PDA

View Full Version : Dark Elf Wishlist...



Mad Doc Grotsnik
19-01-2006, 23:38
Well, it's time for one of these for my beloved Druchii.

As we can tell, every army in Warhammer is on a constant round about of development. And being one of the older lists out there, I reckon it won't be too long (three years tops) before the Dark Elves get their shiny new book. This is just a thread to see what people are hoping for!

Me, the following...

In the style of the Wood Elf Spites, little gribbly Daemon familiars to offer interesting boosts and that.

A Witch Elf character (I mean, come on...please? They used to exist. Now they don't. How the hell am I meant to run a suitably Witch Elf themed army without a decent leader?

The return (yes! I mean it!) of the Cityguard. Quite a fantastic little unit. And our Warriors are meant to be a citizen militia.

Executioners, well, tweaked. S5 Elves will killing blow is great, until you remember your striking last. Not good when your an Elf!

Black Guard. Well, something other than Halberds would be nice, unless of course they are getting tweaked as a weapon for 7th Edition (come on attack in ranks!)

A bit of points drop on Reapers. I appreciate they are rock, and dependable. But 100 points? Isn't that, well, a bit much? A Gobbo Speerchukka is 35! You telling me the increased BS and 6 shot option gobbbles up 65 points?

And, well, for troops, thats about it. Everything else works beautifully in my opinion!

And now onto Magic Items.

Right design team. Have a look at our items. Have a good look at them. Until Storm of Chaos came out, our Magic Items were pretty crappy really. Sure, we have a *lot* of Weapons, but for such an allegedly Magical race, our Enchanted and Arcane items are frankly laughable! Either too restrictive in choice, or just plain crap. The Bound Items need to be one SUCCESSFUL use only! Otherwise they are a waste. And sort out the banners. The ones we have (barring Soul Shadow Standard, which is sweet!) are somewhat lacklustre, and smack of a lack of imagination when they were being designed.

And gonnae tinker a bit with Dark Magic? I mean, it's okay. Ish. Would be nice to have a single spell that doesn't require LoS!

And an addendum....

I'd like to see the Character leading your army have something similar to virtues and that, which dictate the organisation of the army. Dark Elf Nobility are meant to be quite individual. I'd quite like to see that reflected in their armies. Even just a certain bias based on which city your Highborn or whatever is from!

Baindread
20-01-2006, 00:03
In the style of the Wood Elf Spites, little gribbly Daemon familiars to offer interesting boosts and that.


I would like to see this too.




A Witch Elf character (I mean, come on...please? They used to exist. Now they don't. How the hell am I meant to run a suitably Witch Elf themed army without a decent leader?


/Agree.




A bit of points drop on Reapers. I appreciate they are rock, and dependable. But 100 points? Isn't that, well, a bit much? A Gobbo Speerchukka is 35! You telling me the increased BS and 6 shot option gobbbles up 65 points?


/Agree.



And, well, for troops, thats about it. Everything else works beautifully in my opinion!


Character models. One sorceress on foot and one butt-ugly mounted one? Three special characters? Come on. (Chaos got a lord on mount for every mark and one on foot for every mark and a generic chaos character and greater daemons etc.etc. Not just chaos though, everyone else has at least one normal character)



And now onto Magic Items.

Right design team. Have a look at our items. Have a good look at them. Until Storm of Chaos came out, our Magic Items were pretty crappy really. Sure, we have a *lot* of Weapons, but for such an allegedly Magical race, our Enchanted and Arcane items are frankly laughable! Either too restrictive in choice, or just plain crap. The Bound Items need to be one SUCCESSFUL use only! Otherwise they are a waste. And sort out the banners. The ones we have (barring Soul Shadow Standard, which is sweet!) are somewhat lacklustre, and smack of a lack of imagination when they were being designed.


Less weapons. Keep the good ones ;). More enchanted and arcane items. Otherwise DE got some of the best magic items in the game (Not counting that 100p armor which makes you into a slightly more durable human lord :rolleyes: )


And since it is a wishlist, all Dark Elves get T4 ;)

Drasanil
20-01-2006, 00:16
-Dark Spites, but it should be limited to sorceresses, due to the spites' nature.

-A kindred/honor style system for DE heroes, including the option for witch elf/khainite heroes and lords.

-Some decent magic items, I don't care if they're particularly powerfull or not but it would be nice to have some that are, intersting, in character, and don't look like they were put together on the back of a napkin.

-Fix/get rid of stupidy for cold ones, I could live with them having the same stupidity rules as they did in 5th edd. Or stop calling dark elves an 'elite' army, elite armies don't have to deal with stupidity and other such randomness when it comes to their expensive cavalry.

-Drop bolt throwers to 75 or 85pts, they were undercosted in 5th edd and they're overcosted in 6th.

-Monsters... that rae actualy worthy of being called monsters dang-knabbit! *spits*

I'm sure I could think of more, but thats what is bugging me the most about the DE list.

Zeb
20-01-2006, 00:47
- I'm no fan of the sprites in regards to incorperate it into the Druchii. (Remeber we want unique things not just rip-offs).

- The Honor/Virtue/Kindred/Blood Line/Spawning thing would be apriciated.

- An upgrade on the MI, we are more or less using the same thing everyone of us, I wounder what the salesman in Naggarond charges you for the Wand, Gauntlet and Heartstone these days...

- A Witch Elf character, sure. Make the Beastmaster smarter so that we start using them (not only on manticores), the rules for Skavern Beasmaster in a WD would be nice. It will help fix stupidity as well. Fix the Assassin (BS 9/10, but cant have a missileweapon...? He can join scoutes, but he is too good to have a missile weapon...)

- I want my free move for the Dark Riders back, but I know this will never happen.

- New Character models, plastics and Dark Riders...

- Fix the fluff! When was the last time we sacked something? Well, I think we had help from the TK when we sacked a town in Estalia, like ages ago according to our book.
We always lose against the HE, the Lizards has beaten us once or twice in thier AB/WD, heck even the Dwarfs managed to kill a monster and win a battle in a recent WD. I'm fed up with always beeing close, but get kicked in the but in the end. We want to burn something, and win something...

cerealkiller195
20-01-2006, 02:32
better/more magic/arcane items would be great. A better assassin, beastmaster or witch elf heroine. Lower the BT by 15-20pts.

Lord Anathir
20-01-2006, 02:45
i dont think you want something similar to the high elf honor system. its horrible really.

NakedFisherman
20-01-2006, 02:50
All are good except the daemon familiar things. There's no real basis for that and they're pretty unnecessary and tacked on.

There's lots of Dark Elf background out there, but incorporating them into the rules is somewhat difficult. Perhaps personal attendants or lines of kinship, for instance.

A shade general would be nice too.

Trunks
20-01-2006, 04:03
In the style of the Wood Elf Spites, little gribbly Daemon familiars to offer interesting boosts and that.

I don't think this is needed. I'm not opposed to it, but it is kind of taking away something that is unique to wood elves.



A Witch Elf character (I mean, come on...please? They used to exist. Now they don't. How the hell am I meant to run a suitably Witch Elf themed army without a decent leader?


I'd rather see the option to take a Vow/Kindred to turn a Lord/Noble into one of the following:
Witch Elf, Executioner, Corsair, Shade/Dark Rider, Black Guard, or Beastmaster. This would allow theming in the army better.

I want an Executioner hero . . . (currently my noble with Draich of Dark Power).

And I want a witch elf hero as well to lead one of my witch elf units . . .


The return (yes! I mean it!) of the Cityguard. Quite a fantastic little unit. And our Warriors are meant to be a citizen militia.

I don't see the need for Cityguard really. It would completely overshadow the need to choose between Repeater Crossbowmen and Spearmen for the most part unless you wanted to do a reform (because according to the 6th edition rules they pretty much have to stay at one width). Maybe as a 0-1 choice if your Lord is of a certain kindred/whatever.

I wouldn't use them anyway since I use neither spearmen or crossbowmen, but that is besides the point :)



Executioners, well, tweaked. S5 Elves will killing blow is great, until you remember your striking last. Not good when your an Elf!

I think they are fine for their points cost myself. As long as you get the charge you are okay most of the time (and my large block is led by the noble with Dark Draich so they don't get cut down so quick in prolonged combats since he doesn't strike last). Even without a noble, they do fine. There is no need to screw with them really.



Black Guard. Well, something other than Halberds would be nice, unless of course they are getting tweaked as a weapon for 7th Edition (come on attack in ranks!)

The current models are very nice, so I'd like it if they kept halberds just for that reason. They need something though, I'd like to see a drop in cost or some other ability (re-roll to hit all the time is very nice, as is stubborn, but I think they are overpriced a bit at the moment).


A bit of points drop on Reapers. I appreciate they are rock, and dependable. But 100 points? Isn't that, well, a bit much? A Gobbo Speerchukka is 35! You telling me the increased BS and 6 shot option gobbbles up 65 points?

85 points would be appropriate I think.


And now onto Magic Items.

Right design team. Have a look at our items. Have a good look at them. Until Storm of Chaos came out, our Magic Items were pretty crappy really. Sure, we have a *lot* of Weapons, but for such an allegedly Magical race, our Enchanted and Arcane items are frankly laughable! Either too restrictive in choice, or just plain crap. The Bound Items need to be one SUCCESSFUL use only! Otherwise they are a waste. And sort out the banners. The ones we have (barring Soul Shadow Standard, which is sweet!) are somewhat lacklustre, and smack of a lack of imagination when they were being designed.

I'm a big fan of the Banner of Murder myself. I always take that on a unit of Executioners. It is random, but usually works out pretty good. Only standard out of the army book I use though (not counting the War Banner).

I'd like to see the Banner of Blood put back in, or whatever the "Stop the Stupidity" banner was called. I don't use Cold Ones anyway since I don't like the concept (seems like they stole it from D&D Dark Elves and then forgot that the reason D&D Dark Elves dont use horse mounted knights is because they are underground), but they need to be a bit more reliable for their points. Either that, or bring back the rule where Cold Ones lose stupidity once they have entered combat.

I'd expect the magic item section as a whole to be changed a bit when the book is redone (hopefully including all of the SoC items and altering alot of the existing non-weapon/armor items).

Col. Dash
20-01-2006, 05:41
Cold Ones get rid of stupidity, or at least give the old option of buying a banner that negates the stupidity(the old blood banner).

Dark Riders, they are using machinegun crossbows, give back the old fire and flee rule. All they do is point and spray as they run. With the negatives already given for shooting the crossbow and moving it wouldnt be that drastic a change.

We use machine crossbows, get rid of the move and fire negatives, it is accuracy by fire as it is anyway, plus we have the negative of shooting in the first place. Hell, each elf has been shooting his crossbow for more than a hundred years minimum, you would think in that time they would be better at shooting on the move than BS2 (the -2 modifier for shooting and moving with repeater x-bows). Or as opposed to getting rid of the negatives, bump up the strength of the x-bow to 4 with a -2 save mod. Even though I use them, its extremely rare that a unit of 10 crossbowmen make up their points or even decently contribute to that.

Definately drop the point cost on the reaper. Or come out with themed lists using the kindred type system where city guard and corsair armies get them for cheaper due to the much higher numbers present in such armies.

Ivan Stupidor
20-01-2006, 06:25
We use machine crossbows, get rid of the move and fire negatives, it is accuracy by fire as it is anyway, plus we have the negative of shooting in the first place. Hell, each elf has been shooting his crossbow for more than a hundred years minimum, you would think in that time they would be better at shooting on the move than BS2 (the -2 modifier for shooting and moving with repeater x-bows). Or as opposed to getting rid of the negatives, bump up the strength of the x-bow to 4 with a -2 save mod. Even though I use them, its extremely rare that a unit of 10 crossbowmen make up their points or even decently contribute to that.


So you want Dark Elves with tommyguns? Historically, the repeating crossbow was a fairly inaccurate weapon (it was mostly fired from the hip against tightly massed enemies), used light bolts compared with a proper crossbow (except, of course, for heavier siege versions, which are represented by the Reaper), and was generally poisoned so as to stand a decent chance of actually killing the target. While the Dark Elf version likely makes several improvements over the historical design (some Warriors are shown firing from the shoulder, I believe), I don't think it's quite enough to make them better than handguns. Rapid-firing with a repeating crossbow while moving should be horrendously inaccurate, because that's really not what they're designed for. (Ironically, they were historically mostly defensive weapons, so that they could be stabilized to allow for rapid-fire with some degree of accuracy. Not exactly Dark Elfish.)

Now, allowing Dark Elves with repeating crossbows to upgrade to poisoned shots? That, I could get behind.

A neutral shade of black.
20-01-2006, 08:56
Well, it's time for one of these for my beloved Druchii.

Yay! Wishlists are cool. ;)


As we can tell, every army in Warhammer is on a constant round about of development. And being one of the older lists out there, I reckon it won't be too long (three years tops) before the Dark Elves get their shiny new book. This is just a thread to see what people are hoping for!

That way, they can fix the damn issues with list. And here's to hoping the new one won't need another revision... :rolleyes:


Me, the following...

In the style of the Wood Elf Spites, little gribbly Daemon familiars to offer interesting boosts and that.

No way. This is, as others have pointed out, unique to the Asrai. I wouldn't be opposed to having them, but not something I particularly want in the list (and not something I want to see there).


A Witch Elf character (I mean, come on...please? They used to exist. Now they don't. How the hell am I meant to run a suitably Witch Elf themed army without a decent leader?

Yesssssssss! Except they'll probably give her the assassin's Leadership rule... :/


The return (yes! I mean it!) of the Cityguard. Quite a fantastic little unit. And our Warriors are meant to be a citizen militia.

Agreed.


Executioners, well, tweaked. S5 Elves will killing blow is great, until you remember your striking last. Not good when your an Elf!

Executioners should be S4, really. They used to be and everything in the fluff says they are.


Black Guard. Well, something other than Halberds would be nice, unless of course they are getting tweaked as a weapon for 7th Edition (come on attack in ranks!)

A couple of points reduction or full plate is what I'd rather see - the halberd is a decent weapon, but the BG's chief problem is that they're a tarpit unit that dies in droves...


A bit of points drop on Reapers. I appreciate they are rock, and dependable. But 100 points? Isn't that, well, a bit much? A Gobbo Speerchukka is 35! You telling me the increased BS and 6 shot option gobbbles up 65 points?

65-70 sounds about right. Make it a choice comparable to taking DoW cannons...


And, well, for troops, thats about it. Everything else works beautifully in my opinion!

Let's just prey 7th Ed. doesn't prevent light cav from negating rank bonus and such, as was rumoured not too long ago...


And now onto Magic Items.

Right design team. Have a look at our items. Have a good look at them. Until Storm of Chaos came out, our Magic Items were pretty crappy really. Sure, we have a *lot* of Weapons, but for such an allegedly Magical race, our Enchanted and Arcane items are frankly laughable! Either too restrictive in choice, or just plain crap. The Bound Items need to be one SUCCESSFUL use only! Otherwise they are a waste. And sort out the banners. The ones we have (barring Soul Shadow Standard, which is sweet!) are somewhat lacklustre, and smack of a lack of imagination when they were being designed.

Let's make a quick list of the useful DE items. There's a few of them that I can't really stick in here because of their price, though they're decent.
- Blade of Ruin (everyone has one, and good against knights);
- Crimson Death (not great, but cheap and good on a foot noble in CP; needs a five point reduction to be able to go with Blood Armour);
- Lifetaker (for hunting. Could also be a five points cheaper, to be combinable with Cloak of Dark Souls for a shade character);
- Blood Armour (foot noble or DP-mounted hunter with Lifetaker);
- Black Amulet (good on a throw-away noble who challenges a Chaos Lord in the hopes of making five or six saves);
- Deathmask (woot! for terror)
- Crown of Black Iron (average ward + immune to high magic + co¨binable with GoP = good);
- Seal of Ghrond (duh);
- Black Staff (for the lone L1 or L2 sorceress, or in CP);
- Darkstar Cloak (again, duh);
- Banner of Nagarythe (expensive is an understatement, but it has its purposes. It's also fluffy);
- Hydra Banner (unorthodox block of eight CoK + HB with GoP + BSB with Hydra Banner = one very dead enemy unit);
- Banner of Murder;
- Gauntlet of Power (duh again, and power fists are cool);
- Mystic Shield of Light (kind of redundant with the CoBI. I wouldn't mind seeing this one disappear and something else replacing it);
- Draich of Dark Power (another duh item);
- Heart-stone of Darkness (...again);
- Soul Shadows Standard (...and again);
- Cloak of Dark Souls (scouting sorceresses are fun. Scouting anointed are even funner ;)).

So you see, we're not that badly off. The problem isn't how many quality items we have (okay, our whole enchanted items and armour sections are utter crap), it's what they cost: there are way too few combos we can do. A five point reduction here and there would allow a lot more versatility, character and a bit more power for everyone (especially nobles, since highborns are probably going to keep their current combos unless something major comes about).

What I'd also like to see is more items along the line of the DoDP; that is to say, items that can be use to make "honours" character. Oh, and bring back the Blood Banner (it's the BBtBB movement!).


And gonnae tinker a bit with Dark Magic? I mean, it's okay. Ish. Would be nice to have a single spell that doesn't require LoS!

I think that's one of the defining characteristics of Dark Magic, so no, I think it ought to stay. What I would like to see, however, is an innate spell. I know it's taking away from our individuality, but the dark elves are supposed to be the absolute masters of Dark Magic, just as the Asur are for High Magic, and they get an innate spell.


And an addendum....

I'd like to see the Character leading your army have something similar to virtues and that, which dictate the organisation of the army. Dark Elf Nobility are meant to be quite individual. I'd quite like to see that reflected in their armies. Even just a certain bias based on which city your Highborn or whatever is from!

Honours are a bad idea. The Asur and Asrai already have them. Let's not make the Druchii look even more like a bland elven list, please. So far, the philosophy has been distinction through magic items. I think it would be best if it stayed that way (and yes, I know 50% of our magic items suck).

sigur
21-01-2006, 00:15
Interesting stuff here. I agree on most terms although I think that the Executioners are okay as they are now.

And on this topic of "another bland elven list". Well. We're the evil elves. How come everyone needs his own oh so totally unique list? At the moment, I like the similarities as well as the differences of the HE/DE lists (WE being more of the crazy cousin). I think that DE would lose lots of charms if they started being really different to HE.

Fluffwise, we ARE the antagonists. We look better, have the cooler weapons, cooler looks and hotter girls. With this package also comes the "always close to victory, always fail"-fate. We show up, cause trouble, then some darned kids thwart our cunning, evil plot due to incredible goodie two-shoes luck and a plan that would never really work. But that's the job of us as the evil guys! That's our place in the world. A constant danger, but more of a 2nd class danger compared to Chaos. We have the plan, but the got the power and the dedication to be the real big boss evil. We are Saruman, the Cardassians, ....uhm....Queen Beryl (:eyebrows: )...

Venkh
21-01-2006, 02:03
OK Here goes, I LOVE my Druchii but i always feel that i am handing my opponent an advantage when i use them. This makes winning all the sweeter but Id like to see the list given a bit of a boost. A few suggestions, obviously some are just flights of fancy.

- Shades should have the option to take poison and additional hand weapons.
- Harpies should use generals Ld
- Cold ones should lose stupidity after their first successful charge but then be subject to frenzy.
- Hydra should regenerate
- city guard formation for an extra 1 pt per warrior.
- Corsairs should get the raider rule
- Assassins need a ranged weapon option to be used with the TOK poisons. They should also be able to target any model within LOS.
- Reapers should be 75-85 pts
- Black Guard, full plate or a points reduction

Range of Ring of Hotek should be 12"
Standard of slaughter should be +d3 on first successful charge
Heartseeker needs something, dont know what.

Lores
Dominion needs greater range or no LOS required.
Dark Elf Sorceresses need access to more lores.

*Breathes again

Arnizipal
21-01-2006, 03:04
-Fix/get rid of stupidy for cold ones, I could live with them having the same stupidity rules as they did in 5th edd.
You do realise this means they go back to Ld8 and have a 50% chance of not moving at all when failing a stupidity test? ;)

Drasanil
21-01-2006, 03:07
You do realise this means they go back to Ld8 and have a 50% chance of not moving at all when failing a stupidity test? ;)

Fine by me, atleast they won't be stumbling into infantries' charge range when they fail their stupidity tests:)

Odin
21-01-2006, 09:37
Spites? No, don't think so - that'd be too similar to Asrai. Plus which, they already have the poisons etc. A selection of familiars for Sorceresses might be ok though.

Definitely need a Kindred-type way to choose whether your hero is a Witch Elf/Shade/Assassin etc. Ideally this should also affect how your army selection works in the same way as Asrai Highborn (Eternal Guard count as Core) and Dwarf Slayer Characters (each one allows you an extra slayer unit).

Executioners are supposed to be the way they are. If you get the charge off they're great, if you get charged you'll get massacred - that's pretty much how elves work.

Cold ones should have something like stupidity. Perhaps if Ld9 Stupidity is too harsh, they should have a rule like Orcs' Animosity or the Beastmen's "unruly", i.e. if you roll a 1 you do something instinctive (I guess it could be a table to see whether they act stupid or get bloodlust or something).

What's all this about reducing the price of the Bolt Thrower? Isn't it identical to the High Elf version? In which case it's certainly not too expensive. Those things are EVIL.

I don't think the magic items are all that bad, but yes they do need to be improved, and have a bit more variety added.

GW won't be likely to give any special rules to Dark Riders, they've been getting rid of all the over-the-top extra rules - fast cav are damn good as they are.

Difficult to say what Black Guard need - after all, halberds in general need to be improved. Once they have been, hopefully all halberd units will be worth taking.

Baindread
21-01-2006, 09:57
GW won't be likely to give any special rules to Dark Riders, they've been getting rid of all the over-the-top extra rules - fast cav are damn good as they are.


You mean rules such as fusillade for Pistoliers, choosing light armour makes Goblins wolf riders normal cav, Dire wolves being fast cav and a champion which gets +1 S on charge, Marauder horsemen being able to choose from 4 different kinds of weapons? Yeah, giving Dark Riders special rules is way over-the-top and complicating things. ;)

Mad Doc Grotsnik
21-01-2006, 14:43
Dark Riders, for their points, are still far and away the *best* Fast Cavalry in the game. Granted, they could do with a smidge of a points break on Repeater Crossbows (6 bloody points!) but then, they do have M9, which means they are far more reactive a unit than other Fast Cavalry, and can be a pain in the **** to virtually any part of your opponents line.

Cold Ones and stupidity, well, I make extensive use of Cold Ones in all forms, and have never really had a problem. You kind of expect it after a while! But yeah, I like the idea of them being unpredictable, rather than dumb!

Hydras....regenerate....hell yeah! I can go for that!

chivalrous
22-01-2006, 20:26
In the style of the Wood Elf Spites, little gribbly Daemon familiars to offer interesting boosts and that.
And despite the many posts to the contrary, the Dark Elves have these in multitude, just look at all the little buggers swarming all over the art work in the books.
That said, I'm still against them as the fluff only suppotrs their use by Sorceresses and I for one think the Arcane section is pretty damn good as it stands. What would even more sorceress only items add?



The return (yes! I mean it!) of the Cityguard. Quite a fantastic little unit. And our Warriors are meant to be a citizen militia.

Citizen militia will not be as thoroughly trained or drilled as the city garrison though. You just have to look at the differences between Empire State troops and militia for a comparison.
The city Guard will be full time warriors while the militia are the part timers, who spend their weekdays going about their 'normal' lives and 30 weekends a year running about the countryside with spears and crossbows.

I like city guard but they should stay as part of a/the City Garrison army list.



Executioners, well, tweaked. S5 Elves will killing blow is great, until you remember your striking last. Not good when your an Elf!

But what would you add?
If the rules for Great weapons go back to the 5th edition rules of "always strike last, even on the charge" then I'd like to say they still get strike first on the charge.
I think with their reputation (in the fluff at least) executioners should possibly cause fear.
Executioners are possibly my favourite unit and the unit I'd least like to change, mainly because I like only having to pay 11 points for a S5 unit with killing blow.


Black Guard. Well, something other than Halberds would be nice, unless of course they are getting tweaked as a weapon for 7th Edition (come on attack in ranks!)
Plate Armour. that's all I'd like to see. Any more would raise their points to more than anyone would be willing to pay and make them far too powerful.
Extra strength? that would make them S5 which doesn't seem like a lot until you factor in their re-roll to hit every round.


A bit of points drop on Reapers. I appreciate they are rock, and dependable.
Maybe. No less than 85 points each though.


And, well, for troops, thats about it. Everything else works beautifully in my opinion!

NOT FOR ME! what I'd really like, more than Plate armour for Black Guard, more than a useable enchanted item section, more than a Witch Elf champion (oh yes even more than that)

I want a Crossbowman unit champion with +1 ballistic skill instead of the +1 attack he has to take. I'll still happily pay 10 points for the privilige even though other races pay +5.


- Harpies should use generals Ld
- Cold ones should lose stupidity after their first successful charge but then be subject to frenzy.
Harpies use generals Ld, no, I don't see them responding much to the orders barked by a Noble of Highborn. Harpies using a Beast masters Ld on the otherhand could be explained and give a player a reason to take a beastmaster (beyond being able to take an extra Manticore)
-Cold Ones, That's quite good actually but I'll say that after they successfully charge and cause unsaved wounds. they have to taste the blood afterall.


Right design team. Have a look at our items. Have a good look at them. Until Storm of Chaos came out, our Magic Items were pretty crappy really.

Apart from the Dark sword, the weapons are all reasonably good if a bit ordinary in some cases.

In reply to Aneutralshadeofblack I think one of the reasons some items are priced as they are is to prevent some of the much more powerful item combinations.

I'd just like to see the enchanted items list expanded. Bound spells aren't reliable enough unless you're going magic heavy or know you're facing a magic 'lite' army.


And gonnae tinker a bit with Dark Magic? I mean, it's okay. Ish. Would be nice to have a single spell that doesn't require LoS!
Soul Stealer:p



What I would like to see, however, is an innate spell. I know it's taking away from our individuality, but the dark elves are supposed to be the absolute masters of Dark Magic, just as the Asur are for High Magic, and they get an innate spell.
Too true. There are some who say that Dark Elf magic phases aren't effective enough, that it's a rare sigh for an army with light or medium magic to get a spell off.

Remember Power of Chaos from the old spell deck, if successfully cast you rolled a D6 and got 1:-sucked into the realm of chaos and never seen again, 2-5:-D3 winds of magic cards, 6:-D6 winds of magic cards.
I want it back.

I'd like to see the Character leading your army have something similar to virtues and that, which dictate the organisation of the army. Dark Elf Nobility are meant to be quite individual. I'd quite like to see that reflected in their armies. Even just a certain bias based on which city your Highborn or whatever is from!

Going back to city guard, this is the only way I'd see them as being part of the list i.e/ by having a Garrison commander 'virtue'.
Other characters for a Raiding Army, Watchtower army, Khaine army and Naggarond (Black Guard) army.

chivalrous
22-01-2006, 20:27
Dark Riders, for their points, are still far and away the *best* Fast Cavalry in the game. Granted, they could do with a smidge of a points break on Repeater Crossbows (6 bloody points!) but then, they do have M9, which means they are far more reactive a unit than other Fast Cavalry, and can be a pain in the **** to virtually any part of your opponents line.

Cold Ones and stupidity, well, I make extensive use of Cold Ones in all forms, and have never really had a problem. You kind of expect it after a while! But yeah, I like the idea of them being unpredictable, rather than dumb!

Hydras....regenerate....hell yeah! I can go for that!

Even if it the final creature cost you 300 points and 2 rare slots....actually that's appealing to me too

A neutral shade of black.
22-01-2006, 20:51
I want a Crossbowman unit champion with +1 ballistic skill instead of the +1 attack he has to take. I'll still happily pay 10 points for the privilige even though other races pay +5.

That would make the militia into two unit entries, which isn't something we want - it doesn't make sense from either a fluff point of view or a spacial organisation one.



Harpies using a Beast masters Ld on the otherhand could be explained and give a player a reason to take a beastmaster (beyond being able to take an extra Manticore)

That and they should really make stupidity rolls fall into the beast reaction category - then everyone would try to get a beastmaster. That would mean being able to reroll all stupidity tests within 12" of him, making him a viable choice.


-Cold Ones, That's quite good actually but I'll say that after they successfully charge and cause unsaved wounds. they have to taste the blood afterall.

Like back in the old days - after the first wound cause, they lost the stupidity and got excited to the point of frenzying.


Apart from the Dark sword, the weapons are all reasonably good if a bit ordinary in some cases.

Not really. About half of them are too expensive to be used or too useless. Just look at our collection of "mundane" magical swords: frost blade, dark sword, blade of spite...


In reply to Aneutralshadeofblack I think one of the reasons some items are priced as they are is to prevent some of the much more powerful item combinations.

And that's exactly the reason I'd like to see them changed. I don't mind a minor loss of efficieny if I can combine items in such a way that my character can be fielded as an executioner, black guard or Temple hero. The Druchii also need serious buffing up to be able to go toe-to-toe with the likes of Chaos, lizardmen and other Bretonnian and skaven lists...


I'd just like to see the enchanted items list expanded. Bound spells aren't reliable enough unless you're going magic heavy or know you're facing a magic 'lite' army.

Expanded? Not necessarily. Just no longer redundant would be nice.

Anyway, I still think virtues/honours/kindreds are unfluffy as hell for dark elves.

Strictly Commercial
23-01-2006, 01:55
I hope they redo the cold ones. Some people like the ones they already have, but I think they look cartoonish.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
23-01-2006, 12:56
Hmmm..rather than a banner for *cancelling* out Cold One Stupidity, could a Beast Master not be allowed some kind of influence on them, like a re-roll or something? After all, if they can 'tame' a Manticore or War Hydra, I'm pretty sure they know the best ways to encourage a Cold One to obey! Two problems tackled in one there!

I'd also like to see a return to the older Beastmasters, when they could lead packs of hounds and that. Not particular fluff reason, but I like the idea of it. Or perhaps some rule for Slaves, that would be cool!

A neutral shade of black.
23-01-2006, 13:05
That and they should really make stupidity rolls fall into the beast reaction category - then everyone would try to get a beastmaster. That would mean being able to reroll all stupidity tests within 12" of him, making him a viable choice.

Already on my wishlist... :P

Gotreksbrother
23-01-2006, 17:05
The Dark Elves have really nice background material potential and some of the most beautiful minis in the game (except for Harpies, the Hydra and the Cold One mounts) and I do wish they could give the list more character by implementing a few changes...

1. Lords: Give them an Honour system to represent different professions/Households/Castes (Khaine vs CoP)

2. Make the Sea Dragon Cloak a piece of equipment only obtainable by a character with an Honour/profession attached to the Corsairs, I find it wierd that all Highborns and nobles would be able to get one, as they are a mark that identifies the Corsairs and the Dark Elf fleet Captains

3. Make Cold Ones a rare mount available for heroes only if they get a special Honour or ability...Cold One Knights are supposed to be elite Knights that sacrifice their sense of taste and smell so as to ride the Cold Ones...not every one should have access to them. At the same time remove their stupidity rule and replace it with an new rule.

Bloodscent= The Character/Unit on Cold Ones must take a Ld test at the start of the turn if able to charge an enemy unit and they havent fought in close combat before. If they fail they must declare a charge against the enemy unit. Once the unit has fought a close combat once, this rule ceases to apply for the remainder of the battle to said character/unit.


Lord Choices

Make a Lord choice for the Cult of Khaine:

High Priestess of Khaine (costs 140 pts): stats like a Highborn but with -2 BS, +1 I.
Options: Can wear Light armour, use an additional hand weapon.

Magic allowance/TofK abilities: Up to 100 points.

Can only be on foot.

Can take a Cauldron of Blood to battle for 175 points (this uses up an extra Hero choice).This would remove the CofB from the Rare choices and make it more like Anvil of Doom/Casket of Souls, but now protected by a more powerful character and not 3 very easily killed Witch Elves.

Special Rules: Sect Enmity, Frenzy, Beloved of Khaine

Beloved of Khaine: Witch Elves become Core Units, but you must have one unit of Warriors for each unit of Witch Elves.

Heroes

Beastmasters should be an Honour upgrade for a Noble (costing 80 points) with the following extra rules:

Can only use Light Armour, Spear, Additional Hand Weapon, Sea Dragon Cloak.

Can ride Dark Steed, Cold One, Manticore (uses additional Hero choice), Black Dragon (uses two additional Hero choices, only in games of 3000+)

Magic allowance: up to 50 points (no ranged weapons or magic Heavy Armour allowed).

Special Rules: Beastmaster

Beastmaster: If the Beastmaster is included all cold ones in the army will not be subject to the Bloodscent rule.

Assassins should be able to take repeater crossbows and throwing knives. And they should cost 90 points

Core Units

Dark Riders should get rep crossbows for 3pts per model

Corsairs should be one unit per unitof warriors unless your army has a character with a Corsair Honour making them normal core choice.


Special Units

(Cold One) Chariots: They should be pulled by Elven Steeds and get the option of upgrading their steeds to Cold Ones for 15 pts. Cold Ones are not this common in Naggaroth and I find it very wierd that only a few hundred years ago only the Witch King himself rode in one and now they are standard use :rolleyes:

(Cold One) Knights: They should come with Barded Elven Steeds (decrease points by 3 per model) and get the option for Cold Ones as an upgrade at 4 pts per model. It would make the miniatures look even better and make Dark Elf armies look more like the evil counterparts of the Asur instead of suddenly being a whole new army with lots of wierd distasteful monsters...it seems as if the Dark elves moved to Naggaroth and elven steeds suddenly became rare while cold ones became common mounts...makes little sense...

Harpies: Id like some new minis and make them Cause Fear on the charge (make them cost 3 more points a piece), that would solve many of their current problems.

Rare Units

War Hydra: Get Regeneration for 20/30 points

Black Guard: Give them Ornamental Armour (full plate) and make them cost 14 pts each. In the new Dwarf book elite infantry like Hammerers got their cost reduced even though their abilities were increased, so as to make them more attractive, and though they are very good compared to most infantry they die very easily and still take up a valuable rare slot...

well...Im beat...

cheers...

Arnizipal
23-01-2006, 19:52
I hope they redo the cold ones. Some people like the ones they already have, but I think they look cartoonish.
IMHO they look better than those weird velociraptors ever did.


2. Make the Sea Dragon Cloak a piece of equipment only obtainable by a character with an Honour/profession attached to the Corsairs, I find it wierd that all Highborns and nobles would be able to get one, as they are a mark that identifies the Corsairs and the Dark Elf fleet Captains

Technically, the Dark Elves are a race of raiders, and those that are seen most commenly are the ones sailing the seas. So the Sark Elf characters you'd most often run into are captains of the Black Arks.


3. Make Cold Ones a rare mount available for heroes only if they get a special Honour or ability...Cold One Knights are supposed to be elite Knights that sacrifice their sense of taste and smell so as to ride the Cold Ones...not every one should have access to them. At the same time remove their stupidity rule and replace it with an new rule.

With that reasoning all characters riding any kind of monster should pay extra points to be able to ride it. After all mosters are rare and it takes a good while to break a monster's will to accept a rider.



Corsairs should be one unit per unitof warriors unless your army has a character with a Corsair Honour making them normal core choice.

Dark Elves have few core choices as it is, you want to limit that even more?


(Cold One) Chariots: They should be pulled by Elven Steeds and get the option of upgrading their steeds to Cold Ones for 15 pts. Cold Ones are not this common in Naggaroth and I find it very wierd that only a few hundred years ago only the Witch King himself rode in one and now they are standard use :rolleyes:

The beastmaster probably got a breeding program going.


(Cold One) Knights: They should come with Barded Elven Steeds (decrease points by 3 per model) and get the option for Cold Ones as an upgrade at 4 pts per model. It would make the miniatures look even better and make Dark Elf armies look more like the evil counterparts of the Asur instead of suddenly being a whole new army with lots of wierd distasteful monsters...it seems as if the Dark elves moved to Naggaroth and elven steeds suddenly became rare while cold ones became common mounts...makes little sense...

Dark Elves prefer the sheer power of the cold ones over the gracefulness of the dark steed. It's as simple as that.



Harpies: Id like some new minis and make them Cause Fear on the charge (make them cost 3 more points a piece), that would solve many of their current problems.

There's nothing wrong with the harpy models. They look like a mix between woman and beast, which is a lot better than the single-pose mutated monstrosity they were in 5th edition.

Hlokk
23-01-2006, 20:57
I know this goes against the ethic of the DE army, but what about units of slaves? Allow the army to field massive units of slaves ala gnoblars. really crap stats, and a chance of them rebelling. These could be really nice if their done properly. Also allow DE to shoot this unit in combat in the style of the skaven.

sigur
23-01-2006, 22:11
The idea of using dirt cheap slave units has been discussed some times and I'm still not a big fan of it. Of course I get the point of this idea and fluffwise it's justifyable but something still feels wrong about such a unit in an elven army.

On the topic of removing Cold One Stupidity - I wouldn't like it to be removed. It's a nice, characterful special rule. But something should be done about it. How about using the same Cold One rules as for Lizardmen, I'm talking about "cold blooded".

Mad Doc Grotsnik
24-01-2006, 22:09
Sorry, but Harpies are absolutely spot on. Cheap, cheerful, and far too often utterly ignored by the enemy. They are actually quite pokey in combat, at least, thats my experience. Those two attacks each, and flying, means they ought to be dishing out the damage first. Pick on lone characters (as long as they are poorly armoured!) and Artillery crews. 6 cost 78 points. Take out a single Cannon, and they have more than paid for themselves. Duff up a Mage, and your absolutely quids in!

Gotreksbrother
24-01-2006, 23:28
Sorry, but Harpies are absolutely spot on. Cheap, cheerful, and far too often utterly ignored by the enemy. They are actually quite pokey in combat, at least, thats my experience. Those two attacks each, and flying, means they ought to be dishing out the damage first. Pick on lone characters (as long as they are poorly armoured!) and Artillery crews. 6 cost 78 points. Take out a single Cannon, and they have more than paid for themselves. Duff up a Mage, and your absolutely quids in!

except they dont do anything vs Ogre Kingdoms, deamonic legion, Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings do to Fear and their LD 6...and against Brets (only 1 warmachine, and mages hide inside Knight units) and Lizardmen (shamans go with skink skirmishers that can shoot harpies to pieces before they ever hit home...or salamders that can chew harpies easily) they are of little use as well...

Their best use are against other elves (vulnerable mages and warmachines-High elves- or vulnerable charachters and small soft units - Wood Elves), empire (like high elves) and sometimes dwarves (though with the new warmachine rules for dwarves they arent that good against dwarves either)...

by putting in the simple but effective cause fear on the charge and that combat phase (but not during subsequent rounds) they only have problems with lizzies and brets...this wont overpower themin any way, they still have to compete with a lot of very good special choices and they will rarely chew through anything on the charge with two S3 attacks each at WS3...

cheers, paddy

Mad Doc Grotsnik
25-01-2006, 19:14
Sorry, but the point still stands. They are a 13 point a piece, skirmishing, flying unit. Whats not to like?

They sure are pretty useless against Ogres and that. Thats why I don't tend to use them, other than hopping over to the rear, spreading out as far as possible, and blocking march moves.

Brets? That Trebuchet costs more than they do. They will mince it. I fail to see the problem.

Lizardmen. Again, bloody useful for blocking March moves. And in theory, the skinks could shoot you. But -3 to hit means they are hitting on 7+, which means I have hit home every time, causing a massive splutchy mess.

Harpies have other uses. Broken a unit with Terror/Panic? Charge it with Harpies. That 78 point unit has just caught them. *Massive* amount of VPs, rather embarassed looking opponent.

I love Harpies me! If I could have two units, I bloody well would!

sulla
25-01-2006, 20:15
I love Harpies me! If I could have two units, I bloody well would!

My biggest gripes with harpies are more philosophical than actual. It pisses me off that while they can't use army leadership, they can cause panic in my army. Why? They are not even part of it... just camp followers.

But I agree with your last statement... i would take 2 if I could, rather than one... especially since they are virtually garaunteed not to rally if they ever flee...:cries:

Mad Doc Grotsnik
29-01-2006, 13:46
Well, this is blatant good fortune, but my Harpies have *never* quit the field. Every time I have used them, they have wreaked absolute havoc. Well, in comparrison to their tiddly points costings.

But you do raise a fair point about them causing panic. However, it could be argued, from a purely fluff point of view, that as sacred creatures (it is widely believe they are the souls of fallen Witch Elves, and thus, servants of Khaine) that to see them flee can be taken as an ill omen, just as the Harpies over the field is considerd a good omen.