-409, my dear friend lord crull it is Alpharius in person

"I dont belive he will" Said Alhparius"

"Alpharius drew his blotgun"

"Why? Shrieked Namatjira!"
"For the Emperor"Said Alpharius and pulled the trigger"

There is no and i mean none evidence that is was not Alpharius in person there.

These are just snipets from those pages, feel free to re read them in full.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 13:04
Had a copy at hand ( dont ask me where) Pages 408-409, my dear friend lord crull it is Alpharius in person

"I dont belive he will" Said Alhparius"

"Alpharius drew his blotgun"

"Why? Shrieked Namatjira!"
"For the Emperor"Said Alpharius and pulled the trigger"

There is no and i mean none evidence that is was not Alpharius in person there.

Then go back and read planetside. Where Alpharius and Omegon is described and the psychic Cabal even confirms it. This is occering as Alpharius arrives on the flagship. Then read earlier in the book where Alpharius greets the Imperial Army at the dinner, then read the following scene where it is revealed that ''Alpharius'' is actually Ranko. When Abnett uses ''Alpharius'' he often reveals later that ''Alpharius'' is not really Alpharius, case in point Omegon. It's even noted by Grammaticus when Alpharius tries to fool him when he is captured and interrogated.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 13:07
Am I am looking at the book right now. Alpharius is clearly planetside with Omegon. Someone else arrived at the fleet when Grammaticus and co. came with the Cabal.



There called teleporters and they had time between the cabal and the fight to teleport away.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 13:09
There called teleporters and they had time between the cabal and the fight to teleport away.

No, Alpharius on the flagship was talking to Namajirta while Alpharius on the ground was seeing the Acuity with Omegon. Read it again. Alpharius on the ship already arrvied and was in discussion with the Comamnder when Grammaticus. I doubt that Namajirta freely ignored him for a few hours when he was talking aboard his ship. Alpharius can be in two places at once with Omegon, but he cannot be in three places at once.;)

nagash66
15-10-2009, 13:10
If anything i would belive from the ending of the Aplharius Omegon conversation ( page 399)that Omegon went, as that is the impression given when Aplharius tells him to " Do it" He himself will go and do this, he does not order him to send an assault team or something like that, and with teleport tech it is a simple matter to get to the ship to lead the assault.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 13:11
If anything i would belive from the ending of the Aplharius Omegon conversation ( page 399)that Omegon went, as that is the impression given when Aplharius tells him to " Do it" He himself will go and do this, he does not order him to send an assault team or something like that, and with teleport tech it is a simple matter to get to the ship to lead the assault.

Except he already arrived at that point. Read it again.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 13:12
Page 401 when the IA learns of the assault " Teleport Signature!" They probably got teleported straight from the surface!

nagash66
15-10-2009, 13:13
Except he already arrived at that point. Read it again.

No as i said the Order to do it is on page 399, while the teleport assault takes place on page 401, so my point is still valid. The page inbetween is the IA wondering whats going on and getting nervous more then enought time for the assault to take place.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 13:13
Page 401 when the IA learns of the assault " Teleport Signature!" They probably got teleported straight from the surface!


Yes and Alpharius already came before that. Read the book again.

And even if it ewas really Alpharius, it still does not counter my point at all. Chanye was slaughtered with ease regardless of wheter it was Ranko or Alpharius.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 13:24
Yes and Alpharius already came before that. Read the book again.

And even if it ewas really Alpharius, it still does not counter my point at all. Chanye was slaughtered with ease regardless of wheter it was Ranko or Alpharius.

I have just re read pages 390 onwards and i maintain my point. I would like you to do the same and if we still dont see eye to eye well i guess we will have to agree to disagree eh?

As for the " with ease" no it was not with ease, when a primach gets a sword thrust into his chest plate to the point it is so deep and well placed the owner cannot pull it back out, that Lord Crull is not with ease.

And going back to Macharius my point was that it shows with no room for argument that the IG can when working properly do everything the Marines cand do. 1000 world surely there would be 1 i say just 1 toxic world, and 1 heavy fortified world if not more and a dozen or so xenos worlds, but look there in less then 1 decade they fell to the Imperial Guard.

I wonder who overcame all the planetery and breachhead assaults or the toxic battlefield there ? Why yes it was the Imperial Guard !

Glabro
15-10-2009, 13:29
I think it's always important to establish right at the start of the thread whether we're talking about the "fluff" or looking at things rationally. As a rule, though, everything falls apart when you look at 40k rationally: as another poster said, it's the softest of sci-fi.

However, the most absurd part of said fluff is indeed the highly underestimated numbers of the Space Marines. It's a gross enough disparity that it always breaks the "suspension of disbelief" and detracts from the coolness of the universe.

About the numbers posted earlier: the majority of Imperial worlds have populations less than 20 million, many even have less than a million. Conversely, hive worlds (of which is said that there are at least one per sector of about 20 planets, the sector capital) have populations from five to two thousand billion (10-100 billion per hive on average, 5-20 hives per planet). Even though there are planets with Earth-like populations, the impact of worlds besides hive worlds on Imperial Guard recruitment is minor.

So, if we take 5000 hive worlds with 500 billion inhabitants, we get a pool of 25000 trillion inhabitants. Add in the other planets and I think the figure is close to 30 000 trillion or 30 quadrillion.

Since the Imperium is engaged in total war on many fronts, it's very realistic to assume that worlds maintain a PDF between 1 to 10 percent of its population, let's say 2% on average (due to the inherent difficulties in drafting from a populace where the vast majority aren't registered for a census this may be much less), from which the best 10% are seconded to the Imperial Guard. That'd result in 60 trillion Guardsmen.

Even though a million marines or ten million marines seem trivial in comparison, I wish Space Marines were formed in Legions comprising ten current chapters per standard - "Space Marine Legion" sounds much cooler than a "Space Marine Chapter" (chapter essentially meaning a sub-division of something larger), but the number of Legions would be the same as Chapters currently.

Oh well. Maybe sometime in the future GW is bold enough to change things around a bit while still keeping the theme and style.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 13:36
About the numbers posted earlier: the majority of Imperial worlds have populations less than 20 million, many even have less than a million.



Sources plz, as while i will admit i have not read much on populations in the Imperium this sounds absurd.

KingDeath
15-10-2009, 13:53
Again, the low overall number of marines matters litle.
They are highly mobile ( Strikecruisers, rapid strike vessels ) and generaly not
used in situations where high numbers are required or even usefull. Sure, there might be a million guardsmen for every single marine around, but those million guardsman are comparativly static since they have no fleet assets and need to rely on the imperial navy and comparativly small transports.

Glabro
15-10-2009, 14:33
One other thing that hasn't been mentioned: if by rational analysis we deduce that space combat is the most crucial arena, that's where Space Marines excel. They are superb boarders, and in the cramped conditions inside a ship, there's no artillery, and few opportunities to bring heavy weapons or superior numbers to bear. Realistically, Space Marines would be reserved for shipborne actions except in the direst of necessities on the ground.

Glabro
15-10-2009, 14:34
Sources plz, as while i will admit i have not read much on populations in the Imperium this sounds absurd.

That's from various sources, 3rd ed rulebook (on wikipedia as well), the number of hives I don't remember where.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 14:59
I have just re read pages 390 onwards and i maintain my point. I would like you to do the same and if we still dont see eye to eye well i guess we will have to agree to disagree eh?


No, we know that their are multipme Astartes that are able to impersonate Alpharius. The only time Alpharius was confirmed as himself was when the Cabal identifed him. Read Pg 1-187-188 This is when Ranko is revealed as Omegon. Then read Pg. 170. Ranko/Omegon says the same thing as ''Alpharius on pg. 409 to Chayne when he attacks him.



As for the " with ease" no it was not with ease, when a primach gets a sword thrust into his chest plate to the point it is so deep and well placed the owner cannot pull it back out, that Lord Crull is not with ease.


Yes it is, when you fail to do anything but a minor flesh wound and then get killed seconds later without effort on the part of the astartes then it is patethic. I was reffering to the ease in which Chayne got killed.

Despite all his training he failed to even slow Alpharius down and died in seconds. You could pit 10 Chayne's against Alpharius and the result would be the exact same thing.

In fact that is what happened, a single Astartes/Primarch killed Chayne and several Lucifer Blacks with ease while only taking minor wounds. And yes, they where minor wounds because a sword to the chest is minor flesh wound to an Astartes, espcially if it failed to even run him through.

Alpharius kills them all with only his bare hands and a gladius.



And going back to Macharius my point was that it shows with no room for argument that the IG can when working properly do everything the Marines cand do. 1000 world surely there would be 1 i say just 1 toxic world, and 1 heavy fortified world if not more and a dozen or so xenos worlds, but look there in less then 1 decade they fell to the Imperial Guard.
!

Actually no, if you read about his conquests he had to use meteors on one occasion to wipe out a world. In additon to that my point was their where somw enviorments that where too toxic for the Guard, not that Guard could not operate at all in Toxic enviorments.



I wonder who overcame all the planetery and breachhead assaults or the toxic battlefield there ? Why yes it was the Imperial Guard !

Or they could have simply had the Imperial Navy force them into the surrender. You have no proof.

Firaxin
15-10-2009, 15:15
Where does it say that in the fluff? I need proof and quotes.
First instance of boarding successfully:

The fight to halt Kraken's advance has not been entirely in vain, for the Imperium has learnt many lessons about how best to fight back against its extragalactic foe. In a number of systems Space Marines have boarded Tyranid ships while the alien creatures were still dormant after exiting the Warp. These boarding parties entered the pulsing vitals of the immense alien craft, gathering information about the Tyranids and destroying thousands of creatures while they lay frozen in hibernation. The information gathered by these brave Space Marines has proved vital to the Imperium's search for a way to defeat the Tyranid menace.
The next instance after that is Ventris's actions against Leviathan over Tarsis Ultra.

The only other recorded instance that we the players know about is from King's In the Belly of the Beast short story. A space marine strike force boards a hiveship while it's still dormant, but which wakes up while they're still on board. They pretty much all die (can't remember if one of them makes it back to the strike cruiser alive or not), and then the cruiser shoots the thing to death.

Even the space marines lose when the hiveship is awake.


Calgar led the force that destroyed The First Hiveship in Behemoth (5th edition Marines)
:eyebrows:
Yeah, he lead the fleet... if Calgar had personally boarded a hive ship and successfully destroyed it that way, why does he send Ventris on a suicide mission for doing the same thing? Plus, why would Calgar even know that hive ships were so key to take out before the first one had been killed? Is he so awesome now that he's prescient, too?!

In fact, if we look closely, we'll find that it was regular humans, not Astartes, who scored the first ever Hiveship/Norn Queen kill:


At the height of the battle, Ultramar fighters from Macragge crippled one of the largest Tyranid hive ships and this seemed to fatally disrupt the cohesion of the enemy fleet.

EDIT:
Actually no, if you read about his conquests he had to use meteors on one occasion to wipe out a world.
Because the human civilization living on that 1 (/1000) world was of DAoT+ tech-level and had defense lasers that thwarted any attempts by the Imperial Navy or Marine strike forces to land.


In additon to that my point was their where somw enviorments that where too toxic for the Guard, not that Guard could not operate at all in Toxic enviorments.
<snip>
Or they could have simply had the Imperial Navy force them into the surrender.
You guys realize that any planet with an environment too hostile for guardsmen to fight on can't be colonized/occupied anyways, and so unless there's a veryvery specific objective there (like a crash-landed STC/etc) there's absolutely no point in doing anything but bombarding the hostile xenos to death from orbit?

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 15:18
:eyebrows:
Yeah, he lead the fleet... if Calgar had personally boarded a hive ship and successfully destroyed it that way, why does he send Ventris on a suicide mission for doing the same thing? :

No be led the boarding force. It's in his profile.

And no, Calgar was not at Taris Ultra, he did not command Ventris to do anything.


Plus, why would Calgar even know that hive ships were so key to take out before the first one had been killed? Is he so awesome now that he's prescient, too?!


This may shock you but Calgar is not a bad commander.





In fact, if we look closely, we'll find that it was regular humans, not Astartes, who scored the first ever Hiveship/Norn Queen kill:


At the height of the battle, Ultramar fighters from Macragge crippled one of the largest Tyranid hive ships and this seemed to fatally disrupt the cohesion of the enemy fleet.

Actually no. The Ultramarines are also from Ultramar, suprisingly enough.



You guys realize that any planet with an environment too hostile for guardsmen to fight on can't be colonized/occupied anyways, and so unless there's a veryvery specific objective there (like a crash-landed STC/etc) there's absolutely no point in doing anything but bombarding the hostile xenos to death from orbit?

No, the entire world does not have to be like that. Certain sections may contain vauled minerals or the atmospheare may make orbital bombardment impossible.

pookie
15-10-2009, 15:38
And going back to Macharius my point was that it shows with no room for argument that the IG can when working properly do everything the Marines cand do. 1000 world surely there would be 1 i say just 1 toxic world, and 1 heavy fortified world if not more and a dozen or so xenos worlds, but look there in less then 1 decade they fell to the Imperial Guard.

I wonder who overcame all the planetery and breachhead assaults or the toxic battlefield there ? Why yes it was the Imperial Guard !


im not picking on you, just found this intresting, yes the IG did claim all those worlds, and yes they could do it again, but do you know how many chapters were needed to resolve the problems after the IG Left? and the systems started to rebel?

it took ( in rotation ) around 100 diffrent Chapters to bring the systems back in order.

SM can do what the IG can do, they do it better, more efficently and with less chance of the World/System rebelling again.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 15:41
Yes it is, when you fail to do anything but a minor flesh wound and then get killed seconds later without effort on the part of the astartes then it is patethic. I was reffering to the ease in which Chayne got killed.

Despite all his training he failed to even slow Alpharius down and died in seconds. You could pit 10 Chayne's against Alpharius and the result would be the exact same thing.

In fact that is what happened, a single Astartes/Primarch killed Chayne and several Lucifer Blacks with ease while only taking minor wounds. And yes, they where minor wounds because a sword to the chest is minor flesh wound to an Astartes, espcially if it failed to even run him through.

Alpharius kills them all with only his bare hands and a gladius.



Lord Crull on the subject on if it was Alpharius or not we will have to agree to disagree, as having read the book more then once i simply cannot come to the same conclusion as you.


In addition i still maintain it was not with ease and i would like to quote Legion page 409: Chayne swung his sabre and it was barely blocked by the primarchs sword.

Alpharius had to take a step baxkwards to defend himself against chaynes extraordinary swordmanship.

In fact the whole tone of the fight was set in, shows that this was not just another puny human for Aplharius to smash but an oponent whos skills made him a danger.

Now to a being who chokes avatars to death, smashes titans to the ground and duels bloodthristers, i would think a regular human no matter how skilled he is would be no challenge. But Legion proves this is not the case.

And no matter how strong you belive it was not Alpharius i position i respect even if i do not agree on, the book lends more weight to this being Alpharius seeing as how not only it states so, but it never even implues it was not him.

Youre theory is juts that what you think, not what is writen.





Actually no, if you read about his conquests he had to use meteors on one occasion to wipe out a world. In additon to that my point was their where somw enviorments that where too toxic for the Guard, not that Guard could not operate at all in Toxic enviorments.



Or they could have simply had the Imperial Navy force them into the surrender. You have no proof.

1000 worlds taken, in no matter what manner shows that the Imperial guard can muster the manpower, fleet assets and command staff to engange in large scall war without astartes assistance with total and massive succes.

I dont care if he took them in a poker game, fact is he did what you state the IG cannot do without marine support, took on gigantic oposition in a great crusade level of hostility and size and win.

Ok i do not want to go into the battle for ultramar, however it was won primaraly thank to the Imperial Navy and not the Ultramarines, let us not forget the final suicide ram attack that won the space battle was done not from a space marine but the Imperial admiral in charge, source WD article on the battle.

I am not saying that the ultramarines do not deserve to be aplauded for their actions, just that they were not the reason the day was won, in fact it was due to the timely and fast response ( another thing you keep going on about as not likely to happen) of the Emperors Imperial navy.

Bunnahabhain
15-10-2009, 15:42
Right, lets kill some stuff with numbers....

The galaxy is 100,0000 light years across ( real, not GW fact)

GW have said that crossing the galaxy requires a superhuman effort, and cannot be accompanied in a normal lifespan- (P 5, current IG codex, and assorted other background references)
Lets be generous, and say that is 100 years, giving an Imperial speed limit of 1,000 times the speed of light. If this is too fast, then it only makes matters worse.
Also, let us assume the marines are subject to the imperial speed limit, and can't go 100000 times faster than this, as they are marines, and therefore randomly better at everything...

Now for some maths.
The galaxy, modelled as a thin disc ( it is only 1000 light years thick, so this is is a valid approximation) has an area of 3.14 x 10^10 light years. (Area = Pi x R^2, remember)

A ship at 1000 x the speed of light, in one year, can cover an area of 3.14 x10^6 light years.

Ignoring the minor gaps and overlaps due to circles not packing perfectly, and assuming all space is homogeneous, that means, with 1,000,000 marines, they need to be broken down into companies (100 marines) stationed throughout the galaxy, to be able to get to anywhere within 1 year, and they will have an average journey time of ~8 months.
Not too bad for an instant reaction force....

If you deploy all the marines as squads (10 men), (now using spherical packing) they are now only required to cover a 250 light year radius each, so a 3 month maximum trip, 2 month average.


They either can't react fast enough, or have enough men there to be useful.
Shows why the Emperor wanted the web-way so much.

As I said somewhat earlier in this thread, the Imperium does not work, and cannot work at all with the numbers GW gives for things.
If we want to keep the flavour of the universe the same, but make it work, within it's own frame of reference, then we can with relatively minor changes.

Making warp travel much faster and more reliable, or increasing the numbers of marines by 10 or 100 times are not small changes. Having them as a somewhat useful military force, but much more important psychological and propaganda force is entirely sensible though, and just a small shift of viewpoint.

If they're a propaganda force, then that role can be filled by any well trained and equipped elite- ie Storm Troopers.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 15:44
im not picking on you, just found this intresting, yes the IG did claim all those worlds, and yes they could do it again, but do you know how many chapters were needed to resolve the problems after the IG Left? and the systems started to rebel?

it took ( in rotation ) around 100 diffrent Chapters to bring the systems back in order.

SM can do what the IG can do, they do it better, more efficently and with less chance of the World/System rebelling again.

The imperial guard were tasked with taking these worlds, they did, what took 100 chapters, plain men and women did, they did it fast and efficently.

The IG is not responsible for goverment or morale or anything else on a planet ( not even its defense thats PDF). So why i see what you are saying i do not think it colours Macharius achivements in a bad light.

Just shows what bad management will do, and thats not the Imperial Guards problem.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 15:46
The imperial guard were tasked with taking these worlds, they did, what took 100 chapters, plain men and women did, they did it fast and efficently.

The IG is not responsible for goverment or morale or anything else on a planet ( not even its defense thats PDF). So why i see what you are saying i do not think it colours Macharius achivements in a bad light.


Yes they where, read Gaunt's Ghosts and the Cain books. The some Guard go on, but some remain behind and rebuild the worlds.

Firaxin
15-10-2009, 15:46
No be led the boarding force. It's in his profile.
Well next time provide a quotation, since you make everyone else do the same.

I'm going to have to chalk that up as one of the most tragic fluff fallacies to be found in Codex: Ultramarines, because it completely invalidates the end of Warriors of Ultramar and everything in Dead Sky, Black Sun, the Killing Ground, and Courage and Honour...


And no, Calgar was not at Taris Ultra, he did not command Ventris to do anything.
:eyebrows:
No, he was at Macragge, and when Ventris got back from Tarsis Ultra, he exiled him and sent him on a suicide mission for doing the same thing he himself (Marneus) had done back against Behemoth. :wtf:


Actually no. The Ultramarines are also from Ultramar, suprisingly enough.
And so are the Ultramar PDF, who also participated in the battle, surprisingly (Ultramar has a dedicated 700 regiments, did you know that?). Space Marines don't have "fighters," and Ultramarine is spelled out every other time space marines are mentioned in the passage.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 15:48
:eyebrows:
No, he was at Macragge, and when Ventris got back from Tarsis Ultra, he exiled him and sent him on a suicide mission for doing the same thing he himself (Marneus) had done back against Behemoth. :wtf:


No, Ventris broke the chain of command and left his men leaderless to go off galvinating with the Deathwatch.



:And so are the Ultramar PDF, who also participated in the battle, surprisingly (Ultramar has a dedicated 700 regiments, did you know that?). Space Marines don't have "fighters," and Ultramarine is spelled out every other time space marines are mentioned in the passage.

No, I did not take that as ''fighters'' since Ultramar does not have ''fighters'' as in planes. The Imperial Navy does. That must mean soldiers.


Lord Crull on the subject on if it was Alpharius or not we will have to agree to disagree, as having read the book more then once i simply cannot come to the same conclusion as you.


In addition i still maintain it was not with ease and i would like to quote Legion page 409: Chayne swung his sabre and it was barely blocked by the primarchs sword.

Alpharius had to take a step baxkwards to defend himself against chaynes extraordinary swordmanship.

In fact the whole tone of the fight was set in, shows that this was not just another puny human for Aplharius to smash but an oponent whos skills made him a danger.


And then he died seconds later.



And no matter how strong you belive it was not Alpharius i position i respect even if i do not agree on, the book lends more weight to this being Alpharius seeing as how not only it states so, but it never even implues it was not him.

Youre theory is juts that what you think, not what is writen.


No it is not. Pg 170, and pg. 187-188 imply that it is Ranko. Read it again. It heavily implies it.



1000 worlds taken, in no matter what manner shows that the Imperial guard can muster the manpower, fleet assets and command staff to engange in large scall war without astartes assistance with total and massive succes.

I dont care if he took them in a poker game, fact is he did what you state the IG cannot do without marine support, took on gigantic oposition in a great crusade level of hostility and size and win.


Which promptly rebeled and required Space Marines to end it. IF the Guard did the job right the first time they would not have that problem.



Ok i do not want to go into the battle for ultramar, however it was won primaraly thank to the Imperial Navy and not the Ultramarines, let us not forget the final suicide ram attack that won the space battle was done not from a space marine but the Imperial admiral in charge, source WD article on the battle.

I am not saying that the ultramarines do not deserve to be aplauded for their actions, just that they were not the reason the day was won, in fact it was due to the timely and fast response ( another thing you keep going on about as not likely to happen) of the Emperors Imperial navy.

Actually no, read it again. Calgar weakened the Tyranid fleet enough for Battlefleet Bakka to arive.

pookie
15-10-2009, 15:50
Well next time provide a quotation, since you make everyone else do the same.

I'm going to have to chalk that up as one of the most tragic fluff fallacies to be found in Codex: Ultramarines, because it completely invalidates the end of Warriors of Ultramar and everything in Dead Sky, Black Sun, the Killing Ground, and Courage and Honour...


:eyebrows:
No, he was at Macragge, and when Ventris got back from Tarsis Ultra, he exiled him and sent him on a suicide mission for doing the same thing he himself (Marneus) had done back against Behemoth. :wtf:


And so are the Ultramar PDF, who also participated in the battle, surprisingly (Ultramar has a dedicated 700 regiments, did you know that?). Space Marines don't have "fighters," and Ultramarine is spelled out every other time space marines are mentioned in the passage.


the new dex has Ventris leading the remains of the company after Ideaus Death dated after the Fight against the hive fleet that he was exhiled from the UM for. go figure .

nagash66
15-10-2009, 15:52
Yes they where, read Gaunt's Ghosts and the Cain books. The some Guard go on, but some remain behind and rebuild the worlds.

I dont know where he gets this, but when IG stay behind to revuild they become PDF, source? COdex Imperialis, most black library novels and tons of other books, Imperial Guard do not remain as long term garrisons on 95% of worlds some like fortress wolrds might have dedicated regiments,the majority do not, and my point reamain it is not the Imperial guards duty to garrison, govern or maintain Imperial control on worlds, unless special factors apply.


I would like to add that the rebelion started after the death of Macharius and the end of the grusade, so again no fault can be laid on the crusade as it had cease to be by this time.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 15:54
I dont know where he gets this, but when IG stay behind to revuild they become PDF, source? COdex Imperialis, most black library novels and tons of other books, Imperial Guard do not remain as long term garrisons on 95% of worlds some like fortress wolrds might have dedicated regiments,the majority do not, and my point reamain it is not the Imperial guards duty to garrison, govern or maintain Imperial control on worlds, unless special factors apply.


Cain states in Traitor's Hand that the 597th remained behind to help clear the rest of the orks from Kastafore and train the new PDF regiments. Killing Ground has another example of Guardsmen remaining behind.

And their are several Fortress worlds mentioned in the rulebook, Cadia being the chief.

Firaxin
15-10-2009, 15:59
Ventris broke the chain of command and left his men leaderless to go off galvinating with the Deathwatch.
Exactly as Marneus did when he left the fleet behind to lead a boarding operation against only one of "several" large ships in the enemy fleet of thousands. If the Tyranids were a normal alien race (and Calgar didn't know that they weren't) the loss of one such ship would've had virtually no effect; on the other hand leaving command of the fleet to a subordinate at the critical juncture of trying to break through to Macragge's heavy guns is a travesty in military protocol.


No, I did not take that as ''fighters'' since Ultramar does not have ''fighters'' as in planes. The Imperial Navy does. That must mean soldiers.
Nothing precludes a PDF from having space-capable bombers (in fact there are rules to represent such a unit in BFG) or even anti-grav tanks. They're not standardized, and Ultramar's is perhaps the best trained and equipped in the Imperium.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 15:59
Cain states in Traitor's Hand that the 597th remained behind to help clear the rest of the orks from Kastafore and train the new PDF regiments. Killing Ground has another example of Guardsmen remaining behind.

And their are several Fortress worlds mentioned in the rulebook, Cadia being the chief.

So you basically agree with what i just said above, cheers.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 16:49
So you basically agree with what i just said above, cheers.

How? You claimed they never stayed behind. I provided evidence to the contrary. Ah well, concession accepted. I never claimed that they must always stay their.

Your original point that is was not the Guard's fault the world's rebeled. That is false, it is the Guards's duty to do the nitty-gritty work and take out all resistiance. This is detailed in Gaunt'sa Ghosts and the Cain books. Remember, the Herey errupted right after Macharius's death, which meant right in the aftermath of the Crusade.

Plus I even gave evidence of them staying behind permentantly. The Killing Ground and Storm of Iron are two good examples.


Exactly as Marneus did when he left the fleet behind to lead a boarding operation against only one of "several" large ships in the enemy fleet of thousands. If the Tyranids were a normal alien race (and Calgar didn't know that they weren't) the loss of one such ship would've had virtually no effect; on the other hand leaving command of the fleet to a subordinate at the critical juncture of trying to break through to Macragge's heavy guns is a travesty in military protocol.


No, it never stated anywhere that Marneus left the fleet behind.

This is what actually happened.


We have to give our fighters more time! Concentrate all firepower on the main hive ship! It is almost ready to go! See how it spills it's lifeblood into space. Kill it, kill it now! Reload damn you! Full spread of torpedoes. Fire! Fire! Fire!>

<<300/14:59> There! You see it perish? Our fighters deliver the killing blow and it dies. Such is the fate of all invaders! Wait... the other ships, they drift now as though they cannot function without the guidance of the larger ships. We must strike while we have the advantage. Launch all remaining fighters and bombers, prepare to attack! We shall reap a bloody harvest this day!>

This is from the Vae Victus during the Battle of Macragge. they just got lucky with targetting the larger ships and found out the weakness.




Nothing precludes a PDF from having space-capable bombers (in fact there are rules to represent such a unit in BFG) or even anti-grav tanks. They're not standardized, and Ultramar's is perhaps the best trained and equipped in the Imperium.

I really doubt that the Ultramarine PDF have space-capable bombers or grav-tanks.

The Red Pilgrim
15-10-2009, 16:52
Regular humans can survive in drop pods, I believe in a Grey Knights book a small female inquisitor without power armor was on board one. I could be mistaken, but I know humans can use drop pods just as well as marines.

That is absolutely incorrect, regular humans cannot survive a drop-pods descent.

This thread is pointless anyways, because it's nothing more than stubborn fan-boys and theory-crafting.

Lord Crull, as you have formed the best argument - with properly cited sources, and have never "ignored" or skipped posts you didn't have a response to, I dub you this threads winner.

Your prize is +10 Interwebs, congratulations.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 17:02
How? You claimed they never stayed behind. I provided evidence to the contrary. Ah well, concession accepted. I never claimed that they must always stay their.



Plus I even gave evidence of them staying behind permentantly. The Killing Ground and Storm of Iron are two good examples.


Well youre exmaples back my point up, in the cain book they stay behind to finish the war against the orcs, so not really staying behind more lile the main army left. Fortress worlds we have both said are not the norm and have regiments there at a all time basis.

Havent read killing ground so cant comment, Storm of iron is a frotress world...

Look i am just saying it isnt the norm for them to stay behind, unless they help form the PDF but that isnt staying being garisond there, that is an extention to the war effort, under nomral procuders they dont stay behind, it really is that simple.

Again fortress worlds and the like aint the norm, when i said you agreed with my post i dint mean that you admited fault or anything else, simply that were both saying the same basic thing.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 17:06
Havent read killing ground so cant comment, Storm of iron is a frotress world...


No it was not, it was 20,000 men and two forts. That is not a Fortress world.




Look i am just saying it isnt the norm for them to stay behind, unless they help form the PDF but that isnt staying being garisond there, that is an extention to the war effort, under nomral procuders they dont stay behind, it really is that simple.


No, it is the norm to beat down all resistance and garrison it for some time. Not permenatly, but enough to keep further rebellion from happening. Which the Guard failed to do. Which is what the Marines countered.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 17:14
Again i will have to disagree, Guard go in beat the resistance make sure a proper Imperial goverment is set up then leave. This is done and then the IG move back out or become the PDF.Since the crusade ended we can assume no major active warzones were left. Hence the Guard did their duty and packed up said " good times, crusades over off home for tey medals and a good nap". With maybe a small number of the late conquered worlds still in the process since their is no detailed canon on this we can only argue on WE think and this is my view.

As for Storm of Iron, size matters not, it was a world which sole purpose to the Imperium was to guard the gene seed hiden there. Hence it was garrisoned fortified and protected, even made a secret to all but few. Which is what i would clasify a fortress world. A world whos sole puspose it is to not fall to the enemy and protect what ever it is guarding ( be it gene seed, space lanes, or a nice holiday resort for the Inqisition).

May i ask what you would use to clasify a fortess world?

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 17:18
Again i will have to disagree, Guard go in beat the resistance make sure a proper Imperial goverment is set up then leave. This is done and then the IG move back out or become the PDF.Since the crusade ended we can assume no major active warzones were left. Hence the Guard did their duty and packed up said " good times, crusades over off home for tey medals and a good nap".


No, they should have still beaten down the resistance. I would expect them to stay for a good time afterword. (Traitor's Hand, Killing Ground) and pacify it. Guard do not automaticly pack up their bags and leave. They may not stay their permenantly, but they do stay for some time.



As for Storm of Iron, size matters not, it was a world which sole purpose to the Imperium was to guard the gene seed hiden there. Hence it was garrisoned fortified and protected, even made a secret to all but few. Which is what i would clasify a fortress world. A world whos sole puspose it is to not fall to the enemy and protect what ever it is guarding ( be it gene seed, space lanes, or a nice holiday resort for the Inqisition).

May i ask what you would use to clasify a fortess world?

Something that is actually a world. You know, an actual planet.

In fact the planet, Hydra Coradus, was classfied as a dead world, not a fortress world in Codex: Eye of Terror.

Bunnahabhain
15-10-2009, 17:18
No, it is the norm to beat down all resistance and garrison it for some time. Not permenatly, but enough to keep further rebellion from happening. Which the Guard failed to do. Which is what the Marines countered.

By that standard, any rebellion at all is a failure by the Guard. Post Herasy, the Marines and other branches of the Imperium don't conquer worlds, the Guard do.
IDoesn't matter if the world has been in the Imperium for 9, 90, 900 or 9000 years, if it's rebelled, then the Guard failed to Garrison it for long enough....

You've created a circular definition there, and they don't work.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 17:20
By that standard, any rebellion at all is a failure by the Guard. Post Herasy, the Marines and other branches of the Imperium don't conquer worlds, the Guard do.
IDoesn't matter if the world has been in the Imperium for 9, 90, 900 or 9000 years, if it's rebelled, then the Guard failed to Garrison it for long enough....

You've created a circular definition there, and they don't work.

Nope, I was talking about in the immidete after effect of the Crusade. Note I repeatedly said that the Guard do not stay permenantly. They beat down resistance.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 17:23
By that standard, any rebellion at all is a failure by the Guard. Post Herasy, the Marines and other branches of the Imperium don't conquer worlds, the Guard do.
IDoesn't matter if the world has been in the Imperium for 9, 90, 900 or 9000 years, if it's rebelled, then the Guard failed to Garrison it for long enough....

You've created a circular definition there, and they don't work.

Thank you! This is what i have been saying, long term prosperity isnt the IGs department never was never will be, and in fact since you like posting BL books so often Lord Crull in most Cain and Gaunt Book they are always rushed off to another warzone, and almost never stay around afterword as they are needed ON ANOTHER WARZONE to strangely enought fight the war which is what the IG do.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 17:24
Thank you! This is what i have been saying, long term prosperity isnt the IGs department never was never will be, and in fact since you like posting BL books so often Lord Crull in most Cain and Gaunt Book they are always rushed off to another warzone, and almost never stay around afterword as they are needed ON ANOTHER WARZONE to strangely enought fight the war which is what the IG do.

Actually Cain stayed behind in Traitor General, and Gaunt stays behind in his new book.

And note, that still does not answer my point. it is still the Guard's job to beat down the resistiance and then rush off to another warzone. They failed to do that.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 17:25
No, they should have still beaten down the resistance. I would expect them to stay for a good time afterword. (Traitor's Hand, Killing Ground) and pacify it. Guard do not automaticly pack up their bags and leave. They may not stay their permenantly, but they do stay for some time.



Something that is actually a world. You know, an actual planet.

In fact the planet, Hydra Coradus, was classfied as a dead world, not a fortress world in Codex: Eye of Terror.

Not suprising as it was a heavily guarded secret hence the fact that a smaller more conviently held facility was made, and for the record in my view any world whose sole puspose it is to Guard something, and because of this is to whatever extent fortified to the nesecity of this purpose is clasified as a Fortress world. A world which primary purpose is to serve as a fortress.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 17:26
Not suprising as it was a heavily guarded secret hence the fact that a smaller more conviently held facility was made, and for the record in my view any world whose sole puspose it is to Guard something, and because of this is to whatever extent fortified to the nesecity of this purpose is clasified as a Fortress world. A world which primary purpose is to serve as a fortress.

Classify it all you want. The actual offical defninition in the Eye of Terror Codex was a dead world. Check it yourself.

The Red Pilgrim
15-10-2009, 17:27
May i ask what you would use to clasify a fortess world?

The Planet of Steel, currently held by Manneus Drath of the Iron Warriors?

The world is a giant fortress, nothing more.

A desert world with a single castle, does not a fortress world make.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 17:27
Actually Cain stayed behind in Traitor General, and Gaunt stays behind in his new book.

And note, that still does not answer my point. it is still the Guard's job to beat down the resistiance and then rush off to another warzone. They failed to do that.

But no my dear friend they dint, someone rebeled, it was some hiden cabal they failed to deafet, or orcs they dint kill. Macharius own general ( acording to codex IG which is the newest canon on this) fought over the spoils of the crusade after his death. SOthe guard dint fail as rebelion, or detering it isnt their job, but taking it down is.

imperial90
15-10-2009, 17:29
Um, so you say its the Marines job? The elite of the Imperiums job is to finish what the IG couldnt? I hardly see how that helps your arguement.

And Chayne is hardly the equivelent to a Storm Trooper, he is FAR more elite then any storm trooper, dont they say people would pay a FORTUNE to have a Lucifer Black bodyguard, from what i read about them they seem to have more in common with imperial assasins then storm troopers

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 17:29
But no my dear friend they dint, someone rebeled, it was some hiden cabal they failed to deafet, or orcs they dint kill. Macharius own general ( acording to codex IG which is the newest canon on this) fought over the spoils of the crusade after his death. SOthe guard dint fail as rebelion, or detering it isnt their job, but taking it down is.


No, that is failure. Plan and simple. The Guard go in and crush all resitance. That hidden cabal should not have existed, all orks should be kept to an accepteble population level. And the Generals should not have done that. They failed plain and simple.

Somebody cleans up, and it sure as heck is not susposed to be the Marine's job.

The Red Pilgrim
15-10-2009, 17:32
Well gosh, if we're looking for failures by the Guard - CADIA sticks out.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 17:33
Well gosh, if we're looking for failures by the Guard - CADIA sticks out.

Correct, Abbadon just took it in the 13th Black Crusade. The Cadians even angst about in in ''Cadian Blood''

Phoebus
15-10-2009, 17:38
nagash,

I'm curious. Where do you think Imperial Guard Regiments stay when they're not fighting?

It's unreasonable to assume the norm is for them to be in space, or in a war-zone. Sure, interstellar travel and war will define their existence, but what do they do between those periods? They stay on planets. It might be their home planets; it might be other planets (see, for example, the latest Ultramarines novel, where a Guard Regiment is responsible for maintaining law and order over a world that was rocked by a Dark Eldar-sponsored revolt some years back).

This is different from the situation presented in "Killing Ground", where the Guard Regiment in question was de-commissioned and granted the right to colonize a world (with its commander ruling as Imperial Governor and many of the former troops acting as his praetorians or as PDF). They would be the exception (having spent a decade or more in constant war and surviving to receive this reward), while Guardsmen who are merely garrisoning planets for the meantime are the rule.

Cheers,
P.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 17:40
Um, so you say its the Marines job? The elite of the Imperiums job is to finish what the IG couldnt? I hardly see how that helps your arguement.

Have no idea where you pulled that is stated that the marines should do this.

I can see that i am simple anyable to get what i am trying to say across so let me re state.

The imperial guard purpose is to act as the army of the Imperium they are deployed to warzones, where they must fight the enemy crush him and once the world is secured in the name of the Emperor move on to the next war.

If a rebelion should break out the Imperial Guard will be send in to crush it.

Stating that a rebelion that happened on a world taken by the IG ( which in the case of the macharian crusade isnt the case i said above that macharius generals went rogue and started fighting for the spoils) is the IG fault is simple not true. It is not their job to stop rebelions it is there job to go in and crush the rebels. Now saying that it is their fault for the Generals in charge going rogue and bringing the whole mess about, then yes but rebelion and heresy happen in all arms of the Imperial military.


As for the fortress world thing, and plz correct me if i am wrong, isnt the whole purpose of naming planets by the purpose that by doing so it is easier to run the various sectors and so on. So any world that sole purpose of being a strong hold s o called a fortress world? Now as for the naming on the map i have already stated that as a top secret military facility posting its puspose on maps wouldnt help much?

And if a fortress can be better off be keeping it small and compcat in the hope that the secret wont be leaked out, i dont see why it would chane its designation.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 17:42
( which in the case of the macharian crusade isnt the case i said above that macharius generals went rogue and started fighting for the spoils) .


So in other words the IG themselves went traitor then? It would explain why the Marines where sent in to finish the job.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 17:42
Correct, Abbadon just took it in the 13th Black Crusade. The Cadians even angst about in in ''Cadian Blood''

1) it hasnt fallen yet ;)
2) looking at the number of marines present i cant just atribute the setback to the IG OR any other single branch of the Imperiums military

Phoebus from my understanding of it the IG are ether

1) IN a war
2) Going to a war
3) on off time while getting ready for 1 and 2

Phoebus
15-10-2009, 17:43
Also, where Alpharius is concerned, it's no coincidence that ...
"Alpharius" uses the same phrase his Captain does earlier in the book, or that the author calls Omegon, sitting in as his brother, "Alpharius", with no indication that it's not actually him until actually revealing it.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 17:44
So in other words the IG themselves went traitor then? It would explain why the Marines where sent in to finish the job.

Yes as i have said and never even tried to deny, the various generals went rogue who with most of the crusading might still under their command took over what had been re taken over by macharius.

Accoring to codex IG at least, think of it as their own little macharian Heresy ;)

Phoebus
15-10-2009, 17:44
nagash,

Option #3 can last for years. Again, see the latest Ultramarines novel. :)

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 17:45
1) it hasnt fallen yet ;)



Darkness has fallen across a hundred worlds, and for the defenders of the Cadian Gate, the pure light of day now seems but a distant memory. Though the forces of the Despoiler have been denied the ultimate prize of the fall of Cadia, Abaddon’s hordes have gained a foothold upon the worlds of Man, and none can see them being repelled for many years to come. Abaddon and his council of three have outmanoeuvred and out fought the forces of the Imperium at almost every turn. Corpses litter the battlefields in their millions, yet millions more still stand beleaguered, against a foe that knows no mercy and whose only goal is the utter destruction of all who stand before them.

The Thirteenth Black Crusade has broken the Imperium’s hold upon the Cadian Gate- perhaps forever. The raging tempest of the Eye of Terror has surged forth, engulfing those worlds lost to Chaos. The Imperium no longer bars the gate to the Eye, only a small channel remains through which Imperial Navy vessels may pass to bring aid to the desperate forces upon Cadia.

Looks like it to me, if nothing else it has failed in it's purpose now that the eye is open.


Yes as i have said and never even tried to deny, the various generals went rogue who with most of the crusading might still under their command took over what had been re taken over by macharius.

Accoring to codex IG at least, think of it as their own little macharian Heresy ;)

So in other words 100 chapters where able ot beat the force that took 100 world in 10 years? Guess the guard can't do it as well as you think they can. Looks like the Imperium really can't survive without the Astartes.

But I would point out that i just says they fought over the spoils. But it never says they rebelled against the Imperium. It could have easily been a political fight.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 17:47
Well in fear of re starting the whole 13 crusade debate ( yet again) no it dint it held, i dont care if it is just 1% under Imperial crusade, IT HELD , it wasnt taken or overun or made into a deamon world. CADIA STANDS UNTAKEN .

And with the Imperial space counter attack i would say the chaos side was lucky GW never progressed the backround.


Edit: If you or anyone would like to go on this subject plz make a new thread dedicated to this, and i will debate you at youre leasure.

Edit 2: PM if you do as it is a subject i love to bicker about, on here or with my mates in my local store.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 17:49
Well in fear of openig up the whole 13 crusade debate ( yet again) no it dint it held, i dont care if it is just 1% under Imperial crusade, IT HELD , it was taken or overun or made into a deamon world. CADIA STANDS UNTAKEN .


Keep on telling yourself that, with the Eye open more troops are pouring out to ravange the sector. Chaos definietly now has the advantage.




And with the Imperial space counter attack i would say the chaos side was lucky GW never progressed the backround.

What space counter attack? *looks over newsletter* Don't see any mention. The Imperial Navy only has a small channel left.


The Thirteenth Black Crusade has broken the Imperium’s hold upon the Cadian Gate- perhaps forever. The raging tempest of the Eye of Terror has surged forth, engulfing those worlds lost to Chaos. The Imperium no longer bars the gate to the Eye, only a small channel remains through which Imperial Navy vessels may pass to bring aid to the desperate forces upon Cadia

nagash66
15-10-2009, 17:52
Crull as i stated i will not get into it here, if you like make a new thread on the subject.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 17:55
So in other words 100 chapters where able ot beat the force that took 100 world in 10 years? Guess the guard can't do it as well as you think they can. Looks like the Imperium really can't survive without the Astartes.

But I would point out that i just says they fought over the spoils. But it never says they rebelled against the Imperium. It could have easily been a political fight.

1) and its funny i am saying this, if it was just a political fight, why send in the Astartes? Sounds more like foul heretic rebelion to me!

2) yes 100 chapters 10% of the total marines in the universe took on a Ig force that had seen more 10 times fighting in their lifetime then the norm IG does ( source 3 ed codex IG solar macharius entry and the backround bubles) and won. GO MARINES :p

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 17:58
1) and its funny i am saying this, if it was just a political fight, why send in the Astartes? Sounds more like foul heretic rebelion to me!


Or maybe the IG just did a shoddy job and the marines had to clean up. You have no proof that is was not a political fight.

Ethier they turned traitor or did a shoddy job. Nethier is lookng too good for the Guard.



2) yes 100 chapters 10% of the total marines in the universe took on a Ig force that had seen more 10 times fighting in their lifetime then the norm IG does ( source 3 ed codex IG solar macharius entry and the backround bubles) and won. GO MARINES :p

Exactly, they beat the best of the best of a massive Crusade army. That is definetly a big victory.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 18:04
Or maybe the IG just did a shoddy job and the marines had to clean up.



Exactly, they beat the best of the best of a massive Crusade army. That is definetly a big victory.

If they dint rebel themselves, then no,no shody work, more fool the adminastratum for sending in the marines instead of ordering the crusading forces in to repeat the success of the first time.

Or if they did, the men would have been numerically decimated, tired and de moralised ( as that was the reason the crusade ended in the first place!), and too top it all off now they have been declared traitors and have too fight the emperors astartes because theu commanders were lured by the dark side of the spoils.

While i do realise that there were the thought veterans of the crusade this is more then balanced out by the above.

So no i still see it as 10% of the marines needed years to beat back some demorilasised grumpy old vets who just wanted to go home.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 18:05
So no i still see it as 10% of the marines needed years to beat back some demorilasised grumpy old vets who just wanted to go home.

Or they just took out an entire crusade army of bloodthristy veterans who wanted the spoils.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 18:09
Or they just took out an entire crusade army of bloodthristy veterans who wanted the spoils.

This is against the official cannon of why Macharius ended ( or was forced to end) the crusade.

Which was the men were tired, afraid, de morallised and had enought of the wars and battles! Macharius tried to spur them on, he was a famous orator and they are stated to have loved their warmaster, so i cant see how he failed to get them all up and go about them, but his underlings did thanks to some loot?!?!

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 18:10
This is against the official cannon of why Macharius ended ( or was forced to end) the crusade.

Which was the men were tired, afraid, de morallised and had enought of the wars and battles! Macharius tried to spur them on, he was a famous orator and they are stated to have loved their warmaster, so i cant see how he failed to get them all up and go about them, but his underlings did thanks to some loot?!?!


What are you talking about? His men where scared to go beyond the limits of the Astromotican. They where at the edge of the Halo zones! That is the offical canon.

From the old IG codex.

Lord Commander Solar Macharius attempted to continue his crusade into the Halo Zone, but his troops refused to go on into the unknown, possibly because they believed they would no longer be under the protection of the Emperor.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 18:16
In the backround bubles in the talks between him and his friend and second in command is what i am on about. I do not have the dex handy but have a look if you like, i will try and track what i am talking about online.

Edit:This is one
They have seen more death and ruin than another soldier sees in ten lifetimes.
General Sejanus

Codex: Imperial Guard (3rd Edition, 1st Codex) p23

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 18:23
In the backround bubles in the talks between him and his friend and second in command is what i am on about. I do not have the dex handy but have a look if you like, i will try and track what i am talking about online.

Edit:This is one
They have seen more death and ruin than another soldier sees in ten lifetimes.
General Sejanus

Codex: Imperial Guard (3rd Edition, 1st Codex) p23


So they are veterans. That's my point.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 18:27
Why do you force me to reapet myself, they are the broken tired husks of men who have lost all will to fight.

Not even their famours, master orator of a comander who they cared for deeply couldnt get them to fight on. Who i would like to add had lead them well, treeted them well and lead them to countless victorys, NAY i say if he could not motivate them no one save the Emperor himself could.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 18:30
Why do you force me to reapet myself, they are the broken tired husks of men who have lost all will to fight.


No, it says that nowhwere, all the quotes you have given me are saying they are veterans.



Not even their famours, master orator of a comander who they cared for deeply couldnt get them to fight on. Who i would like to add had lead them well, treeted them well and lead them to countless victorys, NAY i say if he could not motivate them no one save the Emperor himself could.

Because they where scared of the Halo Zone. Why are you making me repeat myself.


Lord Commander Solar Macharius attempted to continue his crusade into the Halo Zone, but his troops refused to go on into the unknown, possibly because they believed they would no longer be under the protection of the Emperor.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 18:35
Is just one of the reason i have stated, while i do not have the nessecary books with me to provide page refrences, i would think i would not be assumed to just making this stuff up.

In any case this has gone far far away from the ops question, and i must admit i am curently unable to provide full quotes for me claims so i will concide the point.... for now, but I WILL be back with full quotes pages numbers and anything else you require!

In other words i will give you this battle, but the war has just begun!

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 18:38
Is just one of the reason i have stated, while i do not have the nessecary books with me to provide page refrences, i would think i would not be assumed to just making this stuff up.

In any case this has gone far far away from the ops question, and i must admit i am curently unable to provide full quotes for me claims so i will concide the point.... for now, but I WILL be back with full quotes pages numbers and anything else you require!

In other words i will give you this battle, but the war has just begun!

This is not a battle. This is a not a war. This is an online discussion. If you feel that it has taken too far from the OP then start a new thread.

MontytheMighty
15-10-2009, 18:40
someone mentioned that one of the codices says drop pods descend too fast for anti-air ordinance to intercept

does anyone find this rather implausible in the 41st millennium
you'd think they'd have really advanced anti-air weapon systems?

x-esiv-4c
15-10-2009, 18:41
This thread has gotten so far off topic. Get back on topic or lock the thread.

nagash66
15-10-2009, 18:41
This is not a battle. This is a not a war. This is an online discussion.

Oh come on a little drama never hurt anyone ( i hope :p)

Firaxin
15-10-2009, 20:54
No, it never stated anywhere that Marneus left the fleet behind.

This is what actually happened.
:eyebrows:
Get your story straight, man!

a) That proves my point that human fighters got the kill.

b) If he didn't board the hiveship here, then I don't know why you were trying to use this instance to disprove the fact that Ventris is the only recorded event where anyone boards an awake hiveship, kills it, and escapes alive.


I really doubt that the Ultramarine PDF have space-capable bombers
Then I don't know why it's an option in BFG. It's like doubting guardsmen have access to plasma guns; it may not be common but it's more often than never.


or grav-tanks.
Obviously they don't, I was just emphasizing how little they have to adhere to IG standards.


Lord Crull, as you have formed the best argument - with properly cited sources, and have never "ignored" or skipped posts you didn't have a response to, I dub you this threads winner.
:eyebrows:
What is his argument, exactly?
Did you ever have one Crull? Or have you just been using rebuttals to start circular arguments since the get-go?

I laid my argument out in my first post on page 7, and if you had read past the first line you'd see that I support your opinion and that it's actually something everyone on both sides of this thread can approve.

But instead with your nitpicking we're still arguing about a specific within the argument about whether guardsmen could board a hiveship and kill a norn queen which is yet another specific within the argument about whether the Imperial Navy could overcome Hive Fleets on its own which is yet another specific within the context of the overall thread.
:rolleyes:


Oh come on a little drama never hurt anyone ( i hope :p)
...Watching you and Crull go around in circles for the last 5 pages on inconsequential matters is giving me a migraine. Seriously you two, stop.

Crull, if nagash66's posts are so obviously desperate and pathetic in his search for a way to prove the Guard's superiority, don't even bother responding to him. For all you know, he's a troll.

Nagash, if Crull is so thick-headed that you can't persuade him, then stop trying to convince him. Your efforts, whether you intend them to or not, are obviously having a detrimental effect on the thread and your point of view.

Lord_Crull
15-10-2009, 20:59
:eyebrows:
Get your story straight, man!

a) That proves my point that human fighters got the kill.

b) If he didn't board the hiveship here, then I don't know why you were trying to use this instance to disprove the fact that Ventris is the only recorded event where anyone boards an awake hiveship, kills it, and escapes alive.


No, you stated he broke off to engage the hive ships. Which was nowhere stated. Indeed, it seems the first hive ships where destroyed by the Vae Victus and Calgar ordered an assault on the ships.



:eyebrows:
What is his argument, exactly?
Did you ever have one Crull? Or have you just been using rebuttals to start circular arguments since the get-go?

I laid my argument out in my first post on page 7, and if you had read past the first line you'd see that I support your opinion and that it's actually something everyone on both sides of this thread can approve.


They why are you making the ridiculous claim that the Ultramarines never won the Battle of Macragge or destroyed the first hive ships? Despite ample evidence to the contrary?

Solar_Eclipse
16-10-2009, 03:20
Do you know why Marines board Hive ships to kill norn queens?

Because their fleets are garbage.

And Imperial Navy Flotilla could probably deal with a Tyranid Fleet, or at least damage it enough to allow time for reinforcements to come.

Firaxin
16-10-2009, 04:27
No, you stated
<snip>
They why are you making the ridiculous claim
I stated and claimed no such things. You need to go back and read my posts fully (past the first few lines), and pay attention to the details. Until that happens we can't have a rational conversation.

imperial90
16-10-2009, 07:09
Thats the first time Ive ever heard anyone call a Battle Barge garbage........

Lord_Crull
16-10-2009, 10:13
I stated and claimed no such things. You need to go back and read my posts fully (past the first few lines), and pay attention to the details. Until that happens we can't have a rational conversation.


No, I am talking about this. This is not my point and I do not agree with you on this.


Exactly as Marneus did when he left the fleet behind to lead a boarding operation against only one of "several" large ships in the enemy fleet of thousands. If the Tyranids were a normal alien race (and Calgar didn't know that they weren't) the loss of one such ship would've had virtually no effect; on the other hand leaving command of the fleet to a subordinate at the critical juncture of trying to break through to Macragge's heavy guns is a travesty in military protocol.


This is clearly false, you have no proof or quotes he did that. Instead I provided relevant proof and quotes that contridicted this paragraph.

Firaxin
16-10-2009, 19:41
This is clearly false, you have no proof or quotes he did that. Instead I provided relevant proof and quotes that contridicted this paragraph.
:wtf: I only said that because I was trying to explain why it makes no sense for Calgar to have done it (and since you think it sounds unbelievable I guess I got my point across). And I was only doing that because you told me he did it:

No he led the boarding force. It's in his profile.

Then later you provided a quote which says the opposite, which is why I asked you to get your story straight.

Obviously there's been some sort of mis-communication, so if you want to clarify yourself/continue this then send me a PM, because I won't respond on the subject any more in this thread.