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broxus
14-10-2009, 02:27
After buying and reading the new SW codex all I can say is that I feel very cheated as an IG player. I cant belive how cheap the standard troops are, its just insane. I would like to compare a SW to a normal IG guardsman and tell me if you think all that it for 10pts you really get a steal. Remember that a guardsman is suppose to be the backbone of the IG army with armor to support it and should be a very good option for the price.

SW Bonuses:

Krak grenades
+1 WS
+1 STR
+1 INIT
+1 Toughness
+2 Armor Save
+1 Leadership
+1 BS
+2 AP for weapon
A bolter and Pistol/CC weapon
Free Special Weapons even a plasmagun at 10 models (and cheaper to upgrades to other ones)
Acute Senses
Counter Attack
And They Shall Know No Fear

Now the way I figure it is that if each upgrade costs only 1 point then each GW should cost about 21 pts to compare to the guardsmen. Im not saying that a guardsmen should rock or anything but WTF I think its almost a crime how over costed they are compared to any SM or espeically a SW. And please dont say orders even close to make up for it with very short range, using low leadership, and requring a second unit to make it work. Where is the army wide rule for IG?? Why didnt Vox's come free, grenade launchers for free, or even krak grenades.


How did army creep pass the IG codex so badly? I know that there are a few great options in the codex but some Vendetta wont win you the game troops will. The IG codex was an upgrade from the previous one but it was the worst one out there and lets face it most of us played it for fun and a challange to win with because it wasnt competitive at all.

I know some of you will say you cant judge the army in a vacuum but I will tell you that the basic infantry model in any army should be the backbone/baseline for any list or codex to diverge from. True the armor of the IG is very good but it is very expensive and if you want to flood the field with it then you have to take squadrons which has severe drawbacks. (why didnt they just give us more slots like they did for the SW HQ).

An all or mostly infantry list really isnt that competitive with IG, if your not mech heavy you wont very competitive. A troop heavy list should be competitive in ANY army list or codex!!
Anyways what do you guys think did the IG miss the Codex Creep boat?

Vaktathi
14-10-2009, 02:31
It didn't pass over the IG really. The army I field at 2000pts would be almost 600pts more under the previous codex, assuming that it had had vendettas and they were the same cost. I went from fielding 11 vehicles to fielding 15. :p

That said, basic infantry without armor support are still very poor, but better than they used to be. I'm not sure if a guard squad actually is worth 50pts (they really are not amazing at much) and as a footslogging unit are rather poor IMO, but when coupled with a chimerabunker and a couple upgrades, the unit as a whole is definitely worth about 120pts, or when massed into a single giant huge unit with a commissar and a bunch of special weapons they can be awesome as well.

noobzilla
14-10-2009, 02:31
As a Guard player for nearly my whole playing career. Watching the Guard get a new codex and hearing several complaints that it is "broken" is proof enough that they got stronger and are stronger than some of the other new codexes. I hold in my mind however that Guard are a top tier codex when played right and I think that Wolves are good but nothing broken or OP.


It didn't pass over the IG really. The army I field at 2000pts would be almost 600pts more under the previous codex, assuming that it had had vendettas and they were the same cost. I went from fielding 11 vehicles to fielding 15. :p

I went from 6 vehicles to 11 now with the same amount of guys. My opponents just can't kill all of that armor.

DeSnifter
14-10-2009, 02:32
No I just think you're playing them wrong or poorly. A truely well designed ig army can be a nasty thing to behold. And if ig are good at one thing it's giving those other min max armies like nob bikers and lash spam a huge pain in the ass. Ig didn't experience some of the rediculousness that has been seen in the space wolf book, but if you think ig are weak then you're doing something wrong.

MajorWesJanson
14-10-2009, 02:34
Ig picked up Valkyries, Vendettas, and Hydras all for quite cheap, Master of the Fleet and Astropaths, and easy ways to minimize cover saves, twin-link weapons, and gain more shots.

IG infantry are not meant to be that powerful, they win through numbers. It's the heavy weapons and vehicles that in battles for IG. Their armywide rules came in through orders and squadrons.

noobzilla
14-10-2009, 02:34
No I just think you're playing them wrong or poorly. A truely well designed ig army can be a nasty thing to behold. And if ig are good at one thing it's giving those other min max armies like nob bikers and lash spam a huge pain in the ass. Ig didn't experience some of the rediculousness that has been seen in the space wolf book, but if you think ig are weak then you're doing something wrong.

I have never had a problem with Lash or Nob Bikers. I just blow them away. Nidzilla is one of the builds I still struggle with.

broxus
14-10-2009, 02:36
As a Guard player for nearly my whole playing career. Watching the Guard get a new codex and hearing several complaints that it is "broken" is proof enough that they got stronger and are stronger than some of the other new codexes. I hold in my mind however that Guard are a top tier codex when played right and I think that Wolves are good but nothing broken or OP.


It didn't pass over the IG really. The army I field at 2000pts would be almost 600pts more under the previous codex, assuming that it had had vendettas and they were the same cost. I went from fielding 11 vehicles to fielding 15. :p

Guys, Im not saying they didnt get cheaper I think they got much better with the new codex but I am saying that they were just that bad before. In the previous IG codex's you where really at a 35-40% disadvantage right from the start.

An all or mostly infantry list really isnt that competitive with IG, if your not mech heavy you wont very competitive. IG was orginally based on this concept with vehicles to support. It has somehow forced us to make vehicle armies with limited infantry support it. Its a role-reversal. The sad part what really got me into this game was the whole idea of that IG trooper on the line could be anyone of us he is just the guy next door fighting for a cause. I want the power to lie in the human spirit not solely in the tanks we have. Thinks of Starship Troopers the movie and the mobile infantry.

SideshowLucifer
14-10-2009, 02:42
The IG codex is probably the one Codex I point to as the best written one for this edition. This is finialy the Codex they have deserved. If you feel cheated, I don't think this is the game for you.

TheEndIsHere
14-10-2009, 02:44
IG does not use their troops as main "anything" other armies that do (like necrons) suffered more.

Compare grey hunter to a necron warrior:

Pro: -WBB
-Gauss
-Higher LD
-Evil Robots
-Look cooler
-Don't ride huge wolves
-Don't need to shave
-Our gods are the closest things to gods in the material universe
-We are green
-Our codex doesn't smell like new shoes
-We don't get unwanted presents at chrismas
-We have technology in other codecies
-We aren't fat
-We don't drink

Con:-Phase out
-Lower A
-Lower I
-No counter attack
-No ATSKNF
-No special weapons
-More expensive
-Has to take more for minimum req
-No transport
-Can be swept
-No decent anti tank
-No decent anti armour
-Suck in close combat
-Don't get girls
-SW don't EVEN shave -.-
-We always look like we gotta go ****...

Worth it? Hell yes...

Necrons are cool but underpowered!

D-End

DeSnifter
14-10-2009, 02:46
That's what I was saying, the new ig are great at dealing with those min max armies like nob bikers and lash spam. A well designed ig army can be absolutely foul. Besides it's not the individual guardsman that wins the day, it's how they combine with the overall force and how they interact with the other components that does. Either you want spacewolves to cost a bunch more, or you think ig should cost a bunch less. I don know about you but the new ig book always allows me several hundred more points to play with than the old ig. An individual guardsmen sucks, and is supposed to suck... The guard ARMY is what's the nasty beast. I'm surprised you're not angier at the absolute steal plaguemarines are

Bunnahabhain
14-10-2009, 02:47
Nope, they were not that bad before. ~15% overpriced on average, not 35-40%.

Basic infantry are still a little underpowered for their cost, but not nearly so much, and they are now much easier to fit to a role.

Vaktathi
14-10-2009, 02:49
I think the creep is rather subtle with IG beyond numbers. Many of the changes were desperately needed, and most IG units on their own are still rather expensive for their likely value.

However the abilities of advisors, Chimerabunkers, lumbering behemoth, better LRBT side armor, and a much greater array of units however, coupled with the numbers available to an army, can serve to collectively undermine an enemies force, and provide such a ridiculous degree of target saturation that they simply cannot deal with an IG army.

Really, the ability to fire 5 models out of a chimera is one of the strongest abilities in the game that make the mechanization of an imperial guard army so powerful, and makes an opponents anti-infantry capabilities almost entirely worthless. The price drop was needed, no doubt. But the ability to use the Chimera essentially as a bunker that a squad can fire all their relevant firepower out of is quite simply astounding, and probably what I would label "creep".

The closest game I've had with my IG in months was playing against a codex SM army, while playing 250pts short, and still tied on KP's.

TheEndIsHere
14-10-2009, 02:49
Nope, they were not that bad before. ~15% overpriced on average, not 35-40%.

Basic infantry are still a little underpowered for their cost, but not nearly so much, and they are now much easier to fit to a role.

I'm not sure what to do with 40k anymore,

What do you do when over 50% of things are underpriced?

Just say the other 40-49.9% are over priced? Or do you adjust everything?

Something is not working well..

D-End

CKO
14-10-2009, 02:51
IG won Ard Boyz, in my local gaming area IG always place, IG have the best tanks or atleast the most versatile.

Cognitave
14-10-2009, 02:51
They are still not top tier or pushing all codex's to be more powerful this was a catch up of sorts to the newer versions.

They may not have a cookie-cutter power build like 'nids, Orks, or Chaos do, but they're still very good. The guard book was very generous with their firepower allotment. It makes the SM codex very mild looking. Vandettas are just insane.

I like the assurance I get every time I thumb through my copy of the Imperial Guard codex. No matter how OTT GW gets, whether it be psykers, mc's, or super soldiers from hell, the Guard will always have a stupid amount of firepower, at an even stupider price, for the job.

broxus
14-10-2009, 02:53
That's what I was saying, the new ig are great at dealing with those min max armies like nob bikers and lash spam. A well designed ig army can be absolutely foul. Besides it's not the individual guardsman that wins the day, it's how they combine with the overall force and how they interact with the other components that does. Either you want spacewolves to cost a bunch more, or you think ig should cost a bunch less. I don know about you but the new ig book always allows me several hundred more points to play with than the old ig. An individual guardsmen sucks, and is supposed to suck... The guard ARMY is what's the nasty beast. I'm surprised you're not angier at the absolute steal plaguemarines are

Well I would have hated to see IG cost lest but hey how about adding the following rules to make them somewhat worth the cost for a 50pt unit.
1) Grenade launcher for free
2) Auto Cannon for free
3) Vox Free for each squad and now give unlimited range to orders
4) Leadership bubble for officer to units the same as the current orders bubble.
5) Orders used with officers leadership in this bubble


That may start to get us even in the realm of worth the points. That would feel like a coherant infantry ruleset and armywide special rule.

CKO
14-10-2009, 02:53
I think the new IG codex is perfect, IG is all about overwhelming with tanks or bodies.

Writerski7
14-10-2009, 03:02
I think the new IG codex is perfect, IG is all about overwhelming with tanks or bodies.

And add in the Command Squad orders like Move! Move! Move! and First rank FIRE! Second rank FIRE! . . .

CKO
14-10-2009, 03:08
You can not isolate and compare codexes like that, you have to appreciate the bigger picture.

Lion El Jason
14-10-2009, 03:08
IG certainly got a full dose of crazy from GW, right in between the line of punching out a god and marines riding wolves is the IG codex with its guardsmen as the best trained troops in the galaxy.

Squallish
14-10-2009, 03:13
Mechanized Guard are insanely strong right now. Only Vulkan lists really have the amount of anti-tank *and* anti-horde power to beat 7-10 Chimeras + 3 Russes + 2 Hellhounds.

Foot Guard may be weak, but you're only crippling yourself if you go on foot.. you need mobility in 5th edition to take objectives. Guard's mobility is Chimeras. Necrons is Monolith and Veil. Eldar is Serpents and Jetbikes. If you don't have some mobile element in your army in 5th, you'll die.

Guardsmen are fine as well. Compare them to Guardians. +3 pts for.. I4, Ld 8... and a shorter range weapon? And their Heavy Weapons are more expensive than the IG ones. Compare 3 Guardsmen in cover vs 1 Marine... the Guardsmen will win in a vacuum.

The creep hit you just fine.. the Space Wolves just got some nice toys on the cheap as well.

Writerski7
14-10-2009, 03:20
Mechanized Guard are insanely strong right now. Only Vulkan lists really have the amount of anti-tank *and* anti-horde power to beat 7-10 Chimeras + 3 Russes + 2 Hellhounds.

Foot Guard may be weak, but you're only crippling yourself if you go on foot.. you need mobility in 5th edition to take objectives. Guard's mobility is Chimeras. Necrons is Monolith and Veil. Eldar is Serpents and Jetbikes. If you don't have some mobile element in your army in 5th, you'll die.

Guardsmen are fine as well. Compare them to Guardians. +3 pts for.. I4, Ld 8... and a shorter range weapon? And their Heavy Weapons are more expensive than the IG ones. Compare 3 Guardsmen in cover vs 1 Marine... the Guardsmen will win in a vacuum.

The creep hit you just fine.. the Space Wolves just got some nice toys on the cheap as well.

You know SM can survive a vacuum while guardsmen cannot, right? I'd say in a display of sheer firepower IG win hands down . . . Let me use this here Baneblade to make my point . . .

THose who have had their a** powered down by a mob of Guardsmen know exactly what I mean. I hate Marbo, outflank, and IG megasquads . . .

Cognitave
14-10-2009, 03:30
GW actually said it best.

"The Space Marines are often referred to as the Sword of the Emperor, a precision instrument to strike into the heart of the Imperium's enemies. If this analogy is fitting, then the likening of the Imperial Guard to a large, blunt sledgehammer is even more so for the Imperial Guard is seldom, if ever, subtle or swift..."

Arakanis
14-10-2009, 03:35
Oh my god. When are people going to realize: there is no codex creep.

This is the just the face of 5th edition (and lets be honest, it looks a lot like 2nd edition)

When all is said and done, the codices will match up nicely and we will remember 5th as those wacky days of Jaws of the World Wolf, Psyker Battle Squads, Carnifex Squadrons, and Vulkan

Meriwether
14-10-2009, 03:37
Hee hee hee. We go from "OMG the IG are SO FREAKING BROKEN IT'S BLOWING MY FREAKING MIND, MAN!" to "IG are underpowered" in one codex...

SW are not game-breakingly good. IG are not game-breakingly good. Orks are not game-breakingly good. Neither is any other army.

When you realize you can't do it all because of FOC and/or point limitations, each codex comes down to "wow, I have a great deal of fantastic options, but now I have to pick and choose" -- which is exactly what a codex should be. IMO, Phil Kelly is _the man_ when it comes to writing codices that provide a plethora of fantastic options that is not overbalanced because of FOC and points.

Meri

Bonzai
14-10-2009, 03:37
I would say that a good mechanized guard list is right up there with near anything. They are really strong right now. As a Necron player, I used to have no fear of guard. But now they can field more vehicles than I can reliably punch through in a game, and dish out enough firepower to slaughter a unit or 2 a turn. Nothing flashy or cheesy, just very very solid.

I would put them up on the level of Orks and Chaos in terms of power. I haven't seen the new Wolves dex in action yet, so I can't rate it.

CKO
14-10-2009, 03:45
IMO, Phil Kelly is _the man_ when it comes to writing codices that provide a plethora of fantastic options that is not overbalanced because of FOC and points.

Yes, he and Robin Cruddace should be the only people to write codexes, wait when the nids come out they would have written the last three, a pattern GW should keep.

broxus
14-10-2009, 04:38
I know everyone says the IG armor company is tough to beat but really it isnt. The only reason its hard is that if you dont take that much anti armor to counter it then you will lose and most people dont tend to take lots of anti armor in tournment/balanced list. Its the same as taking a nidzilla, swarm list that someone isnt prepared for. If you know your playing IG just put out lost of melta/Lascannon and you will own them its very counterable.

The problem is that IG infantry are suppose to be the backbone of the army and it isnt. Its horrible all around as it should be but the point costs should reflect that. Its sad that the transport is an all around better unit than the guys inside of it in everyway. My major problem is that for the points IG got the shaft with infantry in everyway and have forced us to be mech armor lists that are easily counterable if someone knows they are going to play you.

Writerski7
14-10-2009, 04:43
You ever see what happens when you take 9 Broadside Battlesuits against an IG mechanised army? 9 twin-linked strength ten shots plus Smart Missiles and Markerlights when they get close enough . . . And the fact each and every infantryman suffers an automatic strength 4 hit when their transport is destroyed . . . Let's picture the outcome for but a moment, shall we?

. . .

Result: Mechanised IG is in no way overpowered.

Meriwether
14-10-2009, 04:44
Every piece of armor that dies provides cover -- exactly where you want cover, if you're smart.

Instead of party-pooping your options, why don't you discover what works, and try it out? The general consensus is that the IG dex is very powerful -- so if it's not working for you, maybe it's *you* that needs adjustment, and not it. (No offense intended. Truly.)

Meri

e2055261
14-10-2009, 04:54
Hee hee hee. We go from "OMG the IG are SO FREAKING BROKEN IT'S BLOWING MY FREAKING MIND, MAN!" to "IG are underpowered" in one codex...

SW are not game-breakingly good. IG are not game-breakingly good. Orks are not game-breakingly good. Neither is any other army.

When you realize you can't do it all because of FOC and/or point limitations, each codex comes down to "wow, I have a great deal of fantastic options, but now I have to pick and choose" -- which is exactly what a codex should be. IMO, Phil Kelly is _the man_ when it comes to writing codices that provide a plethora of fantastic options that is not overbalanced because of FOC and points.

Meri

I agree almost entirely. However, Space Wolves are pretty stupid.

Meriwether
14-10-2009, 04:59
Their SCs seem awesome... Until you realize that they're all 200+ points.

Their elites seem awesome... Until you see the price and the limit of three.

Their...

Well, you get the idea. SW have always been stupid, image-wise. Codex-wise, they look competitive, varied in play-style, and hard as nails. Exactly as I would hope every codex would be.

Meri

Writerski7
14-10-2009, 05:00
Every piece of armor that dies provides cover -- exactly where you want cover, if you're smart.

Instead of party-pooping your options, why don't you discover what works, and try it out? The general consensus is that the IG dex is very powerful -- so if it's not working for you, maybe it's *you* that needs adjustment, and not it. (No offense intended. Truly.)

Meri

Hence the Smart-missile systems. THey tend to ignore cover.

By no way am I saying Tau kick butt. We all know they suck right now. But I'm saying that it's not the army so much as it's the player.

senorcardgage
14-10-2009, 05:24
You ever see what happens when you take 9 Broadside Battlesuits against an IG mechanised army? 9 twin-linked strength ten shots plus Smart Missiles and Markerlights when they get close enough . . . And the fact each and every infantryman suffers an automatic strength 4 hit when their transport is destroyed . . . Let's picture the outcome for but a moment, shall we?

. . .

Result: Mechanised IG is in no way overpowered.

So because there exists a list that can beat IG relatively easy, they aren't overpowered? Love your logic.

Cognitave
14-10-2009, 05:36
So because there exists a list that can beat IG relatively easy, they aren't overpowered? Love your logic.

It was only a matter of time before it digressed into that kind of thread...

Are guard powerful? Yes. Game-breaking? No. I've had both good and bad games against them, as have many other players. It's all about finding what makes their army tick and breaking it.

Just in case, in b4 QQ.

broxus
14-10-2009, 07:19
Every piece of armor that dies provides cover -- exactly where you want cover, if you're smart.

Instead of party-pooping your options, why don't you discover what works, and try it out? The general consensus is that the IG dex is very powerful -- so if it's not working for you, maybe it's *you* that needs adjustment, and not it. (No offense intended. Truly.)

Meri

When at any point in any of my posts did I say that I cant win with them? I am pretty good at playing the game and normally always win, though not due to the codex. I never said the codex sucked I just said it lacks behind the codex creep of other ones point for point. The IG does have the all mech army trick pony but as I stated earlier its because you cant beat that with an all comers list at a tournment.

My main issue is how undercosted all over other infantry troops are lately or over costed the IG troops are. Im not sure which is the case honestly. Troops should be the mainstay of all armies not viewed as some anoying requirment in order to buy a transport which is better in every way (Chimera) and has more firepower and is cheaper. Other units should support the troop choices not the other way around.

Vaktathi
14-10-2009, 07:24
IG infantry probably are overcosted. And if you want to run an all infantry army it will be inferior to an armor heavy list. Most people wont debate that. Vets without a chimera are hideously overcosted.

That said, with a mech list, the IG army becomes incredibly powerful, and tailoring to beat a solid IG mech list is hard, as even some of the most tailored army lists tooled up for AT will have trouble killing off an IG mech list with 15 AV12+ vehicles.

starlight
14-10-2009, 07:28
Tis funny that IG have finally returned to the points costs they were at the beginning of 3rd Ed...when the term SAFH was coined because nothing could stand up to an IG gunline of that time...and today the same army has even more advantages...and is considered underpowered...:eek:

IcedAnimals
14-10-2009, 07:41
Oh my god. When are people going to realize: there is no codex creep.

This is the just the face of 5th edition (and lets be honest, it looks a lot like 2nd edition)

When all is said and done, the codices will match up nicely and we will remember 5th as those wacky days of Jaws of the World Wolf, Psyker Battle Squads, Carnifex Squadrons, and Vulkan

Denying codex creep is like denying the sky is blue. yes its not "blue" all the time and its actually a lighter shade of blue but it is still blue.

Can you honestly say that this new space wolf codex is not better than the previous? Or that this guard codex is not better than the previous? Without codex creep allowing you to field more models than your previous incarnation of your army GW would have gone out of business by now.

Is it as bad as people tend to think where a new codex is so broken that the codex released just a few months before is at a huge disadvantage? no. But the term "creep" doesn't mean quick drastic changes. It is as the term implies, a gradual change that in this hobbies case "creeps" over the years.

Murphy's law
14-10-2009, 07:54
There is no reason to complain about the guard codex.
To me this army lost it's flavour because of all the mech-builds.
Getting sick of all the chimera-veterans-melta-vendetta- army's.

It's gotten to the point that i've sold my imperial guard and started playing Tyranids.
But the codex itself isn't the problem, it's fine.
Complaining about overcosted guardsmen, come on...allmost everything is dirt cheap.

Emperor's Scourge
14-10-2009, 08:10
A lot of people are confusing "mainstay" and "backbone" with "best units in the army."

Infantry is the backbone of any conventional army. Doesn't mean they can run up and falcon punch tanks with their bare hands.

Badger[Fr]
14-10-2009, 08:17
You can not isolate and compare codexes like that, you have to appreciate the bigger picture.
Indeed. The bog-standard Infantry squad is probably overpriced. The Command squads, though, are grossly underpriced. 50 points for BS 4 squad that can almost double the efficiency of two 30-man infantry squads at a time? This is sheer Sparta madness.

It's a clever design decision that turns the spotlight on the IG chain of command, and favours tactical thinking over a boring and mindless infantry spam. Well done, Mr Cruddace.



To me this army lost it's flavour because of all the mech-builds.
Getting sick of all the chimera-veterans-melta-vendetta- army's.
Well, the last book favoured Mech Builds as well, because they were the only way to remain slightly competitive, along with the boring but deadly all-deepstriking army.

Squallish
14-10-2009, 08:21
Doesn't mean they can run up and falcon punch tanks with their bare hands.

Show me your moves!

laudarkul
14-10-2009, 08:29
IG is perfect balanced right now. The troops finally have a fair cost in points (ok there is always place for improvement (free vox, free grenades ;) ), the lumbering behemoth rule is perfect and the orders system is quite an improvement. Ok mech vet may seems a little bit overpowered but I thing that a classic line IG army list just devastate such a list, a SM list with a LR a Predator and maybe a Vindicator/devastators squad and the rest troops can smash also the mech IG list easily. So it's nothing broken with IG, just a great diversity and an a codex balanced for the 5 edition.

Vaktathi
14-10-2009, 08:38
a SM list with a LR a Predator and maybe a Vindicator/devastators squad and the rest troops can smash also the mech IG list easily. Actually, I've found it really can't. I played such a list last week, at 250pts short (2k SM vs 1750 IG), and it barely managed to tie me. In KP's (the SM list with 13 IIRC and my IG with 20, we both got 10). The amount of target overload, the utility of chimerabunkers, and the power of vendettas (especially when coupled with LRBT to hit stuff as it comes out of rhinos) really put a huge strain on SM forces that they usually can't overcome. I've found SM's to be among some of the easiest opponents for mech IG.

Murphy's law
14-10-2009, 08:39
;4036718']Indeed. The bog-standard Infantry squad is probably overpriced. The Command squads, though, are grossly underpriced. 50 points for BS 4 squad that can almost double the efficiency of two 30-man infantry squads at a time? This is sheer Sparta madness.

It's a clever design decision that turns the spotlight on the IG chain of command, and favours tactical thinking over a boring and mindless infantry spam. Well done, Mr Cruddace.


Well, the last book favoured Mech Builds as well, because they were the only way to remain slightly competitive, along with the boring but deadly all-deepstriking army.

Chimera's costed way to much in the last codex and i didn't see/used more then 1 or 2 on the tabletop.
Deepstriking was very common, yes, but they weren't mechanised and died like fly's after they arrived.
I think the last codex was much different(not better, just diffferent)
But to me the "problem" is the players who "abuse" these options.
Which is 100% legal and they are fully entitled to use their codex the way they want.
To me it's just boring and i started to dislike the Imperial Guard because of that.

Vaktathi
14-10-2009, 08:42
Chimera's costed way to much in the last codex and i didn't see/used more then 1 or 2 on the tabletop.
Deepstriking was very common, yes, but they weren't mechanised and died like fly's after they arrived.
I think the last codex was much different(not better, just diffferent)
But to me the "problem" is the players who "abuse" these options.
Whick is 100% legal and they are fully entitled to use their models they want.
To me it's just boring and i started to dislike the Imperial Guard because of that.

Well, Tyranids are next on the list, being written by the same guy. So ah, don't expect much of anything different :p

Murphy's law
14-10-2009, 09:00
Well, Tyranids are next on the list, being written by the same guy. So ah, don't expect much of anything different :p

Cool! I've allways wanted to put carnifexs in chimera's!:D

Vaktathi
14-10-2009, 09:01
Cool! I've allways wanted to put carnifexs in chimera's!:D

:D

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of Carnifex's shooting Genestealers.

Murphy's law
14-10-2009, 09:06
:D

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of Carnifex's shooting Genestealers.

What about winged Carnifexs with 3 twin linked venom cannons and a transport capability of 10 genestealers?:D
Outlfanking ofcourse!

Karhedron
14-10-2009, 09:07
What do you do when over 50% of things are underpriced?

Just say the other 40-49.9% are over priced? Or do you adjust everything?
Umm, assuming that nothing in this world is perfect then by definition 50% of units will be undercosted and the other 50% overcosted.

It is like saying that 50% of the population of the world are of above average intelligence. :p

Xelloss
14-10-2009, 10:17
Mechanized Guard are insanely strong right now.
I always heard that the Armoured Company was so good it wasn't accepted everywhere, and with the new codex you can almost do the same legally... No wonder it works good.


Oh my god. When are people going to realize: there is no codex creep.
Yes and no, but that depends essentially on what you call "codex creep". Armies designed for 5th ed are much more similar in level than with the previous ones (DA are almost SM but with less units, worse gear and more expensive - I don't call it balanced), but as the codex release is slow as hell those that are yet to be updated are more and more surrounded by armies balanced at an higher level.
SW for example seems really cheap for what they are, but maybe we just are overlooking or underestimating some flaws... But they are without doubt stronger than the previous version.

Vaktathi
14-10-2009, 10:30
I always heard that the Armoured Company was so good it wasn't accepted everywhere, and with the new codex you can almost do the same legally... No wonder it works good. The old AC list under 4th was very "meh". It was a very win big/lose big army, and actually itself had a difficult time against other tank heavy lists, and especially skimmers. Eldar 4E skimmerspam ate it alive with almost no effort. Some armies just couldn't deal with the mass of AV14. Those that could or could outmaneuver it, trashed it. They did allow it at GT's for several years before they start cutting lists that weren't in hardbound codex's.

The current IG mech list I think is actually stronger because, while you can't field as many LRBT's or field them as effectively, the rest of the list and infantry can be mechanized far more effectively and the vehicles all have a greater variety of abilities, and the Leman Russ tanks that you can field are also better now.

Brother Loki
14-10-2009, 10:34
Points values aside, a guard army can potentially field 84 scoring units in a single FOC. Space Wolves can field 6.

I don't think Guard are underpowered.

Nicha11
14-10-2009, 10:37
Guard are certainely not underpowered, especially if they tailor their lists.
I used to thrash my IG brother with my Death Guard all the time, until he took the tank with x5 plasma cannons and
3 Veteran squads with x3 plasma each, Death Guard hate plasma.

killyourown
14-10-2009, 10:42
What's the point of comparing units in a like for like way between codecies? None that's what.

GW write a codex so it is balenced over the whole army, not so you can play
"core unit top trumps". Guard are pretty competative now as are SW, if you're all writing "all comers" lists then they are both great lists. I don't see any problem with either book, only the way people are analysing them!

Kriegfreak
14-10-2009, 10:51
Codex seems fine to me, I'm loving it. Still loosing to great players who know what they are doing, and always doing well. Granted bad luck can still spell total failure. I usually always run with a fluff-oriented army though. If I changed it up to field much more powerful units I'd likely have won a lot of the losses I suffered. I'm looking forward to bulking out my guard, I'd like to try a mostly infantry force. Assuming of course I win the lottery.

mughi3
14-10-2009, 10:55
Nicha11
said it best, the new IG dex is very effective if you do the right combos together. they are more like eldar now-very specialised(and AP1-3 heavy). i've written up a few very effective lists,


However i am not willing to drop that much money to build them, espcially after GW has raised prices so much.

Bunnahabhain
14-10-2009, 11:12
Points values aside, a guard army can potentially field 84 scoring units in a single FOC. Space Wolves can field 6.

90 actually. You forgot either the conscripts or platoon command squads...

In a 'What's best, points no object' type contest the Imperial Guard always win.

This is in assorted sigs, as it's true.

It would have been nice if infantry heavy lists were as competitive as the mechanised ones, but the whole meta game is currently favouring mech lists, so it wasn't ever likely.

shabbadoo
14-10-2009, 11:35
After buying and reading the new SW codex all I can say is that I feel very cheated as an IG player.

Yeah! IG not getting any new weapons for every situation, lower costing vehicles, better armored vehicles, more platoon options, special orders, psyker squads or craziness, and nothing else of note is surely a travesty! It is not even possible to list of all of the stuff that IG didn't get!

Rabble! Rabble! Rabble! :p ;)

blake
14-10-2009, 12:10
These threads are getting even more and more rediculous. I had to go back and read the OP's posts in this thread like 3-4 times because i at first thought this thread was created in an amusing attempt at satire from someone who could've pulled off a "troll" perfectly, yet the more I read the OP's posts it occured to me that he was serious.

Your upset at the IG codex because an all Infantry army isn't as good as you would like it to be, so you compare the basic Guardsman to a Space Wolf??? You could compare the guardsman to pretty much anything else in the game and he would come up behind. Oh and your boo'hooing because all infantry armies are not as good as you like...well guess what an all infantry Space Wolf army is going to get blown to bits by the same armies that blow your footslogging IG to bits, too.

Space Wolves are fine, the post-codex nerd shock is starting to slowly fade as more games are played with them, and before long the nerd rage will be focused on the new bugs.

Putty
14-10-2009, 14:32
Believe it or not, the new SW is pretty balanced rather than "over-powered".

You can pump all your points into the Priests and SCs and you'll end up with limited points to contribute to your troops. Killhammer theory can render your army unable to capture objectives because the skimped points on troops mean they can get gotten rid of easily.

The IG codex on the other hand, is so versatile (much like the new SM codex) that it borders on "very good". Its a codex that boasts many effective army builds unlike the few of SW.

I refrain from saying anything is "over-powered" in 40k.

A good example of over-powered-ness is Daemons in Fantasy.

No army in 40k has such notoriety.

Tyranids will always have a challenge against armies that is able to pack more than 8 melta-class, flamer, big blast, template weapons (eg. SM and IG)

loveless
14-10-2009, 14:53
Codex Creep is a faerie tale.

The IG have some very powerful builds - their problems from their last book were fixed quite nicely for the most part.

Space Wolves also have some powerful builds, but the more I read that book, the more balanced it seems.

Honestly, though, the comparison of a Guardsman to a Space Wolf made me chuckle.


Aside - Putty, I think you can edit that 10 quid line out of your signature now :p

Putty
14-10-2009, 15:06
Aside - Putty, I think you can edit that 10 quid line out of your signature now :p

Nah, I'll leave it on till them Niddys get out :p

Just in case. :angel:

explorator
14-10-2009, 16:36
I think the new IG codex is perfect, IG is all about overwhelming with tanks or bodies.

Wha-what? Perfect? I would love to see your army of Priests, Engiseers, Ogryn, Storm Troopers, Conscipts, Penal Legionaires and Armored Sentinels. Pfft. IG players are sooo grateful to have some competative builds they sometimes overlook all the junk in the codex.


IG is perfect balanced right now. The troops finally have a fair cost in points (ok there is always place for improvement (free vox, free grenades ;)

This is closer to the truth.


Codex Creep is a faerie tale.

Do you mean to say it is a myth?

The IG codex does have tons of great options, but there are also some units/builds that NO ONE takes. The problem with this thread is that we are discussing two different topics; (1)the value of IG troops vs. SW troops, and (2)codex creep.

Guard Infantry are overpriced/under-equiped, and codex creep is real. Codex creep is hard to see in the moment, despite claims that every new codex is OP, and only becomes apparent in hindsight.

Meriwether
14-10-2009, 16:41
But saying that Guard Infantry are overpriced/underequipped is like saying that grotz are overpriced/underequipped. It makes *no sense* to make that kind of comparison, because you have to look at the army as a synergistic whole.

Meri

loveless
14-10-2009, 16:46
Do you mean to say it is a myth?

Guard Infantry are overpriced/under-equiped, and codex creep is real. Codex creep is hard to see in the moment, despite claims that every new codex is OP, and only becomes apparent in hindsight.

No, it's not a beast of mythic proportions. Rather, it's a simple little creature that either plays tricks on gamers or is easily squashed by the appropriate application of brute force. Regardless, neither version really exists ;)

I will agree to some point that the power level of a given book is never made apparent until a few months after its release. Then you realize that, "oh wait, my Codex can still beat the new Codex!"

Exceptions, of course, are the 3rd Edition Codices. This, however, is not what you call "Codex Creep." This problem is "Edition Creep," and is more of a factor of changing core rules than it is changing opponents. (Example: Necrons did not become weaker due to Space Marines, Imperial Guard, or Space Wolves. Rather, the problem is initiated through the changes in 5th Edition 40K)

Wargaming Forums are an endless waltz - the three beats of hope, DOOM!, and acceptance carry on for all eternity.

Besides, you Omaha gamers never seem to be the lot for complaining about a Codex. Unless your main gaming local is Dragon's Lair...which if it is, I can suggest some better places for you to play at :p

Badger[Fr]
14-10-2009, 17:26
The IG Codex is good and competitive, but its overall internal balance, while not as bad as the Space Marine's, is disappointing. The HQ choices are ridiculously unbalanced - why would anyone refuse to field a Command Squad is beyond me, and the new Leman Russes variants are more, often than not, overcosted and / or overspecialized. Not to mention SC that are almost more expensive than the squad they upgrade... Poor Nork, he's probably the most useless SC in the whole game at the moment.

Artillery and orders are the best parts of the book, IMHO.

Juggalo
14-10-2009, 17:34
IG is not underpowered, I think, but most of the list's power resides in its vehicles. Both the chimeras and Russes got a big price discount, we got some amazing artillery pieces, and of course, the awesome Vendetta made its debut.

I do think the platoon troops are a bit overcosted, but for 150 points, you get 20 guardsmen with 2 autocannons and two plasmaguns. In the new mechanized meta, that puts out six S7 shots, and I'm sure will make a dent with the upcoming Thunderwolf and TMC craze that will no doubt rear its ugly head. In rapid fire range, it can also put a withering hail of firepower (although the Sarges missing lasguns is incredibly stupid). Overall, though, Veterans are probably more cost effective.

And, of course, there are several things in the codex that are pretty terrible, like the Stormtroopers, Lord Commissar, and almost all the special characters (and even the good ones are overpriced).

fluffstalker
14-10-2009, 17:48
IG are definitely in a good place right now, going by purely competitive terms.

That being said I agree with Juggalo that certain choices in the codex are still very much gibbed; as a whole the codex pretty much forces you to spam vehicles and minimize on your infantry, and also discourages tailored special forces armies (as STs are overpriced for what they do).

I suppose thats true for multiple codices in 5th, but its something Id like GW to change by 6th ed. Players should be able to play several styles of armies and not render themselves ineffectual simply because of the current meta-game.

Despite this Ill still play my Mordians in a balanced infantry/mech list, and I currently have two, yes two chimeras and will not go over this. Im still doing well against the mech armies at my club and its immensely satisfying to know I can do it without vendetta/AV 12 spam.

broxus
14-10-2009, 19:53
There is no reason to complain about the guard codex.
To me this army lost it's flavour because of all the mech-builds.
Getting sick of all the chimera-veterans-melta-vendetta- army's.

It's gotten to the point that i've sold my imperial guard and started playing Tyranids.
But the codex itself isn't the problem, it's fine.
Complaining about overcosted guardsmen, come on...allmost everything is dirt cheap.

You summed up my entire problem with the new codex. It has one powerful build that can be beat if someone is ready for it.

Badger[Fr]
14-10-2009, 20:21
It has one powerful build that can be beat if someone is ready for it.
It has one very powerful mechanized build... And plenty of viable and powerful hybrid builds. Combined squads are a mainstay of IG armies, and remain a very efficient troop choice, thanks to Orders. Blame your opponents lack of originality for the blandness of the IG armies you have to face.

laudarkul
14-10-2009, 20:58
And, of course, there are several things in the codex that are pretty terrible, like the Stormtroopers, Lord Commissar, and almost all the special characters (and even the good ones are overpriced).

In a 2000 pts army list I always find some points for a Deep Strike 5xmen ST squad (re-roll scatter it's perfect) armed with 2 melta/2plasma. They performed well (the melta squad just blows up vehicles forcing the enemy to disembark in order to get a pie plate/the plasma armed won me a game against a CSM just by deep striking them close to their objective and smashing the marines squad in rapid fire then going to fight hand to hand some obliterators). I do not consider them terrible; just more options.

ashc
14-10-2009, 22:13
You summed up my entire problem with the new codex. It has one powerful build that can be beat if someone is ready for it.

And yet you argue that an alternative *one* build is not powerful enough.

If you feel that infantry squads are that terrible, then what would *you* have done with them if you had written their rules?

Jayden63
14-10-2009, 23:23
The new guard codex made my Tau and Ork armies cry like little babies. They would both happily face anything build from the SW codex than another guard army.

Corrode
14-10-2009, 23:47
This thread almost makes me miss the 'OMG THE NEW GUARD ARE TEH CODEX CREEP OVERPOWERED' threads.

Dexter099
15-10-2009, 02:16
The only real problem rules-wise with the SW codex is the grey hunter pack.

Them being so cheap throws off all internal balance whatsoever.

druchii
15-10-2009, 02:41
The only real problem rules-wise with the SW codex is the grey hunter pack.

Them being so cheap throws off all internal balance whatsoever.

No. They. Don't.

See what I did there?

d

Juggalo
15-10-2009, 03:06
Grey Hunters are pretty damn awesome. So awesome that they make Blood Claws look like crap by comparison. I, too, was surprised at their low cost. And mech GH spam with Rune Priests will probably be the most effective and brutal build. I still rather face that (I'm used to losing combat to marines... now I just really really lose it) than a template-packed IG army.

Writerski7
15-10-2009, 03:26
:rolleyes:

Waseer will be Warseer

DuskRaider
15-10-2009, 03:45
Alright, first thing's first... Much like the cake, codex creep is a lie. People compare a current codex like Space Wolves to one like Necron or Inquisition and guess what? Yeah, there's a power gain! But wait, let's retrace our steps a bit... One was written for the current 5th Edition rule set and takes into the account the focus of said current rules, whilst the others are from two editions back, they're designed for said edition, and in their time they were actually quite potent.

Second thing... The IG codex is NOT underpowered. Is a Guard weak compared to a Space Wolf? Well duh... Let's think about this for a moment... A normal human being, we'll say in top physical shape, wearing what is probably equivalent to flak armour and armed with the future M4... compared to a genetically enhanced super soldier, in nuclear powered armour which more or less makes this super soldier a walking tank, armed with a gun that launches miniature warheads. Wow... Yeah, I can see how these two would be on equal footing.

Sarcasm aside, look at the big picture. How many troops can you field in an Imperial Guard force at 1850 compared to that of a Space Wolves force at the same point cap? How many tanks can you field? How many different orders can you give, how many special characters do you have that grant special abilities, and how many FLYING TRANSPORTS can you have? I think it speaks for itself.

Is this thread an elaborate trolling, or is it real? Because I'm kind of beside myself with the audacity just eminating off of this whole topic. Ahh well, sargasm over.

-IronWarrior-
15-10-2009, 06:20
As a Guard player for nearly my whole playing career. Watching the Guard get a new codex and hearing several complaints that it is "broken" is proof enough that they got stronger and are stronger than some of the other new codexes. I hold in my mind however that Guard are a top tier codex when played right and I think that Wolves are good but nothing broken or OP.



I went from 6 vehicles to 11 now with the same amount of guys. My opponents just can't kill all of that armor.

The book isn't broken, however in direct comparison to the other Codex's released for the edition AFTER Games Workshop made the whole "Less is More" speech about simplifying armies strengths the book is pushed to the absolute limit.

They basically reverted right back to 3rd edition with the book. Lots of options, war gear, units, special rules, orders etc

The other armies didn't get anything close to the choices that Imperial Guard. The Space Wolf book is right on par in power of the Imperial Guard book.

This of course can be blamed on the authors, since Gav Thorpe and some others are no longer in the Codex writing department but it's still a little ridiculous.

I wish I had the options the guard have with my Chaos book. Don't get me wrong the Chaos book is very competitive however anyone can read that book and easily pick up on the "I win with this list". The Chaos book can produce like 1-2 solid list types that can compete with the other dominant tournament armies such as "Nidzilla", "Eldar Bike Council" etc

It's just a total lack of options that sucks.

Lord Solar Plexus
15-10-2009, 10:15
Oh dear, broxus, I'm afraid you have lost all semblance of perspective. IG will defeat SW without breaking a sweat. Grey Hunters at 21 points? Madness, I say! A single battlecannon will wipe them, krak grenades and higher ini notwithstanding.



some Vendetta wont win you the game troops will.


Nothing could be farther from the truth. Hit the guy who told you this lie. Troops do not really matter per se, except for holding 2 - 3 objectives, or of course when they themselves are actually good. Mobility + troops + superior firepower will win you games (although you can substitute firepower with cc punch).

Having said that, IG troops are well worth it, Mech metagame my ***.

Vaktathi
15-10-2009, 11:17
Why do you need to use veterans for Vostroyans? I don't understand.

Carapace armor. That was their defining trait under the previous book and they are very heavily armored if you look at their mini's.

Xelloss
15-10-2009, 11:25
:eek:You mean the cake is a lie!?
I just found a credo for my sisters : "You will be baked, and then there will be cake !"


Infantry is the backbone of any conventional army. Doesn't mean they can run up and falcon punch tanks with their bare hands.
My BT would argue about that :p


Exceptions, of course, are the 3rd Edition Codices. This, however, is not what you call "Codex Creep." This problem is "Edition Creep,"
That what I wanted to say in my previous post, but you formulated it better.

Second point : what people call "codex creep" is more poor balance management : some units become(/stay) useless or almost useless, while others become insanely good (either by game-breaking abilities or by undercost). The problem is when you can fill an army only with such units, where what should have been "rule of cool" become cheese. We are experiencing "rule of cool creep", where each new codices try to be cooler than the precedent. That's not a bad thing by itself, but the apparent lack of playtesting make it as we know it now. (Playtesting should be "let's try to be the dumbest we can and see if the system can keep up", not "let's put two beginners on a game table and see if they can have fun with units that do not work particularly well together")

Marrak
15-10-2009, 11:29
Ok wow... if I'm reading some people right in this thread they're complaining about codex creep from the previous edition of said codex? :wtf:

Guys c'mon, let's think about that one for just a second... some of the 3rd edition codexes are basically unplayable right now, and you want the new versions to be put on par to what they were? That's kind of unfair to the army in question, don't ya think?

We're all going to get our little moment in the spotlight, so let's just relax and as was said, we'll all look back at the supposed "broken stuff" in a year or two and simply smile.

Frankly, the last few codexes have been done properly IMO. Too much oversimplification was killing the game due to a severe lack of diversity with lists; there were very few if not 1-2 lists alone that would be considered viable in tournament play; right now the IG and SM especially have a variety of builds that may vary in effectiveness but still hold themselves to a competitve level (haven't looked at the SW book to judge it). Frankly, I like knowing I could play two SM players and have a totally different game. Something that, with my Tyranids, I really can't do if I want any decent chance of victory.

Vaktathi
15-10-2009, 12:12
Frankly, I like knowing I could play two SM players and have a totally different game. Dear god how I wish this were true.

Unfortunately, all I see is Vulkan, Vulkan, Vulkan, Vulkan, Vulkan, Shrike, Vulkan, Vulkan, Vulkan, Vulkan, Vulkan, Biker Captain, Vulkan, Vulkan, Vulkan, Vulkan, Vulkan.

IJW
15-10-2009, 12:15
While all I see is Biker Captain, Khan, DA, DA, DA.

Nobody in our club has fielded Vulkan, as far as I can remember.

Vaktathi
15-10-2009, 12:20
Oh how I wish my area were like that. Since probably about March (about as far back as I can remember) between the local area here, the larger Portland Metro, and my time back in SD over the summer, of all the SM armies I've played (this could differ for others, but just going off what I've played against), all but *two* used Vulkan. More often than not in Ultramarines blue :cries: rather than in an actual Salamanders army.

shabbadoo
15-10-2009, 12:35
But saying that Guard Infantry are overpriced/underequipped is like saying that grotz are overpriced/underequipped. It makes *no sense* to make that kind of comparison, because you have to look at the army as a synergistic whole.

No you don't. You also need to consider the Special Orders that Guard squads can make use of. Only they have that, and it definitely makes them worth their now even lower cost which includes a Veteran Sergeant upgrade too.

Guardsmen are not bad at all. They just aren't really good, but like Gretchin you can get a lot of them.

Meriwether
15-10-2009, 13:33
Well, that's part of what I mean by looking at the army as a whole. Looking at "a guard trooper costs X points and has Y stats and Z gear", in isolation of everything else in the army, is not useful. It's even less useful to do a point-by-point comparison with a space wolf.

Meri

Cynisperer
15-10-2009, 14:06
I take your overpriced bull **** and give you 150 shots from my concripts.
I will also give you a withering hail of bolter fire from heavy weapon teams.
I will also sniper your monsterous creatures with my special weapons squads, then give them an order that makes them go to ground. =P

freddieyu
15-10-2009, 14:29
Guys, Im not saying they didnt get cheaper I think they got much better with the new codex but I am saying that they were just that bad before. In the previous IG codex's you where really at a 35-40% disadvantage right from the start.

An all or mostly infantry list really isnt that competitive with IG, if your not mech heavy you wont very competitive. IG was orginally based on this concept with vehicles to support. It has somehow forced us to make vehicle armies with limited infantry support it. Its a role-reversal. The sad part what really got me into this game was the whole idea of that IG trooper on the line could be anyone of us he is just the guy next door fighting for a cause. I want the power to lie in the human spirit not solely in the tanks we have. Thinks of Starship Troopers the movie and the mobile infantry.

You are mistaken there...the 4th ed IG dex was not bad at all, much better than the 3rd ed dex...it was just that builds were limited there (drop troop being the popular build, I loved that list), but it WAS competitive in the hands of a player who knew how to use it. The big difference with the 5th ed codex is that really with all the cool and efficient choices it became much more "noob" friendly, and in the hands of a veteran absolutely deadly.

If you look at a lot of current lists, troop choices still play a major factor in the composition. The hard boyz "leafblower" list featured a mechanised platoon as a key component. Many lists are still infantry heavy, and the fact that there a lot of vehicles now is because the chimera is much easier to purchase due to it's cheapness as well as that most infantry units can get it. Thus, while it is true that the proportion of vehicles has increased versus infantry, the grunts still play a key factor especially in 5th ed, when you need them to hold and capture objectives. In fact, you probably have noticed the popularity of 3, 4, or even 5 squad "blob" squads which many an IG general swear by. Hardly a case of relying solely on tanks to win, eh?

Continue to experiment with the IG list. There are definitely many looks and builds with this fantastic edition of the IG codex.

freddieyu
15-10-2009, 14:32
Oh how I wish my area were like that. Since probably about March (about as far back as I can remember) between the local area here, the larger Portland Metro, and my time back in SD over the summer, of all the SM armies I've played (this could differ for others, but just going off what I've played against), all but *two* used Vulkan. More often than not in Ultramarines blue :cries: rather than in an actual Salamanders army.

That's sad. In my area we see all kinds of SM armies. Only 1 or 2 guys play vulkan. That's not the only viable build in the SM dex you know....

Vaktathi
15-10-2009, 14:38
That's sad. In my area we see all kinds of SM armies. Only 1 or 2 guys play vulkan. That's not the only viable build in the SM dex you know....

I know that, but I'm not the Marine player. That said, Vulkan melta-spam is pretty much a default choice as flamers got a huge boost in 5th with being able to stack templates, meltas are far more popular than they used to be and more important with increased mechanization and harder to kill vehicles, TH/SS termi's got a huge boost, and Vulkan enhances all of these elements even further in addition to being a hard as nails character for a mere 30pts over a roughly similar generic HQ, making him a no-brainer option.

IJW
15-10-2009, 14:43
He's definitely a very 'points efficient' model.

explorator
15-10-2009, 15:11
Besides, you Omaha gamers never seem to be the lot for complaining about a Codex. Unless your main gaming local is Dragon's Lair...which if it is, I can suggest some better places for you to play at :p

Ach, unmasked! Yeah, Dragons Lair is a second home, and I am quite comfortable there. :)


Ok wow... if I'm reading some people right in this thread they're complaining about codex creep from the previous edition of said codex? :wtf:

The OP was comparing IG and SW troops, both of which qualify as 5th ed. codex(es?) (codi?). The discussion has branched out into codex creep vs. edition creep, but no one was really knocking any 4th ed books vs. 5th ed.

Xelloss
15-10-2009, 15:54
Dear god how I wish this were true.

Unfortunately, all I see is Vulkan, Vulkan, Vulkan, Vulkan, Vulkan, Shrike, Vulkan, Vulkan, Vulkan, Vulkan, Vulkan, Biker Captain, Vulkan, Vulkan, Vulkan, Vulkan, Vulkan.

It's funny because one of my friends (that introduced me to WH40K back in the 3rd ed) dropped his salamander army because he didn't want to play Vulkan...
I wonder how much old salamander players stopped to play this army, and what is the proportion of players that started with the 5th codex...

starlight
15-10-2009, 22:47
Been playing Legio Phoenix Templars (pre-Second Founding Salamander Successors) since the beginning of 3rd Ed, haven't fielded them in some time... :(

Vaktathi
15-10-2009, 22:53
It's funny because one of my friends (that introduced me to WH40K back in the 3rd ed) dropped his salamander army because he didn't want to play Vulkan...
I wonder how much old salamander players stopped to play this army, and what is the proportion of players that started with the 5th codex...

Only one of the Vulkan players I've met actually played salamanders before the current book that I know of for sure, and I've seen vulkan in Ultramarines armies more than in an actual salamanders army.:( I've only actually played against one actual Salamanders army that was well painted and modeled. Other than that he's used just because he's such a no-brainer.

Dexter099
16-10-2009, 00:21
Alright, first thing's first... Much like the cake, codex creep is a lie. People compare a current codex like Space Wolves to one like Necron or Inquisition and guess what? Yeah, there's a power gain! But wait, let's retrace our steps a bit... One was written for the current 5th Edition rule set and takes into the account the focus of said current rules, whilst the others are from two editions back, they're designed for said edition, and in their time they were actually quite potent.

While it's true that Necrons are outdated because of the Edition creep, codex creep is still there, even if it is almost entirely non-existant compared to fantasy.

Actually, I wouldn't say that Fantasy really had codex creep, it was more like three poorly written and playtested army books in a row that became the top three armies to play, and didn't even come out in the order of power. Luckily Warriors, Lizards, and now Skaven will help fix that.

freddieyu
16-10-2009, 02:02
Actually, I wouldn't say that Fantasy really had codex creep, it was more like three poorly written and playtested army books in a row that became the top three armies to play, and didn't even come out in the order of power. Luckily Warriors, Lizards, and now Skaven will help fix that.

Unless they fix these 3 codexes (VC, DOC, DE) the problem will still remain in WHFB.....GW should have the guts to admit they made some errors and make a FAQ to remedy the situation....

Creeping Dementia
16-10-2009, 03:36
First off I haven't even really noticed much Codex creep in 40k. Initially it seemed like it, mainly with orks, but once tactics and army lists changed a bit in the meta-game (like people actually realizing the value of flamers and volume fire against all armies) things really balanced out. The same thing will happen with Wolves, I'll have a tough time about the first 3 games against them, then I'll figure them out and it'll be barely different from fighting other marines. I'm not sure that Fantasy suffers from creep either, like Dexter099 said it's just that three books destroyed the system, creating a 3 tier power structure (the Overpowered Trinity, the recently updated and balanced ones (LM, HE etc), and the underclassed-need-updating-armies like ogres and TK).

As far as IG, just from my personal perspective. I play Tau and Sisters. My best friend is a Guard player, and for about a year straight I went undefeated against him and all the other Guard players I fought (did draw a couple times). It really got to the point where I never had to worry about Guard in tourneys and such. New book comes out, suddenly I have things to be concerned with, so all the tactics I have to use against SM, Eldar, Orks, etc, have to be used to secure wins, along with a bit of luck. Draws are much more common against IG, and games against them are almost always a grind (in a good way).

I say GW did well with IG balance and power wise. They're deffinately competitive when under good leadership, and they can also be complete crap when someone doesn't know what they're doing, which is my deffinition of a good army.

Purge the Heretic
16-10-2009, 04:07
Pie plates...WON conscripts, all sorts of nifty tricks, valkeries, orders...you got creeped alright.

freddieyu
16-10-2009, 04:42
Pie plates...WON conscripts, all sorts of nifty tricks, valkeries, orders...you got creeped alright.

In the right direction....as creeping dementia has mentioned, how well the army does also depends on player skill....

Vaktathi
16-10-2009, 04:50
Pie plates...WON conscripts, all sorts of nifty tricks, valkeries, orders...you got creeped alright.

WON conscripts is really not creep. For the cost, you might as well simply buy another 2 conscript squads since you need to pay 70pts for WON for the unit and you need to buy Chenkov, I've yet to see anyone who found this a viable option. The pie plates IG already had.

Juggalo
16-10-2009, 06:12
WON conscripts do suck. However, the only pie plates were side-AV12 LRs, Demolishers, and Basilisks. Now there are PBSs, Colossi, Manticores, MRPs, Griffons, demo charges or even the Medusa.

IG didn't get passed over with Codex Creep at all, when looking at the SW codex. Yes, some things are flawed/overpriced/stupid, but SWs have their own share of that. I know I rather face Wolves than IG. The only issue with the IG codex is that it is very expensive, considering how many vehicles it has. Then again, the vehicles were the main draw for me, so it works out alright.

Bassik
16-10-2009, 06:32
I went for an infantry list, and doing very well actually. They are lousy at capturing objectives, and killpoint missions I might as well give up on turn one, but annihilation missions... oh boy, nothing beats rolling claws full of dice!

Loki73
16-10-2009, 07:10
No wonder they call this place Whineseer.

Fenrir
16-10-2009, 09:29
No wonder they call this place Whineseer.

Tell me about it. Come in full of enjoyment for the game, and leave under a right downer.

Juggalo
16-10-2009, 13:56
I went for an infantry list, and doing very well actually. They are lousy at capturing objectives, and killpoint missions I might as well give up on turn one, but annihilation missions... oh boy, nothing beats rolling claws full of dice!
Hah, so true about 5th edition. It's either go mechanized, or be prepared to lose 2/3s of your games. :P I hope 6th edition doesn't revert back to vehicles being death traps as in 3rd.

Bestial Fury
16-10-2009, 15:00
No wonder they call this place Whineseer.

Yes, Panties and "mangear" do not mix, it cause things to get jumbled up and twisted, making one wince and tear up in...whine.

Malkov
16-10-2009, 16:29
WON Conscripts are great in apoc, just like Deathstrikes.

3x 50 'scripts cost min 990 points because you have to buy thier platoons, and then you need at least 239 models to field it.

freddieyu
16-10-2009, 17:20
Hah, so true about 5th edition. It's either go mechanized, or be prepared to lose 2/3s of your games. :P I hope 6th edition doesn't revert back to vehicles being death traps as in 3rd.

If this happens, IG has the advantage as naturally gunlines will be more effective, and you know as well as I which army can do this the best.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
16-10-2009, 17:53
After buying and reading the new SW codex all I can say is that I feel very cheated as an IG player. I cant belive how cheap the standard troops are, its just insane. I would like to compare a SW to a normal IG guardsman and tell me if you think all that it for 10pts you really get a steal. Remember that a guardsman is suppose to be the backbone of the IG army with armor to support it and should be a very good option for the price.

SW Bonuses:

Krak grenades
+1 WS
+1 STR
+1 INIT
+1 Toughness
+2 Armor Save
+1 Leadership
+1 BS
+2 AP for weapon
A bolter and Pistol/CC weapon
Free Special Weapons even a plasmagun at 10 models (and cheaper to upgrades to other ones)
Acute Senses
Counter Attack
And They Shall Know No Fear

Now the way I figure it is that if each upgrade costs only 1 point then each GW should cost about 21 pts to compare to the guardsmen. Im not saying that a guardsmen should rock or anything but WTF I think its almost a crime how over costed they are compared to any SM or espeically a SW. And please dont say orders even close to make up for it with very short range, using low leadership, and requring a second unit to make it work. Where is the army wide rule for IG?? Why didnt Vox's come free, grenade launchers for free, or even krak grenades.


How did army creep pass the IG codex so badly? I know that there are a few great options in the codex but some Vendetta wont win you the game troops will. The IG codex was an upgrade from the previous one but it was the worst one out there and lets face it most of us played it for fun and a challange to win with because it wasnt competitive at all.

I know some of you will say you cant judge the army in a vacuum but I will tell you that the basic infantry model in any army should be the backbone/baseline for any list or codex to diverge from. True the armor of the IG is very good but it is very expensive and if you want to flood the field with it then you have to take squadrons which has severe drawbacks. (why didnt they just give us more slots like they did for the SW HQ).

An all or mostly infantry list really isnt that competitive with IG, if your not mech heavy you wont very competitive. A troop heavy list should be competitive in ANY army list or codex!!
Anyways what do you guys think did the IG miss the Codex Creep boat?

Because the entire Imperial Guard Codex is infantry. It's not like we get any incredibly awesome tanks tanks, cheap transports or gunship skimmers or anything, just bog standard guardsmen with flashlights.

Seriously, comparing one codex troops choice against another as a way to indicate that an entire codex is underpowered is a powerful logical failure. You could just as easily bust out a Leman Russ Demolisher squadron, mathammer them against Devastators, and say that the Imperial Guard Codex is overpowered.

Dexter099
17-10-2009, 05:02
No wonder they call this place Whineseer.

I survive the quirks by looking at the perks.

vladsimpaler
17-10-2009, 05:15
The IG are powerful but what they really lost was the soul of the army.

So in a sense, "Interesting army creep" passed them over.

The new codex is what made me quit and sell off all my stuff for some actually interesting stuff. :rolleyes:

Juggalo
17-10-2009, 05:32
What "soul" are you talking about exactly? A bunch of grunts with heavy weapons? That is still there, except cheaper and more effective with orders (and honestly, the only thing keeping them from being OMG awesome is that all their weapon options should be 5 points cheaper). And now more of the tools available to the Imperial Guard can be fielded, like Imperial Psykers, gunships, and a wide variety of artillery. Almost all IG players in my experience are tread-heads, and love the new codex.

Zingbaby
17-10-2009, 05:35
Do any of you guys actually play games of 40k? ...to the OP specifically - IG is WAY 'creap'ier than the new SW codex.

Sitting around reading rules, and freaking out is so incredibly lame... get out and play and you'll surely see that the newest IG codex can build the hardest armies in the game right now.

vladsimpaler
17-10-2009, 05:59
What "soul" are you talking about exactly? A bunch of grunts with heavy weapons? That is still there, except cheaper and more effective with orders (and honestly, the only thing keeping them from being OMG awesome is that all their weapon options should be 5 points cheaper).

The stuff that you know, makes an army interesting. The Imperial Guard used to be a super interesting organization, now it's not. Doctrines ring a bell? Yes some were ridiculous, but in terms of background, they were super fun and awesome.

Like I said, the Imperial Guard are powerful, yes, but lacking in color.


And now more of the tools available to the Imperial Guard can be fielded, like Imperial Psykers, gunships, and a wide variety of artillery. Almost all IG players in my experience are tread-heads, and love the new codex.
And what about the people who don't like mechanised? They're in a tough spot.

To be fair, pretty much all the stuff the Imperial Guard have in this codex should have been in all subsequent codices. You're making it sound more amazing than it really is, though the inclusion of the Valkyrie was cool. Psykers were always there.

Prospero
17-10-2009, 06:04
I can't tell if this thread is serious or not.

Juggalo
17-10-2009, 07:37
The stuff that you know, makes an army interesting. The Imperial Guard used to be a super interesting organization, now it's not. Doctrines ring a bell? Yes some were ridiculous, but in terms of background, they were super fun and awesome.

Like I said, the Imperial Guard are powerful, yes, but lacking in color.

And what about the people who don't like mechanised? They're in a tough spot.
Maybe, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the Imperial Guard. Every army except Daemons, Necrons and Tyranids has to play more mechanized than before. Two-thirds of the scenarios necessitate mobility, so having transports is essential. No one is forcing you to spam chimelta vets, you can make effective hybrid lists with platoon squads, but you can't just plop down your guys, roll a lot of dice, and call it a day.


To be fair, pretty much all the stuff the Imperial Guard have in this codex should have been in all subsequent codices. You're making it sound more amazing than it really is, though the inclusion of the Valkyrie was cool. Psykers were always there.
You mean they should all have been in previous codices? Yeah, probably, but they weren't. Now they are. We have a lot more options for Russ and Hound variants, artillery, and yes, the Valkyrie, which is the best vehicle kit I've seen from them in a long while.

That said, doctrines were fun.

Reflex
17-10-2009, 08:09
I can't tell if this thread is serious or not.

qft...

seriously, are we comparing oranges and apples again? i thought we concluded that apples are better but where is banana?

T_55
17-10-2009, 08:17
That said, doctrines were fun.

I miss doctrines....

Bassik
17-10-2009, 09:21
Ah, Doctrines, those things you used to make guard a bit more competetive. Sharpshooters was a must.
But they didn't lose any flavor when the doctrines went. Ask the Chaos Legion players how poorly shafted you got, boohoo.

Badger[Fr]
17-10-2009, 10:13
And what about the people who don't like mechanised? They're in a tough spot.
No they're not. Infantry squads aren't the be-all and end-all of 40k, but a 30-man combined squad, once issued the right orders, is still very efficient. Pure foot-slogging armies don't work, but hybrid builds can still be competitive. Even sub-par units such as Ogryns or Storm Troopers may have a role to play in a competitive army if you use them well and design your list accordingly.


No one is forcing you to spam chimelta vets, you can make effective hybrid lists with platoon squads, but you can't just plop down your guys, roll a lot of dice, and call it a day.

Indeed. The WAAC lists have never been known for their variety, after all.



That said, doctrines were fun.
Fun, but useless. Overpriced Guardsmen with overpriced upgrades were hardly playable in the previous Edition. I'd rather have useful Psykers, Ogryns, Penal Legionaries, and plenty of tank variants, than a few, ill-designed Doctrines.

Awilla the Hun
17-10-2009, 14:13
I liked doctrines a lot. But now that I can get my Napoleonic goodness from "Front Rank! Fire!" orders (which are, I must grudgingly admit, more useful than Close Order Drill), I must concede that I'm not missing them as much as I thought.

Anyway, I really don't think that we have been passed over by any "power creep". That Space Wolf cannot benefit from orders, and is probably going to be led into battle by a ludicrously over upgraded Wolf Guard, whose close combat abilities are going to be mostly irrelevant against the Imperial Guard (if a close combat character, even simply with bolt pistol and power weapon, gets into the fray, it dishes out hurt in large amounts), which means that they can get gunned down all the more.

In addition, we have more firepower. We have cheaper firepower. We have a wider variety of tanks and field guns. We, most importantly, have more list options. We can do mech vets (and many people are.) We can do gun lines pretty effectively, provided the Commissars can keep the platoons in check, and the counter assault units are ready. We can do airborne armies, semi mechanised armies, heavy tank armies, artillery armies, human wave armies, cavalry armies (but not as much as I'd like), and even assault armies! We can overpower the enemy in a wide variety of different ways, most involving the application of lots of rockets, lasguns, shells, and occasional bayonet points. Hooray!

Killgore
17-10-2009, 14:48
My flatmate complained last night that I had to much armour in my 1.5k list,

I had a LR Demolisher,1 LR Battletank, 1 Chimera, 1 Banewolf and a Vendetta

I thought i was going easy :P

freddieyu
17-10-2009, 14:50
;4046414']No they're not. Infantry squads aren't the be-all and end-all of 40k, but a 30-man combined squad, once issued the right orders, is still very efficient. Pure foot-slogging armies don't work, but hybrid builds can still be competitive. Even sub-par units such as Ogryns or Storm Troopers may have a role to play in a competitive army if you use them well and design your list accordingly.


Indeed. The WAAC lists have never been known for their variety, after all.


Fun, but useless. Overpriced Guardsmen with overpriced upgrades were hardly playable in the previous Edition. I'd rather have useful Psykers, Ogryns, Penal Legionaries, and plenty of tank variants, than a few, ill-designed Doctrines.

the problem with the doctrines were that of all them only few made for competitive play, in particular free ones such as drop troops and close order drill. Thus builds in fghting lists were not so varied.

I miss them, but I love this one more, although to be honest playing it has been less challenging. I won a lot with 4th Ed guard and no one accused me of being cheesy. With this dex now you hear others cry cheese, even when you are not, just because you field ig. No complaints it's about ******* time the ig got respect.

Vaktathi
17-10-2009, 15:22
My flatmate complained last night that I had to much armour in my 1.5k list,

I had a LR Demolisher,1 LR Battletank, 1 Chimera, 1 Banewolf and a Vendetta

I thought i was going easy :P

That is incredibly easy.

I'd probably have 11 AV12+ vehicles in 1500pts.

lowrider
17-10-2009, 20:16
i think the IG codex is probably as close to a "perfect" codex as we are going to see, nearly every unit is usefull (none are just filler to give the list some substance) and there is not just 1 all powerful build but a whole load of competitive builds depending on your personal style, you dont have to take loads of tanks or loads of infantry its fine to mix and match and there is no set formula for success with the army unlike some armys. The army performs well at all points values and is still competitive even when restricted by points unlike marines who really strugle to field a competitive army at low points in my experience. every unit in the army list has a similar unit that does the same job but in a different way so depending on the situation there is a unit that can cope with it and all the units complement each other nicely.

Badger[Fr]
17-10-2009, 20:53
i think the IG codex is probably as close to a "perfect" codex as we are going to see, nearly every unit is usefull (none are just filler to give the list some substance)
I don't agree on this one. The Ork Codex is almost perfect, but the IG has plenty of grossly overpriced units, be it Special Characters, Ogryns, Storm Troopers, or Leman Russ variants. A few competitive builds don't make a book perfect, and many design decisions in the IG book simply do not make sense (such as the overpriced wargear and doctrines or ridiculously expensive tanks).

EmperorEternalXIX
17-10-2009, 20:57
After buying and reading the new SW codex all I can say is that I feel very cheated as an IG player. I cant belive how cheap the standard troops are, its just insane. I would like to compare a SW to a normal IG guardsman and tell me if you think all that it for 10pts you really get a steal. Remember that a guardsman is suppose to be the backbone of the IG army with armor to support it and should be a very good option for the price.

SW Bonuses:

Krak grenades
+1 WS
+1 STR
+1 INIT
+1 Toughness
+2 Armor Save
+1 Leadership
+1 BS
+2 AP for weapon
A bolter and Pistol/CC weapon
Free Special Weapons even a plasmagun at 10 models (and cheaper to upgrades to other ones)
Acute Senses
Counter Attack
And They Shall Know No Fear

Now the way I figure it is that if each upgrade costs only 1 point then each GW should cost about 21 pts to compare to the guardsmen. Im not saying that a guardsmen should rock or anything but WTF I think its almost a crime how over costed they are compared to any SM or espeically a SW. And please dont say orders even close to make up for it with very short range, using low leadership, and requring a second unit to make it work. Where is the army wide rule for IG?? Why didnt Vox's come free, grenade launchers for free, or even krak grenades.


How did army creep pass the IG codex so badly? I know that there are a few great options in the codex but some Vendetta wont win you the game troops will. The IG codex was an upgrade from the previous one but it was the worst one out there and lets face it most of us played it for fun and a challange to win with because it wasnt competitive at all.

I know some of you will say you cant judge the army in a vacuum but I will tell you that the basic infantry model in any army should be the backbone/baseline for any list or codex to diverge from. True the armor of the IG is very good but it is very expensive and if you want to flood the field with it then you have to take squadrons which has severe drawbacks. (why didnt they just give us more slots like they did for the SW HQ).

An all or mostly infantry list really isnt that competitive with IG, if your not mech heavy you wont very competitive. A troop heavy list should be competitive in ANY army list or codex!!
Anyways what do you guys think did the IG miss the Codex Creep boat? ... AHhahahahahahahAHAHahahahAHAhahahHAhaha ahhahahahahWHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAhahahhehwgahahha hahahhehahahhhaheheheeehehehehehehhhHEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEhahahhehhahhehahehhahhahahahhrhahrhhahrhahaha hhahahhahahahrhhrhhhehehahhehahahahhehhahhahahhhhA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHwhwhahhahaha hah **falls out of chair** WAHAHAGHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAHHHHAHAHHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHHHA

First of all a big tournament in Sweden or somewhere similar was recently won by an IG player who fielded almost nothing infantry platoon squads in Chimeras, so I had to laugh hysterically.

This post is a complete joke.

Bunnahabhain
17-10-2009, 21:03
Exactly, Badger.

The core of the Army is about right- Infantry platoons, command squads, veterans, chimeras, and many of the tanks and artillery are sensibley priced, so you have multiple builds that are reasonably good.
This covers alot of the dross in there like Ogryns. The tendency of Guard players to forgive many of the shortcoming due to them being an order of magnitude smaller than the last codex doesn't help either...

Badger[Fr]
17-10-2009, 21:16
This covers alot of the dross in there like Ogryns. The tendency of Guard players to forgive many of the shortcoming due to them being an order of magnitude smaller than the last codex doesn't help either...
Though, to be fair, there are very few horrible units. Ogryns and Storm Troopers are overpriced, but they are hardly unplayable compared to, say, Chaos Spawns, and they still fill a useful niche in the army. The only ireedemable choices in my opinion are the Punisher (it's just pointless), Priests (far too situational to ever be useful), and the poor Nork (the most useless special character EVER). Lord Commissars, Engineseers, Conscripts, and Heavy Weapon squads are mediocre, but somehow still have a purpose.

Bunnahabhain
17-10-2009, 21:19
And Kamir, who everyone blanks out from their mind. 40 pts, to make the unit worse? In an incredibly competitive FOC slot?

TheOneWithNoName
17-10-2009, 21:27
Sharpshooters was a must.

No, it wasn't.

Juggalo
17-10-2009, 21:44
That is incredibly easy.

I'd probably have 11 AV12+ vehicles in 1500pts.
I have 14 at 2000, but 11 at 1500? I'm impressed. What does this list look like?

Oh, and Badger, it's funny that you mentioned the Enginseer. When games start reaching the 2000+ mark, I find I have so many vehicles running around that he becomes a worthwhile investment. Plus, I've had all those S8 power fists come in handy.

Badger[Fr]
17-10-2009, 21:51
I have 14 at 2000, but 11 at 1500? I'm impressed. What does this list look like?
Mechanized Platoons, Griffons, Hydras, and Vendettas I suppose. My 1500 points army features 7 Av12+ vehicles (including two Leman Russes) and almost one hundred models, but I could easily fit 4 additional Chimeras if I dropped two Infantry squads and my Penal Legionaries.



And Kamir, who everyone blanks out from their mind. 40 pts, to make the unit worse? In an incredibly competitive FOC slot?
If you consider his Furious Charge ability doesn't work on Hunting Lances, indeed. Though, as far as I'm concerned, I favour the most logical interpretation in terms of gameplay, and fortunately, so do my opponents.

broxus
17-10-2009, 22:11
And yet you argue that an alternative *one* build is not powerful enough.

If you feel that infantry squads are that terrible, then what would *you* have done with them if you had written their rules?

read my previous post in this thread, I did this.

broxus
17-10-2009, 22:24
... AHhahahahahahahAHAHahahahAHAhahahHAhaha ahhahahahahWHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAhahahhehwgahahha hahahhehahahhhaheheheeehehehehehehhhHEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEhahahhehhahhehahehhahhahahahhrhahrhhahrhahaha hhahahhahahahrhhrhhhehehahhehahahahhehhahhahahhhhA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHwhwhahhahaha hah **falls out of chair** WAHAHAGHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAHHHHAHAHHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHHHA

First of all a big tournament in Sweden or somewhere similar was recently won by an IG player who fielded almost nothing infantry platoon squads in Chimeras, so I had to laugh hysterically.

This post is a complete joke.

wow one guy wins a few games and thats the end of the debate, well said sir. I will say this if you really think an all IG gunline is competitive try to see if you can win with it. Tell me how those KP's and underwhelming and overcosted firepower treats you. You may get lucky our outplay someone but it wont be due to the list.

IG pay more for the same weapon upgrade as a SW and they have a worse BS and as in my post far worse stats but hey if you think that the infantry isnt over priced compared to any other infantry in the game then please pass the bottle, I would like to have some of what your drinking. Its sad that the transport can out gun and out survive the squad it protects and is actually only 5pts more.

The only real competitive lists IG can build now are mech and that just sucks, many of us started playing this game and army because of that lone human trooper on the battlefield. We could relate to him and wanted to see ourselves succeed, in this codex it just isnt possible. IG are the worst infantry in the game (as they should be) but also have a high pts cost still. They could have fixed this easily if they had done some army or infantry special rule that most other armies get. Orders are to watered down to really bridge that gap on the points. My plan to make them better would have been:

1) Vox for free to each squad (allows unlmited range for orders if officer squad has one)
2) Grenade Lancher for free
3) Autocannon for free
4) Can use officers leadership for orders inside of the current orders bubble 12" for CC and 6" for PC.

Keep the current points cost and then they would be fluffy and be much closer to being worth the points, even then special weapons should be reduced to be about 3-5 points cheaper on all of them.

blackroyal
18-10-2009, 00:05
That would have made them far too good. Those weapons need to cost SOME points.

broxus
18-10-2009, 00:35
That would have made them far too good. Those weapons need to cost SOME points.

You mean compared to the free Vet Sergeant upgrade, combat tactics, frag and krak grenades, bolt pistol, free flame thrower, and missile launcher the SM's got this edition and they only went up one point and SW's remained the same. Lets not get greedy and forget all the other infantry buffs in all the 5th edition codex's to make them more viable.

With the upgrades I recommended they still would be overcosted to what the normal infantry trooper would cost in any army. I mean lets even compare them to a simple orc and see what kind of power you get from that army its sick all for one point more. I think with what I proposed they would still be over costed compaired to any other codex troop choice in 5th Edition but it would least be fluffy and be closer to the cost/pt ratio that everyone else seems to enjoy in this edition.

SW Bonuses similar to the SM bonuses over the IG (not that its wrong but proves we are over costed or SM/SW are undercosted):

Krak grenades
+1 WS
+1 STR
+1 INIT
+1 Toughness
+2 Armor Save
+1 Leadership
+1 BS
+2 AP for weapon
A bolter and Pistol/CC weapon
Free Special Weapons even a plasmagun at 10 models (and cheaper to upgrades to other ones)
Acute Senses
Counter Attack
And They Shall Know No Fear

Simply put with my recommendation the IG infantry would still suck as they should but not be so overcosted also. It would be nice not to feel forced to field a mech list to be competitive.

Vaktathi
18-10-2009, 00:47
I have 14 at 2000, but 11 at 1500? I'm impressed. What does this list look like? Actually I just realized, I could get in 12.

HQ (1 tank)
CCS w/Officer of Fleet, 2x melta, with chimera

Troops (6 tanks total, 3 in each platoon)
2x platoons, PCS w/4GL & chimera +2 IS AC/GL with chimera

Fast Attack (3 vehicles)
2x Vendetta
1x Armored Sentinel

HS (2 vehicles)
2x LRBT w/triple HB.

12 total :p

My 2000pt list looks pretty much exactly like the above, but with 2 flamers in the CCS, 2 extra infantry squads, 1 more vendetta, 1 more LRBT, and no Sentinel, for 15 AV12 & 14 vehicles :D

Meriwether
18-10-2009, 01:07
Nice list! My Dark Eldar would have a field day with those vehicles, and then get eaten for lunch by all the pew-pew-pew from the infantry.

:D

Meri

Vaktathi
18-10-2009, 01:16
Actually what I've found against DE is that, the big tanks are worthless, but chimeras are worth their weight in gold. They cost as much as a raider, but are better armored and a ML/HB is more potent against raiders than a single dark lance is back (dark lance has 1/3 chance to pen, as does multilaser back at the AV10, but mutlilaser has 3 shots and the HB can pen them too) and is still solid anti-infantry. I don't think I've found a better counter to DE than chimeraspam :p

Zingbaby
18-10-2009, 02:09
Well Marbo and Shraken are the 'creep'iest characters in the game right now, hands down. Especially when you consider their point cost.

I just played my first game against Space Wolves today... granted it was just one game, but 'Jaws of the World' killed a whopping 1 marine. And I spanked them otherwise.

I play against IG at least once a week and those damned bastards Marbo and Shraken can take down easily triple their points worth every game... and usually more.

freddieyu
18-10-2009, 02:20
The only real competitive lists IG can build now are mech and that just sucks, many of us started playing this game and army because of that lone human trooper on the battlefield. We could relate to him and wanted to see ourselves succeed, in this codex it just isnt possible. IG are the worst infantry in the game (as they should be) but also have a high pts cost still. They could have fixed this easily if they had done some army or infantry special rule that most other armies get. Orders are to watered down to really bridge that gap on the points.

If you mean playing pure mech being the only build, then no that's not true, as hybrid lists do also very well. If you mean playing with a mech component, this is true for all armies that can get transports, because 5th ed forced everyone to be mobile with troops in order to claim objectives.

If the missions were still similar to 4th ed, gunlines can still work, especially with the orders and the fact you can get infantry blobs with commissars (which many an IG general swears by). Unfortunately this is not the case, so we mount up.

The IG infantry are not THAT bad cmon. They are still useful for holding your side of the table and shooting guys on the other side of the table as well screening all your valuable artillery pieces, while your assault force vroom vrooms to destroy then claim the enemy held objectives.

Bunnahabhain
18-10-2009, 02:31
Well Marbo and Shraken are the 'creep'iest characters in the game right now, hands down. Especially when you consider their point cost.


Come on, they're no worse than Vulkan...

blake
18-10-2009, 02:36
There is nothing right now that compares to Marbo, he's easily hands down the best character in the game for coming in and killing his points back and more.

This thread is a complete joke, the IG are possibly the most well rounded and at the same time powerful codices out right now, a close second would be Orks. Space Marines have a "couple" of builds and honestly Space Wolfs are a good marine variant but they cannot bring to the table half the variety that a smart IG general could.

Vaktathi
18-10-2009, 02:40
There is nothing right now that compares to Marbo, he's easily hands down the best character in the game for coming in and killing his points back and more. He's really a democharge delivery system more than anything.


and honestly Space Wolfs are a good marine variant but they cannot bring to the table half the variety that a smart IG general could.A good point regarding the problems with having so many disparate marine codex's. If other armies can encompass so much variety in a single list, why can't SM's?

freddieyu
18-10-2009, 02:43
marketing strategy for the GW poster boys, of course...

sturguard
18-10-2009, 02:59
That is incredibly easy.

I'd probably have 11 AV12+ vehicles in 1500pts.

And you are complaining about Vulcan? I think IG armies with Chim and Veteran Spam are about as common place as seeing Vulcan in a SM army, even moreso, at least from what I saw at the Indy GT in Raleigh last weekend. Guess who won the tourney, and I'll give you a hint, it wasn't a SM army being led by Vulcan.

Zingbaby
18-10-2009, 03:18
I also couldn't disagree more regarding IG mech being the only good build.

One of the BEST armies I've seen is an all infantry Catachan with, none other than, Marbo and Shraken. Add some commissars and priests etc... When you consider the amount of power weapons you can actually add to this army, and the re-rolls, and the ridiculous orders, and counter charge and the insane special characters... not to mention that typical IG fashioned butt-load of shots. They will mow through anything.

Zingbaby
18-10-2009, 03:22
There is nothing right now that compares to Marbo, he's easily hands down the best character in the game for coming in and killing his points back and more.

This thread is a complete joke, the IG are possibly the most well rounded and at the same time powerful codices out right now, a close second would be Orks. Space Marines have a "couple" of builds and honestly Space Wolfs are a good marine variant but they cannot bring to the table half the variety that a smart IG general could.

I totally agree... though I will put them ahead of Orks once folks really get a handle on using them. I've seen the IG army (from my previous post) make Orks look silly.

Meriwether
18-10-2009, 03:47
And yet, Orks can be downright brutal with a good general (who isn't a net-list-spam-clone-without-a-clue). Which sort of proves the point of those disagreeing with the OP...

Meri

Vaktathi
18-10-2009, 07:28
And you are complaining about Vulcan? I think IG armies with Chim and Veteran Spam are about as common place as seeing Vulcan in a SM army, even moreso, at least from what I saw at the Indy GT in Raleigh last weekend. Guess who won the tourney, and I'll give you a hint, it wasn't a SM army being led by Vulcan.Were there any vets in that list I posted? No.

Also, those are basic Troops options, the core of the army. those are what should be strong in a codex and should be seen often. I really don't see why loading up on effective units that are designed to be the bulk and core of ones army is an issue.

My problem with Vulkan is that he's a no-brainer HQ option that makes taking a regular captain or chapter master relatively pointless as he's more killy than an equivalently kitted HQ and makes some of the most important weapons in an SM army even better, for what, 20 or 30pts more than an equivalenently kitted captain or chapter master?

BaronIveagh
18-10-2009, 08:02
... my theory, and so far this works out, is that Infantry are there to HOLD the position, tanks are there to TAKE the position that the infantry then HOLDS, and artillery + close air support are both there to make hamburger out of the other guys.

So far this plan seems to work pretty well when playing IG, and I see no reason to believe that it's under or over powered.

twistinthunder
18-10-2009, 08:25
i didnt think sw had ATSKNF

IJW
18-10-2009, 09:42
wow one guy wins a few games and thats the end of the debate, well said sir.
Wow one guy loses a few games and thats the end of the debate, well said sir. :angel:

Murphy's law
18-10-2009, 09:53
WON conscripts do suck. However, the only pie plates were side-AV12 LRs, Demolishers, and Basilisks. Now there are PBSs, Colossi, Manticores, MRPs, Griffons, demo charges or even the Medusa.

IG didn't get passed over with Codex Creep at all, when looking at the SW codex. Yes, some things are flawed/overpriced/stupid, but SWs have their own share of that. I know I rather face Wolves than IG. The only issue with the IG codex is that it is very expensive, considering how many vehicles it has. Then again, the vehicles were the main draw for me, so it works out alright.


No wonder they call this place Whineseer.

And it's getting worse every day.
Would be happy if a lot(all) of those whiners leave the hobby today.

Murphy's law
18-10-2009, 09:55
Were there any vets in that list I posted? No.

Also, those are basic Troops options, the core of the army. those are what should be strong in a codex and should be seen often. I really don't see why loading up on effective units that are designed to be the bulk and core of ones army is an issue.

My problem with Vulkan is that he's a no-brainer HQ option that makes taking a regular captain or chapter master relatively pointless as he's more killy than an equivalently kitted HQ and makes some of the most important weapons in an SM army even better, for what, 20 or 30pts more than an equivalenently kitted captain or chapter master?

Same goes for creed.
Loading up on effective veterans is ok to you, taking an effective character like Vulkan isn't? Double standard?
The amount of veteran-chimera-melta-flamer-vendetta-spam is ridiculous, but it's valuable, just like Vulkan.
People pay for their army's and are entitled to play the army's the way they want. If you don't like that, don't play them.

Vaktathi
18-10-2009, 10:05
Same goes for creed.
Loading up on effective veterans is ok to you, taking an effective character like Vulkan isn't? Double standard?
The amount of veteran-chimera-melta-flamer-vendetta-spam is ridiculous, but it's valuable, just like Vulkan.
People pay for their army's and are entitled to play the army's the way they want. If you don't like that, don't play them.

Vets aren't a no-brainer option however, mechanized platoons can play just as well and footslogging platoons have their place too. With Vulkan, he's an SC that is supposed to represent a specific chapters background but is taken in the colors of just about every chapter under the sun, and makes the basic Captain/Chapter Master redundant, and gives a huge army wide bonus for an extremely negligable cost increase over such basic HQ's, and is still even more killy to boot. Vet's aren't the automatic no-brainer option that makes alternatives relatively pointless and aren't really tied to a specific background either.

And yes, before someone brings up the point, I know GW has expanded the role and availability of SC's, but seeing Vulkan in Ultramarines colors is just...awkward/wrong on a certain level.

Creed also really isn't that amazing, especially if running a mechanized army. I've yet to see him in an army in person. He's a good choice for a ground pounding army no doubt, but for his cost you could get a second CCS which would serve just as well and still afford to kit out both CCS's.


Finally, I never said anything about not playing people because of whats in their list, so kindly *step off* that. I just noted that as a result of Vulkan's abilities, I *do* see him in almost every list, and it gets extremely boring facing variations of the same list over and over.

Ravenheart
18-10-2009, 11:16
So, we have a thread on complaining how insanely broken the IG is and one on how damn weak the IG is; at the same time! Something is not quite right here! :chrome:

explorator
18-10-2009, 13:01
Would be happy if a lot(all) of those whiners leave the hobby today.

Know what would make me happy? No more Double-Posts! Use the edit function.

And honestly, about half of all gamers (and nerds in general) are whiners. If all the whiners left, I doubt GW could survive. So, if that would male you happy, so be it.

Zingbaby
18-10-2009, 15:10
Know what would make me happy? No more Double-Posts! Use the edit function.

And honestly, about half of all gamers (and nerds in general) are whiners. If all the whiners left, I doubt GW could survive. So, if that would male you happy, so be it.

Well if half of the whiners would just STHU and actually play a good 20 games or so before freaking out, we might not have these obnoxious threads that spam the forum every single day. GW might also be better off, because more folks would be playing (and thusly buying more crap).

I'm sorry, but there is nothing lamer than just 'reading' the rules and total panicking. Get out and play... likely your opinions will change real fast.

My only experience so far against Space Wolves, had the "jaws of the world" claim a whopping 1 marine. Granted that was just one game, and it will be many games later before I can properly pass judgment, but I'm certainly not going to 'freak out', especially without first taking up the challenge over several games.

My experience so far against IG, which is mostly a weekly occurrence is that IG have the BEST codex in the game right now. I just saw them win a local tournament yesterday and more and more IG players are beginning to dominate around here. --- To the OP: get out and play some games.

Murphy's law
18-10-2009, 16:18
Vets aren't a no-brainer option however, mechanized platoons can play just as well and footslogging platoons have their place too. With Vulkan, he's an SC that is supposed to represent a specific chapters background but is taken in the colors of just about every chapter under the sun, and makes the basic Captain/Chapter Master redundant, and gives a huge army wide bonus for an extremely negligable cost increase over such basic HQ's, and is still even more killy to boot. Vet's aren't the automatic no-brainer option that makes alternatives relatively pointless and aren't really tied to a specific background either.

And yes, before someone brings up the point, I know GW has expanded the role and availability of SC's, but seeing Vulkan in Ultramarines colors is just...awkward/wrong on a certain level.

Creed also really isn't that amazing, especially if running a mechanized army. I've yet to see him in an army in person. He's a good choice for a ground pounding army no doubt, but for his cost you could get a second CCS which would serve just as well and still afford to kit out both CCS's.


Finally, I never said anything about not playing people because of whats in their list, so kindly *step off* that. I just noted that as a result of Vulkan's abilities, I *do* see him in almost every list, and it gets extremely boring facing variations of the same list over and over.

Creed IS amazing, except for mechanised builds and does things no second commandsquad could do. "for Cadia", one unit(or vehicle squadron) outflanking...that's impressive.

I see no difference between taking Creed, Marbo, Straken, Yarrick or whoever in any kind of army they don't belong to or taking vulkan in an Ultramarines army. To me that's the same thing.
It's not fluffy to see Vulkan in every army...but it ain't fluffy either if every 9 out of 10 imperial guard army consists out of Creed/Al rahem/Marbo/..., pure mechanised-veteran-melta-builds.

The game just doesn't reflect the background that much and most people just want to build what works for them. The world isn't a perfect place.

I can understand you don't like facing Vulkan every week, but then again, same goes for alll those boring mech-melta builds.

Personally i've never ever faced one vulkan-marine army before, but i really can't believe it's the end of times if you face a marine army which get's re-rolls.
I see IG veteran builds all the time and they are the imperial guard best troop choice, no matter what you think(you propably know they are)I've played IG for a long while and i was really excited when veterans became troops.
But now i wish it would not have happenend. '

However, since i can't influence GW's choices i'll just face those army's and try to destroy them as any other armybuild and try to have a good time.

Things like that just happen, don't let it ruin your hobby.

Murphy's law
18-10-2009, 16:20
Know what would make me happy? No more Double-Posts! Use the edit function.


And honestly, about half of all gamers (and nerds in general) are whiners. If all the whiners left, I doubt GW could survive. So, if that would male you happy, so be it.

Jawohl! I'll do it from know on.

I don't think half of all gamers are whiners. Just the people who spend more time posting on warseer then actually playing games.

BaronIveagh
18-10-2009, 16:38
Ah... CREEEEEEEEED! How tactical Genius lets a Imperator Titan outflank is beyond me.... they aren't exactly stealthy...

Grand Master Raziel
18-10-2009, 16:47
Vets aren't a no-brainer option however, mechanized platoons can play just as well and footslogging platoons have their place too.

You'll have to do a better job selling that to get me to buy it. Mech-Vets have obvious utility, and so do footslogging platoons. Mech Platoons, on the other hand, seem like they're an awkward hybrid of the two. I'll put PCSes in Chimeras in my Radical Daemonhunters list, because I can't take Inducted Vets and because you can load the PCSes up with 4 special weapons, and I could see putting Heavy Weapon Squads in Chimeras and having them shoot out, but regular Infantry Squads in Chimeras just seems like a waste of good Infantry Squads and Chimeras.

Badger[Fr]
18-10-2009, 16:55
Creed IS amazing, except for mechanised builds and does things no second commandsquad could do. "for Cadia", one unit(or vehicle squadron) outflanking...that's impressive.
It is indeed impressive, but Creed is hardly cheap compared to the bog-stand Company Commander, whereas Vulkan is only a mere 25 points upgrade of the optimal SM Captain build. Hence why he is a no-brainer: there's no reason to take a Vanilla Captain instead of Vulkan.


I see IG veteran builds all the time and they are the imperial guard best troop choice, no matter what you think(you propably know they are)I've played IG for a long while and i was really excited when veterans became troops.
Many competitive players favour Mechanized Platoons over Veterans, because the additional Heavy Weapons and Chimeras they provide do make a hell of a difference.

Yodhrin
18-10-2009, 18:02
The only thing I dislike about the new codex/edition is how much more effective it is to use Chimeras as bunkers rather than AFVs. I feel like my men should be piling out and holding the objective, not cowering inside their transport occasionally having the heavy weapons guy pop out the hatch to shoot and ducking back inside :(

Juggalo
18-10-2009, 20:32
I see IG veteran builds all the time and they are the imperial guard best troop choice, no matter what you think(you propably know they are)I've played IG for a long while and i was really excited when veterans became troops.
But now i wish it would not have happenend. '

Veterans are good, but they aren't very much superior to line squads, mainly due to the larger numbers of chimeras you can field with platoon squads.

Despite all the fuss about them, chimelta spam isn't that effective. There were tons of those lists at 'Ard Boyz, and none of them made it even close to the final round. The overall winning list had 2 squads, and then maxed out on artillery/chimeras.

The best armies I've seen used a combination of both.

Two bare vet squads cost 140 points, have BS4, krak grenades, and can take 6 special weapons, 2 heavy weapons, and 2 chimera. 20 men, 2 scoring units. A minimum platoon is 130 points, can take 6 special weapons, 2 heavy weapons, and 3 chimera. 25 men, 3 scoring units. They don't have BS4 and krak grenades, but they can cover more area, have an officer for situationally useful orders, engage more enemies, and have the option to be tooled up as blob CC squads, leaving the chimeras to disposable demo charge SW teams.

I've keep a couple of very successful lists using combat blob squads backed up by Straken (who is way better than Creed, AND can buff allies), screened by a wall of chimeras filled with SW teams or PCSs (who are a great cheaper alternative to vet squads), and backed up by artillery and Russes.

That said, it is true that the regular squad is just filler (a scoring unit with an autocannon filler, but still filler) in order to buy more chimeras. The cost savings in the platoon come from the command squad and SW teams. If I could redo the platoon squad, they would cost 50 as now, but get a free vox, flamers/GLs/heavy bolters would be free, autocannons/meltas/plasmas would cost +5, MLs+10, lascannon +15. Vet squads would stay as is, except plasmas would be +10.

Vaktathi
18-10-2009, 22:03
Creed IS amazing, except for mechanised builds and does things no second commandsquad could do. "for Cadia", one unit(or vehicle squadron) outflanking...that's impressive. But again, isn't a no-brainer option and taking two CCS's can give you mostly the same flexibility and more special weapons, and is useful mostly in a list that is heavy on non-mechanized troops. He has a very limited scope.



I see no difference between taking Creed, Marbo, Straken, Yarrick or whoever in any kind of army they don't belong to or taking vulkan in an Ultramarines army. To me that's the same thing. I agree, although Marbo at least can make sense in that he is assigned almost everywhere, he isn't part of a specific regiment.



It's not fluffy to see Vulkan in every army...but it ain't fluffy either if every 9 out of 10 imperial guard army consists out of Creed/Al rahem/Marbo/..., pure mechanised-veteran-melta-builds. I've seen Marbo exactly once. I've never seen Creed or Al'Rahem, and I see Platoon based armies at least as often as Vets ones, and of my two IG armies, my Platoon army is by far the cheesier one.



I can understand you don't like facing Vulkan every week, but then again, same goes for alll those boring mech-melta builds. Sure, but I don't see Chimeltavets as ubiquitous as Vulkan. It's gotten to the point where I just automatically take into account SM's having TL flamers/meltas and MC thunderhammers when list building and facing opponents. Chimeltavets however I see maybe one in every 3 IG armies. Of my 2 IG armies they only appear in one, and even then it's only 3 units and then 3 units of AC/3GL vets.

They don't have the same issues as Vulkan because they aren't the no-brainer option that makes others redundant. They aren't far and away better than platoons and can't offer the same options.




Personally i've never ever faced one vulkan-marine army before, but i really can't believe it's the end of times if you face a marine army which get's re-rolls. It's not, but it gets old and he's really ridiculously cheap for what he does when they are packing almost 20 flamer/melta weapons (and basically reducing their chance to miss to 33% of what it was previously, or basically 1 in 9) plus TH/SS termis that get to reroll a TH miss. He makes taking the normal Captain absolutely pointless.

Take Vulkan, he's got a 3+invul, 2+ armor, a heavy flamer (TL'd of course), a Master Crafted Relic blade with digital weapons, and his TL/MC ability and is 190pts.
Take a normal captain, relic blade, artificer armor, stormshield, combiflamer, and digital weapons and is...195pts with no TL/MC ability, a worse flamer weapon, and no reroll for the Relic Blade. Oh, actually he can't even take the combi-flamer either if he wants the relic blade and SS so dump that, make him 185pts with no flamer weapon at all.

That's what makes Vulkan dumb, and even moreso than I thought before.



I see IG veteran builds all the time and they are the imperial guard best troop choice, no matter what you think(you propably know they are)I've played IG for a long while and i was really excited when veterans became troops.
But now i wish it would not have happenend. They aren't the best troop choice though, that's the thing. Platoons can serve just as well. Vets aren't a no-brainer option and aren't making Platoon lists any less viable. Vets are a great unit, but platoons can offer a lot too.



Things like that just happen, don't let it ruin your hobby.I never said it did.

AngryAngel
18-10-2009, 22:16
I hear what your saying Vaktathi. It's a shame when lists become the same across the board all the time. I also agree about Creed, I take him and Kell in like every list no matter how small, and alot of the times his orders are a bit wasted if I don't have a large footslogging force. For the points you need to pay to upgrade to them I don't think its near a no brainer choice.

EmperorEternalXIX
19-10-2009, 07:25
It is indeed impressive, but Creed is hardly cheap compared to the bog-stand Company Commander, whereas Vulkan is only a mere 25 points upgrade of the optimal SM Captain build. Hence why he is a no-brainer: there's no reason to take a Vanilla Captain instead of Vulkan. There is no reason to take any of those characters except Vulkan. The wild inconsistencies of chapter tactics make my stomach turn. What an awfully set up army. I bet dumbass Matt Ward made Vulkan the way he is to help lessen inexistent problems like las-plas builds to avoid whining like 4th ed had.


Many competitive players favour Mechanized Platoons over Veterans, because the additional Heavy Weapons and Chimeras they provide do make a hell of a difference. This sort of thing is really the joke of this whole thread. I know it is not an argument for or against the codex, but look at the logistics...you have options between the best armed troops squad in the game, or a number of mechanized troops no other army can even remotely match.

When I told my club about this thread all of them including the Guard fans laughed hysterically and thought the OP was some kind of joke.

Today one of my club members, a guard player, came to me a little upset with himself that he dismantled a nice guy's Templars so handily. "He was so nice but I just killed him so bad," he said. He runs the now-standard Guard list, it looks like every other guard list -- a vendetta, 3 leman russes of varying flavors, a buttload of Chimeras for a platoon and a buttload of chimeras full of heavily-armed veterans. The other guy got demolished, and he is a highly accomplished player. The game was also kill points -- the guard's "weakest" mission type.

Bottom line to my story is this: People with "weak" codices don't feel guilty over the caliber of their victories. As I talked to my club member, this nice guy who has just always loved the Guard and their tanks, I asked him some questions as I explained to him that the sheer number of options for his squads' actions will always massively outweigh other armies. I asked him some fun questions... "When was the last time even half of your tanks died in a game?"

His answer was "Last week." When he fought the only army in the game capable of sustaining as much casualties as his own -- another Imperial Guard army.

Another friend threw in, "Fighting anyone but the guard, when was the last time?"

He couldn't recall.

I think asked, "When was the last time you lost more than half from just your chimeras?"

He couldn't recall.

I'm sure people will chime in with "Well I guess you and your club must suck then." This board never believes me when I say otherwise, so I'll just put it to you like this: what are the odds that an entire club sucks?

We have some very fearsome players, and my guard friend himself is a good player as well. The fact that the only time he ever had a tough game that he could recall was against another Guard player is proof positive. He's even thinking about starting a new army, and looking at armies reputed to be less popular (like Chaos) probably simply because he doesn't like to win so easily all the time.

Now don't get me wrong, he doesn't win all the time. But when the other guy wins, it's because he either made a catastrophic mistake or because of a technical scrape (like one remaining model from a scoring unit getting a lucky dangerous terrain roll and run roll and making it to an objective by the skin of his teeth).

When your shooting phase is 3x as long as your opponents, your codex isn't underpowered...

Vaktathi
19-10-2009, 07:54
When your shooting phase is 3x as long as your opponents, your codex isn't underpowered...

I'm not saying IG are underpowered, but if the shooting phase is all you've got and your infantry are all T3 5+sv dudes, that shooting phase better damn well be a hell of a lot stronger than your opponents. IG have always been intended to be the pre-eminent shooting army, their CC phase is dominated mainly by digging their own graves.

Badger[Fr]
19-10-2009, 09:14
I'd like to see what kind of army lists and terrain set-up people use where you play, EmperorEternalXIX, because, as far as I'm concerned, the IG, while being obviously stronger than the average SM army (there is no denying Matt Ward is a hack), is hardly dominating the game in my area. Usually, my tanks end up being destroyed by deep-strikers, outflankers, or first-turn charges. I have seldom played a game where the whole enemy army was destroyed before reaching the IG lines.

elite_dannux
19-10-2009, 09:25
Ah... CREEEEEEEEED! How tactical Genius lets a Imperator Titan outflank is beyond me.... they aren't exactly stealthy...

Thats because Creed is a tactical genious and you are not ;)

Murphy's law
19-10-2009, 09:48
But again, isn't a no-brainer option and taking two CCS's can give you mostly the same flexibility and more special weapons, and is useful mostly in a list that is heavy on non-mechanized troops. He has a very limited scope.

I agree, although Marbo at least can make sense in that he is assigned almost everywhere, he isn't part of a specific regiment.

I've seen Marbo exactly once. I've never seen Creed or Al'Rahem, and I see Platoon based armies at least as often as Vets ones, and of my two IG armies, my Platoon army is by far the cheesier one.

Sure, but I don't see Chimeltavets as ubiquitous as Vulkan. It's gotten to the point where I just automatically take into account SM's having TL flamers/meltas and MC thunderhammers when list building and facing opponents. Chimeltavets however I see maybe one in every 3 IG armies. Of my 2 IG armies they only appear in one, and even then it's only 3 units and then 3 units of AC/3GL vets.

They don't have the same issues as Vulkan because they aren't the no-brainer option that makes others redundant. They aren't far and away better than platoons and can't offer the same options.


It's not, but it gets old and he's really ridiculously cheap for what he does when they are packing almost 20 flamer/melta weapons (and basically reducing their chance to miss to 33% of what it was previously, or basically 1 in 9) plus TH/SS termis that get to reroll a TH miss. He makes taking the normal Captain absolutely pointless.

Take Vulkan, he's got a 3+invul, 2+ armor, a heavy flamer (TL'd of course), a Master Crafted Relic blade with digital weapons, and his TL/MC ability and is 190pts.
Take a normal captain, relic blade, artificer armor, stormshield, combiflamer, and digital weapons and is...195pts with no TL/MC ability, a worse flamer weapon, and no reroll for the Relic Blade. Oh, actually he can't even take the combi-flamer either if he wants the relic blade and SS so dump that, make him 185pts with no flamer weapon at all.

That's what makes Vulkan dumb, and even moreso than I thought before.

They aren't the best troop choice though, that's the thing. Platoons can serve just as well. Vets aren't a no-brainer option and aren't making Platoon lists any less viable. Vets are a great unit, but platoons can offer a lot too.

I never said it did.

Well, i think we have the same problem in opposite ways. You face a lot of Vulkans, i don't, i face Creed/Marbo/Al Jazeera/mech vets with 1500 special weapons every week, you don't.

But still, to me veterans are far more superior.
Put them in a chimera,give them camocloaks, give them 3 special weapons(maybe with heavy) and start the killing.
You see that carnifex over there with extended carapace? Now he's gone. Your chimera get's wrecked? Your vets have a nice bonus coversave.

Try that with platoons.

I've played both of them. In 4th edition i played Vostroyans with a mixture of 6 platoonsquads and 2 or 3 veteran squads.
In 5th with the new codex i played the same list and recognised platoons being alot better then before because of orders and combined squads.
But veterans in their cheap chimera's proved to be so much better.

EmperorEternalXIX
19-10-2009, 10:14
;4051502']I'd like to see what kind of army lists and terrain set-up people use where you play, EmperorEternalXIX, because, as far as I'm concerned, the IG, while being obviously stronger than the average SM army, is hardly dominating the game in my area. Usually, my tanks end up being destroyed by deep-strikers, outflankers, or first-turn charges. I have seldom played a game where the whole enemy army was destroyed before reaching the IG lines. There is a very wide variety of players at my club. I run the group and have tried to create a place that is open to both new players and veterans. We have a wide array of armies and army styles, as well. Our two guard players happen to be two of the best players I have ever dealt with, generally speaking. When they clash with someone else, generally while the other person has a chance to win, the casualties are generally far more severe. Even when they aren't, the damage done back to the guard is almost always negligible compared to the damage done in return (and indeed, percentage of the opposing army neutralized, as well).

By my own estimated guesses, to neutralize 5% of an IG army takes as much effort as it does to neutralize 15-20% of your average SM list. There are simply more units that can fire, and simply more units that must be shot at. Target saturation works wonders for the guard. You bring up their crappy save and toughness, but bearing in mind that you usually have to commit roughly two units to any given mechanized unit's defeat (one to crack the chimera and one to kill the guys inside is a standard requirement), this quickly becomes utter crap.

If it were really an army full of T3 / 5+sv models, then it would be much more beatable. But it isn't. From the other side of the table, it is an army with more devastating long range weaponry than any other army in the game, who have a wall of AV12+ vehicles armed to the teeth in numbers no other codex in the game can realistically field.

While models are in a chimera with those terribly OP fire point rules, your save and toughness are completely irrelevant, and people have no right to use it as a crutch. Especially in the case of the veterans, who can fire to almost full effect in most cases from the relative safety of a moving chimera, and are BS4.

On every level, this aspect of the meta game is to the HUGE advantage of the guard. How many units do you have to kill to neutralize, say, 25% of a guard list? Assuming my friend's list from earlier, you would have to take out roughly 5 or so units and at least 3 of those units would also have had to lose their transports. What remains is still significant -- more transports and troops squads would remain on the table for my IG friend, than any of the players at my club would even field in the first place. My guard friends' mixed mechvet/mechplatoon list has more than a dozen scoring units in some of his setups, many of which are protected by a vehicle that can put out real dangerous anti-infantry fire across the map while simultaneously letting the squad inside still fire out to nearly full effect. The only ones who can even think about doing this are the SM and Dark Angels, and the SM will be unarmed and 50% of them will be without transport, while the Dark Angels will be lightly armed and still suffer from the same problem. Comparably, my guard friend fields all of those units with all of those guns...he once played a 4-way match where his 1000-point force completely outnumbered everyone else's combined.

Do you not find it to be at all advantageous that the enemy must kill twice as many units and vehicles to stop scoring units in this list, versus the fact that my friend may simultaneously use his superior numbers to surround and lay fire on any other opponent's much smaller group of scoring units?

When you factor in the rest of the list and what it does, this only gets worse and worse. We assume mathematical probability when people cite the old "but they are t3/5+ sv" bit. But mathematical probability isn't as reliable as we'd like it to be. And I know you'd like to really believe that you NEED 9 chimeras, 16 plasma guns, and 14 meltaguns along with 9 lascannons and 6 autocannons to hit like other armies...but that really isn't the case all the time, in fact almost never.

My friend's army, in some iterations, fields more lascannons than I even have units. The more units you have, the higher the odds are that you can have an abnormally great round with a particular squad. It's simple probability. In other armies, a catastrophic loss from a lucky blast template or a miraculous failure of dice rolling for saves is so much more costly and crippling that it is almost completely foolish for the guard to even roll saves.

It is a simple matter of mathematics. You say it is necessary for the guard to have all of these squads and these vehicles that pour out more bullets then most MEQ lists' fully loaded heavy support sections, because the basic statline is weak. Ultimately this is not the problem. Of course they need to be more numerous than their enemies; that is both their fluff and how their expendability mechanic works. But you are not factoring in some other things.
Namely, what I said above: the guard codex has so much on the table that you can have multiple "do-overs" for any task you fail -- and failing that, your squads can be made to be extremely good at what they need to do.


I'm not saying IG are underpowered, but if the shooting phase is all you've got and your infantry are all T3 5+sv dudes, that shooting phase better damn well be a hell of a lot stronger than your opponents.

This argument has been done to death. First of all you guys really like to leave out that almost omnipresent 4+ cover save in your deliberations of a guardsmen's worth. With a single squad of 50 point nobodies in front of your infantry line, all of a sudden you are toting what is for all intents and purposes an invulnerable save (at least until your meat shield is dead).

For another thing, the IG guys never want to talk about the rather prodigious volume of models who have BS4 in the current popular builds...

The meta game of the Guard is simply never considered. In another thread someone mocked me for not being able to shoot down the "tough" 12-armor Vendetta. But when you consider wasted high-strength shots on heavy weapons teams in cover, the fact that AT high-strength weapons must contend with a dozen or more medium-or-better armored targets, and general target priority ("I'd love to shoot the scoring unit with these lascannons but that Veteran Squad will kill my Monstrous Creature so easily that I have to fire at them first"), it makes the guard have a huge advantage. One that is tactical, not list-based. But a huge advantage nonetheless.

You can simply possibly accomplish a lot more in a game turn than any other army in the game.

And besides. Carnifexes shouldn't be running in fear from single squads of Veteran Guardsmen anyway. Don't you guys find it a little strange that there are Terminators and Demons and Giant Monsters that cower before this squad of basic guys (who are also troops, and are also scoring, and are also armed to the teeth)?

This army is obscenely good, and in the hands of even a mildly competent player such as my friend, it has decimated everything in his path. To the point where he even feels guilty about the dominance of his victories, and how easily they are obtained while the opposing player struggles from the get go.

When a person feels guilty for using their codex, well...I will just say, it's likely not a sign of being underpowered.

[Apologies for the novel I wrote...]

ORKY ARD BOYZ
19-10-2009, 10:26
...as flamers got a huge boost in 5th with being able to stack templates,

Stacking templates?

Badger[Fr]
19-10-2009, 10:42
You can simply possibly accomplish a lot more in a game turn than any other army in the game.
While this is indeed true, the IG is also one of these armies that can go wrong very fast, faster than any MEQ army. A single Flamer template can kill more than 100 points worth of Veterans in a single shot (whereas the expensive Plasma gun will at best kill two MEQ), and the current CC rules mean that, unless the IG player field an outrageously expensive Commissar, a single MEQ squad can slaughter several Infantry squads at a time. Even a lone Marine is a threat no squad nor vehicle in the army could ignore. The slow, lumbering Leman Russ, while being immune to long-range AT-weapons, still has rear Av11 at best, and is pathetically vulnerable to outflankers and deep strikers.

Once you manage to reach the IG lines, there is almost no unit that can last more than a single CC phase. A Raven Guard army is probably an IG player's worst nightmare. I've seen IG armies lose more than 600 points worth of models in a single CC phase, because the SM player pulled a first turn charge.

elite_dannux
19-10-2009, 11:18
Commissars isnt expensive for what it does. 35 points to give a 1-5 units Stubborn Ld9 and better at understanding orders.

Add some powerweapons and 20 guardsmen + commissar +powerweapons grinds a Tactical squad to dust in CC in a couple of turns.

Badger[Fr]
19-10-2009, 11:42
35 points to give a 1-5 units Stubborn Ld9 and better at understanding orders.
The Commissar is undoubtedly useful, but still expensive if you consider most units in the game are either Fearless (Ork Boyz, Chaos, Tyranids) or immune to sweeping advances (any Loyalist Space marine) by default. In terms of sheer cost efficiency, a Guardsman is no match for a 6 point Shoota Boy.



Add some powerweapons and 20 guardsmen + commissar +powerweapons grinds a Tactical squad to dust in CC in a couple of turns.
I hope they do, considering such a squad is probably more expensive than a Tactical Squad, and yet far more vulnerable (it takes only a couple of flamers to destroy the whole unit).

genestealer_baldric
19-10-2009, 11:54
Stacking templates?

Yep in a viechal you can, i know a guy who got 90 somthing wounds on a squad of marines with burner boyz in a looted wagon.

Fenrir
19-10-2009, 12:13
;4051654']
Once you manage to reach the IG lines

If they have a line, and aren't all sitting in tanks driving around shooting.

Vaktathi
19-10-2009, 12:43
But still, to me veterans are far more superior.
Put them in a chimera,give them camocloaks, give them 3 special weapons(maybe with heavy) and start the killing. Why bother with camo cloaks? save the points for more guns. :p

Yes the are very good units, but without the camo cloaks that unit still costs as much as a Leman Russ, it's not *that* cheap and the infantry die quickly if you kill the transport. And if they aren't in a transport, they shouldn't last past turn 2.



You see that carnifex over there with extended carapace? Now he's gone. Your chimera get's wrecked? Your vets have a nice bonus coversave.

Try that with platoons.
With my platoons I can have a mobile special weapons unit with 4 special weapons (albeit at BS3, but still very cheap) and then have two fire support units sitting in the back in their chimeras (the IS's) shooting away from within. The PCS goes around with a hull heavy flamer and special weapons to counter stuff that gets close or deep strikes, while the IS's sit there and blaze away at anything they see from almost anywhere on the board.




This argument has been done to death. First of all you guys really like to leave out that almost omnipresent 4+ cover save in your deliberations of a guardsmen's worth. It's not there all the time, and still, T3 Ld7/8 with WS3/BS3/S3/I3/A1 isn't exactly a stellar statline


With a single squad of 50 point nobodies in front of your infantry line, all of a sudden you are toting what is for all intents and purposes an invulnerable save (at least until your meat shield is dead). And those are also our scoring units, and such a meatshield is exceedingly easy to remove.



For another thing, the IG guys never want to talk about the rather prodigious volume of models who have BS4 in the current popular builds... Vets and CCS's. Still pretty much 3's across the board other than BS. Oh, and the very mediocre (at best) Stormtroopers that cost more than CSMs/SMs/SWs/etc.




The meta game of the Guard is simply never considered. True, but I think that is also partially that Guard were so terrible for so long that people got used to it and didn't think about it and are only now starting to wake up to it. Guard used to be very looked down upon, a couple summers ago I was playing against an Eldar player (this was still 4E with a ridiculous skimmerspam list) and beat him. He was very upset, not that he lost, but that he had lost to *Imperial Guard*. This mindset is still in place with many players I'm afraid and they are unprepared to face the new Imperial Guard army when the time comes.

It also doesn't help that people often play against nothing but Space Marines, so when they come across something that isn't Space Marines, not even a weird sort of approximation (like Eldar can be) they just don't know what to do. I see the same thing with green tide Orks, people just don't even consider how to deal with that, it doesn't occur to them.


But when you consider wasted high-strength shots on heavy weapons teams in cover that have become less useful and far more vulnerable to high S weaponry and can't be taken outside the Platoon structure anymore.


the fact that AT high-strength weapons must contend with a dozen or more medium-or-better armored targets, and general target priority ("I'd love to shoot the scoring unit with these lascannons but that Veteran Squad will kill my Monstrous Creature so easily that I have to fire at them first"), it makes the guard have a huge advantage. One that is tactical, not list-based. But a huge advantage nonetheless. Put 2 wounds on an HW squad and you've just forced and Ld7 morale test and removed a gun, they aren't that hard to get out of there. Sure, I see what you are saying, but then again, most of these units evaporate fairly quickly even in cover, and you don't need to wipe them out to deal with them.




You can simply possibly accomplish a lot more in a game turn than any other army in the game. More shooting yes. But that's to be expected of *the* WH40k shooting army. IG assault phases are nonexistent, and often movement as well depending on the army list. IG can also go bad much faster than other armies like Space Marines. If a couple key units flub their shots hardcore, the IG have a much harder time recovering from this than the likes of SM's, Orks and Eldar.




And besides. Carnifexes shouldn't be running in fear from single squads of Veteran Guardsmen anyway. If the Carnifex is in rapid fire distance, the vast majority of the time it will survive, and then something messily, or shoot their transport and then eat the guys alive.


Don't you guys find it a little strange that there are Terminators and Demons and Giant Monsters that cower before this squad of basic guys (who are also troops, and are also scoring, and are also armed to the teeth)? They also generally cower at 30 strong Ork mobz with a powerklaw and a ridiculous number of attacks. The two cost about the same. Vets, from a fluff sense, also aren't basic dudes, they are elite troops that are more experienced and better equipped than normal troops, although not so much so that they would be on par with the likes of Stormtroopers and such.



This army is obscenely good, and in the hands of even a mildly competent player such as my friend, it has decimated everything in his path. To the point where he even feels guilty about the dominance of his victories, and how easily they are obtained while the opposing player struggles from the get go. I won't deny it's good, it's very powerful and even I was surprised at some of the victories I won in the beginning, but time and again I see people making the same mistakes. They neglect to make multiple assaults, they play too defensively and don't get stuck in, they try compete in a shooting war (I see this a lot, especially with SM armies that have so much more capabilities), they forget they've got krak grenades on everything, they don't surround the chimeras to prevent disembark, they won't utilize fire ports in rhino's to melta drive-by my tanks, they'll disembark right in front of the gunline, etc...

People basically forget the biggest rules against IG that still stand, Get Stuck In and Don't try to outshoot the Imperial Guard.


The army I think I've had the hardest time with using the new IG was a friends mech sisters played extremely aggressively. Exorcists terminate Vendettas, sisters start running around in transports putting meltaguns into every tank they can, dumping flamers on units that disembark, etc.

Murphy's law
19-10-2009, 12:50
;4051774']The Commissar is undoubtedly useful, but still expensive if you consider most units in the game are either Fearless (Ork Boyz, Chaos, Tyranids) or immune to sweeping advances (any Loyalist Space marine) by default. In terms of sheer cost efficiency, a Guardsman is no match for a 6 point Shoota Boy.


I hope they do, considering such a squad is probably more expensive than a Tactical Squad, and yet far more vulnerable (it takes only a couple of flamers to destroy the whole unit).

You don't want your guardsmen to be fearless, stubborn is a 10 times better.
fearless guardsmen would die like flies thanx to the no retreat rule.

My hormagaunts are fearless, when in synpase range, that's correct... but i hate it.
They are pretty bad troops as they are, fast yes, but they hit like a paper bag and there is a big chance they lose combat. Saving aditional wounds on a 6+ isn't sweet and a 5+ for guardsmen wouldn't be much better.

And you can't compare a guardsmen to an Ork. They have both very diffferent roles. Your guardsmen have very nice tanks who can do major damage to any army, orks don't.

@Vaktathi, i don't think veterans are elite troops. They have survived more battles and have their speciality's, but the real elites are Stormtroopers(from a fluff perspective ofcourse).
If you think veterans are elites troops then i think it supports my argument and they should be treated that way. Most IG army's shouldn't be all-mech-vets. Or they should lose their BS4.(except for snipers, but no-one uses them on veterans anyway)

Asmodia
19-10-2009, 13:11
A lot of people are confusing "mainstay" and "backbone" with "best units in the army."

Infantry is the backbone of any conventional army. Doesn't mean they can run up and falcon punch tanks with their bare hands.

My Infantry Squads have taken out Falcons in Close Combat. :)

Vaktathi
19-10-2009, 13:20
@Vaktathi, i don't think veterans are elite troops. They have survived more battles and have their speciality's, but the real elites are Stormtroopers(from a fluff perspective ofcourse).
If you think veterans are elites troops then i think it supports my argument and they should be treated that way. Most IG army's shouldn't be all-mech-vets. Or they should lose their BS4.(except for snipers, but no-one uses them on veterans anyway)They have been portrayed in two different ways. First as the hardened core of the survivors of deadly campaigns, these can represent the most experienced troops in a regiment or extremely experienced regiments like the Tanith Ghosts. Second, they can be used to portray armies like the Vostroyan First Born and the like, where the troops are equipped and trained to a higher standard than normal guardsmen (who are themselves usually equipped and trained to a higher standard than the PDF). This would be like for planets where their manpower may be low, so they compensate their tithes with better troops and more equipment.

They aren't elite like special forces such as Stormtroopers, but I guess a good analogy (as much as I hate to do this) would be to look at WW2, well mid-late WW2. Vets would be like German Panzergrenadiers or Fallschirmjaeger or US Airborne after 1944, not special forces, but definitely an elite of a sort but still being line infantry, while normal Guardsmen would be more like the US forces in 1943 being decently trained and equipped but lacking the experience and extensive training, while Conscripts/PDF would be more akin to the Red Army in 1941.

Murphy's law
19-10-2009, 13:35
They have been portrayed in two different ways. First as the hardened core of the survivors of deadly campaigns, these can represent the most experienced troops in a regiment or extremely experienced regiments like the Tanith Ghosts. Second, they can be used to portray armies like the Vostroyan First Born and the like, where the troops are equipped and trained to a higher standard than normal guardsmen (who are themselves usually equipped and trained to a higher standard than the PDF). This would be like for planets where their manpower may be low, so they compensate their tithes with better troops and more equipment.

They aren't elite like special forces such as Stormtroopers, but I guess a good analogy (as much as I hate to do this) would be to look at WW2, well mid-late WW2. Vets would be like German Panzergrenadiers or Fallschirmjaeger or US Airborne after 1944, not special forces, but definitely an elite of a sort but still being line infantry, while normal Guardsmen would be more like the US forces in 1943 being decently trained and equipped but lacking the experience and extensive training, while Conscripts/PDF would be more akin to the Red Army in 1941.

Yes, i think that's correct. Allthough i would like to mention that Vostroyans by no means are a full veteran-style regiment because of their equipment and training. They just have more veterans in their regiments then most other army's because of their first born recruitment system rather then using conscripts.
The only difference in training is they are not using (again) conscipts and the firstborn soldiers get top notch equipment.
I can see someone playing a full veteran vostroyan army, especially if he try's to reflect the background regarding Carapace armour. But in reality it doesn't reflect the vostroyan firstborn army enough and we all now no one takes veterans BECAUSE of carapace armour.
Some people say the carapace veteran option has been made to reflect Vostroyans. I call that b#%!$hit...vostroyans got completely neglected, not even getting their own special character.

But to end my part of the discussion, i'm in no way against someone playing a full veteran army if he has some nice fluff made up for his theme.
I just don't like to see it being duplicated over and over again.
I can tell you stories about people who use camo cloak rules on vostroyan veterans...which is pathetic, which leads me to believe people are abusing the veteran option.
Like you said, it get's old fast.

Asymmetric
19-10-2009, 14:33
The only real competitive lists IG can build now are mech and that just sucks, many of us started playing this game and army because of that lone human trooper on the battlefield. We could relate to him and wanted to see ourselves succeed, in this codex it just isnt possible. IG are the worst infantry in the game (as they should be) but also have a high pts cost still. They could have fixed this easily if they had done some army or infantry special rule that most other armies get. Orders are to watered down to really bridge that gap on the points. My plan to make them better would have been:

1) Vox for free to each squad (allows unlmited range for orders if officer squad has one)
2) Grenade Lancher for free
3) Autocannon for free
4) Can use officers leadership for orders inside of the current orders bubble 12" for CC and 6" for PC.

Keep the current points cost and then they would be fluffy and be much closer to being worth the points, even then special weapons should be reduced to be about 3-5 points cheaper on all of them.

105 pts for a mechanised squad with an autocannon, grenade launcher vox and chimera.

That's just silly. Your not making an infantry build for guard more appealing, your just making the mechanised builds even stronger than they already are. The most extreme armour saturation builds do not use mechvets at all but instead rely upon cheap platoons to cram in an extra tank or two like vaktathi's list.

Veterans vs platoons are simply not a no-brainer at present for mechanised lists but are a destinct choice between effective close ranged firepower and AT vs extra AV12 hulls and long range power.

YTY
19-10-2009, 14:37
Once we played a 2v2 game, 1000 pts per player. It was my marines and my friend's IG vs some dark angels and more marines. By turn 3 my IG ally had annihilated almost the whole opposing 2000 pts with his 1000. He didn't even have very good luck, just average.

Nuff' said.

Zingbaby
19-10-2009, 16:02
I'm not saying IG are underpowered, but if the shooting phase is all you've got and your infantry are all T3 5+sv dudes, that shooting phase better damn well be a hell of a lot stronger than your opponents. IG have always been intended to be the pre-eminent shooting army, their CC phase is dominated mainly by digging their own graves.

Yeah except that your statement is completely untrue. Shraken is basically a monstrous creature and when you add the sheer amount of power weapons this army can have, with re-rolls and furious charge, and counter charge and silly orders etc... AND then add in that the shooting phase probably scrubbed the table of your opponents best CC units, AND then add that inexpensive little Marbo can wipe out, let's say a 10 man Death Company in one shot... I might agree that they are digging graves, but not their own.

Bunnahabhain
19-10-2009, 16:32
No, Stracken is not effectively an MC. He's effectively a farseer. Take the following test.
Hit him with a melta gun, krak missile, or scattering battle cannon round.... This has a good chance of killing him in 1 shot. Name me an MC you can one shot easily.
He's a very powerful character, because of his furious charge and counter attack radius, not because he can bash some vehicles in CC.

Anybody who puts 10 death company, or in fact, any high value unit, in such nice neat clump outside of having just deep struck, or in CC, deserves to lose. Doubly so against an army known for large amount of high strength large blasts...

Badger[Fr]
19-10-2009, 16:40
Shraken is basically a monstrous creature and when you add the sheer amount of power weapons this army can have, with re-rolls and furious charge, and counter charge and silly orders etc...
And then you realize the sheer amount of points needed to make an IG Close Combat army that is even remotely effective. Though, don't be foolish, your Infantry squads will still get their asses handed to them by anything better than the bog-standard Vanilla Marine, be it an Ork Boyz or a Khorne Berzerker. With the exception of Rough Riders, most IG players are usually better off maximizing their volume of fire instead of wasting points on CC upgrades.

Meriwether
19-10-2009, 16:44
That's the fun part about Shraken... He's got the killy death of an MC combined with the killability of a multiwound, low-T IC. A sweet, fun little dude they've got there.

Meri

Badger[Fr]
19-10-2009, 16:59
It's Straken, for God's sake! Not Shraken nor Stracken, Straken, dammit!

noobzilla
19-10-2009, 17:21
Once we played a 2v2 game, 1000 pts per player. It was my marines and my friend's IG vs some dark angels and more marines. By turn 3 my IG ally had annihilated almost the whole opposing 2000 pts with his 1000. He didn't even have very good luck, just average.

Nuff' said.

Your opponents have absolutely no idea how to utilize cover or any sort of tactics then.

I've been beaten under 5th 3 times so far and each one of them boiled down to tactical blunders rather than list composition (I run a mech/infantry hybrid, 11 vehicles 80 Guardsmen). I have to say that I'm impressed by the new Guard codex, but it is far from overpowered or cheesy. I will always hold in my mind that Guard have the BEST codex (I love Guard) and hearing stories where "1000 points beat 2000 points" just means your friends made huge tactical blunders, not because the Guard list is too good.

Threeshades
19-10-2009, 17:58
Your opponents have absolutely no idea how to utilize cover or any sort of tactics then.

I've been beaten under 5th 3 times so far and each one of them boiled down to tactical blunders rather than list composition (I run a mech/infantry hybrid, 11 vehicles 80 Guardsmen). I have to say that I'm impressed by the new Guard codex, but it is far from overpowered or cheesy. I will always hold in my mind that Guard have the BEST codex (I love Guard) and hearing stories where "1000 points beat 2000 points" just means your friends made huge tactical blunders, not because the Guard list is too good.

Or the guard player cheated. :angel:

Meriwether
19-10-2009, 18:06
;4052576']It's Straken, for God's sake! Not Shraken nor Stracken, Straken, dammit!

Schmackin'?

noobzilla
19-10-2009, 18:12
Or the guard player cheated. :angel:

What's the point of complaining about the codex rather than the player than?


Schmackin'?

Haha, that was great... Got a good kick out of that one.

Threeshades
19-10-2009, 19:18
What's the point of complaining about the codex rather than the player than?

Just sayin'. If you don't know the codex another player uses and never question him, he might pass with a lot of cheating while you'd think it is what the codex actually says.

Vaktathi
20-10-2009, 00:38
Yeah except that your statement is completely untrue. Shraken is basically a monstrous creature
That's *one* unit, that ends up cost as much as a CCS with a chimera and 4 meltaguns or a Leman Russ, or as much as or more than a land raider after chimera and upgrades. The rest of his unit is still T3 5+sv dudes and still uses T3 for determining wounds on the unit. He's beastly, but not a no-brainer option, Straken is very situational.


and when you add the sheer amount of power weapons this army can have, with re-rolls and furious charge, and counter charge and silly orders etc... If an IG opponent puts you in a position where all those elements work together and you find yourself threatened by guard infantry, you need a new plan. That's an extremely situational niche list that is rather easily countered and still wont defeat dedicated assault units.


AND then add that inexpensive little Marbo can wipe out, let's say a 10 man Death Company in one shot... I might agree that they are digging graves, but not their own. If Marbo has wiped out 10 death company with a single demo charge, two things have to have occured. Marbo hit dead on, and (more importantly) you have done something very very dumb and clustered all your expensive killy valuable death company in a nice neat pieplate clump, and then not rolled any "1's". If this is the case, I'm not exactly sympathetic. I usually expect 2-5 kills from an ordnance blast/demo charge (usually about 3), and Marbo to die immediately after.

Hero adamite
20-10-2009, 00:47
regular IG troops are so cheap in points i was surprised. a squad of 10 (1 seargent and 9 gaurdmen) is 50 pts? a space marine tactical squad is about 170. so 34 gaurdsmen is = to about 10 marines.

Vaktathi
20-10-2009, 01:06
regular IG troops are so cheap in points i was surprised. a squad of 10 (1 seargent and 9 gaurdmen) is 50 pts? a space marine tactical squad is about 170. so 34 gaurdsmen is = to about 10 marines.

Well that's to be expected. For 170pts you get a higher staline across the board (resulting in increased damage output and survivability), a 3+ armor save, a better gun, krak grenades, pistols, ATSKNF, Combat Squads, a flamer and missile launcher, and far more capability in general. Remember, on average two charging marines will defeat a 10man IG unit in CC.

Bestial Fury
20-10-2009, 01:49
Right....you get what you pay'fer.

Zingbaby
20-10-2009, 07:00
That's *one* unit, that ends up cost as much as a CCS with a chimera and 4 meltaguns or a Leman Russ, or as much as or more than a land raider after chimera and upgrades. The rest of his unit is still T3 5+sv dudes and still uses T3 for determining wounds on the unit. He's beastly, but not a no-brainer option, Straken is very situational.

If an IG opponent puts you in a position where all those elements work together and you find yourself threatened by guard infantry, you need a new plan. That's an extremely situational niche list that is rather easily countered and still wont defeat dedicated assault units.

If Marbo has wiped out 10 death company with a single demo charge, two things have to have occured. Marbo hit dead on, and (more importantly) you have done something very very dumb and clustered all your expensive killy valuable death company in a nice neat pieplate clump, and then not rolled any "1's". If this is the case, I'm not exactly sympathetic. I usually expect 2-5 kills from an ordnance blast/demo charge (usually about 3), and Marbo to die immediately after.

Hmmm you can't be serious. Straken is far more that situational... ANY unit within 12" has counter attack and furious charge and he can issue 2 orders a turn. Those orders are crazy - 1st rank 2nd rank and move move move etc... Not to mention that he IS a monster in combat.

And you've clearly never faced Marbo in a game. You realize how difficult it is to avoid a LARGE blast template for the whole first 3 turns of the game before Marbo arrives? Sure if you are very cautious you can avoid losing all 10 men but it's not exactly easy, if the table has terrain at some point you are going to get bunched ...and what do you mean roll '1's? ...the demo charge is AP-2 and he can start an INCH away from your unit to make sure he gets the best shot possible. He is only 65 points!

Vaktathi
20-10-2009, 07:13
Hmmm you can't be serious. Straken is far more that situational... ANY unit within 12" has counter attack and furious charge and he can issue 2 orders a turn. Those orders are crazy - 1st rank 2nd rank and move move move etc... Not to mention that he IS a monster in combat. Counter attack and furious charge on guardsmen are of...dubious value. They still remain WS3 T3 5+sv infantry that will likely lose most combats against all but the weakest of foes.

And yes, he can issue 2 orders a turn, so can a 50pt normal company command squad, and they aren't *that* crazy, especially considering they are going off only on LD7 or 8 usually.



And you've clearly never faced Marbo in a game. I have, and I've even used him a couple times.


You realize how difficult it is to avoid a LARGE blast template for the first 3 turns of the game before Marbo arrives? Avoid entirely? yes, difficult, but what does that have to do with Marbo using his *one* on the turn he arrives?


Sure if you are very cautious you can avoid losing all 10 men but it's not exactly easy, if the table has terrain at some point you are going to get bunched ... That's up to you to as the commander to make the decision. If you maneuvered your infantry to a point where they have to squeeze between terrain (making an ideal target for Marbo) because you made the decision that you don't want to take terrain tests, with the knowledge that Marbo has a huge chance of coming in, then again I'm not too sympathetic. Even a half decent spread should net no more than 5 or 6 on a solid hit and 1 will likely fail to wound, and there's only about a 50/50 chance of landing a direct hit anyway.

If you spread your units out and get them in cover, a direct hit might kill 3 if Marbo is lucky? If you've clumped them up in a position where they don't get cover saves and know that Marbo is coming in on a 3+ or 2+ or something, and just made the tastiest target imaginable for him, that's a command error.


and what do you mean roll '1's? Fail to wound.


...the demo charge is AP-2 and he can start an INCH away from your unit to make sure he gets the best shot possible. He is only 65 points!Yes, and other than that demo charge he's not going to do anything. You're basically paying 65pts for an AP2 battlecannon shot that has a 50/50 chance of landing on target and then giving up a killpoint.

He's not bad, but he's not a no-brainer option either and not the worst thing in the codex.

LKHERO
20-10-2009, 08:14
I really hope this thread's a joke.

A well built IG list destroys Marines by the dozens 1500+ points up.

Death Company
20-10-2009, 08:36
I attempted to take this thread seriously. It resulted in my head attempting to rupture off of my neck and flee.

Lord Solar Plexus
20-10-2009, 08:51
Creed IS amazing, except for mechanised builds

That's the problem: There is a single build only. The only variation is the number of Chimeras instead of Vendettas. Everyone's welcome to play that but it does put me of considerably. Oh, and I don't like to be called a whiner because of it, so don't even try.

"The world is not perfect" is a pretty lame excuse for everything and nothing.



"When was the last time even half of your tanks died in a game?"


I nearly always lose all my tanks - AV 10 simply doesn't cut it. ;)



When your shooting phase is 3x as long as your opponents, your codex isn't underpowered...

Why would it be 3x as long? Surely not after turn 2!



But still, to me veterans are far more superior.
Put them in a chimera,give them camocloaks, give them 3 special weapons(maybe with heavy) and start the killing.
You see that carnifex over there with extended carapace? Now he's gone.


Uh...how? I don't think that is even remotely possible except in a rigged scenario. You are wildly exaggerating.


Those orders are crazy - 1st rank 2nd rank and move move move etc...


Ah...what? :eek: Firing a few lasguns more is crazy?



Sure if you are very cautious you can avoid losing all 10 men but it's not exactly easy, if the table has terrain at some point you are going to get bunched ..

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. Terrain has nothing at all to do with getting bunched up. That's a myth. If your models are bunched up then it is your own fault for bunching them up.

There's no way Marbo can kill 10 Marines if the SM player doesn't want it.

Murphy's law
20-10-2009, 09:15
That's the problem: There is a single build only. The only variation is the number of Chimeras instead of Vendettas. Everyone's welcome to play that but it does put me of considerably. Oh, and I don't like to be called a whiner because of it, so don't even try.

"The world is not perfect" is a pretty lame excuse for everything and nothing.



I nearly always lose all my tanks - AV 10 simply doesn't cut it. ;)



Why would it be 3x as long? Surely not after turn 2!



Uh...how? I don't think that is even remotely possible except in a rigged scenario. You are wildly exaggerating.



Ah...what? :eek: Firing a few lasguns more is crazy?



I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. Terrain has nothing at all to do with getting bunched up. That's a myth. If your models are bunched up then it is your own fault for bunching them up.

There's no way Marbo can kill 10 Marines if the SM player doesn't want it.

I don't like the way you comment Herr Essen, i get the feeling you're calling me a liar.
Corrrect me if i'm wrong.

Veterans with plasmaguns taking orders can kill a carnifex in 1 round of shooting. It happenend to me. Granted, it was an elites carnifex with 4 wounds and tougness 6, but still, i think it's a bit ridiculous.
My second Carnifex was killed in two rounds of shooting by another plasmasquad. I've played with and against Guard long enough to know what they're capable of.

Awilla the Hun
20-10-2009, 09:31
Something that's getting passed over here: you only get the best out of orders if you give them to a large merged platoon with lots of heavy weapons stuck in it.

For example: First Rank Fire! orders can allow an infantry squad to possibly kill a Marine per turn with their lasguns at long range (and lets say they take out another with their special/ heavy weaponry, making a total of two-two!-marines shot away.) Or it can be applied to a vast merged platoon spitting close ranged volleys as it rolls forwards across the board, inflicting far more damage for the order. (I can see how this can be terrifying to a lightly armoured horde army, having given the orders myself with a big cheesy grin on my face. But, then again, rapid firing bolters will decimate that platoon. So will Devourers, Shruiken Catapaults, Splinter Rifles, anything with a blast...)

Now, merging your platoons to maximise the effectiveness of orders is all very well. However, they mean that the much talked about meta game-having lots of units-is quite impossible, because so many points are drawn into these large, expensive platoons of infantry, their Commissars, and so on. Similarly, fitting these large, merged platoons on to Chimeras is impossible to do, ruling out the Mechanised army.

Lord Solar Plexus
20-10-2009, 11:46
I don't like the way you comment Herr Essen, i get the feeling you're calling me a liar.
Corrrect me if i'm wrong.


No, I did not call you a liar and I'm sorry that I inadvertently made it sound like I was. I am aware that perceptions are extremely varied. I still feel that it is usually highly unlikely to kill a Fex in one round.



Veterans with plasmaguns taking orders can kill a carnifex in 1 round of shooting.


Veterans with plasmaguns could kill a Fex in one round of shooting with the previous codex, without orders, for less points. Tau suits can kill a Fex in one round of shooting. Eldar can, SM can, Orks can.

There is no salient reason to even mention those Vets. They do carry serious firepower but is that really special? Especially when they need more logistical effort for the orders to work.



It happenend to me. Granted, it was an elites carnifex with 4 wounds and tougness 6, but still, i think it's a bit ridiculous.
My second Carnifex was killed in two rounds of shooting by another plasmasquad. I've played with and against Guard long enough to know what they're capable of.

So IG is capable of killing Fexes. Okay, cool. I'm pretty sure Daemons or other Nids or most other armies could do precisely the same. Everyone can kill my tanks with a single shot. Why in the world should I not be able to kill Fexes with 6 shots? I'm afraid I fail to see your point.



For example: First Rank Fire! orders can allow an infantry squad to possibly kill a Marine per turn with their lasguns at long range (and lets say they take out another with their special/ heavy weaponry, making a total of two-two!-marines shot away.) Or it can be applied to a vast merged platoon spitting close ranged volleys as it rolls forwards across the board, inflicting far more damage for the order.


Since everyone (except Nids) sits in vehicles, more lasgun fire will have very little effect. Also, a platoon that "rolls forward" can usually not fire at all, so again the order is useless. Thirdly, a platoon has very little in the way of lasguns to start with. Assuming a "vast merged platoon" is a full platoon of 45 men, you're looking at a mere 30 lasguns before any losses.

Murphy's law
20-10-2009, 12:15
No, I did not call you a liar and I'm sorry that I inadvertently made it sound like I was. I am aware that perceptions are extremely varied. I still feel that it is usually highly unlikely to kill a Fex in one round.



Veterans with plasmaguns could kill a Fex in one round of shooting with the previous codex, without orders, for less points. Tau suits can kill a Fex in one round of shooting. Eldar can, SM can, Orks can.


There is no salient reason to even mention those Vets. They do carry serious firepower but is that really special? Especially when they need more logistical effort for the orders to work.



So IG is capable of killing Fexes. Okay, cool. I'm pretty sure Daemons or other Nids or most other armies could do precisely the same. Everyone can kill my tanks with a single shot. Why in the world should I not be able to kill Fexes with 6 shots? I'm afraid I fail to see your point.



Since everyone (except Nids) sits in vehicles, more lasgun fire will have very little effect. Also, a platoon that "rolls forward" can usually not fire at all, so again the order is useless. Thirdly, a platoon has very little in the way of lasguns to start with. Assuming a "vast merged platoon" is a full platoon of 45 men, you're looking at a mere 30 lasguns before any losses.

I have no problems with veterans and the job they do.
I was comparing them to ordinary platoonsquads as you can read earlier in the thread. My statement stands, they are superior to platoonsquads.
What i don't like is playing against pure veteran-lists all the time.


I see a contradiction in your post. You're questioning my statement about vets killing carnifexs in one round of shooting...while saying they could do that in the previous codex...That's a bit odd, isn't it?

Lord Solar Plexus
20-10-2009, 13:18
I have no problems with veterans and the job they do.
I was comparing them to ordinary platoonsquads as you can read earlier in the thread.


Nonsense, Murphy's law. Whatever you did and said earlier in this thread, as far as our debate is concerned you just complained about plasma Vets as being a point and click unit that kills Fexes left, right and centre.



My statement stands, they are superior to platoonsquads.
What i don't like is playing against pure veteran-lists all the time.


Yes, they are superior. Arby just did what a good author has to do.



I see a contradiction in your post. You're questioning my statement about vets killing carnifexs in one round of shooting...while saying they could do that in the previous codex...That's a bit odd, isn't it?

Without orders they will statistically cause 2.7 wounds. At times, they will cause more wounds, enough to fell the beast. They could do that before. There is no contradiction.

Gutlord Grom
20-10-2009, 14:58
I attempted to take this thread seriously. It resulted in my head attempting to rupture off of my neck and flee.

I'd sig this if I was still able to sig things.

Murphy's law
20-10-2009, 15:16
Nonsense, Murphy's law. Whatever you did and said earlier in this thread, as far as our debate is concerned you just complained about plasma Vets as being a point and click unit that kills Fexes left, right and centre.



Yes, they are superior. Arby just did what a good author has to do.



Without orders they will statistically cause 2.7 wounds. At times, they will cause more wounds, enough to fell the beast. They could do that before. There is no contradiction.

No i didn't.
I was talking about the superiority of veterans regarding platoons.
The carnifexs issue was an example. Platoons are not capable of doing the same thing. I'm not talking about a maximised platoon with 5 lascannnons and 5 plasmaguns(obviously), but i'm talking about a platoon that would cost about the same as a full equiped veteran squad.

Again, i'm comparing the 2 and i see the superiority of veteran squads, which is fine. 9 out of 10 IG builds consisting of 5/6 veteran squads isn't.
The problem isn't the IG vets. It's the people abusing them.

Enjoy your guard and consider this discussion ended.

Asymmetric
20-10-2009, 15:33
That's the problem: There is a single build only. The only variation is the number of Chimeras instead of Vendettas. Everyone's welcome to play that but it does put me of considerably. Oh, and I don't like to be called a whiner because of it, so don't even try.


Thats pretty damn wide description of a catch-all "single build".

The only theme a lot of guard builds have in common is that their mechanised.

But with the Guard codex that could mean anything.

They could be mechanised platoons or mechanised vets or a mix. One increases armour saturation and ranged power the other increases close range firepower and Anti-tank.

They could be led by a mechansied CCS or Psyker

In support they could have any amount of Battle tanks, Executioners, Exterminators, Demolishers, Banewolfs, Vendetta's, Valkyries, Devildogs, Manticores, Griffons, Mechanised Psyker choir, Hydras, Hellhounds, Colossus, Medusa or even Basilisks supporting them and as long as they build the list appropriately it can be competitive.

Zingbaby
20-10-2009, 15:52
I really hope this thread's a joke.

A well built IG list destroys Marines by the dozens 1500+ points up.

I couldn't agree more... it is ridiculous.

hacksaaw
20-10-2009, 16:00
didnt the IG win the Ard Boyz?

Mechanized with alot of pie templates, along with powerful psychers, a strong army that is competitive against anything out there.

Asymmetric
20-10-2009, 16:03
No i didn't.
I was talking about the superiority of veterans regarding platoons.
The carnifexs issue was an example. Platoons are not capable of doing the same thing. I'm not talking about a maximised platoon with 5 lascannnons and 5 plasmaguns(obviously), but i'm talking about a platoon that would cost about the same as a full equiped veteran squad.

Again, i'm comparing the 2 and i see the superiority of veteran squads, which is fine. 9 out of 10 IG builds consisting of 5/6 veteran squads isn't.
The problem isn't the IG vets. It's the people abusing them.

Enjoy your guard and consider this discussion ended.

Thats simply ignoring list synergy. Chimera's are one of the best single things in the guard list for there points. Platoons can put more chimera's on the table and be used more cost effectively for dealing with rhinos before their in amongst your lines.

With large numbers of Vendetta's, manticores, devildogs, medusas, demolishers in your list and a melta command squad there simply comes a point when your list needs more firepower in other areas than simply spamming more melta vets.

Asymmetric
20-10-2009, 16:09
didnt the IG win the Ard Boyz?

Mechanized with alot of pie templates, along with powerful psychers, a strong army that is competitive against anything out there.

He did.

He used a mix of mechanised platoons and vets.

In fact heres the 2,500 point list that he used.

"The Leafblower" List - 2500 pts

2 Company Command Squads – 3 Plasma, Medic, and Powerfist in each, mounted in Chimeras. An Astropath and a Master of the Fleet.

Elite Daemonhunter Inquisitor - Terminator Armor, Psycannon, Force Weapon, and retinue (Mystics, Hierophant, Sage). (Placed beside the pair of Medusae to tackle deepstrikers)

Psyker Battle Squad – in a Chimera

Infantry Platoon – 3 Squads in Chimeras with Heavy Weapons, Command with 4 Flamers in a Chimera

2 Special Weapons Squads – Flamers and Demo Charge, Meltaguns and Flamer. (in Valkyries)

Veteran Squads – Meltaguns and Shotguns in a Chimera. Meltaguns, Shotguns, and Demolitions.

2 Valkyries – Multiple Rocket Pods.

2 Medusas – Enclosed Crew Compartments

2 Hydras

Manticore

Grand Master Raziel
20-10-2009, 16:35
I won't deny it's good, it's very powerful and even I was surprised at some of the victories I won in the beginning, but time and again I see people making the same mistakes. They neglect to make multiple assaults, they play too defensively and don't get stuck in, they try compete in a shooting war (I see this a lot, especially with SM armies that have so much more capabilities), they forget they've got krak grenades on everything, they don't surround the chimeras to prevent disembark, they won't utilize fire ports in rhino's to melta drive-by my tanks, they'll disembark right in front of the gunline, etc...


I had to jump in at this, because there's a few points I have issue with. First, in this edition it's ridiculously difficult to trap a unit in a transport, because you have to surround the whole thing, not just block access points. In order to surround an average-sized vehicle, you have to have a pretty large unit, or multiple units. The only armies that can field big enough units at a reasonable price to accomplish this solo are IG and Orks. For the rest of us, the Chimera-embarked squad is worth about half the points (Chimera included) as the units we'd be throwing around the Chimera in order to ensure trapping the unit. That's assuming we can manage to get units into position to pull off such a manuever, which is a very big assumption to make.

Second, no other army gets the return from mech-hatch fire that IG does. Loyalist SM armies only have a couple units that can take more than one special weapon (Sternies and Command Squads). Those units are expensive and don't score by themselves. Tac Squads can only take one special weapon, so the return from drive-by shooting is pretty limited. With Chaos, the number of squads that can take multiple special weapons is much larger, including Troops choices, but the Rhino hatch can still only accomodate two shooters. In either case, in the mech vs mech matchup, the SM/Chaos forces have basically unarmed transports with top hatches that can only accomodate two shooters vs transports with two heavy weapons which can both damage and potentially destroy the transports that the SM/Chaos forces are rolling up in, and the embarked squad can practically (or literally, in some cases) all shoot out of the top hatch at once. What's more, the Chimera (considering what it gets) is negligibly more expensive than the Rhino, while decently-equipped IG Infanty Squads cost about half as much as a reasonably-equipped SM/Chaos squad, and tooled up Vets cost considerablly less as well. So, trying to outcompete IG in the drive-by shooting game is basically a losing proposition.

So, yeah, the only good way for a MEQ army to deal with a halfway-competent IG army is to get stuck in fast, but first they have to get there, and that's where the real sticking point is. It's not enough to get stuck in with one or two good assault units anymore. You pretty much have to get your whole army in there at the same time, and the odds of doing that are pretty miniscule, with the amount of firepower you'll have to weather on the way in. About the only chance one has of accomplishing that feat is to get gimmicky, use the special abilities of characters like Shrike or Kor'Sarro, field a lot of outflankers, or throw down a lot of Land Raiders and hope that your opponent hasn't got a lot of Chimeltavets, Vendettas, or those melta-cannon Hellhound variants. Even Deep Strike isn't really that good an option, because anything that DSes in and shoots is going to be in a nice, pie-plate shaped cluster, and anything that DSes in and runs to get un-clumped can get the FRF,SRF treatment.

So, basically, I raise an eyebrow to see anyone proclaiming, "Oh, poor Imperial Guard!" or to criticize Space Marines for gimmicky characters. Oh no, Vulkan lets a guy have twin-linked flamer and melta weapons! Big deal. IG can field cheap units with 3-4 flamers/meltas, in cheap transports that act as pretty fair gun tanks in their own right, with cheap officers that can issue orders that seriously increase the capabilities of the cheap units in question. I've heard it argued that the Space Marine list has the gimmicky special characters in order to make up for the power disparity between the basic SM list and other lists in the system, such as Orks, Chaos, and now IG. Looking at those lists, I find that a very easy argument to accept.

You don't like Vulkan? Fine, but there's quite a few things in the IG list that I don't like. At the top of that list are Vendettas. For less points than a SM player pays for a tri-las Predator, an IG player can get a vehicle that has the same shooting performance and equivalent armor (trades the AV13 front for AV12 sides), but is a fast skimmer with all that entails, and has a transport capacity to boot! Plus, Predators take up slots that could be taken by the list's other big gun units, whereas an IG player can take Vendettas without taking slots from the pie plate-slingers. About the only balancing factor I've heard anyone offer is, "Oh, the model's pretty big." It couldn't possibly be big enough to make up for that balance disparity.

Another thing I don't like is the Lumbering Behemoth rule. What I dislike about it is that it makes a rule in the main rulebook completely irrelevant. The main rules state (and have stated since 3rd edition) that a vehicle that fires an Ordnance weapon cannot fire any other weapons in the same turn. The whole point of that rule was to keep IG tanks reasonable, because no other army has vehicles that have both ordnance and a signficant amount of other weaponry. The next-most-heavily-armed ordnance-armed vehicle in the game is the Defiler, and it sports a Reaper autocannon, which might as well be spitballs compared to the additional firepower a Leman Russ can have slapped on. So, Imperial Guard tanks have a rule that grants them an exception to the rule that's designed to prevent Imperial Guard tanks from being overpowered. How does that make sense? If IG tanks are going to have an exception to that rule, then there's no point in having the rule in the main rulebook in the first place.

Murphy's law
20-10-2009, 17:12
Thats simply ignoring list synergy. Chimera's are one of the best single things in the guard list for there points. Platoons can put more chimera's on the table and be used more cost effectively for dealing with rhinos before their in amongst your lines. With large numbers of Vendetta's, manticores, devildogs, medusas, demolishers in your list and a melta command squad there simply comes a point when your list needs more firepower in other areas than simply spamming more melta vets.

Veterans in chimera's are better then platoons in chimera's.
Platoon commands with 4 flamers in a chimera are great.
Platoonsquads in chimera's are worthless.

Meriwether
20-10-2009, 17:16
Sounds like you need to find more interesting opponents...

Meri

Inquisitor_Tolheim
20-10-2009, 17:22
Veterans in chimera's are better then platoons in chimera's.Platoon commands with 4 flamers in a chimera are great.Platoonsquads in chimera's are worthless.I see one kind of army all the time:Commandsquad with Creed in chimera5 or 6 veteran squads with 3 melta's in chimera's with hull heavy flamer3 vendetta'sSly marbo3 leman russes or manticores.That's it.It's boring as hell, not unbeatable.

Out of curiosity, how many guard players do you play against regularly? If it's just a few, all in the same club, then it might explain why you see similar lists over and over again.

One reason Chimelta Vets are selected so often is because they are an obvious choice. They don't worry about list synergy, or working with the rest of the army, they are simply good at what they do on their own. Still, that does not change the fact that their roles can be filled just as well, with more flexibility, by a player who designs a synergistic list. Veterans are point and click, but not necessarily the be-all-end-all of guardsmen troop choices.

And why all the Straken hate Vaktathi? :p He's pricey, and you have to design a list around his strengths, but I've found great success using his army buffing skills. Plus he adds a nice bit of bite to the otherwise nearly obsolete footslogging guard force. Not nearly as easy to play as a fully mechanized list, but still loads of fun and fairly competitive.

Murphy's law
20-10-2009, 17:33
Out of curiosity, how many guard players do you play against regularly? If it's just a few, all in the same club, then it might explain why you see similar lists over and over again.

One reason Chimelta Vets are selected so often is because they are an obvious choice. They don't worry about list synergy, or working with the rest of the army, they are simply good at what they do on their own. Still, that does not change the fact that their roles can be filled just as well, with more flexibility, by a player who designs a synergistic list. Veterans are point and click, but not necessarily the be-all-end-all of guardsmen troop choices.

And why all the Straken hate Vaktathi? :p He's pricey, and you have to design a list around his strengths, but I've found great success using his army buffing skills. Plus he adds a nice bit of bite to the otherwise nearly obsolete footslogging guard force. Not nearly as easy to play as a fully mechanized list, but still loads of fun and fairly competitive.

I play in a number of clubs and it's all the same.
Guard players are entitled to play their guard however they want.
But i think it's a shame that IG has become a mono-build.
I used to love that army, but to me there is no more charm in playing with or against it.

Asymmetric
20-10-2009, 17:37
Platoonsquads in chimera's are worthless.

For 120 pts it is not worthless.

I suggest you take sometime to think about that line and what it means to guard list synergys.

I'm sure Vaktathi can enlighten you since his list relies on the basic principle.

Murphy's law
20-10-2009, 17:43
For 120 pts it is not worthless.

I suggest you take sometime to think about that line and what it means to guard list synergys.

I'm sure Vaktathi can enlighten you since his list relies on the basic principle.

Yeah, it's nice to rush towards objectives. And that's it.
They lose the combined platoon options. They lose the option of taking orders.
It makes them (almost) worthless.

Badger[Fr]
20-10-2009, 17:55
They lose the combined platoon options. They lose the option of taking orders.
But in terms of sheer durability, nothing beats Mechanized Platoons. Veterans have a lower model count and, as much as I love my foot-slogging Combined Platoons, they tend to suffer horrific casualties whenever a template hits them.



And why all the Straken hate Vaktathi? He's pricey, and you have to design a list around his strengths, but I've found great success using his army buffing skills. Plus he adds a nice bit of bite to the otherwise nearly obsolete footslogging guard force. Not nearly as easy to play as a fully mechanized list, but still loads of fun and fairly competitive.
Indeed, but he's hardly the no-brainer some people complained about.

Murphy's law
20-10-2009, 18:11
;4055951']But in terms of sheer durability, nothing beats Mechanized Platoons. Veterans have a lower model count and, as much as I love my foot-slogging Combined Platoons, they tend to suffer horrific casualties whenever a template hits them.


Indeed, but he's hardly the no-brainer some people complained about.

Durability, yes. But to me a guardsmen role is not to be durable.
Marines should be durable, guardsmen don't. They should be expendable.

Vaktathi
20-10-2009, 18:12
First, in this edition it's ridiculously difficult to trap a unit in a transport, because you have to surround the whole thing, not just block access points. In order to surround an average-sized vehicle, you have to have a pretty large unit, or multiple units. The only armies that can field big enough units at a reasonable price to accomplish this solo are IG and Orks. For the rest of us, the Chimera-embarked squad is worth about half the points (Chimera included) as the units we'd be throwing around the Chimera in order to ensure trapping the unit. That's assuming we can manage to get units into position to pull off such a manuever, which is a very big assumption to make. Sorry, I know this isn't always possible, and I didn't mean to say it always is or is easy, but when the opportunity is there (two of the last 3 games I played it was at one point or another) it's almost never taken advantage of was my point.


Second, no other army gets the return from mech-hatch fire that IG does. Loyalist SM armies only have a couple units that can take more than one special weapon (Sternies and Command Squads). Those units are expensive and don't score by themselves. Tac Squads can only take one special weapon, so the return from drive-by shooting is pretty limited. With Chaos, the number of squads that can take multiple special weapons is much larger, including Troops choices, but the Rhino hatch can still only accomodate two shooters. In either case, in the mech vs mech matchup, the SM/Chaos forces have basically unarmed transports with top hatches that can only accomodate two shooters vs transports with two heavy weapons which can both damage and potentially destroy the transports that the SM/Chaos forces are rolling up in, and the embarked squad can practically (or literally, in some cases) all shoot out of the top hatch at once. What's more, the Chimera (considering what it gets) is negligibly more expensive than the Rhino, while decently-equipped IG Infanty Squads cost about half as much as a reasonably-equipped SM/Chaos squad, and tooled up Vets cost considerablly less as well. So, trying to outcompete IG in the drive-by shooting game is basically a losing proposition.Again, same as above. Not always possible, and I realize IG have more hatches etc, but I do see it come up usually at least once or twice a game and people just forget that they even have fire points. A game a couple weeks ago an opponent had a rhino full of dudes with an MM and a meltagun that was immobilized, and I had a vendetta within 12", and he never bothered to try and shoot at it from within the rhino, he just sat the troops in there for two turns. With disturbing regularity people just forget to utilize Rhino firing points and it has made the difference between wins and losses for me more than once. Hell, even I've made the same mistake with my CSM's. Fire Points just are so often not even thought about.



So, basically, I raise an eyebrow to see anyone proclaiming, "Oh, poor Imperial Guard!" or to criticize Space Marines for gimmicky characters. Oh no, Vulkan lets a guy have twin-linked flamer and melta weapons! Big deal. IG can field cheap units with 3-4 flamers/meltas, in cheap transports that act as pretty fair gun tanks in their own right, with cheap officers that can issue orders that seriously increase the capabilities of the cheap units in question. I've heard it argued that the Space Marine list has the gimmicky special characters in order to make up for the power disparity between the basic SM list and other lists in the system, such as Orks, Chaos, and now IG. Looking at those lists, I find that a very easy argument to accept. I'm not trying to proclaim "poor imperial guard". I'm saying that often people simply are still stuck in a mindset of IG automatically having to be mediocre and not plan for them. People come to the board with their deathstar killy CC unit and some gimmicky expensive elites and then wonder why they don't seem to work against an army where such units are hugely overkill, instead of just bringing lots of the basics which would work far better.

With regards to Vulkan, again, my hate on him is that not only is he gimmicky, he's priced low enough as to make any of the normal equivalent HQ options pointless, and appears all the time. Facing an army with the exact same special character HQ (who has a rather restricted background) in almost every SM list because he is such a no brainer and never seeing the normal HQ's as a result is why I have a problem with him. Yes, IG have officers that can give orders, but that relies on the infantry *not* being in transports, and orders giving unit being within 12/6", and then getting it off on Ld7/8, and only being able to issue 1 or 2 a turn, and only the HQ CCS can give the ones that matter at all against vehicles and the like, meaning in a mechvets army you'll usually only have the one orders giving unit, and no more than two.


At the top of that list are Vendettas. For less points than a SM player pays for a tri-las Predator, an IG player can get a vehicle that has the same shooting performance and equivalent armor (trades the AV13 front for AV12 sides), but is a fast skimmer with all that entails, and has a transport capacity to boot! Plus, Predators take up slots that could be taken by the list's other big gun units, whereas an IG player can take Vendettas without taking slots from the pie plate-slingers. About the only balancing factor I've heard anyone offer is, "Oh, the model's pretty big." It couldn't possibly be big enough to make up for that balance disparity. I think part of that is a problem with las predators simply not being costed right, although I will say that AV13 front armor matters a hell of a lot more than the side armor and can make all the difference in the world. For it's relative lifespan if someone actually tries to kill it, I don't think vendettas are too far off in terms of points, although I will agree they probably should have been Heavy Support and kept only the normal Valk as FA so I won't argue on that.


Another thing I don't like is the Lumbering Behemoth rule. What I dislike about it is that it makes a rule in the main rulebook completely irrelevant. The main rules state (and have stated since 3rd edition) that a vehicle that fires an Ordnance weapon cannot fire any other weapons in the same turn. The whole point of that rule was to keep IG tanks reasonable, because no other army has vehicles that have both ordnance and a signficant amount of other weaponry. The next-most-heavily-armed ordnance-armed vehicle in the game is the Defiler, and it sports a Reaper autocannon, which might as well be spitballs compared to the additional firepower a Leman Russ can have slapped on. So, Imperial Guard tanks have a rule that grants them an exception to the rule that's designed to prevent Imperial Guard tanks from being overpowered. How does that make sense? If IG tanks are going to have an exception to that rule, then there's no point in having the rule in the main rulebook in the first place. I haven't found it to be that ridiculous. With cover saves everywhere for everything, LRBT's aren't wiping out entire squads at a time, and previously they had all those weapons and never got to use the until the main gun died. Honestly, I think the ordnance-only rule is a holdover from 3E that should have died a long time ago. LR's also previously weren't exactly the most amazing tanks, almost every other MBT did AT and ant-infantry better with the sole exception of anti 3+sv infantry in the open. Ordnance I've found has more of an impact psychologically on most players than it usually does in raw effectiveness. Usually I might kill 2 or 3 models most of the time, it's just the *potential* to wipe off an entire unit that people freak out about, however it's very difficult to achieve this if playing against a competent opponent.




And why all the Straken hate Vaktathi? :p He's pricey, and you have to design a list around his strengths, but I've found great success using his army buffing skills. Plus he adds a nice bit of bite to the otherwise nearly obsolete footslogging guard force. Not nearly as easy to play as a fully mechanized list, but still loads of fun and fairly competitive.I'm not by any means hating on him, just trying to point out he's not some ridiculously over the top no brainer "must take" option. He's good, but not by any means an automatic take.


Durability, yes. But to me a guardsmen role is not to be durable.
Marines should be durable, guardsmen don't. They should be expendable. They still aren't anywhere near SM durability, and are still generally expendable. That said, IG aren't supposed to be like the poor bastards from Enemy at the Gates, they trade lives when necessary, but aren't there to die in numbers sufficient to jam enemy guns with gore. They are still professional, well trained and equipped soldiers (by normal human standards) with the exception of Conscripts which do fill that role.

Asymmetric
20-10-2009, 18:25
;4055951']But in terms of sheer durability, nothing beats Mechanized Platoons. Veterans have a lower model count and, as much as I love my foot-slogging Combined Platoons, they tend to suffer horrific casualties whenever a template hits them.

And we have a winner!

I'll be blunt, melta vets simply aren't very good a holding an objective for there cost. There great at what they do, which is drive up and melta the crap out of things, but while holding an objective they can't contribute anything other than the 1 ML on the chimera hull while they do it and they aren't any tougher than regular guardsmen. 1 minium platoon + 1 vet squad vs 3 vet squads is the difference between a whole extra scoring squad and another chimera hull. In 1850pts games and beyond, platoons really start to excell since you can start filling valkries and such with special weapon teams at the fraction of the cost of vets.

I know this because my current 1,500 guard list spams melta vets and I run into this problem. I don't have a huge collection of models (without borrowing) so I can't run a viable platoon. If I don't table my enemy things can get very shaky in the final turns.

Murphy's law
20-10-2009, 18:28
Well trained yes...but still easy to kill.

Conscripts: send in the next wave...isn't that pretty much Enemny at the gates?
Death Korps of krieg, well trained, but completely expendable footsloggers who die by the millions. Again, sounds pretty enemey at the gates to me.

Sure, there are veterans who survived all those horrors and yes there are specialists who are supreme soldiers. And again yes, lot's of imperial guardsmen, like cadians, are very professional soldiers with good equipment and training. But that's my point. Most IG army's should be a mixture of both to represent a true regiment.
And ofcourse there are exceptions, i can see a home made veteran regiment, or Catachan company. The codex is great and offers bloody good options and fantastic varity. But unfortunately that's not reflected on the tabletop in this part of the netherlands.

Murphy's law
20-10-2009, 18:31
And we have a winner!

I'll be blunt, melta vets simply aren't very good a holding an objective for there cost. There great at what they do, which is drive up and melta the crap out of things, but while holding an objective they can't contribute anything other than the 1 ML on the chimera hull while they do it and they aren't any tougher than regular guardsmen. 1 minium platoon + 1 vet squad vs 3 vet squads is the difference between a whole extra scoring squad and another chimera hull. In 1850pts games and beyond, platoons really start to excell since you can start filling valkries and such with special weapon teams at the fraction of the cost of vets.

I know this because my current 1,500 guard list spams melta vets and I run into this problem. I don't have a huge collection of models (without borrowing) so I can't run a viable platoon. If I don't table my enemy things can get very shaky in the final turns.

What are you talking about?
A veteran squad with plasmaguns in a chimera is far more superior in holding an objective.
A squad with 3 plasmaguns is scary and gives the oponent something to think about if he's going for your objective.
A platoonsquad in chimera just isn't.

Asymmetric
20-10-2009, 18:40
What are you talking about?
A veteran squad with plasmaguns in a chimera is far more superior in holding an objective.
A squad with 3 plasmaguns is scary and gives the oponent something to think about if he's going for your objective.
A platoonsquad in chimera just isn't.

Sigh. Durability. Durability. dura-f-u-c-k-i-n-g-bility. Thats what an objective holder needs.

A squad with the 3 plasma guns is actually descreasing its surviabiliy and increasing it's per unit cost. Your comparing a squad, that with a heavy is costing close to 200 points with one that costs 120 full equided.

Go on. Try it.

Try fitting those squads into a 1,500 point list and see how many you can get while still having a decent number of vendetta's/manticores/battletanks and other toys.

Then try it again with autocannon/grenade launcher mechanised platoons taking up 1 troop choice.

Then come back to me and say that their better objective holders.

Murphy's law
20-10-2009, 18:44
Sign. Durability. Durability. dura-f-u-c-k-i-n-g-bility. Thats what an objective holder needs.A squad with the 3 plasma guns is actually descreasing its surviabiliy and increasing it's per unit cost. Your comparing a squad, that with a heavy is costing close to 200 points with one that costs 120 full equided. Go on. Try it. Try fitting those squads into a 1,500 point list and see how many you can get while still having a decent number of vendetta's/manticores/battletanks and other toys.Then try it again with autocannon/grenade launcher mechanised platoons taking up 1 troop choice. Then come back to me and say that their better objective holders.

You don't get it.
I'm talkin about mixing troopschoice the whole time.
I don't believe in taking pure veteran lists. Thought that would be clear by now.
Still, veterans with scary weapons are better in holding objectives.
They can actually kill units that aproach them and you can give them camocloaks or carapace. Platoons can't.

Asymmetric
20-10-2009, 18:46
You don't get it. I'm talkin about mixing troopschoice the whole time.
I don't believe in taking pure veteran lists.
Thought that would be clear by now.
Still, veterans with scary weapons are better in holding objectives.
They can actually kill units that aproach them and you can give them camocloaks. Platoons can't.

You said platoons were worthless in comparison to vets.

Now your saying that mixed lists are the way to go.

Make up your mind.

Vaktathi
20-10-2009, 18:48
Death Korps of krieg, well trained, but completely expendable footsloggers who die by the millions. Again, sounds pretty enemey at the gates to me. More like WW1 troops, expendable only to a point and often because of rather poor command processes like using entire companies as the smallest element of maneuver instead of platoons and squads, and you see this in the IA books. And even then it's only DKoK siege regiments, Krieg fields other kinds of regiments as well, they just didn't feature in the siege of vraks.



Most IG army's should be a mixture of both to represent a true regiment. For the most part sure, there's also regiments like the Tanith that would best be represented by camo cloak sniper vets (even if a rather poor build in terms of competitiveness) or building an army around a regiments veteran/elite company.



And ofcourse there are exceptions, i can see a home made veteran regiment, or Catachan company. The codex is great and offers bloody good options and fantastic varity. But unfortunately that's not reflected on the tabletop in this part of the netherlands.Could be true. Personally when I field a vet army its 3 units of meltavets and 3 units of AC/3x GL vets with a pintle stubber as well and they've all got the ridiculously expensive carapace upgrade.

Murphy's law
20-10-2009, 19:43
You said platoons were worthless in comparison to vets.

Now your saying that mixed lists are the way to go.

Make up your mind.

That's my statement from the beginning of the thread. Maybe you should try and read before you make your conclusions.

What i said was MECHANISED platoons are worthless compared to mechanised veterans.
That is something completely different.

Murphy's law
20-10-2009, 19:53
More like WW1 troops, expendable only to a point and often because of rather poor command processes like using entire companies as the smallest element of maneuver instead of platoons and squads, and you see this in the IA books. And even then it's only DKoK siege regiments, Krieg fields other kinds of regiments as well, they just didn't feature in the siege of vraks.


For the most part sure, there's also regiments like the Tanith that would best be represented by camo cloak sniper vets (even if a rather poor build in terms of competitiveness) or building an army around a regiments veteran/elite company.

Could be true. Personally when I field a vet army its 3 units of meltavets and 3 units of AC/3x GL vets with a pintle stubber as well and they've all got the ridiculously expensive carapace upgrade.

Tanith is a good example and that's what i mean. There is nothing wrong with playng a tanith themed pure veteran army.
Unfortunately the army's i see are cadians, more cadians and then some...
I get your point and i agree.

I like your veteran built. You don't care about penalising yourself with some
weaker elements. More power to you.

I did the same thing with my vostroyans.
I had some ridiculous expensive veteran squads with carapace armour, 3 plasmaguns and lascannon, veteran squads with 3 snipers and heavy bolter and teams with triple grenade launchers and heavy bolters or heavy flamers.
Not allways reliable, but fun.

I can see the use of a few veteran squads with meltaguns, but not six of them. How many tanks do people expect to encounter annyway?
Most of the time there is just a couple of them and often they are just transports.
Something that can be killed by a lascannon/autocannon/plasmagun without much trouble.

Asymmetric
20-10-2009, 19:53
That's my statement from the beginning of the thread. Maybe you should try and read before you make your conclusions.

What i said was MECHANISED platoons are worthless compared to veterans.
That is something completely different.

Why wouldn't you take Chimera's? Their worth it by themselves if your using other armour.

You can still merge the platoons if you desire.

Murphy's law
20-10-2009, 19:55
Why wouldn't you take Chimera's? Their worth it by themselves if your using other armour.

You can still merge the platoons if you desire.

I'm not talking about chimera's. I'm talking about units riding INSIDE of them.

Asymmetric
20-10-2009, 20:05
I'm not talking about chimera's. I'm talking about units riding INSIDE of them.

And why would a mechanised platoon have to ride inside their vehicles. Nothing preventing you from merging them all at the start of the game if you desire. Likewise theirs nothing stopping you from putting them in the transports if it turns out your enemy has a thunderfire and a pair of whirlwinds in his list.

Murphy's law
20-10-2009, 20:10
And why would a mechanised platoon have to ride inside their vehicles. Nothing preventing you from merging them all at the start of the game if you desire.

For the last time...i was comparing mechanised vets to mechanised platoons RIDING in chimera's. Is it really THAT hard to understand?

Obviously it is...

bye bye

Asymmetric
20-10-2009, 20:18
For the last time...i was comparing mechanised vets to mechanised platoons RIDING IN chimera's. Is it really THAT hard to understand?

Obviously it is...

bye bye

It's very hard to understand. The guard player is under no obligation to actually put his mechanised platoons in their transports, rather than merging them, unless it's advantageous for him to do so. (like the aforementioned whirlwind usage)

Murphy's law
20-10-2009, 20:24
It's very hard to understand. The guard player is under no obligation to actually put his mechanised platoons in their transports, rather than merging them, unless it's advantageous for him to do so. (like the aforementioned whirlwind usage)

Well...think hard.;)