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Milgram
26-10-2009, 22:08
this came up in a discussion lately: how do you handle fleeing/pursuing units with random movement?

our suggestion is to roll for the actual movement range (e.g. 2d6) and if it is >7 then you move 3d6, else 2d6. but it feels awkward - but slightly less as awkward as it feels to just take 2d6 for squighoppers.

how do random movement skirmishers (namely squighoppers) form up when being charged? do you roll for the movement range to see who can form up to the charging enemy and who has to stand in the back?

Sirroelivan
26-10-2009, 22:22
Just use the actual random movement? Spawns for example move 2D6, so that would be equivalent with a unit has a movement value of 6" or less.

Nurgling Chieftain
26-10-2009, 23:20
...Unless you roll a 7 or higher... ;) I'm trying to figure out why I've never heard this question before.

Godgolden
26-10-2009, 23:46
i know nurgling, a spawn somewhere must of rolled to run down something... i guess i would roll 2 dice for prersue, sounds about right, if there is a right.

Axis
27-10-2009, 00:43
If their random move is 2d6 then they pursue 2d6, if is 3d6 then they pursue 3d6.

Hoppers do form up.

EldarBishop
27-10-2009, 02:35
You have to remember that things with "random" movement don't get to double movement for charging!

So, I'd say just roll the 2d6 (or 3d6 in case of things like a Slaanesh Spawn).

xragg
27-10-2009, 04:21
If their random move is 2d6 then they pursue 2d6, if is 3d6 then they pursue 3d6.

Hoppers do form up.

Correct. If a model has random movement (2d6 or 3d6), it just uses that random movement (2d6 or 3d6) for pursues, overruns, and flees.

As for hoppers, whatever you rolled for their movement that movement phase is their movement. Once you have determined that the hoppers will be charging, move the closest model into contact followed by the rest just like any other skirmisher unit. The only difference is their movement value will vary from turn to turn.

Nurgling Chieftain
27-10-2009, 04:35
The question was regarding hoppers being charged.

So I'm seeing a lot of consensus on the 2d6=2d6, 3d6=3d6. Aside from the obviousness of it, is that brokered by a rule I'm missing?

Axis
27-10-2009, 05:17
The hoppers being charged is even simpler since charging skirmishers makes no use of the (skirmishers) move value whatsoever.

I don't know of any specific rule that means 2d6/3d6 is their pursue distance. The other option makes sense. It just is way less intuitive.

WLBjork
27-10-2009, 05:44
The truth is there are no rules in the BRB for random movement values (indeed, for any random characteristic) - rather an irritating oversight given how long units with randomly generated movement values have been a part of the game.

I can see it going one of 4 ways:

1)All units with random movement flee and pursue 3D6, as the most common result is 7 or more (21/36 for 2D6 and 206/216 for 3D6) [used 7 due to it being the break point here].

2)Use the units random movement characteristic.

3)Generate a value, then determine from that.

4)Use the last determined value to establish the dice required.

Of those, 4 would seem to be the worst. Remembering values like this isn't a great idea IMO.

3 seems closest to RAW, but 1 and 2 look to be more elegant.

Nurgling Chieftain
27-10-2009, 06:31
The hoppers being charged is even simpler since charging skirmishers makes no use of the (skirmishers) move value whatsoever.Skirmishers being charged up rank up in the same way they do when charging - meaning those that don't have the move to reach the front line rank up behind, even if there was room at the front.

Condottiere
27-10-2009, 07:52
7 has always been the critical point in movement, so anything below that pursues 2d6, and at that value or above 3d6. I suspect that M11 would be 4d6, while M3 seems to be 2d6-1.

Milgram
27-10-2009, 09:53
for aligning purposes - no matter whether it is for charging or being charged - you could even argue for 3d6x2 to see who can align and who has to stand in the back. meaning in effect that if one squighopper reaches you, in most cases all of them would reach you.

xragg
27-10-2009, 23:29
The question was regarding hoppers being charged.

So I'm seeing a lot of consensus on the 2d6=2d6, 3d6=3d6. Aside from the obviousness of it, is that brokered by a rule I'm missing?

Its sort of a rule buried in another rule. They dont point blank clearly state random moves (2d6 and 3d6) always move randomly, but do have all the rules it would apply to point back to the same section. Fleeing and the Compulsory Moves section. Fleeing is an example of compulsory movement and they always move a randomly determined distance. Hoppers and the like move a randomly determined distance by definition. So, why would you average their possible movement to determine what their randomly determined distance should be, when by definition they already move a randomly determined distance. Its like using the wheel to invent the wheel.

edit:

7 has always been the critical point in movement, so anything below that pursues 2d6, and at that value or above 3d6. I suspect that M11 would be 4d6, while M3 seems to be 2d6-1.

There is no 4d6/2d6-1 as flyers with M20 still roll 3d6 and dwarves with M3 still roll 2d6.

Nurgling Chieftain
27-10-2009, 23:42
...Dwarves go 2d6-1.

Axis
28-10-2009, 02:53
Technically both of you are right. Dwarfs still roll 2d6.. you just subtract one...

xragg
28-10-2009, 03:47
Technically both of you are right. Dwarfs still roll 2d6.. you just subtract one...

Thats sorta what I was thinking. Kinda of like how skaven get +1 to their rolls when fleeing, I thought dwarves got a -1 penalty to their rolls due to being dwarves and not cause they are movement 3.

Nurgling Chieftain
28-10-2009, 04:24
What you SAID was "there is no ... 2d6-1". :p

Whether dwarves move slower because they're slow because they're dwarves or because they're dwarves which just happen to also be slow strikes me as the sort of question that any designer would go :wtf: over. :p

Condottiere
28-10-2009, 06:29
Flying is a special rule that doesn't consider marching, and it's capped at M20; M11 would be 22" for charge/march movement.

xragg
28-10-2009, 08:03
@Nurgling-This is getting off topic. I cant off the top of my head think of something the normally moves M3 or less besides dwarves, but what about eagles (M2) and warhawks (M1) in situations where they are unable to fly (such as with the stormbanner). Would they flee 2d6 or 2d6-1. The 2d6-1 is only mentioned in the dwarf book, but I dont know how its mentioned exactly since I dont have that book. Anyway, the birds would move 2d6 in those rare occasions. I am sure the designers like to mock the dwarves for their stumpy legs, but dont care that birds run slow when used to flying away. Heck, when really scared or overtly excited (fleeing and overruns!), some birds can run pretty fast (see ostrich) :D

@Condottiere-I am not sure how the double move of charging/marching really changes anything, but like flying movement, random movement is also never doubled.

Sorry if I got this thread sidetracked, but does anyone have something to add or refute about the first half of my earlier post?

H33D
29-10-2009, 00:32
The Dwarf Rulebook states that all Dwarves excluding the Gyrocopter have a special rule called Resolute.

Resolute is the rule that modifies Dwarf flee/pursue rolls to 2d6-1.

This has nothing to do with them being slow, in fact the special rule specifies that they move 2d6-1 because they are reluctant to abandon their position and would rather fight on.

Basically, dwarves flee/pursue at 2d6-1 instead of 2d6 because they have bigger stones than the other armies, not because their movement is less than 4 which is something someone clearly made up :S

EldarBishop
29-10-2009, 06:47
Actually, I think that 2d6-1 for "slow movement" is something carried over from earlier editions of WH.

Condottiere
29-10-2009, 07:29
They do have M3; to make up for it, they may always march.

Milgram
29-10-2009, 07:49
like heavy armour = -1M when on foot?

Condottiere
29-10-2009, 10:58
That's a superceded rule, though not invalid in the larger scheme of things.

Gazak Blacktoof
29-10-2009, 11:21
like heavy armour = -1M when on foot?

The rule was applied to heavy armour and shield, and applied equally to infantry and cavalry.

The rule is still present in warhammer ancient battles.

Heavy cavalry only pursue and flee 2D6 because the weight of their armour reduces them to movement 6.