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Writerski7
14-10-2009, 02:39
Apart from making myself look like a total @#*$@%$ in the 40K universe, I feel like we should shed some light on 40K back-ground by answering this question. Anybody know anything relating to Star-Child, post here. I will start by asking these questions:

Is the Star-Child Marneus Calgar?

Is the Star-Child Chuck Norris?

Frep
14-10-2009, 02:46
There is nothing anywhere to suggest marneus calgar is anything more that a space marine chapter master, though one with a hell of a left hook.

On the subject of Chuck Norris, the eye of terror is there because he roundhouse kicked the universe, being the star-child is beneath him

Meriwether
14-10-2009, 03:04
The Eye of Terror would be the sphincter of Chuck Norris, but it isn't awesome enough.

Meri

ctsteel
14-10-2009, 03:21
Essentially the Star Child is from early 40k background material, being the emperor's newly reincarnated god-form after he finally died.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Emperor_of_Mankind#The_Star_Child

madprophet
14-10-2009, 03:34
The Star Child background was introduced first in the Realm of Chaos books and mentioned later in the 3rd Edition Warhammer 40,000 guide.

The Star-Child is the Emperor's soul is currently forming as a new entity (the Star Child) in the warp and that he will be reborn (Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned).

Over the almost 50,000 years the Emperor walked among mankind he formed many families and fathered children. A few of his descendants have inherited the powers of the Star Child. These are the "Sensei". A hidden group that call themselves the "Illuminati" know the Emperor is failing. They also know of the "Fall of the Eldar" and seek to prevent Man's own fall to Chaos. The Fall of Man to Chaos would create a new Chaos god, and with its birth, a new warp/real space overlap, encompassing the entire Imperium. They gather the Sensei together, protect them from the Inquisition, and pave the way for the rebirth of the Emperor. Their plan is ultimately to sacrifice the Sensei to the Emperor at the moment the Emperor finally fails; he will be renewed, and be reborn as the Sensei-Emperor to again lead his race in person.

While the Star Child background was introduced in the original 40K version, and dismissed as heretical in 3rd edition in favor of the more vague "Iron Men and Stone Men" history, the current Inquisition's "Thorians" believe in a similar concept of the Emperor's rebirth.

The Emperor is the incarnation of the extinct Shamans who, with their prophetic powers and connection to the warp in its natural and uncorrupted form, had guided ancient mankind. After Horus rebelled and destroyed the Emperor's mortal frame, his body and soul could no longer remain as one; his soul melted into the warp, only a tiny core of the Emperor's humanity remaining whole, which was like a small child in a tiny reed boat adrift in the storm of the warp. Since the Emperor's soul survived, there was a possibility that his whole essence could be reborn once more.

In the same way the Shamans died together to reincarnate as the Emperor, the Emperor's death too could herald a new savior. That time would lie far in the future, when mankind's desire for a new savior would strengthen the core of the Emperor's soul and rekindle it to new life.

The soul of the Emperor adrift in the warp is the Star Child. The humans that were left in charge of the Imperium had no real understanding of what had happened to the Emperor. Though the Emperor's body continued to live within the Golden Throne and his mind continued to be a beacon for humanity, his soul is a god waiting to be born.

The Star Child is also suggested as being the compassion which the Emperor thrust from himself in order to destroy his most beloved Primarch-son, Horus. (Inquisition War Trilogy novel series, Ian Watson, Black Library Publishing)

The Inquisition (particularly the Ordo Malleus) has always been at war with the Sensei, the "Emperor's Sons". In 997.M41, Inquisitor Fortez reports that he and his colleagues Alexio and Credo determined the Temple of the Star Child on Levilnor IV consisted of unwitting pawns of Tzeentch, so they eliminated it.[2] It is noted in Rogue Trader that ammunition for the Inquisition's Psycannons and Psyk-out grenades derive their anti-psychic effect from being impregnated with the rare negative psychic energy - the only known source of this energy being the byproducts of the Emperor's metabolism. Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned notes that the Inquisition has discovered this energy can also be produced from rendered-down Sensei.

Writerski7
14-10-2009, 04:05
Thank you Madprohpet.

On warseer I have seen both Marneus Calgar and Chuck Norris identified as the Star-child. If you wanted to know why I asked . . .

Ethriel
14-10-2009, 04:37
He's the one singing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNGNLo8K6Fk&feature=fvw

Neverr3st
14-10-2009, 05:24
While the Star Child background was introduced in the original 40K version, and dismissed as heretical in 3rd edition in favor of the more vague "Iron Men and Stone Men" history, the current Inquisition's "Thorians" believe in a similar concept of the Emperor's rebirth.



Does this mean that the fluff is no longer viable, and what about the sensei or illuminati, or any other background stuff from the rogue trader years

madprophet
14-10-2009, 06:28
The fluff is viable, it was just presented as heretical in 3rd edition (2 editions ago) - just remember everything you've been told is a lie :)

You, as a player/army designer, decide what fluff you want to use.

Besides, the Thorians think it's true... anyone who questions you on it you can tell 'em to take it up with Sebastian Thor! :D

TrojanWolf
14-10-2009, 07:23
Besides, the Thorians think it's true... anyone who questions you on it you can tell 'em to take it up with Sebastian Thor! :D
Wasn't Sebastian Thor executed as a heretic?

LexxBomb
14-10-2009, 07:46
no he became a high lord of terra

Dhazzakull
14-10-2009, 07:55
if he would have refused to become a high lord he would have been executed

Iuris
14-10-2009, 09:04
On warseer I have seen both Marneus Calgar and Chuck Norris identified as the Star-child. If you wanted to know why I asked . . .

The star child story is rather old and has probably been abandoned. It hasn't been reprinted in later editions and the latest mention was as a cult that has been purged (removing traces form the 40k millenium - compare to Squats being eaten by Tyranids).

However, it is a story of "the great savior of humanity" that will come and wipe all enemies of humanity away, etc. etc. etc. As such, it will appear in ridicule.

Marneus Calgar is the leader of the Ultramarines chapter. A space marine chapter master. The problem is that in the past, the Ultramarines were the "vanilla" of space marines - the basic, nothing special flavor. With the latest codex, more attention was paid to them, adding quite some heroic exploits, some special units and similar. In the process, Marneus Calgar went from a rather bland "Two power fists and a storm bolter chapter master" to one of the greatest heroes of the imperium. Of course, this ruffled some feathers, and he has become the focus of quite some fan hate.

ctsteel
14-10-2009, 09:20
Wasn't Sebastian Thor executed as a heretic?

I thought I remembered it that way too, but I believe it was actually a quiet spoken preacher (I think) who helped overthrow a heretical demagogue that had organised a full rebellion on a world. This loyal preacher managed to create enough resistance to help bring down the heretic. However his actions and words led to Inquisitorial interest, with Inquisitor Lord Karamazov arresting him on suspicion of heresy and (I think) warp taint due to the power of his words and the fact that after his efforts in bringing down the heretic, the people of the planet in turn worshipped him as their leader.

Other Inquisitors of Thorian alignment were convinced that this preacher was the reincarnation of Sebastian Thor, and demanded his release so they could examine him further, but Karamazov, wishing to deny them this, tried him in private, declared him guilty and burned him to ashes.

There was some investigation afterward that I think showed the person had latent psychic powers or such, which supposedly proved Karamazov correct but it was a bit grey in terms of the truth.

Iuris
14-10-2009, 09:54
Sebastian Thor certainly wasn't executed, he is possibly the foremost saint of the Imperium. He became the focus of resistance against Vandire, came to Earth, was rather forced into becoming the Ecclesiarch and reformed the Ecclesiarchy (except for the Temple tendency remnant, which very few know of). Far as I know, died peacefully.

The THORIANS are an inquisition faction. They see Thor as a vessel of divine power and are examining the possibility of resurrecting the emperor. So, they go around investigating "special" humans to see if a new vessel for the Emperor's soul could be created. I think a founded figure of these is the one executed. I'll have to reread the thorian sourcebook.

TrojanWolf
14-10-2009, 21:17
Ah, I see. I play Orks, so when I read the words "trial of Sebastian Thor," I just figured they killed him.

Writerski7
14-10-2009, 21:25
The fun of being an Inquisitor . . . "I have all the power of the Imperium at my fingertips! Bow to me or die!!! Ahahahaha!!!" I mean who needs a Star-child with so many of these guys running around? But still, I recall GW saying all their previous fluff (yes including Rogue Trader and before) is still valid and applicable to this day.

spetswalshe
14-10-2009, 21:42
I always imagine the Star Child looked exactly like that baby at the end of 2001; A Space Odyssey. Then I imagine it would probably have gotten torpedoed by now.

Karhedron
15-10-2009, 13:34
The fluff is viable, it was just presented as heretical in 3rd edition (2 editions ago) - just remember everything you've been told is a lie :)

You, as a player/army designer, decide what fluff you want to use.

Exactly, GW have moved away from presenting fluff in absolute terms. Instead they tend to have stories giving certain point of view. You no longer have narrator-style voice-overs giving potted history.

This is probably a smart move since it means that they can change things or introduce elements more easily. Never heard of alien race XYZ before? That is because Inquisitor 123 has only just reported them. Think you knew what happened in the War in Heaven? No, you had just heard one particular version of the legend, now here is a different one.

borithan
15-10-2009, 15:53
The star child story is rather old and has probably been abandoned.It hasn't been mentioned. Doesn't mean it has been abandoned. As said, it was brought up again in a slightly altered form for the Thorians.



It hasn't been reprinted in later editions and the latest mention was as a cult that has been purged (removing traces form the 40k millenium - compare to Squats being eaten by Tyranids).Not true. If you read it the Inquisitor claims to have eliminated a Tzeentchian cult which called itself the "Cult of the Star Child". This does not mean that what they actually found was the actual cult of the Star Child. They may have simple found exactly what they think they have found, a chaos cult with that name. Or they may have wiped out some Sensei and their followers, but that in no way means that all the Sensei are all destroyed, and the entirety of the Cult of the Star Child eliminated. Nothing said in that 3rd edition bit means that the Sensei and the Cult of the Star Child are gone for good. Now, they may be, but not because that bit of story tells us so. The main point was more that they were moving away from that kind of 40k stuff, away from the little hope there was and delving deeper into the "grim dark", but they did so in a way that allows them to come back and use it again (like they have done with the Thorians, to a limited extent) if they choose to.



GW saying all their previous fluff (yes including Rogue Trader and before) is still valid and applicable to this day. Where there is no direct contradiction between items everything is considered canon. And most things that people claim contradict each other in fact to not. One example where there certainly is a contradiction though is the very first presentation of the "Eye of Terror" in RT compared to now (back then it was a region of space normally cut off by warp storms and therefore largely lawless, but not actually chaotic, and so therefore apparently populated by punk biker gangs).

LexxBomb
15-10-2009, 16:33
well given that the Inquisition war series was republished a couple of times would say that the fluff is still cannon

Iuris
15-10-2009, 17:22
Ah, I see. I play Orks, so when I read the words "trial of Sebastian Thor," I just figured they killed him.

Ah, the trial. Yes, there was a trial against Thor.

Thor was the leader of the rebellion. Once the war reached a stalemate on Earth itself, the Custodes took some of Vandire's bodyguard Daughters of the Emperor to see the Emperor himself. What they saw no one knows, but the leader of the guard immediately executed Vandire upon their return.

Afterwards, the siege ended. But, not everything was clear. Thor himself was put on trial, and every aspect of him was scrutinized for heresy. He was found completely sinless.

Since he was absolutely clear of any doubt in his integrity, due to the trial's findings, he could be made the new Ecclesiarch with no doubt of his integrity.

Iuris
15-10-2009, 17:35
It hasn't been mentioned. Doesn't mean it has been abandoned. As said, it was brought up again in a slightly altered form for the Thorians.
Of course GW has never officially repudiated it. They may have simply kept quiet, and be saving it. However, I myself see the story of the cult as a "OK, so it was printed, but it was only a cult, and the cult has been destroyed. Just like the squats have been eaten by Tyranids. It's open to interpretation.


Not true. If you read it the Inquisitor claims to have eliminated a Tzeentchian cult which called itself the "Cult of the Star Child". This does not mean that what they actually found was the actual cult of the Star Child. They may have simple found exactly what they think they have found, a chaos cult with that name. Or they may have wiped out some Sensei and their followers, but that in no way means that all the Sensei are all destroyed, and the entirety of the Cult of the Star Child eliminated. Nothing said in that 3rd edition bit means that the Sensei and the Cult of the Star Child are gone for good. Now, they may be, but not because that bit of story tells us so. The main point was more that they were moving away from that kind of 40k stuff, away from the little hope there was and delving deeper into the "grim dark", but they did so in a way that allows them to come back and use it again (like they have done with the Thorians, to a limited extent) if they choose to.

Of course it's not clear. It never is, with GW. But I think the overview I offered is a suitable introduction to the matter so a guy who has never heard of the story can gain an appropriate feeling for what it's all about.


Where there is no direct contradiction between items everything is considered canon. And most things that people claim contradict each other in fact to not. One example where there certainly is a contradiction though is the very first presentation of the "Eye of Terror" in RT compared to now (back then it was a region of space normally cut off by warp storms and therefore largely lawless, but not actually chaotic, and so therefore apparently populated by punk biker gangs).
GW have simply stated that they are not going to bother with declarations of canon. Everything is canon and nothing is canon above anything else.

So I decided if GW wasn't going to bother to care about their background, I'd find someone better to do it. I did - me. I no longer care about GW canonicity. I take 40k material, and mentally rewrite it to fit together and make sense. Grants me a wonderful peace of mind :)

PikeZ33
15-10-2009, 17:48
He's the one singing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNGNLo8K6Fk&feature=fvw

Second. The Emperor's rise to glory and fall at the hands of Horus, leading to his rebirth in the warp as the Star Child was all an elaborate scheme planned by Chaos to melt the universe's face off with classic rock.

Iuris
15-10-2009, 18:11
Heh, looking at the signatures of people around can be damn helpful: the whole story has been kindly transcribed byThe Emperor here:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3660252#post3660252

Thorin White Wolf
15-10-2009, 22:07
The star child may well be the emperor when he dies but the empeor can be brought back but inquisitor lords who know this can be done are too scared to try because of two main things:

1. They have no garantee that he will be the one they put in the emperors body( possAbly a deamon my get in or tzynch himself)
2. They are worried the emperor when he does come back will turn his back on mankind because how the imperium has changed.

The first point is from the short story at the start of inquisetor rule book. The second from faith and fire and deamon hunters.


I have also heard that cypher is tring to get to the emperor to eather give him the sears of the tree of life. Or kill him so that he can pass into the warp and become a chaos god himself and with more followers clean house thus ridding the galexy of chaos.
(read somewhere can't think where)

Writerski7
15-10-2009, 22:12
It hasn't been mentioned. Doesn't mean it has been abandoned. As said, it was brought up again in a slightly altered form for the Thorians.

Not true. If you read it the Inquisitor claims to have eliminated a Tzeentchian cult which called itself the "Cult of the Star Child". This does not mean that what they actually found was the actual cult of the Star Child. They may have simple found exactly what they think they have found, a chaos cult with that name. Or they may have wiped out some Sensei and their followers, but that in no way means that all the Sensei are all destroyed, and the entirety of the Cult of the Star Child eliminated. Nothing said in that 3rd edition bit means that the Sensei and the Cult of the Star Child are gone for good. Now, they may be, but not because that bit of story tells us so. The main point was more that they were moving away from that kind of 40k stuff, away from the little hope there was and delving deeper into the "grim dark", but they did so in a way that allows them to come back and use it again (like they have done with the Thorians, to a limited extent) if they choose to.

Where there is no direct contradiction between items everything is considered canon. And most things that people claim contradict each other in fact to not. One example where there certainly is a contradiction though is the very first presentation of the "Eye of Terror" in RT compared to now (back then it was a region of space normally cut off by warp storms and therefore largely lawless, but not actually chaotic, and so therefore apparently populated by punk biker gangs).

So that's why Chaos bikers have thos punk hairstyles . . .


Second. The Emperor's rise to glory and fall at the hands of Horus, leading to his rebirth in the warp as the Star Child was all an elaborate scheme planned by Chaos to melt the universe's face off with classic rock.

. . . yeah I lost you at 'Classic rock' :angel:

Karhedron
16-10-2009, 12:31
I have also heard that cypher is tring to get to the emperor to eather give him the sears of the tree of life. Or kill him so that he can pass into the warp and become a chaos god himself and with more followers clean house thus ridding the galexy of chaos.
(read somewhere can't think where)

Hmm, sounds like you have heard some of the background for Warhammer 43K. Never heard of it?. Time for a little bit of almost-history. :)


Let's go back in time to 1997 during the later stages of 2nd edition, there was an idea mooted to move the setting into the 43rd millenium and radically advance the timeline. All sorts of stuff would have happened including some of the Primarchs returning, Chaos finally getting out of the Eye and assaulting the Imperium at large etc.

The back-story to all this was that Cypher finally managed to reach Terra and presented the Lion Sword to the Emperor. The Emperor refused to forgive the Fallen Dark Angels and so Cypher killed the Emperor (or his husk at any rate). This caused the collapse of the Astronomican and of the Emperor's psychic shield over humanity. Psykers started manifasting everywhere, warp rifts opened all over the Imperium and all kinds of unholy hell broke loose.

Basically the idea was to move the setting forward to the Rhana Dundra (the final battle between good and evil at the end of the universe). In this storyline, the Blood Angels would have schismed with half the Chapter falling into the Worship of Khorne. However half the Chapter would have remained loyal and Sanguinius would have returned to lead them by possessing Mephiston.

The missing Loyalist Primarchs would have returned/woken up (or found a decent hang-over cure in the case of Russ ;)) to try and save mankind. The battle would have been trying to hold the Imperium together long enough for the Star Child to awaken before humanity was consumed by Chaos.

Needless to say that Warhammer 43K didn't happen. It was realised that this development would marginalise every race apart from Imperial, Chaos and Eldar. It would also pretty much preclude further development of the game. White Wolf ran into this problem with their roleplaying games when they used up all the plot threads they had spent years developing in the Gehenna storyline.

The idea was dropped and instead we got 3rd edition as we saw it with the storyline effectively stopping at 999 M41. However echoes of this storyline can still be found in the fluff. In Codex Dark Angels there is a piece of fluff where a Fallen Dark Angel claims that Cypher had reached Terra and killed the Emperor. This is what would have happened in 43K and triggered the collapse of the Imperium. Also some of the Black Library books detail a Blood Angel who is apparently possessed by the spirit of Sanguinius.

The fluff developed for 43K was largely abandoned but easter eggs were included in the 3rd edition fluff to amuse those who had been involved in developing it.