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Storak
01-11-2009, 08:12
Static combat resolution has lost weight in this game. elite infantry and cavalry have become more powerful (basically they got a second attack). quite a lot of units seem to easily reach that magical combat resolution 5 by (mostly) kills. and those units have the ability to do it over and over and over again. (ASF, cavalry with high base strength, ...)
and/or the ability to stick in the fight (stubborn..), until the static combat res has been brought down enough, to finish the job.

i did the math on a couple of High elf units (small units of them, cost about as much as most blocks) and on chaos knights (trying to figure out, how many i have to kill before they reach combat)

typical static combat res units would be empire sword men and orcs with choppa and shield. 25 with standard and musician cost about 175 points.

3 khorne knights (S5) for example will beat the swordsmen (kill 4.2 plus 1 standard), while they are just a little bit too weak to beat the orcs (3.3 + 1, and even 4 knights only tie with 4 kills +1). and at least they risk losing frenzy on such a close fight...
in the third phase, combat res is down to 4...

so i wonder, who has some experience with units that tend to break static combat res of 5? and who is willing to show us some math?

Storak
01-11-2009, 10:52
ouch. my early morning post did contain a pretty bad error: i forgot about the horses....

the frenzied horses will do an additional 1.7 wounds to the swordsmen (ouch), bringing it to a total combat res of 6.8, while the orcs will take another 1.25 wounds, doing a total of 5.5 combat res. bad news for both units.

Papawolf
01-11-2009, 12:10
yeah, u have done the math on what are one of the hardest hitting units in the game which also have the almost unique ability to hit just as hard in the second round of combat as they are consistently strength 5.
you have also not factored in the return attacks, although very limited, especially with swordsmen, they have to be done, the unit champ of empire swordsmen will do 1/18 wounds to a chaos knight and an orc champion with two choppas will do 1/8 wounds on the first round of combat. these are not significant amounts but in a unit with great weapons the balance can be swayed.
you must also consider the chance of the unit breaking becuase a lot of hard hitting units will only be hard hitting in the first round of combat.
if you are just asking for units which beat a combat res of 5 for around 175 points then there are surprisingly few. these are against empire swordsmen. sorry if my math is wrong, i dont have a calculator on me so this is all in my head
3 basic blood knights on the charge will do 5 wounds (riders) + 1 wound (mounts)
5 cold one knights, fc, (175 pts) do 5.33 wounds (riders) + 1.77 wounds (mounts) + standard. so they are one of the most successful alhough they will take wounds easier
3 ironguts with standard. 1 kill from gut charges + 3.75 wounds from ogres + standard. they will also take wounds very easily though with only a 5+ save
its a difficult topic to quantify becuase you will rarely find equally pointed units fighting each other. in general, heavy cavalry, most monster units, some heavy infantry. particularly hard chariots and the occasional monster will basically, kick the c r a p out of a small unit of light infantry with no characters in it.

Harwammer
01-11-2009, 13:06
12 savage orc big unz with extra choppa and standard will make mincemeat of many 175 point block infantry on the charge. Typically they will strip a rank every round. Even in subsequent rounds (no choppa bonus) they should still do okay.

7 wide vs choppa/shield boyz:
7.8 wounds, 1 rank, 1 standard (choppa bonus) = 10CR
4.7 wounds, 1 rank, 1 standard (on-going combats) = 7CR

6 wide vs swordsmen:
6.3 wounds, 1 rank, 1 standard (choppa bonus) = 8CR
4 wounds, 1 rank, 1 standard (on-going combats) = 6CR


Unfortunately savage orc big unz are infantry so rarely get the charge. Happily frenzy nullifies their poor Ld, meaning you can go magic heavy to encourage some hand of gork / warpath action.

Its rather a shame savage orc big unz are a 0-1 choice (even with Gorbad, I think).


NB see how much better better the swordsmen are at taking the charge; their narrow front only allows 6 orcs to fight them.

Leogun_91
01-11-2009, 13:14
Yes there are alot of units that can break static combat resolution, but why shouldn't there be? These units doesn't break the balance of the game (I am aware that some of them are unbalanced but that is due to them not costing enough pts), there are counters to these units in every armybook. And Heavy cavalry are supposed to do just this, that is the point of taking them, if heavy cavalry couldn't break combat resolution they would just be a fancy meatshield.

Wakerofgods
01-11-2009, 13:57
It's the characters that tip it for me.

I really like there being elite units that can do this, I think it adds a lot to the game.

But I hate these same elite units with a character in them (or stubborn or regeneration), well usually two characters one a BSB, that get them to the point that they can't just break ranked units but can take on being surrounded and come out on top.

I hate 'deathstar' units. Frankly, I dislike fighting characters from a lot of armies. Given how good elite units have gotten I would like to see fighting characters brought down to about 75% of their current power or less. As well as this regenerating units and stubborn should be harder to mix with fighting chracters.

InsideReticle
01-11-2009, 14:34
So then absolutely no one would take fighting characters because they're already not as good as heavy magic builds in most cases?

Gaargod
01-11-2009, 15:00
@Waker: What you actually mean to say is this:

'I want all character to be reduced in power significantly'

Fighty characters are currently a subpar choice for most armies - often used only for leadership OR on a big scary mount OR as a bsb.

WoC are a prime example of this:
Unit of 5 khorne knights with a banner = 250pts
Bare-ass naked Chaos lord with flail, mount, mark of khorne, shield = 267

Against saurus infantry (i like using saurus as examples, they're solid infantry - if you can break them, you can break most stuff)

Knights with 15 attacks hitting on 3s: 10
wounding on 3s: 20/3
6+ save: 100/18 = 5.6 wounds
Horsies with 10 attacks, hitting on 4s: 5 hits
wounding on 4s: 2.5 wounds
5+ save: 5/3 wounds = 1.7 wounds

So, with a bit of rounding, the knights do 7 wounds.

Assuming a normal build of saurus as 18, 6x3, that leaves 5 saurus to attack back with 10 attacks
Hitting on 4s: 5
Wounding on 4s: 2.5
2+ save: 5/12 = 0.4 wounds

So, roughly the knights win by 4 (7 kills + banner versus 2 ranks, banner, outnumber). Which is enough to put even saurus into severe leadership problems. Next turn knights will likely autobreak saurus. The saurus, note, were costing 228, so a reasonable price equivelence.


Lord with 6 attacks, hitting on 3s: 4 hits
Killing on 2s: 20/6 = 3.33

Smaller frontage means only 3 saurus left to attack back
Hitting on 5s: 2 hits
Wounding on 5s: 0.67
4+ save = 0.33

Saurus win combat by 1.

Both units have the same job really - kill stuff. The knights just do it more efficiently(obviously, knights+lord = dead saurus unit, but that means they're costing a LOT more).

Storak
01-11-2009, 15:13
yeah, u have done the math on what are one of the hardest hitting units in the game which also have the almost unique ability to hit just as hard in the second round of combat as they are consistently strength 5.

and i see them as a trend: there simply are multiple units now, that have multiple attacks at a high strength every turn of combat. and units that strike first with multiple high strength attacks.


you have also not factored in the return attacks, although very limited, especially with swordsmen, they have to be done, the unit champ of empire swordsmen will do 1/18 wounds to a chaos knight and an orc champion with two choppas will do 1/8 wounds on the first round of combat. these are not significant amounts but in a unit with great weapons the balance can be swayed.

the champion will most likely be dead. and the damage done by a single surviving rank and file model is often the same as the rounding accuracy...



you must also consider the chance of the unit breaking becuase a lot of hard hitting units will only be hard hitting in the first round of combat.

i think those units are fine. i am looking at units that can beat the static res consistently over multiple rounds, or very decisively during the first turn. or that will stay in the fight most likely and have a reasonable chance to win over time (stubborn..)



if you are just asking for units which beat a combat res of 5 for around 175 points then there are surprisingly few. these are against empire swordsmen. sorry if my math is wrong, i dont have a calculator on me so this is all in my head
3 basic blood knights on the charge will do 5 wounds (riders) + 1 wound (mounts)
5 cold one knights, fc, (175 pts) do 5.33 wounds (riders) + 1.77 wounds (mounts) + standard. so they are one of the most successful alhough they will take wounds easier
3 ironguts with standard. 1 kill from gut charges + 3.75 wounds from ogres + standard. they will also take wounds very easily though with only a 5+ save
its a difficult topic to quantify becuase you will rarely find equally pointed units fighting each other. in general, heavy cavalry, most monster units, some heavy infantry. particularly hard chariots and the occasional monster will basically, kick the c r a p out of a small unit of light infantry with no characters in it.

thanks for the numbers! but i don t see blocks of 25 choppa/shield orcs as a "small unit of light infantry"...

Stuffburger
01-11-2009, 15:16
I don't feel that hammer units are dominating the game- sure they can mow down most cheap infantry but that's what goblins are there for: to be mowed down. Hammer units also have some pretty serious downsides. Frenzied units can be baited around the board so they never see combat, groups of 10-12 elite infantry tend to be very vulnerable to shooting and magic casualties and with such a small flank only 1-2 models are fighting back on a flank charge.

It's entirely possible for a flanking 71 point unit of 5 goblin spider riders to break a nasty pimped out 280 point unit of khorne knights. Only 1 of the 8 attacks needs to get through and the spiders cannot be attacked back, and then they outnumber, flank and have one more kill. 4 Spiders- 1 1/3 hits, 2/3 poisoned hit, for 1 wound = 1/6 casualty. 4 goblins = 1.33 hits = .67 wounds = .12 dead knight. So a roughly 28% chance for the knights to not be able to retaliate. Not great odds but goblin cav are some of the worst fighters in the game- the odds are much better for a chariot or any other kind of cavalry.

catbarf
01-11-2009, 15:23
Ogres are pretty good at breaking stuff. A unit of 4 Ironguts, for less than 200pts, has 12 attacks at S6 on the charge. You're looking at 4-5 kills against most enemies.

Tae
01-11-2009, 16:13
A Bretonnian unit with the Banner of the Lady (iirc - the one that negates rank bonuses for enemy units in b2b).

Papawolf
01-11-2009, 18:19
with the more recent additions to fantasy. light infantry blocks without stubborn/regen/ability to stand back up, are basically not seen in competative lists anymore so a base combat res of 5 is sadly, almost irrelevant nowadays and will rarely stop a unit from losing combat and dieing.

AtmaTheWanderer
01-11-2009, 18:24
All the reasons listed are why I have started falling back towards equipping my light infantry blocks with spears whenever possible. Since it's almost a given my front rank is going to die these days, I want the possibility of at least getting a few return swings.

Stepping forward to die but not stepping forward to swing is probably my biggest complaint.

sulla
01-11-2009, 19:12
Stepping forward to die but not stepping forward to swing is probably my biggest complaint.Heh, chaos warriors with great weapons and the mark of khorne are in complete agreement with you on this one...:evilgrin:

Maoriboy007
01-11-2009, 19:32
Greater Demons a re pretty good at beating Static Res.

Cambion Daystar
01-11-2009, 19:49
Only the Bloodthirster, not the other 3

danny-d-b
01-11-2009, 19:50
Only the Bloodthirster, not the other 3
I don't know the other 3 can just sit and magic you to death, and the keeper could prob do quite well at ripping through light infantry

Cambion Daystar
01-11-2009, 19:56
Against a fully ranked unit with full command he would need to hit and to wound with al of his 6 attacks (or his 7 if he bought the handweapon gift). So NO, he is not good at it.

And doing magic is not "breaking SCR".

Tae
01-11-2009, 20:03
Against a fully ranked unit with full command he would need to hit and to wound with al of his 6 attacks (or his 7 if he bought the handweapon gift). So NO, he is not good at it.

And doing magic is not "breaking SCR".

Assuming it didn't take the other gift that can make enemy characters smack their own unit, which (depending on the character) can make for a very much 'broken' SCR

danny-d-b
01-11-2009, 20:10
Against a fully ranked unit with full command he would need to hit and to wound with al of his 6 attacks (or his 7 if he bought the handweapon gift). So NO, he is not good at it.

And doing magic is not "breaking SCR".

yep but using magic to remove 1 or 2 ranks then smaching through the light infantry in combat is

Cambion Daystar
01-11-2009, 20:24
Assuming it didn't take the other gift that can make enemy characters smack their own unit, which (depending on the character) can make for a very much 'broken' SCR

Unlikely to happen, seeing as most characters worth using it on are at least Ld8 or 9.

Storak
01-11-2009, 20:58
thanks for all the replies.

i agree, that only the BT is really good at breaking static combat res, the other greater daemons aren t. the KoS can break units in CC over time, but too slow to be point effective..
but i would like to see more math on weapon combinations and on other monsters.. anyone got some results?

i strongly disagree with the term "light infantry" for the units i described above. 25 shield orcs are not light infantry.
apart skirmishers (and there are exceptions among those...), i would consider units like nightgoblins without banners (to stop giving away VPs) as "light infantry". ranked missile troops or small units of infantry (12 savage orcs with 2 choppas..) would also qualify.

the units i mentioned in the topic, cost nearly 200 points, taking up about 10% of the points in a typical game. and you would want to take multiple of those (at least you wanted to do that in the past..) that is simply too expensive for a "semi-light infantry" unit, that can t take a charge from most units.

i agree with the things that have been said about characters. in the past, combi charges where the way to break blocks: chariot and unit, unit and char or elite unit and flanker.
all of this is gone, when a simple charge from the front breaks the unit..

Storak
01-11-2009, 21:18
I don't feel that hammer units are dominating the game- sure they can mow down most cheap infantry but that's what goblins are there for: to be mowed down.

i don t consider 175 points cheap. i am not talking about bow gobbos without a save. and i am pretty sure, that hammer units are dominating the close combat phase of the game, while static combat res has lost importance.


Hammer units also have some pretty serious downsides. Frenzied units can be baited around the board so they never see combat,

i agree. actually frenzy units are rather fair: they have serious disadvantages, and bad rolls will cost them there frenzy, and after that static combat res has a real chance.
in that sense, i would say that frenzy units "deserve" a better chance against blocks, than other units.


groups of 10-12 elite infantry tend to be very vulnerable to shooting and magic casualties and with such a small flank only 1-2 models are fighting back on a flank charge.

the problem here is, that those 10 elite fighter cost about the same as the block does. and they often come with additional advantages: high move and Ld, stubborn/ItP/fear, can carry magic items/banners that support their entire army, ...
they also most often either bring armour or belong to shooty armies.

the units that can catch their flanks, might die horribly to ASF attacks (or after a botched roll) and will definitely lose the second combat phase. all of that at a cost of about half of what the unit costs..


It's entirely possible for a flanking 71 point unit of 5 goblin spider riders to break a nasty pimped out 280 point unit of khorne knights. Only 1 of the 8 attacks needs to get through and the spiders cannot be attacked back, and then they outnumber, flank and have one more kill. 4 Spiders- 1 1/3 hits, 2/3 poisoned hit, for 1 wound = 1/6 casualty. 4 goblins = 1.33 hits = .67 wounds = .12 dead knight. So a roughly 28% chance for the knights to not be able to retaliate. Not great odds but goblin cav are some of the worst fighters in the game- the odds are much better for a chariot or any other kind of cavalry.

the gobbos have to pass a fear test for that charge...

Papawolf
01-11-2009, 21:18
the units i mentioned in the topic, cost nearly 200 points, taking up about 10% of the points in a typical game. that is simply too expensive for a "semi-light infantry" unit, that can t take a cgharge from most units.

..

what would you call this type of unit then. they are not heavy infantry because they do not have a good enough save to qualify and they are not elite combatants because they do not have a high enough strength/killing ability.
i know this is kinda a subtopic but i am interested to know

back to the main point. due to the large number of hard hitting units and units that can take a lot of damage without dying/breaking from combat. if you want to take units that don't hit very hard and only have a CR of 5 then you realistically need a lot of ranged support so that your enemies' units are thinned and don't hit so hard when they reach your lines

if you want more statistics on more units then put a list of units you want done and i will run the math if you cba to do it (Y)

Storak
01-11-2009, 21:45
what would you call this type of unit then. they are not heavy infantry because they do not have a good enough save to qualify and they are not elite combatants because they do not have a high enough strength/killing ability.
i know this is kinda a subtopic but i am interested to know

i don t know either. those units tend to be described as "mainstay units". the full combat res, and attempts to win combat by restricting loses seems to be their defining aspect. but i don t know, whether an official term exists. terms like "elite" (killy or rare) and "heavy" (armour and/or toughness) describe different aspects of a unit and don t really help here, apart from the facts that those units are neither of them..

i think "medium infantry" (showing that they are there to fight and have some armour) would be the most obvious name, but i would stick to a description focusing on the combat resolution to avoid confusion. (i actually was not sure, which elvish units fall into this category, as spears reduce saves, and might cause casualties. DE spears, using HW & shield?)

it would be interesting to know, whether a typical better armoured unit (black orcs with shield: T4 and 3+ save) perform really better against the majority of attackers?!?


back to the main point. due to the large number of hard hitting units and units that can take a lot of damage without dying/breaking from combat. if you want to take units that don't hit very hard and only have a CR of 5 then you realistically need a lot of ranged support so that your enemies' units are thinned and don't hit so hard when they reach your lines

my original thought was this (planning for a battle against HE, that hasn t happened so far): for every block of 25 orcs i take (they are considered to be one of the best choices in the book..), he can take a unit of 10 sword masters (or white lions) or 5 dragon princes.
and i need to reduce all those swordmasters to below 6 models, before i can engage them in combat...
and he might do some shooting/magic too...


if you want more statistics on more units then put a list of units you want done and i will run the math if you cba to do it (Y)

that is a nice offer. my idea behind the topic was this: i did the math, to figure out how many chaos knights i have to kill, before i can tackle them in CC. i guessed others have done similar things before.
if i had a list of units that i want to test, i could simply do it by myself. i am hoping that people post their own experiences, using units and combinations that tend to get used. (perhaps there are units that can break static combat res 5 even though one wouldn t expect them to do it?)
champions and/or magic items might make a big difference, and i simply think that multiple people could give more/better results in a shorter time...

so i am interested in the units that you are interested in :)

Idle Scholar
01-11-2009, 23:21
And Heavy cavalry are supposed to do just this, that is the point of taking them, if heavy cavalry couldn't break combat resolution they would just be a fancy meatshield.

Surely the advantage of a heavy cavalry unit lies in it's superior maneuverability in comparison to elite infantry with the same amount of killing power. If you make it good enough to reliably beat SCR5 on the charge then you don't need to arrange for a combi charge and an element of skill and gameplay is removed from the game.