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Knightmare
20-01-2006, 09:25
I know that GW has tackled Pre-Heresy TDA,it's rarity and base uses.The same goes for Jump Packs for assault squads.But has there been any mention of the Legions using Scouts(and obviously Scout Armour)during the Great Crusade and/or during the Horus Heresy?Or were Scouts only implemented with the creation of the Codex Astartes?

sulla
20-01-2006, 21:46
There are World Eater scouts in HH vol III. No info is given on them, but they're there...

odmiller
20-01-2006, 21:51
There are scouts in all the HH books I believe. Some in modified power armor, some in carapace.

malika
20-01-2006, 22:58
Hmm its something that has arrived with the later background that Scout Armour became available before the Horus Heresy...call it artistical freedom or new fluff.

Scouts (either in power armour or scout armour...debatable) were used before and after the Horus Heresy, however before the Heresy new recruits probably werent used as Scout, this is something that happened after the Heresy with the exception of the Space Wolves.

Knightmare
21-01-2006, 01:05
however before the Heresy new recruits probably werent used as Scout.

I wondered about that.I assume before the Codex Astartes that Scouts were merely standard Battle-Brothers as opposed to Initiates?

Anybody have a link to these HH scout images?

Scorpio
21-01-2006, 02:13
sorry but i do know that scouts were used before the heresy. i cant offer much more then that:( :cries:

Nazguire
21-01-2006, 07:43
It probably depended, once again, upon the Legion they were a part of. For example, the World Eaters Primarch Angron, was originally a gladiator on his homeworld. So obviously he will have a strong martial code and high expectations upon his recruits, so Scouts in a form that is more or less akin to the Scouts after the Heresy is expected.

Other Legions appear to have Recon Squads, which are simply Space Marines with reconnasiance equipment (long range communication gear for example).

Kradle
22-01-2006, 08:03
I think Nazguire has got it pretty much down!

Sorry I couldnt be of more help..

Kradle

Kage2020
22-01-2006, 13:21
And the real question is in the nature of the Scouts in the first place. But there we go.

Kage

malika
22-01-2006, 13:23
What do you exactly mean by this?

Kage2020
22-01-2006, 13:38
What are 'scouts' in the 'fluff', and how does this tie into their use or plausible uses. Beyond 'tradition', of course.

Kage

vforvenator
22-01-2006, 13:55
I often imagined the old Assault Marines of Khorne (http://www.solegends.com/citcat9x4/c93493-02.htm) to have been the World Eaters' ex-Scouts. Their apparent fast attack tactics, lack of distinguishing fluff and sparse armour would fit very well.

Nazguire
23-01-2006, 10:44
What are 'scouts' in the 'fluff', and how does this tie into their use or plausible uses. Beyond 'tradition', of course.

Kage

Well in the background they are the recruits..they don't serve any real purpose, at least not one that the Marines couldn't do and better. I think they are trying to prove themselves in the ideals of the Chapter, then I believe that they are skill wise (though that would be an important factor)

malika
23-01-2006, 17:58
The time they are Scouts could be seen as some sort of test. I mean Space Marines are able to infiltrate with full power armour (Chaos Space Marine veterans seem to be able to do this, so why not pre heresy Loyalists?). However the Scouts dont have their Black Carapace yet so they are not able to wear Power Armour, hence they wear Scout Armour. They are sent on Scout/infiltration missions as some sort of test. I think that the time an almost Space Marine spends as a Scout is like trail time to see if he is good enough for the Chapter, here the Chapter's officers can determine if a marine is good enough to be promoted into the reserve companies, however Im curious what would happen to a marine who isnt good enough to be promoted to those companies, would he remain a Scout? Perhaps become a Scout officer?

Destecado
23-01-2006, 21:44
The time they are Scouts could be seen as some sort of test. I mean Space Marines are able to infiltrate with full power armour (Chaos Space Marine veterans seem to be able to do this, so why not pre heresy Loyalists?).

While it is technically true that Chaos Veterans and, with the new Space Marine Codex, Loyalist Chapters that take the trait "See But Don't Be Seen" can infiltrate, they still are not a match for a scout. These units may gain the infiltrate ability (at an added cost), but they still do not benefit from the "Scout" special rule and do not obtain the scout special ability, "Move Through Cover".


However the Scouts dont have their Black Carapace yet so they are not able to wear Power Armour, hence they wear Scout Armour. They are sent on Scout/infiltration missions as some sort of test. I think that the time an almost Space Marine spends as a Scout is like trail time to see if he is good enough for the Chapter

Testing a marine's ability to cut the mustard by having him infiltrate behind enemy lines seems a little sketchy to me. What if he is found wanting? he not only puts his own life, but the life of the rest of his squad and probably other squads relying on the scouts to complete their mission in jeopardy. No commander worth his rank would do that. the reserve companies are a perfect place to allow these newly created marines to cut their teeth.


Im curious what would happen to a marine who isnt good enough to be promoted to those companies, would he remain a Scout? Perhaps become a Scout officer?

If he isn't good enough, he would never have be made a marine. As to officers within the Scouts..a sergeant can be upgraded to a veteran sergeant, which means he has terminator honors. would such an honor be bestowed upon one who is not a full fledged marine? He can also take wargear from the Space Marine Armory, including armor, which seems to indicate that the sergeants at least have Black Carapace.


Scouts are not green troopers just learning how to fight. They are highly trained well equiped soldires who trade off heavy armor for the ability to manuver behind enemy lines. If you want an example of a group that would be a good model for Space Marine scouts, then consider the Marine Force Recon of the USMC. Another example would be the Special Air Service of the British Airforce. Their clandestine missions during the Falklands War allowed the British forces advance warning of an flights by the Argentinian air force...(They snuck in and were sitting at the end of the Argentinian runways).

Still another example would be the Pathfnders of the D-Day landings. These were units that were dropped into occupied France in advance of the D-Day landing, to mark out landing sights for the gliders and to disrupt German communications to give the landing a fighting chance at the beachheads.

Are these jobs you would really want to trust to an untrained novice?

malika
23-01-2006, 22:00
While it is technically true that Chaos Veterans and, with the new Space Marine Codex, Loyalist Chapters that take the trait "See But Don't Be Seen" can infiltrate, they still are not a match for a scout. These units may gain the infiltrate ability (at an added cost), but they still do not benefit from the "Scout" special rule and do not obtain the scout special ability, "Move Through Cover".
Well it is known that the wargame hardly reflects the background. A Space Marine in power armour with a camo scheme could infiltrate just as well right? I mean the Black Carapace makes sure he can move as if he wasnt wearing any armour.


Scouts are not green troopers just learning how to fight. They are highly trained well equiped soldires who trade off heavy armor for the ability to manuver behind enemy lines. If you want an example of a group that would be a good model for Space Marine scouts, then consider the Marine Force Recon of the USMC. Another example would be the Special Air Service of the British Airforce. Their clandestine missions during the Falklands War allowed the British forces advance warning of an flights by the Argentinian air force...(They snuck in and were sitting at the end of the Argentinian runways).

GW has stated in the past and also now IIRC that the Scouts are part of the 10th company which are Marines who are basicly rookies, they have just been turned into Space Marines. The Space Wolves seem to the be exception to this since their scouts are more like the version of the Space Marine Scout you described, but then more savage. However this is an exception. This is probable one of those GW "rule of cool" things that doesnt make sense but sounds cool. This means that we have to redefine the Scouts as well I guess...

Kage2020
23-01-2006, 22:28
So the current Revisionist policy of GW is to have Scouts as just 'rookie Marines'. All these twoddle about not having the Black Carapace is just, well, stupid? Or is that another oversight?

Kage

sulla
23-01-2006, 22:38
So the current Revisionist policy of GW is to have Scouts as just 'rookie Marines'. All these twoddle about not having the Black Carapace is just, well, stupid? Or is that another oversight?

Kage

Well, they've never bothered to develop a fluff reason why scout armour has benefits over power armour in some situations. Clearly, the game now allows power armoured marines to sneak just as efficiently as scouts, so that can't be the reason.

Personally, i favour the increased maintenance requirements of power armour as a reason why it is not suitable for extended recon missions (as well as the weight not always being appropriate - marshlands etc) but there has never been any fluff indicating power armour needs any maintenance as far as I know...

Sulla

malika
23-01-2006, 22:41
So the current Revisionist policy of GW is to have Scouts as just 'rookie Marines'. All these twoddle about not having the Black Carapace is just, well, stupid? Or is that another oversight?

Kage

IIRC this has been going on since the 2nd edition or the early 3rd edition. Relatively old I would say...

Perhaps the Scout Armour should be seriously compared to the Power Armour and not just in the games rules of "yeah power armour has a better save". I mean Marines can move in Power Armour as if they werent wearing anything due to the Black Carapace, so why is Scout Armour more functional?

Kage2020
24-01-2006, 01:51
Actually, sulla, that is a remarkably simple solution to the problem. Ignore the comment about the Black Carapace since it is relatively meaningless and merely have a more functional reason. I like it. I'm convinced... ;)

Kage

Nazguire
24-01-2006, 01:52
IIRC this has been going on since the 2nd edition or the early 3rd edition. Relatively old I would say...

Perhaps the Scout Armour should be seriously compared to the Power Armour and not just in the games rules of "yeah power armour has a better save". I mean Marines can move in Power Armour as if they werent wearing anything due to the Black Carapace, so why is Scout Armour more functional?

Scout armour would be lighter and quieter than several tons of brightly coloured armour plate.

malika
24-01-2006, 11:34
However the Black Carapace makes sure that a Marine could move in Power Armour as if he isnt wearing any. IIRC the Power Armour also doesnt make sounds. Besides Power Armour can be painted in camo colours...

Destecado
24-01-2006, 12:56
All right, let us asume that power armor makes know sounds, and as you have ndicated, can be painted in camo color schemes (which was actualy quite common in the rogue trader era. There are a couple of factors that make may make carapace armor desirable over space marine armor.

The first would be weight. I know that the suit may seem weightless to a marine wearing it, but it still has a certain amount of mass. As has already been mentioned, weight may be an important factor when moving through terrain such as swamps. It also would be a factor when trying to take up a sniper position in a bombed out or half ruined building.

The wargame does not give weight true consideration, but in an RPG, this becomes an important factor. In a recent game of Cyberpunk that I take part in, one of the heavily cybered solos was chasing someone through an abandoned building. There were weak spots in the floors rated for only a certain amount of weight. the heavily cybered solo weighed about three times what a normal person would (due to cyberwear and other augments). While he was chasing the person, he went right through the floor). Someone who had not been as heavily armored and augmented may have been able to traverse the weakened floor without such a mishap.

A second factor would be flexibility. Again, the power armor may seem to weigh nothing to the marine, but it does have a certain bulk to it and does restrict some of the natural range of motion. A scout trades off the heavier armor to be abe to worm through areas that someone in power armor wouldnot be able to access. Imagine a Marine trying to fit down a manhole to access a sewer system. A suit of power armor would not be able to fit down a standard size manhole, however a scout in carapace armor would have a reasonable chance.

A third factor previously mentioned by Sulla was maintenance. there is actually some fluff that indicates that the power armor must be maintained. Part of a Space Marine's daily rituals, as described on the games workshop website, (click here (http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/rituals/1/)) include maintenance rituals for their armor and weapons.

For protracted action behind enemy lines, carapace armor would require less maintenance than normal space marine armor. As a historical example, the M-16 that saw action early in the Vietnam War was pruported to be almost completely maintenance free. It was only after they started jamming in the middle of shoot outs (costing the lives of soldires) that soldires were issued
cleaning kits for their weapons.

I'm not saying that this is the case with power armor. I am only trying to say that marines being sent into a dangerous action behind enemy lines would probably want to take equipment that they could rely upon almost 100%. Carapace armor may not offer the same protection as power armor, but it also won't break down on you like a suit of power armor can. A suit of power armor stuck in the mud or or siezed up with frozen actuators does a marine little good.

My last point sort of goes hand in hand with maintenance; repair. f scouts are operating behind enemy lines, before a battle actually commences, they will most likely be operating well beyond their lines of supply. If they were to get into a fire fight with the enemy and have their armor damaged in the process, a suit of carapace armor would be easier to repair in the field then would a suit of power armor.

Again, I am drawing somewhat on my experience playing cyberpunk. Armored clothing up to and including metalgear (which would be analoguos to carapace armor can be repaired in the field by using specially designed patches. PA (power armored) suits or specializedcombat borg bodies can not be as readily repaired in the field. These suits use special composit armors that require a skilled technician and specialized tools. If you were to actually pierce the armor of one of these suits the actuators and other equipment underneath are even more difficult and costly to repair (at least in the field).

Sai-Lauren
24-01-2006, 13:24
IMO, Scout armour is easier to maintain in the field, is lighter and quieter, has less thermal and EM signature (all it really needs to do is maintain the bio-support systems for the marine - which of course needs the black carapace plugs ;)), so is more difficult to pick up, is smaller so they can ship more equipment with them in the same sized drop pod/submersible/other insertion vehicle, or is easier to disguise if they can sneak the scouts in through more conventional methods ("Do you have anything to declare?" "Yes, I'm Scout Trooper Harris of the Ultramarines and I've come to blow up the planetary defences before the rest of my bothers arrive to depose the corrupt governor.... Damn, probably shouldn't have said that!":D )

Of course, rule of cool has them as the newbies, trying to survive long enough to earn their power armour, whilst the wolf scouts are far more like what they should be IMO, marines who've displayed a particular affinity for covert and commando operations, operating outside of command structures, facilitating the chapters objectives by destroying strategic locations (defence turrets to facilitate orbital assaults), or preventing their destruction (they might need to stop a bridge being destroyed so the chapters armour can get across, or operating inside their own lines to eliminate enemy guerrila cells for example).

CrimsonTider
24-01-2006, 14:30
I had always thought that pre-heresy scouts existed and they used scout armor, but that they were veterans, much like the Wolves use now. Pre-heresy, they turned men into marines willy-nilly, then with a bit of training they threw them into combat to fulfill their required roles. This was a bit of the roblem when it came to the heresy, since no one had bothered to "check" the new recruits. It would have been like it was with the Dark Angels. Story had it that the Emperor discovered lion El Johnson on Caliban, and Johnson and his whole retinue of followers (hundreds of them, maybe even thousands) joined the Dark Angels immediately. All of Johnsons followers became marines right away. No mention of a scout period, try-outs, etc...

After the heresy, the codex was written, specifiying the scout role as a further means of weeding out the recruits that could not cut it as a marine. The scouts have the full capability of a marine, but is not issued the armor, nor are they considered main battle troops. They are fully trained, and are led by a scout sgt, a marine who is rotated back into the scouts to lead and train them for the day they can be full battle brothers in power armor, if they survive their stint int he scouts, and prove themselves worthy.

The Judge
24-01-2006, 14:34
I'd always imagined that the scouts were merely scouting elements of the Chapter, rather than the new recruits, wearing modified power armour or carapace. I think if I was going to convert them I'd take a normal marine without a backpack or shoulder pads, and a bare head of course.

I imagine the Space Wolf system is very similar to as it was then

CrimsonTider
24-01-2006, 14:59
Thats exactly what I thought as well. The wolves are infamous for turning their backs on the codex and saying "We have always done it this way, it ain't broke, so why fix it?" So most probably, the wolf way is the way it was done before the heresy. Esapecially since you see NO scouts amongst the chaos marines, but plenty of infiltrators.

malika
24-01-2006, 15:06
Its a shame GW wasnt too clear on Scout Armour, but Chaos Space Marines in scout armour might be very interesting. I could definately see the Alpha Legion doing this.

Brothergrimm
24-01-2006, 17:11
Space wolve scouts are loners griped by the spirit of the lone wolve or some such drivel.

Pre hersay there was no need to recriut littel boys to be space marine so scouts or recon squads were most likely very differnt then scout squads of today.

Tynesh
24-01-2006, 20:36
This is something I posted recently on the ASP forums. Some of it isn't relevent after what I have just read here. It would be great if some people can give some feedback and suggestions on where this needs to lead to make a better interpretation of "Scouts" and their function.


Scouts
Bascially a 'scout' in a round-about interpretation that I am making up is as follows...

A scout is a marine who has recieved all the major implants, up to but not including the Black Carapace. Therefore they may be around 18 yrs old or slightly younger. They are still undergoing the treatments of hypnotherapy, psycho-conditioning and chemo that is turning them into marines and allowing them to utilise their implants fully.

Some of them may well have already recieved their Black Carapace, but (chapter depending) may not have 'been promoted' or reached the required level to be moved to a reserve company. It is likely that these individuals may even be recieving training in the use and controlling the function of their PA. Even with an implant it would be difficult for a scout to immeadiatley control and understand the movements required to battle in full PA.

In the scout company all the scouts learn basic training with Astartes Weapons. Those that display a high level of skill may take further training with combat weapons, bikes or heavy weapons. This is generally the start of their training for specific battle roles (Assault, Devastator, Bike etc.) Otherwise they will begin training with a shotgun before progressing on to a bolter. They will learn numerous maneouvers and tactics, as well as scouting and infiltration that suits the equipment they wear. Some may also begin being trained as sergeants. (NOT veteran sergeants however)

The company also includes Neophytes and Aspirants.

Neophytes are those boys already undergoing the transformation into a marines. They will very greatly in age from 12-18 and have different stages of implantations. These will not be fielded in battle as it is too much of a risk to the chapters geneseed as it has not yet matured fully to be harvested (unlike in many full Scouts).

Aspirants are new inductees into the chapter and have yet to being their transformation. They may however still be subject to drills and training to prepare themselves for their future and to assess further the lengths of their abilities. They may also be assessed for taint and corruption at this time by Librarians and Apothecaries.

It may be prudent to suggest that scouts may well be much older than the 18yrs I have suggested above. Some may well have their Black Carapace but have not been elevated to a reserve company yet. I agree with the problems of having ill-prepared troops trying to assist a battle formation is a problem.

Scout armour would definitely be more useful that Power Armour for Infiltration Missions. Also consider that it is much more manouverable that PA, it is lighter, quieter (most definitely: I can't see 1/2 tonne of moving part being so quiet), requires less maintenance. Most of this has been mentioned above before.

Sure some Veterans return to the 10th Co as Veteran Sergeants and the Command Staff, they wear scout armour etc. But scouts won't become veterans this way!

Cheers

Tynesh

Kage2020
24-01-2006, 21:18
I know that the suit may seem weightless to a marine wearing it, but it still has a certain amount of mass.
To my knowledge, there are only two currently guestimated weights for Marines out there: mine and that of Philip Sibbering. For the current version with the low armour value to keep it consistent with the wargame (i.e. so that they can be generically penetrated by lasguns rather than requiring specifically targetted locations), the weight of my Marine runs at around 300lb, give or take (and more likely give by around +50lbs). The armour itself weighs another 600 lbs. Philip Sibbering, I believe, has a Marine that weighs 1,200 lbs and, erm, I cannot remember a figure for the armour. I shall assume that it is somewhere in the realms of 600 lbs as well (i.e. consistent with the 250kg that the 'fluff' has mentioned, IIRC).

Just for the purposes of discussion. As you can see, there is a significant difference between the two and it is for this reason that I don't agree with the higher Marine value. It limits their functionality too much, IMO.


Someone who had not been as heavily armored and augmented may have been able to traverse the weakened floor without such a mishap.
<grin> Could have been worse: could have been a fully body modification, or <gasp> a Dragon-class body mod! ;)


Again, the power armor may seem to weigh nothing to the marine, but it does have a certain bulk to it and does restrict some of the natural range of motion.
Indeed. One ony needs to take a gander at the shoulder with the shoulder pad, backpack, helmet, etc., to severely limit the movement of the Marine's shoulder. Despite the artwork, that is, which seems to fudge this. (This is just a mental image that I have, so there might actually be a way of plausibly fudging it.) The same applies to other joints, e.g. the hip, although my interpretation of AAPA requires that a Marine spend much of their time in the armour in something of a horse-riding stance (mainly because it allows a reduction in the required waist of the Marine in question).


A scout trades off the heavier armor to be abe to worm through areas that someone in power armor wouldnot be able to access
Yes, but it is carapace armour isn't it? From what I remember of the wargame, that doesn't really count as the most flexible of armour types!


A suit of power armor would not be able to fit down a standard size manhole, however a scout in carapace armor would have a reasonable chance.
Given the increased size and shoulder width of the Marine, either in or out of armour? I doubt it. Well, unless you say that it is an 'STC manhole' that is designed to allow Marines through since, after all, Marines are based on STC... or something like that. I'm sure that Philip has used a similar argument before. He'll probably make his interpretation known soon, though.


Again, I am drawing somewhat on my experience playing cyberpunk.
RPG can offer a great deal to interpretation of the 'fluff', since it allows a reasoned extrapolation/abstraction of the real world over to 40k. It certainly adds spice to the most qualitative discussions that go on at these boards (which are also fun, don't get me wrong!).


Of course, rule of cool has them as the newbies, trying to survive long enough to earn their power armour...
Tradition in the face of a more pragmatic/cost effective approach to Marine induction is supported in the 'fluff' (cf. Dawn of War: Ascension) and, indeed, is paralleled by seemingly non-sensical, cost ineffective cultural traditions in the real world. With that said there has to be a limit...


It would have been like it was with the Dark Angels.
That bit of 'fluff' has always raised a bit of an eyebrow with me, since I learned of its creation in the later editions. The complete reconstruction of a human into a Marine would be quite difficult, although primarily comprised of increasing musculoskeletal mass after which most everything else is implantation. This would be entirely possible with an increased 'tech level', and is something that I personally include under the 'nanomorphic metavirus' potential, lesser versions of which are utilised in such rituals as the Cup of Wulfen, etc. (This is, of course, not official. As Destecado borrows from Cyberpunk and other sources, I borrow from GURPS (in this case Biotech) and other sources.)


After the heresy, the codex was written, specifiying the scout role as a further means of weeding out the recruits that could not cut it as a marine.
Remember the age limitation for the implantation of the Black Carapace for those that prefer to conform to the letter of the 'fluff'. Of course, this is arguably entrenched tradition more than many of the other organs, so it could be implanted later. It still looks a bit economically dubious to have pre-Marines wondering around with eighteen organs awaiting the traditional bullet with their name on it after all the losses and expense that has been gone through to get them to that point.

Kage

scwolf
25-01-2006, 01:47
While it is technically true that Chaos Veterans and, with the new Space Marine Codex, Loyalist Chapters that take the trait "See But Don't Be Seen" can infiltrate, they still are not a match for a scout. These units may gain the infiltrate ability (at an added cost), but they still do not benefit from the "Scout" special rule and do not obtain the scout special ability, "Move Through Cover".

I would just like to point out that Scouts themselves also do not benefit from the "Scout" special rule. Unless they're on bikes.

Kage2020
25-01-2006, 11:55
Now that is funny. :D Or are the bikes silent as well? ;)

Kage

Tynesh
26-01-2006, 02:46
Indeed they are Kage! They employ soft foam tyres and have extended mufflers to reduce noise pollution. Either that or Scout Bikes use Milk Float engines...

"Bruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuummmmmm!"

"What was that?"
"The milkman"
"Oh!"
....
BLAM!

Destecado
27-01-2006, 12:50
I would just like to point out that Scouts themselves also do not benefit from the "Scout" special rule. Unless they're on bikes.

Well, it is all in who you talk to at GW. This issue has come up several times when I have played my Space Marine scout army. Two seperate opponents (on two seperate occasions) demanded that we call GW to verify the ruling. On the first call the ruling went in favor of allowing "Scout" Squads to benefit from this rule, when the scenario does not allow them to use the infiltrate ability. This means that they either infiltrate or get the free move. The second call ruled against this interpretation, but the representative would not elaborate beyond saying no.

I quess GW is of two minds on this issue, as they are with so many other issues. It's just like life, in a court of law it all comes down to the judge ruling on your case.

scwolf
28-01-2006, 04:19
Well, it is all in who you talk to at GW.

I talk to people at GW who write Codexes, Chapter Approved compilation books, Errata, FAQs, White Dwarf Magazine, and the GW staffer posts on the official GW forums.

As far as I know, none of these sources has ever stated that the SM Scout infantry is supposed to have the "Scouts" special rule, but I'll freely admit I don't do the best job with keeping up with all the sources listed above. Does anyone know if this has been clarified in any of those venues?