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rune
23-01-2006, 03:34
I made a thread a while back trying to decide if I wanted to play Tau with tons of Kroot, straight up Kroot, or Ork Speedfreaks. Well.. I think I've made my decision and I chose..


..Deathworld Veterans with Kroot Mercenaries!

So heres the low down, tell me this is not a great fluff story. This particular Deathworld, the world of Nibiru, has indigenous Kroot and Human inhabitants. Both species have been in a primitive form, out of contact with their parent empires (Tau & Imperium) until recently, using technology such as single slug shooter rifles (Think WW2 era rifles) and other basic means.

The Kroot & Human tribes have been warring for as long as they've been in existance. Naturally the Kroot being carnivorous leads to these encounters. The Humans, being quite cunning and aided by lightly armed Imperial visitors(and equipment they left behind) have successfully stayed alive and reproduced at a positive rate, albiet very slow. The world of Nibiru is full of jungles and volcanos, even some super volcanos. The geophysics of the planet are extremely active, and volcanic eruptions happen every day. From millenia of battle the Kroot in these jungles, the Human tribesmen have become quite adept at guerrilla warfare and jungle fighting.

Recently the Imperium recieved information from spies on Nibiru that the Tau had set up preliminary outposts and were constructing a colony with Kroot labor in a sector of the planet most hostile to humans. The Imperium sent a Colonization force consisting of Special Forces from other Deathworlds like Catachan & Storm Troopers and the like. Unfortunately, they were ambushed quite badly by a small Tau force leading a horde of ambushing Kroot. Most Imperials were killed, and no one left the planet alive. However, some special forces veterans escaped into the jungles and evaded capture until linking up with Human tribesmen further away after surviving for some days off the land. The indigenous population taught them their language and customs while the Imperial special forces led raiding bands to retrieve vast amounts of Imperial guns, sentinels and equipment from the landing / ambush site.

Over time they drilled the indigenous humans in Imperial military custom and became Squad leaders and Commanders of the human forces, awaiting another Imperial force to rescue them or re-attempt colonization. Surely the ships got out the message that they were under heavy attack before being vaporized in a hail of pulse fire they thought, it was only a matter of time. The truth was that the Imperium recieved no such S.O.S., and there was no such force en route to Nibiru at the present.

Strangely, alot of Kroot tribes were against the Tau prescense more so than the Human one, because the Humans had shared the planet for millenia and the Tau were recent arrivals, unwelcome intruders. Their arrival split the Kroot Tribal Confederacy present on the planet during the Tau arrival into shambles; 2/3rd's of the tribes aligned with the Pro-Tau forces, including the Head Master Shaper & most of his council. One of his council, a particular Master Shaper & 1/3rd of the Kroot tribes defected and refused to submit to Tau forced labor at the outposts and colonies being constructed.

Through hand signal sign language, the Kroot and Humans are able to communicate to a good enough degree to allow coordination and tact on the battlefield. These Kroot tribes have put their long running feud with the Human tribes aside for the common cause of repelling the Tau invaders, while the Imperial Guard remnants in command of the Human tribesmen welcome them to overthrow the Tau on planet Nibiru, effectively claiming it for the Imperium, at which point the Kroot tribes could be "relocated".. (purged)

Wargamejunkie
23-01-2006, 03:58
Well, you do know that the Imperium does use kroot mercenaries, so they my end up just using the kroot as scout troopers, along with the Imperial guard they are sure to recruit from that world.

rune
23-01-2006, 04:30
Yeah, the purge isnt necessarily necessary. :D

As far as troops.. the army would consist of:

HQ
A Colonel & 4 Bodyguards with plasma guns
Elites
7-man Catachan Devils Squad w/Veteran Officer & krak grenades, 3 with plasma guns
2 Deathworld Veteran Snipers
Troops
1st Nibiruan Deathworld Guerrilla Column(Platoon): 1 Captain & 3 Vet Squads
1 Captain
7-man Veteran Infantry Squad with Vet Seargent, a melta gun & a missle launcher.
7-man Veteran Infantry Squad with Vet Seargent, a plasma gun & a heavy bolter.
7-man Veteran Infantry Squad with Vet Seargent, a flamer & a missle launcher.

2nd Nibiruan Deathworld Guerrilla Column(Platoon): 1 Captain & 3 Vet Squads
1 Captain
7-man Veteran Infantry Squad with Vet Seargent, a flamer & a heavy flamer.
7-man Veteran Infantry Squad with Vet Seargent, a plasma gun & a heavy bolter.
7-man Veteran Infantry Squad with Vet Seargent, a melta gun & a missle launcher.
Fast Attack
Death World Sentinel Squadron:
3 Catachan Sentinels with Heavy Flamers

This is my Guerrilla Imperial Army led by Catachan Veterans, with the Troops consisting of Indigenous tribesmen from Nibiru. The Kroot Allied contingent would be something as follows:

everyone in army has +1 initiative
HQ
Master Shaper(w/wings)
Troops
16-man Kroot Carnivore Squad w/shaper
Fast Attack
16-man Vulture Kindred Squad w/shaper(flyers)
6-man Tracker Kindred Squad w/shaper(cavalry)

All together I'd tweak the list to 1500pts .. im sure that would include some modifications to what you see here, but this is just what i'd like to field. I think it would be damn fluffy and effective.. do you think it has enough weaponry and models to outweigh its lack of tanks and the like?

oh yeah, it comes out to a model count of 100 models even. :P

The Lobotomist
23-01-2006, 09:47
I like the theme, and hope you get to play on boards with jungle. On force composition, I'd try and get in a little more AT, maybe a lascannon sentinal or two. Can the Kroot be equipped with any weapons upgrades? I don't have the Kroot Merc list, so i dunno, but it seems like they would help a lot with some kind of specific firepower.

Chem-Dog
23-01-2006, 09:59
I like the idea, Kroot and Junglefighters. As has been said, there are other reasons these two would be teamed up. The Kroot are Mercs, so it's possible the Jungle fighters have hired them as guides, or as extra muscle, perhaps the two are elements of an army hired/owned by a Rogue Trader.

Personally I'm not a fan of the Kroot lists' more esoteric options, the options for wings or Green Kroot seem daft, so I'd just plumb for basic Krooty goodness.
Be sure and give the Kroot lots of IG based wargear, to represent trade or a common supply of equiment.

Yodhrin
23-01-2006, 10:22
One problem with your list; allied Kroot Mercs cant take the genetic alterations, those are only for exclusively Kroot armies mate, sorry.

Im tempted to do the same thing myself, although I'd probably go a little lighter on the Plasma and pick up some extra meltas and a couple of demo charges.

As to the theme itself, it sounds great. Catachans especially have always been more accepting of Abhumans and the like than most other Guard formations, so if any Guard force was likely to fight with Kroot Mercs it would be the 'chans.

colhodg
23-01-2006, 11:12
It is a good theme, pretty plausable. From a bit of experience using catachans; the small unit with flamer/heavy flamer can be pretty nasty when backed up with a sentinel, especially as you have kroot to follow up with an assault. Add a special weapons unit with a further 3 flamers and you'll be able to toast a whole flank...

More A/T maybe but any opponent would aim straight for your lacscannon sentinels to cripple your a/t so meltaguns in infiltrating units stand a better chance. I'd aim for half your units to have no heavy weapons aas they'll be on the move. A unit of infiltrating heavy bolters with improved cover saves can be pretty useful at times too.

Ronson
23-01-2006, 12:13
WargameJunkie: The Imperium does use kroot mercs. There's a nice bit of fiction where a guard platoon comes across kroot in a jungle feasting on the dead. Troopers raise their lasguns to be told by their lieutenant "there on our side..." (think I've got it right...)

Yodhrin: Could you have separate detachments of each? Guard & Kroot? You could use signiature evolutions then...

Cheers : )

rune
23-01-2006, 14:14
Doh! I knew that about the Kroot evolution options and forgot..so no +1 initiative.

I have a question about the Lascannon Armed Sentinel: In my Deathworld Veterans/Catachans Codex it only has Sentinels with Heavy Flamer's as options for the army. Are Lascannon Sentinels legal in a Deathworld Vets army and if so, how do you pull that off?

Because I'd love some kinda troop transport.. and I have access to none. I know I know.. play normal IG with doctrines.. but noooo .. I like the elite feel of the Deathworld Vet codex in specific. Damn near only elite humans other than SMs..

..and you must admit, they get ample opportunities to carry plasmas, meltas & missle launchers. i saw no options for lascannons..

Now I just gotta decide if I want to use Catachan & Tanith Ghost models with a couple of odd models from the other IG ranges, or if I wanna go with a mountanous cave world and tallarn desert raiders, or a toxic atmsosphere world with steel legion (gas masks). They'd all rock.. but Catachans do come in plastic quite excessively, heheh.. I will use the Tanith Ghost models for my "Elite" squad or whatever.. they have a certain indigenous otherworldy yet human look to them.

I already have a sniper to get my paint scheme right on. Someone buy/trade for my 16 Tau Fire warriors on the for sale section so I can get a squad going. :D

Wargamejunkie
23-01-2006, 14:36
Well, Ronson, I did say they would be used as Mercinaries, more than likely with the same unit that was recruited from that world.

Kroot seem to be one of the "ok" alien races, for now at least.

TWB
23-01-2006, 20:03
play normal IG with doctrines
Damn straight, no reason not to, you can get the +1 ws, armour made from leaves, deluxe barbeque set and all of the other good bits o fthe DWVets, all you loose is a weird filler squad or two, individual snipers (yawn) and traps (yawnČ).
The units you loose are easy to replace or aren't worth worrying about,

It's worth noting too that the rate at which a Lascannon's shot dissipates energy through foliage is the main reason not for taking it, classically. I suppose it's large ammo requirements could be an issue, but not when you consider how many autocannon shells you'd need to lug about to make that worth taking, so A lascannon mounted on a chimera would not have that as a problem.

Jungle fighters may well employ Chimeras and such to get them to the area they are supposed to get to (or as close as possible) so It'd be reasonable to include a Chimera.

rune
24-01-2006, 00:43
TWB = jungle fighters may employ chimeras, thats vague.

do deathworld vets get to use chimeras, or just imperial guard with a jungle fighting doctrine? because i didnt see it listed a single time in the Deathworld codex..

I'd looove to have some Chimeras. Damn, now that you said this I am starting to lean toward doing regular Imperial Guard, with this exact same concept, so I can get access to Chimeras & more options for things such as my Sentinels & Squads.

Tell me if can get doctrines for these things that the Deathworld Vets can do and then we'll be talking business:
1) counts woods and jungle as clear terrain for moving and falling back.
2) 4+ save in woods/jungle
3) if didnt move can shoot 12" through the woods/jungle.
4) can infiltrate into woods/jungle

it says in regular Imperial Guard, any "Catachan unit may be upgraded to a Deathworld Veteran at the cost of +3pts" and can take Snipers and Devils Squad as elites, just like Deathworld.

this tells me i can take an imperial guard army, upgrade all my troopers to deathworld vets, even bring my snipers and devils squad, AND bring a few chimeras .. AND some sentinels with actual bang-bang guns.. oooh yes.

Well, in this case, my tactics will change a bit. I'm goinng to bring two fully loaded chimeras (fully loaded with vets) with special weapons galore. Everything else would be much the same though..

I'm definantly going to pass on the Kroot Cavalry now, as they'd be a miniature nightmare to model and convert the legs for .. and now that I have some faster options I don't need em. Hurrah.. any advice for this new change? I know little about regular IG..

Yodhrin
24-01-2006, 00:54
I think you may be using an out of date codex, if I read your last post correctly.

Using Doctrines, I would go with Jungle Fighters and Veterans for definate, the rest is up to you. You can take the Mechanised Doctrine with Jungle Fighters, but it's a waste as you cant infiltrate if you have a transport, and the average Guard player's Chimera fetish can be satisfied with a couple of Armoured Fist Squads. Heavy Weapon Platoons would be good for massed Mortar fire, or you could take Light Infantry as well as Jungle Fighters and give it to your Heavy Weapon Teams from the Command Platoon(allowing you to have serious anti-tank in the form of Lascannons while still maintaining an all-infiltrating army). Restricted Troops: Ogryns or Rough Riders would also work.

The Jungle Fighters Doctrine grants the following abilities;

See 12" through forest or jungle.
4+ cover in forest or jungle.
Move at full speed in forest or jungle.
Infiltrate into forest or jungle.
May take Heavy Flamer as squad heavy weapon.
Never include lascannons.
Armour reduced to 6+ save.

rune
24-01-2006, 02:42
Heh, hmm.. I dont have a regular imperial guard codex, just the flimsy deathworld vets / catachans thin codex that was inexpensive and could be gotten off the net for free at some point.

That codex, it says at the very beginning that the following applies to Catachan units in a regular IG force. And there it says for +3pts a regular guardsmen can become a deathworld veteran in stats & rules. It says Catachan command platoons may include 0-2 assault teams (see army list for details) as part of the platoon's heavy weapon teams. The army may include Heavy Flamer equipped Sentinels. The army may include Catachan Devils and Veteran Snipers as Elite choices(they arent allowed to set up in ambush tho).

Are these rules up to date? If so, then using a regular IG army upgraded to Deathworld Vets would suits me MUCH better than using straight up Vets.

I can only infiltrate into woods or jungles, nowhere else. With all of my squads, there wont be enough woods and jungles for them all. Thus, the chimeras will carry the more close-range oriented squads up to the front lines, while most of the rest infiltrate. Some kroot will infiltrate also if possible.

Are heavy weapon mortar teams any good? What about a command HQ with a Colonel & 4 guys, 2 each on a mortar? Either of these worth a crap? I'd much rather bring my Colonel & 4 Boyguards with 4 Plasma Guns (or 2 plasma 2 heavy flamers, or maybe 4 heavy flamers) in a Chimera and pop out near infiltrated Deathworld vets already engaged needing heavier support. The other chimera would carry a dedicated Deathworld Veteran Assault Team, 9 Members with 3 Plasmas, or 3 Heavy Flamers, or a combination, all with WS4 and close combat weapon & pistol option.

2 Chimeras and 3 Heavy-Flamer Sentinels is all that I need in the form of mechanization for a 1500pts force of Vets and Kroot. That's not nearly too much for a guard army.. even a Deathworld army..

Easy E
24-01-2006, 02:55
If you are using the paperback Codex: Catachans it is out of date. The Good News is that an updated version can be found online for free in the Black Gobbo Archive.

Gupp
24-01-2006, 03:53
ummmm..I beleive you can only have one heavy flamethrower per squad, even in deathworld.

Jahrael
24-01-2006, 04:19
If you are using the paperback Codex: Catachans it is out of date. The Good News is that an updated version can be found online for free in the Black Gobbo Archive.

Yep, Easy E is correct here is a link Catachans Codex (http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/catachans/gaming/codex/armylist.htm)

rune
24-01-2006, 10:28
yeah replace "heavy flamer" with "flamer" everytime i used it in conjunction with equipping soldiers on foot. i dont know why i was thinking they were heavy..

rune
24-01-2006, 10:33
that is the exact same floppy codex man, it even has the same cover artwork.

i read through it then read through the "paperback"(has same cover as real codexes just much thinner thus flimsy) & compared them side by side, they have the exact same content in the army list? can you tell me precisely what changed?

Also, 1 other thing. Can Imperial Guard which have the Jungle Fighters doctrine take Chimeras: yes or no?

Yodhrin
24-01-2006, 12:28
that is the exact same floppy codex man, it even has the same cover artwork.

i read through it then read through the "paperback"(has same cover as real codexes just much thinner thus flimsy) & compared them side by side, they have the exact same content in the army list? can you tell me precisely what changed?

Also, 1 other thing. Can Imperial Guard which have the Jungle Fighters doctrine take Chimeras: yes or no?

The online version doesnt include the bit about upgrading normal Guard, because that applied to the old Guard codex. Deathworld Vets can be used as a standalone force, or you can take them as Allies to a normal Guard army(meaning you are limited to 0-1 HQ, 0-1 Elites, 0-2 Troops and 0-1 Fast Attack from the Deathworld codex, after you have filled the force org requirements from the normal Guard 'dex).

In all, Codex Catachans is just not worth it anymore, you are better off using the normal Guard codex with the Doctrines system. Seeing as you dont have the new Guard 'dex, Ill give you a brief overview of Doctrines and why they're better.

Basically, you can select up to five Doctrines from a list. When you use Doctrines, some troops are lost from the main list(basically all the "flavour" units like Enginseers and Ogryns), and if you want any of them you have to buy each back with one of your five Doctrine points.

After you get each type of Restricted Troop you want(typically you only end up using one or two points in this section), you can select from various other Doctrines which give your force added benefits. For example: Mechanised allows you to take a Chimera transport for any squad, including those in basic infantry platoons, Drop Troops allows you to Deep Strike any squad with the Doctrine and Light Infantry gives your squads the ability to infiltrate, plus you get to roll two dice and pick highest for difficult terrain tests and the option to take a sniper rifle in place of a squad's heavy weapon.

In your case, Jungle Fighters with all the benefits from my post above comes in at only +1 point per Guardsman, compared to three extra points they cost in the Deathworld 'dex. Veterans is also great, as it removes the 0-1 restriction on Veteran Squads, allowing you to take up to three.

As I said, I would use a mix of Jungle Fighters and Light Infantry for practicality because, as you say, only being able to infiltrate into forest or jungle is a problem. So, you give two or three squads Jungle Fighters for flavour and burny-death, then give Light Infantry to the rest(which doesnt restrict Infiltration beyond the normal rules). Veteran Squads get Infiltrate as standard, plus the ability to select up to three special weapons, so you could if you wanted give them Jungle Fighters too for a super-elite unit with 4(!) template weapons. You then have two Doctrines left to select, so you could get some Ogryns/Rough Riders or go for one of the other various special abilities.

That leaves you free to have any tanks you want, plus all varieties of Sentinel(Lascannon, Autocannon, Multilaser, Heavy Flamer), Armoured Fist Squads for Chimeras etc, and any infantry in your force can infiltrate. That gives you a flexible force, mixing tanks and armoured infantry with massed infiltration, allowing you to have a fast-moving objective grabbing/line reinforcement armoured group and the ability to position your troops to protect them, command firelanes and get flank shots on enemy tanks.

rune
24-01-2006, 16:23
Or if I wanted short-range fire support with a punch, I could take the Veterans Doctrine and the Mechanized Doctrine, as well as the Light Infantry Doctrine and the Jungle Fighting Doctrine? Thats 4 Doctrines, I dont plan to use Ogryns or Ratlings.. or Engineers..

So at that point I could bring 3 Veteran 9-man squads each with 3 plasma guns/melta guns/flamers, each in its own Chimera? I know they already infiltrate, but like I said, just about every single thing in this army will have infiltrate to some extent, so some stuff needs to start in my deployment area.

As to using Deathworld Veterans as allies, is there a point? Arent your Veteran Squads with the doctrines i've mentioned essentially the exact same thing? And doesnt the Veterans doctrine essentially make the army "Deathworld Vets" themed in a sense anyways? I'm starting to understand.

So my regular joe-schmoe troops will all benefit from the same stuff deathworld vets "regular troops" do(essentially with those doctrines chosen), they just wont have a +1 WS and they wont have the exact same equipment options? or do one of those doctrines give a +1 WS?

Gupp
24-01-2006, 17:54
unforutnately... I know that mechananised cannot be combined with light infantry, but it might be comined with jungle fighters, i think.... but why then?

This is because ( im pretty sure on this) each squad has to take a chimera.....

rune
24-01-2006, 18:04
Okay, so if every single squad in the army has to take a chimera for mechanized then nevermind that. I just thought it enabled me to put any squads i wanted in chimeras but not all of them.

i just .. really dont want an imperial guard army ENTIRELY on foot .. can you imagine the sheer amount of painting, but thats not so bad.. can you imagine the sheer number of dead guardsmen due to lack of cover from having SOOO freaking many guardsmen and kroot standing around? i really need a couple chimeras to carry a couple squads forward.. so theres no way to do this with jungle fighters?

Yodhrin
24-01-2006, 19:06
Dont worry mate, Vet squads have the option to take a Chimera as standard, you dont need to take Mechanised to give them one. Plus you can take an Armoured Fist Squad(normal Guard in a Chimera) for every normal platoon of infantry, so you could go with a normal platoon, an AFS and as many vet squads in Chimeras as you like. Throw in a tank and some sentinels and doctrine-up your infantry platoon and you're sorted.

rune
25-01-2006, 04:34
Well, I'm pretty set on getting a squadron of 3 'Catachan' style Sentinels with the Heavy Flamer & the chainsaw addition(+1 attack). Mainly because I can (hopefully) get a killer deal on it if no one takes too much interest in the auction im looking at.

At first I thought that kinda sucks, but I always knew sentinels arent that great to begin with, just look cool. I figured if I escorted 2 Chimeras full of Vets with 3 Heavy Flamer sentinels down a flank and then charged whatever was left of the sentinels into the melees and such it might prove to be a nice fast attack flank force.

my LAST GUARD QUESTION and then you can all stop checking this thread:

If I take the light infantry and jungle fighters doctrines, will I still be able to put my Vet Squads in Chimeras, or does the light infantry doctrine specificly limit me by removing the option of using Chimeras for Vets & armored fist?

Jahrael
25-01-2006, 20:59
If I take the light infantry and jungle fighters doctrines, will I still be able to put my Vet Squads in Chimeras, or does the light infantry doctrine specificly limit me by removing the option of using Chimeras for Vets & armored fist?

No. you can still use Chimeras, you will not be able to infiltrate/deepstrike any unit that has a transport. All other special rules are applied to them (light infantry/jungle fighters), just not the infiltrate/deepstrike.