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wilsongrahams
13-10-2009, 13:59
I was thinking today about what the Legion's were organised like before the Codex changed them.

Dark Angels had Ravenwing, Deathwing and their Inner Circle even though they all evolved after the heresy for obvious reasons...

Space Wolves had their thirteen Great Companies and still do! No need to detail it.

Imperial Fists - I've heard it mentioned that the Black Templar format was how the Fists used to fight before they became a codex chapter but the Templars did not. Don't know if it's true.

Ultramarines - same decimal system we're all stuck with today.

What I'd love to know, is if there is any information on other legions from before the heresy, in particular Blood Angels (I know no Death Company so no need to list that). I know the company and squad markings are different for BA but was there always ten squads per company and how many companies were there? Were there 6 tactical, 2 assault, 2 dev etc.

In particular, almost all BA fluff and Lunar Wolves for that matter, has all tactical marines also having chainswords as a blend of tactical and assault like the SW Grey hunters...

Any of the other legions would also help to complete the list and also help with ideas and filling in gaps if needed.

I'm only halfway through the Horus Heresy books and so far very little is mentioned of organisation except that there are many captains leading squads and not just an honour guard.

PariahX
13-10-2009, 14:51
Only the Emperors Children ever wore make-up. Fact.

Maybe the Raven Guard, though ...... emos that they are.

Vladimir Pugh
13-10-2009, 14:55
I'm also interested in seeing what markings the Dark Angels had before they met Lion El'Jonson, back when they were the First Legion. They had black armour, right? What else?

pookie
13-10-2009, 15:06
Imperial Fists - I've heard it mentioned that the Black Templar format was how the Fists used to fight before they became a codex chapter but the Templars did not. Don't know if it's true.



The IF were just like any other Legion, they had there own slight divergencys, but for all intents and purposes were just like the UM's.

the reason why Dorn didnt want to split his Legion, was down to a few reasons, most of which are understandable, after all was it not his Legion who had stood on the Walls of Terra defending Mankind?

He felt it was a insult to suggest that by not splitting his Legion into 'Chapters' he would or could cause the death of the Virgin IoM just as the Traitor Primarchs had tried.

the BT are the only known ( to me ) Chapter, who are still activly pursing the Emps idea during the GC, to reunite all of Mankind, and to fight for and defend Mankind against the Enemys within and without, Hence why they have not addopted the Codex as other chapters did after the Second Founding.

you have to remeber Vulkan and Russ also didnt want to split there Legions, Russ certainly got his own way, although im not sure how, and Vulkan relented but still didnt fully embrace the Codex either.

wilsongrahams
13-10-2009, 15:54
Apart from black armour, there isn't anything really said about dark angels but they do use a different marking for tactical and devastator squads as well as different company markings - knee not shoulder trim. This probably has some basis in the pre-codex era although how much was pre-jonson is unknown. I'm sure blood angels weren't red either until they found sanguinius and were named after 'the tribe of pure blood'. Maybe most of the legions underwent changes similar to being named and even changing colours like the lunar wolves did to sons of horus.

I doubt any legion wanted to be split up and i would agree with dorn for the same reasons, however it doesn't tell us anything about the markings and organisation they used before the codex was imposed. I would say they were more like the Templars are now though as the Templars would have had to get the idea from somewhere to begin with - their original legion maybe?

I believe Russ got his way by saying "******* *** Gulliman this is my legion, and you're no warmaster! He never was one to care about how he was percieved. Maybe Vulkan was similar and stubborn - DA and BA also kept some unique identities after all.

I guess there isn't anything in print that will really help us though apart from speculation.

The main issue I'd like to address is the markings system for the legions when they numbered well over a thousand marines - some horus heresy books imply that they were divided into chapters even then - the Emperors Children were about 2000 strong, each led by a lord commander, and each one would have become a chapter in it's own right had it been subjected to the codex (and had been loyal of course). The space wolves great companies are somewhere between company and chapter strength each, but no figure exists.

For blood angels i would expect each of the 2nd founding chapters and the original were each a Chapter of the Blood Angels all under Sanguinius, but how were they identified differently when the seperate chapter colours would not have been used then?

pookie
13-10-2009, 16:13
I doubt any legion wanted to be split up and i would agree with dorn for the same reasons, however it doesn't tell us anything about the markings and organisation they used before the codex was imposed. I would say they were more like the Templars are now though as the Templars would have had to get the idea from somewhere to begin with - their original legion maybe?


but why the BT and not the IF, the IF adopted the Codex, as did the CF, yet not the BT's?

for me the reason why the BT's didnt adhere wasnt clear until later ( after all the BT's had little to do with the actual afairs of the IoM till the reign of Vandire, and its from then onwards that we hear/see more about the,

Im sure when Sigismund left Terra pledging his Chapter would undertake a Eternal Crusade, he actually left with what everyone would recognise as a Chapter, but once out in spcae, and on the fringes of the IoM, the Chapter, slowly merged back into a Legion. ( or Company/Chapter/Great Company - ie what ever formation it was prior to being split from its Parent Legion).

Leftenant Gashrog
13-10-2009, 17:07
Its obsolete as far as canon goes, but personally I regard the pre/mid-heresy astartes Regimental system from WD126 as the definitive pre/mid-heresy structure.

Each Legion had <20 Regiments
Each Regiment had 3 Battalions
Each Battalion had 3 Companies of 3 Detachments plus another 3 Detachments

This is the reason why modern scout companies don't have a company marking - because the company colours haven't changed since the original WD129, which apparently (from its concept sketches in WD346) were intended for the above heresy era 9 company system and then changed at the last minute to be post-heresy.

Deus Ruinus
13-10-2009, 18:08
hmm i think many of the legions had different names before they all reunited with there primarchs, such as the world eaters were known as the warhounds before angron changed there name under honor. and i doubt the ultramarines had there names as the ultramarines at first, plainly there the ultramarines because they say there the defenders of ultrama. also the name of space wolfs are obvious, also the death guard were once dusk raiders and had white armour with there right arms painted red to signify there the right hand of the emperor. but i would like to now what the other legions original names where.

wilsongrahams
13-10-2009, 19:04
The only other one I know for sure is that dark angels were simply the first legion.

Sandlemad
13-10-2009, 20:50
for me the reason why the BT's didnt adhere wasnt clear until later ( after all the BT's had little to do with the actual afairs of the IoM till the reign of Vandire, and its from then onwards that we hear/see more about the,

Im sure when Sigismund left Terra pledging his Chapter would undertake a Eternal Crusade, he actually left with what everyone would recognise as a Chapter, but once out in spcae, and on the fringes of the IoM, the Chapter, slowly merged back into a Legion. ( or Company/Chapter/Great Company - ie what ever formation it was prior to being split from its Parent Legion).

Partially this but Index Astartes mentions that when Dorn split his legion, he did so three ways:

The most firey traditionalists formed the BT under Sigismund (who besides being Emperor's Champion, was also the legion's '1st captain' I think?), hence their maintenance of the traditional legion role/style.
The most flexible/youngest formed the Crimson Fists, hence their willingness to adopt the Codex.
The legion's veterans accompanied Dorn to Perturabo's 'Iron Cage' as a sort of penitent/self-destruction mission. They emerged from that 'purged' in pride and numbers, so to speak, and willing to follow the Codex's precepts.

I think I'm recalling that right...

Col. Tartleton
13-10-2009, 21:13
I don't have evidence for everything, but this is what I've parsed.

The Luna wolves had companies of 600 men and there were at least 30 of them with additional specialized companies like the Justaerin (Terminators) and the Reavers (Vanguard) which were commanded by Abaddon and wore his inversed black colors. Abaddon didn't personally command the Justaerin and had his own first company (white) and wore their heraldry to my knowledge. However he was technically the captain of the Justaerin even though they had a seperate Captain in command of them and generally acted as Horus' Praetors. I've assumed this to put them at approximately 20,000 in Horus' battle group with additonal troops being in other detachments. All in all the Sons were certainly one of the middle to large legions. So 50-100k at launch, but unlikely more.

The Blood Angels were assault oriented and probably haven't changed much organisation wise. I can infer they probably used a pretty normal formation with an emphasis on assault. I'd presume they used standard codex ten base with an high number of assualt companies that are designed to be mobile infantry. I'd put them in as a mid legion as well. 50-100k at launch.

Death Guard were different, they had 7 identical companies which I've put at 7-10 thousand men strong. The DG were large and in charge numerically, their straight forward "advance and kill" tactics had massive casualty rates I imagine. They needed large numbers of marines to saturate the enemy enough to allow for this to be successful.

Thousand Sons used Cabals, and were probably similar to Great Companies of the space wolves, with psykers as predominant forces within the force.

Iron Warriors were a huge legion I think. They were stationed on hundreds if not thousands of worlds as well as being a constant part of Imperial spearheads across the galaxy. If there was a nut to crack it was IWs set against it. I feel they had a completely different organization and would be more similar to imperial guard formations than the napoleonic british regiment inspired chapters (Grenadiers=Termies, Line=battle, Line=Battle, Lights=Scouts)

I'm sure there were artillery batteries, mechanized battalions, infantry companies, combined arms grand companies, scout platoons, engineer companies, sapper detachments, anti air batteries, armored squadrons, light brigades... the list goes on. They're Iron Warriors, they probably had cooks and bakers companies with a bolt pistol on their hip and a bunch of gear. They probably had designated Whiskey companies for on the go casualty replacements, HQ departments with offices, fancily decorated out of armor uniforms... I feel like Peturabo had a thick mustache and a pointed helmet and liked to push around minatures and scribble with grease pens on maps while merrily chortling to himself until interupted by a well dressed red uniformed messenger about Dorn's latest success upon which the messenger would be shot and taken away by other servants... If there was a failure by Dorn however he would begin laughing madly and twirling his mustache and readjusting his monacle before ordering the messenger shot...

Of course the messengers were prisoners of war.:evilgrin: He was a loon, not a sadist.

Nazguire
14-10-2009, 00:14
I'm sure there were artillery batteries, mechanized battalions, infantry companies, combined arms grand companies, scout platoons, engineer companies, sapper detachments, anti air batteries, armored squadrons, light brigades... the list goes on. They're Iron Warriors, they probably had cooks and bakers companies with a bolt pistol on their hip and a bunch of gear. They probably had designated Whiskey companies for on the go casualty replacements, HQ departments with offices, fancily decorated out of armor uniforms... I feel like Peturabo had a thick mustache and a pointed helmet and liked to push around minatures and scribble with grease pens on maps while merrily chortling to himself until interupted by a well dressed red uniformed messenger about Dorn's latest success upon which the messenger would be shot and taken away by other servants... If there was a failure by Dorn however he would begin laughing madly and twirling his mustache and readjusting his monacle before ordering the messenger shot...

Of course the messengers were prisoners of war.:evilgrin: He was a loon, not a sadist.


That is possibly the best description of Perturabo ever...and not just for the comic value.

Though I think that most of the Legions would have had far more specialised detachments like you mentioned there. We know there were Jet Bike Squadrons (Call of the Lion), armoured battalions (Ironwing- Epic) and artillery batteries (Visions of Heresy- a Whirlwind battery).

There were fancy dress uniforms, we see as much in the first Heresy book with Eidolon and his equerry, wearing robes and 'half-armour', whilst in 'After De'shea' the World Eaters wore their ceremonial blue and white robes.

Previous poster mentioned the Luna Wolves all having a chainsword/bolt-pistol/bolter. That's not unusual, as in Codex: Space Marines, that's a standard Marine equipment.

guillimansknight
14-10-2009, 00:20
Bit of blusher and some masacara.


But only Emperors Children get to wear lipgloss.



And Dark Angels call dibs on all the eyeliner

Leftenant Gashrog
14-10-2009, 00:51
armoured battalions (Ironwing- Epic)

Random nitpick: in EPIC Ironwing was a company, and despite the urban myth it was as much a footslogging infantry company as it was an armoured company.

pookie
14-10-2009, 10:26
Partially this but Index Astartes mentions that when Dorn split his legion, he did so three ways:

The most firey traditionalists formed the BT under Sigismund (who besides being Emperor's Champion, was also the legion's '1st captain' I think?), hence their maintenance of the traditional legion role/style.
The most flexible/youngest formed the Crimson Fists, hence their willingness to adopt the Codex.
The legion's veterans accompanied Dorn to Perturabo's 'Iron Cage' as a sort of penitent/self-destruction mission. They emerged from that 'purged' in pride and numbers, so to speak, and willing to follow the Codex's precepts.

I think I'm recalling that right...

Kind of ;)

The cage happened before Dorn split the Legion, but i cant comment on the rest as its failry acurate ( from what i remeber ).

tho remeber the original role (style ) for the IF was of a defensive force, and master of Seiges ( although at least one other Primarch disputed this ) so that wouldnt tally with the BT being the same as the IF were pre 2nd Founding.

wilsongrahams
14-10-2009, 11:12
Good point, they were...

I'd love to know why the IF weren't based on Dorn's homeworld though instead of his barge/fortress thingy.

pookie
14-10-2009, 11:14
Good point, they were...

I'd love to know why the IF weren't based on Dorn's homeworld though instead of his barge/fortress thingy.

The Phalanx.

true, there isnt as much Backgorund on them as there needs to be, much love has been spread around to many chapters but not the Illustrious Fists!

wilsongrahams
14-10-2009, 16:04
That's the one. I just read about it in Flight of the Eisenstein too...

There seems to be more detailed depth about the Emperors Children in Fulgrim than there are in other books about other chapters. Once this thread has run a little longer I'm going to write them all down and see what I end up with to allow some assumptions to be made for the missing ones.

Col. Tartleton
14-10-2009, 19:37
Its the size of the death star...

Living on individual planets seem silly when your space ship is so dope.

Phoebus
14-10-2009, 19:53
The Dark Angels didn't have Inner Circles, Deathwings, etc., until after the Heresy.

Following the break-up of the Legion, the Inner Circle was devised as a means of ensuring that only certain, high-ranking and experienced members of the Dark Angels and its Successor Chapters (collectively known as "the Unforgiven").

The Deathwing was the monicker adopted by the 1st Company after a group of their warriors rescued one of the Dark Angels' recruitment worlds from Genestealers (as seen in the story "Deathwing" by William King). The Deathwing was a legendary creature revered by the tribal people of that world, and the bone-white color they painted on their armor was also a tribute to it and their ancestors' customs.

The Ravenwing also became the formation we know of post-Heresy, but its name is derived from one of the Dark Angels Legion's chapters, which itself drew its name from the Order of the Ravenwing: a knightly order of Caliban.

Prior to the Heresy, the Dark Angels Legion was organized in Chapters, each led by a Chapter Master and each probably numbering roughly 1,000 warriors. Many of these Chapters seem to have been raised around raw recruits from Caliban. In many cases, their officers/leadership were not experienced Terran Astartes, but genetically modified Calibanites--many (if not most, or all) of whom, as "Descent of Angels" and "Fallen Angels" show, never even received the Geneseed of Lion El'Jonson.

Where the Imperial Fists are concerned, I believe the only real correlation between the Black Templars of today and the Fists of old is simply that the Templars refused to conform to the fighting strength (1,000 Astartes) required by Guilliman. Chapter-specific evolutions, such as the fighting pairs of experienced Astartes and neonates can be traced to the Templars' continuous crusading, I believe.

wilsongrahams
15-10-2009, 08:11
The Dark Angels didn't have Inner Circles, Deathwings, etc., until after the Heresy.

Following the break-up of the Legion, the Inner Circle was devised as a means of ensuring that only certain, high-ranking and experienced members of the Dark Angels and its Successor Chapters (collectively known as "the Unforgiven").

The Deathwing was the monicker adopted by the 1st Company after a group of their warriors rescued one of the Dark Angels' recruitment worlds from Genestealers (as seen in the story "Deathwing" by William King). The Deathwing was a legendary creature revered by the tribal people of that world, and the bone-white color they painted on their armor was also a tribute to it and their ancestors' customs.

The Ravenwing also became the formation we know of post-Heresy, but its name is derived from one of the Dark Angels Legion's chapters, which itself drew its name from the Order of the Ravenwing: a knightly order of Caliban.

Prior to the Heresy, the Dark Angels Legion was organized in Chapters, each led by a Chapter Master and each probably numbering roughly 1,000 warriors. Many of these Chapters seem to have been raised around raw recruits from Caliban. In many cases, their officers/leadership were not experienced Terran Astartes, but genetically modified Calibanites--many (if not most, or all) of whom, as "Descent of Angels" and "Fallen Angels" show, never even received the Geneseed of Lion El'Jonson.

Where the Imperial Fists are concerned, I believe the only real correlation between the Black Templars of today and the Fists of old is simply that the Templars refused to conform to the fighting strength (1,000 Astartes) required by Guilliman. Chapter-specific evolutions, such as the fighting pairs of experienced Astartes and neonates can be traced to the Templars' continuous crusading, I believe.

I disagree with you on a small point here but I agree you are right on a few others.

The Dark Angels always had the Inner Circle, it is just that the meaning of the Inner Circle changed as it because of the Fallen etc. You quote the two DA Heresy Books but they also state that the Chapter kept the walking the circles etc as you rise in the ranks as you get nearer the centre. Power and knowledge came with the higher rank.

Also, having recently re-read the Deathwing book recently and the Deathwing expansion to Space hulk, I believe that the Deathwing was already named so, it was just that they were repainted white, not renamed.
Deathwing seems to imply it was a landing craft as well as a ship capable of virus bombing the planet. I would therefore agree Deathwing was a feature of the chapter, but not necesarily the name of the company until later Cloud Runner asked it of Gabriel to be so.

As for the Ravenwing, I am unsure, as in the pre-dark angels time on caliban, the ravenwing were there cavalry, but nowhere does it state when the second company became ravenwing or if the bikes and landspeeders were always called ravenwing because they are the cavalry? The 2nd ed codex did state that the ravenwing retained their black armour when the chapter changed to green as if it existed before being split up - whether the ravenwing was a term used from finding caliban, adopted during the heresy, or just after but before the codex was implemented and the legion broken up is hard to say.

Either way I think we can assume that the rank structure within the Dark Angels always followed the circles, and the inner circle merely being the top command - but now encompassed the leaders of the other successor chapters.

I don't think we will get much further with the dark angels or imperial fists for now until more books are released. Any info on other legions?

Were the Thousand Sons named because they numbered a thousand marines? That would make them by far the smallest Legion, even at half the size of the Emperors Children...

Lord-Caerolion
15-10-2009, 08:41
The Thousand Sons were called that because when the initial mutations were discovered in Magnus' geneseed, only 1000 Marines were created from it, as an experiment if the geneseed was inherently flawed or not. As such, these were named the Thousand Sons of Magnus. I can only assume that after the creation of the original Sons and the geneseed found to be pure, then more were created to turn them into a proper Legion.

wilsongrahams
15-10-2009, 08:51
Thanks. I thought it may have been something along those lines, it was just that all other legions seemed to have thousands when they rediscovered their primarch.

pookie
15-10-2009, 09:08
Thanks. I thought it may have been something along those lines, it was just that all other legions seemed to have thousands when they rediscovered their primarch.

some did certainly, it would also depend on when there Primarch was re discovered, Fulgrim and the EC's are a good example, they numbered 200 due to a accident, and it wasnt until Fulgrim was found that the Emp was able to create more EC marines.

Leftenant Gashrog
15-10-2009, 12:15
Also, having recently re-read the Deathwing book recently and the Deathwing expansion to Space hulk, I believe that the Deathwing was already named so, it was just that they were repainted white, not renamed.


I didn't want to stick my neck out on it, but thats always been my interpretation of that as well. Its also consistent with the WD126 mid-heresy lists use of Deathwing, Ironwing and Ravenwing.

Thorin White Wolf
15-10-2009, 21:04
you have to remeber Vulkan and Russ also didnt want to split there Legions, Russ certainly got his own way, although im not sure how, and Vulkan relented but still didnt fully embrace the Codex either.

russ didn't in a way there was a second founding chapter which in the end all turned wolfen or khorn (can't remember which) although some feature in codex chaos. So the high lords thought better than to try again. Other than black Templars they are the bigest chapter who number around 2400 marines ( wolves) Templars were recorded 700 from 2 crusade fleets (in the old codex I think) from an inquisitor who when missing shortly after the message was intersepted and erased. And as we all know here are a lot more than 4 fleets at any givn time

AndrewGPaul
16-10-2009, 07:20
There were the Wolf Brothers chpter, the only Space Wolves successor. As to what happened to them, all we know is it was soething bad. Any specifics are fanon.

Marshal2Crusaders
16-10-2009, 07:39
From what I have gleaned you had big legions and small legions:

Big Legions ~100,000 or higher:
World Eaters- their favored tactic is a head on charge...
Ultramarines- had huge numbers but between calth, the scouring, and the splitting could only make around 23 chapters, indicating huge casualties
Luna Wolves- went from being massive to being the smallest post heresy
Word Bearers- had at least 32 great companies
Imperial Fists- somebody had to catch all the bullets at the Siege, it must have been the high numbers of IFs
Iron Warriors- trench fighters

Medium Legions between ~10,000-50,000:
Dark Angels- said to have doubled in size since its inception, but never noted as massive
Emperor's Children- depleted then rebuilt, on its way to massive
White Scars- defended the palace
Blood Angels- had to have substantial numbers to defend the palace, and split into several chapters
Raven Guard-must have been medium sized to have been hit so hard, still made 3 chapters
Iron Hands-at least 10 companies
Night Lords- never mentioned as being massive but did have many recruits

Small Legions under 10,000
Space Wolves- split into two chapters after the heresy indicating massive casualties or small numbers
Thousand Sons- come on really? Backed up by the sending of the Space Wolves who had to have been around equal size
Death Guard- noted as being small if not the smallest
Salamanders- noted as having been small, devastated at I5
Alpha Legion- Last Legion found, no real info

Before anyone says why did they make so few Chapters post heresy, its because the heresy absolutly murdered everyone on a scale unseen. Such high casualties are easily int he realm of possibility.

Phoebus
16-10-2009, 16:55
Ahem, the Ultramarines only left 23 known Successors. There's every possibility that there were more.

The Word Bearers had at least 34 Companies--Sor-Talgron being the commander of the 34th...

In "Call of the Lion", it is mentioned that almost 20,000 Astartes were added in just the few years since El'Jonson was found. In "Fallen Angels" (which begins after the events of "Call of the Lion"), we learn that Luther has completed 18 training iterations in the slightly less than fifty years he's been in charge of training on Caliban. During the last one, he managed to raise more than 4,000 Astartes, though this was an increase over previous norms. There's no reason to doubt, though, that he'd been able to raise over 30,000 Astartes altogether in that period. Add to that the 20,000 before that, and by the Heresy the Dark Angels had to have numbered 50,000 or more Astartes in addition to their original numbers. So that's a good guess on your numbers! :)

Where the Deathwing is concerned, I have to disagree. The Terminators in the short story are clearly referring to, and influenced by, their native, pre-Astartes indoctrination culture. I don't know how likely it would be that the natives of the Plains World would have adopted Calibanite terminology and legends, or whether the Dark Angels would have bothered pushing those concepts unto them. At any rate, "Angels of Darkness" doesn't indicate that: the natives Boreas recruits from there use non-Calibanite/Dark Angel terms to describe the Emperor, his warriors, etc.

"Deathwing", IMHO, goes hand-in-hand with "Warriors From The Sky", "Cloud Runner", "Lame Bear", etc. They are native Plains terms, not Calibanite. I really don't think it predates that world. It is a spiritual concept, and it describes both a specific mythological creature and Astartes-related things that the Plains People themselves cannot comprehend.

Where the Inner Circle is concerned, there are certainly apocryphal references to sword-techniques labeled as such in "Descent of Angels". I think it's fairly clear that Mitch Scanlon wished to imply that the Inner Circle as an institution was named for those defensive techniques. But as an actual part of the Order? I don't believe there's a reference for that. In fact, the latest Dark Angels Codex specifies that the Inner Circle came about as a result of the conclave of senior officers that assembled after El'Jonson's death to determine a course of action for their Legion.

Where the Ravenwing is concerned, my sources are from "Call of the Lion". I've never heard of the Ravenwing described as the knightly orders' cavalry prior to the arrival of the Emperor; if anything, every Codex and fluff source I saw prior to and including "Descent of Angels" defined the Calibanite knights as riders of huge steeds and wielders of archaic patterns of chainswords and bolt pistols. "Call of the Lion" merely introduces a Chapter of the Dark Angels Legion that is specifically named for and descended from the knightly order of the same name (Ravenwing), and I doubt it's any coincidence that the Chapter of the Dark Angels eventually came to name its Second Company thus. :)

Cheers,
P.

Leftenant Gashrog
16-10-2009, 18:35
Big Legions ~100,000 or higher:
Medium Legions between ~10,000-50,000:
Small Legions under 10,000

I'd be disinclined to list 100k along with the other numbers, the only source for any legions having 100k is the Horus Heresy artbooks, and they state that the majority of legions are that size.

Idaan
16-10-2009, 18:55
Yes, it says that the Ultramarines were 250 000 strong. But after the heresy they created 23 successors, which would mean that they have lost 90% of their members along with equipment etc, which is simply ridiculous. Any armed force would cease to exist after that kind of casualties. Also the disproportions between ~1000 strong Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children and the Ultramarines would make them incomparable as fighting forces. It makes much more sense for the 250.000 figure to be a typo, to be read as 25.000. IMHO at least.

Marshal2Crusaders
16-10-2009, 19:03
Yes, it says that the Ultramarines were 250 000 strong. But after the heresy they created 23 successors, which would mean that they have lost 90% of their members along with equipment etc, which is simply ridiculous. Any armed force would cease to exist after that kind of casualties. Also the disproportions between ~1000 strong Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children and the Ultramarines would make them incomparable as fighting forces. It makes much more sense for the 250.000 figure to be a typo, to be read as 25.000. IMHO at least.

Again, the Horus Heresy was a conflict incomprehensible to the human mind. Tank Battles with more tanks than people, an army of chaos besieging the Himalayas. Artillery firing nonstop for months. In a conflict like that it is very possible that much wargear was lost, or simply has broken down over time. Personally I think the Mechanicus would have confiscated some of the equipment after the Heresy to stockpile for newer chapters as they come along.


Edit:
Essentially the Horus Heresy rendered Space Marines into nothing more than glorified Guardsmen, with both sides being equally equipped.

Leftenant Gashrog
16-10-2009, 19:42
But after the heresy they created 23 successors, which would mean that they have lost 90% of their members along with equipment etc, which is simply ridiculous.

Its certainly ridiculous under the WhamBamThankyouMam quicky Heresy favoured by some of the Index Astartes authors, it is however completely in line with the Horus Heresy in its original (EPIC) incarnation:


"Hatred drove us. Hatred and fear. Aye fear. For we were the finest warriors in the universe, elite among elites, the chosen of humanity. Once we had acknowledged no foe as our equal. Now we must for were not these men the same as ourselves? We fought like tigers but were met with equal ferocity. We shot accurately. Our eyes were like those of hawks. Yet equal numbers fell from our ranks. We met at close quarters. Weapons flashed and gouged but who was to say which was faster? For every Traitor who fell, so fell a loyal brother. The battle surged back and forth till in the end true faith prevailed and we had mastery. Yet we were slaughtered. But one in ten survived. ~ Lexicanian Elisar Trask, Ultramarines.

Marshal2Crusaders
16-10-2009, 20:00
Its certainly ridiculous under the WhamBamThankyouMam quicky Heresy favoured by some of the Index Astartes authors, it is however completely in line with the Horus Heresy in its original (EPIC) incarnation:

Boom! One in ten. 250,000*.9=225,000. 250,000-225,000=25,000. ~23 Sucessor Chapters? Makes sense to me....

Leftenant Gashrog
16-10-2009, 20:09
In that specific instance the 1 in 10 referred to the battle for Rogsberg, the capital city of Tallarn, however there is another referance I believe for the Ultramarine contingent on Tallarn as a whole suffering 90% casualties, and Tallarn was far from the only major campaign of the Heresy & Scouring back then.

Marshal2Crusaders
16-10-2009, 20:14
Damnit, ok well if all of the battles were similar in intensity to Tallarn then...

wilsongrahams
16-10-2009, 20:15
"Deathwing", IMHO, goes hand-in-hand with "Warriors From The Sky", "Cloud Runner", "Lame Bear", etc. They are native Plains terms, not Calibanite. I really don't think it predates that world.

Where the Ravenwing is concerned, my sources are from "Call of the Lion". I've never heard of the Ravenwing described as the knightly orders' cavalry prior to the arrival of the Emperor;
P.

Deathwing is stated as being the Emperor's steed and so the term is older than the Dark Angels post heresy (after Caliban). It is used as if the drop ship is named Deathwing even before they assume their old identities and at the end of the novel the Captain understands what Deathwing is.

The Ravenwing is named in one of the two Dark Angels HH Books as being the cavalry of caliban from before the space marines arrived, and they ride black horses. I believe it is in the first book of the two as one of the two stars of the book mentions wanting to be one of them when hunting beasts. I haven't the books to hand so can't recall exactly where or who. Maybe someone else can?

Phoebus
17-10-2009, 13:57
Yes, it says that the Ultramarines were 250 000 strong. But after the heresy they created 23 successors, ...
Known Successors. Emphasis on "known".

We're talking about the same Imperium that has virtually no knowledge regarding the Chapters of an entire founding (the Cursed, Thirteenth Founding), one that happened much more recently and under considerably less chaotic conditions than the Second Founding.


Deathwing is stated as being the Emperor's steed and so the term is older than the Dark Angels post heresy (after Caliban).
While I disagree with the logic leading to this conclusion, I went through "Descent of Angels" again, and I found that you are correct that the term "deathwing" does predate the world they recruit from in the short story of the same name.

There is a mention in "Descent", by Mitch Scanlon, of monsters in Caliban called "deathwings". They receive no other mention or description, but I doubt this could be a coincidence.


The Ravenwing is named in one of the two Dark Angels HH Books as being the cavalry of caliban from before the space marines arrived, and they ride black horses.
You are absolutely correct--I had completely forgotten about that.

I stand by my words about the Inner Circle, though! :)

Cheers,
P.

wilsongrahams
18-10-2009, 18:29
I believe you may be right about the inner circle being created as a specific chapter rank being post heresy even if the circles were already in existence on caliban. There is no mention that the dark angels adopted this system from caliban before the heresy so what is stated in the codex must be correct and not directly contradicted.

pookie
19-10-2009, 16:40
russ didn't in a way there was a second founding chapter which in the end all turned wolfen or khorn (can't remember which) although some feature in codex chaos. So the high lords thought better than to try again. Other than black Templars they are the bigest chapter who number around 2400 marines ( wolves) Templars were recorded 700 from 2 crusade fleets (in the old codex I think) from an inquisitor who when missing shortly after the message was intersepted and erased. And as we all know here are a lot more than 4 fleets at any givn time

there is one known SW successors, the Wolf Brothers, who were disbanded due to Genetic Stability, theres nothing to say this wasnt like what Dorn did, and specifically selected certain SW's who were maybe unsuitable even for the SW chpater to hold onto, so there last act was to go down in a blaze of Glory ( ala Dorn at the Iron Cage).

as for the BT - reported numbers at the 3rd War for Armageddon was around 1200+ this was three entire crusades joined together, imho this will have been around 2/3's of the Complete chapter.

Onisuzume
20-10-2009, 12:38
I'm also interested in seeing what markings the Dark Angels had before they met Lion El'Jonson, back when they were the First Legion. They had black armour, right? What else?
Red chapter badge.
And they didn't change the colour of their armour until after the HH.
Ofcourse, they still have their divergeant squad markings.

Deathwing... I think they could've existed, if not under that name.
The Ravenwing, however, I think would've existed before the heresy.

the bone-white color they painted on their armor was also a tribute to it and their ancestors' customs.
Ash-coloured and it signified them to be dead-men-walking.

In many cases, their officers/leadership were not experienced Terran Astartes, but genetically modified Calibanites--many (if not most, or all)
Those young enough would've been implanted while the rest, like Luther, would've been modified.

The Dark Angels always had the Inner Circle, it is just that the meaning of the Inner Circle changed as it because of the Fallen etc.
They're derived from a knightly order.
As such they would most likely have had an Inner Circle.
All the knightly orders in WHF's Empire army have an Inner Circle (although those mostly consist of veterans).

Maybe Vulkan was similar and stubborn
He was, but his legion didn't have many marines anymore at that time.

I believe Russ got his way by saying "******* *** Gulliman this is my legion, and you're no warmaster! He never was one to care about how he was percieved.
He was allowed to remain independant under the assumption that his legion's numbers would dwindle over the following centuries. (they can recruit from only 1 planet after all, which means a limited number of recruits.)

russ didn't in a way there was a second founding chapter which in the end all turned wolfen
Wulfen iirc because those marines lacked the canine helix due to being recruited from a different planet or something.

as for the BT - reported numbers at the 3rd War for Armageddon was around 1200+ this was three entire crusades joined together, imho this will have been around 2/3's of the Complete chapter
Which is tolerated because the BTs lack a central command for their crusades. One crusade barely knows what the other crusades are doing. And the size of a crusade fleet can vary greatly since they're responsable for their own recruits and equipment, and thus limited in size by what they can obtain.

pookie
20-10-2009, 12:54
Which is tolerated because the BTs lack a central command for their crusades. One crusade barely knows what the other crusades are doing. And the size of a crusade fleet can vary greatly since they're responsable for their own recruits and equipment, and thus limited in size by what they can obtain.

imo its tolerated because the Adepts on Terra really cant do anything about the Size of the BT, but to say they have no central command is wrong.

Helbrecht being the current High Marshall will be the only person who truley knows how many Marines he has under his command, and exactly where and what they are doing.

A Individual Crusade is not responsible for recruiting Neophytes (only training them), they are drawn from the Chapter Keeps that the BT establish on suitable worlds they have Conquered, they do have a central pool of Initiates and Neophytes, its just that each crusade would form Bonds of brotherhood and tend to stay in the same Crusade.