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Crovax20
22-10-2009, 09:58
Hey all,

When firing guess range weapons, are you allowed to roll out your tape measure to get a feeling for the range you want to guess? Usually I roll it out to get a feeling for how much inch I should aim. I do not place it on the board or anything just roll it out to get a feeling for how many inches I should be aiming for. Is this against the rules?

Thanks in advance for the anwser!

wilsongrahams
22-10-2009, 10:06
Technically no as you are not measuring the range, but this wouldn't seem appropriate to your opponent. Just try to have a look before it is your turn if you want to do this so your opponent doesn't see you having a look before you need to shoot. Even, during movement you could be looking as it is less beardy to look at a range before guessing it yourself whether to charge or not for example.

Dutch_Digger
22-10-2009, 10:35
i would suggest praticing ranges before the battle instead. Using a measuring tape the way you say seems a bit dodgy to me

after a few games youll get every range within half an inch

grailknight
22-10-2009, 10:38
no its not against the rules but would u allow me to do the same before declaring charges?

Condottiere
22-10-2009, 10:38
It is, especially when you're faced with a lot of them. And if you start getting near perfect shots, just after you were extensively fooling around with the tape measure, that increases the annoyance level.

Unuhexium
22-10-2009, 10:56
It's technically allowed but, extensive (ab)use might **** people off. I expect someone who has played for several months to know roughly how far 24" and 48" is.

Personally I find it more rewarding to try and keep track of where every unit started and how far they have moved and then make an informed guess. Being able to place dead on shots with a "cold barrel" scare people ********.

To practice, between games, place your artillery somewhere, throw out a dice somewhere on the board and try to guess the range to it.

Basic understanding of trigonometry is a plus.

The Red Scourge
22-10-2009, 10:57
No problem with it :)

Crovax20
22-10-2009, 11:02
Well the reason I do it is because I only recently started playing fantasy (have got 7battles under my belt now). I am getting better at judging ranges in inches, and right now I usually already have a range in my head and just pull it out for a second to confirm my thoughts or adjust it by an inch or 2.

theunwantedbeing
22-10-2009, 11:09
Totally illegal, infact if you do that twice against me I'll be taking your tape measure off you when it comes to guessing ranges so you can't do that.
Although I will have asked you not to, and then told you not before it comes to take the tape measure off you.

It's highly annoying when an opponent feels the need to play around with their tape measure when it comes to guessing ranges.

If you miss, tough.
Thats kindof how guess ranges work, you guess and range and then that is the range the weapon fires and you can adjust next shot.
Note the magic phase comes before the shooting phase so nearby mages are useful for giving you that "feel for the range" as you'll be allowed to measure the range of any successfully cast spell from the mage to a particular target.

When I do this I extend the tape measure to the range of the spell and pass it over the target unit.
Once the spell has been successfully cast of course.

narrativium
22-10-2009, 11:27
Depends which way up it is. I'll sometimes use a tape measure, measurements-side-down, as a straight line to determine line of sight, but if it's measurements-side-up, I'd be measuring, which is against the rules.

I tend to put my finger (just my finger, no measuring in handspans) on the table, roughly halfway between weapon and target... it seems easier to guess halfway and double the result. It's still assessing distance just with my eyes, though, and that's as far as I stretch the guideline.

Zilverug
23-10-2009, 09:48
This might have a slight cultural aspect to it as well.
Most people on the world do not have the faintest idea how much an "inch" is.

Of course they could actually make their guesses in centimeters, twips or whatever unit they are accustomed to and then convert it to inches, but all this calculating might take even longer than staring at a tape measure while guessing a range (especially if they use Pythagoras' theorem for the calculations).

Condottiere
23-10-2009, 10:21
Having dealt with both, and having started initially with the metric system in Primary School, I find inches are more practical at this scale.

Havock
26-10-2009, 00:20
By all means, roll out your tape measure in front of your eyes; just nowhere near the table area please.
If there is one way to screw up your judgement it's that.

Godgolden
26-10-2009, 02:32
guess range is guess range, by all means get a baring when your moving trops/cav (dont over measure =P), but dont play with your tape, skill is important part of the game :)

it would be rather annoying if someone decided to check ranges with his tape, eye up the range and get a dead on shot with a warmachine on say.. my lord in the middle of nowhere, if it was skill id be impressed, pre measuring, not so much.

edit: theres always markers on the board, the board 48inches wide and 72 long, 24 inch to the middle of the board etc, plus ranging with previous shots is a given "i just missed, if you move forward 8", XX" should be dead on"

Crazy Harborc
26-10-2009, 02:35
My group of opponents have done it for years. We NEVER try to point the tape in the direction we are charging or guessing the range for. We hold the tape in front of our body while NOT standing over/upto the table. In fact I normally step back from the table before whipping out the tape measure.:D

outbreak
26-10-2009, 04:28
I had someone do this the other day, I wouldn't approve of it and will ask him not to do it anymore if he does it again. Just getting a view of how big x inches is helps alot and is quite bs.

tarrasque
26-10-2009, 09:08
Depends which way up it is. I'll sometimes use a tape measure, measurements-side-down, as a straight line to determine line of sight, but if it's measurements-side-up, I'd be measuring, which is against the rules.

I tend to put my finger (just my finger, no measuring in handspans) on the table, roughly halfway between weapon and target... it seems easier to guess halfway and double the result. It's still assessing distance just with my eyes, though, and that's as far as I stretch the guideline.

so the dact that i know the distance between my pinky ang my elbow is 19 inch and the back of mine masurements side down has some damage on it doesn't bother you?


This might have a slight cultural aspect to it as well.
Most people on the world do not have the faintest idea how much an "inch" is.

Of course they could actually make their guesses in centimeters, twips or whatever unit they are accustomed to and then convert it to inches, but all this calculating might take even longer than staring at a tape measure while guessing a range (especially if they use Pythagoras' theorem for the calculations).
if thats the case buy a ruler whit inches and cm. make clear you gues in cm and measeur the cm for guessing. but you have to learn range guessing doing it in inches will only slow that a tiny bit

Milgram
26-10-2009, 09:25
there are so many ways to have a reference point as how far something is. a 6 wide unit of 25mm bases gives you approximately 6 inches. the table gives you 48". it's not that hard - and by looking at the tape measure, you will not get spot on either. unless your good. and then you can do it without.

Condottiere
26-10-2009, 09:29
That's like keeping track of landmarks - I believe it's annoying because playing around with the measure is so obvious.

narrativium
26-10-2009, 09:47
so the fact that i know the distance between my pinky ang my elbow is 19 inch and the back of mine masurements side down has some damage on it doesn't bother you? To the first part of that: you've got a point. I haven't measured my pinky-to-elbow distance, but other people might. Then again, I don't place my elbow anywhere specific (e.g. in the line of whatever I'm measuring), I just reach onto the table and put down my pinky about halfway between target and firer/charger when trying to assess a range.

As to the tape measure damage, in the sense of markings on the back? That might bother me. The use of the back of the tape measure to work out a line of sight and arc of fire at range just came about from convenience of having the tool there, and I use the blank side to explicitly not measure. If you think there're any markings on the back of my measure then we'll go back to model's eye view and best guess for far-off angle measuring.

tarrasque
26-10-2009, 09:55
If you think there're any markings on the back of my measure then we'll go back to model's eye view and best guess for far-off angle measuring.

dont worry i'm not saying you do it. but in our group we have person how can and will do that to winn.

Milgram
26-10-2009, 14:03
does he play dark elves or demons? because it's always them.

wilsongrahams
26-10-2009, 21:48
There is an alternative method that relies purely on skill and practise. Build a lego catapult and fire it at your foe. The shot lands where you hit...

Condottiere
26-10-2009, 22:01
That's inadvertently happened with enthusiastic die rolls - none of us with painted models were pleased; less so, when beer's been imbibed.

Haravikk
27-10-2009, 00:35
Guessing is what makes guess-weapons fun and exciting to use. I'd consider any kind of measuring to be cheating and refuse to complete the game if done again after warning. Same goes for people who habitually "forget" to declare what the dice they're rolling represent so they can try and pawn them off on a less damaging unit if they do badly and that kind of thing.
Guess-range weapons can be very powerful, which is why they're guess range rather than roll-to-hit.

Tape measures shouldn't be out until ranges are guessed, and dice shouldn't be rolled till the other player knows what they're for.

I usually play a house rule basically that the tape-measure should retracted and placed on the table until the point where you have to measure for something, as you're not supposed to measure for charging, or any kind of shooting, or even ranged magic, if you get it wrong then the attack simply falls short.
I also play with a house rule against "suspicious use of body parts". :P

Personally I find the method narrativium described useful, of trying to focus on a point mid-way to the target. I don't use a finger but I wouldn't begrudge someone that (to mark the mid-point only). It's a lot easier to judge max-distance that way, and avoids the need to wander around the table wasting time :)

Crazy Harborc
27-10-2009, 00:36
Then there's guessing ranges, rolling the dice and writing down the then measured results. Then there's the random artillery die.....I always get a 10 when the range what I guess plus the artillery die calls for a roll under 6.

Haravikk
28-10-2009, 00:48
It's all part of the challenge :)
If you're using a cannon, then you consider the potential for going too far or too little, and weigh it against how far you expect it to bounce. I generally figure it's better to undershoot a bit and hope the ball bounces enough to reach the target, as that rolling low on the artillery dice twice is fairly unlikely. I generally try to consider ranks as well, as with bigger units you can aim to land closer to them to try and guarantee some damage, but then you potentially restrict the maximum damage you can do.

It's what makes them so fun :)
I've never liked stone-throwers though, I guess the potential damage they can do is good, but I rarely play on a large enough tabletop to warrant using one, as with targeting particularly juicy targets there's usually too much of a chance of hitting your own units instead when it scatters, so you're left lobbing rocks at straggler units (usually missile troops) that you might never do any significant damage to. I suppose cannons and bolt-throwers are not much good versus missile units either since they tend to have shallow ranks but you can usually hit more consistently.

Havock
28-10-2009, 06:00
Well, the mortar is fine really; great for thinning out rank & file. Remarkably good vs daemons.

The hellcannon is a fine 'stonethrower' and so are those dwarf multitool things :p

Condottiere
28-10-2009, 07:31
I forget - which multi-tool thing do Dwarves use?

Havock
29-10-2009, 06:40
Runes of flaming +1S Poo-rocks.