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Kayosiv
12-11-2009, 03:59
I'm kinda confused how to deal with the doomwheel to be honest.

Spells can't hurt it, as most of them are strength 4 and it is toughness 6.

Troops can't hurt it.

Elite troops can hurt it but most strength 5 or 6 troops cannot handle strength 6 autohits.

Calvalry can't hurt it because they will lose 2-3 models when even trying to get near it.

Monsters can't hurt it because they will auto die to warp lightning.

Shooting can't hurt it because again, it is toughness 6 and virtually all ranged attacks are strength 3 or 4.



What exactly am I supposed to do if I don't have cannons and my opponent puts down a doomwheel?

The doomwheel seems like an autowin against small elite armies like high elves or Ogre Kingdoms, or armies without many war machines like Vampire counts and Lizardmen.

What am I missing here? Please help, as I have a friend who just called me and informed me that he is putting the finishing touches on his doomwheel!;)

minionboy
12-11-2009, 06:10
Putting a wound on it with a bolt thrower (High Elves), or even just punching it in the face with some Man Eaters (Ogres), could definitely do some hurt.

The 3 shots per turn with warp lightning is enough to put a couple wounds on something tough, just before the something tough pounds on the wheel. Honestly, it's not that bad to fight against... esp. compared to the stank.

Toads77
12-11-2009, 06:58
I can see how this thing can be a real pain in the ass, you can move it anywhere within 3D6 so it will never be out of position, so cavalry won't be able to charge it ever, which are the only thing that can stand up to it in combat. It just waits till it rolls a high amount then charge whatever it wants and nothing will be able to take the impact hits, grinds attacks,and 2D6 attacks.

It's half the cost of a steam tank and can potentially fire up to 3 'cannonballs' a turn.

I thought it might be balanced somewhat if it had 3 chances to misfire (like the hellblaster) if it shot its warplighting, but now that it only rolls once for the strength it looks like it will rank up there with the hydra.

Avian
12-11-2009, 07:09
If you have a nasty unit wanting to take it on without getting shot, one solution is to make sure you have a sacrificial unit that would be a closer target for the lightning.


And enough S3 and S4 attacks can put a hurting on it, they just require 6s to wound.

fubukii
12-11-2009, 07:20
Ok i have been using 2 doomwheels since i have gotten my copy of the book and my suggestion is: Lay down and get ran over!!!!!!!!!! :) :) :) :) j/k

id suggest:

Cannons
Bolt throwers
or trying to engage it with mulitple units.
Buboes.

Lets be honest you can try to keep a sacrificial unit near it but come his turn he will move and pick what he wants to be close too and unload on it.

Vermin-thing
12-11-2009, 07:29
EotG possibly? d6 hits with no saves would wreak it.

TroyJPerez
12-11-2009, 07:43
Has nobody thought of the obvious way to destroy it? A unit of 3 Dragon ogres who gain an extra attack when they get hit with lightening, all armed with greatweapons. Lets see the stupid wheel take 12 strength 7 hits, lol.

Vsurma
12-11-2009, 07:48
The engine does d6 S4! hits so still needs 6s to wound, add to this that you REALLY don't want an engine near one of those things as it will very easily die to the shooting attack.

Not the best choice.

What is the ld on that thing?

Blade of realities might do it in though catching it will be tough, the old one on cold one might have a better shot than one riding a carnosaur as it is safe from the doomwheels shooting while in the unit.

wamphyri101
12-11-2009, 07:55
Shoot it and hope it rolls a 1 and crashes into something

charge it with Chariots (If you can get past the Terror thing)

White Lion/Knights with Str 5/6

Just keep Giants away from it. Got Hit by a str 2 blast yesturday. He rolled a 6 to wound and then it turned into 4 wounds....

Althwen
12-11-2009, 08:06
At the risk of sounding stupid: What do you mean it can't be hurt by shooting and magic due to its toughness 6... that's still 6's to wound. Now I don't own a copy of the Skaven book or know all the rules involved, but if you throw enough at it, it'll surely die won't it?

What army does the OP play, anyway? Since a lot of armies I know actually do have stuff to counter this thing with.

Again, I don't know all of its rules, but as suggested earlier:
Bolt throwers, high str. magic, dragons, Dark Elf assassins with throwing star+poison (it works on chariots, why not on a doomwheel?)...just to name a few.

Count Zero
12-11-2009, 08:42
is it immune to poison?

PaddyF
12-11-2009, 08:52
If it were me I would raise a couple of units of zombies, Van Hel them into it and Nahek them up a bit and go kill other stuff while it is tar pitted in place vOv

lt-enigma
12-11-2009, 08:55
I haven't played against one personally, but does it still abide by normal monster line of sight?
If it does then what happened to flanking the damn thing?
It still has to comply to the rules for LOS when shooting its warp lightning.
When in combat i'd suggest something simple like heavy cav (chaos knights etc) to the flank or killing everything else in the army.
Also dropping a rock on it from a long sistance away is a very good idea.

N1AK
12-11-2009, 09:22
It still has to comply to the rules for LOS when shooting its warp lightning.


From the wording of its rules I'm very certain LOS isn't required, it is simply fired at the nearest unit friend of foe.

The doomwheel is very good, especially for its points cost. Generally, the things it is best at attacking are those that could hurt it (Knights, Monsters etc) so I'd generally suggest that you don't just send a Stank after it or some such.

A lot of the time, the best way to deal with it will be to try and deny it shots at your better units, tarpit it with cheap troops etc. Each time it shoots it risks damage, if it is shooting at a Giant it's well worth it, if you've stuck a unit of warhounds near it who cares!

At the moment, one of the biggest issues depends on how the Skaven players chooses to move it. By RAW it appears to be able to move freely up to the distance rolled (making it possible to move around the side of a unit and enter combat in the flank or rear). Personally (and the people I have spoken to) feel the rules were written on the basis that it moved in a straight line but cocked up (why would you ever go into your own unit if you can freely wheel as you move!?).

If the Skaven player plays straight lines only then it becomes slightly easier to control, if it can move freely then your up the creek.

Warsmith Tharak
12-11-2009, 10:13
Ogers= leadbealchers, maneaters, ironguts and Hunter. The doomwheel is a large target so 4 leadbealchers and a hunter should put a dent in it. 3D6" movment is on avrage 10" so it is not imposible to get the charge, and if I remember right you will hit on 3+ and wound on 4+ giving it no save.

High elves= Curse of arrow atraction(sp) + long bow and RBT. On long range you hit on 3+, on short range 2+. With re-roll to hit it will go down. I would shoot with singel bolt, but it might be wrong according to mathhammer.

Dark elves= repeter crossbow, reaper bolt trower and shades. Weaking it with shooting and charge it in the flank with shades. The shades shoud hide in a forest, but will most likely lose some of its number to lightning.

Warriors of Chaos= dragon ogres... Nuff said.

Empire/dwarfs= Cannons

Lizardmen= Poisen blowpipe and scar veteran with steed of shadows and great weapon.

orcs and goblins= Warmachines. Any warmachines. 2-3 hits and the doomwheel is dead.

Vampire counts= Banshee howl, gaze of nagash, tarpit it with zombies, flank it with ghuls.

Tomb kings= Screaming skull catapult, Poisenus arrows if you use kalidha(sp)

Beast of chaos= Dragon ogres...

Daemons of chaos= Umm... Almost everything???

Brettonia= Knights and treebukcet.

Wood elves= Lots of shooting. Good BS, armour pircing and large target works wonders.

Did I forget a rase or two? Anyway, all have something from warmachines to masses of low strenght shooting, dragon ogres to good taktiks. Sometimes it will charge 18" and other times you are able to pull somthing out of your rear end.
Does it count it as a chariot? If so, str 7 all the way...
¤looks up¤, No the sky hasent fallen down yet;)

minionboy
12-11-2009, 10:20
I think I have to second that Dragon Ogres are cruelly effective against them... Not affected by the mandatory shots, actually, it only makes the Dragon Ogres more angry!

Every army has something to use against it. Off the top of my head:
******EDIT: beat to the big fat list******

But I will add:
Giants in any army that can get them will thump the wheel hard. Also, Stegadons and Kroxigor in LM can wound easily.

In summary, anything that can both hit hard and shrug off 2D6 str 2 hits will do the trick. The 3 shots of lightning is somewhat intimidating to charge a lone creature into, but the Doom Wheel has a low unit strength and only D3 impact hits if it doesn't charge, the str 2 hits are negligible against most units you'd send after the wheel anyhow.

selone
12-11-2009, 11:11
Dragon ogres are hilarous. Failing that sticking warhounds in front of chaos knights works well. You just never know when the doomwheel will roll poorly and you can catch it. Remember on average the doomwheel is moving 10-11 so it shouldn't be beyond reason to catch it with a unit of cavalry if ti comes after you.

Also remember that the doomwheel isn't stubborn or unbreakable so if you can beat it in combat its likely going to wheel off.

Alathir
12-11-2009, 12:17
With my High Elves, I plan to pepper it with single bolts (one of the very few times the single bolt option is better than the multi shot) and failing that just throw Phoenix Guard at it, they will easily take the charge from it no problem at all and will beat it on combat resolution. Archmage with Pit of Shades is also an option...

I am not too worried about the Doomwheel with my High Elves to be honest.

Just remembered then, the Reaver Bow is a very nice option against it. Hits on 2's most of the time, wounds on 5's and it will have a 6+ save, combine that with bolt throwers and you should have a very dead wheel soon enough. Also, don't forget for each wound you cause on an unengaged Doomwheel it has to roll a D6 for each wound at the end of any phase, for each die that comes up 1 it has to roll on the Misfire chart. So if you can really hammer it one phase, it should start to screw up.

And as much as I hate to suggest it, a Prince on a Star Dragon with the Star Lance should pretty much destroy this thing on the charge, use the Talisman of Loec if your that worried. 10 Weapon skill 7 attacks that hit on 3's and wound on 3's - nasty business.

jmcg1989
12-11-2009, 12:50
with VC i would tarpit it with something i can easily raise then get an ethereal unit into combat with it
a unit of wraiths will easily take it to pieces with their great weapons as the doomwheeel doesnt have any magic attacks in combat (as far as i remember)

PaddyF
12-11-2009, 12:52
Why bother with the Wraiths? Just kill it with CR

Unless I have missed something about it?

fubukii
12-11-2009, 13:38
Ogers= leadbealchers, maneaters, ironguts and Hunter. The doomwheel is a large target so 4 leadbealchers and a hunter should put a dent in it. 3D6" movment is on avrage 10" so it is not imposible to get the charge, and if I remember right you will hit on 3+ and wound on 4+ giving it no save.

High elves= Curse of arrow atraction(sp) + long bow and RBT. On long range you hit on 3+, on short range 2+. With re-roll to hit it will go down. I would shoot with singel bolt, but it might be wrong according to mathhammer.

Dark elves= repeter crossbow, reaper bolt trower and shades. Weaking it with shooting and charge it in the flank with shades. The shades shoud hide in a forest, but will most likely lose some of its number to lightning.

Warriors of Chaos= dragon ogres... Nuff said.

Empire/dwarfs= Cannons

Lizardmen= Poisen blowpipe and scar veteran with steed of shadows and great weapon.

orcs and goblins= Warmachines. Any warmachines. 2-3 hits and the doomwheel is dead.

Vampire counts= Banshee howl, gaze of nagash, tarpit it with zombies, flank it with ghuls.

Tomb kings= Screaming skull catapult, Poisenus arrows if you use kalidha(sp)

Beast of chaos= Dragon ogres...

Daemons of chaos= Umm... Almost everything???

Brettonia= Knights and treebukcet.

Wood elves= Lots of shooting. Good BS, armour pircing and large target works wonders.

Did I forget a rase or two? Anyway, all have something from warmachines to masses of low strenght shooting, dragon ogres to good taktiks. Sometimes it will charge 18" and other times you are able to pull somthing out of your rear end.
Does it count it as a chariot? If so, str 7 all the way...
¤looks up¤, No the sky hasent fallen down yet;)


Dragon ogres and shaggoths obviosly are very good vs the thing in a 1v1 type setting. if the doomheel charges with support or flanks it has a good shot at killing the ogres.

Wood elves - str 3 bows arent gonna do much your best bet is to harass it wit multiple units of dryads.

Dark elves - rbt will do the trick not so much on the shades though, the doomwheel on average charges further then your shades do an they willget murdered by its impact hits.

ogres, the irgon guts should run up and do about 2 wounds, not counting the storm banner then probably die next turn.

LM - scar vet would do well, or any saurus block assuming you can get through the whole skaven army.

VC - zombie tarpits do the trick, wraiths are a bit iffy vs it, the lightning will zap down about 3 wraiths a turn..... if you have a large unit go for it, but be ready to lose some.

DOC - actually most units in the daemons of chaos book are not good vs the doomwheel. FLesh hounds and flamers die very fast and all of thier lords/heroes have to worry about them as well. Best bet is magic spells like flickering fire or bolt of change. or single wound daemonic models.

brets - A smart skaven player isnt letting you charge his doomwheel with knights, the trebs can work well though. Generally unless you have warmachines you are gonna have to dedicate alot of points to kill this one doomwheel, and hope he doesnt use the other parts of his army to negate that.

captainsebastian
12-11-2009, 13:56
The doomwheel seems like an autowin against small elite armies like high elves or Ogre Kingdoms, or armies without many war machines like Vampire counts and Lizardmen.

I would have to disagree with the High Elf Bit. 1 Dedicated Bolt Thrower can put on the hurt. The fact that it is a large target really helps. The rest of the high elf army destroy everything else (except maybe that Hellpit...more and more magic for High Elves lately). I played a 1000point game and the reason why lost to it was not running away fast enough and my 1 rolled 4 1's to hit and when I did hit I rolled a 1 to wound.

A White Lion Chariot could put the hurt on it (and itself when it receives d3 str 6 hits).

The problem is when the doomwheel gets to your lines there isn't a whole lot you can do after that (especially since it moves like a spawn).

Arguleon-veq
12-11-2009, 13:59
Its not going to be easy for him to blast your elite units when y ou have a few throw away units knocking about, then if the Wheel really wantst to blast our elite units, he is going to have to get prett close and risk getting charged. It only moves on average of 10-11 a turn. Plus the Lightning isnt autokill vs things, you could very easily roll S4 or S2 on it rather than the average of S6.

Zoolander
12-11-2009, 14:13
The DW isn't unbreakable. I've seen it roll poorly on it's move only to get charged by Empire Greatswords, lose combat due to CR, and run away into a unit of Clanrats. CR is your friend!

Every army has access to at least one unit that can bring on the hurt to a DW. It isn't a steamtank or anything!

fubukii
12-11-2009, 15:54
zoolander shhhhhh the mental game is half the battle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

we must make them manthings think it is a steam tank :D

Count Zero
12-11-2009, 16:18
Doomwheel = good source of tooth picks for a hungry hydra.

wena
12-11-2009, 16:25
You all seem to forget the Storm Banner (-2) to shooting and no flying everyturn. And the abomination that is also running into your lines... plus the spell that give and additional -1 to the shooting...

The combo of the three (or four) are very difficult to match up against... do I shoot at the doom wheel (missing half my shots) and get slaughtered by the abomination or do I stop the abomination and let the doom wheel run over me... I hate those kind of decisions... wish my dragon could fly ... oops eagles only move 1" that sucks...

Even worse is when the doom wheel misfires and gets an additional d6 to it's movement... or you kill the abomination and it gets right back up with most of it's wounds...

Obviously, I am a little frustraded with skaven right now... 3 losses and no idea where to go now to beat them...

Havock
12-11-2009, 16:37
Use flaming attacks on the abomination: One wound will suffice. What do you play?

therat
12-11-2009, 16:42
You all seem to forget the Storm Banner (-2) to shooting and no flying everyturn. And the abomination that is also running into your lines... plus the spell that give and additional -1 to the shooting...

The combo of the three (or four) are very difficult to match up against... do I shoot at the doom wheel (missing half my shots) and get slaughtered by the abomination or do I stop the abomination and let the doom wheel run over me... I hate those kind of decisions... wish my dragon could fly ... oops eagles only move 1" that sucks...

Even worse is when the doom wheel misfires and gets an additional d6 to it's movement... or you kill the abomination and it gets right back up with most of it's wounds...

Obviously, I am a little frustraded with skaven right now... 3 losses and no idea where to go now to beat them...

It is all true!

I'm afraid none of your strategies will work against the doomwheel. It is invincible. When you see it take the field, despair and run away! Lay down your arms and surrender to the inevitable!

wena
12-11-2009, 16:50
That's how I feel :) by the way - I play high elves...

wena
12-11-2009, 16:52
Use flaming attacks on the abomination: One wound will suffice. What do you play?

Are you saying that one flaming wound removes all of it's special regeneration rules or just the last one? Or am I misunderstanding (I haven't read all of the special rules for the abomination)...

Havock
12-11-2009, 17:22
It won't come back.

Emissary
12-11-2009, 17:26
Are you saying that one flaming wound removes all of it's special regeneration rules or just the last one? Or am I misunderstanding (I haven't read all of the special rules for the abomination)...
In prior editions, one flaming wound removed regeneration from a model for all wounds. Now you just don't get the regeneration against flaming wounds, but will get it against later non-flaming wounds.

Havock
12-11-2009, 17:38
Yes, but any wound inflicted by a flaming attack will prevent it from getting back (special rule that the thing goes on and on and on...)

ScreamingDoombull
12-11-2009, 19:38
I had the privelege of playing against my friend's new skaven list a couple days ago. In addition to an obscene amount of troops, he also brought 2 doomwheels to the fight. Using vampire counts, I found they weren't nearly as devastating as everyone plays them out to be. I used a small unit of ghouls to redirect the first doomwheel across my front. With his overrun move, he ended up sitting with a flank exposed right infront of my vampire lord in a unit of skellies. During my turn, I flank charged. He did a couple impact hits but not nearly enough to outweigh my static combat rez. Being base Ld 7, he quickly fled and found himself back behind the skaven lines, where he couldn't cause trouble. The second doomwheel was countered by my banshee. Don't engage it in h2h, the lightning will hurt etherals! Instead, scream at it from behind another unit or hit it with a tarpit and scream from out of combat. It's Ld7, once again, and the wail should put a couple wounds on it a turn.

For other lists, use a small unit to redirect it then charge it with static CR. It can't fire on your turn and it can't generate enough kills to outweigh the static 5 CR you'll have. (6 if you manage a flank charge)
The skaven's real threat is their magic. That hurt alot more than the Doomwheels.

PeG
12-11-2009, 20:19
static CR seems to be a good option.

High S knights should also do fine. OK, it moves 3D6 inches but he wants to be close to you rather than close to his own units. If he hides in the back leave him alone to fry some rats.

Magic or high S shooting (cannons, boltthrowers etc) should also kill it

As for daemons not being able to take it out I have a hard time seeing the problem. If you charge a number of your units should be able to do severe damage. Unless you kill it you will suffer D3 grinding hits + 3 warplightning hits at S2-10, against that you have your T and 5+ ward. OK you might not walk over as with some other units but I dont see daemons having major problems with it. Especially not with flamers dealing with the abdomination.

Kuroi
12-11-2009, 23:05
Can the doomwheel stand&shoot? ^^

Agnar the Howler
13-11-2009, 00:06
Can the doomwheel stand&shoot? ^^

I don't have the army book but having played against one i'd say no.

Einholt
13-11-2009, 00:50
Yes, but any wound inflicted by a flaming attack will prevent it from getting back (special rule that the thing goes on and on and on...)

How is scratching it and taking of 1/6th of its wound taking care of it then???

Sygerrik
13-11-2009, 03:11
How is scratching it and taking of 1/6th of its wound taking care of it then???

Well, the fact that the vast majority of flaming attacks 1) are S4 2) come in whopping huge batches (fiery blast, flamer shots) means you likely won't be taking off one wound-- you'll be doing 2-3. Dwarven war machines are going to ruin its day.

On to the doomwheel-- the key thing is to engage it with 1-wound infantry with T4 or a decent armor save (or both). If you can soak up its charge, you're almost guaranteed to break it on your turn; even if you don't do a wound to it, it'll have to be inordinately lucky to lose by less than 2-3, testing on Ld 4-5. Remember that it only shoots on its turn. The key to the damn thing is not letting it pick its targets. It's going to be much better against some armies than others; Throgg armies, Ogres, Bretonnians and other armies with multiwound troops or small, heavily-armored units are going to be sweating bullets.

Dranthar
13-11-2009, 04:11
Is the doom wheel a large target?

I figure with a goblin army, I'd just shoot it with artillery and with a bit of luck, let the fanatics finish the sucker off if I can get past the terror test.

squigs of all varieties might also help.

Unwise
13-11-2009, 04:15
Even cheap infantry should be able to hold against the doomwheel with a general and/or standard nearby. It is just not all that destructive.

Complaining that it will flank you is redundant, as you are just as dead if you are flanked by fast cav or any other US5 thing anyway.

What does make it a real pain, is that it will be deployed on a flank, which is where you want to put your fast cav and some monsters etc. It is great at destroying the sort of things that people generally put on their flank.

As has been mentioned, if you do want your cavalry, monsters or chariots to kill it (which they do very well), just remember to have something else nearby to sacrifice to the warplightning.

In short, any infantry with decent LD are a great way to beat it, but it does really bite having to get infantry into position on a flank.

P.S. On a quick mathhammer, it seems to kill 6 T3 no AS guys on a charge. That means even against goblins or slaves it is only winning by 1 CR. Really should be able to hold after that. Getting it to assault you head on is the issue.

wolf40k
13-11-2009, 04:45
I think that its a very random model, It can do extremely well, or very bad.

I don't know the rules for it yet but combat res is probably the best bet for non elite armies and as for elite armies,
You need to take the risk of charging it with multiple units,
and it's variable movement rate can mean that it might be chargeable on the fist turn or take forever to get were it wants to go.

And as said before, war machines and poison are always good.

Kayosiv
13-11-2009, 05:22
If you have a nasty unit wanting to take it on without getting shot, one solution is to make sure you have a sacrificial unit that would be a closer target for the lightning.


This is the best advice in the whole thread imo. Since it can't pick targets, it just shoots whatever is closest, that is definitely an exploitable weakness.

Thank you for all the other advice.

wena
13-11-2009, 05:29
The funny thing here is everyone talks about dealing with the doom wheel as if it is alone - what about:

Abomination, Doom Wheel and Storm Banner

Oh yea, let's shoot it - sure - oh wait - I'm -2 to all shooting - cannons, ya that will work, oh wait, I need a +4 to be able to shoot my cannons (mind you the Doom Wheel can still shoot)

I'm going to attack it in close combat with my flying wonder beast (thirster, dragon, whatever) oh wait, I can't fly - and if I get close it will shoot me - hard

ok - I'm in close combat - oh wait - the abomination is around the corner and destroying whatever I'm trying to attack it with...

Yes, it is possible to beat, but nothing I have seen really inspires me with confidence... (I haven't even mentioned the bell or 1 level 4 and 2 other wizards or plague beares - oh my :D )

yes I will still play them and hopefully next game beat them... but it will be a challenge much harder than I have seen the responses above realize

My opinion after playing them 3 times this last week...

Avian
13-11-2009, 07:49
Well, the Storm Banner should hopefully only hamper one of your shooting phases and in any case doesn't stop magic and doesn't prevent you from placing cheap throwaway units close to the wheel. The Abomination is 'orrible and if facing both, I'd be shooting / zapping that and hoping my M7 guys will be able to out-charge the Doomwheel.

General Squeek Squeek
13-11-2009, 08:08
The funny thing here is everyone talks about dealing with the doom wheel as if it is alone - what about:

Abomination, Doom Wheel and Storm Banner

Oh yea, let's shoot it - sure - oh wait - I'm -2 to all shooting - cannons, ya that will work, oh wait, I need a +4 to be able to shoot my cannons (mind you the Doom Wheel can still shoot)

I'm going to attack it in close combat with my flying wonder beast (thirster, dragon, whatever) oh wait, I can't fly - and if I get close it will shoot me - hard

ok - I'm in close combat - oh wait - the abomination is around the corner and destroying whatever I'm trying to attack it with...

Yes, it is possible to beat, but nothing I have seen really inspires me with confidence... (I haven't even mentioned the bell or 1 level 4 and 2 other wizards or plague beares - oh my :D )

yes I will still play them and hopefully next game beat them... but it will be a challenge much harder than I have seen the responses above realize

My opinion after playing them 3 times this last week...

edit: Darn, a good portion of my post was ninjad by Avian

These units are good, but they are hardly the problem you seem to be making them out to be. Yes your opponent has found a good synergy in his army against yours. Of course he has taken the weakness's in those inherent units and minimized them, but you still have a many options left.

First is magic, the storm banner won't stop magic from frying him, and yes it will take a bit of it to down either DW or the Abomination, but the same is true with any armies big beasties. 2 dragons, 2 hydras, or 2 Greater daemons
all cause the same problem, and there movement isn't subject to random movement which can really hurt your opponent.

The second is isolating it and using combat res against it. the DW will fall to this if it doesnt get help. The storm banner will probably only hurt 1 maybe 2 at most phases of shooting so you'll still have time to use it. Cannons could be used to great effect for this purpose. if he uses the banner turn 1 by turn 3 you shooting should be fine to smash him. Yes theres a chance with its random move to make it to your line, but if it rolls that well it'd be all alone and easy pickings for block infantry. And if it rolls poorly you'll get your shots.

from what I've seen (granted only 2 games) the DW's biggest enemy is itself. It needs support to break blocks, but its random move means that it isn't always reliable. You can't screen it properly unless your fond of it repeatedly hitting your own guys with WL and having it run into the back of slaves. So it has to be on a flank or leading the way, and each instance it will likely be on its own.

That is what I have noticed so far with it.

Cragspyder
13-11-2009, 13:19
Is it Immune to Psychology? Can you make it take some panic checks and flee through its own units?

Burning Head wounds on a 6+ of course, as do most other auto panic check options I believe :(

Imbuto
13-11-2009, 13:34
I have a question: do the DW needs to roll to hit? Cause in the Armybook there's nothing about it...!

IT: yes, CR is ur best friend, cause you cannot know when the doomwheel will charge, so it's difficult to charge simultaneously with another unit... and having the enemy (guess) 3 ranks and outnumber, the doomwheel can lose and flee...

PeG
13-11-2009, 13:52
No I dont think it rolls to hit. If it did the problem would suddenly be a lot smaller.

In addition to what have been said before you dont necessarily need to kill the doomwheel first if you are having problems with said combo. It should be possible to get rid of the storm banner as well. If FAQed so that it doesnt restart it will hopefully run out which takes care of the problem otherwise you wil lhave to kill it. Either it is on a character in which case any sniping spell would do the trick or even a charge with something that is hard enough to kill the banner bearer. If on a regular standard bearer hit the unit he is in with some heavy magic and make them run. As soon as the stormbanner is gone things should get easier. If your opponent is hiding the unit with the storm banner behind something else it gets more complicated but depending on terrain, hills etc you might still be able to get to it.

piperider361
13-11-2009, 14:55
I ran two in my recent 5k game vs O&G. One was amazing - rolled 15 for first turn distance and blew up 2 chariots and a wyvern. The other one rolled 5 inches, misfired, ran off the board, came back next turn, got charged by goblines and fled of the table.

So yea, totally random. And if goblins can kill it combat, so can anyone else.

Nathangonmad
13-11-2009, 15:04
With vampires I just banshee screamed at it, its got a dire leadership.

Sygerrik
13-11-2009, 17:03
edit: Darn, a good portion of my post was ninjad by Avian

These units are good, but they are hardly the problem you seem to be making them out to be. Yes your opponent has found a good synergy in his army against yours. Of course he has taken the weakness's in those inherent units and minimized them, but you still have a many options left.

First is magic, the storm banner won't stop magic from frying him, and yes it will take a bit of it to down either DW or the Abomination, but the same is true with any armies big beasties. 2 dragons, 2 hydras, or 2 Greater daemons
all cause the same problem, and there movement isn't subject to random movement which can really hurt your opponent.

The second is isolating it and using combat res against it. the DW will fall to this if it doesnt get help. The storm banner will probably only hurt 1 maybe 2 at most phases of shooting so you'll still have time to use it. Cannons could be used to great effect for this purpose. if he uses the banner turn 1 by turn 3 you shooting should be fine to smash him. Yes theres a chance with its random move to make it to your line, but if it rolls that well it'd be all alone and easy pickings for block infantry. And if it rolls poorly you'll get your shots.

from what I've seen (granted only 2 games) the DW's biggest enemy is itself. It needs support to break blocks, but its random move means that it isn't always reliable. You can't screen it properly unless your fond of it repeatedly hitting your own guys with WL and having it run into the back of slaves. So it has to be on a flank or leading the way, and each instance it will likely be on its own.

That is what I have noticed so far with it.

An excellent point. A Doomwheel on its own is an annoyance, not a threat. A Doomwheel backing up a unit is a nightmare to deal with. The problem, then, is that the Doomwheel poses as much of a danger to nearby friends as nearby foes (especially if it goes OOC) and its random movement means it has a hard time staying close to friendly units.

Tenken
13-11-2009, 17:40
It shoots like a cannon right? Put a unit of skirmishers close to it fanned out. Good job killing that 1 skink.:p

PeG
13-11-2009, 17:59
Actually one of the major issues with the doomwheel is its movement that needs a FAQ. Since it moves like a chariot and charges whatever it hits nothing is preventing it from moving less than the roll since it can move, pivot, move back, pivot etc until it has used its movement. Also if rolling high it can start in front of a unit and hit the back of the same unit despite not seeing it since it is doesnt have to declare charges.

Following the current rule it can stay close to its own unit without major problems except for the fact that it will zap three rats / turn. It needs a FAQ to either limit the number of pivots or to have it follow normal charging rules.

Cain-asmodeus
14-11-2009, 04:13
From what I can attain, the doomwheel would be easy for my Dragon Ogres to simply walts up, say hello, and bash it to death with gw's, including my shaggoth who quarterbacks them. i beleive it would be a speed bump on the way to his flank, and for me to pick a nice juicy target to obliterate :evilgrin:

Oh im also wonderin :evilgrin: How would my War Mammoth fair against either the so feared creature "abomination , or the long awaited Doomwheel?

Also the Skaven army has more surprizes than the simple doomwheel, id keep good watch on those warpstone fanatics, i bet they have more stuff to dangle in front of me Khornate sellmates lol :eyebrows:

Enrico
14-11-2009, 08:00
What kind of Chaos army do you play that has more deployments than a Skaven army?

In my army, I have my 2 rat swarms, my 2 rat swarms, my 2 rat swarms, my 20 slaves, my 20 slaves, my 20 slaves, my 20 slaves before I even start deploying. That's 7 deployments for about 300 points. Are your Dragon Ogres on the board yet? Because I am sure that if I wanted, I could make it so my Doomwheel isn't deployed anywhere near them. They can fight my Abomination after the Jezzails punch some holes in them.
Or I can intentionally Frenzy them with the Doomwheel or Warlock Engineer, and make them chase slaves for 5 turns while I smash the rest of your army.

Either or. Depending on my whim and how I want to beat you that day. ;)

wena
14-11-2009, 15:05
What kind of Chaos army do you play that has more deployments than a Skaven army?

In my army, I have my 2 rat swarms, my 2 rat swarms, my 2 rat swarms, my 20 slaves, my 20 slaves, my 20 slaves, my 20 slaves before I even start deploying. That's 7 deployments for about 300 points. Are your Dragon Ogres on the board yet? Because I am sure that if I wanted, I could make it so my Doomwheel isn't deployed anywhere near them. They can fight my Abomination after the Jezzails punch some holes in them.
Or I can intentionally Frenzy them with the Doomwheel or Warlock Engineer, and make them chase slaves for 5 turns while I smash the rest of your army.

Either or. Depending on my whim and how I want to beat you that day. ;)

Thus speak the rats... the year of the Rat has come...

Cain-asmodeus
14-11-2009, 17:51
As fun as it would seem, I do welcome any challenge :D

As noted, I weild over 7000pts worth of Chaos models over the years, and managed to make quite an impact with them. I generally theme my army mostly over Khorne , I have a vanguard of fast moving calvary units, and an army consisting of pure infantry and auxillary forces, but this is neither the point.

I beleive it would be awesome to play the new skaven list, whether it be with my vanguard army list or the legion of infantry.

The question im trully wondering is how would a doomwheel fair against a Warmammoth, soon ill be able to feild the creature, and was pondering the idea and how if would make an impact? :eek:

Enrico
14-11-2009, 18:45
As fun as it would seem, I do welcome any challenge I love your attitude. I feel the same way.

The War Mammoth would be in real danger from the Lightning hits. The Doomwheel could probably manoeuvre to avoid the Mammoth while continuing to blast it with lightning.

A lot of it would depend on how much pressure you could put on the Skaven player with the other elements of the rest of your army.

The Skaven player could get 4 Doomwheels for the cost of a single Mammoth though...

JonnyTHM
14-11-2009, 18:51
Actually one of the major issues with the doomwheel is its movement that needs a FAQ. Since it moves like a chariot and charges whatever it hits nothing is preventing it from moving less than the roll since it can move, pivot, move back, pivot etc until it has used its movement. Also if rolling high it can start in front of a unit and hit the back of the same unit despite not seeing it since it is doesnt have to declare charges.

Following the current rule it can stay close to its own unit without major problems except for the fact that it will zap three rats / turn. It needs a FAQ to either limit the number of pivots or to have it follow normal charging rules.
From the Feb 2009 FAQ of the BRB

Q. Does a unit that moves via compulsory
movement have to obey the normal charging
conventions regarding Front/Flank/Rear? Or may
such a unit (e.g. Chaos Spawn) hit a side of an
enemy unit different from the one where they
began their move?
A. They must obey the normal rules, and so if they
would hit a side of the enemy that they cannot
charge, they must stop 1" away from the enemy.


As the doomwheel rules refer to what it does as charging, this should be a definitive 'no' to rear charges.

Cain-asmodeus
15-11-2009, 18:48
so.... a skaven player can bring two doomwheels for one rare choice?

I dont have access to a current Skaven book, id been wondering if this was true?

....the Warmammoth is two Rare choices, ...for now i think, for i was wondering about the comparison ?

4 doomwheels / per 1 warmammoth :confused:

AtmaTheWanderer
15-11-2009, 20:38
so.... a skaven player can bring two doomwheels for one rare choice?

No. It is just generally assumed by most people who are established in the hobby that you will be playing at least a 2000 point game during theoryhammer and mathhammer sessions.

Enrico
15-11-2009, 20:48
so.... a skaven player can bring two doomwheels for one rare choice?

I dont have access to a current Skaven book, id been wondering if this was true?

....the Warmammoth is two Rare choices, ...for now i think, for i was wondering about the comparison ?

4 doomwheels / per 1 warmammoth

No, I was operating under the assumption that if players are going to bring nonsense from Forgeworld they aren't going to be sticking too heavily to the regular requirements...

I don't see what's so different between "Hey, can I bring this obscene monstrosity from Forgeworld that doesn't have any GW approved rules and use it to smash all your stuff?" and "hey, can I bring a couple extra Doomwheels to the game today?"

In either case you're throwing the rules out the window, and you better be lenient to your opponent if you expect him to let your £200 model see the top of a table.

jmcg1989
15-11-2009, 22:12
Why bother with the Wraiths? Just kill it with CR

Unless I have missed something about it?

wraiths have great weapons so and are ethereal, so can quickly dispatch it, with no real threat to themselves

jmcg1989
15-11-2009, 22:13
With vampires I just banshee screamed at it, its got a dire leadership.

its immune to psychology

if i remember correctly such units are immune to banshee's screams

Enrico
15-11-2009, 22:38
if i remember correctly such units are immune to banshee's screams
That was last edition's Vampire Counts book.

Also, Wraiths have quite a bit to fear from the Doomwheel. The ZZZAAAAP attack can easily kill 3 Wraiths a turn, even if the Wraiths are in combat with it. They better kill it quick or you could easily lose your 550 point unit of Wraiths to a 150 point Doomwheel.

PARTYCHICORITA
16-11-2009, 01:15
A lot of the replies point to S7+ attacks to deal with the doomwheell, which gets me a little confuse: Is it destroy by a single S7 wound like a chariot? Because it doesn't have the "chariot" rule anywhere i can see it.

outbreak
16-11-2009, 01:49
I thought it had to use it's movement in a straight line?

Enrico
16-11-2009, 03:00
Nope! Moves and manoeuvres like a chariot.

But it's not a chariot. Probably is a monster. S7 hits don't destroy it.

Not sure what Beast Cowers would do to it.

AtmaTheWanderer
16-11-2009, 03:01
A lot of the replies point to S7+ attacks to deal with the doomwheell, which gets me a little confuse: Is it destroy by a single S7 wound like a chariot? Because it doesn't have the "chariot" rule anywhere i can see it.

S7 attacks do not autokill the doomwheel. It is not a chariot.



I thought it had to use it's movement in a straight line?


No, it moves and maneuvers in the same manner as a chariot, just a random distance.

Lord Solar Plexus
16-11-2009, 09:45
Nope! Moves and manoeuvres like a chariot.


Now I'm completely confused. Why even mention the FAQ about what it can charge when what it can charge is completely and abundantly clear?!?

Enrico
16-11-2009, 12:19
Because it moves in the compulsory movement phase, so probably can't declare charges, but just charges what it bumps into.

So some people were thinking it could use its movement and manoeuvrability to start in the front of a unit and drive around it to bump into it in the rear. That's clearly right out.

danny-d-b
16-11-2009, 12:30
have to say I'm more scared of aboniations rather than doom wheels, doom wheels can say hellow to my dragon ogers

abomiations on the other hand, my chaos army has no flaming, most of the time burbus gets rid of regeneration (either take the general out to stop trolls or the herold if nurgle with burbus) and I persume its immune to killing blow as well (being more than US3?)

looks like I'm just have to hope the local skaven player doesn't take one or just bring the book of secrets on my exalted rather than the axe of khone

AtmaTheWanderer
16-11-2009, 18:31
have to say I'm more scared of aboniations rather than doom wheels, doom wheels can say hellow to my dragon ogers


Uhm... A doomwheel should make mincemeat out of Dragon Ogres compared to an abomination. 3 shots at art die str for d6 wounds each, followed by d6+1 str 6 impact hits?

Averaging things out that's 3 dead dragon ogres before they even get to swing.

Kuroi
16-11-2009, 19:45
Except that the dragon ogres are immun to lightning based attacks if I've understood it correctly ^^.

Medik_4077
16-11-2009, 20:26
Hey all,

I'm new to this forum (really forum's in general) and found this page by looking up the exact same thing (how to kill the cursed Doomwheel!).

I played a game a few days ago w/ my Tomb Kings and I lucked out. My Casket of Souls took it out on the top of turn one as it has pretty low LD. However, in our next (revenge) game, he learned his lesson by bringing in a few dispel scrolls and he now begins the game with the Doomwheel facing away from my casket (as it pivots and then moves in the movement phase).

On our 2nd game it proceeded to run down my entire flank taking out chariots, my catapult, and then hitting my infantry in the flank while they were engaged in the front. It basically was a rolling death machine! I tried to snip it w/ my catapult, but that didn’t work out and my casket never went off (thanks to gutter runners and lots of dispel dice!). I finally ended up making it flee on turn 6 as my Tomb Guard and king managed to rack up enough CR points to make both units it was engaged with flee.

So in summary for any TK players out there, the Casket is just mean against Skaven and if you can Urgency a block of troops (Ubshabti or Tomb Guard work great!) into it, you should be able to make it flee.

ScytheSwathe
16-11-2009, 21:43
how to kill the doomwheel? Bring more doomwheels yourself... honestly people, youre all approaching this argument in the wrong way....

The_Dark_Raven
17-11-2009, 01:59
I don't see the issue really, i chucked a Empire army against the new Skaven, i won and had enough points left over to gloat it out loud, the win came from the Doomwheel going to slay my Flaggets, the thing here that rocked so much was the hits totally blew them down but they didn't lose enough to worry about running there and then. When it came to blow right back the Warrior priest managed to knock it down with the help of a prophet and another Flagget.

The thing that is bad about it is you can't TACTICLY be ready for it, however you can be prepared to combat it when you set up, just ensure all your units are not too far apart, and any light units are just ahead of heavy ones, that way you can keep a bit of hurt should you manage to tie it up or it over runs.

Though the next battle i had the Volley Gun i have cleared it easy, the wizard did some damage to it as well, it's nothing like a Stank nor a Hydra to me, it just seems like a unit of knights dragging a cannon really, it has a weakness.

sulla
17-11-2009, 05:43
I don't see the issue really, i chucked a Empire army against the new Skaven, i won and had enough points left over to gloat it out loud, the win came from the Doomwheel going to slay my Flaggets, the thing here that rocked so much was the hits totally blew them down but they didn't lose enough to worry about running there and then. When it came to blow right back the Warrior priest managed to knock it down with the help of a prophet and another Flagget.

What are Flaggets? Was there a priest in the 'flagget' unit?

The_Dark_Raven
17-11-2009, 06:10
'flagellants' are 'Flaggets' as i call them for short. And as already mentioned if you read there was a Warrior Priest in the unit.

Stumpy
17-11-2009, 06:39
So obviously you aren't aware that warrior priests aren't allowed to join flagellants? Empire Errata.

The_Dark_Raven
17-11-2009, 06:50
As soon as i can i cast Unbending Righteousness prayer and join him into the unit, he can't start off in the unit, however he can join it with that prayer active, which it was at the time i always do this.

selone
17-11-2009, 09:16
As stumpy said as per the FAQ the warrior priest can't join flagellants, even with a prayer on. The reasoning is you can dispell the prayer and then you would have a breakable char in an unbreakable unit and then the universe woudl explode.

The_Dark_Raven
17-11-2009, 09:44
He leaves the unit when it's dispelled...I've played this at Tournies and in GW stores...it's accepted, I've not once had a complaint.

Emissary
17-11-2009, 10:52
It's accepted by your local group, but it isn't the way it should be done. Talking like it's an accepted thing everywhere when GW has officially stated it's not allowed isn't helping anyone. For example, I could say that in my group we treat the doomwheel like it's a chariot so that S7 hits auto-kill it (we don't but just humor me), then running to the forums and say it's easy to kill because 1 S7 hit destroys the thing and saying it's not hard to kill is about as useful as what you posted in your first post.

The_Dark_Raven
17-11-2009, 10:56
I understand you, just saying my local GW accepts it, and two tournies i've played one in 2008 one in 2009 have both had no problem with me doing so. If the rules cleary state you can't do that, then thats fine, i'm just telling you that i've been to offical events where they have allowed it which had led me to believing it's the widely accepted ruling, i'm a little shocked to hear it's not...sort of makes the wins i got in the tournies seem a little cheated.

Guess i'll have to take that up with the store next time i go in, and re-do my army list just incase i go to a tournie that pulls me up on it.

jmcg1989
18-11-2009, 20:57
That was last edition's Vampire Counts book.

Also, Wraiths have quite a bit to fear from the Doomwheel. The ZZZAAAAP attack can easily kill 3 Wraiths a turn, even if the Wraiths are in combat with it. They better kill it quick or you could easily lose your 550 point unit of Wraiths to a 150 point Doomwheel.

ah, my mistake
cheers mate


cant believe i missed the bit about the doomwheel being able to fire in combat
here i was thinking that the wraiths would be protected from the zzzap attack by being in combat with the doomwheel
lol

zeekill
18-11-2009, 23:13
Run a throwaway unit into them. 2 Ranks + Outnumber will probably hold up against its 2D6 S2 hits.

Cortomaltese
18-11-2009, 23:49
As stumpy said as per the FAQ the warrior priest can't join flagellants, even with a prayer on. The reasoning is you can dispell the prayer and then you would have a breakable char in an unbreakable unit and then the universe woudl explode.

totally true!


tried it once in a friendly match..

... breaking news called it Tsunami! :P

Lord Solar Plexus
19-11-2009, 13:29
So what's the current consensus on the original question? Empire armies can give up right from the start or prepare to get hammered into the ground?

tmarichards
19-11-2009, 14:57
I've not actually played against a Doomwheel yet, so this is all just speculation (and not much use if you're not a DE player...)
Dreadlord on Cold One with Crimson Death, Armour of Eternal Servitude and Pendant (always strikes at S6, regen and reverse ward save)... might not kill it for a while, but at least he won't get hurt, and the Doomwheel can't be turning something else into jelly.
Any comments welcome, I'm fairly new to DEs
Tom

Max_Killfactor
19-11-2009, 16:24
how to kill the doomwheel? Bring more doomwheels yourself... honestly people, youre all approaching this argument in the wrong way....

Be careful though.

A doomwheel can potentially kill 3 doomwheels a turn... man, they are overpowered.

sulla
19-11-2009, 18:24
So what's the current consensus on the original question? Empire armies can give up right from the start or prepare to get hammered into the ground?Empire has cannons for a reason.

Dranthar
20-11-2009, 07:56
So what's the current consensus on the original question? Empire armies can give up right from the start or prepare to get hammered into the ground?

Almost no multiwound units, plenty of cheap infantry, rod of command and cannons.

I'd say Empire are fine.

Lord Solar Plexus
20-11-2009, 08:21
Good to hear, cheers! ;)

shredshredxx
23-11-2009, 00:11
Empire has cannons for a reason.

skaven have the stormbanner for a reason.

a doomwheel rocked my o&g like no other last night. and i had 4 spear chukkas.

of course, that was before the indie shop's manager officially decreed that the storm banner shan't be reactivating in his store. what a good guy. [:

Talash
23-11-2009, 00:56
I would think for the Empire that just charging it with 5 Knights would win combat? Banner and outnumber, and unlikely to lose any of their number to 2D6 S2 attacks. The chance of getting the charge on it as opposed to the other way around is highly in your favour, and with good positioning you shouldn't have them getting zapped beforehand either.

Though the Doomwheel does seem to be one of those "easy when you know how" units to deal with, and thanks to it's random (controversial) movement it can either be hideously good or appaling.

fubukii
23-11-2009, 03:42
my storm banner failed vs my friends empire 2 days ago, he got 7 straight cannon shots off before he failed a single 4+ roll :(

Havock
23-11-2009, 04:49
Everytime a skaven player uses massed doomwheels, kholek eats a barrel filled with kittens.

Think of the kittens.

Rodman49
23-11-2009, 06:27
I would think for the Empire that just charging it with 5 Knights would win combat? Banner and outnumber, and unlikely to lose any of their number to 2D6 S2 attacks.

You don't bring 5-man Knight units with banners.

Poseidal
23-11-2009, 08:14
5 man knights are also wounding on 5s. I don't really fancy thier chances.:(

Adran
23-11-2009, 12:37
I would think for the Empire that just charging it with 5 Knights would win combat? Banner and outnumber, and unlikely to lose any of their number to 2D6 S2 attacks. The chance of getting the charge on it as opposed to the other way around is highly in your favour, and with good positioning you shouldn't have them getting zapped beforehand either.



The grind attack from the doom wheel does hurt the knights though.

And if you don't break it on the turn you charge, you very quickly lose a unit of knights.

I tried with Chaos knights, and it didn't work very well.

selone
23-11-2009, 19:33
My chaos knights muellered the doomwheel. I lost one knight and did three or four wounds on it.

fubukii
23-11-2009, 22:09
sadly chaos knights are about 100% better in cc then empire knights.