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Morthak
22-10-2009, 12:02
I haven't played many battles larger than 1500pts and I'm still trying to find a playstyle that suits me. Most of the time I use an all-cav list with sorcerers on discs, but it can be too unreliable.
So I wanted to make a more tough list, not focussed on magic. Kholek was the first choice I made. He's tough and powerfull enough to go head-on just about anything. A Chaos Lord was still not that hard to kill, and I did want Ld9 in my army. Then I needed some magic defence, a scroll caddy on Chaos Steed in a big block of Marauders, so that I have static combat res. somewhere in my army.
Then I wanted a BSB, first I made an Exalted Champ with collar and Sword of Might on a Steed to join my Knights, but when I finished the list up, it was still not what I wanted. I had most of the usual, some 4 Dragon Ogres with GW's, 6 Knights of Nurgle with standard and Banner of Rage, some hounds, some Marauder Horsemen and a Warshrine.
It was still not that tough.
Then I looked for what units were tough in the book, and I found Trolls. Immediately I took Throgg instead of the BSB and two units of Trolls. I also ditched the warshrine and Banner of Rage on the Knights, and gave them Rapturous Standard.
This is the list:

Kholek Suneater

Throgg the Troll King

Chaos Sorcerer lvl 1
Scroll, Scroll, Chaos Steed

3 x 5 Chaos Warhounds

2 x 5 Marauder Horsemen of Slaanesh
Flails, Light Armour, throwing axes

15 Marauders of Slaanesh
Full Command, Flails, Light Armour, Shields

3 Chaos Trolls

4 Chaos Trolls

6 Chaos Knights of Nurgle
Banner, Rapturous Standard

4 Dragon Ogres with Greatweapons

2199pts

I still want the block of marauders to be bigger, but I'm not sure where to get the points from. Throgg will join the unit of 4 Trolls.

The list now has 3 fast, hard-hitting units, the knights Kholek and the Dragon Ogres, 3 tougher units, the trolls and the marauders, and 5 supporting units, the horsemen and the hounds.

They will be up against Lizardmen this Friday, and I'm quite sure my opponent will have a big block of Templeguard with a BSB and a slann in it.

All advice and comments are welcome,

Morthak

Whitehorn
22-10-2009, 12:19
Do your Knights need to be that beefy? If you hide them well (say behind hounds) you can drop a ton of points from them and they are just as effective but less expensive if lost.

15 Marauders is throw away - I wouldn't give them a standard. If you want full command and staying power, take 25-30.

Morthak
22-10-2009, 12:29
Kholek Suneater

Throgg the Troll King

Chaos Sorcerer lvl 1
Scroll, Scroll, Chaos Steed

3 x 5 Chaos Warhounds

2 x 5 Marauder Horsemen of Slaanesh
Flails, Light Armour, throwing axes, Musician

23 Marauders of Slaanesh
Full Command, Flails, Light Armour, Shields

3 Chaos Trolls

4 Chaos Trolls

5 Chaos Knights of Nurgle
Banner

4 Dragon Ogres with Greatweapons

2199pts

Better?

,Morthak

Whitehorn
22-10-2009, 12:46
You didn't have to literally apply my suggestions :)

Some other ideas: Marauders in block work better with hand weapons and shields - they get a 4+ save in combat. As they are a bit naff at fighting, staying alive and having 4/5 combat resolution before any attacks are made keeps them in play and often winning. Flails are great for small throw away units because they hit hard and don't rely on stacked CR to last the fight. That said, you don't lose the hand weapons by buying flails, so you can make the choice at start of combat.

I'd also say Nurgle on Knights is wasted. You should be charging and thus fighting first. In most cases they should clear the rank they hit, allowing no or little attacks back - so the mark isn't that great there. Against shooting they tend to have a 1+ save or no save but you should keep them out of sight from missile entirely, reducing the BS isn't that great IMO.

Mounted Marauder weapons are always debatable. I go for double spears as it's cheaper and they still off +1S on the charge. I always give them a musician as they're on the board to bait enemies and flee. Musician grants +1Ld when rallying.

Morthak
22-10-2009, 13:09
EDIT: forgot the musicians, they were on the horsemen.

What mark would cut it then? Tzeentch is many points for little protection, Slaanesh is usefull, but by causing fear and having Ld8 it's not that effective. I'm not that experienced enough to use frezied knights well enough, so I thing Nurgle is a good choice. It may not be that good against lizardmen, but most of the time it's more than worth it.

Flails on the Marauders is actually quite a gamble, 46pts for a S5 in first round of combat that I might not even use in every combat, but I like the versatility. That way they aren't useless when they have to kill something.
Flails on the Marauder Horsemen have always been worth it to me. S5 when charging or being charged is IMO better than 4 on the charge, even costing 1 point more.

,Morthak

eleveninches
22-10-2009, 13:12
drop throgg and the maurauder infantry, ogres and dragon ogres for 3 x khorne knights, and get naother unit of slaaneshi maurauder horsemen

Morthak
22-10-2009, 13:23
No, that's just not what I'm looking for. I want a tough army, a little more than an all-cav list. I want to try this list, but it seems you ignored why I built this list, and instead gave me tips I don't need.

How could I play this list best?

,Morthak

Jiggy
22-10-2009, 20:26
You dont have to get horsemen to fill core choices.Throgg does that for ya.

Morthak
22-10-2009, 20:45
I know, but I want some fast support, and Horsemen are fast and can hit hard enough. What should I take instead?

Any last tips on fighting Lizardmen with this list?

Morthak

Jiggy
22-10-2009, 20:49
I am a bit sceptical about your magic defence against lizards.Better crush them fast or they are about to blast you with magic.
The list is nice I think.

Whitehorn
23-10-2009, 12:12
You don't have to give your knights a mark. I certainly don't. 200 points naked is a lot for a unit that can effectively be killed from 1 shot or spell.

popisdead
23-10-2009, 23:13
The Knights are out of place. You coudl use some magic defense.

The marauders move pretty slow

Morthak
24-10-2009, 17:09
Well, after I found out my list was illegal (about 100pts too much) I dropped the marauders and added a Troll. My army was the following:

Kholek Suneater

Throgg the Troll King

Chaos Sorcerer lvl 1
Scroll, Scroll, Chaos Steed

3 x 5 Chaos Warhounds

2 x 5 Marauder Horsemen of Slaanesh
Flails, Light Armour, throwing axes, Musicians

4 Chaos Trolls

4 Chaos Trolls

6 Chaos Knights
Banner, Banner of Rage

4 Dragon Ogres with Greatweapons


I faced Lizardmen twice, once vamps and once OK.

The first lizardmen army had a slann, an Engine and a special character skink on the same hovering thing as the slann.
It went very well, Kholek smashed the engine, my Dragon Ogres took out his Cold one Knights with Scar Veteran and the trolls killed some kroxigors and did well. He had the lore of Heavens twice, which wasn't very effective, and his slann had the lore of metal. He didn't roll that well and with my two scrolls and 3 DD I managed well.

The second battle was very different, but also against lizardmen.

His army:

2 engines
1 Skink hero on ancient steg
1 skink hero on terradon
3 units of 12 skinks
1 unit chameleons
1 unit terradons
1 unit Razordons
1 unit Salamanders

Quite early in the battle Kholek went mad and charged a unit skinks in defficult terrain, they fleed, ofcourse, so that he could be charged by both the engines! They failed to do much damage, and Kholek smashed one to pieces in a duel. Ld10 and S9, Eye of the Gods is nice as a bonus. while he killed the other engine and the Dragon Ogres the other steg, the rest of my army failed to do anything, and got shot to pieces, even my knights, who were trapped two turns by my stupid trolls. The troll units kept on going, but both Throgg and Kholek couldn't stop the second troll unit from fleeing.

I won both the battles, I don't have time to report the other two (which I both lost ;)), but I'll do that later.

I'm quite pleased with how the army works, I might change a few things, like dropping the Banner of Rage and the second unit Trolls, to take something as hitty but more reliable.

,Morthak

Jind_Singh
25-10-2009, 06:17
Kholek Suneater
Throgg the Troll King
Chaos Sorcerer lvl 1
Scroll, Scroll, Chaos Steed
3 x 5 Chaos Warhounds
2 x 5 Marauder Horsemen of Slaanesh
Flails, Light Armour, throwing axes, Musicians
4 Chaos Trolls
4 Chaos Trolls
6 Chaos Knights
Banner, Banner of Rage
4 Dragon Ogres with Greatweapons

i personally like the list - any suggestions have already worked into the list - i love the hounds/horseman thrown in with the core of trolls/dragon ogres AND knights - too many hard hitting units for the enemy to successfully kill off in 2 turns, meaning you'll get some good combats off.
Never tried Kholek though, let us know how he turns out.

Morthak
25-10-2009, 13:32
@ Jind_Singh- It's a really fun army to play with, my only regret is the Banner of Rage on the Knights, I'm still not that great with frenzy.

Third battle VS VC

His army was about this:

Vampire lord lvl3, ghoulkin with also a 4+ ward and stupidity
Vampire lvl 2, ghoulkin
Vampire lvl 1, on barded knightmare, Heavy Armour and a sword that regains wounds for him or his unit.
Wight BSB

2 units of +- 16 ghouls
a unit of zombies
5 Bloodknights
5 Fellbats
5 Cairn Wraiths
3 units of 5 Dire wolves

When we started the battle, my opponent already had a feeling it would be quite legendary. It was.
Pretty soon one of my unit trolls were smacking zombies, and chewed them up real good. That was the only thing happening on the right flank. On the left however, his Bloodknights with the lvl1 vamp and the cairnwraiths were headed for my Knights and Dragon Ogres, which they murdered brutally. In the middle, however, my trolls with Throgg were flanked, by a mistake, by a unit ghouls with the BSB, who survived. Kholek charged into their flank, but by a stupid mistake, I tried to cast fireball on the Cairn Wraiths, I mistcasted and he could cast a spell of his own, to charge with the second unit ghouls with the other 2 vamps in Kholek!
That was turn 3. Kholek spent the rest of the battle smashing ghoulchampions with a +5 overkill, while the trolls gathered and joined battle. While I did do much damage with the Trolls, I wasn't able to stop the vampires casting their units to 30+ ghouls, as the unit champions kept being raised back and Kholek stoping them. In the last few turns every unit was in the middle of the table, his bloodknights charged in one of the units Trolls and his Fellbats charged my Sorcerer. Miraculously, the combat that consisted of Kholek, 2 units Trolls, 2 giant units ghouls and the Bloodknights, I won with 1! Sadly, most of my army was wiped off the table without much trouble, and Kholek had lost 4 wounds by dratted poison, I lost by about 1200pts, while neither me or my opponent felt like the battle was over.

It was a great battle, and Kholek proved his worth by holding out against the gigantic units of ghouls thrown at him.

My fourth battle was against Ogres

His Army:

Tyrant with the D3 wounds weapon
3 Butchers, one had a bangstick
2 units of 4 Ironguts
1 unit Bulls with AHW
2 units Yhetees
1 Gorger
1 unit Gnoblars

I lost pretty bad because I played like a baboon. Not only did I target a unit within 12" of Kholek with his Lightning (makes him frenzied) I also forgot to disspell his Regeneration on the unit Ogres the frenzied Suneater ran into. It contained his Tyrant, but luckily failed his Fear test, and did nothing to him. Sadly, I was stupid enough to charge with a unit hounds in there too, because Kholek couldn't charge otherwise, and lost combat with 6, Kholek ran and got killed two turns after that by the same tyrant. My knights were flanked by some yhetees and run down, the Dragonogres slain by Ironguts.
When he Killed Kholek, I gave up, not only because the battle was already decided, but also because the battle against the vamps took far too long and we ran out of time.

General thoughts:
- I can do little against skirmishing units, my Marauder Horsemen are easily shot down and can't chase them away.
- I'm really bad with frenzy. My knights did almost nothing in every battle.
- The Trolls really need Throgg or Kholek near, but that isn't that much of a problem.
- The Dragon Ogres are always worth their points, only cairn wraiths rendered them useless.
- Throgg is a good, tough character, but I tend to expect too much from him.
- Kholek is devastatingly tough, but I should be carefull with his lighting attack, being frenzied can make my opponents lure him. Poison is really nasty, especially if you roll bad, but he can still soak up scary amounts of damage.
- The Scroll caddy was always worth it, but I shouldn't test my luck and try to cast something with him, the risks are far too large I found out.

I do have a rematch in two weeks, any small changes I should make to the list, except dropping Banner of Rage?

,Morthak

Jind_Singh
25-10-2009, 20:23
drop the magic standard for the knights - give them a war bannor or something reliable other than frenzy! IDeally find a way to make them unmarked, drop all command options and see if you can find a way to add another unit of 5 knights to the list.
With 2 plain units of knights you got yourself nice hard hitting flankers - keep the trolls / throgg centre stage with the sun eater, try to limit your lighting attacks with him to keep him unfrenzied - he is to liable when he has frenzy.
As dealing with skirmishers - I am really suprised your having hard time with them seeing that you got hounds/horseman - I normally keep the fast cav/dogs close to my main battle line and they target the skirmishers - my 1st objective in most games is to kill enemy fast cav/scouts/skirmishers ASAP.
Another tactic is if your having trouble with being flanked by fast moving units is to keep a hard hitter BEHIND your lines - and leave them there. There role is to just charge anyone foolish enough to flank you, and they really have to think hard about going in. Warshrines are great for this as they give a roll on the eye of the Gods table, and hit pretty hard when they charge in.

Morthak
26-10-2009, 15:30
Well, I could indeed use an extra non-frenzied unit of Knights, this is what I came up with:

Kholek Suneater
Throgg the Troll King
Chaos Sorcerer lvl 1
Scroll, Scroll, Chaos Steed
3 x 5 Chaos Warhounds
2 x 5 Marauder Horsemen of Slaanesh
Flails, Light Armour, Musicians
3 Chaos Trolls
4 Chaos Trolls
5 Chaos Knights
5 Chaos Knights
4 Dragon Ogres with Greatweapons

I dropped a troll and throwing weapons on the horsemen too, would that be worth it?
Now I do have two units of them, but they're less reliable. I could drop the whole unit trolls and give them some upgrades, but I'm not sure that's a good idea.

Morthak

Jiggy
26-10-2009, 15:54
I think the final list is great as it is actually.
What model are you using for Kholek?Regular saggoth?

Morthak
26-10-2009, 16:27
Actually, a Khorne Lord on Juggernaut right now. I'm still testing armies and I tend to think magic can be too unreliable, that's why this list contains so little. And ofcourse because I like Kholek so much.
I'm still experimenting with the army, but I think I've got it maximized now. Now I'll start building it all soon.

Morthak