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Puffin Magician
21-01-2006, 16:11
Those who played Epic should remember these things, and for those who don't know, this (http://www.netepic.org/GALLERY/view_photo.php?set_albumName=albuo02&id=KriegGorgons) is what it looks like.

It's old Epic stats treated it like a normal vehicle with a large dozer blade [for clearing paths through trees/obstacles/etc], transported 5 stands [25 models], and had a special mine-throwing weapon in addition to the ubiquitous defensive "bolters" which have been modernized on other Epic vehicles as a Twinlinked Heavy Bolter.

There are many problems when I try to transfer this rare tank into 40k using the VDR; it's weapons are expensive, it shouldn't carry that many models, and there's no way of representing it's extra armour save thanks to the huge dozer. The way I see it, there are three ways of VDRing the Gorgon, each worse than the previous:

Lower the transport capacity to 10, reduce it's weapons to less than 50pts, and use it as a Transport Replacement. This way, at least, every unit can be transported in a Gorgon, but it doesn't accurately reflect how the tank worked in Epic.

Lower the transport capacity to 10, and give it the proper weapons: a Twinlinked Heavy Bolter and the Minethrower - no matter which way you slice it, that weapon is too expensive for a Transport tank. Shortbarreled Griffon/Whirlwind, Shortbarrel+GunBatt Mortar, or an equivalent indirect, multi-blast weapon. This will make the Gorgon a Heavy Support choice, meaning only 30 models of the army can be transported. Not really acceptable.

Make it a Superheavy Tank. Transport 25, proper weapons, and 2 structure points could represent the "dozer save" as well as the vehicle's hull. This is by far the worst option, as not only are Superheavy vehicles expensive, but are disallowed in tournaments, there would still only be a maximum of 3, and they carry a stigma of disapproval.

So far I'm going with option #1 because it's the most sensible, but I'm unhappy that not much of the Gorgon survived the transformation. Here's my current VDR stats as a legitimate "Transport":

Gorgon Assault Vehicle - 155pts
Bs3, 14/11/10, Tank, Open-Topped, Transport 10, Rough Terrain Modification, Track Guards
Minethrower [G6-24" s6 ap4 Ordnance 1 Blast], Twinlinked Heavy Stubber

That's still rather pricy, and having multiples of this tank would mean that I have the option of hurling a lot of pieplates around - something else I'm not that happy with. Changing the weapon to something less powerful doesn't make it any less expensive; a Shortbarrel Gun Battery Mortar [G24" s4 ap6 Heavy 2 Blast] costs as much as the Shortbarrel Griffon Mortar that I used above. Go figure.

Anyway, all that jumbled rambling was an attempt to spark discussion about how to wedge the Gorgon into the sea of vehicles available to the Imperial Guard. I'd like to preserve as much as the original rules as possible, and keep this tank as an assault transport rather than a fullblown siege tank.

Comments, criticism, ideas and input are all welcome.

Cadian 21st
22-01-2006, 10:33
- Hmmm, I was noticing that too. I do wish there was a "Make your own weapons" dealio around, but alas, there isn't. I was making Lascannon buggies with the same stats as Sentinels, but they come up for 65pts, so I'd be better off placing them on bases and calling them Sentinels, lol. Such are the problems with VDR.

- I came up at 154pts for the same thing as you, lol.

Here's what I ran off:

Name Points Front Side Rear BS
Gorgon Assault Vehicle 109 14 11 10 3
Type:Tank
Size:Normal
Speed:Normal
Weapons:1 x Short-barrelled Mortar
Special Options:Transport 10, Open-topped
Vehicle Category:Transport

- That'd work, and it's only slightly more then a Chimera. Your opponent will slap you for the 14 AV, but wtv. Anyhow, sure, it doesn't capture the "Gun Battery" feel, but heck, practicality rules over fluff IMO. Add a single Heavy Stubber through the Armoury, or add the Heavy Bolter to make it 124pts.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
22-01-2006, 12:56
Well, the Gorgon was indeed Super Heavy. And, originally, a Mine Clearing vehicle, back in the days of Space Marine, when Adeptus Titanicus was still about.

If I remember correctly, it was the size of a Baneblade. If the Baneblades 2 Heavy Bolter Sponsons bare a direct correlation to it's 10 dice of Epic Bolters, then the Gorgon, having 4 dice of Bolters, would have a single twin linked set.

The Minethrower was *extremely* short ranged (15cm) but was slightly more pokey (better save mod) than a Battle Cannon, so a Demolisher cannon might not be too outrageous. You could always convert it to look like anything, as long as you stuck to it just being a Demolisher Cannon in terms of rules. Is is described as 'lobbing large, barrel-shaped charges a short distance ahead of it's advance to clear out enemy troops' hence why I feel the Demolisher Cannon is the closest approximation I can come to.

The troops, in 40k, would bundle out the front of the vehicle, perhaps causing the tank to be counted as open topped, as it has to raise the Dozer Blade to do so. Never really tinkered with the VDR, so not sure how this would work points wise, if at all.

Armour Values, I'd suggest pretty much identical to a Baneblade, as both (barring the Dozer Blade) had the same save in Epic, 1+ to the front, 2+ to the sides, and 3+ to the rear.

So, there you go. This information is direct from 'Armies of the Imperium' so it's about as up to date as we're likely to get. Sadly! Oh, and it is noted as a Close Assault Vehicle, and is generally used in Sieges. And my word it was slow. Again, it's move matched a Baneblade!

Puffin Magician
22-01-2006, 19:50
Your opponent will slap you for the 14 AVThey shouldn't, since it worked more like an invulnerable save than anything else.

Mad Doc: I have the "Armies of the Imperium" .pdf list thanks to NetEpic.org, so know all about the stats and such; the Gorgon's mine-thrower having a better svmod than a Battlecannon confuzzled the hell out of me too.

I did not know it was a Superheavy Vehicle though, despite the obvious size and transport hinting at it. I suppose that answers my question and tells me where to stick it!

Gorgon Assault Transport Tank - 310pts
Bs3, 14/11/10, Superheavy Tank, 2 Str Pts, Open-Topped, Transport 25, Rough Terrain Mod, Track Guards, Minesweeper
Minethrower [Demolisher], Twinlinked Heavy Bolter

So really pricy and a Superheavy, which is really want I did not want it to be, but them's the breaks and at least it's accurate to the Epic rules. Even 75 models mounted into 3 of these things isn't very many for an IG army but I guess I'll think of something...

Thanks for the help!

Mad Doc Grotsnik
23-01-2006, 12:58
Armour wise, I reckon that 13/12/11 would be pretty cool. Makes it survivable, but not overly so. Would also get a points break.

The two structure points, well, I guess they are kind of necessary. Is a shame that the Dozer Blade can't be represented properly.

colhodg
23-01-2006, 14:53
Not sure you can do it through the VDR but why not have a single structure point that only apples to hits to the front armour - to represent the dozer blade?

It's been a while since i've seen the epic models but they look relatively straight forward to build - 2 leman russ (or maybe land raider) track sections put together and some plasicard with a demolisher turret. Just need to scavenge a big dozer blade?

TWB
24-01-2006, 15:41
It's a superheavy, 25 models is conveniently minimum sized platoon size, so I'd stick with that (although it's tempting to bump it up to 30). They are obviously open topped, a nice counterpoint for Armour 14 on the front.
With the old epic super heavies I'd much rather represent the intention of the tank rather than the actual armaments, epic and 40K never did overlap that well and given that these tanks were conceived in the 2nd edition era of 40K it's entirely possible that direct translation is either impossible or does little to represent the function of the vehicle in question.

Dozerblade: It's not a VDR rule but the easiest way I think, to represent the Huge dozerblade would be to have it confer a hull down status Vs any shots from the foward fire arc, cobmined with an armour value of 14 on the front facing, this would solve all problems without making it too over powered.

Defensive Heavy Bolters: A single TL heavy bolter turret wouldn't hurt, although with an open topped tank, you could just leave it up to the passengers to deffend themselves ;).

Mine throwers: Really don't need to be that special, a demolisher cannon would do the trick nicely, but a mortar or two would be quite fitting.

Basically using the original Gorgon as an inspiration you need to re-evaluate how it would best do the job it was designed for in current 40K

Sai-Lauren
24-01-2006, 16:34
Well, the original Gorgon was a normal sized fully armoured minelayer/minesweeper with no transport capacity, a couple of ball mount bolters in the sides and an autocannon in the turret.

They became assault transports in 2nd edition epic, but I don't recall them being super-heavies. I'll have to check my version of Armies.
But to put a full guard platoon in anything without structure points seems hoping to luck a little too much.


Basically using the original Gorgon as an inspiration you need to re-evaluate how it would best do the job it was designed for in current 40K

So, if I may...

Weapons - Demolisher Cannon and a couple of light mortars seems adequate - (maybe a fire support/command version with no transport, a multi-launcher and a couple of griffon mortars would be nice as well ;)). I'd swap the bolters out for flamers and maybe a co-axial flamer next to the demolisher cannon. Maybe a pintle-storm bolter as well, but in an armoured turret, rather than the commander having to open the hatch and stick his head out.

Don't like the idea of it staying open-topped, it's designed to crawl towards breeches in defensive lines, so it's going to be subjected to a hail of fire from all sides. Fully armour it, and give it siege armour as well (like the Demolisher and Thunderer), so it's defended from the top.

As for the dozer blade, how about saying the front armour value is 14/12, you've got to penetrate both armour values with separate dice rolls - and any weapon modifiers (melta or ordanance weapons for example) don't affect the second penetration roll, however, if it takes a penetrating hit from the front that destroys it, anything inside is automatically killed due to their way out being destroyed.

The alternative is use the imperial field rules, but only apply them to shots from the front.

Charax
24-01-2006, 17:04
personally, I'd just go with AV13/14 at the front, and represent the minelayer with a shortbarreled Whirlwind launcher that always uses Castellan missiles (I know, not technically allowed by the VDR, but I don't see why not) - don't feel you have to stick too closely to the Epic version.

TWB
24-01-2006, 19:48
Weapons - Demolisher Cannon and a couple of light mortars seems adequate - (maybe a fire support/command version with no transport, a multi-launcher and a couple of griffon mortars would be nice as well ;)). I'd swap the bolters out for flamers and maybe a co-axial flamer next to the demolisher cannon. Maybe a pintle-storm bolter as well, but in an armoured turret, rather than the commander having to open the hatch and stick his head out.

This does all depend on how be we are talking about this tank being. The Demolisher Cannon or Mortars would be primarily dedicated detonating any mines/clearing obstructions and resistance that are infront of the Gorgon (and thus be dedicated to the front 90 fire arc), inspired by the Mine Plough (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/mineplough.htm) attachment made by Forgeworld.
I did consider the option of exchanging the demolisher for an Inferno Cannon because it seemed appropriate.


Don't like the idea of it staying open-topped, it's designed to crawl towards breeches in defensive lines, so it's going to be subjected to a hail of fire from all sides. Fully armour it, and give it siege armour as well (like the Demolisher and Thunderer), so it's defended from the top.

I saw it more as a heavy landing craft for dragging infantry (or possibly even other armoured units) across difficult terrain such as ruined buildings and not as a primary combat vehicle, it'll be crawling through the mess that the basilisks and Russes have already made. I like the idea of it being open topped.

Sai-Lauren
25-01-2006, 13:35
This does all depend on how be we are talking about this tank being. The Demolisher Cannon or Mortars would be primarily dedicated detonating any mines/clearing obstructions and resistance that are infront of the Gorgon (and thus be dedicated to the front 90 fire arc), inspired by the Mine Plough (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/mineplough.htm) attachment made by Forgeworld.


Which is what the dozer blade's there for (although I'd forgotten about the mine plough, so we can probably add the rules for it in as well :)), the demo' cannon and mortars would be to widen and keep any breeches clear, and the flamers would make sure that anyone who's managed to stay in the breech area doesn't stay there for long.



I saw it more as a heavy landing craft for dragging infantry (or possibly even other armoured units) across difficult terrain such as ruined buildings and not as a primary combat vehicle, it'll be crawling through the mess that the basilisks and Russes have already made. I like the idea of it being open topped.
Not really an "assault" vehicle then, is it? More of a "really big bus/tractor with a big steel plate on the front" ;)

Besides which, my idealised vision of them is a squadron of three slowly crawling their way towards a ruined enemy city wall in line abreast, incoming fire bouncing off the dozer blades, whilst laying down constant barrage of mortar rounds to keep the defenders heads down, and the odd demolisher cannon shell to destroy bunkers and enemy armour, all the while supported by artillery fire from their own lines.

Puffin Magician
28-01-2006, 03:31
Holy hell this thread sure was active while I was busy waiting at Schiphol for 7 hours and then losing my luggage in Virginia. Anyway...

Don't feel you have to stick too closely to the Epic version.Don't have to, but want to. That's really the only reason I use the VDR so much.

It's supposed to be Open-Topped because, according to the NetEpic list, the carried IG assault units had jump packs to fly over the last set of defending obstacles. Not too easy to fly out of a vehicle that's got a roof on it.

...they look relatively straight forward to build...Remember who you're talking to - no kitbashing of $60 kits here, these will be 100% scratchbuilds.

You need to re-evaluate how it would best do the job it was designed for in current 40K.As far as I'm concerned, that's a part of the Epic-to-40k process. Running up to defended positions, blasting the hell out of them, then disgorging a whole lot of grunts to chop apart survivors. Tough front armour, demolition gun, big transport capacity, able to clear minefields and better chances of getting through anti-tank ditches and whatnot. I think the rules I've posted are sufficient in those regards.

Weapons: I think a Demolisher Cannon and Mortars and Heavy Flamers makes this a bit of a siege-oriented vehicle when it's just a regular ol' heavy assault transport. Slapping all those weapons onto it also means the price jumps considerably. The Epic list mentions the blade being able to push through obstacles and whatnot so that's why I added Minesweeper - AFAIK it wasn't the explosive charges that did that, they were a seperate offensive weapon.

As for the dozer blade...Unfortunately I'd like to keep these as "VDR-legit" as possible. I might make up some special rules for it [two armour values, able to "clear" razorwire, etc] but that makes it less likely to see a battle.

my idealised vision of them is a squadron of threeMine too, lucky for us that superheavy detachments consist of 1-3 similar vehicles.

Sai-Lauren
31-01-2006, 16:31
Holy hell this thread sure was active while I was busy waiting at Schiphol for 7 hours and then losing my luggage in Virginia.

Has your luggage arrived yet?



Weapons: I think a Demolisher Cannon and Mortars and Heavy Flamers makes this a bit of a siege-oriented vehicle when it's just a regular ol' heavy assault transport. Slapping all those weapons onto it also means the price jumps considerably. The Epic list mentions the blade being able to push through obstacles and whatnot so that's why I added Minesweeper - AFAIK it wasn't the explosive charges that did that, they were a seperate offensive weapon.

Ok, maybe the mortars are a little over the top, and flamers rather than heavy flamers might be better.
Super-heavies are less likely to get immobilised by terrain anyway. If you've got any of the IA books, have a look at the baneblade rules.

Anyway, if it's Super-heavy, it's going to be slower than a regular transport. So what situations is it more advantageous to use it as opposed to a regular transport?



Mine too, lucky for us that superheavy detachments consist of 1-3 similar vehicles.
Hmm, now there's a thing ;)

Puffin Magician
31-01-2006, 17:08
You're right about the Superheavies being pretty difficult to Immobilize because of Engines Damaged, but the Dozer and Track Guards all but guarantee that you'll never get stuck.

So what situations is it more advantageous to use it as opposed to a regular transport?Advantages? Pah! I'd use it for one reason and one reason only - it was in Epic 40,000! ******** to logic!

And yes, my luggage has arrived. They're usually better at returning it after it's missing than they are at making sure everything else happens on time in the first place.

Chem-Dog
03-02-2006, 04:44
As the days of jump packing Guardsmen are gone (along with beastmen herds), what about doubling the Dozer Blade up as an assault ramp? If the Gorgon is big enough to carry 25 men, it could carry a single tank (russ size) or a squadron of sentinels or roughriders, not that any of these would be any real use.
If the dozer blade was an assault ramp, the Gorgon could be a mobile bridging device allowing attackers direct access to a breached enemy position.

Sai-Lauren
08-02-2006, 14:32
Advantages? Pah! I'd use it for one reason and one reason only - it was in Epic 40,000! ******** to logic!

Ah, should probably have said in what circumstances would imperial tacticians deploy them rather than simply calling up a mechanised company to drive there at full speed, rather than any personal reasons for us to get kit-bashing. ;)

Puffin Magician
08-02-2006, 17:04
Chem-Dog: It doesn't need an Assault Ramp since it's Open-Topped.

Sai: Ah, well then. I suppose since it was designed for a specific purpose [transporting assault troops through heavily defended barricades/defence lines/fortifications], it's likely not very good at doing anything else.

So if you've got to get a small platoon through minefields, razorwire and trenches to have them leap out and stab the wits out of people, get a Gorgon. Otherwise Chimeras are more readily available and faster.

Christine
11-05-2006, 23:17
What did you decide in the end Puffin? I was thinking about building one of these for my Vostroyans as it seemed very appropriate...

Decius
14-05-2006, 04:18
Puffin, wont you need your opponents permission to use a VDR tank anyway? So what if you break some VDR rules, just explain the tank to your opponents.

Here is what I think might be a good representation of the Gorgon Assault Vehicle:

14/12/10 BS3
Tank, Open Topped, Heavy Support
Demolisher Cannon, Twin-linked heavy bolter
Transport = 0 (at this stage)
163 points (at this stage)

The above is a legal VDR tank that represents the Gorgon well I think. However, it can't transport anyone, which we'll fix now. It costs one point per transport slot. Anything less than a superheavy tank can only carry 10 or 11 people. This is where I think you should break the rules. Just pay the 25 points for the 25 transport capacity. This will make the tank 188 points without upgrades and use up a heavy support slot. Now, you might know something that I don't about the Gorgon and this whole thing might not apply. Still, I think it works.

How big would a Gorgon be in 40K? From what you described, it seems about landraider sized. I would think that a landraider with less armour, fewer weapons, and no roof would hold 25 guys. A crusader can fit 5 guys more than a regular landraider just because it has 12 bolters instead of 4 lascannons. It seems quite evident to me that a vehicle the size of a landraider could fit 25 guys without a problem, as long as it was designed for that.

What do you think?

Puffin Magician
14-05-2006, 11:33
What did you decide in the end Puffin?To put it bluntly, I abandoned it. I have way too much to worry about financially, and I don't like the way 40k is being handled by GW - so I'm probably just going to stop playing.

Just pay the 25 points for the 25 transport capacity...That's probably what I would've ended up doing.
How big would a Gorgon be in 40K? From what you described, it seems about Land Raider sized.
That seems about right, and going by these (http://www.netepic.org/GALLERY/view_photo.php?set_albumName=albuo21&id=KriegThuddguns) two (http://www.netepic.org/GALLERY/view_photo.php?set_albumName=albuo02&id=KriegGorgons) images a scale can be derived; the Gorgon is roughly 4" across and 8" long. Admittedly the problem there is Ork Wartrukk Syndrome.