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Tolinwiz
04-11-2009, 16:43
Did we? Last thread was pretty un-definitive.

Slicktober
04-11-2009, 16:46
I would vote yes, as long as they have line of sight.

Can't target things in close combat, but you can affect them.

Tolinwiz
04-11-2009, 16:54
That's the way we play it as well at our local shop, the biggest hurdle is getting people to realize that units can see out of close combat.

outbreak
04-11-2009, 22:16
"The Casket does not affect units that are engaged in combat at all. It is assumed that they are engrossed in the combat, and so will never be affected."

Gav Thorpe's answer if you google TK FAQ you'll find copies of the FAQ with Gav adding more to it.

Slicktober
04-11-2009, 22:16
Yeah, from many years and one full edition of game rules ago. Not a useful answer in the least.

outbreak
04-11-2009, 22:17
Still the closest to an official answer that is available.

Slicktober
04-11-2009, 22:18
But it wasn't even official then, and it means absolutely nothing now since the rules are totally different from when the comment was made... so...?

Nurgling Chieftain
04-11-2009, 22:30
Let's see, I can argue this if I try hard enough. :cool: We know from the errata regarding magic resistance that you only get magic resistance if the spell targets your unit. We know from the TK FAQ that you get MR against the casket. Ergo, the casket must target your units! And since you cannot target units in close combat with a spell unless the spell specifically allows it, this means you cannot use the casket into close combat. QED. :D (No, I don't expect that to be a binding argument. :p )

Tarian
04-11-2009, 22:33
QED Nurgling XD

That said, we play that it does affect CC as they can "see" it over the other unit, assuming its on a hill. (or castle tower, ouch!)

EDIT: Nice Sig Nurgling, I think that thread had something about milking Platypus too, but I'm not entirely sure anymore.

Lijacote
04-11-2009, 22:35
Unless it's an errata, it's nothing but GW's house rules.

Do units have line of sight in combat? Is the Casket's effect indiscriminate when it comes to combats (as in, is the only requirement the ability to draw line of sight)? If the answer is yes to both these questions, the answer is yes. Ultimately though, unless given a good answer (FAQs don't really count), it's up to the players and/or tournament organizers or the owner of the house (or whatever authorities you choose to worship) to rule.

EDIT: Or like Kalandros puts it. Laol. I knew I should have researched every detail, instead of assuming that people were after a genuine question.

Kalandros
05-11-2009, 00:27
The Casket of Souls is the same as a bound spell - it happens in the magic phase, it can be dispelled AND it has a power level, spells cannot affect close combats unless they specifically state otherwise.

Casket of souls' effect CANNOT affect Close Combats.

Grimgormx
05-11-2009, 00:54
To be affected by the casket a unit has to be able to have LOS to it, a unit in CC cant draw a LOS to it even if it is in a hill.

If I were to take that argument, then Misile troops engaged in CC should be able to shoot their weapons to a big monster, or something over a hill just because they have LOS and shooting is an indepent phase.

definitely, casket cant affect a unit that doesnt has LOS to it, and a unit in CC doesnt has LOS to it.

Tolinwiz
05-11-2009, 01:04
Grim, where in the rules does it say a unit in CC can't see units on a hill?

Grimgormx
05-11-2009, 01:13
To that argument I can only say "where in the BRB says that a unit in CC can see a unit in a hill?"

Slicktober
05-11-2009, 01:38
The Casket of Souls is the same as a bound spell - it happens in the magic phase, it can be dispelled AND it has a power level, spells cannot affect close combats unless they specifically state otherwise.

This is actually wrong.

Spells cannot TARGET close combats unless they specifically state otherwise. There are about a bazillion spells that affect close combats without stating otherwise - they just have to not target specific units. This one is no different.

Kalandros
05-11-2009, 02:36
.. You are clearly wrong, all the spells that affect units in an area of effect - ALL mention something along the line "even units in combat".

Spells that make no mention of being able to hit units engaged in close combat, simply may not.
Casket of Souls effect CANNOT be used against units in close combat.

Tolinwiz
05-11-2009, 02:36
Grim, it doesn't say that I can't declare myself the winner of warhammer in the BRB, can I do that then?

If so, I am the winner, and no one else can claim that title.

Seriously though, I was under the assumption large targets could cast spells at units while in CC, wizards on the end of a unit could see out, etc.

I'm not even exactly sure why you think units LoS is blocked while in CC. What rules are you referencing to make that distinction?

Kalan, what is the rule stated for area of effect spells not hitting units in combat unless specifically stating they can? I know there is a rule about targeting units in combat, but not one about area of effects being required to specifically state they can hit units in combat. (If it seems I'm being overly rule lawyery, I apologize, I genuinely want to make the most fair assessment for my group, as I'm the odd TK player) ((I haven't run casket in my list in quite some time))

Isabel
05-11-2009, 03:46
I'm the only TK player in my local store and would never even try to argue this...

It's already been said several times, if it could target units in combat, it would specifically say it. LoS is not it's only targeting requirment, it's still bound by the rules of spells.

Tolinwiz
05-11-2009, 04:01
I'm the only TK player in my local store and would never even try to argue this...

It's already been said several times, if it could target units in combat, it would specifically say it. LoS is not it's only targeting requirment, it's still bound by the rules of spells.

I'm not sure I understand the "I wouldn't even try to argue this" like it's some horrible breach of rule honor, lol.

LoS is the casket's only targeting requirement, I'm not sure what other requirements the spell has to hit a unit, other then possibly needing them to not be in combat.

I mean, basically the rule breaks down to -

Can units see out of combat, yes
Can units be affected by spells while in combat, yes
Can you target units in combat with spells, no
Is casket of souls AoE effect targeting a unit, or does it go off in an area (the whole table), <shrug> house rule

Nurgling is the only one to make a compelling argument so far against casket going off on units in combat, he does this by quoting rules.

Slicktober
05-11-2009, 05:04
.. You are clearly wrong, all the spells that affect units in an area of effect - ALL mention something along the line "even units in combat".

Spells that make no mention of being able to hit units engaged in close combat, simply may not.
Casket of Souls effect CANNOT be used against units in close combat.

No, you are "clearly wrong."

Comet of Cassandora hits everything in its radius. Whether they are in combat or not. It does so because it doesn't target any units, but a point on the table.

Guardian Light affects all units within 12". It would be stupid if your friendly units that were in combat did not become immune to psychology. "Let's have a spell that makes units immune to psychology except that when they are in combat they will get autobroken. Brilliant!"

The Howler Wind affects all units within 12" even if they are in close combat. So if you cast Howler Wind, and you are in combat with Skaven Slaves, the Skaven player cannot shoot at the unit. It would be stupid if the spell did not affect them.

There are a handful of other spells from army book specific lores that would be really, really stupid if they didn't affect units in close combat.

How about Pandaemonium? Units in close combat can keep using character's leadership? Wizards in combat don't miscast on any doubles?

Phantasmagoria? Sure, units in close combat don't have to take their leadership tests on 3 dice. What the hell. Why not hey?

Courage of Aenarion. Units that have to take a break test are Stubborn. Except for those units that have to take a break test that are in close combat. Brilliant! I can't wait to tell my High Elf opponents how useful that spell is...

:rolleyes:

If you can find ANY rule in the rulebook to support your "magic can't affect units in close combat" nonsense, I will immediately change my mind.

I can show you where it says you can not cast a spell at units in close combat. It's on page 107, under casting spells, 6th paragraph.

Wizards cannot cast spells at units engaged in close combat, unless the caster himself or the spell's description says otherwise.

In all the of cases above, and in the Casket of Souls, the caster is NOT casting the spell on a unit in close combat. He is targeting something else, himself, a point on the table or the battlefield in general. In all cases, once the spell is cast it can affect whatever it bloody well can affect by its rules.

There is no prohibition ANYWHERE In the rules about affecting a unit with magic when they are in close combat. Just against casting a spell at them.

outbreak
05-11-2009, 05:24
I had been playing this as people in combat saw the casket if on a hill until another forum had directed me to the gav thorpe quote stating it was an official ruling. If that comment is balony like you guys say then the rules description still sounds to me as if it effects combat.

Tolinwiz
05-11-2009, 05:34
It was legit at the time.

Using it now would be like referencing a high elf rule from 4th edition.

Isabel
05-11-2009, 05:57
I meant no offence by the "I would never argue this" comment. It's just the way I play it. The reason being that to me this is unclear, if something is unclear, I choose the path less advantageous to myself just to keep things going and spare myself an arguement. I guess it comes down to, does the casket target units. In my opinion, it does because it is an attack spell that targets enemy units alone. Not a single spot on the table and any unit, friend or foe, who comes near it is affected. It specifically targets enemy units (key word, targets). Which is the reason opponents get to use MR against it too, like Nurgling chieftain said. But then again there is spells like pandamonium which only effect enemies, yet they dont get to use MR against it...

Like I said, just my opinion. I dont like it anymore than you guys, it's just how I see it.

TheAmazingAntman
05-11-2009, 06:18
Rules as Written: Yeah, probably...

Rules as Intedned: Nah, probably not.

@ Tolinwiz... Your example isn’t exactly accurate. High Elves have had 3 new books since 4th, Tomb Kings have had 0 since that "ruling". While I wouldn't hold something Gav said half a decade ago as gospel I wouldn't necessarily ignore it either.

Tolinwiz
05-11-2009, 07:39
Yeah, my statement was as you said not exactly accurate.

It would seem the consensus falls to "house rule".

Grimgormx
01-12-2009, 22:45
If units in CC ignore terror causing units that are charging them (like a Giant) because they are to busy trying to see where their enemies weapons are aiming to block those weapons, why should they fight and pay atention to a box far away (even in a hill).

A giant, manticore, dragon, or another enemy unit would be a more powerful treat.

Grimgormx
01-12-2009, 22:47
Roll a die for every unit in CC that has LOS to the casket, with 4+ they see it and they get affected.

Rodman49
02-12-2009, 00:05
To be affected by the casket a unit has to be able to have LOS to it, a unit in CC cant draw a LOS to it even if it is in a hill.

If I were to take that argument, then Misile troops engaged in CC should be able to shoot their weapons to a big monster, or something over a hill just because they have LOS and shooting is an indepent phase.

definitely, casket cant affect a unit that doesnt has LOS to it, and a unit in CC doesnt has LOS to it.

I think this plus Gav's response make it pretty clear the Casket does not affect units in CC.

Zoolander
02-12-2009, 00:32
If units in CC ignore terror causing units that are charging them (like a Giant) because they are to busy trying to see where their enemies weapons are aiming to block those weapons, why should they fight and pay atention to a box far away (even in a hill).

A giant, manticore, dragon, or another enemy unit would be a more powerful treat.

Well, using psychology examples with spell use is flawed from the getgo.


I think this plus Gav's response make it pretty clear the Casket does not affect units in CC.

True, but I also think the statement is outdated, just like the book. Sadly, until next year, we will have to go with Gav's comments.

Necromancy Black
02-12-2009, 00:40
If units in CC ignore terror causing units that are charging them (like a Giant) because they are to busy trying to see where their enemies weapons are aiming to block those weapons, why should they fight and pay atention to a box far away (even in a hill).


Because that's the rules.

Is there a rule saying units in close combat ignore psychology tests? Yes, there is.
Is there a rule saying unit in close combat have their LOS blocked differently? No, there isn't. So what rules for LOS did we already have...

1) other units block LOS. So when fighting in the front this will pretty much block LOS of both units.
2) units on hills can see over other units and units on the ground can see units on hills over other units on the ground.

No where does it say that the above 2 rules change or don't take place when a unit is in combat, therefore both still apply.

Just because there is no specific rule for LOS in combat doesn't mean you can just maek stuff up. There are still rules to LOS in the game and if there's nothing syaing that being in CC changes them then, and here's the big part, they don't change!

lethlis
03-12-2009, 14:18
This you cant target a unit in close combat stuff kind of comes up again when you have spells that target a point but not a unit (O i can cast black horror into combat as it targets a point on the board within 18 inches, since I am not targeting the unit huh huh huh). Targetting and affecting can kinda be used interchangeably in my mind, or at least thats how I take it from the way magic resistance works. If the spell would affect the unit than magic resistance kicks in if I recall correctly.

nosferatu1001
03-12-2009, 16:42
See the errata in BRB FAQ part2 - MR makes no mention of "affect" any longer.

Grimgormx
03-12-2009, 17:49
Ok, then casket effect is worked as a spell? then it cant affect units in CC because it doesnt says it can.

Maybe if it is in a hill, units in CC can see it, but then archers in a hill can see enemy units in CC and then they can shoot them. but we all know they cant (unles they are skavens)

MarcoPollo
03-12-2009, 20:25
I am thinking of a different angle. Units engaged in combat are immune to psychology. I think the book said something like they are too engrossed in the combat to notice. I'm not 100% sure about line of sight but I would think that the player was trying to bend the rules to his advantage.

So I would say not allowed and would dock sportsmanship points if a person tried to argue that it could.

outbreak
03-12-2009, 22:04
the caskets effect is a spell not psychology, still effects immune to psych as it's not a leadership test just uses leadership value

Necromancy Black
04-12-2009, 00:35
Ok, then casket effect is worked as a spell? then it cant affect units in CC because it doesnt says it can.


People have already pointed out that the rules state you can not target a unit in close combat. Despite what you may think, affecting and targeting are two different things, as made clear from the Errata to MR.
The comet will damage units in close combat without targeting them, for example.



Maybe if it is in a hill, units in CC can see it, but then archers in a hill can see enemy units in CC and then they can shoot them. but we all know they cant (unles they are skavens)
....what are you on man? For one, the shooting is directly targeting something, the casket doesn't do this.


I am thinking of a different angle. Units engaged in combat are immune to psychology. I think the book said something like they are too engrossed in the combat to notice. I'm not 100% sure about line of sight but I would think that the player was trying to bend the rules to his advantage.


1) Casket of Souls, as stated above, is not a psychology test. This also means you can't use Cold Blooded, Strength in Numbers, Doom and Darkness or any other modifier for it.
Hell, even if it was a Leadership test, you would still have to take it! Psychology is Leadership, but Leadership is not necessarily Psychology! So if you have to take a Leadership tests that's not psychology, units in combat are still affect!
Also, units in combat are not Immune to Psychology. Instead, they ignore all Psychology tests. This is a big difference that I shouldn't have to explain.

2) As I stated before, there is nothing, anywhere, that changes the LOS rules for close combat. The same rules for LOS still apply in combat. The main thing is there will be a big unit in front of you blocking your LOS, so you can normally only see other units on hills or that are large targets.
This is how wizards can cast non-magic missile spells out of combat. If you can see some knights on a hill then you can hit them with Spirit of the Forge or something.

My favourite is getting into combat with a heavy armour character right in front of my wizard. Rule of Burning Iron that sucker before the combat phase :D



So I would say not allowed and would dock sportsmanship points if a person tried to argue that it could.

Wow, docking sportsmanship because you don't fully understand the rules. That's some great sportsmanship you've got there.

MarcoPollo
04-12-2009, 01:19
Wow, docking sportsmanship because you don't fully understand the rules. That's some great sportsmanship you've got there.

That's fine! You can dock me back if you like. I'm not a complete newb and have been playing for a while (see my sig). Not everyone knows the interpretation of every rule. If you have to argue a point till you are blue in the face, then you are getting docked. Right or Wrong.

Tolinwiz
04-12-2009, 04:26
That's fine! You can dock me back if you like. I'm not a complete newb and have been playing for a while (see my sig). Not everyone knows the interpretation of every rule. If you have to argue a point till you are blue in the face, then you are getting docked. Right or Wrong.

Sound like a classy guy. "Well I'm going to dock you because I don't know the rules, and anyone that argues a rule that I don't know about clearly deserves points docking." "Oh you don't like it?!?!? Dock me back then!"

Roffle.

lethlis
04-12-2009, 05:03
See the errata in BRB FAQ part2 - MR makes no mention of "affect" any longer.

I meant that target essentially means it affects them, not that it is in the rule book as such. Meanings are interchangeable

Necromancy Black
04-12-2009, 05:57
Meanings are interchangeable
Except in the rule book :p

"Target" and "affect" are damn confusing parts of the rules. 8th edition had better sort this stuff out.

Staurikosaurus
04-12-2009, 09:00
To affect a unit in close combat, the item has to specifically say so. Page 107 "Wizards cannot cast spells at units engaged in close combat, unless the spell only affects the caster himself or the spell's description says otherwise." The casket does not specify that it can target units in close combat. As an example, Conflagration of Doom, does not say that it may target units in close combat, as a result it cannot - even though it says all that it requires is LOS. Another example is Crown of Taidron - affects all units within 12", even if engaged in close combat. Note the distinction.

If you allow the Casket to fire into combats, then many spells from the main rulebook may suddenly be cast into combat as the same argument being used in favour of the Casket can be used for them as well.

Necromancy Black
04-12-2009, 09:28
How many other spells can "affect" units in close combat with "targeting" them?

I think comet was one. Black Horror has always had a sticking point on it as well, but that's due to order of events, not targeting.

Staurikosaurus
04-12-2009, 17:39
If that's your argument then I can cast Conflagration of Doom, Wall of Fire, Commandment of Brass, Law of Gold, Spirit of the Forge, Pit of Shades, Celestial Shield, Forked Lightning, Uranon's Thunderbolt, Master of the Wood, Rain Lord, and Master of Stone can be cast into close combat.

Tarian
04-12-2009, 17:48
All of those target except for celestial shield... (Which we play can be cast while in combat since it doesn't target anything specifically.)

Staurikosaurus
04-12-2009, 18:03
But the Casket targets as well as it makes a distinction between enemy and friendly models. As well, I'd like to direct everyone to the Tomb Kings 2008-02 FAQ since most of you seem to think they're official.

"Magic Resistance does work against the Casket’s Light of Death, so long as the model/unit with Magic Resistance would be affected. Where there is more than
one unit with Magic Resistance that will be affected, only one model/unit can add their extra dice (usually the highest). In all other respects, the Light of Death
counts as magic that affects any enemy unit that can see the Casket, so other effects would also work as they would against any other magic. Having said that,
however, a magic item that ‘rebounds’ spells isn’t going to have any effect – the Light of Death only ever affects enemies."

Going with that FAQ and the errata'd MR rules, the Casket targets opponents. As a result it cannot be used against units in close combat.

tarrym
04-12-2009, 22:30
Personally I've always played the game where anything in close combat doesn't have LoS to things outside of the combat (even if on a hill).

But then I am a TK player and I am obviously more than interested if I've been handicapping myself all these years.

I don't have any evidence to backup either side of the argument, but I did wonder if/how the Casket effects compared to something like the WoC/DoC magic banners which make all enemy units with LoS to the banner suffer -X to their Ld.

Do these banners affect the unit your BSB is in combat with?

Do they affect an enemy unit on a hill that can see the combat your BSB is in?

I'm inclined to agree that the casket "spell" doesn't target any unit specifically and so could affect units in close combat. But this still leaves the LoS issue - one which I can't figure out either way.

Covalent
04-12-2009, 22:44
"Magic Resistance does work against the Casket’s Light of Death, so long as the model/unit with Magic Resistance would be affected. Where there is more than
one unit with Magic Resistance that will be affected, only one model/unit can add their extra dice (usually the highest). In all other respects, the Light of Death
counts as magic that affects any enemy unit that can see the Casket, so other effects would also work as they would against any other magic. Having said that,
however, a magic item that ‘rebounds’ spells isn’t going to have any effect – the Light of Death only ever affects enemies."

Going with that FAQ and the errata'd MR rules, the Casket targets opponents. As a result it cannot be used against units in close combat.

Where does it say the Casket targets opponents? It only says that the units seeing the Casket can use their MR.

Necromancy Black
05-12-2009, 01:13
But the Casket targets as well as it makes a distinction between enemy and friendly models. As well, I'd like to direct everyone to the Tomb Kings 2008-02 FAQ since most of you seem to think they're official.

"Magic Resistance does work against the Casket’s Light of Death, so long as the model/unit with Magic Resistance would be affected. Where there is more than
one unit with Magic Resistance that will be affected, only one model/unit can add their extra dice (usually the highest). In all other respects, the Light of Death
counts as magic that affects any enemy unit that can see the Casket, so other effects would also work as they would against any other magic. Having said that,
however, a magic item that ‘rebounds’ spells isn’t going to have any effect – the Light of Death only ever affects enemies."


Affects, affects, affects. You try and say it's targeting because it makes a distinction between allies and the enemy but the wording of the spell and FAQ is clearly one of affecting, not targeting.

Also, since when has a spell that "makes a distinction" on affects suddenly turned into targeting multiple units?

Staurikosaurus
05-12-2009, 03:14
What is targeting except making a distinction between targets and non-targets?

Covalent
05-12-2009, 03:29
I don't have the TK army book, but I am pretty sure it says that units that can see the Casket are affected, and not "the units the Casket can see are affected".

And what NecromancyBlack meant is that "affecting" doesn't imply "targeting" when refering to what I previously said.

Staurikosaurus
05-12-2009, 04:30
That is irregardless of the fact that it is a warmachine and it fires off bound spells, neither of which can target units in close combat unless accidental or that they may. In addition, the author of the book has said it does not affect units in close combat. While some may argue that Gav's response bears no weight as it isn't "official", neither are GW's FAQs by their own admission - which means an errata is required. The book was made during the last edition of Warhammer, so certain concessions have to be made. The rules do not state that the war machine can deliberately cast it's bound spell into combat, as a result it cannot.

Covalent
05-12-2009, 14:12
Does anyone have the TK reference? Because I've read back the topic and people say that the Casket casts a bound spell and targets it at everyone....but I'm pretty sure it says the reverse, that everyone that sees the Casket is affected, which is really different of "the Casket CASTS a spell at its TARGET".

Anyone?

gdsora
05-12-2009, 16:10
Does anyone have the TK reference? Because I've read back the topic and people say that the Casket casts a bound spell and targets it at everyone....but I'm pretty sure it says the reverse, that everyone that sees the Casket is affected, which is really different of "the Casket CASTS a spell at its TARGET".

Anyone?

When released it affects all units that can draw LOS to the casket itself.
Rules as written, it does not target.

Grimgormx
05-12-2009, 18:54
Ok, but the question is, does it affect units in CC?

We know LOS from enemy units must be draw to the casket, so a unit that is fighting can draw a LOS to the casket?

Tolinwiz
05-12-2009, 20:05
In addition, the author of the book has said it does not affect units in close combat.

Do you have that quote handy, or a reference to it?

Staurikosaurus
05-12-2009, 20:59
Do you have that quote handy, or a reference to it?

Q. Are enemy units which are involved in close combat, but still
have line of sight to the Casket of Souls, affected by the Light
of Death?

A. The Casket does not affect units that are engaged in combat at
all. It is assumed that they are engrossed in the combat, and so
will never be affected.
S. Gav Thorpe - Warhammer Design Team

http://www.glwl.org/7th_faqs/tk_faq.txt

Necromancy Black
06-12-2009, 05:44
Ok, but the question is, does it affect units in CC?

We know LOS from enemy units must be draw to the casket, so a unit that is fighting can draw a LOS to the casket?

If the casket is on a hill, yes. They follow normal LOs rules meaning they can only see over units in front of them if they are on a hill or are a large target.

Nekrodamus
07-12-2009, 11:56
- LOS and CC

Allthough I personally think nobody should be able to look out of a close combat (a life-threatening crush), the rules on page 8 (a unit sees an enemy if at least one member has a LOS to it) are nowhere negated for CC.

Units in CC aren't allowed to shoot or to use magisc missiles (note: only MM are restricted) and they don't test for psychlogy, but 'missing LOS' is never mentioned to be the reason for those rules.

Gav's statement could be found in the first online FAQ (years ago when GW was brave enough to run a forum), but it never did it into the chronicles, the Khemri FAQ or the 7th edition RB. Nothing to rely on!


- CoS and MR

The Casket doesn't target units at all, in fact it is 'cast' on itself by opening it and let the enemies see the light.

Allthough the Khemri FAQ reads that MR will work against it, this was written when MR was ruled different and being affected by a spell was enough to trigger MR.

Since a FAQ is inoffical officially and this obviously outdated rule can't be found in the armybook (compare f.i. old Khorne mounts and frenzy), there is no need to insist on it (and to hinder TK even more).

Grimgormx
07-12-2009, 16:39
Q. Are enemy units which are involved in close combat, but still
have line of sight to the Casket of Souls, affected by the Light
of Death?

A. The Casket does not affect units that are engaged in combat at
all. It is assumed that they are engrossed in the combat, and so
will never be affected.
S. Gav Thorpe - Warhammer Design Team

http://www.glwl.org/7th_faqs/tk_faq.txt


Thks, this is all I need, units in CC arent affected by the casket.

MarcoPollo
07-12-2009, 18:53
Q. Are enemy units which are involved in close combat, but still
have line of sight to the Casket of Souls, affected by the Light
of Death?

A. The Casket does not affect units that are engaged in combat at
all. It is assumed that they are engrossed in the combat, and so
will never be affected.
S. Gav Thorpe - Warhammer Design Team

http://www.glwl.org/7th_faqs/tk_faq.txt


Good Job!

Anyone who argues this point in a game without a contrary ruling from their local "judge" before hand gets docked -- Necromancy!

Tolinwiz
07-12-2009, 19:10
Let me go find some old out-dated rules and post them here as well....brb, looking forward to docking you Marco!

Edit:

It's just silly that you're taking what obviously is a point of contention (read: casket rules) and throwing your hands up in the air and going "NOPE! Old rule from old edition, never official, after many rule changes have been made regarding said old rule, I don't need to listen to you!"

It would seem more productive, and more sporting from a sporting chap like yourself, to have an argument and argue to the points, not look for trump cards from an old edition!

gerrymander61
07-12-2009, 23:01
1) Casket of Souls, as stated above, is not a psychology test. This also means you can't use Cold Blooded, Strength in Numbers, Doom and Darkness or any other modifier for it.


Except that you can use Strength in Numbers. Errata'd.

Necromancy Black
07-12-2009, 23:31
Except that you can use Strength in Numbers. Errata'd.

Yeah, like how CoS was FAQ'd to allow you to use the general's leadership against it.

Which is complete bloody ********. It's not a leadership test, but I can use my general's leadership? So why can't I also use Cold Blooded? They're both use for the same thing.

And you've quoted a man who was constantly saying that Manbane and Rendering Star should never result in anything higher then a Str 6 attack. This was the man who wrote the DE book, but the FAQ came out saying he was wrong. I have no faith at all in Gav's ability to FAQ his own books.

Also, you might have notice I've never said how I would play CoS affecting units in CC, I've only been arguing how the rules actually work because a lot of what people have been saying in this thread have been complete crap.

Covalent
08-12-2009, 00:21
In my group, we decided that the CoS didn't affect units in CC because of the types of games we play and such.

But, once, we felt it would be better (and more challenging) to play it that units in CC are still affected. It all depends of the mood, as no rule actually forbiddens or forces you to play it in any way.

Staurikosaurus
08-12-2009, 01:15
Let me go find some old out-dated rules and post them here as well....brb, looking forward to docking you Marco!


Except it's a 7th ed FAQ with source from the book's author. Which is more proof than the proponents for the casket working on units in combat have come up with.

Nekrodamus
08-12-2009, 01:52
Except it's a 7th ed FAQ with source from the book's author. Which is more proof than the proponents for the casket working on units in combat have come up with.

Fail!

Gav (only him) stated this back in 2002 and (as mentioned allready) after GW shut down their community they never repeated this 'rule' again.

Nobody but the Direwolf Council declares this relic to be valid in the 7th edition.

Staurikosaurus
08-12-2009, 02:26
Funny, it's listed as a 7th ed FAQ, in addition, Gav is the author of the book, so I'd take his word over anyone else's. As well, I challenge you to find an official FAQ. I'll save you the trouble, no such thing exists. Lack of response on the part of GW in an errata does not equate to allowance. As proof, look to any number of rules threads on this board.

The "relic" as you call it is newer than the army book we're discussing so . .

FAIL

Foxbat
08-12-2009, 03:08
I think the best area effect spell analogy we can find is the Guardian Light spell as this specific question has been answered by GW (BRB FAQ – Feb 2009, pg 7 link: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2220025_Warhammer_FAQ_part2_Feb_2009):
“Q. Do the effects of the Lore of Light spell, Guardian Light apply to friendly models engaged in close combat?

A. Yes, as the spell is not cast ‘at’ any specific target, but it affects all friendly units within 12”.”

So, the way I read GW advice here is that spells that do not note that it is targeted "at" a unit (i.e. typically area effect spells) or is a magic missile spell (refer BRB pg 110), the spell can affect units in combat. This also means that area effect type spells (e.g. Cleansing Flare) that note in their rule that the spell also affects units in combat is really a redundant statement.

As for the CoS, unless the spell notes that it is cast “at” a unit, it is not and can affect units in combat.

Staurikosaurus
08-12-2009, 03:15
sigh, except that the army books' author says otherwise AND it's a warmachine which may not deliberately target units in close combat AND it's a bound spell which may not target units in close combat unless it specifically says so.

Stop looking for easter eggs in outdated army books. They don't exist.

gdsora
08-12-2009, 03:43
sigh, except that the army books' author says otherwise AND it's a warmachine which may not deliberately target units in close combat AND it's a bound spell which may not target units in close combat unless it specifically says so.

Stop looking for easter eggs in outdated army books. They don't exist.

Kroq-gars hand item bound spell says it will automatically strike all enemy units that Kroq-gar can see. No where in the spell description does it specifically state it can target units in close combat, but it was FAQ'ed that it can.

Seems kinda moot point, when that can do it, but the casket cant.
Same with Comet, and other spells that can.

Foxbat
08-12-2009, 04:02
Q. Are enemy units which are involved in close combat, but still have line of sight to the Casket of Souls, affected by the Light of Death?

A. The Casket does not affect units that are engaged in combat at all. It is assumed that they are engrossed in the combat, and so will never be affected.
S. Gav Thorpe - Warhammer Design Team

http://www.glwl.org/7th_faqs/tk_faq.txt The problem is that the author’s earlier FAQ has not been incorporated into the 2008 FAQ for the TK. At least I could not find it. This means that for the purposes of the current BRB and army books, it is of interest only.

As for application of the Guardian Light comment, it also clarifies how one would apply the High Elf Courage of Aenarion spell and the DoC Phantasmagoria (Lore of Slaanesh) spell. Just like the Guardian Light spell they do not reference a specific target. In the case of the HE spell, which pertains to Break tests, this spell would be profoundly useless if it did not apply to units in combat.

Necromancy Black
08-12-2009, 05:00
sigh, except that the army books' author says otherwise AND it's a warmachine which may not deliberately target units in close combat AND it's a bound spell which may not target units in close combat unless it specifically says so.

Stop looking for easter eggs in outdated army books. They don't exist.

Stop making up rules where they don't exist.

Warmachines and spells may not target units. As the two example of spells not targeting units above show, affecting units in combat is different. A canon may not target a unit in combat but the cannon ball may bounce through combat fine.

So for both spells and warmachines targeting is bad. The casket doesn't say it target's anything, it's like Guardian light and Kroq-gar's bound spell. So as per RAW it affects units in close combat if they have LOS to the casket.

As for the author saying stuff, I've already mentioned Gav said one thing about the DE rules and then the official FAQ said something else. As far as I'm concern, Gav's word hold only slightly more power then the average gamer. And, as mentioned, his answer fails to show anywhere in the current FAQ for 7th edition Tomb Kings.

Staurikosaurus
08-12-2009, 05:07
He NOW only holds as much power as the average gamer as he's no longer employed by GW. When he answered the question he was.

You're right, the Casket doesn't say it targets anything . . . except enemy units. It also doesn't say it works against units in close combat.

The difference between the other spells and Casket is two-fold. Firstly, other items have been FAQ'd that they can, the Casket has not. Second, the comet is indescriminate and hits both friend and foe, the Casket discriminates, thus until otherwise errata'd it can't effect units in close combat.

End of story.

Necromancy Black
08-12-2009, 05:55
Does the casket description ever use the word "target" or does is have the same wording as Kroq-gar's bound item?

gdsora
08-12-2009, 05:58
You're right, the Casket doesn't say it targets anything . . . except enemy units. It also doesn't say it works against units in close combat.


End of story.

Im really sorry, but you can't include the word target,
When the rules for the light of death, do not include target.

Many spells, say
*This spell can be cast upon one enemy unit.*
*Target one enemy unit.*

The rules for the light of death
Do not include that kind of wording


Light of Death
If successfully cast it affects all enemy units that can draw a line of sight to the casket itself

Kroq-Gar's Hand of Gods
The hand has a range of 12" and automatically strikes every enemy unit within Kroq-Gar's arc of sight, and its range

Eumerin
08-12-2009, 09:20
As well, I challenge you to find an official FAQ. I'll save you the trouble, no such thing exists.

Maybe not, but this seems close enough -

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m470835_Tomb_Kings_FAQ_2008-02_Edition.pdf


The FAQ posted on GW's official site includes the following -

- A description of how Magic Resistance works against the Casket (you find the potentially affected unit with the highest MR rating and use that MR and only that MR).
- That description includes four uses of the words 'affect' and 'affected'.
- That description includes zero uses of the word 'target' or any derivation of that word.
- That description includes the phrase, "... the Light of Death counts as magic that affects any enemy unit that can see the Casket..."

Obviously, given what you've stated, you're not particularly inclined to pay attention to this particular section of the FAQ with regards to the question that we're discussing here. But it's worth noting nonetheless.



Personally I've always played the game where anything in close combat doesn't have LoS to things outside of the combat (even if on a hill).

I used to think the same way myself (it's not something that comes up often) until one of my opponents used his greater daemon to cast a spell on a unit behind the one that he was in close combat with at the time...

>.<

Nekrodamus
08-12-2009, 11:07
I thought we passed the 'target' stuff allready, as the casket clearly targets nothing but itself. The possible victims are only 'affected' by seeing the light - and there's no doubt that units in CC may be 'affected' by something (accidentally and intentionally).

The only question is, whether a unit in CC still can have any line of sight as this is mandatory to be affected by the casket.

Since this is not an army related but a general question, the name of the author of this (or any other) army book is irrelevant. Of course Gav was a game designer so his answer seemed to be official that time.

But obviously no other designer had or has the same attitude towards this question, since the following TK-FAQ, the Chronicles and especially the 7th ed. RB never included this statement.

Imagine you started with the 7th edition and never saw an FAQ for former editions: Would you be in doubt or even ask about LOS in CC?

Necromancy Black
08-12-2009, 14:41
Imagine you started with the 7th edition and never saw an FAQ for former editions: Would you be in doubt or even ask about LOS in CC?

No.

There are rules for LOS. There are no rules anywhere that change these rules for Close Combat. Therefore, units in close combat still follow the same rules for LOS.

Rules for LOS exist, rules that change LOS in any way while in close combat don't exist.

This is the same as magic. Rules for casting magic exist. The only part of it that stops you casting spells while in combat are for magic missiles. You can cast all other spells provided any restrictions are met.

For the most part this means having LOS to a unit that is not in close combat. This is hard when there is a giant unit right in front of you that's in close combat, blocking you LOS as per the normal LOS rules.
So for a lot of spells you need a target on a hill, a large target or for your wizard to have the large target rule.

gdsora
08-12-2009, 14:57
The only thing that would stop the CoS from effecting guys in combat. Is they can no see it due to interposing models.
Of course if its on a hill,then they can see it

Grimgormx
08-12-2009, 17:05
CoS Doesnt has aoe, it doesnt targets anything, the word is affects units that have LOS to it.

So, units fighting in cc are affected?

Can they draw a LOS? I would say they cant, thats why a wizard engaged in combat cant cast a Magic missile because he doesnt has LOS.

Can they draw LOS if the CoS is in a hill? Can a wizzard engaged in CC cast a maggic missile to the CoS in a hill? the same answerd is for the 2 questions.

Beside this argument, Gav answered that units in CC arent affected, its a shame that he didnt said why they arent affected.

I think that the casket kills enemies causing letal horror, thats why it is checked vs leadership, and to feal that horror you have to see what comes out from the casket, and I would said that any soldier engaged in cc is to busy watching his enemy sword to pay attention to a box full of souls.

Lord Zarkov
08-12-2009, 17:20
a wizard can't cast a magic missile in combat because they're specifically banned from casting magic missiles when in combat. He could still cast something like Conflagration of Doom (which requires LoS but isn't a mm) at a casket on a hill iin front of him since he still has LoS to it.

Edit:
Similarly wizards that are Large Targets may cast non-MM LoS requiring spells at models behind the combat.

MarcoPollo
08-12-2009, 17:23
Why doesn't someone make a poll.

There is no clear answer and all that we are seeing on this thread is partisanship and lobbying.

Poll it and put it to rest.

Yellow Commissar
08-12-2009, 18:10
Interesting debate. Many good points have been made.

What is of interest to me is that the Magic Resistance rule has been changed by the new errata. Magic resistance now works when the magic resistant unit is targeted. This seems to conflict with the older tomb king faq granting magic resistance to units affected by the casket.

Targeting itself seems to be an ill-defined term in the game. Many times in the BRB other wording is used instead. I cannot say for sure if the casket targets units or not.

I would normally be inclined to accept the army book authors own answer in cases like this. However, the fact that it has been removed from the GW site makes we pause.

At the end of the day, I think I can only say that this is a situation that is not fully covered by the rules. Therefore I am instructed by the rules to interpret the rule as best I can or come up with a suitable house rule. I like the idea of rolling a d6 each time it used and on a 4+ it affects units in close combat.

Alternatively, if my opponent has a strong opinion about it, i can just agree to play it his way.

If playing in a tournament, I'm sure any good organizer would provide a ruling before the event to clarify it.

Again, many good points have been made. I've found myself swayed back and forth. I think both sides are "right".;)

Staurikosaurus
08-12-2009, 19:53
Maybe not, but this seems close enough -

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m470835_Tomb_Kings_FAQ_2008-02_Edition.pdf


The FAQ posted on GW's official site

The FAQ, which by their own admission is unofficial.

I'll take the word of the army book's author over any amount of pandering for advantage. In addition, Gav's response has been removed from the site for three reasons in my opinion. 1. The forums were shut down. 2. Gav no longer works for games workshop. 3. We have never known GW to have an attention to detail or client base when it comes to answering FAQs.

Covalent
08-12-2009, 21:22
Why doesn't someone make a poll.

There is no clear answer and all that we are seeing on this thread is partisanship and lobbying.

Poll it and put it to rest.

Poll doesn't solve anything, it will just measure the amount of people that are for or against CoS working in CC.

And on another note, I would let a TK's CoS affect units in CC for the sole reason that they aren't overpowered in any way and don't mind giving them a small help to beat me :D

Necromancy Black
09-12-2009, 00:43
Can they draw a LOS? I would say they cant, thats why a wizard engaged in combat cant cast a Magic missile because he doesnt has LOS.

Thank you for making stuff up. But that's not helping.



Can they draw LOS if the CoS is in a hill? Can a wizzard engaged in CC cast a maggic missile to the CoS in a hill? the same answerd is for the 2 questions.

Magic missiles can not be cast if a wizard is in close combat because it's specifically stated in the rules they can't! This doesn't apply to any other form of magic. A wizard in close combat that can see a unit on a hill can still cast a non-magic missile at it, like Forked Lightning or Spirit of the Forge.

As I've stated several times, there are no additional rules for LOS while in close combat. This does not allow you to ignore the existing rules for LOS, that's pretty close to cheating.



Beside this argument, Gav answered that units in CC arent affected, its a shame that he didnt said why they arent affected.

And since then GW has made several small but significant changes including changing MR and saying that several other spells that only affect things do affect close combat. Oh, and any mention of Gav's answer doesn't exist on GW's site.




And on another note, I would let a TK's CoS affect units in CC for the sole reason that they aren't overpowered in any way and don't mind giving them a small help to beat me :D

Same. When I started with this thread I was actually of the opinion that despite the rules it would be better to not have it affect close combat but now I see it makes perfect sense following the rules and it's not that huge and advantage.