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Wolf 11x
11-11-2009, 16:17
I've sold everything but my Tyranids & Wood Elves. ;) Death Guard, Tau, & Lizardmen are gone. :p

Currently, I've got a couple tactical squads and two Rhinos for 40k. I don't think I'll expand that into a full army. Unfortunately, I don't enjoy games of 40k, despite how much I love the Marine & Tyranid fluff. :mad:

I'd prefer to expand to a 2nd Warhammer army. However, I'm unsure of where to go.

On one hand, I want a lot of meaty infantry. That is something I've never had as I played Lizardmen and now Wood Elves. Also, I don't care whether I can do magic or not. I play it on occasion but I prefer to be able to shut my enemies magic down instead. I want a current book that isn't set to be revised anytime soon.

I'm liking High Elves or Empire. Any army suggestions (except Skaven, Chaos, DEs, & Vampires) are greatly appreciated.

Thoughts?

p.s. my best friend is trying to sell a huge HE army for cheap. I'd have to buy Empire new. Not that I mind...

The Red Scourge
11-11-2009, 16:31
Empire is loaded with great options and various playstyles, while the HE are limited to two. Theres a reason your friend is selling those HE, they're quite boring - especially when you come from the dynamic wood elves.

Also consider O&G. As WE are one of the most reliable armies in the game, the complete opposite might be fun - and you get to paint green ;)

Wolf 11x
11-11-2009, 16:37
1,999 posts eh? :p

We've already got an O&G player and I wouldn't want to step on his toes. I can't deal with randomness either.

HE looked diverse to me. Magic, Infantry, Knights, shooting, Dragons...

What are the two playstyles?

redben
11-11-2009, 16:41
Empire may have lots of different builds but only the gunline is really any good. Doing the HE one means you could do it a lot cheaper by using the Mantic models as the core of your army and GW for the specialist troops rather than laying out about the same price buying a couple of Steam Tanks.

willowdark
11-11-2009, 16:44
I like Brets. M@A are cheap. They won't kill anything, and suffer from psychology, but they're there in numbers and any character or knight can lend them their Ld from outside the unit, not just the general.

Don't discount them for being all cav. That's a fallacy. Sure, they function well as a cav heavy army, but you can take skirmishing bowmen, regular bowmen, fast cav, and a Trebuchet. Peg knights work well when supported by Static 5 M@A, though they don't break ranks. Knights Errant are ItP on the charge and can take a sweet banner for +1 strength. You have the mandatory BSB, but he's got great armour, the natural ward and can be kitted out for big SCR. KB on Large Targets for you Peg riding Bret Lord? With Tres of Isoulde you're hitting ona 2+ against that large target. That's pretty good odds.

the major downside is the laborous painting they require. Though I've certainly seen Bret armies painted in a uniform colour scheme.

The Red Scourge
11-11-2009, 16:49
1,999 posts eh? :p

2K ;)

Basically the HE army is either a magic gunline. An Archmage (Teclis if you're into SCs) + support, a few core archers and RBTs with a few special infantry choices to mop up.

Or the Star Dragon Lord supported by a couple of anti-magic wizards, dragon knights, lion chariots and RBTs.

So either a static gunline or rush-in-your-face.

Half the units never see battle like the sea guard, spearmen, reavers and silver helms, which reeks of poor design.

Wolf 11x
11-11-2009, 16:51
2K ;)

Basically the HE army is either a magic gunline. An Archmage (Teclis if you're into SCs) + support, a few core archers and RBTs with a few special infantry choices to mop up.

Or the Star Dragon Lord supported by a couple of anti-magic wizards, dragon knights, lion chariots and RBTs.

So either a static gunline or rush-in-your-face.

Half the units never see battle like the sea guard, spearmen, reavers and silver helms, which reeks of poor design.

These choices (such as Spearmen) simply don't work? Or other choices are too good to be ignored?

Bard Harlock
11-11-2009, 16:53
Just go High Elves. It seems to be the way you want to go. Or get a friend and some different Army Books and proxy a few 1000 point battles to see what you really like.

clearasil
11-11-2009, 17:07
I myself use High Elves and they're Not boring. I don't know about the atmosphere in your local gaming group, but I can use a very varied army list and still fare well. It just depends on attitude and the playstyle you have.

Plus, the High Elven range is filled with gorgeous models, and the mighty ol' Dragon ofcourse.

Empire on the other hand is alot more, you know, variable. You have Every unit type in warhammer, other than Skirmishers. Does the Empire have skirmishers? :D Anyways, you can atleast make any possible style of an army list, whether it's full-cav or gunline or what ever, they have it all.

They also have the option for full-plastic, which I like alot. Offers a huge amount of conversion possibilities.

I'd sure go with High Elves any day though ;)

The Red Scourge
11-11-2009, 17:08
They're like the Eternal Guard. A decent unit, but not worth it :)

Wolf 11x
11-11-2009, 17:16
They're like the Eternal Guard. A decent unit, but not worth it :)

Comparing anything Eternal Guard is a downright low blow.

danny-d-b
11-11-2009, 17:41
dwarfs?

meaty infantry- erm how much choise do you want, every unit is meaty infantry

shut out magic- you start with 4DD dice bacic and can easly add others

you don't have to go diffencive, I use to play an ofencive dwarf lord list (dwarf lord, BSB, runesmith big block of warriors, big block of longbeards 2x units of thunder/quarrlers hammers, 2 bolt thowers, small unit of miners and gyro and used to end up around the middle of the table by the end of the game

Wolf 11x
11-11-2009, 18:23
Dwarves are too static for my tastes.

I'm split between Empire & High Elves still. :p I don't think I've missed any other obvious options.

The Red Scourge
11-11-2009, 18:33
You've missed DoW.

A great looking army, if you're up for a challenge :)

willowdark
11-11-2009, 18:37
Dual Trebuchet Bretonnians.

Tarian
11-11-2009, 18:46
HE can field a varied list, especially if you're more worried about aesthetics/fluff than actual performance on the battlefield.

ASF is a shock to most people who haven't played it much, but people learn how to deal with it eventually.

That said, the most effective builds do indeed revolve around either Mages or a Star Dragon Lord.

HE have some of the most spectacular infantry in the game, though they do pay quite a bit for a low toughness, low armor model. Empire has the quantity, and quantity is a quality unto itself.

HE are more "in your face" whereas Empire can afford to sit back a bit and shoot.

Unit on unit, HE hit faster and harder, though Empire is cheaper with more durability.

Think of HE as a glass hammer. Very few of their units can afford to take a hit, but the majority of them are great at dishing it out.

As for the choices:

Sea Guard are amazing in their flexibility, but they pay a lot for it. In an army with an already small model count, they can't afford them usually.

Spearelves just don't hit hard enough and are too frail. They look good on paper, but tend to die in droves.

Reavers are expensive, and outclassed in their job by either Shadow Warriors or Eagles.

Silver Helms are solid cavalry, but are grossly outclassed by Dragon Princes, as Princes are a few more points, but vastly superiour in almost every way.

danny-d-b
11-11-2009, 21:04
Dwarves are too static for my tastes.


anvil and/or stollers rune?

warhawk95
11-11-2009, 21:19
HE could work, but you would mainly be dealing with elite infantry although all of them have their place in the army. And as for only having two builds, that is in a competitive environment. If your club isnt hardcore, infantry based HE will do alright. Dont expect to beat everyone and armies like DoC, DE, and possibly VC will destroy you if their lists are cheesed out, but you can compete against other lists that arent quiet as OTT.

I think empire would provide to be a good army, very different from WE. you get magic, warmachines, cheap troops that have SCR. Some good armour saves. They also have a variety of builds, empire horde (or TVI) isnt quiet as good as was in 6th but still not bad, all cav is possible, gunline, magic heavy, and then the ever so original pope mobile 2xST and some cannons, I have never seen this fielded and would love to see how well it does.

ChaosVC
12-11-2009, 03:00
Didn't you just say your friend is selling you HE cheaply? Go for it then.

The Red Scourge
12-11-2009, 08:05
Didn't you just say your friend is selling you HE cheaply? Go for it then.

Yup, you wonder why.. ;)

I do have a great example. We got a new player in our group, who couldn't decide whether to HE or WE, in the end he chose HE (cause he is a little munchkin, and the HE seemed more of powerplayers army), when later I got my woodies and started dancing around, pulling all kinds of neat tactical tricks, the magic of swordmasters kind of dwindled.

In the end, you should let the models decide :)

Lord Solar Plexus
12-11-2009, 14:43
Very good advice.

I'm a bit biased towards the Empire, although I must say that in a really competetive environment, it does not offer any more viable builds than HE. Everything else and they're a force with as much diversity as you could imagine - well, apart from "point-your-character-at-it-and-it-dies" playstyles.



Empire on the other hand is alot more, you know, variable. You have Every unit type in warhammer, other than Skirmishers. Does the Empire have skirmishers? :D

Yes, they do, and they're very useful! Otoh, they only have one chariot. Although that is very good, too.

The Red Scourge
12-11-2009, 15:54
- well, apart from "point-your-character-at-it-and-it-dies" playstyles.

Point the little wizard with the pointy hat and the speculum at the 'thirster and it dies ;)

Tarian
12-11-2009, 17:32
Point the little wizard with the pointy hat and the speculum at the 'thirster and it dies ;)

Or point the wizard at an Elf Lord and lose a point of Toughness. :D

Lord Solar Plexus
13-11-2009, 09:08
Point the little wizard with the pointy hat and the speculum at the 'thirster and it dies ;)

Ah, yes. Good point, Scourge. I would still say that this combo is the exception that proves the rule.

Jind_Singh
13-11-2009, 09:39
Ok, just saw this thread and I had to come in and give my two pennies worth....

EMPIRE

Why? Well theres lots of reasons, here we go......

1) Cost - It is simply MUCH cheaper to start an Empire army v's High Elves - I'd say almost 95% of what you want to use for an Empire Army is plastic - all their core (state troops, Knights, Milita troops), all their special is plastic (outriders, pistoliers, cannons, mortars), their rare is now also plastic (steam tank, flagellents).
You get plastic general on horse/on foot, 2 plastic wizards on foot.
The only metal minis are their characters which is excellent as much as I love plastic for my troops metal minis capture a certain flair.
High Elves on the other hand are the other way around - sure you get plastic archers/spears/Silver Helms/Lion charriot (coolest looking chariot in game)/Repeater Bolt Throwers, but the cool elements of the army are basically metal! At $18 for 3 models thats pricy!

2) Conversions: Now I like the idea of customizing my models but hate filing, pinning, etc, and I dont have the biggest bits box - end of story collecting Empire - you get so many bits, extras, that you can customize to your hearts content. And as your working with mainly plastic theres almost no limit to what you can do.
EG - I took the head of a White Wolf I really liked to make a mounted warrior priest. But I didnt like his top knot - less than 2 minutes later I shaved his head bold, donated some money to the local Sigmar temple, and bobs your uncle - I got a baldy head!
Too many cool things you can do with the Empire plastics.

3) Fashion - It is a widely held belief that the next starter set is Empire v's Orcs, and the set includes new Empire Knights - even if this rumor has only 40% of coming true its wicked! Your orc & gobbo player at the store - go ha'fs with him next summer and get 1/2 new models for your Empire in one foul swoop!

4) Variety - The spice of life, what would you like to build today? Lets take a fully mounted army shall we? Knights, pistolliers, Outriders, a Warrior Priest on a War Alter, hell lets even take a Steam Tank!
Or lets do what we did last week - at 2250 we outnumberd a pure Night Goblin player by 15% more models with the Infantary horde to end all hordes! It was crazy, you should have seen the look on his face!
Want a fluffy army? Pick a province and build your forces around them - you got 4 different lords to lead your army and each choice changes the dynamics of how your army plays out.
You have access to the most warmachines, cannon, mortar, hell blaster, rocket battery, Steam Tank - backed by crossbows, hand gunners, archers, pistoliers, outriders - you can have great missle troop options.
You have the cool detachment rule - though sometimes it doenst do much for you!

5) Painting - With just under a dozen provinces to chose from you can have fun all day picking and chosing a scheme for the army. And the nice thing is troops have to band together so many times across the history of the Empire that you'll often find hodge-podge armies!

6) THE FLUFF!! Backstory is a crucial part of this army - as otherwise without that you lose so much! Well I have read every single army book out there and without doubt the High Elves was by far the #1 yawn! It's no were as cool to read as the wood elves book - that kept me glued to the pages, it was chore to mash my way through those pages, and thats saying something as i'm a bit of a fanatic when it comes to reading anything in print - just see my book collection! :D
Empire reads well, theres also a great collection of books to support the series - The new uniforms book that came out in summer, the new series from black libary (Reiksgaurd, just an amazing read), and the legend of Sigmar is out, I think actually his 2nd book is out soon to. Gotrek and Felix books - lots of them set in the Empire, so more good reads there.

And thats about it - OH HOLD ON - you want a dragon, theres the imperial dragon for Karl Franz, though it is a tad bit expensive for points.

And last but not least - you'll never have enough Empire. You can collect, and collect, and you'll never end up with triples of everything as theres just so much to choose from!!

Thanks for listening!

Jind_Singh
13-11-2009, 09:45
OH! You want competive? We had a tournment at the store - 14 players - and we (me and my mate) took Empire. My 1st ever game EVER using Empire (I am a truly seasoned Deamons of Chaos player, Orcs & goblins), and my mate is hard core Empire.
The other armies there were....
3 Empire Players (inc me and my mate)
Deamons of Chaos
Vampire Counts
2 Dark Elves
2 Skaven players
Warriors of Chaos
Wood Elves
Dwarves
Ogre Kingdoms
Orcs & Goblins


#1 - Empire (3 massacres, my mate did great! He played the Dark Elf and destroyed his entire army - including the Hydra)
#2 Dark Elves
#3 Skaven
#3 Empire (I had 2 masacres v's DoC, Dwarves, but I got a draw with the Vampires count - whose been using his army in tourments for 3-4 years and does VERY well - though I did actually get 400 VP than him! :D

So not bad for Empire - they can be as competitive as you want them to be!

Lord Solar Plexus
13-11-2009, 11:01
end of story collecting Empire - you get so many bits, extras, that you can customize to your hearts content. ...
Too many cool things you can do with the Empire plastics.


Seconded and thirded. Those sprues are all really excellent, as are the plastic character kits, and if you are looking for even more variety, there is a host of ranges that you can get good-looking models (Pike and Shotte for example).

Putty
13-11-2009, 12:06
to the OP: start empire. they are the most versatile army in fantasy.

Wolf 11x
14-11-2009, 22:28
This is approximately what he owns.

Army Book
Dragon (partially assembled)
Various charcers on foot (some Mages, some Nobles)
Tiranoc Chariot
14 White Lions
16 Swordmasters
9 Handmaidens (was going to use a Phoenix Guard)
20 Archers
~40 Spear Elves
~10 Silver Helms (was going to use as Dragon Princes)
~5 Reavers
6 Shadow Warriors
2 Bolt Throwers

Asking price is $250. Note that they're older models.

Wolf 11x
16-11-2009, 14:51
Feedback anyone? :)

The Red Scourge
16-11-2009, 15:01
They're high elves.. :p

Wolf 11x
16-11-2009, 16:07
After looking more extensively, it appears that most of the models are current. I think the Spearmen, White Lions, Swordmasters, 2 of the Mages, the Nobles, Reavers, 8 of the Silver Helms, and Prince Imrik are all current models. Only the a few of the Shadow Warriors, half the Archers, Handmaidens, and the Chariot are outdated.

Oh and I forgot the BTs on the previous list. Updated it now.