PDA

View Full Version : Logistics and Chaos Space Marines



PapaDoc
13-10-2009, 23:08
I was kind of wondering who does the logistical duties in traitor legions and chaos warbands. With logistics I mean the storage and distribution of food, ammunition, various equipment to combatants. Do the chaos marines do this themselves? Also what about health and medical services. Some legions are not very numerous (black legion come to mind) and how do they deal with combat injuries?

In second edition most traitor legions had Apothecarys so that kind of explains the last part (although the apothecaries seem to have disappeared now). I have not seen any kind of fluff that deals with maintenance in the chaos forces. Does anybody have any ideas?

Fugazi
13-10-2009, 23:13
Logistics...hm
Order? In Chaos?

Delicious.

Fugazi
13-10-2009, 23:23
Oh, to give a real answer...and look, I'm not saying this is the correct answer, it's just how I personally view chaos. The chaos 'magic' sustains them. I don't view them as needing traditional supply chains. They may 'eat' food, but that's just going through the motions. They don't literally need it as sustenance.

But, hey, that's just my wacky view.

Nazguire
13-10-2009, 23:29
I'd say they do it similar to how the loyalists do it, just with Chaos added on. There are still apothecaries in the Traitor Legions/Renegade Companies, just as there would still be techmarines and Librarians (though they are obviously 'sorcerors' now)

If you want a good example of logistics in a Chaos Legion, read Storm of Iron. Without trying to give too much away, one of the captains is an absolute consumate professional at it, (though it is mainly siegecraft, but you get the point) and you realise that though they have horns, tentacles and bad tempers, they are still a professional military force...

If they aren't World Eaters.

Mannimarco
13-10-2009, 23:31
theres a lot to chaos we dont see in the books, theres really no need for us to know who does it as we're only focussed on whats happening on the game but heres a breakdown anyway:

chaos do have apothecaries: the red corsairs had a short story where captured geneseed was given to him, they were also available in the realm of chaos army lists (then again so were chaplains so take from that what you will)

chaos forces do have their own weapon stores: in the vraks book zhufor was said to have joined in with abaddon so he could have access to his vast stores, failing that theres the dark mech for when you need new stuff or your bigger stuff repaired

remember that many chaos ships have hordes of slaves who scurry around, id imagine they take care of a lot of the food and "relaxation" issues, your edgy on your way to the next warzone? wail on a few slaves to take the edge off

PapaDoc
14-10-2009, 00:12
Thanks for all the replies.

The thing is I need to know because I am running a narrative campaign that is about a two large chaos warbands trying to take over a planet. I know chaos marines are badass but there is only so much you can do with 200 angry guys and chainswords when there are five regiments of IG and a bunch of chapters opposing you.

While I get they can store the weapons on the ships... how do they get them down to troops on ground? What method do they use to ensure that the right man gets the right gun on the right time?

I guess slaves would be a part of the logistical chain... but only a part of it. I don't think the slaves are given enough information to make the best logistical decisions. You see, logisticians work under very uncertain conditions. To make the best logistical judgements you need a very good understanding of strategy, the combat personel involved, current resources and such. This type of information is unfit to be handled by slave-labour.

I can see high ranking chaos marines being fit for the job but this kind "job" doesn't not put them into any kind of position that can allow them to achieve "glory in the battlefield in the name of their gods". Which is what every champion tries to do. Perhaps logistical duties are more of a punishment for failures among the powerarmoured servants of chaos.

@Fugazi
What happens when they run out of bolter shells?

guillimansknight
14-10-2009, 00:17
Hit them ?

They do have non-marine personnel like navigators so a logistics expert isn't hard to imagine.

Mannimarco
14-10-2009, 00:31
not so, ive always imagined navigation (especially through the warp) is done by the sorcerers as they can see the shifting tides

guillimansknight
14-10-2009, 00:37
not so, ive always imagined navigation (especially through the warp) is done by the sorcerers as they can see the shifting tides

They do have Navigators it's appeared in the fluff many times

And I do agree with them. I'd rather have a specailist who is completely dedicated to his task and Was BREED for the job when jumping into demonville

Mannimarco
14-10-2009, 00:41
ok cool, i could have sworn ive read sorcerers did it as well, need to go look through some books

guillimansknight
14-10-2009, 00:45
ok cool, i could have sworn ive read sorcerers did it as well, need to go look through some books

Well Typhon did it and that didn't go well.;)

Mannimarco
14-10-2009, 00:51
a little OT but yes typhon did do it and it went exactly as planned, the plan being to strand the death guard legion and let nurgle come to them

Xisor
14-10-2009, 01:52
Whilst the loyalist Astartes are, at best (thinking Black Templars [unrestrained and tons of fleet], Salamanders [smashing trade with Ad Mech] and Ultras [sector under their essential control]) able to muster tons of supplies and resupply, they really aren't thatp/i] well supported logistically. Their ships are basically flying supply stores so it's only when [i]those need resupplying that Chapter logistics come into much scrutiny, and that's not really noted.

For Chaos, I'd imagine their logistics are really much more...exotic and esoteric. And advanced, I'd argue. Chaos forces, though we see them as CSM and 'Renegade IG' and so forth, tend to operate in the lore as massive 'joint forces', much more often than their loyalist counterparts seem to do so.

With this in mind, turn our thoughts back to the starships. The Imperium sees Astartes and Imperial Navy (those operating the 'transports' for the IG) as essentially independent units working on concert. The Chaos forces, though?

The Chaos fleets are more hollistic. Their warband-like. Dominant Astartes is the whole purpose of the Heresy. Dominant. Not cooperative, dominant. Typhon, Abaddon, Erebus...that's their vision. And their vision is synonomous(?) with war.

Also, Chaos isn't chaos. Chaos (big c) is random and weird, chaos (small c) is massively ordered (but unpredictable). But that's beside the point. The forces of Chaos surely permit some of their less bloodthirsty minions to really indulge their passions. Some people love micromanagign things. Some people love organising. Ever met a fusspot, a busybody, an 'I love managing things' manager? Give them the power of a demigod and there's your Chaos logistics!

People still retain their aptitudes. Whilst I imagine there are magical means to sustaining the Chaos legions (I'm looking at you, Thousand Sons), I don't suppose that can be too extensive, especially not 'in reality' (as opposed to the warp). There can be summoning, and magic powers and so forth, but they all have their cost (if varied and odd) in reality. Such things don't negate logistics, but 'put it off', just shifts the question back 'out of reach'.

Chaos ships are ancient, but they're also good quality. Assuming their slaves are well orchestrated, I trust someone somewhere keeps them in good condition and that beyond that 'all is well'.

Sorry, a little rambling, but the whole lot seem to be 'on the ball', even if otherwise psycopathic. There's an inherent necessity to organise things. It might be shifting, complex or even utterly bizarre and nonsensical, but there'll be systems and lines and such. Breaking supply lines, in the manner of Dawn of War is perhaps more difficult because they won't work in the ways we understand them to, but we can be fairly certain there are ways to do it.

Still, to beat 'em, one might as well simply go Alaric and fight straight through the middle. You'd need to be Alaric for it to work though, but it'd be nice and simple!

sycopat
14-10-2009, 02:11
I always figured the slaves did it for them, and depending on the individual warlord those slaves might even do it willingly: Logistics slaves would have authority over other slaves, which would give them better living conditions.

Chaos is an entire society, founded on limitless personal freedom. In such an environment, those with the will, strength and ruthlessness rise to the top, subjugating all those below them.

Chaos underlings are slaves to chaos marines, not because they have been enslaved per se (Although most of them probably have been), but because refusing ones order or request will get you killed, messily, which is basically the same thing.

InquisitorNiels
14-10-2009, 08:11
I would imagine that there would be a person/marine in charge of the supply lines for chaos forces. Just because they turned their back on the Emperor and the Imperium does not mean they forgot how to organize their armies. While some of the Legions like the World Eaters might have broken down into small roving war bands who can get by on what supplies they find, or even given to them by their allies many still retain the infrastructure that they had before.

Because 40k is a game based on war that is normally what we see. Most aspect of the fluff focuses around this and does very little go into detail about such matters. As Nazguire said in Storm of Iron one of the Warsmith's commanders was an organizational genius. He had been overseeing the ebb and flow of supplies for 10,000 years and was very good at it.

In the end, like a lot of things in 40k there can be many answers to this question depending on how you want your warband to work. Maybe it is a well oiled machine where some one is in charge of making sure all the supplies get where they need to go, or perhaps it is a every man for himself style. There are supplies, probably obtained from the last raid, and each person needs to get what they need, or they go without.

Iuris
14-10-2009, 08:41
Nothing has ever been explained. However, some things are implied:
-Dark mechanicum -> chaos forge world equivalents
-Slave taking -> slave based mass production

Oh, and Chaos will need just as much logistic support as every other army. Food, water, clothing, ammo, fuel, lubricants, spare parts, transportation for the above, etc.

It's just that GW never remembers that there has to be some of it, somewhere.

Crazy Ivan
14-10-2009, 10:12
Oh, to give a real answer...and look, I'm not saying this is the correct answer, it's just how I personally view chaos. The chaos 'magic' sustains them. I don't view them as needing traditional supply chains. They may 'eat' food, but that's just going through the motions. They don't literally need it as sustenance.

But, hey, that's just my wacky view.


World Eater Chaos Marine: "Oh Khorne, Great Slayer of Worlds, Collector of Skulls, Lord of Rage, etc. I am feeling a little peckish. Could you please provide me with some snacks?"
Khorne: "BLOOD FROM THE BLOOD GOD!"
World Eater Chaos Marine: "Oh man, blood again? Awww..."

Killgore
14-10-2009, 11:32
and it has been argued many times that a World Eater would not sustain his blood frenzy 100% of his time. I expect they are perfectly capable of organising their supplys/ food without launching into a crazed slaughter of all who step near.

Crazy Ivan
14-10-2009, 11:45
and it has been argued many times that a World Eater would not sustain his blood frenzy 100% of his time. I expect they are perfectly capable of organising their supplys/ food without launching into a crazed slaughter of all who step near.
Oh, but I agree completely; were it otherwise, the World Eaters would be incapable of doing any of the invading we see them doing regularly, as they'd slaughter the crew of any ship that's transporting them.

My previous post was just in jest...

TheBigBadWolf
14-10-2009, 11:57
There is a bit in one of the BFG books about Chaos logistics with respect to fleet and troop supply, needless to say traitor ships and crews are loath to supply the warriors of chaos, leading them to be under equiped and under supplied.

ThePope
14-10-2009, 11:57
As has been said before "Storm of Iron" gives a very nice overview of logistics, its also an entertaining read!

pookie
14-10-2009, 16:27
ok cool, i could have sworn ive read sorcerers did it as well, need to go look through some books

your right they do, as do possessed marines, ive never known of a renegade Navigator ( not saying they dont exhist, i just aint come across one myself )