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Warlord Seven
12-11-2009, 02:14
About a month ago i did make another thread about help for my first army, I was reccomended WE, due to what I thought I wanted. Lucky me I proxied some games and found out I wasnt overally fond of their you cant catch me playstyle. It wasnt too bad just I wanted to engage in some combat and fight. So I took alook at the minis again and decided that I liked several armies which good field solid ranked infantry.

I end up deciding that I liked the feel of Empire, DE, LM, and O&G. I looked at the models and was most impressed by DE and LM. Now I know these are considered two powerful armies, but I didnt plan on spamming engines or using a dragon and deathstar shades, ASF BG, or even the ring. After playing a couple games I really liked several blocks of infantry, with magic/shooting to back it up. To me DE and LM can do this. DE would be mainly spearmen, with magic RxB too back it up and support with BG, hydra, and CoK (similar to Joe Sturges list at GT 2008 from what I'm told), so thats a rough idea. LM would be Slann in his trusty TG, another unit of saurus (I hear they are good now), skinks to provide some shooting, and support well big ol Steggie will come to play and some scar vets, maybe Cold ones here too and razardons I hear are good too.

So I know it seems like I already know what I want, but I was just wondering which army would be more viable, I keep tossing back and forth between the two, love both model ranges and I think that both armies could play well. Any thoughts? Comments?

Thanks in advance!

ChaosVC
12-11-2009, 02:27
Both are relatively flexible and good armies and you have already playtested them. You like the gaming aspect. Now think which one you would most enjoy dolling up. IMO, DE looks great.

Ξ H2O Ξ
12-11-2009, 02:43
Seems you have looked into your options pretty well. Both armies can have solid lists without the need for "cheese".They both have nice model ranges, and plenty of plastic. But to tell the truth who wants to be a "neutral" army? Bad guys will eventually win the day, so I'd go for DE. Buth then the steggie is a nice beast, as is the hydra. Both can have cold ones, which are seriously sweet ponies.

Man i am awesome with helping decide,
H2O

Ad-Rock
12-11-2009, 04:00
Go Lizards! I just started them a few weeks back and they are great fun to use. Very versatile and balanced army list, with some great looking models (temple guard and carnosaurs in particular).

But then again, Dark Elves have some pretty sweet models...

Jind_Singh
12-11-2009, 04:06
just base it on what models take your fancy the most, also another factor I consider to be huge is wether the main models you want to use are from the plastics range - high elves for eg have a good selection of plastics but you dont use them! you end up with metal figs! so see what kind of army is best for u

J.P. Biff
12-11-2009, 06:36
For me it really comes down to the core choices and whether I want/could paint alot of them or not. Since they're going to be the base of your army and you're going to HAVE to paint at least 3 (well for your standard 2000pts game) ask yourself which you would want to paint the most.

DE's
-spearmen
-corsairs
-dark riders
-crossbowmen

Lizzies
-Skinks
-Saurus
-Kroxigors for Skink units (if you go the mixed unit route)

I have 3000pts of each painted up and have to say the DE's were way more interesting. I love the variety and look of their entire range.

Hope this helps :)

The Red Scourge
12-11-2009, 06:37
If you didn't like woodies, you should go for WoC :)

Warlord Seven
12-11-2009, 12:28
Alright thanks for the suggestions, I think another factor would be my lack of artistic ability (scale of 1-10 im a -4 on a good day). So any ideas on which would be easier to paint, that would still look good. Also I would like to get into doing conversions because I think they look really cool and would like to start doing that stuff, so if one army is easier/more options for conversions that would be good too.

Bard Harlock
12-11-2009, 14:26
I honestly feel like Lizards are easier to paint. Pick a skin color. Pick a scale color. Prime black, paint skin, paint scales, paint eyes and bony plates skull white, paint weapons metallic and black for obsinite, then use the dip method or a Citadel wash over the whole model, highlight if you want.

Of course, the Dark Elves only have slightly more steps, but if you are not comfortable drybrushing, I don't know that I would say go for it. Of course, learning to dry bursh is very important, I think, so no time like the present. I also think Dark Elves are more versatile than Lizardmen.

Dark Elves have more units from which to choose. They have monsters, better shooting phase, better initiative, hatred, fast cavalry, assassins, and a magic phase that is very competitive.

Lizardmen obviously shine in that their rank and file Saurus units are S4, T4, with Scaly Skin 5+, cold blooded, and two attacks each. The favored 6 front and 3 deep Saurus with spears unit is a formidable target to charge into for most opponents. Add to that when you get near them, skinks will be double-tapping poisoned blowpipes wounding on 6s.

I prefer Salamanders to Razordons because any unit that suffers even one casualty must make a panic test and even L9 has to fail sometimes. Plus, overshooting can lead to hitting other units already in combat, which is a nice bonus, when it isn't your unit.

As far as conversions go, your imagination is the only limit there. Dark Elves give some immediate and pretty obvious opportunities in that the Dark Rider (fast cav) models are metal and $12 each ($60 for the minimum unit size). A box of Wood Elf Glade Riders has 8 horses for $35 and a box of 16 Dark Elf Warriors is $35. So you get all the bits you need for 8 Dark Riders and an extra 8 warriors for ten dollars more then 5 of the standard model. If you went ahead and spent the $105 for two boxes of Glade Riders and a box of DE Warriors you'd have 16 Dark Riders, which should be enough for even very large armies.

For Lizards, the easiest conversion opportunities come from converting Temple Guard and regular Saurus into Scar Vets and Old Bloods. Many folks do this straight from the battalion box. With lizards, you could come close to a 1000 point force with only one battalion box, if you converted some heroes.

For $131.25 buying the battalion box and a Stegadon kit (these prices are all MSRP) you could have a very solid Lizardmen force with a skink chief, skink priest on Stegadon with EotG, a block of 18 Saurus, a twelve skink unit of skirmishers, a block of 10 Temple guard (not their best use by themselves, but it fills in points and you get to play!) and some Cold One cavalry. Add a Slann (I like Lord Kroak since you can field him as Kroak or a Slann Mage Priest) and a few more Temple Guard to that and you are getting close to 2000 points.

After that, you pick up some Terradons, Kroxigors, Salamanders or Razordons, maybe some chameleon skinks, another block of Saurus, another Cold One Cav unit, and boom, you're set.

I like to recommend two battalion boxes for people willing to convert. It gets you all of your Temple Guard, Cold One Cavalry, skinks, and two solid blocks of Saurus, which is enough for many games. The Stegadon box comes with 5 skink crew and both a skink priest and skink chief. This is easily enough models for 2000-2500 point games for less than $225 and it is all plastic! And once you throw in a Slann, some Salamanders and Kroxigors, well, you get to start picking and choosing for a 3000 point game.

Dark Elves, for me, are more expensive, mostly because the battalion box comes with corsairs, which I am not fond of and because of the fact that they simply have so many units and models to choose from!

Both are excellent armies, though, and I feel like it would be hard to go wrong with either choice. In the end, choose what suits you best and have fun!

Warlord Seven
13-11-2009, 17:56
Sorry bit of threadomancy, but I just have one question about LM. It seems like all the tournament I see are slann, EotG,Scar vet, skinks, terras, ancient. Is that the only competitive build out there? or do LM have other builds that they can use and be modertly succesful with.

Bard Harlock
13-11-2009, 19:53
There are other competitive lists out there for LM, especially depending upon your definition of "moderately successful" and individual tournament rules. If you can use characters, Chakax leading a unit of Temple Guard with a Slann in the unit is one heck of a deathstar.

LM have some of the strongest rank and file troops around and building an army around Saurus blocks can be a devastating army. I've seen the all blowpipe skink & stegadon army in action at my local game store and it is pretty amazing to see the rain of poisoned darts decimate the ranks before a Stegadon charges in to mop up.

I've seen some very well-balanced forces do well in tournaments and campaigns as well. I've also seen the very magic heavy and minimal magic forces (led by an Old Blood on a Carnosaur) do well.

Lizardmen are quite the versatile army, they just lack as many units as some other armies because they get the job done with double duty from certain units. Skinks for instance are your skirmishers and your light infantry. Lizardmen fliers are their fast cavalry as well. The only thing Lizardmen really lack is long range shooting units. Skinks' blowpipes have a 12" range. Personally, I don't mind since they are poisoned and fire twice!

Finally, I think Lizardmen allow a player to actually play differently from game to game and enemy to enemy with the same list. You can be aggressive and take the battle to the enemy, or you can play a more defensive game running screening skirmishers and funneling enemies into charging your nasty Saurus with spears while scouts and fliers take care of war machines or troublesome shooters.

This comes in real handy when there are scenarios with differing objectives. Need to take and defend a position? You have the tools to do it. Need to defend your half of the table while impassible terrain is behind you? You can do it. Need to split your army to take two enemy positions? Go for it! This is where the balanced force will really show its strengths for all comers and all situations.

Warlord Seven
13-11-2009, 21:24
Ah ok so even though all the lists look the same or only have one or two differences model wise, they actually play completely different, thank you that was very helpful. And is the Old blood on the carnosaur good, because I love the model and that would be enough to field it alone, but if hes a good choice thats even better. And "moderately successful" was poor word choice, I should have said able to compete with other armies that arent cheesy.

Bard Harlock
13-11-2009, 21:33
Lizardmen are at the top of the 2nd tier in my and many other peoples' opinions. That means they are not 1st tier cheesy like DoC, VC and certain DE builds. They can fight against them, if necessary, and be competitive while doing it. Against other armies in the second and third tiers, Lizardmen do quite well with an all-comers build.

As for the Old Blood on Carnosaur, yes it makes a great choice in a stompy, less magic list. A couple of skink priests carrying dispel scrolls and doing some magic, or riding a Steg with EotG can make a decent shut down for your opponents magic phase and fit the dinosaur stampede theme led by an Old Blood on Carnosaur quite well!