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Vote Kantor
11-11-2009, 08:51
A few friends of mine have been playing 40k for a few years and are now starting to collect fantasy as-well.
My friends are collecting Empire (most likely gunline, highly tactical) and Lizardmen (Whatever looks coolest)

I am down to two choices:

Warriors of Chaos: Great looking army, but I don't want to use many marauders because I don't like the models.

Vampire Counts: I really like skeletons and some of the models are awesome, however I hear that they are really broken.

I like the feel of these armies, but want to have a fair, fun game, any advice would be great thanks.

Orcboy_Phil
11-11-2009, 08:58
I'd have to say warriors, becuase they are at least more intreasting to play agasint than Vampire Counts. They might just march forward but at least they don't spam single dice.

Jind_Singh
11-11-2009, 09:07
Your poll isnt working! I wanted to vote 'other'

PLEASE dont be taken in by the cries of "Its broken", nothing is broken in the game - it depends on how you as a player make your army.

When looking at armies look at the models 1st and formost. you have to buy them, build them, paint them, and then play with them. if any of the previous 4 dont appeal its not the right army for you!

Either way the 2 armies play very differntly -

Characters

Strong characters in the vampires that are too valuble to get in the enemies faces - as if they die you lose a large part of your army strength. Compare this to warriors were the characters are made to run at people, fast!

magic

Both armies love the magic phase and both excell at it - however with VC you have no choice but to play the magic phase, were the warriors can leave home with it - but they also have some of the most destructive castors out there (Tzeentch dude casting the gateway, ouch!!)

combat

VC tend to wear their enemy down and then use spells to 'dance' units into enemy flanks, raise the dead, etc, and have a few hard hitting combat units (Blood Knights, Black Knights, Vargulf, Wraiths), were the WoC hit hard with everything!!

Overall the 2 armies are so different, VC are slower moving but have tricks to make them faster, were the WoC can be super fast on the move.

WoC allow for multiple themes (4 Gods to dedicate your soul to, unmarked chaos is also option), you like a mixed force, an all warriors force, all marauder (in your case not option!), all beast (Throgg jumps to mind). But with all these choices the army still plays out the same after a while, run forwards and attack!!! But you need to be a good general to make the army work out, its not a 'point and click' army like deamons (my 1st army I played)

Both are actually great armies to play, I suggest you wonder down to your local store and read the back stories for both armies. Look though the pictures to see how the models take your fancy, and see overall which army sets your mind on fire!!! Thats the one (so to speak).
And on the gaming circle, both can do well (though VC are ranked higher in the list) and you can play/build a VC list that people will actually enjoy facing, no one says you got to squeeze out all the cheese from it!
Long post but hope it helps

Nicha11
11-11-2009, 09:14
I really like skeletons and some of the models are awesome, however I hear that they are really broken.

I like the feel of these armies, but want to have a fair, fun game, any advice would be great thanks.

How's about Tomb Kings, great models, and fun rules/background (more skeletons then VC:D)

The only drawback is they aren't that easy to use.

Orcboy_Phil
11-11-2009, 09:24
Also the models arn't yhat great either compared to the new VC skeletons.

The Red Scourge
11-11-2009, 09:25
Vampire Counts: I really like skeletons and some of the models are awesome, however I hear that they are really broken.

You don't have to make a 'broken' army, just because the option is there. The VC is a fun army with a more varied selection of troops than WoC :)

KayazyAssassin
11-11-2009, 09:31
dont put out tomb kings because you like the vampire counts skellies better depending on which army you like vamps or tomb kings you could just use the vamp skellies

Dai-Mongar
11-11-2009, 09:33
Vamps really are only a major problem if you go magic-heavy. You could just as easily go with CC oriented Vamp characters with just enough magic to keep your army together and moving.
Personally, I like WoC's mini range better than VC. The new Vamps are... wierd, and there are too many out-dated undead models from 4th edition. WoC might have a few from that era, but they hold up far better than the undead.

Sirroelivan
11-11-2009, 12:10
Just noting that you can use lots of models for marauders instead of the 'official' ones. Empire Flagellates can be used with some minor changes. Beastmen are suitable too. You could even use converted empire state troops if that fits in your army theme. Possibilities are endless.

Xzazzarai
11-11-2009, 13:19
VC are not broken.

They might be one of the stronger armies, according to some... Though, I for one think that so many have trouble deaing with them beacuse VC are so much diffrent from the rest of the armies out there.
It takes practice and a some what open mind to deal with them effectively.

WoC, can be troublesome as well with their insane armour saves. Me, playing Dark Elves, am having a Really hard time breaking down my friends WoC army!
You just gotta find ways around it...

Pick the army you like and don't bother too much about what others say. =)

Cheers!

Lijacote
11-11-2009, 14:43
WoC are a bit one-dimensional army, as far as I've seen. They can be fun, sure, but I think the Vampire Counts have a lot more potential to capture your interest. Skeletons aren't that broken either, so go wild.

artisturn
11-11-2009, 15:15
Play the army that will make you happy,don't let the the fact that some people are calling VC broken from stopping you from picking this army if it is the one you would like to play.

Now one thing about the VC is they don't have that many shooting options they have a Banshee that screams at troops to cause damage so if you want an army that has more shooting options than I would go with WOC.

But pick the army you would like to build,paint and play.

Lordsaradain
11-11-2009, 21:27
WoC. They have the coolest model range, fielding a decent army should be pretty cheap (plastic knights dont cost alot) and their book isn't as broken as VC's.

Maoriboy007
11-11-2009, 21:32
I'd have to say warriors, becuase they are at least more intreasting to play agasint than Vampire Counts. They might just march forward but at least they don't spam single dice.

I'm sorry, you haven't heard about the flickering fire spell yet?

Warriors are admittedly not quite as good as VC in some ways but they are not very far off . They've got some great combat troops, MArauders are cheap yet decent fighters (marauder horse are some of the best light cavalry in the game), chaos warriors and knights are a bit more expensive but set the standard for excellence in the game. Lots of options and some nice combos, strangly enough, magic is the best way to go in character choice.Indeed a WoC magic list can give your Lack of skirmishers and fliers (barring characters) is a bit annoying, but afore mentioned cavalry make up for it.

VC can be fun or as boring as you make it (as are many armies).For a fun game avoid the bunker (Lord with all the magic bloodlines Helm of command and skullstaff hidden in a unit behind rest of army)
A good mix of combat and magic is usually the best way to go, you will have to learn how to use undead infantry effectivly , and the rare choices aren't too bad (I seem to be the only person that doesn't like Bloodknights though. Great Models, naff unit)
Keeping to a couple of invocations and throwing a handful of dice a other spells (wind of undeath is my favourite) is pretty fair in a friendly environment.
If you opponant brings handfuls of dispel dice and breaks out scrolls all the time, then he deserves what he gets and should be buried in single dice spam.
At <2000 points VC aren't that great, VC Heros aren't all that durable and make passable fighters, but are still fair. You'll need to keep the general ultra safe though.

Lordsaradain
11-11-2009, 21:44
I'm sorry, you haven't heard about the flickering fire spell yet?

You cant SPAM it with one character. Your caster, can if he chooses, cast it once every turn with one die. There's a big difference if you compare them to VC.

Maoriboy007
11-11-2009, 21:59
You cant SPAM it with one character. Your caster, can if he chooses, cast it once every turn with one die. There's a big difference if you compare them to VC.

The best magic missile on the game that can be as easily cast on one dice by every wizard in your army if you so choose. The difference is in how it works, not its power. Invocation will raise a couple of Zombies or Ghouls, FF will remove Knights and Chariot, choose which you would rather happen.

Lordsaradain
11-11-2009, 22:15
The best magic missile on the game that can be as easily cast on one dice by every wizard in your army if you so choose. The difference is in how it works, not its power. Invocation will raise a couple of Zombies or Ghouls, FF will remove Knights and Chariot, choose which you would rather happen.

FF is totally random. Sure f you are really lucky you might kill a few knights, but it is alot more likely that it won't and you can only cast it once each turn.
To be able to cast 1 FF/turn with a lvl 1 wizard and 1PD you have to pay 105pts minimum. FF is hardly broken.

ChaosVC
12-11-2009, 02:17
I have both VC and warriors and I believe that both armies are equally one dimensional because they are both advancing melee dependant armies with a powerful magic phase. But VC relies on fear, cheap troops and numbers (boasted by magic) while warriors relies on quality of its troop and relatively smaller than the other.

For me, I started playing warhammer with VC but I ended up loving warriors more for its fluff(novels), artworks in the army books (6th & 7th ed) and the endless opportunity for conversion to make the existing models way cooler. I know you don't like the marauders models, especially the banana horns in alot of their heads but perhaps if you look at the ones that are better painted and uses heads from other models like white wolfs or new marauder horsemen etc will make them look better. After all, this is a modelling/game/hobby any short coming of a few models can be rectify with a bit of imagination and creative skills. But to be honest, both VC and warriors have a fair amount of great models and you will definately enjoy painting them. That said, for VC, almost all other models from other armies can be made to look "undead" if you work on them, can be very fun if you ask me.

kardar233
12-11-2009, 02:50
I'm not going to vote on this, but I will offer my advice.

If you, like me, entirely dislike Marauders and intend on making an all-Chaos Armour force, you've got to know that a lot of the game will revolve around luck, as your opponents will be able to out-maneuver you and you're just going to have to hope that your Warriors can survive the first charge so that they can cut apart their opponents.

TheDarkDuke
12-11-2009, 05:23
*Cough* Undead WoC *Cough*

Buy a WoC hero, remove choas symbols tada Vampire Lord.

Mix and match skeletons/grave guard with warriors and knights tada skeletons, grave gaurd, black knights, wights.

Put any WoC/VC model you like on the proper base size, paint in blue/grey/green to make spirit hosts.

Dire Wolves stock models or Warhounds in their place.

Zombies as is or mixed with some marauders.

Or the reverse. If your leaning between the two go Nurgle WoC and add some zombie/skeleton bits into the WoC for a rotting look. I think it was around WD 301-303 there was such a wonderful army like this shown.

I would suggest combining both ideas to play both armies with the same models, but the base size difference I think would be very difficult to change between the two armies.

TheZombieSquig
12-11-2009, 08:44
I collect both VC and WOC and I would recommend VC. I find WOC get boring quickly if I play consecutive games with them, because their playstyle is quite limited. On the other hand, VC have a lot of different options and different synergies to explore.

TzarNikolai
12-11-2009, 13:02
WoC are less forgiving and more challenging than vampire counts.

If your friends are taking empire and lizards, unless the lizard player is planning on taking a slann and the empire player a War altar or steam tanks then I suggest you take Warriors, otherwise you won't actually learn how to play the game.

Dranthar
13-11-2009, 00:45
They're both fine choices.

I used to play VC before moving on to Goblins (Take O&Gs! Funnest army I've ever, ever used!). The VCs were a very good army, but with an entire army of unbreakable units that can be brought back from the dead it got somewhat dull to play - I was just marching into my opponent and playing the attrition game.
With the latest book they've gotten more interesting, but it's still an army that very often requires very little thought to use correctly, especially if you go down the route of just spamming the invocation spell to raise units way above their starting strength and/or taking the Hasslehoff Banner to create a near-unkillable unit.

While I haven't used WoC before, the sentiment about them being limited in playstyle is one I can understand. With no shooting and few units I can see it getting somewhat boring to use, which is why I'd take a Daemon Prince and Hell Cannon if I were to build an army (which gives me a flying terror-causer and a shooter, making the game much more interesting IMO).

I suppose of the two, I'd recommend WoC. But if you do go for them make sure you at least take both shooting and magic, if only to make the army more interesting to use.

Ξ H2O Ξ
13-11-2009, 01:03
Dranthar pretty much has the best approach for combining the nice models, Nurgle WoC or Undead woc VC. Perfik!

As getting around the base size issues for running them as both WoC and VC, putting all the models that will be used as "both" armies put on 20mm bases then stick 25mm bases, upside down, on a movement tray. This means u can use them a VC footies on their 20mm bases in a normal movement tray, then as WoC on their "special" movement tray. Also keeping marks off the dual use models would be a plan, and have interchangeable banners to show marks clearer.

If you don't want "both" army option I think I'd go for VC as have played most fantasy games as WoC so would want a change. Obviously completely biased.
H2O

Ad-Rock
13-11-2009, 02:15
Its entirely possible to make a balanced and fair VC list. They have some fantastic looking models, too.

WoC also have some beautiful models, and their book allows for plenty of different lists which will be fun in friendly matches.

Personally I would go with WoC, just don't take marauders if your don't like them!

Vote Kantor
14-11-2009, 05:19
I've chosen

Warriors of Chaos, using VC skeletons as marauders .

Thanks everyone!

shinankoku
14-11-2009, 20:40
Given that it seems like you don't care about which is stronger (vamps), let me ask you this:

Do you prefer heavy metal or goth?

Do you like Frank Frazetta or Salado Dali?

The Road Warrior or the Phantom of the Opera?

Xena Warrior Princess or Buffy the Vampire Slayer?

Deadwood or True Blood?

In other words: go with the one you like more. Stylistically, that is. (And if you don't like the way marauders look, {<*]!! it, use something you do like. Mounted on the 25 mm base)