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Ominous Anonymous
14-10-2009, 17:51
This is a discussion continuing from the Blood Angels thread in the News and Rumours subforums. An argument arose over the question of whether or not Blood Angels should allow Assault Squads as troops in the new codex, and over how much the Blood Angels adhere to the Codex.

My opinion, to start the matter off, is that the Blood Angels have always been a chapter that is Assault-oriented/has a preference for close combat/red wunz go fasta. Even though only the most current codex allows RAS as troops, the previous codices were unique for their use of Veteran Assault Squads, jump-pack equipped Honour Guards for HQs, and especially the Death Company; all of which emphasizes on Jump Infantry. To me, not only is giving Blood Angels RAS as troops a way to make the army very unique from other Marine lists, but fluff-wise it is not uncommon for multiple companies to go to war simultaneously. Here's an example I gave in the rumour thread (emphasis mine):


And I still say that you guys have no imagination about all this. Perhaps the game you're playing could be part of a speartip assault headed by a combination of the 1st, 2nd, and 5th Companies composed of their Assault troops, making drops out of Thunderhawks into battle. That would be a good excuse to only be using Assault Squads as troops, wouldn't it?

Thoughts?

Lord Damocles
14-10-2009, 17:58
In my opinion, giving Blood Angels Assault Sqauds as Troops choices is making the list different from regular Marines for the sake of making it different.

As it stands, there really is so little to differentiate Blood Angels from Vanilla Marines (come on, Ultramarines even have Veteran Assault Sqauds and close combat Dreadnoughts now...) that they don't deserve their own variant list.

However because they've traditionally had a variant list (the variations which set them apart being originally created purely to justify giving them a seperate list), it's felt that they 'deserve' one now. Thus variations on the standard list are created (Assault Squads as Troops for example) to justify Blood Angels having a variant codex, which in turn is justified by them having variations from 'standard Marines' which no longer actually exist.

GideonRavenor
14-10-2009, 18:07
In my opinion, any lack of variation is due to the Blood Angels having no worthwhile codex for years; they should really be non-codex enough to deserve their own book, and this should (and probably will be) addressed in said book.

However, having Assault Marines as troops seems to be a rather strange and slightly dull way to fix this, and I hope it was only a temporary measure for the White Dwarf list.

Emeraldw
14-10-2009, 18:09
Personally I just see it is a limitation on the game system. While in the fluff they may not use assault troops all the time, but on the table top there is a clear preference and expectation that Blood Angels use assault troops a lot.

The fluff also states how powerful a marine should be but that isn't represented accurately in the table top. So we already have across the armies various things that just don't fit the fluff so giving Blood Angels assault squads as troops to help make a unique and fun codex is an easily forgivable offense.

Edit:
Also, when it is redone, I am sure there will be other things that just troop assault squads that make them stand out. Furious charge army wide anyone? :D

Ominous Anonymous
14-10-2009, 18:16
Furious Charge would be nice, I agree, though it will probably be accompanied by a return of the Rage-like rules from 3rd edition.

Another thing I noticed is that while Battle Companies can only field 2 Devastator squads (like Assault Squads), you can technically field three as your Heavy Support choices (or 3 RAS as your Fast Attack choices), which means that even Codex: Space Marines doesn't necessarily follow the Codex 100% either.

Tethylis
14-10-2009, 18:23
I have no problem with BA's fielding assault squads as troops, its part of their uniqueness (is that even a word?) after all the Dark Angels can field raven/death wing as troops so why not? Like you said BA's have allways been an assault theemed army, i see them much as orks in power armor!

My regular opponent has allways been BA's and even back in 2nd ed he used to like to fill the board with jump packs and charge screaming at my guys. Now if only they would find some way to field aspect warriors as troops too (looking at you banshees) then i'd be happy too :D

Mudkip
14-10-2009, 18:43
People don't complain that being able to take Deathwing Terminators as troops is unfluffy for Dark Angels. Or that being able to take Scouts as troops is unfluffy for codex SM (there are probably less Scouts in the average chapter than there are assault marines). Are Dire Avengers as common as Guardians because they are both troops? Of course not, so we can conclude that being a troops choice is not necessarily a statement of numbers.

By allowing Blood Angels to field assault squads as troops, it frees up their fast attack slots for Land Speeders and Attack Bikes and changes the character of the army. Combined with their Baal Predators and ability to field special weapon on mounted combat squads, this allows the Blood Angels to field a rapid moving assault army of many small, fast units that work in tandem to attack a single point with great efficiency. Combined arms with a good mix of shooting and close combat using precision strike tactics, just like a codex astartes chapter should behave with the BA signature preference for getting up close and personal thrown into the mix. Pople aren't giving the pdf codex enough credit for representing the BA's character.

Despite their access to assault squads as troops, BA are still more balanced than Black Templars or Space Wolves in their mix of shooting and close combat (fitting for a more-or-less codex chapter), with razorback mounted tacticals rushing over to the enemy, blocking line of sight to their assault squads following behind and multi-squad rapid-firing the enemy to create a weak point for next turns assault. The tactical marine and his bolter is alive and well in BA armies and assault squads as troops gives BA a suitable flavour whilst not diverging from the fluff. It can easily be claimed that an army using many assault squads is simply the spearhead of an assault.

Kirill
14-10-2009, 18:52
Seems easily justifiable to me, to create a uniqueness to the chapter on the table at least, and one that is badly needed, i might add.
It's not especially inspired or clever, but there's a demand to change the marines up so it's not all Codex Astartes all the time.
People whinge like crazy on Warseer, a lot of it is about the amount of marine codexi around.
I'm sure nobody would complain if each of them played as differently as Russ's Wolves or the Templars, it would also help the codex: Space Marines to feel unique in and of itself.
So a good change, but it can't be the only difference inside their book. It has to go hand in hand with several other big changes, and a lot of small ones.

Fluff wise it's possible. And changing the fluff so that they have one more assault squad per company wouldn't be that crazed either.
Rules wise it's damn near necessary for above reasons.
I highly doubt all blood angels will be all assault marines all the time on the table top, but to have the option there would be nice i think.

Call me crazy but i think the Codex Astartes should be thrown into the eye of terror, it makes for such bland Angels.

Mánagarmr
14-10-2009, 18:52
People don't complain that being able to take Deathwing Terminators as troops is unfluffy for Dark Angels.

That's a bad example, considering the fluff specifically states their ability to do so, much like the fluff makes note of Logan having an unusually high amount of Wolf Guard in his ranks - these things are very clear.

While in contrast, the Blood Angels are more or less Codex marines. As Lord Damocles mentioned, it seems like an attempt to be different - just to be different.

I'm not arguing against them having their own codex - don't get me wrong, I just think they could be made unique in ways other than this.

Mudkip
14-10-2009, 18:59
It's not a bad example at all. A codex chapter has 22 regular assault squads at it's disposal (220 marines), therefore the fluff specifically states the ability of the BA to field a few dozen assault marines in the same place at the same time.

Lord Damocles
14-10-2009, 19:04
It's not a bad example at all. A codex chapter has 22 regular assault squads at it's disposal (220 marines), therefore the fluff specifically states the ability of the BA to field a few dozen assault marines in the same place at the same time.
18 surely ;)

2nd Company - 2 squads
3rd Company - 2 Squads
4th Company - 2 squads
5th Company - 2 squads
8th Company - 10 squads

Mudkip
14-10-2009, 19:05
My mistake (was thinking there were six battle companies for a moment) but the point stands that they are entirely capable of fielding assault marines in enough numbers to form the body of an army. In war it is a good idea to deploy things in strategically significant amounts after all.

Lord Damocles
14-10-2009, 19:08
Then again, a Chapter could field 18 Devastator Squads as well. Or 10 Command Squads. Or 20 Predators.
Doesn't neccessarily mean that the list should allow it though.

Mánagarmr
14-10-2009, 19:11
My mistake but the point stands.

So your point stands that you should ignore FOC because in theory the entire chapter could be at war?

Couldn't that be argued for every army?

Mudkip
14-10-2009, 19:13
That's just being obtuse. It is well known that the BA are fond of assaults and I've already explained how it allows the BA to field a more characterful army. The irony is that the vaunted Deathwing probably came about in the same way (GW wanted people to give Dark Angels something different and let them field a certain unit more often).


So your point stands that you should ignore FOC because in theory the entire chapter could be at war?

In a 1500-2000 point game how many assault marines are there going to be? 20-30 at most in a sensible army it easily falls within the region of a single battle company reinforced by reserves, deploying their assault squads as a spearhead. Notixe I said a few dozen in the same place at the same time.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/obtuse

Mánagarmr
14-10-2009, 19:21
That's just being obtuse.

Is it? How is it anymore obtuse than you're being?

Your justification for fielding them as troops is that they "could" if they wanted to. Well I'm sure the Necrons could field an army of only Lords and Monoliths, it doesn't mean they should be allowed to.

If you're going to use this stance to argue for a point, it can damn well be used to argue against you.


It is well known that the BA are fond of assaults

The Aurora Chapter are fond of tanks, yet there is no optional build to field a list in C:SM of only armour, because they're still codex marines - much like Blood Angels.


I've already explained how it allows the BA to field a more characterful army.

You've made the point that it makes them different, not more characterful.

Mudkip
14-10-2009, 19:27
It's obtuse because you are refusing to recognise that the BA have an established fondness for assaults and therefore it follows to allow for this in their rules. By allowing them to field more fast attack units they start to look more like a marine army geared up for attack. Being a codex chapter known for their attacks, having a codex structure with somewhat more leeway for assault units makes sense.

And as I said in my first post, most common BA armies field more tactical marines anyway, assault squads as troops usually gives them a wider degree of fast attack options than regular marines to represent their aggressive character. If you don't like it fine, but you are just being studiously obtuse and contrary by arguing that allowing assault squads as troops is somehow unfluffy. It's not.

Murphy's law
14-10-2009, 19:30
Is anyone aware that assaulttroops are troops in the current codex?

Having assaulttroops as troops is just like split-firing- longfangs. Nescessary? Probably not. Fun? Yes.

Ominous Anonymous
14-10-2009, 19:36
They are, but it's a relatively new concept as the previous two did not and there is an upcoming 4th one.

Emeraldw
14-10-2009, 19:39
Is anyone aware that assaulttroops are troops in the current codex?

Having assaulttroops as troops is just like split-firing- longfangs. Nescessary? Probably not. Fun? Yes.

I think everyone is well aware of this fact, Many just feel that it doesn't represent Blood Angels well and in fact creates a certain kind of mindset as to what Blood Angels are and aren't.

Of course, the fluff could change and assault marine armies are the norm!

Fobster
14-10-2009, 19:41
I remember a reference once in 2nd ed to the ba losing their devastator company to an assault from worldeater beserkers. So maybe some restrictions on devastator squads.

I hope they make deathcompany an add on to basic squads. As not all forces will have the time to form up a seperate unit to herd at the enemy. I also think the death company fluff should be tweaked to imply that they are kept in the dungeon and deployed when they the BA need a unit for a suicide mission and taken back afterwards. Hopefully away from prying eyes.

BA should also loose access to scouts as troop choices, if they gain assault squads. In the fluff BA pop fully formed out of their coffin after a year. So there is little need for them to develop in a scout squad as they are physically able to wear all the marine kit. the role of a tac trooper would surely be a lot less training intensive, than survival and infiltration training to be an effective, special forces type infiltrator?

Mánagarmr
14-10-2009, 19:42
It's obtuse because you are refusing to recognise that the BA have an established fondness for assaults

I'm being obtuse, because I'm asking you to give a solid reason that is anything more than the wish-listing it sounds like.


If you don't like it fine, but you are just being studiously obtuse and contrary by arguing that allowing assault squads as troops is somehow unfluffy. It's not.

It is unfluffy, that's what you seem unable to grasp - "fondness" isn't justification for a FOC change. I'm pretty sure you're aware of this as well, and is why you ignored debating my examples and instead rely on spamming the word obtuse.

I'd be fine with this change to be permanent if you could argue for any stance aside from "WELL THEY REALLY LIKE IT".

Mudkip
14-10-2009, 19:42
Of course, the fluff could change and assault marine armies are the norm!

It's more like mechanized tactical marines, supporting baal predators, speeders, attack bikes and assault marines together due to freed up fast attack slots really than just assault marine spam. Few players actually use pure assault marine armies because it' a one-sided strat.



"fondness" isn't justification for a FOC change.

I didn't say they should have assault marines as troops based on nothing but fondness, I stated they have well established background material for it. They are in fact famous for their assaults according to the fluff.

Given that you are now misrepresenting my arguement, I've got a whole new word for you to learn:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

And the FOC doesn't represent fluff. I could field a codex SM army composed nothing but scouts for my troops choices. It's not particularly fluffy since they aren't mainline infantry or even particularly numerous. The reason scouts are troops choice because they don't really fit in the other FOC slots that well, it doesn't mean they changed the fluff, it's a gameplay mechanic.

Arkley
14-10-2009, 19:48
Assault Squads as troops is for armies like the Flesh Tearers... BA are still codex with the exception of the DC.

MontytheMighty
14-10-2009, 19:52
It is unfluffy


how is allowing assault squads as troops for BA's unfluffy?
it is a bit of wishlisting, but it seems to be wishlisting with a basis in the fluff

Mudkip
14-10-2009, 19:55
It's not wishlisting btw, it's the current state of affairs.

CthulhuDalek
14-10-2009, 19:59
THe truth of the matter is that the 5th ed C:SM should have had options for a blood angels codex -- that was not the case, so moving on--

The current 5th ed codex allows SM players to field a biker army. These are the same assault marines who would also take up jump packs. You have the option to field 60 bikers in one foc. That's 6 assault squads! Plus the FA bikers...

Is my point coming through?

Yes, other armies *might* use their whole assault company at once, even being codex chapters, but guess what the blood angels are *known* for it. And since they're going to get their own codex whether they deserve it or not, this is something that should be in there.

EDIT.

Also, the FOC and fluff do not always go around tied at the hip. There is no connection between tactical squads fluffwise and the troops entry in the codex, other than that GW decided to put them there in Codex Space Marines. That's it. They are the supreme masters of this! For loganwing/deathwing lists you have terminators running around as troops! Surely you can't use that many terminators at once *head explodes*



It is unfluffy, that's what you seem unable to grasp - "fondness" isn't justification for a FOC change.

Logan likes to field all of his wolfguard. Deathwing like to field all their termies. Biker captains like to drag around their whole biker companies...

Jackmojo
14-10-2009, 20:05
The only differences based on Force Organization Chart slot would be:

1. Scoring Assault Squads.
2. The ability (not a requirement to) field a slightly increased quantity of Assault squads.
3. The ability to field an army lacking tactical squads.

None of these rules changes alters existing fluff in any way.

Jack

P.S. I'll never understand the folks out there who argue that less options in army construction is a good rules choice.

Mánagarmr
14-10-2009, 20:06
I didn't say they should have assault marines as troops based on nothing but fondness, I stated they have well established background material for it. They are in fact famous for their assaults according to the fluff.

So are the World Eaters and Night Lords, it isn't a unique trait found amongst Blood Angels; and as I previously mentioned, the Aurora Chapter are famous for their armoured assaults, yet as a codex chapter they're not allowed to field Tanks in such numbers.


Given that you are now misrepresenting my arguement

That would require you having a a valid argument in the first place, brah.

DeathTyrant
14-10-2009, 20:12
How about taking Dante allows you to take Assault Marines as Troop Choices?
Seeing as how almost everyone seems to take him now (I assume he will remain a staple unless the new Codex nerfs him).

Or perhaps instead of a Master of the Forge that allows you to take Dreadnoughts as Heavy Support, you could have a 'Master of the Pwning noobs with Chainswords' that also makes AM troops?

That way you have to pay for and use up a HQ slot to get them?

Karhedron
14-10-2009, 20:14
They are, but it's a relatively new concept as the previous two did not and there is an upcoming 4th one.
Not true, you could field all Assault squads in the 2nd edition codex as they were classed as infantry (although to be fair the same was true of codex chapters too). The 3rd edition codex is the only one which specifically forced a player to take Tactical or Scout squads.

2nd Ed AoD and 4th Ed PDF have both allowed all-assault squad armies.

As to the fluff, this changes and evolves, it always does. Back in 1st edition Blood Angels were a chapter like any other. Then in late 1st edition they got the Death Company which were scaled up from their very first appearance in Epic. Then in 2nd ed we got the special characters we know and loved plus things like Vet Assault squads. The list goes on but you get the gist.

The fluff is not set in stone, it grows and evolves. I don't mind GW adding to it as long as they do not butcher it beyond recognition.

Karhedron
14-10-2009, 20:15
How about taking Dante allows you to take Assault Marines as Troop Choices?
Seeing as how almost everyone seems to take him now (I assume he will remain a staple unless the new Codex nerfs him).

Better still, Dante allows VAS to be taken as Troops! :D

No worse than a Logan Wing. ;)

Jackmojo
14-10-2009, 20:21
2nd Ed AoD and 4th Ed PDF have both allowed all-assault squad armies.


Don't forget the lists in the back of the 3rd edition BRB! That was also the only time they were required to take them too (as any required slots in Troops or FA had to be Assault Squads).

Jack

Dangersaurus
14-10-2009, 20:45
how is allowing assault squads as troops for BA's unfluffy?
it is a bit of wishlisting, but it seems to be wishlisting with a basis in the fluff

I agree. Actually, since it's in the fluff, and it's in every single BA codex to date, it's not even wishlisting. The wishlisting is being done by those who for some reason want to take it away.

Murphy's law
14-10-2009, 20:47
Assault Squads as troops is for armies like the Flesh Tearers... BA are still codex with the exception of the DC.

Baal predators, Furioso's, overcharged engine-rhino's?

Murphy's law
14-10-2009, 20:49
I think everyone is well aware of this fact, Many just feel that it doesn't represent Blood Angels well and in fact creates a certain kind of mindset as to what Blood Angels are and aren't.

Of course, the fluff could change and assault marine armies are the norm!

If they aren't more assaulty then other marines, why do they have overcharged engines?

CthulhuDalek
14-10-2009, 21:33
So are the World Eaters and Night Lords, it isn't a unique trait found amongst Blood Angels; and as I previously mentioned, the Aurora Chapter are famous for their armoured assaults, yet as a codex chapter they're not allowed to field Tanks in such numbers.


Except that the assault marines for chaos became raptors.

Frankly, the argument SHOULD be: Nightlord should be allowed to take raptors as troops. Not: Blood Angels shouldn't.

The Aurora chapter *can* take--

2 landraiders, 6+ razorbacks, 3 vindicators, 3 dreadnoughts. That's a lot of armour...

GodofWarTx
14-10-2009, 21:44
I missed the tactical challenges of organizing charges with my 3rd/4th edition BA. Being able to get maximum impact with my tactical squads on the charge was far cooler to me than paying for the horribly expensive Assault Squads as Troops option.

I would rather have a tactical marine with furious charge being the BA mainstay than an assault marine with BP+CC . To me, the 2nd option reminds me far too much of my Black Templar army. It was nice being able to get some great usage out of power weapons on the sargeants with S5 and I5. I rarely took powerfists based on how effective it was. Obviously if i was the one getting charged i tended to get creamed.

I also would like to see the Furioso not suck again. Moriar the chosen needs to make a reappearance to show those Ironclads who daddy is.

The only way i would find it reasonable if they included something like an Assault Company Captain special character who allows them to be used as troops for those who really really really really want jump pack spam. Now, if this is combined with army-wide FC then it will be quite strong, to be honest.

Ronin_eX
14-10-2009, 22:02
Like all the marine chapters that get their own codices the Blood Angels need to evolve to the point where they deserve one (much like the Dark Angels). GW needs to finally go ahead and realize that if they are going to give them whole new books then it needs to amount to more than a copy/paste job.

They need to come up with new and interesting variations on the list that make it more than a normal marine list with a handful of differences. Giving them a couple of vehicles and one or two unique units will simply not suffice. They need unique organization to go along with it. It's easy to do this while keeping the core themes and central background alive.

If GW can make radical changes for chapters like the Black Templar and Space Wolves then I see no reason why the same attention can't be given to the Blood Angels and Dark Angels who have been left as 'Codex plus a couple things and minus a couple others' for twenty bloody years.

Players shouldn't have to wait so long to get what amounts to a minor revision on the main marine codex and xenos players shouldn't get their releases held up by anything less than a fully unique and different codex. If GW are going to give the marines that many releases then each one should be a fresh and unique look at how various marine armies can be done.

DavidW86
14-10-2009, 22:11
Like all the marine chapters that get their own codices the Blood Angels need to evolve to the point where they deserve one (much like the Dark Angels). GW needs to finally go ahead and realize that if they are going to give them whole new books then it needs to amount to more than a copy/paste job.

They need to come up with new and interesting variations on the list that make it more than a normal marine list with a handful of differences. Giving them a couple of vehicles and one or two unique units will simply not suffice. They need unique organization to go along with it. It's easy to do this while keeping the core themes and central background alive.

If GW can make radical changes for chapters like the Black Templar and Space Wolves then I see no reason why the same attention can't be given to the Blood Angels and Dark Angels who have been left as 'Codex plus a couple things and minus a couple others' for twenty bloody years.

Players shouldn't have to wait so long to get what amounts to a minor revision on the main marine codex and xenos players shouldn't get their releases held up by anything less than a fully unique and different codex. If GW are going to give the marines that many releases then each one should be a fresh and unique look at how various marine armies can be done.

They could play up the vampire theme of BA's...not so far as having them riding on bats like Canis, but letting them bite people would be silly enough to fit in 40k

Imperialis_Dominatus
14-10-2009, 23:07
I'm fine with it. DA get bikes/Termies as Troops. Only follows that someone should get the option for Assault Marines. Devastators are a bit different, in my opinion, as few are the Chapters which stick to static heavy weapons shootan. It doesn't fit the necessary style of a Marine option, it doesn't fit the playstyle of a Marine list, it doesn't scream fluffy to me. Plus it'd be overpowered.

As long as this thread is going into wishlisting, here's a post I made on the B&C on this topic.


Models

I'd like to see a plastic Honor Guard/Blood Angels upgrade kit with artificer armor for the Honor Guard/HQ conversions. It should also have a helmet akin to Lemartes' so we can convert our own version of him or use it as a Death Mask for an HQ. Similarly, another classical version of the Death Mask, like Dante's, should be present. There should be parts to make Sanguinary (High) Priests as well. And Blood Angel shoulderpads and iconography. And some loyalist chainaxes flesh tearers. And a grail. And a shroud for a standard bearer. Lots of stuff.

Also, plastic Baal Pred. And a Dread Furioso box with an upgrade for the sarcophagus and combat arm.

Fluff

Moar. Just moar. Especially on Successors.

And explain Lemartes. He hasn't overcome the Flaw as Mephiston did. But what has he done? Is he in a constant state of twilight, channeling it? I think that's the best explanation.

Rules

Army Wide:

We are Codex as a Chapter and thus should get some Codex units. I think Thunderfire and Sternguard are a bit out of character but can see Thunderfire more easily. Our vets are definitely going to be more into getting stuck in than anything, but them silly Mars-adherents might be alright with shootan instead of choppan.

Specifically, we should have our Honor Guard upgraded, the Ironclad Dread, and Land Speeder and Land Raider variants.

Equipment in line with C: SM. I don't care that we have our own flavor or whatever, our Storm Shields shouldn't just plain suck because of our paintjob!

All units should have more options in line with the recent Codices.

I think we should have a Chapter Tactic. Furious Charge sounds good. Fleet might be too Raven Guard. And we're a Marine army with choppy accents.

Artificer armor, master crafted weapons, Death Masks, Grails, Holy Shrouds, et al. Also, Inferno Pistols and Hand Flamers. Just sayin'.

Over Charged Engines as mandatory for transports and an upgrade for line tanks.

All squads can have five to ten members (excluding attached, see below), not just five or ten.

HQ:

Dante should have Eternal Warrior if any Space Marine is going to. I don't give a damn about Lysander, he's only got it because he has an I1 weapon and GW knew IF would raeg without him being immune to squad fists. Dante needs something to represent his prowess on the battlefield as well as his inspirational presence- perhaps give one unit Heroic Intervention or Fleet or Relentless or something each turn. Or something more strategic rather than tactical (1st turn, choosing deployment, terrain, something). Or all. It's Dante ferSanguiniussake. And Orbital Bombardment. And a boost to the Axe Mortalis. Perhaps VAS can hold objectives? I'm just throwing out ideas here.

Bring back Sanguinary High Priests. Give Corbulo and the unit he's with Relentless and/or Stubborn to represent their protectiveness of the Grail. Add in regular Sanguinary High Priests as upgrades to Honor Guard and line squads who don't take a FOC slot.

Librarians need MORE POWER! More awesome BA powers especially (damn Ultras stole Quickening :down: ). Also, jump packs. Mephiston should be even more badass than our Libbies, and on par with Tigger (if not better), needs a good Invuln or Eternal Warrior.

Chaplains should be more combat-oriented and have Litanies of HATE. Just thought you all should know.

Speaking of Chappies, Lemartes needs a price bump. Beyond that, some more fluff as above. Perhaps able to buy 'extra' DC.

Cleutin should be an upgrade to an Honor Guard squad of your choice, and should grant a buttload of awesome to your army and a similarly sized buttload of pain to your enemy. He's carrying the Shroud of Sanguinius himself, for goodness' sake!

Honor Guard should be a retinue.

Tycho can be bought as a Captain. His rules should be buffed so he either really supports your army (I'm talking on Dante's level here) or really kicks tail in close combat- or both. Maybe not a power weapon, but a larger number of attacks to represent his descent into the Rage? He can also (but not in the same FOC) be bought as an upgrade for your DC. With all the awesome therein.

Bring in a few more characters. We've got Dante, Mephiston, Lemartes, Tycho Vanilla, Tycho Death Company Flavor, Cleutin, Corbulo, and Moriar the Chosen. How about Chapter Master Seth? Death Company in his army should be mandatory, maybe add more guys. A few upgrade sergeants as has been the trend lately? Just not Arkio or Rafen, please.

Elites:

Furiosos get Tear Attack.

Moriar the Chosen is back, baby, and better than ever (and better than Bjorn, more importantly).

A Veteran Scout Squad as an Elite choice. BS4 WS4 all around, with some nasty tactic. Sabotage or somesuch.

Troops:

Regular Scouts who are teh noobz. BS/WS3. You know.

Keep letting us take Assault Squad troops. Maybe only if you take a Captain, Tycho, or Dante (or other Captain/Commander characters).

Fast Attack:

No real complaints here not mentioned in Army Wide.

Heavy Support:

Again, not a lot.

The Eternal Death Company Problem:

Look, I can understand people saying that Death Company are iconic in a Blood Angels force because it's completely true. But it's completely unreasonable to expect them to be in every battle ever. Otherwise the Blood Angels would be extinct (unless the Baal system has a few hives we don't know about). Them and their Successors. Especially the Flesh Tearers (you all know why) and the Angels Encarmine (who tend to get into even more combat than your average Marine).

Ergo, I throw in my lot with those who want them to be optional.

But they should be optional and desirable, so you do see them in many armies. They should not be something you have to make compulsory or something that makes your list less competitive if you don't take them (as previous incarnations have seen). It's a silly way to force a theme.

They should be bought as a unit, from five to ten (or more) models. They should be under more control if they have a Chaplain or Sanguinary (High) Priest with them. They should have the option of one (or a few) models being upgraded to Sergeants with the potential for wargear. Jump pack or Rhino, you know the deal.

I'm thinking they should be outside the FOC (but nominally Elites). If in Troops they shouldn't be scoring or able to take compulsory slots. I think they should not affect Kill Points in any way, really, since they're dead men walking.

There could also be an option for a 'Lone Wolf' style DC- a single guy who does reverse kill points- you want him to get into combat and kill stuff and die, your opponent wants to outmaneuver him and keep him alive. Of course, that is probably too much cut and paste. It could be a mandatory option if you don't take the other DC (to appease our mandatory-DC-overlords)- though this single guy could perhaps be one of the volunteers for DC duty (as I mentioned above) and thus maintain some level of self-control.

Just throwing some ideas out there.

Rant
14-10-2009, 23:15
There's a number of BA IC's that have jump packs, Dantes and Lemartes off the top of my head. I wouldn't be surprised (nor bothered) if either of those allowed you to take some version (Veteran or otherwise) of Assault Troops as scoring troops. For as good as Assault Troops are as scoring units (The move surely helps them claim objectives easier) it doesn't help them HOLD an objective any easier. They have significantly limited range and firepower, which makes it EASY to dislodge them.

So, honestly, I don't see why anyone would really care. At least a tactical squad has bolters which can shoot to 24" or twice within 12" and has a heavy weapon and the like :) Assault troops are designed to dislodge, not to really hold, they're not really suited for it.

An army with all assault troops would be pretty easy to take objectives from. That's why you still need Tactical Marines, they get dug in easier, while assault marines can get stuck in easier.

All in all, I don't see why anyone would be against having nothing but assault troops as scoring units. I'd love to face that. Holding your assault squads still so they can be pie plated... good call.

Wolfguard Gnarl
14-10-2009, 23:32
If the Blood Angels are going to get their own codex or angels of death codex then I think they should have something unique, assault squads as troops would be fine by me and a shiny new baal predator =)

Zanzibarthefirst
14-10-2009, 23:33
I'm fine with it. DA get bikes/Termies as Troops. Only follows that someone should get the option for Assault Marines.

And like SW and Wolf Guard a certain character is required. By linking changes in FOC to a character you are unsuring a legitimate reason why such numbers of x are used. It woudl only be natural for Belial to be in an army with lots of terminators. However, it is highly unlikely that Bob the 6th company captain would have access to such number of temrinators. If Dante allowed VAS as troops then this woudl represent Dante's personal guard

BigBossOgryn
14-10-2009, 23:49
Anyone who thinks that Blood Angels shouldn't recieve their own codex because they aren't unique enough need only draw their attention to the Black Templars and Dark Angels codices. GW found a way to pack those books full of regurtitated vanilla marine units, spiced with a couple original squads and finally served with a healthy helping of named characters. If they can sell you a new codex, they will.

Besides, I can't see assault squads becoming troop purely because it costs more to buy 10 marines and a Rhino than 10 assault marines. You know, for that other themed Blood Angel army.

Imperialis_Dominatus
14-10-2009, 23:49
And like SW and Wolf Guard a certain character is required. By linking changes in FOC to a character you are unsuring a legitimate reason why such numbers of x are used. It woudl only be natural for Belial to be in an army with lots of terminators. However, it is highly unlikely that Bob the 6th company captain would have access to such number of temrinators. If Dante allowed VAS as troops then this woudl represent Dante's personal guard

Codex: Space Marines reversed that trend somewhat; a bike-equipped Captain (not a special character) can include bikes in his force as Troops. I see it this way. A jump-pack equipped Captain (or other HQ, I don't think Captains should be the be-all and end-all) of the Blood Angels lets you take Assault Squads as Troops. And in the post above, you'll note I suggested VAS as Troops by Dante.

Ideally there would be one Codex: Space Marines that covered all Codex-adherent Chapters including Dark Angels and Blood Angels. It could include options to represent variants. Cue separate Codices detailing the Space Wolves and Black Templars. However, this will never happen.

SideshowLucifer
14-10-2009, 23:57
In my opinion the Death Company and maybe furious charge would go a long way towards making the Blood Angles a unique chapter. Add in a few items costed differently and maybe make Chaplains their captains or something (to keep an eye on that thirst) and you have avery unique chapter that still leaves room for specific types of HQ's to alter the Force Organization and stll follow the basic Codex.

Zanzibarthefirst
15-10-2009, 00:01
When I said certain character, it didnt neccessarily have to be a special character, as you pointed out SM captains but at the end of the day he still is a character just not one thats special.

If GW retcon the codex and say that in each company, there are 20 tactical marines, 60 assault marines and 20 devastators the logic woudl then be that a character woudl be needed to gain more assess to tactical marines thus showing a certain type of characters preference for such thing.

mattschuur
15-10-2009, 00:12
I don't have a problem with giving them back furious charge and keeping assault squads out of the troop selection. Remember, in the codex before the WD one Assault Squads were "not" troops.

what i honestly see happening is Blood Angel tacticals staying 15-16 points apiece, gaining Furious charge and maintaining ATSKNF while losing Combat tactics and Combat squads. However, their tacticals probably wouldn't and shouldn't have the Bolter, BP, CCw option to keep Furious charge from being to powerful. Or make them the only current marine unit not named Blood claws to exchange their Bolter for a ccw giving them the BP/ccw combo.

The whole reason Blood Angels with Furious charge were considered op back in 3rd was that you could charge out of Rhinos after they moved. Combined with BA rhino's being super fast, it was an almost guaranteed turn 2 assault by 40 marines with S 5 and I 5 that only costed 15 points.

matt schuur

Mánagarmr
15-10-2009, 00:28
I was looking over your wish-listing, Imperialis, and there are some solid suggestions there, but I have a few questions.

I was curious - in what way should Morleo Moriar be Better than Bjorn, and why?

I also wondered, is there a source that shows Mephiston to be of the same, or for that matter, "greater" power than Brother Librarian Tigurius?

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-10-2009, 01:15
When I said certain character, it didnt neccessarily have to be a special character, as you pointed out SM captains but at the end of the day he still is a character just not one thats special.

If GW retcon the codex and say that in each company, there are 20 tactical marines, 60 assault marines and 20 devastators the logic woudl then be that a character woudl be needed to gain more assess to tactical marines thus showing a certain type of characters preference for such thing.

Tac Marines can still arm up as Assault Marines since they're trained to, but I see your point.


I was curious - in what way should Morleo Moriar be Better than Bjorn, and why?

To be honest, I would just like him to be back in the army list. I was fanboying along with my fellow Blood Angels there.

Though I think there's a case for Moriar being I4, that's about the only real advantage statwise I'd suggest, to be honest.


I also wondered, is there a source that shows Mephiston to be of the same, or for that matter, "greater" power than Brother Librarian Tigurius?

Two reasons.

Because I liked it better in the old days when Tigurius was surely 'one of the most powerful psykers' in the Imperium rather than objectively 'the most powerful' bar the Emperor. The 5th edition's slight change of wording there is the product of Mat Ward's fanciful and probably drunk imagination, and I approve of little he has produced. I would like to see the 'one of' wording supported by bringing another canon psyker to his level.

Because Mephiston beat the Black Rage and in doing so unlocked his full psychic potential- took a level in bad ass, so to speak. I don't have the original source (as the 3rd edition Codex and 4th edition PDF are rather sparse, and I do not own Angels of Death (though I would like to), but I know his psychic ascension is described in better detail there.

Mánagarmr
15-10-2009, 02:07
Fair enough point on Tigurius - in Matt Wards defense though, while his fluff can be a bit much, he made a well balanced codex, IMO.

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-10-2009, 02:16
...alright, he did okay on that. I will never condone the fluff rape though. :p

Hellebore
15-10-2009, 02:34
Blame GW. They were the ones that allowed it to be published, which either means they asked him to write it like that or liked what he had written.

Either way, it only came out the way it did because GW wanted it to.


It's a bit hard to guess what they will do with the blood and dark angels. Now they've shown their willingness to make any old crap up if it means increasing the army size to sell miniatures, I have visions of the Blark Angels' armies receiving half a dozen new units out of nowhere simply to justify their existences as seperate codecies.

At the moment the Blood Angels don't have much variation from the codex. All codex chapters have a reserve company of assault marines, as well as one of devestators and two of tacticals. So the idea that blood angels can deploy more assault troops than other codex chapters is false.

I think the death co should definitely be decoupled from the rest of the army. It's just silly.

But the really big changes you can make come entirely from retconning their background to allow for things that weren't there originally.

Hellebore

Ominous Anonymous
15-10-2009, 05:52
I think the use of RAS as troops is purely a gameplay mechanic as others have said, or else we'd all be restricted to 2 Devastator squads and Assault squads apiece to appease the fluff. And even then it's not hard to give an explanation for why more than the standard number of Assault squads are being used at a single battle.

CthulhuDalek
15-10-2009, 07:43
It'd be interesting for Dante to: make VAS scoring, but keeping them basically the same points as now, with maybe cheaper jump packs -- the ability to score making them at least near their points cost. Notice scoring, rather than troops.

Make the rule that as long as one HQ choice in your army has a jump pack, assault marines may be taken as troops.

Their tactical squads should be identical to the codex marine squads, without combat tactics, give them furious charge, cost about the same, make them cost about 170, but flip the cost of powerfist and power weapons. Maybe there will be an army wide special rule, drawback?

The Chapter Master of the Flesh Tearers special rule could be: more than one unit of death company may be fielded?

Interesting idea for death company would be that they always count as a killpoint for the enemy, but make them even more insane in combat once they get there? They'd be relatively cheap, get rending, furious charge, feel no pain, rage, any number may be upgraded to sgts for 5-10 pts, may select upgrades from there?

3 attacks base, 4 for extra cc, 5 on a charge? Nah, that may be a little crazy, but still, they give up a free killpoint no matter what -- this also means the enemy has less reason to target them initially, they've already scored them!

wilsongrahams
15-10-2009, 08:38
I see nobody is budging from their stances or even accepting that it is just as fluffy for blood angels to use assault squads when led by an assault captain as dark angels are to use terminators cos they are led by a terminator captain. I see no difference - it is just a specific part of the chapter and not the whole chapter after all.

Maybe having a special character as leader of the 8th company would allow you to take assualt squads but no tactical or devastator.

I also still think that allowing you to take assault squads instead of heavy support choices would be a good idea as that allows you to concentrate on one aspect but also penalises you for doing it.

The other option is allow tactical squads to equip as assault units but without jump packs and so being troops, but keeping the jump packed assault squads as fast choices still.

I started collecting Blood Angels one month after angels of death was released in 2nd edition, and i regularly used an assault squad and death company as the main part of my force, backed up by a tactical squad. These three were rarely out of my army and were chosen because they fitted the fluff from the codex - in particular a story about a captain and his squad taking out a load of traitors that the mordian iron guard couldn't.

Because the fluff pointed me towards the assault theme, I have always felt that way about them and so I will always disagree with any argument that fluff states otherwise because the only thing that states otherwise is that the chapter does not have more assault units than a codex chapter - this does not mean however that they field them the same - I imagine they field them more so, leading every attack with tactical marines to follow and hold objectives and then the devastators hold the fort.

With this in mind, another option could be to take the assault troops as troops on the FOC but not have them count as scoring units, requiring you to take tactical squads to hold the objectives still.

hawo0313
15-10-2009, 10:06
Sorry by saying this but is it just me or did the pdf codex mention that the blood angels live for abnormally long amounts of time this GW said was what allowed the BA to perfect the art of war its under THE CHAPTER TODAY in the pdf mini-dex so when I compared the BA to the SM my first thought was

"sigh of all the ways to make an army seem elite or unique why do it by making the squads more expensive and having worse equipment"

so while wer'e wishlisting on the new BA dex could we make thier veterans more elite not OTT say just one more Ws or something to represent experience in battle

Edit: and also Lemartes should make DC scoring (just throwing it out there)

SideshowLucifer
15-10-2009, 10:41
DC should never be scoring. I would however, love to see the DC have rules like the Lone Wolves where they are not worth Kill points unless they survive the battle.

wilsongrahams
15-10-2009, 10:54
Yeah I like that idea - makes you want to give them that heroic death instead of a descent into madness and a bus trip to the tower of amareo.

pookie
15-10-2009, 12:01
Anyone who thinks that Blood Angels shouldn't recieve their own codex because they aren't unique enough need only draw their attention to the Black Templars and Dark Angels codices. GW found a way to pack those books full of regurtitated vanilla marine units, spiced with a couple original squads and finally served with a healthy helping of named characters. If they can sell you a new codex, they will.



Yeah the BT Codex really does just re-use Sqds from SM Dex :rolleyes: and they are busting to the seams with all 2! of there special characters..

BA should follow in the same way they have in the past allowing Assault Sqds as troops, but i do like the idea that this is done like the Belial way as people have suggested.

Karhedron
15-10-2009, 12:01
DC should never be scoring. I would however, love to see the DC have rules like the Lone Wolves where they are not worth Kill points unless they survive the battle.

I agree, both rules are very fitting for DC and would support them being used in the correct way. I.e. hurled at the toughest enemy they can find. :evilgrin:


If they can sell you a new codex, they will.

And like the good little GW addict that I am I will trot out and buy it. :D

AmasNagol
15-10-2009, 13:20
Just allow Tactical Squads to have Bolter/BP/CCW. And leave JP marines for the Fast Attack choice.

Simples.

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-10-2009, 14:02
Blame GW. They were the ones that allowed it to be published, which either means they asked him to write it like that or liked what he had written.

Either way, it only came out the way it did because GW wanted it to.

Yes, you're completely right. But while I may rage at the wolf pack that eats my cat I'm going to focus my hate on the single wolf that grabbed him, aren't I? :p

Ominous Anonymous
15-10-2009, 15:42
Just allow Tactical Squads to have Bolter/BP/CCW. And leave JP marines for the Fast Attack choice.

Simples.

If I wanted to play CSM instead of an all-jump pack force, I would. Why does nobody get this? :p

mattschuur
17-10-2009, 16:08
I get it, but I personally find it unfair that Blood Angel Jump packs can score and my vanilla marine or Chaos raptors can't. Why? Why can nobs taken as troops score but not those in Elite? Stupid rules is why. Frankly the objective takers should have been any Infantry unit (including Jump infantry). Then the arguments, inconsistencies, and wishlisting about what troops should be included in the troop section would go away. Again, what makes BA assault squads more able to hold an objective than any other jump troop? Nothing.

However, that is not a BA complaint but a rulebook complaint. I personally don't have a problem with BA taking Assault squads or bikes as troops so long as there is either a special character or the captain with the same equipment rule that allows it. However, Assault squads starting as troops, no.

Even so, i still think Blood Angels becoming the only loyalist force with furious charge base will go a long way to separate them from other marines. Again, give Tacticals the option to exchange their bolter for a CCW and they are the only tactical type marine unit that can do that and have a WS of 4 with furious charge.

matt schuur