PDA

View Full Version : Fell Bats = Infantry?



papabearshane
01-11-2009, 16:33
As a Vamp Count player I have always enjoyed the Ability to heal and Create new units, but The Ability to create 120 pts of Fell Bats with Invocation of Nehek is kinda Broaken. With a Caster Maxed Vamp Lord thats up to...
8 spells (Army power dice included+Master of the Black Arts+Dark Acolyte +1 Caster Lvl)
2+ to cast (+1 for Summon Craetures of the Night+1 for Skull Staff)
Thats the max potential of 960 pts a turn and 5760 pts in a 6 turn game. Even as a VC player i think this is a grose oversight by GW.
Dose anyone play Fell Bats as anything other then infantry?
Other ideas would be great as to how to deal with this situation.

EvC
01-11-2009, 17:04
There's a very simple way to deal with the situation- you can only summon as many bats as you have available. Sure you can summon 5760 points for Fell Bats in a game, but if you don't have 300 Fell Bats ready to go, then it's never going to happen. And if you have put together 300 Fell Bats- then fair play to you I say!

narrativium
01-11-2009, 17:09
Also: 3+ to cast. A natural 2 on the casting dice never casts.

Dr. Acula
01-11-2009, 17:27
Its a 3+ to cast though - the magic section of the rulebook says that spells fail on a 1 or 2 (I believe).

papabearshane
01-11-2009, 18:24
Thanks for the info. 300 Fell Bats would be a sight :-) this just brought up another question. Can you raise a unit to above its starting unit size restriction? Fell Bats 3-10, Dire Wolves 5-20. If not then its not even a question of 300 Fell Bats.

sulla
01-11-2009, 19:41
Thanks for the info. 300 Fell Bats would be a sight :-) this just brought up another question. Can you raise a unit to above its starting unit size restriction? Yes, if you have the relevant bloodline.

Kalandros
01-11-2009, 21:05
Yes, max unit size in the army book is only when purchasing units, there are no rules stating you cannot raise beyond that amount when you have Summon Creatures of the Night.

But yes, you could do some insanely big cloud of fellbats if you have all those models ;D

And in a tournament it'd be hilarious to do.

GenerationTerrorist
01-11-2009, 21:13
Or just plain nasty!

Fell Bats are my favourite unit in the VC army.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
01-11-2009, 22:13
I would love to see this in a game. Poop-your-pants funny.

Axis
01-11-2009, 23:28
i thought they were flyers... not infantry.

papabearshane
02-11-2009, 00:23
They are considered Infantry in the VC book just as Dire Wolves are considred Cavelry

papabearshane
02-11-2009, 00:26
I just might round up all the Halloween Toys everyone is discarding just to make it to 300 :-) might be fun to make.

zeekill
02-11-2009, 01:30
Sure if you want to build those models go ahead. But they are still just fell bats, meaning even a unit of 300 cant do much more than kill war machine crews and small units of fast calvary

GenerationTerrorist
02-11-2009, 01:37
Meh, a unit of 5 ties up a key enemy unit for a couple of turns if I am lucky, allowing me to bring forward my Ghouls/Varhulf/Cart centre-line to charge by turn 2 or 3, then smash the flank with some Blood Knights. Plus there is always the chance that the Fear factor might come into play.

Fell Bats are just awesome, as far as I am concerned. I'd NEVER field my VC army without atleast one unit of 5.

Shadowsinner
02-11-2009, 03:32
just watch out for angry anvils

AtmaTheWanderer
02-11-2009, 03:45
Or Warp Scrolls from Skaven.

Talk about a MUST dispel.

EvC
02-11-2009, 11:33
Fell Bats are indeed one of the best units in the VC army, and bat-spamming one of the greatest strengths. I thought it had mostly gone underused but at the UK GT I myself brought 15 Fell Bats (Max I had at any time was about 8, but it was great, especially after they were Siren Songed into a Keeper of Secrets: you aint going nowhere be-atch!), and there were many other players who similarly realised the strength of this power. The top-finishing player had around 28 models I believe, starting with 2 x 3 in a full on invo-spam list.

Just don't take the p*ss though, like a guy I've seen using individual Warhammer Quest Bat Swarm models as Fell Bats on 40mm bases...

Dr. Acula
02-11-2009, 12:00
The top-finishing player had around 28 models I believe, starting with 2 x 3 in a full on invo-spam list.


He does indeed have a lot. I've played his list before at our local GW and he uses them to basically build a line around the enemy before he runs in a mass ghoul charge/a large wraith unit to break you and run into said line of bats. They're absolutely horrible.

artyboy
02-11-2009, 14:42
Multi-wound flying units can be infantry?

Malorian
02-11-2009, 15:05
Personally I see it was a very weak loop-hole.

Sure you can raise a huge unit of fell bats but they don't get rank bonus's, they don't take away ranks, and with their bases being so big you can't get that many attacks in combat.

Better off just raising up ghouls if you ask me...

Fell bats are there to take out or tie up warmachines and no matter if they are 3 or 300 strong they are going to get the same job done.

narrativium
02-11-2009, 15:05
Well... a Vampire character with Flying Horror and Avatar of Death can benefit from a hand weapon and shield bonus as per infantry, and it's a multi-wound flying model. Fell Bats aren't flying cavalry or monsters, so perhaps they're flying infantry by default.

EvC
02-11-2009, 17:21
They are by default infantry, plus by virtue of the fact that they are listed as "infantry" in the back of the VC book.

The strength in raising huge numbers of them is more how Dr. Acula describes Malorian. I'm sure you know how good a proper invo-spam list can be, but don't you ever run out of things to do with Ghouls?

P.S. use for 30 Fell Bats over 3: to auto kill enemy units that run into them. To survive 301 nasty hits. To claim table quarters. To tie up nasty enemies and units for the rest of the game (For only 60 points)...

artyboy
02-11-2009, 17:31
I can see them being extremely useful. That's mostly because they fly. The unit would make an extremely effective screen and, as has already been mentioned, you could park them behind enemy lines to take out fleeing units. I'm going to have to get my hands on a bunch more of them so that I can give them a try.

Malorian
02-11-2009, 19:43
The unit would make an extremely effective screen and, as has already been mentioned, you could park them behind enemy lines to take out fleeing units. I'm going to have to get my hands on a bunch more of them so that I can give them a try.

Just raise zombies behind them... or anywhere... bats fly 20 but just moving your vampire and casting a 5+ spell does the same thing...


Anything you can do with fell bats you can do with something else just as easily and when the next VC book comes out you won't be stuck with a bunch of useless expensive models...

As far as loop holes go this one is VERY weak and I hate to see people wasting so much time in effort in it...

EvC
02-11-2009, 20:17
Yeah, moving your Vampire that you've got safely tucked away in your bunker... Zombies won't kill warmachines unless you're rather lucky. Given that almost every good VC list had an element of batspam at the GT (including mine), and that most opponents were very concerned over it, I don't think you should knock it til you've tried it. Great point about not having a bunch of useless models in the next edition though (I borrowed most of mine) :D

sulla
02-11-2009, 20:29
Personally I see it was a very weak loop-hole.

Sure you can raise a huge unit of fell bats but they don't get rank bonus's, they don't take away ranks, and with their bases being so big you can't get that many attacks in combat.


A firend of mine used to field a huge unit of furies. Seems like a silly idea until they start hitting your units in the flank and autobreaking you or tying them up for the entire game or until flank charged. They weren't required to kill anything to do their job well. Don't underestimate the utility of a big unbreakable unit of flyers in the hands of an inventive general.

Malorian
02-11-2009, 22:33
A firend of mine used to field a huge unit of furies. Seems like a silly idea until they start hitting your units in the flank and autobreaking you or tying them up for the entire game or until flank charged. They weren't required to kill anything to do their job well. Don't underestimate the utility of a big unbreakable unit of flyers in the hands of an inventive general.

Assuming they are over US 5 they they get 2 for having a rear charge.

Meanwhile the block has 3 ranks a banner and outnumber.

So kills aside the block starts with an advantage of 3...

All you are going to do is tie them up which is what anything else can do except you can raise zombies faster and can get away with congo lines.


And EvC there is a big difference between taking fell bats for hunting warmachines while taking advantage of being able to raise them faster and trying to push that loophole to the max and buying 300...

artyboy
03-11-2009, 01:06
Now that I see the argument for them I don't think that it's a loophole at all. Right there in the back of the book under infantry, there are the fel bats. They have a raising power that's practically tailored for them. A unit of raised zombies is worth 50 victory points. A unit of fel bats is worth 60. The fel bats are a little tougher but they're so much more maneuverable it's ridiculous. Honestly, I'll probably just use them when I'm running Count Mannfred. I'll be watching ebay for dirt cheap undead lots. I see them pop up cheap all the time but I've never thought twice about them. It's time to start.

sulla
03-11-2009, 05:48
Assuming they are over US 5 they they get 2 for having a rear charge.

Meanwhile the block has 3 ranks a banner and outnumber.

So kills aside the block starts with an advantage of 3...

All you are going to do is tie them up which is what anything else can do except you can raise zombies faster and can get away with congo lines.


They never charge blocks, they never charge rears. they go for flanks on cav. Unless it's chaos cav, it will be lucky to win combat by one a turn. Raising zombies is all well and good, but the bats are already on the tabletop. the zombies have to be raised and moved into the unit. That's 2 2-dice spells instead of 4 single dice invocations on the bats at +1 to cast. (Probably 3d6 worth of wounds)

Malorian
03-11-2009, 15:04
And the weak bats have to survive the shooting to get where they are going. Starting with 3 (which most do) mean that it isn't hard to wipe them out with a bit of shooting/magic.

And if you put enough IoN into them to make them shooting resistant they are now so large that it is hard to hide them from blocks plus obviously those magic dice weren't spent raising your own blocks so that they are weaker. And if the bats aren't going to take on enemy blocks, and your own blocks are too weak to take them on, then how will you deal with them?

Ramius4
03-11-2009, 15:19
Gee... Does anyone really believe that them being listed as infantry wasn't a typo?

They fly, hence they are fliers. They cannot enter buildings, characters cannot join them, and all that goes along with that.

The notion that they are infantry is simply absurd.

theunwantedbeing
03-11-2009, 15:28
Thats the max potential of 960 pts a turn and 5760 pts in a 6 turn game. Even as a VC player i think this is a grose oversight by GW.

Thats an absolute maximum.
The average in a game is substantially lower, more around the 100pt mark for that guy.
3+ to cast, sure but thats 8 casting, so we'll round up and say 6 castings.
Your opponent can easily dispel 2 of those.
So 4 castings, doing 3.5 wounds each. That's 14 wounds, fell bats have 2 wounds each, so 7 models raised.
20pts a model, so 140pts worth.

Nothing too scary really, they are only fell bats afterall and you just spend 8 powerdice trying to raise them rather than something else.

Add to that the models raised arent worth any VP to the enemy as they are added to a unit. Your just denying the enemy the VP that the unit cost when you bought it, which is only 60-200pts.

It's not as broken as you have lead yourself to belive.

Lord Dan
03-11-2009, 15:39
Its a 3+ to cast though - the magic section of the rulebook says that spells fail on a 1 or 2 (I believe).

I thought the skull staff was +1 to cast. I guess depending on how you read it, couldn't that mean the roll of a 2+ is actually a 3+? Or does the rulebook say any natural 1 or 2?

Nurgling Chieftain
03-11-2009, 15:51
Gee... Does anyone really believe that them being listed as infantry wasn't a typo?

They fly, hence they are fliers. They cannot enter buildings, characters cannot join them, and all that goes along with that.There is no unit type "fliers". It's a special rule/ability, not a unit type at all. Reference BRB page 7.

narrativium
03-11-2009, 15:56
I thought the skull staff was +1 to cast. I guess depending on how you read it, couldn't that mean the roll of a 2+ is actually a 3+? Or does the rulebook say any natural 1 or 2?

Page 107, 'Minimum 3 to Cast'.

N810
03-11-2009, 15:58
Wierd I allways figured they where swarms or something...

EvC
03-11-2009, 17:43
Gee... Does anyone really believe that them being listed as infantry wasn't a typo?

Gee, yes they do. Even if they weren't explicitly listed there, they would still be infantry.


They fly, hence they are fliers.

And fliers still have to be a type of unit, which can include infantry. Or does a Dragon stop being a "monster" because it flies?


They cannot enter buildings, characters cannot join them, and all that goes along with that.

Of course they can enter buildings- they're infantry. Characters cannot join them because they are fliers, and that is a special rule associated with fliers.


The notion that they are infantry is simply absurd.

The notion that they are fliers is correct and true... but was still probably an oversight on GW's part. It's not the end of the world though.

Zoolander
03-11-2009, 18:13
I have to agree with Mal here. FBs are a good unit, and they definitely have their uses (war machine hunting and march blocking for starters), but I would rather spend my time raising a horde of zombies that are easier to raise, easier to keep alive, break ranks, and outnumber the enemy. And zombies beat war machine crew all the time, unless we're talking about dwarves. Anything FBs can do, zombies do better, except for movement. But as Mal pointed out, Raise Dead has an 18" range.

Although, the look on your opponent's face when you summon 20 bats would be pretty funny.

As for them being infantry, that is clearly what the book states, so there is no question. Yes, it may have been a mistake, but being a flier does not mean they are not infantry.

Ramius4
03-11-2009, 20:39
Gee, yes they do. Even if they weren't explicitly listed there, they would still be infantry.

And fliers still have to be a type of unit, which can include infantry. Or does a Dragon stop being a "monster" because it flies?

Of course they can enter buildings- they're infantry. Characters cannot join them because they are fliers, and that is a special rule associated with fliers.

The notion that they are fliers is correct and true... but was still probably an oversight on GW's part. It's not the end of the world though.

Good points on the BRB definitions, you are only wrong on one point. Flyers cannot enter buildings and must treat them as impassable terrain (can't even land on top of one). We had to look this up in the BRB a couple months ago, though I don't recall if it was in the rules for flyers or buildings.

Hmmm. No, not the end of the world if they count as infantry as well, but that is something I would like to see a distinction between.

EvC
03-11-2009, 21:21
You don't recall if it was in on section or the other because it wasn't in either...

N810
04-11-2009, 15:10
(I haven't played against them yet)
Do the bats actualy fight in ranks or are they counted as skirmishers ?

Malorian
04-11-2009, 15:11
(I haven't played against them yet)
Do the bats actualy fight in ranks or are they counted as skirmishers ?

Fliers are skirmishers, skirmishers don't get rank and can't take them away.

N810
04-11-2009, 15:13
Thaks Malorian,
this is making a little more sense now.

Leo85
04-11-2009, 22:24
Most people use the master abilities/Skull staff and cast on 2+'s and are like omg VC are unbeatable, but yes its a min of 3 to cast. You'll hear a lot of crap about IoN but srsly half the attempts to cast fail and trust me its crazy hard to roll 6s everytime it goes off lol. When using IoN the last thing you really wanna raise is Fell bats esp if you got ghouls or skellies (Main core of you army) or if you got GG BK or BLK models to replenish, jeez even characters. Fell bats only gain 1 wound since they are non ifnatry I would think.

sulla
04-11-2009, 23:02
Fell bats only gain 1 wound since they are non ifnatry I would think.Why would you guess when the VC book has the answer right there for you in the summary at the back?

Leo85
04-11-2009, 23:19
I'm at work, I didn't know for sure since I really never raise fell bats lol but yah.

EvC
05-11-2009, 00:15
You're probably not the best person to be commenting on them then really ;)

wilsongrahams
05-11-2009, 00:29
I don't even have bats, wolves or a varghulf in my army. I think I'll stick to raising Grave Guard...