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Anarnaxe
07-11-2009, 23:59
First of all, read this
This is not wishlisting, a critique on the codex or the Studio, nor is it a topic to debate whether or not the codex works. This is to be a friendly discussion, not a flame war or an insultfest. Don't argue for arguing sakes. This is a WHAT IF topic, meaning everyone's opinion is valid. If you can't accept that, remember the saying, "You can't say anything nice, don't say anything". Insult someone, and I will this topic. Like I said, this is supposed to be a friendly discussion.

Right, with that out of the way, onto the topic.

Something that occurs in most updates of any codex is the addition of a new unit, be it Infantry, Character type or a Vehicle. Sometimes, these units have existed before, either in a previous edition (such as Penal Legion squads) or introduced through a third party (Anything that has made the jump from Forge World to 40K or the Black Library, or several units introduced in Epic).

We all know that this didn't happen with the current Chaos codex, the only major addition was Huron Blackheart, though it is debatable if he is new because the character has existed in one form or another since 2nd Edition.

So, heres the topic. Come up with 3 ideas for new additions for the Chaos Space Marine codex, with the following guidelines;
*One Unit Type (This can be an Infantry unit, Biker unit or something similar)
*One Character Type (Not Special Characters, but rather the likes of Interrogator Chaplains, Masters of the Forge, Lord Commissars, etc)
*One Vehicle Type (This can be a variation on an existing tank, or if you prefer a new tank or vehicle.)
*You can add rules, just keep them short, this is about ideas, not an experimental rules thread.
*Any or all ideas may be legion specific, just be sure to mention it, e.g. A Night Lords Terror Master instead of just a Terror Master.
*Keep the ideas reasonable and in character with Chaos, Daemon engines..... fun, Daemon Prince with a DeathStrike Missile strapped to his wrist.....not so much.
*An expanded wargear is something everyone wants, so for the sake of this topic, its just the Unit, Character and Vehicle

Again, just to say again, this is just a discussion thread, not a debate whether the codex needs new units. You don't like an idea, fine, its an idea, build a bridge and get over it (Sorry if this topic has too many rules, but frankly too many Chaos Threads tend to degenerate into a seething mass of hatred and insult hurling).

Lets see what you guys can come up with.

mightymconeshot
08-11-2009, 01:10
i would love to see some chaos cultist. i dont play chaos so i have no idea on rules and things but i would to see group size 10-20. maybe 3 points a piece a guy. assorted weapons counts a cc and las pistol. maybe ability to get overseer and so on.

Dr.Clock
08-11-2009, 01:24
When I think about this... it's actually really difficult to come up with anything whose role is not already taken.

Having enjoyed playing scout-heavy loyalist forces... I'd say something along the lines of renegade aspirants... a unit of crazed human nutters in the process of becoming new Renegade marines.

Scouts with WS/BS 4, flak armour, BP/CCW or shotguns, lead by Enforcers (1-3 chosen), may take infiltrate, counter-attack, furious assault, or carapace armour. Unit strength 5-15 (plus Enforcers). Elite Choice.

New HQ would be a herald who would deepstrike and carries icons that affect all Lesser Daemon Packs. Would also have access to Icon Specific retinue - flamers, Bloodcrushers, Seekers or Beasts of Nurgle.

Vehicle: something to go with the Aspirants a la Land Speeder Storm - a salamander scout vehicle that may outflank and carry icon... carries up to 8 aspirants

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Drakon
08-11-2009, 01:28
i second the chaos cultist as most times it is a small band of chaos troops manipulating the cultist to do as they want.

On a allies side. CSM should be able to allie with Daemons. Its chaos and chaos, just makes sense doesnt it?

The Anarchist
08-11-2009, 01:37
would love to see chaos jet bikes after all legions like the emperors children had these and they would make amazing centerpieces to an army. also really stick in the craw of DA players lol. limit them to small units similar to thunderwolf cavalry, but make them bang for your buck and unreliable in the typical chaos manner.

other than that bring in some of the units from Lost and the Dammned, or just a cheap screen of cultists. we use to ahve them way back when so lets get them back :)

Murphys Avatar
08-11-2009, 01:51
I also go with the need for cultists. It just adds the whole Chaos thing to the army.

My vehicle of choice would be a dreadnought that is worth taking. Maybe variant machines like the blood slaughtere or blight drone.

The last thing i can think of would be the dreadclaw drop pods. Now that would be cool!!

Anarnaxe
08-11-2009, 01:57
I think Dreadnoughts and Dreadclaws are both vehicles.

One choice each in the UNIT, CHARACTER TYPE & VEHICLE.

So some of you still have some choices left.

Squallish
08-11-2009, 02:02
Points are guesses for power, but not set in stone ;)

Infantry:
Chaos Major Daemons 13pts each, + cost of the mark below per model - Elite Choice, but do not occupy a force organization slot. Summoned as per Greater and Lesser Daemons.

Same statline as Lesser Daemons, but you must choose a mark from below:
Undivided -- 2pts/model - gain Fleet, Musician (codex Daemons)
Khorne -- 4pts/model - +1A, +1 Str
Nurgle -- 6pts/model - +1T, +1W
Slaanesh -- 5pts/model - +1WS, +1I, Rending
Tzeentch -- 3pts/model - 3BS, 12" S4 AP5 Assault 3 shooting attack

===========

Character:
Chaos Daemon King
As the Daemon Prince, but gains 4+ Inv base (3+ with Tzeentch), T8, S8 for +80pts.

===========

Vehicle:
Chaos Basilisk
As per the Iron Warriors Entry from the last codex. Can be possessed.

ehlijen
08-11-2009, 02:21
Honestly, what does chaos need? And if it were to have absolutely everything, would it have any character left?

They've got speed with raptors, bikes, wings and rhinos.
They've got resilience being Meqs in addition to access to land raiders, cheap termies and nurgle units and marks.
They've got firepower with the ability to put heavy weapons into every elite, troop and heavy support slot.
They've even got cheapish scoring units for spamming with deamons.
They have the super sneaky deployment game down with plenty of access to summoning, deep striking and infiltrating.
From infantry to bikes to wings to tanks, they've got all the unit types available (apart from artillery which is frankly the least capable out of the box).

The only thing they don't get is indirect fire, and they never really needed it either. Firing inaccurately while not being shot at in return is something for armies that don't spend an entire factory week's worth of gear to protect each individual soldier. The marines (good or bad) don't need to hide, the guard do.

It's not that I don't want to see more chaos stuff, it's just that I don't see it being anything other than either:
a) not as good as something else thus becoming redundant
b) better than something else thus makeing something redundant
In the end, players will still complain that they're left with but a handful of choices as they do now despite having one of the codices with the highest number of unit entries.

Cleveland
08-11-2009, 04:13
things I would change:...

1.) I would like to see an addition for Dark Apostles, and not just for people that play Word Bearers lists...you would think, as followers and worshipers of gods that DEMAND worship, they would have some type of character that would be a conduit to "voice" of those gods...

2.) I would like to see a change to the Dreadnoughts...the list of outcomes on the "Amok" list makes using a Dread a secondary issue, while with Marine forces, a Dread is almost a necessity...

3.) as for something new, I would like to see Dark Mechanicum models on the board, like a Dark Techpriest that can do something akin to repairing vehicles...I think that there should be a requirement for it though, such as requiring possession of vehicles so that the Techpriest can affect the repair...

Inquisitor Engel
08-11-2009, 04:51
*One Unit Type (This can be an Infantry unit, Biker unit or something similar)

Cultists worth taking.


*One Character Type (Not Special Characters, but rather the likes of Interrogator Chaplains, Masters of the Forge, Lord Commissars, etc)

Word Bearer's Dark Apostle.

It's in there, it needs to happen. There's no reason the idea of a preacher of the Dark Gods hasn't seeped into other legions, whether it be a true Dark Apostle, a follower who likes to spread the word or a particularly zealous individual whose actions or words spur those around him to greater acts for the Chaos powers would be the same rules wise.


*One Vehicle Type (This can be a variation on an existing tank, or if you prefer a new tank or vehicle.)

Chaos Basilisk. There's a good indication that the traitor legions had something similar during the heresy and the Iron Warriors straight up steal them from guard units they slaughter.

Chem-Dog
08-11-2009, 05:37
Character: Something that has always bugged me about 40K is the fact that characters can't ever be allowed to be as good as their troops at various niche abilities, Jump Pack wearing commanders are invariably less effective than their force's dedicated Jump pack troops, for example. SO I'd like to see CSM's embrace the niche (without getting into the whole Cult thing), I would love to see something like a Raptor lord who allows additional Raptor squads. Obliterators, Possesed ect ect. If any codex should allow you to ignore tactical or strategic flexibility in favour of coolness it should be the CSM's. Just think about it....All Terminator CSM army....

Unit: Again not entirely convinced there's something lacking here, unless we're getting into Cult issues. I quite like the idea of Jetbikes but for the cool factor rather than to fill any gaps.
I think Nurgle alligned armies, or at least Nurgle themed armies should deffinitely get access to Plague Zombies.

Vehicle Anything that brings variety to the "Astartes with spikes" feel of the CSM motorpool will be a fantastic addition, the Defiler is a brave step in that direction, at the moment I'm not sure where you'd go from there though, Possessed Daemon Artillery (a'la Storm of Iron)? A mobile chaos altar? Corrupted Robots (probably should wait to see the Adeptus Mechanicus make an appearance on the battlefield first...)?
Perhaps significant variations on the Defiler are sufficient? For example, I personally would balk at the idea of including a Defiler in a Khorne themed list because of the ruddy great battlecannon, so What about dropping the guns, adding some more stabby/smashy/slashy bits and calling it a blood slaughterer? I could see each of the Gods getting a Defiler Variant in a similar vein, Slaanesh getting a version bristling with sonic weapons, a Nurgle one being ...well... you know...plague-y and Tzeench having a wealth of sorcery type abilities. *shrug*

Oh, and Dreadclaws....



Cultists worth taking.


THey're only ever going to be useful in a CSM army as cannon fodder though aren't they?
Perhaps allow sorcerors to expend them for extra sorceryness or as a way of bringing Daemons into the game?? Hell, why not let Berzerkers assault them giving them an extra burst of movement before they assault the enemy :evilgrin:?

Count de Monet
08-11-2009, 05:54
[size=5][color="#FF0000"]
*One Unit Type (This can be an Infantry unit, Biker unit or something similar)


Minions - catch all unit for cultists, mutants, and other auxiliaries. Basically baseline guard statline, X points makes them mutants or zombies or cultists or guard-equivalents each with different changes to the stats/options.



*One Character Type (Not Special Characters, but rather the likes of Interrogator Chaplains, Masters of the Forge, Lord Commissars, etc)

Binder - whereas Chaos Sorcerors spend their efforts developing their power over the warp in the form of spells, Binders spend theirs in developing power over the entities that dwell there. Have options for various gear, always count as having a personal icon, give some benefit to lesser daemons in the army, maybe be able to buy some daemonhost retinue or a cheap daemonhost bodybag that can be used to summon a Greater Daemon without having to sacrifice an expensive and useful squad AC.



*One Vehicle Type (This can be a variation on an existing tank, or if you prefer a new tank or vehicle.)

Land Raider Desecrator - Some great Chaos Marine leaders achieve daemonhood, some fall to spawndom, some die, some are interred in dreadnoughts. A few find themselves interred in a different shell, that of a specially modified Land Raider which uses a combination of the techniques of dreadnought tech and daemon engine binding to infuse the spirit and consciousness of the champion into the tank to replace the former machine spirit. The prophet's new home becomes part chariot, part temple, part instrument of wrath. Land Raider with some options to change out/add some weapons, acts as an icon in its own right, counts as possessed, maybe some extra abilities like an inv save or venerable equivalent, inspirational effects on nearby CSM units.

mattschuur
08-11-2009, 06:14
Unit- Cultists. They'd fill the role of scouts and make the 30 I own a valid unit again.

Character- Dark Apostle. Doesn't necessarily have to be only word bearers but it's a bit sucky that chaos has all of 3 Character types while marines have 5+ and currently they lack a character of the chaplain type.

Vehicle- Dreadclaws. Only makes sense with creation of the Drop pod. Really all they'd need is a single sprue with various chaos like upgrades.

Rules- I'd like Daemonic possession to allow, essentially, the machine spirit rule. Chaos land raiders stay current price just increase DP to 30, making them on par with loyalists. The lack of variation and smaller transport makes this an even trade for ignoring shaken and stunned.

Some others- a Master of the forge-esque character who is allowed to take daemonic shooting weapons like the Kai gun.

Undivided Legion specific options, for example: Taking a Lord with a Jump pack allows X units of Raptors to be taken as troops (effectively creating a Night Lords force). Taking a Chaos master of forge allows X number of predators/dreds to be taken as troops for Iron warriors, etc.

Finally, a new rule i'd like is "Will of Chaos". Basically this gives all Chaos space marines the rules of an icon of Chaos glory without an icon. This will allow basic marines with one of the 4 gods icons to be less prone to running away. It makes little sense to me why a Chaos marine who simply breaks from his religion now knows fear and why marines who can't commit are more likely to hold their position than those who've picked an Icon to fight under. You'd think those who've decided who to fight for would have more convictions.

Matt Schuur

Garanaul the Black
08-11-2009, 06:29
Honestly, what does chaos need? And if it were to have absolutely everything, would it have any character left?


QFT, although our own Land Raider variant wouldn't seem over the top or out of place, might I suggest this (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Land_Raider_Prometheus) little beauty? :D


Land Raider Desecrator - Some great Chaos Marine leaders achieve daemonhood, some fall to spawndom, some die, some are interred in dreadnoughts. A few find themselves interred in a different shell, that of a specially modified Land Raider which uses a combination of the techniques of dreadnought tech and daemon engine binding to infuse the spirit and consciousness of the champion into the tank to replace the former machine spirit. The prophet's new home becomes part chariot, part temple, part instrument of wrath. Land Raider with some options to change out/add some weapons, acts as an icon in its own right, counts as possessed, maybe some extra abilities like an inv save or venerable equivalent, inspirational effects on nearby CSM units.

I like this as well, very characterful.

G

meno1
08-11-2009, 07:36
For character, going with Chem-Dogs idea I'd love to see Lords of particular aspects which allow say 2 units of that aspect to become troops. A Raptor Lord leading the charge of 4 units of raptors would be sick! They have that in Dawn of War (Raptor Lord and Chosen Lord), so why not on the tabletop?

For unit the only thing missing is cannon-fodder IMO, some mutants (from the Lost and Damned) or cultists (especially for themed armies) would go along nicely. Cultists would have Conscripts stats perhaps, at 5/8p per model.

And finally vehicles...Hmm I'm thinking a flyer, a Hell Talon would be a great centrepiece model! That would be...
BS AV 125p
3 10
Skimmer, 24' movement
Equipment:
2 Heavy Bolters
-Add 2 Lascannons 30p each
-Add 2 Heavy Stubbers 10p each
or replace with Bolters free

Frag Bomb
Large Blast Marker
S5 AP4

Biotoxin Bomb (+2 poison)
Large Blast Marker
S7 AP5

Vetro Thrusters
-Can move, fire/release bomb, then move and fire what's remaining up to a distance of 24'

Griffindale
08-11-2009, 08:07
I would add legions to the chaos codex book. I just don't feel that the current codex is "legion-ey" enough.

Xisor
08-11-2009, 08:22
Chaos stuff what died out, innit?

Which is to say, stuff which the Legions might have had, but that the Chaos Legions still have access to.

Consider:
- Imperial Jetbikes
- Ancient artillery weapons (imagine something on a smaller scale than that seen in Fallen Angels)
- Odder weapons
- Access to unique or odd methods of deployment. (Who wouldn't like to see a proper Dreadclaw deployment, eh?)

Of course, I'm not filled with ideas, but take the older stuff and run with it. Add in unorthodox tactics. The folks mentioning Dark Apostles; go for it.

The style of the current codex works well enough, the trouble is that if feels so bland to use. There's very little 'adventure' or 'fun' in planning a list. Sure it's easy and arguably (more) nicely balanced than before; but it just doesn't sit well with folks. I think the 'lack of new cool stuff' was the central problem; if there'd been plenty of that (like in the IG 'dex) then no-one would've cared if the finished product was just as 'balanced' or game-top effective as the one we have.

Some more interesting stuff, 'tis all! Old Legion artillery, odd patterns of vehicles, daemon-weapons for vehicles, inventive ways to deploy the infantry, inventive or just-plain-odd ways of formatting an army.

Doesn't need to be anything big or massive, nor does it need to break away from the style of the current 'dex. Just a bit more feeling!

Raphaus
08-11-2009, 11:10
Unit: Cultists/mutants, like everyone else has said these would be a characterful choice that isn't overpowered. I'd definately dig out my CSM and add a bunch of cultists.

Character: Cult Leader, low points and low ability HQ choice, good for themed armies and would let Chaos players have some crazy low point options. (Imagine a ton of cultists, mutants, spawn and lesser daemons.)

Vehicle: Trickier because in theory CSM could be using any Imperial vehicles. That said it would be more characterful if they could have one of their own. I do like the idea of the Land Raider Desecrator but Legion artillery excites me as well. Can't I have both?

Firaxin
08-11-2009, 21:15
Unit:
Possessed which can choose their mutation AND have more wargear options (jump packs, terminator armor, weapons, etc).

Character:
A lucid, venerable, possessed(?), dreadnought.

Vehicle:
Death Wheel; like what General Grevious was driving around in Episode III, +spikes.

Chem-Dog
08-11-2009, 21:35
Minions


YES!
Just for the name and the opportunity to make the finger pyramid of evil contemplation.



Vehicle:
Death Wheel; like what General Grevious was driving around in Episode III, +spikes.

Doomwheel of Doom and spikeyness :D

EDIT.
Just had an idea, perhaps a walking transport? A Defiler with a troop capacity in place of it's battlecannon or something. Something that encourages or at least supports squads larger than 10.

Pushkin
08-11-2009, 21:53
Hmm I think what the codex really needs is a 2 wound HQ similar to a chaplain and some more fast attack options (as well as the obvious fixing dreads possessed etc.) How about:

HQ:
Black Cardinal
Counts as Chaplain
Upgrade w. MoC for specialist: Plague Cardinal/Master of Change etc.

Fast Attack:
How about champions mounted on their respective gods steed for example:

1-5 Reapers 80pts each
Chaos Sorcerers on Discs of Tzeentch armed with Power Scythes and Bolt pistols

Heavy Support:

Plague Cannon
Counts as Basilisk (Need HQ with mark of Nurgle to take)

Warp Engine of Tzeentch
Armed with Warp Cannon and Doombolters (Need hQ with MOT to take)
Counts as Lemun Russ with Heavy bolter sponsons w. AP 3

JagdWehrwolf
09-11-2009, 18:45
Here goes:
Unit: Space Marine Renegades - pretty much a tactical squad without ATSKNF (to represent their treason), without Combat Tactics (to show unit operating away from the chain of command that they were trained to respect and follow), and Ld of 8 (showing begining of their road to self-sufficiency). Options would include the Stick of God (current Icon) and slightly pricier normal options, maybe with some limitations (to show lack of ability to maintain more complicated equipment).
Character: This one was inspired by a discussion on a different Chaos thread. With special thanks to Almighty Nocturnus.
Death Guard Apothecary - normal SM Apothecary stats (except Ld10) plus Badge of Legionnaire (personal term, meaning in that case +1 to T and FNP) and... I must admit that I`m stuck. I see them as the "good souls" of Father Nurgle that tend to the wounded of the fields by granting them their patron "blessings" and individuals responcible for carrying and spreading the Destroyer Plague unto Loyal Astartes fallen in battle in hope of creating fresh (not sure if this is an apropriate word ;) ) Death Guard recruits.
Vehicle: Cult Dreadnoughts. Raging Dreads of Khorne (two DCCWs, I don`t think that BA would mind), Rubric Dreads of Tzeentch (S&P, All is Dust), Noise Dreads of Slaanesh (obivous) and Plague Dreads of Nurgle.
P.S. I second everything that Count De Monet said. Maybe with a small change on the character of possesion of a Desecrator. But anyways awesome stuff.

LKHERO
09-11-2009, 18:58
Seriously? I don't need any more units in the CSM codex.

I would just like to see the following:
All Marks makes the unit Fearless.
Mark of Khorne = +1A, Furious Charge.
Mark of Slaneesh = +1I, Fleet, Sonic Weapons.
Mark of Nurgle = +1T, FNP, Blight Grenades.
Mark of Tzeetch = +1 to their Invulnerable save, Force Weapons, +more spells.
Mark of Undivided = cheapest Mark, re-roll morale checks.

I would like to see more equipment, armory upgrades, weapons specific to these Marks. This applies to all heroes and units.

I would like to see Veteran skills back. This applies to all heroes and units.

I would like to see CSM take these Marks on their many of their units. Such as Raptors with Mark of Khorne. A Dread with Mark of Slaneesh so they can use Sonic Weaponry.

I would like to see the sacred numbers back. 6 for Slaneesh, 7 for Nurgle, 8 for Khorne, 9 for Tzeentch. Good number = some extra goodies.

I would like to see CSM take Daemon allies from the Daemon Codex.

I would like to see a few other minor stuff..

Yes. Yes, I can dream of a day when this will happen.

Anarnaxe
09-11-2009, 21:12
Ok, no offense folks, but this is an idea topic (or a What If, if you prefer), not a debate whether the codex needs new units or not. There are plenty of other topics asking in what areas the codex needs improvement. This isn't one of them.

Sinner_74
09-11-2009, 23:57
I only really want to see 2 things in a Chaos codex:

Units: I'm totally on board with the cultists or chaos "guard" units ala The Lost and The Damned

Vehicle: 2 words - Stalk Tanks. After reading Double Eagle and the Sabbat worlds crusade, these things just need to be given life in the game...

mightymconeshot
10-11-2009, 00:16
whoever metioned dread claws. they are fundamentally differnt. it would take more then an upgrade spurce to pull that off.

Garanaul the Black
10-11-2009, 23:15
Vehicle: 2 words - Stalk Tanks. After reading Double Eagle and the Sabbat worlds crusade, these things just need to be given life in the game...



Care to elaborate for those of us who haven't read these books?


G