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ReDavide
16-05-2005, 19:39
This strange situation came up during my last game. We just diced it off and swore to ask Portent what the real answer is:

The Evil Red Circle Character/Unit/whatever-thingy wants to charge Unit A.

He can see Unit A, and can measure a straight obstacle-free line to Unit A that is within his charge distance. The charge is therefore valid.

He is in Unit A's flank arc, so normally it would count as a flank charge.

But Unit B is sitting there blocking any straight line to Unit A's flank.

How does this get resolved? Does the charge count as a front charge, since all the red dot can see is Unit A's front? Or does he make his charge move and then just get shuffled over to Unit A's flank since he was in the flank arc?

Riddy
16-05-2005, 19:53
Well i'm not to sure on this one. The fact that all he can see is the front of the unit vs the fact that he is in the flank arc AND may make one wheel during charging so theoretically he could charge the flank if he could wheel and strike the flank after he is free of unit B but of course this is rediculous if you think of it in real terms. As a rule of thumb whenever i play games if something wouldn't happen it doesn't and we just play it as it would most likley happen in an actual battle. So i guess it just depends on if you want to play to the exact letter of the rules, or if you want to play it for realism.

skavenguy13
16-05-2005, 21:23
Unfortunately, the rules of Warhammer are sometimes totally agaisnt logic. I'm pretty sure you have to charge the flank, even if it's stupid and unrealistic.

Major Defense
17-05-2005, 17:07
I disagree. To take the rules by their literal interpretation, no charge may be made. You can only ever charge a unit at the particular side that you are on. If you cannot see/reach that facing of the unit because of terrain or other units then you can't charge. So that red dot can't charge the front of unit A because he is not in that 90 degree arc and he cannot charge the flank of unit A because unit B blocks his charge.

Festus
17-05-2005, 17:51
Hi

No offense, but this seems stupid to me:

The red dot can see the unit and is able to move into contact with it.
It seems to be a single model with US1 and thus able to move as a skirmisher...

I do agree that a charge would not be possible if the charger were a ranked unit/monster (I'd allow it as a front charge nonetheless as an oponent or GM), but the single model should have no problem at all.

just my 2c

Greetings
Festus

Major Defense
17-05-2005, 19:19
Hi

No offense, but this seems stupid to me:

The red dot can see the unit and is able to move into contact with it.
It seems to be a single model with US1 and thus able to move as a skirmisher...

I do agree that a charge would not be possible if the charger were a ranked unit/monster (I'd allow it as a front charge nonetheless as an oponent or GM), but the single model should have no problem at all.

So what if units A and B are enemies facing each other and the red dot is in unit B's army. Now do you still think that the red dot should be able to blow off the rules and make that flank charge? I think not. If you're going to try to use "realism" to explain why he should be able to charge then this whole thread is useless because it's enough of a stretch already that a single man on foot can bring a column of 20+ troopers to a grinding halt.

I hear a lot of people complain about the rules for movement and charges. Most of the whining involves them wanting to be able to charge units without earning it by moving into position properly or wanting to be able to flank a unit just because the frontage is blocked. These people should either play Empire (with detachments that can break these rules) or think ahead before moving their units blindly across the table. I suppose a third option would be to stop whining.

In closing, that charge in the picture is 100% illegal.

Festus
18-05-2005, 14:18
Hi

You are comparing apples and oranges her:

What if the red dot is a *cough* unit *cough* of two infantry models?
Then the charge is perfectly legal, as the unit can indeed wheel once to come into contact with the enemy's flanks (which is the side they are facing).

If the rules allow this and not the other, why bother with painstakingly converted minis and terrain at all? Why not play one of the highly regarded AH games, where you have counters and hex-grids?

I still think that the most important point is: If it feels right, go for it...

... and I like to refer you to p.282, 2nd column, 2nd paragraph, 1st and 2nd sentence...

Greetings
festus

mageith
19-05-2005, 01:39
He can see Unit A, and can measure a straight obstacle-free line to Unit A that is within his charge distance. The charge is therefore valid.

He is in Unit A's flank arc, so normally it would count as a flank charge.

There are no exceptions to this rule. It would be a flank charge.

But Unit B is sitting there blocking any straight line to Unit A's flank.

How does this get resolved? Does the charge count as a front charge, since all the red dot can see is Unit A's front? Or does he make his charge move and then just get shuffled over to Unit A's flank since he was in the flank arc?
Most folks count the corner as being in both flanks. So if Unit A can reach the corner:

So "Once the charging unit has touched its opponent the combat is committed and it only remains to align the antagonists where the charge has been made at an angle." (265).

Suggestions for doing this include aligning the charged unit and sliding over. The point is it has to be done. I'd recommend aligning the target unit.

Ith

Major Defense
19-05-2005, 10:22
Holy crap, that's it, Mageith! Unit A would align to the skirmisher, unrealistic as it may seem. I recant my entire post! I also wonder if this quirk can be used to turn a ranked unit on the field to gain a flanking advantage with yet another unit hitting A???

mageith
19-05-2005, 13:49
Holy crap, that's it, Mageith! Unit A would align to the skirmisher, unrealistic as it may seem. I recant my entire post! I also wonder if this quirk can be used to turn a ranked unit on the field to gain a flanking advantage with yet another unit hitting A???

"The Evil Red Circle Character/Unit/whatever-thingy wants to charge Unit A." It is not necessarily a skirmisher.

I can't see, however, where the rules for skirmishers would prevent this, if both player's agreed. The point is, though, they they MUST agree to something to make the battleline and charge work.

As to you last question, the zone of unit is determined "at the start of the Movement phase.", so no.

Mage ith

gortexgunnerson
19-05-2005, 17:03
By the rules the red dot can't charge unless he can get into the side with only 1 wheel! Which can be done by single model or skirmish unit other then that its a case of charge B or move into a better position.

I think the making battleline work idea cannot be called in due to the impractical nature of the charge, chargeing past a unit within swiping distance and also it is the obligation of the attacker to rank up with the defender unless the defenders are skirmishers in which case they must rank up against the model.

However if I liked my oppenent I would let this off most of the time as long as he wasnt totally ripping the **** just for ease of gameplay. But I bel;ieve the owner of unts A and B is in the right and can choose whether to allow it or not

mageith
20-05-2005, 01:49
I think the making battleline work idea cannot be called

It is not just an idea. It is a rule.

in due to the impractical nature of the charge, chargeing past a unit within swiping distance and also it is the obligation of the attacker to rank up with the defender unless the defenders are skirmishers in which case they must rank up against the model.

Methinks you have actually read the rules to which I pointed. The very purpose of the battleline 'idea' is to deal with impractical (GW calls them awkward) charges.

The obligation of the attacker to rank up with the defender is merely a convention. Here's the rule:

"Page 53: ALIGNING THE COMBATANTS: If it is impractical to align a unit properly because of interposing terrain, other models, or whatever, then it is acceptable to re-align the charged unit as well (or instead) so that the battlelines remain neat. A confusing situation might arise when interposing terrain or models make it impossible to align the whole unit, for example. Rather than clutter the rules with endless clarifications, we have included further examples in the back of this book."

I've highlighted the relevant section. The section even uses your word "impractical".

[b]
However if I liked my oppenent I would let this off most of the time as long as he wasnt totally ripping the **** just for ease of gameplay. But I bel;ieve the owner of unts A and B is in the right and can choose whether to allow it or not[/QUOTE]
This would be a house rule. In most cases, the rules actually determine what we can and cannot do. Of course, players can agree to anything they want.

Mage Ith

T10
20-05-2005, 15:47
This is apparently one of those awkward rules situations that crop up at times. In this situation I recommend a degree of give-and-take.

First, your opponent can allow you to make the charge. It would be generous of him, considering the fact the the simples solution to the problem is to avoid the situation altogether.

Second, you can disregard the flanking attack and place the charger to the unit's front. This would certainly be most fair if your charging the flank would negate rank bonuses etc.

As for rules, I guess that story has already been told.

-T10

gortexgunnerson
22-05-2005, 01:10
Mageith I think it is wrong to so strongly champion the letter of the rules. When You seem to be advocating one of 2 things:

firstly that the unit be allowed to charge the front of the unit which is not allowed as the unit lies within the flank arch

or

secondly that the defending unit must redress to face its flank to the enemy hence removing all idea of protected flanks in the game

What I am actually saying is not that the red dot cannot move into the unit and then the two be aligned by moving either party (as you pointed out and I agree) what I am actually saying is that the unit cannot be realigned before contact with the red dot so that the red dot can make contact with the side of the unit which it couldn't do normally.

mageith
22-05-2005, 10:32
Mageith I think it is wrong to so strongly champion the letter of the rules. When You seem to be advocating one of 2 things:

firstly that the unit be allowed to charge the front of the unit which is not allowed as the unit lies within the flank arch

or

secondly that the defending unit must redress to face its flank to the enemy hence removing all idea of protected flanks in the game

Number two. However, in the case at hand, the unit ALREADY failed to protect its flank. Next time, the player must do better.

I agree that this rule is at the edges of reasonability. I wasn't happy when the 'corners count' rule was added to 6e. It's resulted on all sorts of ugliness on the table. In addition to this situation, many clipping problems result.

As for defending the letter of the rules, well, that's what I do most of the time. When folks get on a rules forum, that, hopefully, is what they are looking for. They wouldn't be here if all players played realistically and reasonably. They'd work it out for themselves, then.

Sixth edition has been out for many years now. Most rules questions asked these days are at the very edge, the blurry edge, of the rules. Most common rule questions have been asked and answered or conventions have arisen.

What I am actually saying is not that the red dot cannot move into the unit and then the two be aligned by moving either party (as you pointed out and I agree) what I am actually saying is that the unit cannot be realigned before contact with the red dot so that the red dot can make contact with the side of the unit which it couldn't do normally.

OK, here's the difference of opinion, I think. You say side. I say corner. The corner counts as the side. If the red dot reaches the corner, it has reached the side of the unit as required. When it comes to rules something has to take priority. In this case, IMO, it is PROPER CONTACT. Once that has been established, alignment must be worked out.

If corners don't count for charging, then the unit has properly protected its flanks. In this case, technically, its not the blurry edge that's in question but the sharp corner.

Mage Ith

Lordmonkey
25-05-2005, 13:32
Hmmm...

if you want my opinion, then yes, the red dot MAY charge. It seems blindingly obvious as the target is within line of sight and, i presume, range.

Supposing the red dot could wheel once past unit B to at least come into contact with the very edge of the flank i'd say it would be a legal flank charge. Again, this is provided there is enough distance left in the charge to do so.

Personally i'd chalk this one up to common sense. Sure, Mr. Red is in unit A's flanking zone, but it seems more sensible that he'd go straight for what he can actually see.

I presume your friend really, REALLY wants to get Mr. Red into the flank to start shredding things? If you look at this situation on the flipside, what if Mr. Red were some sort of character with frenzy? The charge would therefore be obligatory - would it make sense to deny the charge just because he can't gain the flank advantage (avoiding challengers, etc)?

My solution is therefore simply to allow the flank charge were it possible via legal charge maneuvers. If this is not possible, charge the front. A charge is a charge, wherever it ends up.

Crazy Harborc
26-05-2005, 00:15
The players agreed to what happened being the way it would be handled. They did it, it is past. How to handle it next time is not IMHO likely to be resolved in a way to make everyone happy.Don't forget the rules writers stated in the rulebook that not all circumstances were covered in the rulebook. I suggest using the same method again, dice off time.

Lordmonkey
26-05-2005, 00:41
Dicing off can be ok, but we are talking about a character here. Could be pivotal for the game, which is another reason why i suggested the charge be allowed, but the argument be resolved to whether it be a front or flank charge. That is something worth rolling for, IMHO.

Just a thought :p