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StefDa
13-11-2009, 09:46
As the title says, I want to start Tomb Kings. I haven't bought any models yet, so I have a chance to do it right from the start.

Reason is, I'm playing Daemons now, and I'm growing a little tired of them. All of the whining I feel is true, they are simply a little too easy to win with. I played my very good friend's Wood Elves the other day, and he didn't stand a chance. I have never beaten him before.

I usually don't lose with my Daemons, and I'm to say it mildly not very skilled.

Tomb Kings, though, they fascinate me.

How is it best to start Tomb Kings? I mean, which units would be the absolutely best to include in a 1500 pts game? (That's what I aim for at first, unless I get an offer from somewhere). At 2.000 pts I would like to have a Giant, a Skull Thrower, some Scorpions, a unit of Ushabti and three Carrion. Also, shooting is wanted, since I've never played an army with any shooting worthy of mention.

It should be competitive :)

My first impression would be
1 King
1 Priest blister
1 Battallion
1 box of Skeletons to flesh the 32 from the Battallion out
2 blisters of Carrion (I have the first :D)
1 Skull Thrower

What do you think?

_Ashdil_
13-11-2009, 10:01
I think that's a good start!

My firend plays Tomb kings, and they are not as bad as some say, just that some units underperform. The problem you might have is that the army lacks a punch except from the tomb king and chariots. So perhaps a scorpion to start with aswell. Perfect war machine killer! And they have a hard time living withou thier unstoppable magic, so another preist perhaps. I have no clue on the points the units you are thiking of buying will be, so I dont know if you also could include both or one of the two I mentioned.

Some tips, from what I have leraned playing agaisnt them, is that a movement spell on skellies is a waste! I mean it's like they could march, if you play any other army that is never a problem you cant deal with! So move spell for the faster units, they need it better and can then get some nice charges early on in the game. My friend had one big Skellie spear unit, think they where above 30, they hardly ever died, so they could take on any unit and then it was stuck there. Gives plenty of time to charge the enemies weaker units or get a nice flank charge with chariots or normal cav. Thier cav is also good in larger numbers, getting a rank or two and the outnumber plus the banner that heals them, the ranks and outnumber does so that you cant take a few casualities and still winn the combat. That can deal with most enemy cav if you get the charge, again with your magic it can happen more often then not.
You will know how to use fear from deamons, it's the same deal here I guess (not knowing much about deamons)

Hope it helps!

Baggers
13-11-2009, 10:39
Go for it. I loved playing with my Tomb Kings army and I am tempted to go back to thinking about it. Remember to take some Archers as though they don't look good stats wise. Always hitting on a 5+ is a great thing and has seen me slay all manner of nasties.

Also Screaming Skull Catapult, with the burning heads is a great thing as well.

Enigmatik1
13-11-2009, 14:05
If you can find Tomb Guard and they are not out of your price range when you do, get yourself a unit. They're the only ranked infantry unit in the army with any hope of winning combat.

For the love of all that's holy, NEVER field Skeleton Heavy Horsemen. Make all your Horsemen Light when you assemble them and don't look back. Heavy Horsemen are, without a shadow of a doubt, the worst unit in the entire game.

Eventually invest in a Casket of Souls to compliment your Screaming Skull Catapult. The Casket is an additional layer of magic protection we sorely need most of the time and also ensures a more solid magic phase for you.

Otherwise, that's a great start and welcome to the fold.

ExarPucc
13-11-2009, 15:06
If you can find Tomb Guard and they are not out of your price range when you do, get yourself a unit. They're the only ranked infantry unit in the army with any hope of winning combat.


what do you mean if you can find? they're available for order still...

Sappysid101
13-11-2009, 15:11
I'm not overly sure but isn't Tomb Kings ment to be played as a gunline army? If so i guess spam the archers as hitting on a 5 at all times is sweet : )

- Sid

The mysterious man
13-11-2009, 15:14
He means if you can find some somewhere in your price range, at nearly 15 for command and 12 for normal tomb guard thats alot of money for a unit of 20 with full command! Shop around and try other websites and GW is often the dearest place.

ExarPucc
13-11-2009, 15:23
He means if you can find some somewhere in your price range, at nearly 15 for command and 12 for normal tomb guard thats alot of money for a unit of 20 with full command! Shop around and try other websites and GW is often the dearest place.


Ah ok. TK are on my list of final 5 of armies I'm considering getting into for WHFB. I didn't want to dive into a list that had missing models. Not that I couldn't make some myself, but, lets face it, sometimes it's good to be lazy.

DarkTerror
13-11-2009, 15:24
Why hasn't it been mentioned that it appears that Tomb Kings are rumored to be redone soon?

I'd wait if I were you and start a different army now if you're too eager.

Tolinwiz
13-11-2009, 15:41
TK are rumored to be re-done in 2011 from my understanding.

Competitive TK lists typically revolve around something like -

A few Carrior for march blocking
2-3 scorpions (depends if you take carrion)
One unit of 19 TG with king bunkered (or prince)
3 LP - One on a Casket of Souls (Essentially the casket is used because most people save 3 dice to dispel it..even though against most armies it isn't worth dispelling).
6-9 Chariots
20 regular skeletons, in a unit of 20, or 2 units of 10.


Basically you want to be able to get your smite off on a king to have 2 auto str 7/killing blow hits to everyone in base contact - coupled with a flank charge with chariots to break ranks. If you can do this, you can beat about any unit in the game.

The casket is key because people will go "GEE I need to hold 3 dice to stop the casket, I guess I'll let that movement spell get off that's going to let the chariots hit me in the flank and break my unit!"

I use 4 swarms and just stick them in front of whatever big unit I don't want to fight. I can usually keep one enemy unit out of combat for the entire game for 160 points.

Sometimes depending on the army, I'll just slingshot scorpions into units as a suicide bomber and try to killing blow lords. Have had pretty good success against Vampires and high elves doing that.

Anyhow, PM me if you have any questions.

CommonPirate
13-11-2009, 16:50
Heyo,

The Tomb Kings can be summed up in one word....Reliable. They never panic, always hit on 5+ with ranged, magic is always cast and never miscasts, etc. etc. But with reliability, comes mediocrity. Besides chariots, and fighty characters, the only killing power you have in close combat is the expensive (and often unreliable) Ushabti and Bone Giants.

A good start for any Tomb King army (I recommend 2000+ point games for them as they get a lot of power from their Lord choices) is:

Tomb King/Prince
2 Liche Priests
3-5 Carrion
1-2 Scorpions
30-40 Skeletal Bowman (this allows a bigger unit of 20ish, and 1-2 smaller units)
Screaming Skull Catapult
1-2 units of 3 Chariots
3-4 Ushabti

Makes for a nice, round force with a few options. The Battalion box is a good deal for the Tomb Kings, and I grabbed 2 when I started out. Gave me the skeletons, chariots and light horse I needed for a variety of lists. Again skip the heavy horse for now.

An idea if you wanted, is build 5 light horse and just leave the rest unbuilt. The rumored new TK book might change the way Tomb King heavy horse look and you might want to build some then. Just an idea of course.


The casket is key because people will go "GEE I need to hold 3 dice to stop the casket, I guess I'll let that movement spell get off that's going to let the chariots hit me in the flank and break my unit!"

I agree, and disagree. A lot of newer opponents, or low leadership armies, will keep the 2-3 dispel dice (or a precious scroll) for the casket which allows a lot more of your magic to go through.

I find the better bang for my buck comes from the -1 to cast that it imposes on the enemy. Has saved my butt more than a few times (atleast 1-2 times a game) and will often make my opponent throw that extra power die at a spell just to help get it through. That means less power dice overall, and less spells coming your way.


I use 4 swarms and just stick them in front of whatever big unit I don't want to fight. I can usually keep one enemy unit out of combat for the entire game for 160 points.

Really? With the unit starting at 4-5 combat resolution ahead of you (3 ranks, standard and possibly outnumber) the swarms have to do atleast 5 wounds to win combat or start crumbling. With their low WS, and toughness they enemy will often cause a decent chunk of wounds on top of the static resolution they already have. I can't imagine a unit of 4 swarms lasting more than a turn or two against any average ranked up unit.

The only use I have found for swarms is a unit of 1-2 to protect either my casket/catapult or march block/war machine hunt with "It comes from below..." when I've filled my special slots up and can't get another scorpion (happens all the time, Tomb King special slots are like gold....can never have enough).

Best of luck! Welcome (hopefully) to the ranks of the better undead army :)

Toshiro
13-11-2009, 20:34
(Essentially the casket is used because most people save 3 dice to dispel it..even though against most armies it isn't worth dispelling).

Sometimes you get very lucky with it though, my last game against DoC my casket wiped out about a third of his army first round, felt pretty nice :D

Tolinwiz
13-11-2009, 21:21
I don't expect the swarms to win. I put them in a line forcing my opponent to keep overrunning into them. I figure out what line a big unit of say, chaos knights are coming at me, I put a swarm in front of them. One behind that, so on and so forth. Turn one they move, turn 2 they charge overrun into the 3rd. Turn 3 they kill it, overrun into the 4th, etc.


Edit:
*I run them each as one seperate base, not a unit of 4 - sorry if my earlier post was unclear

Toshiro
13-11-2009, 21:30
you're only allowed to have 1 unit of tomb swarms in your army, they are 0-1 choice

Tolinwiz
13-11-2009, 22:16
Oh wow, totally playing that wrong! Whoops

Toshiro
13-11-2009, 22:40
it happens :)

Chiron
13-11-2009, 22:59
you're only allowed to have 1 unit of tomb swarms in your army, they are 0-1 choice

With good reason, Tomb Swarms are awesome!

Its probably best to leave chariots until you can field a Tomb King so leave those guys till last and stock up on Light Horse and Skeleton Warriors, bows and no bows, along with a Catapult or two and of course... Tomb Scorpions, the most wonderful unit in Warhammer, 85 points for a T5, WS 5, 5 wound (or is it 4?) monster that causes fear and does both Poison and Killing Blow and can tunnel and hide away from the enemy.

Fondest memory of this guy is when I burrowed up and charged into a unit of Night Goblins and chopped the head off a 200 point NG Level 4 Shaman on turn 2...

Toshiro
13-11-2009, 23:27
its 4 wounds and ws4, but it's still an awesome unit for its cost, if it were 5 wounds it would be one of the strongest units in the game undoubtely since then it would get us5 which means flank bonuses :p it's m7 is great as well when you use it with the urgency spell, giving you an effective 21 inch radius of attack every turn :p

And I agree with the tomb swarm, a great unit, 5 poison attacks and 5 wounds for only 45 points is pretty nice, and the small rule on it is great because it means you can use them as a nice360 degree los stop-block around your casket and catapult. And the below rule also makes it a potent war machine hunter if the need is there :)

Mr.Grey
14-11-2009, 01:59
i have never looked at the stats or armybook, but a friend of mine plays the tomb kings and he swears by chariots i belive they can squad up, also bone giant has regeneration, that is awsome, other than that i know nothing, good luck w/ your army

cheers

rmb43
14-11-2009, 04:53
Best. Army. Ever.

Punjoke
14-11-2009, 06:05
He means if you can find some somewhere in your price range, at nearly 15 for command and 12 for normal tomb guard thats alot of money for a unit of 20 with full command! Shop around and try other websites and GW is often the dearest place.

If you're considering Tomb Guard and are also planning to get a Battalion and a box of skeletons, I would highly suggest converting some of them into Tomb Guard instead of generic skeletons.

Each sprue comes with one armored torso and one helmeted skull, the other options all being un-armored. What I did was use all of the armored pieces, stuck shields on them and use them as Tomb Guard, then used the unarmored pieces for archers. Out of my 60 original skeletons, I ended up making 20 Tomb Guard and 40 regular skeletons. They're not as fancy as the real ones but they were a fraction of the cost, and are still easily distinguishable as a step up from my generic guys.


i have never looked at the stats or armybook, but a friend of mine plays the tomb kings and he swears by chariots i belive they can squad up, also bone giant has regeneration, that is awsome, other than that i know nothing, good luck w/ your army

Bone Giants actually don't have Regeneration.

Chiron
14-11-2009, 10:48
Each sprue comes with one armored torso and one helmeted skull, the other options all being un-armored. What I did was use all of the armored pieces, stuck shields on them and use them as Tomb Guard, then used the unarmored pieces for archers. Out of my 60 original skeletons, I ended up making 20 Tomb Guard and 40 regular skeletons. They're not as fancy as the real ones but they were a fraction of the cost, and are still easily distinguishable as a step up from my generic guys.


I second this, I used a mix of the Chariot drivers and the armoured skeletons to make my TG, along with afew out of green stuff

StefDa
14-11-2009, 11:46
Just so you know, guys, I am watching everything you write, I just can't comment on all of it! I have seen a lot of excellent pieces of advice in here, and I will definately strongly consider converting my Tomb Guard, especially since you say they're so important. I didn't think they were, so maybe it's a good thing a I started this thread... ;) I'll write up a sample army list for you guys a little later to say what to get and what not to get, alright?

You're the best.

Steffen.

StefDa
14-11-2009, 14:38
Alright, here it is.


1500 pts TOMB KINGS

Lords/Heroes: 445
Tomb Prince: 145
- Armour of the Ages
- Biting Blade

Liche Priest (Hierophant): 160
- Cloak of the Dunes
- Hieratic Jar

Liche Priest: 140
- Dispel Scroll

Core Choices: 576

10 Skeleton Warriors: 80
- Hand weapons, bows

10 Skeleton Warriors: 80
- Hand Weapons, bows

12 Skeleton Warriors: 96
- Hand weapons, bows

25 Skeleton Warriors: 250
- Hand weapons, spears, shields
- Full command group

5 Skeleton Light Horsemen: 70
- Hand weapons, bows

Special Choices: 365

2x Tomb Scorpions: 85/170
- Stinging tails & wicked claws

3 Ushabti: 195
- Huge ritual blades

Race Choice: 110

Screaming Skull Catapult: 110
- Skulls of the Foe

Total: 1496

This is a draft for my 1.500 pts list. What do you think about it, game-play wise and model wise?

CommonPirate
14-11-2009, 16:14
Heyo,

I like the general look of the list. I have a few personal things I would change, and I'll list them...but let you decide where to go from there :)

Prince: I'd drop his magic gear, kit him out with basic LA, Shield, Flail and put him on a chariot. Chariot of Fire is optional, but highly recommended.

The big block of 25 skeletons is good, but the LA/Shield vs. Spear debate has been done to death and I firmly believe spears are just not worth it for a tarpit unit. Drop the spears, and musician. Debatably drop the champion unless you plan on housing a priest there.

Drop the light horse. They just aren't as useful at this level unless they are hiding a priest on a steed.

Add a basic unit of chariots for the prince to ride with down a flank.

I personally don't like Skulls of the Foe on my catapults as I see paying 20 points for a measly -1 leadership just isn't worth it. Your mileage may vary.

Points can be shaved for some of the changes by dropping all the archer units to 10, maybe dropping the big block down to 20, dropping the skulls, etc.

Just some ideas :) Best of luck

Edit: Forgot, 2 scorpions is a bit overkill below 2000 points in my opinion. I'd drop one of them for the chariot unit. Forgot to add that.

Kiyo
14-11-2009, 22:32
Looking forward to their new army book. (Just hope Tomb guards are plastic T_T)

Toshiro
14-11-2009, 22:41
I'd drop the ushabtis for a block of 20 tomb guards with banner of undying legion, that combo creates a really deadly tar-pit. I agree with putting the prince on a chariot and dropping his magic gear, or giving him spear of antarhak, LA and enchanted shield and put him in the tomb guard block, basicly that unit will never die as it got both the summoning spell and spear to rejuvenate. And with the prince casting smiting on them their killing blows can cut down most opposition.

A unit like that costs 295pts, so drop the ushabtis, one scorpion and shave the skellies down to 20 and drop their spear for hand weapon, then you've got a pretty nice list I think =)

Chariots are also a good investment if you can move some more points around, 3 of them is only 120pts so if you drop the skulls of foe and the 12 skellie bows you've got 3 chariots. They are well worth their points. 3 of them will give and average of 6 s4 impact hills followed by 3 s4 and 9s3 attacks, it's generally enough to obliterate a rank or two from most infantry, giving your enemy no return attacks and with some luck giving you outnumber hence autobreaking your opponent and running them down. One of my fondest memory was 3 chariots + my prince in a chariots crushing 16 corsairs just in kills in one charge :D

Chiron
15-11-2009, 00:31
Theres a tactica thread in the tactics forum if you want to learn more about TK... recently bumped by some handsome devil so should be on first page

White_13oy
15-11-2009, 01:01
Bone Giants don't have regeneration. Also, I have always had fun playing Tomb Kings. I welcome you to the priesthood.

EDIT:: Whoops, missed the second page, still, the welcome part is still valid :)

march10k
15-11-2009, 16:28
I'm not overly sure but isn't Tomb Kings ment to be played as a gunline army? If so i guess spam the archers as hitting on a 5 at all times is sweet : )

- Sid

TK can be played as a gunline, especially with khalida in charge (poison FTW!!), but that's not the norm. The problem is that basic skeletons are commonly accepted to be completely useless in hand to hand combat, leaving no use for them except as bowmen...and since you have minimum required core choices, and not a lot of alternatives...you end up seeing lots of bowmen. But the best TK stuff is NOT gunline stuff (except for the catapult and casket).


I'd recommend taking a unit of at least 19 tomb guard with the banner that allows a free reform at the start of movement (HUGE agility!) and bolstered by a prince. This is your immovable and unflankable object. TG are reliable in assault on their own, with a prince they should win regularly. Against a gunline, you'll need the prince to run the unit across the field, too.

I'd recommend taking scorpions for all remaining special slots. If you have enough, have one guard the casket and catapult if you take them. But the main purpose is to deepstrike and eat enemy artillery, mages, and missile troops.

I'd recommend taking a king on a chariot in a unit of three chariots with full command. Give the king the +1W armor and the healing spear. Give his chariot the ward save. He'll keep that unit alive a very long time. It's not exactly a deathstar, but it's a very mobile hard hitting unit...especially for hitting the unit that charged the TG in the flank, or getting at that gunline in a hurry.

I'd recommend a casket of souls to get the most out of your magic phase. The casket doesn't ever need to get the light of death off. Because of the highly structured nature of the TK magic phase (the casket goes dead last), you'll never have problems getting your king and prince spells off. Why? Because the enemy will save dice for two things: preventing the casket from firing, and preventing the catapult (assuming you take one) from firing in the magic phase. Not to mention the -1 modifier to enemy casting rolls!

I'd recommend a screaming skull catapult with skulls of the foe. A lot of enemies are ITP, sure, but most gunlines aren't....and you'll need all the help you can get suppressing that gunline while your chariots and TG hoof it across the field and you wait for the scorpions to burrow up. When SotF works, it works well enough to pay for the times it doesnt.

I'd recommend putting the cloak of the dunes on your heirophant. It'll keep him alive, and the consequences of letting him die are too horrible to imagine. Pretty close to auto-lose. NEVER put him on the casket, makes his a sitting duck. Give a lesser priest that dangerous duty!

Tomb swarms, ushabti, and carrion are also quite popular with TK players, but I have no experience with them. They're probably quite good, but I don't use them. I am going to use a large tomb swarm to supplement my deepstriking scorpions when I expand my army beyond 2000 points, for sure, though.

What to avoid? Skeletal horsemen. The heavies might be the worst unit in the warhammer world. The light ones have only one use. If you have a lich on horseback, a unit of mounted archers can give him a "look out, sir!" without being a total waste of points, since they get a little bit of shooting, too. Bone giants get a lot of hate heaped on them. I think it's because they have low WS and slow movement. The most common comment on them is that if they had one more point of WS, they'd be a good choice, and with improved WS and more movement, they'd be outstanding, but as they are, they stink on ice...especially since they compete with the SSC and casket for a rare slot.

As for the new army book...it's a year away, and if it has a bunch of great new toys...well, I guess it'll be time to expand your army, not redo it. You lose nothing by pulling the trigger now with units that work under the current book, and you gain a year of fun. If tomb guard suddenly stink in the new book, it's probably because hand weapon and shield stock skellies got better...so use the TG as stock skellies. Just as an example. The only real risk you run is the risk of units not appearing in the new book. I think the highest risk there is special characters being replaced with new ones. And if you can't use queen khalida as herself...she can still be a stock princess/queen, right?

StefDa
15-11-2009, 23:55
I read all of the entries and I find them incredibly useful.

What is the cheapest way to get a good 1.500 pts army when you've got no models save for a lone Carrion? I don't mean eBay vs Maelstrom Games vs whatever, which order in which to buy things and how much of each box etc.