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SirSnipes
13-11-2009, 21:34
lets keep wishlisting out of the rumour thread and in here, so my wishlist


KEEP WBB, JUST SIMPLIFY IT

monolith to 250pts
another heavy support choice( preferably a large tomb spider)
lords to be 60pts
pariah to get 2 attacks and i5, along with fnp for the same price, with the warscythe
flayer ones should get 2A and have 2 CC weapons
wraiths should rend and have 2 CC weapons
heavy destoryers to be a upgrade from destroyers, and have a twin linked weapon
repair scarabs that can be bought and attached to squads and act as to improve their repairs rolls
some new characters and the tier lords

i would like to see the ctan not removed, but instead manifest through a host
perhaps a cultist unit for new units
-a large tomb spider with dreadnaugt style stats
- plastic pariah, immortals, flayed ones and wraiths
recut cheaper destroyers, and sell em in boxes of three like nid warriors

bocaj
13-11-2009, 22:29
Also i would like the other 2 c'tan to come out and some sort of snipers. Uve got just what i want n i would also like phaseout to be removed or just made harder to force.

Arakanis
13-11-2009, 22:40
Just combine Orks, Eldar, Tau and Necrons into Codex: Xenos. There are too many non-marine codices these days! :P

Seriously though, some variety of vehicles beyond the monolith.

I really think that Necron base WS should be dropped to 3. There's not really any convincing argument why it should be 4.

I really can't agree with snipers. It's not really the Necron way. Some more effect close combat troops would be interesting. And various war machines like the Tomb Spyder and Scarabs but in different roles would be fluffy and cool too.

C'tan of course must be removed.

puppetmaster24
13-11-2009, 22:46
why must C'tan be removed? seriously i want an answer from the warseer community.

Lord Damocles
13-11-2009, 23:11
Dear GW,

Necrons are weak. Buff please.

Regards,
Necron players.

............


why must C'tan be removed? seriously i want an answer from the warseer community.
C'tan as actual bajillion year old star vampires who have created and annihilated dozens of races and subjugated galaxies should never have been represented at 40K skirmish level.

It's like having actual Khorne in your Chaos army.


As 'Essence of C'tan', or 'Herald of C'tan' or similar they'd be fine; and frankly given GW's usual reluctance to deny the use of models from previous editions of a codex, this is what I'd expect to see from the next list.

SirSnipes
13-11-2009, 23:42
i fee necrons should have theri ctan changed to avatars of selct ctan in name, problem solved

Dark_Templar
13-11-2009, 23:58
C'tan apoc only.
Extra heavy support choices.
Another troops choice
Lord which make an Elite scoring.
Additional Transport.
Necron type dread/walker.

SirSnipes
14-11-2009, 00:13
i for one do NOT want a transport, i feel part of the uniqueness of crons is that they footslog it

Tokugawa100
14-11-2009, 00:19
lets keep wishlisting out of the rumour thread and in here, so my wishlist


KEEP WBB, JUST SIMPLIFY IT

monolith to 250pts
another heavy support choice( preferably a large tomb spider)
lords to be 60pts
pariah to get 2 attacks and i5, along with fnp for the same price, with the warscythe
flayer ones should get 2A and have 2 CC weapons
wraiths should rend and have 2 CC weapons
heavy destoryers to be a upgrade from destroyers, and have a twin linked weapon
repair scarabs that can be bought and attached to squads and act as to improve their repairs rolls
some new characters and the tier lords

i would like to see the ctan not removed, but instead manifest through a host
perhaps a cultist unit for new units
-a large tomb spider with dreadnaugt style stats
- plastic pariah, immortals, flayed ones and wraiths
recut cheaper destroyers, and sell em in boxes of three like nid warriors

I actually like the idea of cultists.
There are chaos cults gene stealer cults and a pariah cult makes sense.
I could see "especially in the Adeptus Mech" poor pathetic minions wishing to worship the gods of the material world for they are the true lords of technology.

I also want the whole c'tan manifestation to happen, that way we can have all four C'tan and not destroy the fluff.

Reflex
14-11-2009, 00:19
C'tan to apoc only is a good idea.
I would love to have FW model c'tan that are literally as powerful as a Warlord Battle Titan, if not more powerful. lets face it, these guys eat stars when they want a snack, while everyone else just has a piece of toast. they should be hard core powerful and friken scary.

I do think that lords should be able to be avatars of their c'tan, (this would open up the 2 other c'tans, although it would leave them out of apoc) and they should be quite nasty.

i have no any other things to add to this thread because im still undecided on most other things in the necron codex...

Dark_Templar
14-11-2009, 00:27
Sorry, when I mentioned additional transport, I mean something that is similar to the monolith in it's teleporting of models, not a Necron version of the rhino.

It would be nice if there was something smaller and less heavily armed than the monolith that could bounce the units around the table.

PLR
14-11-2009, 00:41
Three things I would like to see:

1. Scarabs can fill any open FC slot, and have without number! Really give that swarm feeling.

2. A deep striking pylon/tower thing (comes up from the ground, and pushes anything above it out of the way) that are basically teleport homers for Necron Units that can Teleport.

3. Every time a Necron unit is forced to take a Morale Test the unit can teleport to somewhere else on the field (assuming they pass the test, if they fail they don't come back). This would really give the sense of Necrons coming and coming and just being everywhere.

Would play like nothing else in the game...

Dan-e
14-11-2009, 01:08
With all these wishlist there is one thing i find kind of lacking as far as necrons go and it comes more in fluff then in game rules.

I look at so many different types of armies and each one has with in it a different selection of Canon Armies, or chapters, Hives, Septs or what not. I look at necrons and there are Grey/metal looking ones and then... a whole tone of random colors ones that have no grounding in canon or history.

I would like to see some kind of background on the Necron Lords or C'tans that used different kinds of metal to make their necron armor or painted them in some kind of herald like color patterns. If the Necron Lords that control things now are individual personas as well do they have a preferred way of making their units and their looks?

It just something i would like so i can look at a necron and be like "o hey thats a warrior of BLAH BLAH BLAH Lord of this and that place". More so if the lords are being given a larger role in the Necron System then the C'tan in the up coming content. As of now its just "o, so you painted them blue?"

Lord Damocles
14-11-2009, 01:15
I look at necrons and there are Grey/metal looking ones and then... a whole tone of random colors ones that have no grounding in canon or history.
Not strictly true. Ref: Tau and Necrons Collectors' Guide, pg.44.

SirSnipes
14-11-2009, 05:19
i feel that the idea of, if crons get swept instead of dying they simply are removed and rreenter through deep strike could be cool, and remove phase out, but instead of fleeing from combat they disapear and deepstrike in later

madd0ct0r
14-11-2009, 05:42
Introduce the obilisk - cut down version of the monolith that's shooty but dosen't have the transport option.

This dosen't really solve the 'slow army' feel, but 'run' hides a multitude of sins...

Flayed ones to become troops (possibly tied to the Outsider?)

Replace their elite slot with a shooty spider - maybe a gausss elemental sieve - flame template.

Necrons could stand to have WS lowered to 3 along with a price drop of the basic warrior.

More customization options eg. Wraith body for a Lord.
Possible upgrades for Squad leaders too -

axel18
14-11-2009, 05:45
I agree that they should be knocked down to bs 3, but make their weapons more shooty or possibly longer range. This would fit both with advanced technology and the idea of them as foot-slog machines that steadily advance while shooting under slung.

Jinra
14-11-2009, 05:48
I would love to see a massive Cron tank hunter/combat mini-titan, Trygon size.

Pawnz0rcron.. yeah...

Seriously though, it would be s**t hot.

Jackmojo
14-11-2009, 05:54
I'd keep Living Metal but make it just a 4+ invulnerable save, that way the monolith can drift forward and ignore shots other, lesser vehicles would need cover to survive.

This also has the added bonus of not rendering specific anti tank weapons (I'm thinking XXXXlances and melta) fairly useless against it and providing equal protection against all threats.

To mimic the old "miniatures teleporting to other units" effect, having every Necron unit count as a Locator Beacon for Deep Strike might be nice.

Personally as to the basic Necron Warrior statline, I would like increased toughness and a decreased save (with FnP), something like this:

WS3
BS4
S3
T5 (to let them keep access to FnP vs most shooting, as well as cementing them as the toughest basic troops)
W1
I2 (or even 1 I like the image of them as slow and solid)
A1
Ld10 (with Stubborn when within say 12-24 inches of a Lord)
Sv 4+

Special Rules:
Slow and Purposeful (But make one of the Lord abilities upgrade them to just Relentless when in his area of effect)
Feel No Pain (call it WBB in the fluff if you want)

Gauss Gun: 24" S4 AP4 Rapid Fire, Rending (I could even be sold on the gauss gun moving to STr5, but that might be stepping on the Tau's hooves a bit much)
Squad size: 5-25 (really just to have a different number here then other armies, I think twenty or thirty is fine, but I like variation).

An Option to purchase the unit a Veil of Darkness rather then being reliant on a character escorting them around. This could be coupled with the Monolith being an extra large beacon and removing the gate ability from the Monolith itself (thus allowing it to not get to spendy).

Other units would be based of this baseline, with a strong emphasis on Lords (and perhaps some other like Tomb Spyders) providing a unit buffer aura to mimic the undead>necromancer spell effects.


Jack

Reflex
14-11-2009, 05:58
I agree that they should be knocked down to bs 3, but make their weapons more shooty or possibly longer range. This would fit both with advanced technology and the idea of them as foot-slog machines that steadily advance while shooting under slung.

you mean WS 3 yea?

axel18
14-11-2009, 06:27
yep, my mistake ws3 and more firepower

TimLeeson
14-11-2009, 11:05
plastic wraiths and something like a special character to be able to take them as troops would totally get me to collect necrons.

Combat Emu
14-11-2009, 13:14
I'd love to see more cool necron specific rules.
First time someone plays against necrons it's always: "Wtf? You can't do that!"
I love that. They should exactly go for that with a few new and cool rules that noone else has.

WBB should stay. Ok you can change it, but fnp is imo just too boring.

C'tan should be definetly out. Not out of the fluff but out of the normal games though I think it'd be cool if you could dedicate your army to a C'tan for special benefits and disadvantages either by manifestation through a lord or by some army wide special rules.

Some new and reworked lord toys would be great too.

A few additional ways of teleportation or fast movement or at least a fast troops choice should be adequate imo.

Pariahs should become the hammer unit they were supposed to be. They should be able to rival those pesky seer councils, assault terminators and boss bikas.

Some minor changes to all existing units to make them worth taking again.

Ah and I actually think some cultists would indeed be cool.

RampagingRavener
14-11-2009, 15:14
We'll Be Back remains, in a slightly different form. After an opponent's shooting and assault phases, any Necron unit which has taken casualties and is not fleeing rolls a D6 for every model removed as a casualty that turn; on a 4+ they're placed back into the squad. Necrons who were removed as a casualty via a weapon which ignored their save or caused Instant Death may not be rolled for unless a Tomb Spyder or Resurrection Orb is within 12".

This would mean that if a Necron unit is entirely destroyed, it would not be able to make WBB rolls. I could however see a piece of wargear or something similar allowing destroyed Necron units to re-enter the battlefield on a 6+. Perhaps tied into the Monolith, to represent them being used as gateways between the battlefield and the Tombs, sending fully repaired units back into the fight.

Flayed Ones and Scarabs should be moved to troops.

Wraiths get buffed; an extra wound and Power Weapons. No points change.

Pariahs get buffed; Feel No Pain and an extra attack. Perhaps more Strength as well. I'd like to see Pariahs a little like Terminators, in that they don't hit quickly, but they're tough enough to take a beating then they hit back hard.

More options and personality for the Lords. Play up the references to how many of them have gone insane, while others remain mostly coherent. A Necron Lord should be anything from a near-mindless servant of the C'tan, to a bitter, scheming individual lashing out at the young races due to spite, to an utterly haywire, rogue unit.

Beyond that, really, I think most people all want the same thing from Necrons; more variety, new units, a global power buff, and some slightly awkward rules neatened up.

EDIT: If cultists are included, I'd like to see them more as feral populations rather than rogue Adeptus Mechanicus cults. While I'd love to see the Admech getting some miniatures beyond the Engineseer models, I'm not sure it would really do them justice.

Grand Master Raziel
14-11-2009, 17:25
why must C'tan be removed? seriously i want an answer from the warseer community.

Because my Terminators killed them both, and those games were totally canon, at least as far as I'm concerned. :evilgrin: Seriously though, they just don't belong in the 40K scale. Avatars of the C'Tan, sure, actual C'Tan, no way.


I'd keep Living Metal but make it just a 4+ invulnerable save, that way the monolith can drift forward and ignore shots other, lesser vehicles would need cover to survive.

This also has the added bonus of not rendering specific anti tank weapons (I'm thinking XXXXlances and melta) fairly useless against it and providing equal protection against all threats.

There isn't a problem with the Living Metal rule. What there is a problem with is the fact that there are weapons out there that necessitate the Living Metal rule in the first place - specifically, Bright Lances and Dark Lances. Lance weapons are an ugly 3rd edition kludge, like the old choppa rule, that deny players something they paid points for - the full AV of their vehicles. Remove the AV-reducing property of Lances and instead give them bonuses to their rolls on the Damage tables if they get results vs AV13+. That'd preserve the idea that they're more effective against more heavily armored vehicles without unfairly negating a quality that's part of the cost of the vehicle in question. Then, rules like Living Metal can just be dropped, because they won't be needed anymore.


WS3
BS4
S3
T5 (to let them keep access to FnP vs most shooting, as well as cementing them as the toughest basic troops)
W1
I2 (or even 1 I like the image of them as slow and solid)
A1
Ld10 (with Stubborn when within say 12-24 inches of a Lord)
Sv 4+

I think you're confusing the current version of FNP with the old version. The new version isn't negated by the strength of the weapon, but by the save-negating properties. AP2 is how you negate FNP now.

As to the statline, I'm not sure how I feel about it. T5 4+ FNP is kind of interesting, though it would make heavy bolter fire quite a bit more effective than bolter fire. For most purposes, would actually be less tough than Plague Marines.


Gauss Gun: 24" S4 AP4 Rapid Fire, Rending (I could even be sold on the gauss gun moving to STr5, but that might be stepping on the Tau's hooves a bit much)

I'm leery of giving Rending to any race's basic gun. I think that would be way too much. I know that Necrons don't get heavy weapon upgrades, but the current Gauss rule is sufficient to make up for that. Rending across the board for all Gauss weapons would make Necrons way to powerful, unless they were jacked up in price a lot. I don't think either S5 or AP4 are going to fly, either. No race has AP4 for their basic weapons, and only Tau get S5 basic guns, and they pay for that by being T3 4+ and inept in close combat.


An Option to purchase the unit a Veil of Darkness rather then being reliant on a character escorting them around. This could be coupled with the Monolith being an extra large beacon and removing the gate ability from the Monolith itself (thus allowing it to not get to spendy).


What about being able to attach individual Pariahs to Necron units? Then the Pariahs could take VoD and teleport units around, rather than units simply being able to buy it.

Anyway, as far as WBB goes, FNP does practically the same thing, but is a much simpler mechanic. Necron armies would not lose out by having FNP instead of WBB. In fact, they'd be better off, because someone who understands how WBB works can select targets in a way to deny Necron opponents the opportunity to take WBB rolls, but there aren't any such shenanigans to deny FNP rolls.

SirSnipes
14-11-2009, 17:30
i want wbb to stay as it is different to fnp, i like being able to stand back up when you think youve killed me instead of simply having another save

Combat Emu
14-11-2009, 17:49
Performance wise it sure doesn't matter, but fluff and style wise I prefer WBB.

Dasqueek-Master Assassin
14-11-2009, 18:00
- C'tan as Apoc only, but with warlord Titan like stats. (A vet sarg with a PF taking down a god is just stupid...)

- Lords as avatars of their C'tan. Start at around 80pts and for X points become avatars and gain some power (like gaze of death for a NB lord) and maybe a stats boost while still retaining a 100pt limit on wargear

-All "necrons" (warriors, immortals, Flayed ones, destroyers, etc...) replace WBB with Feel No Pain. All foot models are slow and purposeful, except FOs

- Warriors are T5 and 1 squad per army is required

- Basic scarabs (as they are now) are available as troops, but can be upgraded to repair mode and can be saced for some sort of repair ability

- Exploding scarbas available as HS

-Immortals (plastics please!) T6 points bump to 30 pts

-Pariah- 2A, I4, FNP, 3+/5++ at same points

-Flayed Ones- 2A plus 2CCW, fleet, some ort of ability to pierce armor, not necessarily with all models but maybe as special weapons upgrade (amybe like necromundus hands LOL)

- Destroyers- T6

-Wraiths- 3A, 2CCW, rending, 2 wounds OR squad size up to 5/6

-Monolith- 250pts

-Heavy destroyers- as destroyers, but as an upgrade to destroyer squads like a heavy weapons trooper

-Tomb Spyders- 3w, 3+/5++, FNP

There is a saying I used to have in my sig that is the perfect version of why warriors need to be tougher that anyother basic troop out there;
"They are hulking robots running on zero point sub atomic technorape space energy, they have to be toughter than a pissed off marine with crabs -Hellebore"

Thanks Hellebore :P!!!

Cognitave
14-11-2009, 19:02
I'd actually like FnP. Call it "we'll be back". It would really help streamline games.

*goes to ground*

SirSnipes
14-11-2009, 20:41
I'd actually like FnP. Call it "we'll be back". It would really help streamline games.

*goes to ground*

SHOOTS gauss flayer but misses

Carraway Effect
14-11-2009, 22:53
Remove the present armywide "We'll Be Back" in favor of Feel No Pain. This represents small battlefield repairs and the advantages of powerweapons/Instant Death. (Yes, AP2 works now. This ain't Fourth, the las-plas boogieman isn't lurking behind every corner now. If your opponent has to devote anti-tank weaponry to your troop choices, you're already ahead of the game.)

To compensate, give Necron Lords (slash-Monoliths) a new ability. Call it WBB if you like, call it Penguins on Parade if you don't. Every turn, a squad under max size within [x]" of the lord (or warping through the portal) gets some [random quantity] of models added back to the squad. Either a function of the Res Orb, or somehow enhanced by it. Ideally, you could choose between modes--e.g. all units within [x]" regain one wound's worth -OR- one unit gains d3 wounds' worth--but that's particularly wishful thinking.

Use Fantasy as a model - Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings don't have half the rules confusion of Necrons. And Fantasy is nothing if not a game of confusing rules interactions, so that statement has some weight to it.

No quantum models, no table clutter, and still more interesting and complex in its applications than Plague Marines.

hawo0313
14-11-2009, 23:10
I think that firstly flayed ones and wraiths should have rending I dont know it just seems better than power weapons to me. Also wraiths should be more survivable 2 wounds perhaps. Necron warriors should be better at taking down vehicles and work like aniper rifles in this instance i.e. AP 1 of rolling a 6 to penetrate vehicle armour. I dont know what pariahs need but whatever it is they need it

other than this the whole codex needs a general buffing some more than others(except the monolith)

Arakanis
15-11-2009, 02:12
*goes to ground*


*SHOOTS gauss flayer but hits, wounds and is saved on 6+ cover*

I have changed this post to be more inline with the rules. No need to thank me.

Edit: I definitely cannot agree with Necron Warriors getting squad upgrades or squad leaders beyond disruption fields. They're SUPPOSED to be boring monotonous legions of undying metal super warriors. That said, a WS3 BS4 S4 T5 W1 I1 A1 3+ stat line could be interesting. I really can't agree with improving the Gauss Flayer past changing the Gauss rule. (Gauss weapons are +1 on the vehicle damage chart and may always wound/glance on a 6?)

polymphus
15-11-2009, 02:36
I'm with the FNP crowd. The only difference between it and WBB is the point at which the models get back up. Inventing a new rule is fine if there's not a rule already present, but this is sorta like (say) Space Marine scouts getting 'sneak' that allows them to deploy outside their normal deployment zones within 12" of an enemy if out of LoS, or 24" if within. It's different from a current rule, but not enough that there's any point having a new rule.

I'd like to see more information the the other two c'tan, and the ability to theme one's army around a particular star god. The only thing I'd say that does against the rest of the thread is have flayed ones as fast attack and buff their combat skills instead of moving them to troops. The Essence of the Outsider HQ should allow a certain number to be used as troops. Give them DS and Infiltrate, plus maybe an ability to assault from deep strike if they're within a certain range of a lord.

More teleporting! Maybe I play too much DoW, but the necron teleportation schtick is characterful and very effective if used right. I like the idea of certain units working as teleport homers. I'd not say all units, but maybe lord, spyders and immortals?

Also, drop their save right down. I'd actually like to see something like T5, FNP with no armour save: it represents how they work quite a lot better. Necrons within a certain range of spyders/lords get FNP on a 3+ or 2+ depending on how many 'healer' units there are nearby.

Relentless/Slow and Purposeful. Nothing more to add there.

Reflex
15-11-2009, 02:58
well that fact that crons dont have a real transport should mean that teleporting becomes their transport. so maybe its not a bad idea if we dont have it as basic but can be upgraded to have more options and such. just a thought.

Dasqueek-Master Assassin
15-11-2009, 04:02
well that fact that crons dont have a real transport should mean that teleporting becomes their transport. so maybe its not a bad idea if we dont have it as basic but can be upgraded to have more options and such. just a thought.

I actually like this alot...

megatrons2nd
15-11-2009, 04:04
T5 would be a problem for many armies. I have no problems with upping the Toughness of certain aspects of the army. However; Guard, Eldar and other low Strength armies will have a hard time winning if the Basic trooper is T5. The base S3 gun would need 6's and S4 weapons need 5+ to wound against a T5 unit. Then that unit would get 2 saves a 3+ armor and a 4+ WBB/FNP if they fail. I would prefer to see either an extra wound with FNP or lowering the armor to 5+ with T5 and WBB/FNP which would allow for basic weapons to actually have a chance to hurt them.

Yes, I know Eldar have good weapons but they are limited in number. Using anti-armor weapons to take down an infantry unit as a requirement should not happen.

Dasqueek-Master Assassin
15-11-2009, 04:07
Again, ill refer you to my main argument against this...Plaguemarines

Necrons should be harder to kill than some stupid sick marine...

megatrons2nd
15-11-2009, 04:21
But they shouldn't be so hard as to make the game boring for both players.

Cognitave
15-11-2009, 04:43
If I remember correctly, a plague marine (T5, 3+/4+) is about 4 times more durable than the average Space Marine. It seems kind of...ominous...that if they're an army of plague marines, priced as such, there's going to be a bunch of complaining. T4, 3+/4+ I can deal with, but I'm not sure we need yet another tonka-tuff unit in 40k.

Arakanis
15-11-2009, 04:45
Again, ill refer you to my main argument against this...Plaguemarines

Necrons should be harder to kill than some stupid sick marine...

Plague Marines are not "Some stupid sick marine" They are Astartes, genetically engineered super humans with redundant organs, armour like skeletons and the stamina of a bull moose, infused with the raw aetheric power of the dark gods of the warp, specifically the Plaguefather, master of death, dying, decay and pestilence who takes away their fear and any sensation of pain. They are the embodiment of painless, fearless, everdying, unliving deathlords.

Necrons are fancy robots. :P


Seriously though, Necrons could be Tough. Now, should they be TOUGHER than Plague Marines? On par might be okay. Plague Marines are pretty tough and for game reasons I find them already a little too difficult to shift.

Spectral Dragon
15-11-2009, 05:01
I actually do not like the idea of FNP, fluff wise. I'd hope to keep WBB army-wide.

-Allow pariahs to be teleported, in some fashion. This would make them the deadly unit they are supposed to be.

-Change the statline to be less MEQ, my personal idea for warriors (lately) is:
WS2 BS5 S5 T5 I2 W1 A1 Save: 4
Slow and Purposefull
Necron

S3 weapon, however, with guass, rapidfire.

-Add one or two troop choices, possibly with the selection of different HQ units or special buyable army-wide abilities that allow the use of different units as troops

-Put a great focus on necron technology. guass could possibly add +1 to the damage chart as well as 6's being auto-wounds and auto-glance's.

-Fluff, I want more!

-Another vehicle

-More plastic!

Cognitave
15-11-2009, 05:03
I think if a bolter round were to penetrate a plague marine's armor and detonate, there would just be a spew of rotting, diseased flesh and chuckling from the Adeptus Disgustus...


I'm not sure if I can stomach "plague marine ROBOTS!" as an army. I can see necrons being 17 or so points for WS4 BS4 S4 T4 I3 A1 Ld9 Sv 3+(4+), but if you want T5 3+/4+, Chaos is the right way to go. On one hand, you just have blatantly overpowered, and the other is blatantly overcosted. Considering Phase Out, one would imagine pricey, small units would be best avoided...

Arakanis
15-11-2009, 05:08
Oh, and that's one more thing. Phase Out has to stay. Wanting it gone is just your inner beardy talking.

CthulhuDalek
15-11-2009, 05:31
Necron profile:
WS. 3 -- they're not designed to fight in hth, but would probably be about average.
BS. 4 -- they have advanced targeting systems.
S. 4 -- They're robotic.
T. 5 -- living metal
W. 1
Ld. 9-10(60 million year old doom robots!) maybe 9 with stubborn or somesuch. Intractble?
Sv. 4+. The "toughness" of their metal is included in this and their t5.
Rules: Feel No Pain, Phase out of some form, slow and purposeful.

I think additionally, there should be some way for most necron units to enter the game via deepstrike. This could cost additional points per unit, be intrinsic in their points value, OR be used exclusively through characters.

Not sure about gauss...

Arakanis
15-11-2009, 05:59
Necron profile:
WS. 3 -- they're not designed to fight in hth, but would probably be about average.
BS. 4 -- they have advanced targeting systems.
S. 4 -- They're robotic.
T. 5 -- living metal
W. 1
Ld. 9-10(60 million year old doom robots!) maybe 9 with stubborn or somesuch. Intractble?
Sv. 4+. The "toughness" of their metal is included in this and their t5.
Rules: Feel No Pain, Phase out of some form, slow and purposeful.

I think additionally, there should be some way for most necron units to enter the game via deepstrike. This could cost additional points per unit, be intrinsic in their points value, OR be used exclusively through characters.

Not sure about gauss...
I like your statline. It's perfect.

Personally, I think Necrons should be Fearless. I've never liked that they can fall back. It really doesn't make sense for robots nor is it in character with the Necrons. Also, yea on Teleporting, and yea on SNP (Keep in mind that SNP now grants Relentless in conjunction.)

Don't know about FNP though, I still think that WBB should be it's own rule.

Reflex
15-11-2009, 06:22
so the gerneral consensus is that marine armour is stronger, more resilient then living metal armour (the 3+/4+ save argument) and therefore necron armour is on an equivalent stat line with scout/carapace/wraithbone armour.

or are people tyring to think in a balance sense?

Arakanis
15-11-2009, 06:28
so the gerneral consensus is that marine armour is stronger, more resilient then living metal armour (the 3+/4+ save argument) and therefore necron armour is on an equivalent stat line with scout/carapace/wraithbone armour.

or are people tyring to think in a balance sense?

Wraithbone armour confers a 4+ invulnerable save, btw :P

Necrons have very good armour, however this would be represented by T5, WBB/FNP and then 4+ armour would be reasonable.

Cognitave
15-11-2009, 06:38
It seems more logical that the living metal bonus would be in their toughness, rather than in their armor save. Also remember the game is an abstract, so close representation is as good as you can get sometimes.

And consider it this way; 18 points for a marine with a better gun and (basically) FnP, at the cost at I2? If they remove the current "We'll Be Back!", and replace it with FnP AND give them a toughness boost, necron players should be ready to pay. Consider that Plague Marines only have 1 point of initiative less, but are fearless (which necrons seem very likely to be), are 23 points each. That's a 27% increase in points. And we're considering a weapon that's able to keep transports at bay worth 1 point of initiative.

So if necron players want their "Super Duper Tonka Tuff" Troops, fine. But having all this fancy new crap is gonna come at a cost, and many players are forgetting phase out. I guess I mean to say, "be careful what you wish for"

Arakanis
15-11-2009, 06:43
To sum up, Cognitave,

Necrons have always been Marines++ at minimal cost. At 2 extra points you have the same statline minus 2 initiative, and an extra save and a super-bolter.

I think it's about time they pay for that stuff if they want it or look for stat reduction.

Kriegfreak
15-11-2009, 06:45
I'd love to see some updates for the Crons, certainly another Heavy Support option. Toughness might be good on an elites choice, something equivalent to plague marines seems reasonable. I'm seeing a little to much 'marines this, necrons that' 'necrons are more advances and so necrons obviously must be more powerful than any other before or since'. But.. hopefully GW gets it right.

Cognitave
15-11-2009, 06:48
I remember the days of losing Land Raiders to some shooting from Warrior Squads. I took an "extended hiatus" for a bit to play some fantasy, I was sick of everything being able to ignore an AV14 hull (ugh, Lance Edition..)

I guess I just don't want another Plague Marine army out there. They're bad enough without the ability to trip up transports...

CthulhuDalek
15-11-2009, 06:48
Wraithbone armour confers a 4+ invulnerable save, btw :P

Necrons have very good armour, however this would be represented by T5, WBB/FNP and then 4+ armour would be reasonable.

Yep, basically this.

To Reflex: I imagine that it's somewhere between power armour and carapace armour in it's ability to resist damage, but may be more brittle than power armour. The advantage is that once it is damage, the living aspect allows it to repair like a living creature. This is well represented with t5, 4+ with FNP. A heavy bolter wounds it on 4s, ignores its armour but still has to get through FNP.

And to Arakanis again: I'm glad we agree on the profile! I think it'd be interesting if there was a rule like...

"Necron: All units in the necron army with this rule (granted, it may end up being all of them) have the following special rules. Slow and Purposeful(Yep, with relentless -- the effect of relentless should give food for thought on how gauss could work -- it could remain rapid fire, or even become "heavy"). They all have We'll Be Back, which means they benefit from the Feel No Pain USR. PHASEOUT: Necrons are FEARLESS(I'm thinking this could include an extra penalty to No Retreat, to represent individual necron units phasing out, rather than an army wide phase out... Or to give Necrons Initiative 1, and make them Intractable(Is that the one where they are immune to morale checks and pinning tests, but are not fearless in close combat? Make them leadership 8 or 9 in THIS case, with stubborn and intractable, but with intiative one to make them suffer from sweeping advance). All Necron models count as a teleport beacon, meaning that any unit deepstriking within 6 inches of any necron model will NOT scatter." The last ability is a HUGE benefit, which I think makes up for any other mobility problems for the necrons.

I'm not completely familiar with all wargear and whatnot for necrons, but it'd be cool to allow what is currently on lords to be unit by unit upgrades. For instance, the wargear piece that allows necrons to deepstrike each turn, could instead be a piece of wargear for individual necron squads: A unit with this upgrade gains the deepstrike ability. I do not think the ability to redeepstrike is even necessary with how this rule would function in coordination with my (currently :P) proposed "Necron!" rule.

Gauss weapons could be taken in many directions and EVERYONR has their own ideas...

Cognitave
15-11-2009, 06:51
I just realized, no matter which way we slice it, low I = more complaining about Jaws...

With 5th being the way it is, Necrons need fearless or something like ATSKNF. When I played Necron players with my Chaos list (Black Legion codex lol), I'd always bring plenty of Khorne Berserkers because Sweeping Advance is just the BANE of the army.

Arakanis
15-11-2009, 06:54
As far as teleporting goes, someone mentioned pylons of some nature that could spring up and act as beacons. I kind of like that idea, basically covering the playing field with a handful of indestructible/untargetable beacons that allow Necrons to deep strike without scatter near them. I think it would add a rather unqiue aspect. Now either these could use deep strike themselves or placed during deployment.

CthulhuDalek
15-11-2009, 07:00
I just realized, no matter which way we slice it, low I = more complaining about Jaws...

With 5th being the way it is, Necrons need fearless or something like ATSKNF. When I played Necron players with my Chaos list (Black Legion codex lol), I'd always bring plenty of Khorne Berserkers because Sweeping Advance is just the BANE of the army.

I think that sweeping advance with the extraction of the current phaseout rule, could be a sensible place to give the necrons a weakness.

Crons should be good at:
-mid-medium range shooting. Relatively good rates of fire, the ability to pop light tanks, and medium armour etc etc. Some better antitank(destroyers et al)
-Not dying! -- very tough troops with FNP, not falling back to enemy shooting.
-Surprise/scare tactics- drop a monolith into enemy lines, deepstrike its "passengers" into enemy territory. Chaos ensues. Somewhat similar to drop podding armies, or with the option of taking more infantry and footslogging.

Crons should bad at:
-Fighting anything better than guardsmen in assault. Vs. guard they should be about equally on offense, have a better defense, and strike last.
-When facing opponents in HTH and losing they should be easier to run down-- they phase out, after all.

This means getting RID of the current phase out rule and simply replacing it with intiative 1. A fair tradeoff in my eyes. Their current ld rules would then be altered to allow them to be immune to morale and pinning except in HTH. And even then ld. 8 or 9 with stubborn means they won't be as likely to run, but when they DO they're gonna run for the immortal lives!


As far as teleporting goes, someone mentioned pylons of some nature that could spring up and act as beacons. I kind of like that idea, basically covering the playing field with a handful of indestructible/untargetable beacons that allow Necrons to deep strike without scatter near them. I think it would add a rather unqiue aspect. Now either these could use deep strike themselves or placed during deployment.

This would work as well. However, it seems somewhat thematic if the crons could latch onto their own units' positions, since that's where the thick of the fighting would be. This could even mean certain units would be forced to deploy within 6 inches of a necron/pylon/monolith beacon or else roll deepstrike mishaps? This would make them less like daemons in that they cant pop up anywhere, but more like daemons from CSM. Food for thought!

Cognitave
15-11-2009, 07:06
Phase Out gives us a way to deal with the Monoliths, however. I think if you have a necron lord on the table, your army won't phase out. Once he's dead and gone, then they'll phase out. It should take the death of the general and most of the soldiers to get an army to flee, but a good general (or might lord in this case) should be able to keep his soldiers around.

CthulhuDalek
15-11-2009, 07:18
Yeah but if you consider phase out to be individual units of necrons retreating to their tomb for damage that may be very difficult to repair, then it's on a unit by unit basis.

Also, I think the monolith and many other units would need to be altered to consider these differences. I agree with an above poster that the monolith should have an invulnerable save, most likely. Or at least have an automatic cover save. This would replace the current living metal rule. It's transport systems would be simplified to counting the monolith as a beacon for teleport(thus no pulling units from combat -- or at least not within the power of the monolith(A lord could have a rule that still allows for "redeepstriking" and the monolith would be another way to count for this.

In this way, just deal with a monolith the way people deal with landraiders.

EDIT. Also, the whole lord/general/crumble thing... too Vampire Counts for me (and I play them!)

Reflex
15-11-2009, 07:19
Wraithbone armour confers a 4+ invulnerable save, btw :P


I was thinking more along the lines of the psychically activated body suits worn by guardians and aspect warriors, not rune armour. :)


To sum up, Cognitave,

Necrons have always been Marines++ at minimal cost. At 2 extra points you have the same statline minus 2 initiative, and an extra save and a super-bolter.

I think it's about time they pay for that stuff if they want it or look for stat reduction.

Necrons did pay for it, in 3rd edition, when they were 3 points more then a marine. also, comparing a necron to a marine is silly, especially considering a warrior is a 3rd edition unit while a marine has all its beefed up abilities of a 5th edition unit (ATSKKF, combat squads, that fall back thingy and all the war gear bonuses they got and they paid how much? 1 point for the additional stuff they got.) so keep in mind your comparing units 2 editions apart.

i know its common to compare things to a marine, but why not actually consider the position the warriors are in now and say this is what they need to become decent, rather then "no they cant have that because it makes them more cost effective then a marine". its silly.

they need: stubborn, wwb needs to be fixed and possibly SnP so the army can shoot.

so really phase out can stay if they become stubborn or fearless because the problem with phase out now is when you loose your entire squad to a puny assault unit because of your crap initiative.

also, do warriors need ws 4? no, they are clearly a harvester/ ranged unit, 2 or 3 should reflect that. do they need to be T5? no, why? because guard armies are going to need to dedicate AT units at basic squads while the monolith runs around laughing. its unnecessary and if t5 was to be implicated then the army would need a 4+ save in reality, which even then, with a 4+ FNP is still over kill.

ideally necron warriors should be harder to kill then they are now in assaults and they would basically be fixed.

CthulhuDalek
15-11-2009, 07:41
Necrons did pay for it, in 3rd edition, when they were 3 points more then a marine. also, comparing a necron to a marine is silly, especially considering a warrior is a 3rd edition unit while a marine has all its beefed up abilities of a 5th edition unit (ATSKKF, combat squads, that fall back thingy and all the war gear bonuses they got and they paid how much? 1 point for the additional stuff they got.) so keep in mind your comparing units 2 editions apart.
Over the two editions, marines did not change that drastically, bear in mind. I'm not even talking about points values. A warrior could cost 25 points if it really functioned the way it should and was worth 25. I don't think that's necessarily the case, but you catch my drift?

i know its common to compare things to a marine, but why not actually consider the position the warriors are in now and say this is what they need to become decent, rather then "no they cant have that because it makes them more cost effective then a marine". its silly.
Necrons are compared to marines because of similar stats and weaponry. It would help to change this by giving them a more unique statline.

they need: stubborn, wwb needs to be fixed and possibly SnP so the army can shoot.
I think stubborn and (I hope I've been right...)intractable, with initiative value of one. I agree with slow and purposeful. With slow and purposeful we could keep their weapons 12/24 rapid fire even. Not sure about strenghth, AP and gauss rule yet.

so really phase out can stay if they become stubborn or fearless because the problem with phase out now is when you loose your entire squad to a puny assault unit because of your crap initiative.
I see no reason to keep phase out as an army wide special rule, especially if all models in the codex become "necrons." The way I've mentioned in above posts allows a unit by unit basis for phase out.

Leadership 8-9 with stubborn means that IN close combat if they fail, they will still most likely pass their test. I'm leaning towards leadership 8 in t his circumstance. If they DO fail, which is not likely, they're pretty much gone for good imo, and initiative one definitely helps represent this.

Who cares if you lose the whole squad in HTH -- you're meant to be outshooting. HTH is supposed to be their weakness, and even then they're going to be very resilient -- this is their fundamental weakpoint. The reason being wiped out unit by unit is so damaging currently is that it allows FULL ARMY phase out to occur much faster than before. My revisions change this so that a unit by unit phaseout occurs about as much as now, but decreases army wide phase out.

also, do warriors need ws 4? no, they are clearly a harvester/ ranged unit, 2 or 3 should reflect that.
I agree.

do they need to be T5? no, why? because guard armies are going to need to dedicate AT units at basic squads while the monolith runs around laughing. its unnecessary and if t5 was to be implicated then the army would need a 4+ save in reality, which even then, with a 4+ FNP is still over kill.
For the sake of making necrons more resilient to small arms fire, and differentiating their profile with other meq... why not? Guard will not suffer against them much more than against plague marines. Most armies have str. 5 ap. 4 in some quantities -- mianly heavy bolters, and high amounts of shots will still do a lot of damage. Think of the warrior units like individual daemon princes. Or just drop a pie plate on them like a REAL guardsman :D

ideally necron warriors should be harder to kill then they are now in assaults and they would basically be fixed.

I think they should be harder to kill with shooting, be better shooters, be more resilient overall, cost a little bit more, and be worse *overall* in hand to hand.

polymphus
15-11-2009, 08:39
also, do warriors need ws 4? no, they are clearly a harvester/ ranged unit, 2 or 3 should reflect that. do they need to be T5? no, why? because guard armies are going to need to dedicate AT units at basic squads while the monolith runs around laughing. its unnecessary and if t5 was to be implicated then the army would need a 4+ save in reality, which even then, with a 4+ FNP is still over kill.

I'll still say it, T5, FNP, no armour save. It better represents them and gives them a better niche in regard to troops choices. Lasguns will bring them down if massed. I'd say something like this;

Necron Warrior...21pts/model
WS2 BS3 S4 T5 I2 W1 Ld10 Sv-
Fearless, Slow and Purposeful, Feel No Pain
Equipment: Gauss Rifle
Options: All models in the unit may purchase internal summoning matrix (needs better name) for +3pts/model.
Gauss Rifle: 24" range, rapid fire. S4, AP5, counts as AP1 on a to hit roll of 6. All hits get a +1 modifier on the vehicle damage chart.
Internal Summoning Matrix: the unit may now benefit from friendly necron teleportation abilities.

I don't think Necrons deserve BS4. There seems to be some assumption that they have built in targeting systems, but I think that might just be people who can't stop thinking about The Terminator. Necrons aren't skilled at what they do; they're scary because they're so relentless.

You also need to imagine this unit in the context of the army. The necron army as I imagine it will be extremely small and elite, with teleportation favoured over transport vehicles. Another idea I had;

Obelisk...90pts/model

Heavy Support, 1-2 per choice. May be deployed independently from one another, although are only worth a single kill point.
Front Armour: 13 Side Armour: 13 Rear Armour: 13
Special Rules: Living Metal, From Below, C'tan's Scream

Living Metal: as per current rules
From Below: An obelisk is never deployed normally: it must always be held in reserve and enter via deep strike. When it arrives, if it lands on a terrain piece that terrain piece is instantly removed. If it lands on a friendly or enemy unit, that unit is moved out of the way. Enemy units must be moved so they are not within 1" of the obelisk.

While it is not destroyed, friendly Necron units with the ability to do so may teleport to the obelisk. The unit must be placed entirely within 2" as if they had just disembarked a transport vehicle. They may shoot in the turn they teleport, but may not move.

C'tan's Scream: Shooting Attack. Place a large template with the centre hole over the obelisk. It does not scatter. Any model it touches (friend or foe, not including the obelisk) takes an immediate S9, AP2 hit. This attack causes pinning.

player21
15-11-2009, 09:17
Why do they need fearless or stuburn? I can see immortals with fearless but regular warriors. I do agree warriors need fixing but if you buff them to much their price will go up. I do think they need some kind of defenvice genrade.

Combat Emu
15-11-2009, 09:29
They already have something like defensive greandes called flame mask(hope this is the correct translation). That doesn't help much though... This way the attacker kills only 5 instead of 6 crons :P

Stubborn would be adequate.

But why not introduce 2 types of basic warriors? One ~ 10 points choice with 3 stats line + whatever armor and special rules u finally make up for necrons(maybe with a few drawbacks) and one type for 20 points with that 4, 5 stats line and maybe a better gun.
This way one could play both, the elite force and the horde army.

Reflex
15-11-2009, 09:41
player21 if you dont know why crons need stubborn then you dont know the army and you haven't read this thread and the millions like it.

polymphus, how can you justify a point cost for a stat line like that. you have nerfed them into the ground, all for fearless, SnP and an increased T by 1. logic?

CrownAxe
15-11-2009, 09:42
Why do they need fearless or stuburn? I can see immortals with fearless but regular warriors. I do agree warriors need fixing but if you buff them to much their price will go up. I do think they need some kind of defenvice genrade.
Because sweeping advance is the bane of Necrons as it ignores WBB completely (not even the rez orb can save them)

Fluffwise it's suggested that they are fearless and only retreat when it is the most logical decision. Something along the lines of ATSKNF would be fair, not necessarily fearless of stubborn. Perhaps a rerollable LD test or a reduction on negative modifiers

player21
15-11-2009, 09:50
Because sweeping advance is the bane of Necrons as it ignores WBB completely (not even the rez orb can save them)

Fluffwise it's suggested that they are fearless and only retreat when it is the most logical decision. Something along the lines of ATSKNF would be fair, not necessarily fearless of stubborn. Perhaps a rerollable LD test or a reduction on negative modifiers

Sweeping advance is the bane for a lot of armies. FNP would help with some of that. I don't think the game needs any more fearless or stubburn troop choices running around.

CrownAxe
15-11-2009, 10:03
Sweeping advance is the bane for a lot of armies. FNP would help with some of that. I don't think the game needs any more fearless or stubburn troop choices running around.
It is hardly the BANE for any other army. Its the bane for Necrons because it ignores one of our army wide special rules completely, that being WBB. Does Sweeping Advance ignore any army wide special rules for other armies? No it doesn't. Not only that but Necrons have Phase Out has another special to counter balance WBB. But if WBB is being ignored then Phase Out isn't balancing anything and is just a slap in the face to any necron player

SirSnipes
15-11-2009, 16:47
way to fix warriors

-1 ws
keep WBB
stubborn

just FFS dont give us fnp

Dasqueek-Master Assassin
15-11-2009, 16:53
One thing I think were forgeting in the PM vs warrior argument is the other stuff the PMs get...
They get;
Transports
blight gernades
a champion with a powerfist and multiple attacks
special weapons
and an army that is very capable of filling the few gaps they leave al la oblits
and flying monsterous creatures

The warriors have non of these and must still be there in a decent amount to counte phase out.
This is why I think its not necessarily as bad an idea to pump up their stats to PM status...

CthulhuDalek
15-11-2009, 17:16
I'll still say it, T5, FNP, no armour save.I think they should have a 4+ armour save. I don't mind if it increases their points a bit... It better represents them and gives them a better niche in regard to troops choices. Lasguns will bring them down if massed.Same as lasguns bring down terminators or plague marines. Heavy bolters will be okay against them. I'd say something like this;

Necron Warrior...21pts/model
WS2 BS3 S4 T5 I2 W1 Ld10 Sv-
Fearless, Slow and Purposeful, Feel No Pain
Equipment: Gauss Rifle
Options: All models in the unit may purchase internal summoning matrix (needs better name) for +3pts/model.
What is the Necron lord ability called that allows them to teleport?
Gauss Rifle: 24" range, rapid fire. S4, AP5, counts as AP1 on a to hit roll of 6. All hits get a +1 modifier on the vehicle damage chart.
This could work, but I still think gauss weapons need a thorough reworkin in general.
Internal Summoning Matrix: the unit may now benefit from friendly necron teleportation abilities.

I don't think Necrons deserve BS4. There seems to be some assumption that they have built in targeting systems, but I think that might just be people who can't stop thinking about The Terminator. Necrons aren't skilled at what they do; they're scary because they're so relentless. Necrons aren't zombies. They're superkilly robots with laser-death-beams(well guass not lasers) They kill with *brutal efficiency* at range. In hand to hand combat their slow movements would should be limited, as you have put it, which I think warrants their BS of 4. They do not deserve a weakness there.

You also need to imagine this unit in the context of the army. The necron army as I imagine it will be extremely small and elite, with teleportation favoured over transport vehicles. Another idea I had;

Obelisk...90pts/model

Heavy Support, 1-2 per choice. May be deployed independently from one another, although are only worth a single kill point.
Front Armour: 13 Side Armour: 13 Rear Armour: 13
Special Rules: Living Metal, From Below, C'tan's Scream

Living Metal: as per current rulesmeh. Inv or cover makes more sense.
From Below: An obelisk is never deployed normally: it must always be held in reserve and enter via deep strike. When it arrives, if it lands on a terrain piece that terrain piece is instantly removed. If it lands on a friendly or enemy unit, that unit is moved out of the way. Enemy units must be moved so they are not within 1" of the obelisk.

While it is not destroyed, friendly Necron units with the ability to do so may teleport to the obelisk. The unit must be placed entirely within 2" as if they had just disembarked a transport vehicle. They may shoot in the turn they teleport, but may not move.

C'tan's Scream: Shooting Attack. Place a large template with the centre hole over the obelisk. It does not scatter. Any model it touches (friend or foe, not including the obelisk) takes an immediate S9, AP2 hit. This attack causes pinning. this ability seems counterintuitive "jump out of me as I zap you with my gun!" What would make more sense is if it didn't have offensive capabilities as such. Instead it could scramble enemy deepstrike, and even give necrons between the obelisks a benefit, like some sort of obscuring, or discounting psychic powers. Some examples like in apocalypse or planetstrike, but balanced for 40k.

I think you should read the suggestions I made earlier, they might interest you.

Still going to advocate stubborn and that other rule(intractable????) or whatever though.

PLR
15-11-2009, 17:39
If their armour save gets lowered then whatever it ends up being should be an invulnerable. That would have a living metal feel to it.

I have a feeling that the Necrons will be the Anti-Psycher army...

I'd also like to see Gauss changed to "no cover saves". Their fire just stripes everything away...

CthulhuDalek
15-11-2009, 17:46
If their armour save gets lowered then whatever it ends up being should be an invulnerable. That would have a living metal feel to it.

I have a feeling that the Necrons will be the Anti-Psycher army...

I'd also like to see Gauss changed to "no cover saves". Their fire just stripes everything away...

Then they shouldn't get WBB. Then they're just daemons...

The invulnerable save works on the monolith, and even then it might be better as a cover save.

No cover saves still gives them no benefit against anything with an armour value better than a 5+ sv or an av 10 vehicle. Which is why I've been saying it will take more thought to fix gauss than a single special rule while maintaining the profile. The gauss flayer etc etc, need to have a major reworking for all of them...

PLR
15-11-2009, 18:04
Then they shouldn't get WBB. Then they're just daemons...

The invulnerable save works on the monolith, and even then it might be better as a cover save.

No cover saves still gives them no benefit against anything with an armour value better than a 5+ sv or an av 10 vehicle. Which is why I've been saying it will take more thought to fix gauss than a single special rule while maintaining the profile. The gauss flayer etc etc, need to have a major reworking for all of them...

They're just marines with 3+, They're just Daemons with 5++, They're just orks with no save... considering the limited nature of the rule set there is going to be overlap which ever way it goes. They could just get a 2++ and no WBB or FNP, have it all wrapped up in their save.
For one I doubt they will lose the 3+ and Wbb/FNP.

No cover saves with Gauss would be pretty scary for the heavier weapons of the destroyers and give them a good chance against horde armies. They could still glance as well. That might balance them out with the new glancing table, while still being advanced tech...

Arakanis
15-11-2009, 18:26
If Necrons got a codex-wide pass on cover saves, it would be like GW admitting they went overboard with cover in 5th :P

PLR
15-11-2009, 18:31
If Necrons got a codex-wide pass on cover saves, it would be like GW admitting they went overboard with cover in 5th :P

Here's hoping. :chrome:

CthulhuDalek
15-11-2009, 18:33
They're just marines with 3+, They're just Daemons with 5++, They're just orks with no save... considering the limited nature of the rule set there is going to be overlap which ever way it goes. They could just get a 2++ and no WBB or FNP, have it all wrapped up in their save.
For one I doubt they will lose the 3+ and Wbb/FNP.

No cover saves with Gauss would be pretty scary for the heavier weapons of the destroyers and give them a good chance against horde armies. They could still glance as well. That might balance them out with the new glancing table, while still being advanced tech...

Or there's always the 4+ armour save that I and a bunch of others have suggested.

This means that heavier anti-infantry weapons still have a chance to take them down, but they get a 50/50 chance of "wbb'ing" with feel no pain.

Also, the invulnerable save seems to originate from warp-based powers the majority of the time, so I think giving them inv makes little sense. T5, Sv 4+ with FNP makes them brutally "tough" and reflects how they should function. Weapons with high ap will be deadlier than lower ap, but it will be harder to instant death them. However, plasmaguns will make short work of them. Battlecanons will kill 50 percent of the wounds they cause on them.

Cognitave
15-11-2009, 19:48
way to fix warriors

-1 ws
keep WBB
stubborn

just FFS dont give us fnp

"We'll be back!" -

Necrons can attempt to self assemble after sustaining heavy, even lethal, damage. They have the Feel no Pain universal special rule.



Done. See? It's the same thing, it doesn't slow down games by creating a whole new phase, and it doesn't create a bunch of odd scenarios with squads and kill points. It doesn't even need an entire section of the FAQ devoted to it.

CrownAxe
15-11-2009, 19:54
"We'll be back!" -

Necrons can attempt to self assemble after sustaining heavy, even lethal, damage. They have the Feel no Pain universal special rule.



Done. See? It's the same thing, it doesn't slow down games by creating a whole new phase, and it doesn't create a bunch of odd scenarios with squads and kill points. It doesn't even need an entire section of the FAQ devoted to it.

No It has to be at the start of the Necron Turn

NO COMPRIMISES

Lord Damocles
15-11-2009, 20:00
Done. See? It's the same thing, it doesn't slow down games by creating a whole new phase, and it doesn't create a bunch of odd scenarios with squads and kill points. It doesn't even need an entire section of the FAQ devoted to it.
It also doesn't give the uncertainty of knowing how many Necrons will get back up. That feeling you get by not knowing if you should throw more firepower at those few remaining Warriors now, or risk most or all of those you've already downed getting back up, etc.

There's a far greater difference between WBB and FNP than just when they're rolled for.

Necro Angelo
15-11-2009, 20:40
if games workshop want me to still be their friend then there should be some decent fluff on Ulthanesh and the C'tan wars.

Cognitave
15-11-2009, 20:46
It also doesn't give the uncertainty of knowing how many Necrons will get back up. That feeling you get by not knowing if you should throw more firepower at those few remaining Warriors now, or risk most or all of those you've already downed getting back up, etc.

There's a far greater difference between WBB and FNP than just when they're rolled for.

I'd love to experience that "feeling". I know the math, I deploy and fight accordingly. Every player does that in some varying degree. How is "HOLY CRAP 3 GOT BACK UP AND JOINED MY UNIT!!1!two/" any different than passing 3 FnP saves? I mean, congratulations, your opponent gets that uncertainty...for about 30 seconds, then he picks another shooting unit and moves on with the phase. If a unit gets annihilated in the shooting phase, goes to 25% or below and breaks, moving away from the "injured" unit awaiting WBB, what then?

Psychology? Come on...

Arakanis
15-11-2009, 20:53
This is almost a little off topic, but I'm gonna say it here. I really wish that Necrons and Craftworld Eldar got a near simultaneous release to focus on their rivalry and status as the two ancient powers.

It would also be interesting if each army had a couple powers/weapons/abilities that gave them an edge up on the other. (Anti-Psyker wargear for Necrons and Anti-living metal weapons for Eldar)

That said, I really feel like the Necrons should have some level of susceptibility against Warp powers on one hand, and yet have some wargear to protect themselves as well. (Living Metal doesn't function against Psychic attacks, WBB is less effective or something, Res Orb negates this weakness, Monolith projects null-shields... etc)


I'd love to experience that "feeling". I know the math, I deploy and fight accordingly. Every player does that in some varying degree. How is "HOLY CRAP 3 GOT BACK UP AND JOINED MY UNIT!!1!two/" any different than passing 3 FnP saves? I mean, congratulations, your opponent gets that uncertainty...for about 30 seconds, then he picks another shooting unit and moves on with the phase. If a unit gets annihilated in the shooting phase, goes to 25% or below and breaks, moving away from the "injured" unit awaiting WBB, what then?

Psychology? Come on...

I actually like the image of WBB, thematically it's more interesting than simple FNP. For that exact reason, you don't know how well WBB will do until the NEXT turn. I really do think that it need to be carefully worked on so it's not as confusing. For example, having the conditions of WBB only matter at the start of the next turn would take care of the falling back units confusion.

Necro Angelo
15-11-2009, 21:25
This is almost a little off topic, but I'm gonna say it here. I really wish that Necrons and Craftworld Eldar got a near simultaneous release to focus on their rivalry and status as the two ancient powers.

It would also be interesting if each army had a couple powers/weapons/abilities that gave them an edge up on the other. (Anti-Psyker wargear for Necrons and Anti-living metal weapons for Eldar)

That said, I really feel like the Necrons should have some level of susceptibility against Warp powers on one hand, and yet have some wargear to protect themselves as well. (Living Metal doesn't function against Psychic attacks, WBB is less effective or something, Res Orb negates this weakness, Monolith projects null-shields... etc)



I actually like the image of WBB, thematically it's more interesting than simple FNP. For that exact reason, you don't know how well WBB will do until the NEXT turn. I really do think that it need to be carefully worked on so it's not as confusing. For example, having the conditions of WBB only matter at the start of the next turn would take care of the falling back units confusion.

that would be really cool, like I implied earlier I always felt that the fluff only really scratched the surface concering past feuds with the eldar and necrons. would'nt even be that unplausible as Eldar don't really need as much rework as the Necrons.

SirSnipes
15-11-2009, 21:31
i say make wbb that on the turn after a destoryed necron on a 4+ gets up and joins the nearest unit of its type on the table. Power weapons and weapons that ignore saves negate this ability.

simple, done and not fnp

Arakanis
15-11-2009, 21:49
that would be really cool, like I implied earlier I always felt that the fluff only really scratched the surface concering past feuds with the eldar and necrons. would'nt even be that unplausible as Eldar don't really need as much rework as the Necrons.

Well, I think that Necrons need to be playable again, and fluff needs expanding, however, I think that the Eldar have fallen pretty far from their fluff in the game and I feel like that needs to be addressed in the next Codex. That's another whole thread though.

Jackmojo
15-11-2009, 21:51
i say make wbb that on the turn after a destoryed necron on a 4+ gets up and joins the nearest unit of its type on the table. Power weapons and weapons that ignore saves negate this ability.

simple, done and not fnp

Unit hopping is unlikely to happen again since it mucks up Kill Points so much, same reason orks had to lose their similar feature.

Feel No Pain is a good choice rules design wise as it means you don't need two rules representing 'harder then normal to kill' units.

Jack

Arakanis
15-11-2009, 21:56
Unit hopping is unlikely to happen again since it mucks up Kill Points so much, same reason orks had to lose their similar feature.

Feel No Pain is a good choice rules design wise as it means you don't need two rules representing 'harder then normal to kill' units.

Jack

Well, make it simple then. WBB can only allow units to rejoin the original unit. Perhaps it pulls the wreckage of their fallen with them as they move, or the remains crawl after them as they reassemble, or they phase out and phase back into place with their original unit. I personally feel that FNP is too generic for the Necrons.

SirSnipes
15-11-2009, 22:30
i agree its too generic to make the whole army feel special, they've always had wbb

Cognitave
15-11-2009, 22:46
i agree its too generic to make the whole army feel special, they've always had wbb

Let's not even start that.


But I do agree that there needs to be some Eldar/Necron tension. Also, some psychic protection in general. We've already had a 38 page thread full of complaining about Jaws, I'd like to avoid another.

Arakanis
15-11-2009, 23:14
Let's not even start that.


But I do agree that there needs to be some Eldar/Necron tension. Also, some psychic protection in general. We've already had a 38 page thread full of complaining about Jaws, I'd like to avoid another.

I personally thing that the Necrons should be the least capable at dealing with Psykers, after all, their entire purpose behind the "Great Work" was that they couldn't match them and they had to cut their power source. However, that doesn't mean they shouldn't have some tricks (Albeit, expensive ones) similar to Apocalypse' Nightshroud or what have you. Personally, I feel that Psychic powers should be the Necrons weakness. So basically, in general, psychic powers are bad for them, but they have some units (Pariahs, Specially Geared Lords) who can snub their nose at Psykers.

SirSnipes
16-11-2009, 02:40
i agree psychers should be necrons bane, while normal weapons are ones they just stand up from

wbb vs all normal weapons
no wbb vs psychic weapons including force weapons

that would be very unique

Cosmic_Girl
16-11-2009, 07:54
Hi guys,

My wishlist/changes I would make:

Army special rules:

- All Necrons have Relentless.
- FNP replaces WBB
- Disruption Field - +1 attacks, rending in CC
- Gauss weapons stay the same, -1 to Leadership of units which take morale checks from Gauss shots.
- Necrons cannot have their leadership values reduced below 8 (when they get scared the hard wiring takes over)
- Necron units can purchase the ability to teleport (but may do nothing else that turn if they do) 20 pts per unit?
- Multiple levels of Lord
- Chronometron - resolve attacks and sweeping advance at initiative 6(confers ability to friendlies in the same unit)
- GoF - defensive and assault grenades (confers ability to friendlies in the same unit)
- Pariahs - 2+ save, 2 attacks base, no further change.
- Warriors - WS 3, 16 pts (please bare in mind above changes)
- Flayed Ones - Troops choices if assaulty lord is taken, fixed with proposed disruption field, count twice as many kills for determining winner in CC.
- Attack Scarbs introduced - without number
- Repair Scarabs - Re-roll FNP and Vehicle damage within 12"
- Wraiths - 35 pts, rending, WS5, 1-5 squad size.
- Heavy Destroyers AP1
- Monolith - ~260 pts, no change.
- Tomb Spyder - 3 wounds, WS 4, Res Orb, no wounds from scarab generation increase to 70 pts.

C-girl.

shayvaanhto
16-11-2009, 15:47
Hi all!

During the last round of rumors (before Harry axed them :D ), I was playtesting a little fandex that I had created (beginging with the rumors of the time). One of the first things I noticed was that FNP was just a bit OP in CC (made it much more difficult to actually kill them there, without power weapons).

I did change WBB to have the same restrictions as FNP, but also changed it so that it no longer required another model within 6" (never understood the reason for that one :confused:)

I DO like the idea of reducing the WS of the warrior (and actually all the non CC crons) as they should be more shooty.

In line with that, I don't like the idea of reducing BS as crons, unless it is part of a massive reduction of ability and points to make them more of a horde army.

Personally, when they were writing the codex, I don't think they ever made up their mids which kind of army this is, Horde or Elite. :chrome:

megatrons2nd
16-11-2009, 16:19
In line with that, I don't like the idea of reducing BS as crons, unless it is part of a massive reduction of ability and points to make them more of a horde army.

Personally, when they were writing the codex, I don't think they ever made up their mids which kind of army this is, Horde or Elite. :chrome:

I wonder if they will be a bit of both. Maybe up the cost and make WBB count as WoN. Then they wouldn't need to make a FNP roll and Phase Out would be used for squads that are falling back and can't regroup.

Dasqueek-Master Assassin
16-11-2009, 16:42
Something needs to be done to simplify WBB. I love it, and they have always had it, and its ultra fluffy, but its just to complicated in alot of situations.

Maybe FNP+ WON for warriors
but something must be done to change it

megatrons2nd
16-11-2009, 17:44
If you give both FNP and WoN the cost per model would be astronomical. They would make Wraithguard look cheap in comparison. It would have to be one or the other to be balanced and usable(unless they got all 2's for stats).

VanirX
16-11-2009, 18:23
Make the C'tan for apoc games only with boosted stats, the awakening of one of the other C'tan that are still sleeping. Mayby the Outsider?

I remember reading a long time ago about having 3 unique Necron lords (to replace the C'tan in normal games)? A gold, silver and bronze ones? I think that would be a great idea but instead of calling them Necron lords, why not call them Necron Overlords?

Lord Damocles
16-11-2009, 18:54
Make the C'tan for apoc games only with boosted stats, the awakening of one of the other C'tan that are still sleeping. Mayby the Outsider?
The problem with 'awakening' (as far as we know the Outsider is up and about to some extent already) another C'tan is that the 40Kverse is perpetually stuck in 999.M41. Adding one of the two remaining C'tan would require either a move into M42, some more squashed in timeline fidling, or some sort of retcon.


I remember reading a long time ago about having 3 unique Necron lords (to replace the C'tan in normal games)? A gold, silver and bronze ones? I think that would be a great idea but instead of calling them Necron lords, why not call them Necron Overlords?
The Overlord is already something else (ref: Hellforged).

I also struggle to see the point (from a background perspective at least) in splitting Lords into three categories. As far as we know, Lords move between 'grades' without necessarily changing their weapons/abilities etc.


I could see Lords and Destroyer Lords being seperated in order to make one more of a supporting character, and the other more agressive though.

CrownAxe
16-11-2009, 19:03
The fluff for tiered lords comes from other renditions of necrons, idk which exactly. Probably Apoc, BL or DoW

Lord Damocles
16-11-2009, 19:09
I know. It's in the Aocalypse rulebook. But as I said above, that same background has Lords moving between 'tiers', so the arguement that there are distinct gold, silver, and bronze Lords is a flawed one.

(Usual disclaimer: There *might* be a clear distinction between different tiers of Lord, but background-wise there is currently little support for it)

Bonzai
16-11-2009, 22:54
My wish listing....

General Army wide corrections

1. Phase out is removed.

2. Gauss is fixed back to where it was.

3. Upgrade Disruption fields to rending.

HQ's

1. A cheaper option needs to be introduced. Like an upgraded Pariah, or tomb Spyder. Something that can cost about 70 points out of the box.

2. IF the C'tan are removed, and replaced by Lord versions, then we need to see the other 2 C'tan represented.

3. We need a Wraith lord please!

Immortals: Good as is.

Pariahs

1. Allow them to teleport like other Necron infantry.

2. Give them 1 more attack.

Flayed Ones

1. Change them into a troop choice.

2. See the disruption field upgrade.

Wraiths

1. Increase squad size to 6.

2. Allow them to take disruption fields (see disruption field upgrade).

Destroyers: Great as is.

Scarabs: Allow scarabs to become a non-scoring troop choice.

Tomb Spyder

1. Let them choose which type of scarabs they can make.

Heavy Destroyer

1. Give them either another wound, another shot, or AP1. One of those upgrades should do the trick.

2. Monolith

1. Hate to say it, but a slight points increase might be fair.

2. See Pariah suggestions.

New units

1. Flayed ones and Scarabs become troop choices.

2. A repair scarab is introduced. Like scarabs, but with fewer attacks, and causes all WBB rolls within 12 to be made on a 3+.

3. A new Elite unit/ Walker/MC. This unit would be tough, and have a flamer.

4. Obelisk: AV 12 on all sides, stationary vehicle that can deep strike like a drop pod (except rises from the ground). Also functions like a teleport homing beacon.

Wargear

1. Wraith body for the lords.

2. Upgrade the Solar Pulse to a 60 point piece of wargear, and make it usable every round instead of once.

3. A flamer weapon option for the lords.

4. More orbs. A Lord can only have one Orb at a time.

A. Chronal Orb: All units that the Lord is attached to have their Initiative increased to 4, or by 1, which ever is higher.


Those are some of my ideas.

ReveredChaplainDrake
16-11-2009, 22:59
my ideal Necron special rule list:

-Gauss: All weapons can glance or wound on a 6, regardless of Toughness or armor. All weapons that hit on a 6 will have AP1.

-Feel No Pain (say what you like, but Necrons would not suck in combat half as bad if they had this; if you must have WBB, make it coincide with the changes to FNP)

-Stubborn (Necrons shouldn't necessarily be bad in combat. They should be tough everywhere, but just not very smart.)

-Slow and Purposeful (kind of obvious; also lets the Necrons shuffle around more before they shoot)

-Phase Out (replaces "Phase Out"): At the end of the turn, If there is a Monolith within 24" of a unit, that unit may automatically remove themselves from the table and deep strike them within 6" of the Monolith (no scatter). If there is no Monolith within 24", the unit may remove itself from the table and will move on from the board edge during the next turn. (If there is no next turn, the unit will count as destroyed.) Necrons can remove themselves from CC, and after this, if there is no friendly unit left in CC, the remaining enemies get a D6" massacre move.

I think Necron Warriors should be about BS3 (Immortals & Lords BS4 / Pariahs BS5), but about 14 pts / model or less. As an army, they seem like hordes of tough models that just aren't very bright. Think like the exact opposite of Eldar.

Arakanis
17-11-2009, 00:30
3. We need a Wraith lord please!

Hey! No stealing from the Eldar! Bad Necrontyr! :D



1. Phase out is removed.


2. Followed shortly by game balance. :rolleyes:

SirSnipes
17-11-2009, 00:52
i like the idea of if swept you simply remove the unit and it reenters froms reserves with DS

BigK
17-11-2009, 02:28
Haven't read through everything so hope some of tese haven't been discussed already

-Necron Walker

-Wraiths with more than one wound - 41 points for a single wound model ain't very good

-More models with the Necrons rule, why don't phariohs have it?

-More HQ choices that aren't special characters.

-More choices in terms of guns, this is a shooty army, fair enough that's fine, but unlike Tau Cron guns lack variety and some serious hitting power, our only real chance of actually killing anything tough relies on us keeping 1 wound heavy destroyers alive.

-Cheaper Destroyers/Heavy Destroyers - A destroyer is basically weaker than 3 ork with big shooters and 17 points more expensive

- The ability to upgrade /take variants of the Monolith, tayloring it to suit your army. Start with a 150 point base Monolith, weaker than the current one, then being able to upgarde it up to the value 100 points.

shayvaanhto
17-11-2009, 02:28
My wishlisting :chrome:

1) reduce WS of non CC necrons to 3.

2) improve I to 3 on non CC necrons (to give small possibility of surviving being swept).

3) remove phase out (no other army has a negative army-wide rule, even when, like nurgle daemons, they have FNP)

4) replace current C'tan with "insane lords" (see rule book fluff), which will allow other C'tan to be presented, even ones that were destroyed by Nightbringer or other C'tan.

5) either change gauss to a) rending, b)auto wound/glance on 6 with AP 1, or c) give them heavy weapon options in squads.

6) in line with 4, make the "real" C'tan apoc units on par with BIG titans.

7) make WBB with same limits as FNP and remove "needs another model of same type" restriction. (have playtested FNP many times, makes crons to difficult in CC).

8) make army stubborn. (Lets face it if I had a metal body and knew that even if I "died" that I would be reassembled, either on the field or back in the tomb, making me run would be incredibly dificult).

9) change res orb to be +1 to WBB, but only for any unit that has it.

10) make living metal a 4+ invuln save.

Arakanis
17-11-2009, 03:10
-Wraiths with more than one wound - 41 points for a single wound model ain't very good Actually, that's about how much Terminators cost. And they only have one wound.



-More models with the Necrons rule, why don't phariohs have it? Um... because they are NOT Necrons? They're humans with the pariah gene who have been modified for the C'tans purposes... this is in their fluff. :rolleyes:



-More choices in terms of guns, this is a shooty army, fair enough that's fine, but unlike Tau Cron guns lack variety and some serious hitting power, our only real chance of actually killing anything tough relies on us keeping 1 wound heavy destroyers alive. You're NOT a shooty army. You're a "keeps on ticking" army. You're supposed to out attrition the enemy, not outshoot them. We don't need ANOTHER army with powerful fancy guns. The simplicity of Gauss weapons is fine.



- The ability to upgrade /take variants of the Monolith, tayloring it to suit your army. Start with a 150 point base Monolith, weaker than the current one, then being able to upgarde it up to the value 100 points.
I like this idea, but don't make it a monolith. Leave the monolith as the monolith and introduce a scalable secondary vehicle of some sort.

Also, I understand that everyone wants Phase Out to be gone. It really cannot be. Everything about the Necrons as they are, is balanced to make Phase Out their one big weakness. If you remove Phase Out the prices are just going to go up. Also, Necrons don't need Initiative above 2. Make them Fearless. End of story.

tacoo
17-11-2009, 04:39
Ok here is my thoughts
Basic necron rules
-ether SnP, or relentless but not able to run. i like the second option since everytime i read stuff about them, warriors have the same pace.

-WBB: at the end of each phase, before casaulitys are counted, all necron models that lost there final wound to anything that is not ap 1/2, causes instant death, or powerweapons, may make a WBB roll. on a roll of a 4+ that model may join any unit within 12" that is the same unit type as this model(warrior may only join warriors, wraiths may only join wraiths). after this count haw many models were still dead and then test for morall if needed. 9ex say a unit of 20 warriors lost a combat by 5 wounds, first you roll for WBB and say 3 got up. After that you would re tally how many you lost combat by now, wich is 2. then take your LD test at -2 and not -50)
--edit to make more sense. i like this solution since it removes the need for fearless or stubborn, but still makes them less likly to fall apart in melee

Living Metal
-ether make it act like holofields, and give immunity to lance or immunity to lance and a 4+ invuln. by lance i also means anything else that may function like lance also.

Lords
-at least 2 types, 1 more combat orientated and one that more global improvement orientated. i like the idea of a commander that helps the army overall more then one that is just a expensive combat character

Gauss
-on a roll of 6 weapons with gauss always cause a wound. against vechicles it causes a automatic penatrating hit with a +1 on the vechicle damage chart.

Ctan
-represent as favored lords or somtin. personally though i would just like to see them thrown into Apoc and in normal games just give global bonuses to the army
examples are this
-Void dragon
-gives global +1T, gauss counts as ap1 against infantry on a roll of 6, weapons on vechicles count as TLed

-Deceiver
may redeploy d3+2 units after both armies are set up, but before infiltrators. reroll reserves and seize the Inative. maybe somtin else

-Outsider
tough one here, not alot of fluff i could find involving him but maybe all lord may roll on the below chart and apilly the result to a unit within so many inches? not to sure though

1-2 unit retains its sanity

3 unit goes insane, may not move or shoot till the next necron turn, but gain ferless

4 unit looses its mind and sees all as there enemy, and counts as assulting any unit within 6 inches, but gains furious charge. if no unit is within range, then the unit attacks its self, resolve all hits and wounds as if striking a exactly similar unit, .

5 unit commits suicide, remove the unit as a casulty, with no points awwarded

6 the Unit is cunfused by the outsider, and from that point on, the unit is under controll of the necron player

-Night Bringer
-all models in oponents army suffer a -1 to there LD, fearless units must roll for LD as if not fearless, but at LD 10. this may not be effected by losing combat, but maybe effected by thigs like gaze of flame or terrifing visage.


The ctan abilitied would all be expensive though.

Pharias
-dont know here, i beleive they should stay within the 16-40 point margin, but make them worth the points, like perhaps FnP, or a 2+ around 4+ invuln, and/or a +1 to attacks, or make it so they always strike back in combat, sorta like catalyst

wraiths
-powerweapons maybe

flayed ones
-troop chioce, possibly 1 more attack or somtin,

Warriors
-gaus flayers are assault 1 str 4 ap5 24" range gauss
-perhaps a option to be joined by a repair scarab for each 5 warriors in the squad, allows 1 model to reroll WBB

-Scarabs, good as is

-Tomb Spider, drop current ability maybe, give resorb with a 6" increase to range

-destroyer-good, nottin much to change

-heavy destroyer- huge reduction to points, possibly bs5 and a 2+ armour save, and bigger squads.

thats all i have time to explain right now. not sure on outsider ability since it seems way to powerful but besides that i have run thiese changes and the WBB changes is biggest help, it increases your survivabilty alot while keeping a fluffy rule

BigK
17-11-2009, 08:17
Actually, that's about how much Terminators cost. And they only have one wound..

Having had a second look, the points does seem right when you compare them to Terminators one of the better elites in the game.


Um... because they are NOT Necrons? They're humans with the pariah gene who have been modified for the C'tans purposes... this is in their fluff. :rolleyes:.

My bad :(


You're NOT a shooty army. You're a "keeps on ticking" army. You're supposed to out attrition the enemy, not outshoot them. We don't need ANOTHER army with powerful fancy guns. The simplicity of Gauss weapons is fine..

Necrons can't really put a competative CC list together, Tau is the only other army that can't.


I like this idea, but don't make it a monolith. Leave the monolith as the monolith and introduce a scalable secondary vehicle of some sort..

That would work, it needs to be something that can be tooled to be fire support or CC support ect.


Also, I understand that everyone wants Phase Out to be gone. It really cannot be. Everything about the Necrons as they are, is balanced to make Phase Out their one big weakness. If you remove Phase Out the prices are just going to go up. Also, Necrons don't need Initiative above 2. Make them Fearless. End of story.

I don't want phase out gone, I think it's great, don't want it changed to feel no pain either.

I disagree about the nothing above I2, Necrons aren't Orks, I2 works well on Orks, they have large numbers, cheap units ect to go with it. 30 boyz can take a beating and hit back when assualted, you recon 10 immortals, 10 phariahs, 3 wraiths, ect cold take the same beating? I don't hink so, Necrons ain't a cheap horde army which which is where army wide I2 belongs.

SirSnipes
17-11-2009, 12:05
phase out is fun anf fluffy, but we need to fix being swept

TheShadowCow
17-11-2009, 17:21
# Necrons are Fearless.

# Greatly enhanced Necron Lord entry, with your choice of Lord type and level determining the core content of your force and its strategy
- Raider, Harvester, Annihilator types
- Bronze, Silver and Gold levels
- Raider Lord resulting in a faster, scarier Necron list that hits hard (Flayed Ones, Wraiths, Scarabs, Pariahs, teleportation and psychology)
- Harvester Lord resulting in a dangerous but more easily disrupted list that does nasty things with your opponents units after it kills them (Destroyers, Warriors, Abattoir (new vehicle, info below))
- Annihilator Lord resulting in a slower, heavy hitting and all but unstoppable list (Immortals, massed Warriors, Monoliths, Spyders, self repair - the classic phalanx done properly)
- Bronze, Silver and Gold Lords (stats, wargear allowance and costs increasing with rank) determining whether you have access to the more esoteric wargear, unit options and number of more potent units you can field (e.g. one Monolith for a Bronze Annihilator, three for a Gold Annihilator)

# We'll Be Back replaced with Feel No Pain for simplicity. Resurrection Orb and Tomb Spyders opting to enhance self-repair for that turn (see below) allow Feel No Pain to be taken regardless). Note that for units such as lone Heavy Destroyers or Wraiths that are easily wiped out, this is a large boost to survivability.

# Phase Out left as-is, but increasing levels of Necron Lord will alter the %age at which is occurs (Bronze = 25%, Silver = 15%, Gold = 10%)

# C'Tan removed from the list as stand-alone characters, but instead their "Touch" can be taken as an item of Wargear by Necron Lords of a certain level (Gold only?) allowing the Necron Lord to assume the guise of the C'Tan for a length of time (1 turn, and then 1 additional turn on a 4+?)

# Flayed Ones gain Fleet and reduce the Leadership of units they are in combat with by -2 (Terrifying Visage), otherwise as-is. Note, Raider Lords allow Flayed Ones to be taken as Troops as well as Elites

# Pariahs, gain Feel No Pain but cannot benefit from Resurrection Orbs and Tomb Spyders, increased WS, I and A by 1 respectively

# Wraiths, changed significantly in functionality, now units of 1-3 but move as individuals, have Terrifying Visage (see Flayed Ones) and when killed are placed in reserve to represent them fading away only to re-appear at a safe-distance to resume their attacks. Only the first kill of each Wraith count for victory purposes. Designer note; this gives the Necron list a scary, versatile unit able to harass throughout the game and to bring psychology to bear more widely.

# Scarabs, 15 points per base, Disruption Fields as standard and cause melee attacks to use the Gauss rules

# Immortals, Warriors, Destroyers, Heavy Destroyers and Monoliths, as-is, bar the new Gauss rules

# Tomb Spyders, also now choose one of several activities to perform at the start of each Necron turn instead of doing all of them automatically, lasting until the beginning of the next Necron turn; i) enhance Feel No Pain (see above), ii) create D3 Scarab bases (that cannot act until the next turn), iii) repair an Immobilized or Weapon Destroyed result on a Necron vehicle

# Necron Abatoir, new Heavy Support vehicle (12/12/12 Living Metal, Ponderous Skimmer etc as per the Monolith). A mobile matter-to-energy conversion unit that transforms matter harvested by the Necrons through the Gauss effect (Gauss shooting, Disruption Fields in melee) into energy charges that the Necron forces can use to empower themselves and to strike back at the opponent.

How it works; Every *5* infantry/bikes/jump-infantry and/or every *1* monstrous creature/vehicle destroyed by a weapon/attack using the Gauss rule generates 1 Energy Charge to be used by the Abattoir (if multiple Abattoirs are present, designate one to receive that Charge). Charges can be stored for any length of time, but are expended when used. At the start of each Necron turn, the Necron player may declare that he/she is going to use one or more Energy Charges for one or more things (multiple actions can be made, but only one may be a shooting attack, see list). Energy Charges can be used to; i) increase the Gauss rating of all weapons within unit within 24" by 1 (see below) for the duration of that turn, ii) have the Abattoir fire either a Heavy Gauss Cannon-effect or a Gauss Cannon effect at a unit, iii) give a Necron unit within 24" the Fleet special rule (if it does not already have it) and increase its Initiative by 2 for that turn, iv) repair a Weapon Destroyed or Immobilized result on a Necron vehicle within 24", v) generate an energy shield around the Abattoir for that turn, granting it a 4+ Cover Save.

# Replace the Gauss rule with the following;

Gauss Weapons now have a "Gauss Rating" for each hit they score on a target (Gauss Flayer = 1, Gauss Blaster = 1, Gauss Cannon = 2, Heavy Gauss Cannon = 5, Disruption Fields = 1). After a unit has rolled to hit with all of its Gauss weapons, calculate the total Gauss Rating that the unit has amassed and consult the following table - additional effects will occur as the massive Gauss Field strips away the atomic structure of the unfortunate target.

Gauss Rating 5+ = an additional D3 automatic Wounds are inflicted (Armour/Cover saves may be taken as normal), vehicles suffer an automatic Glancing hit
Gauss Rating 10+ = an additional 2D3 automatic Wounds are inflicted (Armour/Cover saves may be taken as normal), vehicles suffer an automatic Penetrating hit
Gauss Rating 15+ = an additional 3D3 automatic Wounds are inflicted (Armour/Cover saves may *not* be taken as normal), vehicles suffer D3 automatic Penetrating hits

Designers note; I've thought long and hard about this over the years. Necron Gauss weaponry is supposed to be "special" in that it a) kills you in an interesting way and b) is supposed to be deadly no matter who/what you are because of how it kills you. Now, one way of representing that is just to say "oh, Gauss Weaponry = Rending", but honestly that's kind of boring. I feel that this idea is ultimately not that complicated (you just count the number of hits a unit inflicts with what weapons, calculate the rating and look at a very simple table) and conjures a wonderful image of a Necron unit literally bathing their prey in green lightning, to the extent that the unfortunates are washed away under a sufficiently large onslaught.

PLR
17-11-2009, 17:28
For Phase out to remain each Necron has to be a minimum of 25% better than an equivalent model from another list.

Let's Take a 15 point Grey Hunter:
- Bolter
- Bolt Pistol
- Close Combat Weapon
- Frag Grenades
- Krak Grenades
- ATSKNF
- Counter Attack
- Acute Senses
- Plus special Weapon options
- Plus Higher Initiative
- Plus Transport Options
- Min 5 man Units

Balance that to a Necron Warrior with Phase out and the Necron should be 10 points...

Lord Damocles
17-11-2009, 18:32
For Phase out to remain each Necron has to be a minimum of 25% better than an equivalent model from another list.
Points costs are balanced within codexes though - not just between roughly equivalent units in other codexes.

I agree that Warriors are perhaps slightly too expensive, and Grey Hunters are possibly a little cheap as it stands, but you can't just compare units across codexes.


EDIT: And besides, Warriors actually have some advantages over Grey Hunters which I notice weren't mentioned there...

PLR
17-11-2009, 18:46
For sure, I didn't bother to list the warrior advantages (WWB and Gauss) since everyone knows them.

Of course using SW since they are the newest codex out, the other items to Balance out Grey Hunters just makes them even better. What balances Necron Warriors???

Phase out is ancient rule that no longer balances anything.
And in 5th edition where a single 6 point model can technically win the game having 25%+ of your army (gotta remember everything that doesn;t count for PO) just leave the table is brutal. So if it stays Necrons need to be a power house and costed appropriately to compete.

Jackmojo
17-11-2009, 21:25
Personally phase out in its current incarnation is a bad rule, as PLR noted its intended to allow for necrons to be better then their cost indicates, but that's never worked very well (BFG necrons have an equally odd mechanic for the same goal). It ought to be kept conceptually but completely revamped ruleswise, perhaps something along the lines of units lost to sweeping advance are instead put into reserve and reenter play via deepstrike (which would go well with most necron units acting as locator beacons to mimic the old 'teleport to a different unit' effect of WBB). This would also grant them blanket immunity to one of the most dangerous rules in 5th edition (sweeping advance) helping to once again cement them as the toughest army.

Jack

CthulhuDalek
18-11-2009, 00:40
Personally phase out in its current incarnation is a bad rule, as PLR noted its intended to allow for necrons to be better then their cost indicates, but that's never worked very well (BFG necrons have an equally odd mechanic for the same goal). It ought to be kept conceptually but completely revamped ruleswise, perhaps something along the lines of units lost to sweeping advance are instead put into reserve and reenter play via deepstrike (which would go well with most necron units acting as locator beacons to mimic the old 'teleport to a different unit' effect of WBB). This would also grant them blanket immunity to one of the most dangerous rules in 5th edition (sweeping advance) helping to once again cement them as the toughest army.

Jack

In my opinion this is slightly flawed -- Necrons should not get the ability to come back after being wiped out from No Retreat unless the basic warrior's stats sucked even harder than some of the proposed nerfs. They would already be the toughest basic infantry in the game(with proposed t5, 4+ save, Feel No Pain) not including plague marines because they have a natural toughness of 4. Ideally a necron warrior would be cheaper than a plague marine but more expensive than a standard tac marine/grey hunter.

Their ability to teleport should be reflected through reserves, and possibly allowing units to leave the table with other special rules. Phase Out should be the ONE major weakness of necron forces:
1. You must beat them in hth.
2. They must fail their stubborn(under my proposed) ld. 8-9 test.
3. They need to roll for falling back(this would, imo be at initiative one, to make them more likely to fail than not, which considering their toughness and offensive capabilities in shooting, will be a good balance.) We simply call this phase out -- Phase Out: Necrons are stubborn, and have Intractable.

Jackmojo
18-11-2009, 01:32
I don't want to see sweeping advance be the way to beat them, as that's not a viable option for several armies. And while my suggestion leaves them immune to casualties caused by sweeping advance or no retreat, it still knocks them off the table which in objective games is an interesting problem to have to overcome for both players and in the annihilation it leaves them at risk of being counted as dead at end game, but gives the Necron player a chance to attempt to preserve the remnants of otherwise broken units.

You seem to be in favor of keeping phase out roughly as it is now and having Necrons be better then they ought (as priced) be, I disagree with that premise as I think it causes balance issues (like the Necrons are experiencing now) which can make them an less fun army to play with/against.

Jack

CthulhuDalek
18-11-2009, 05:27
I don't want to see sweeping advance be the way to beat them, as that's not a viable option for several armies. And while my suggestion leaves them immune to casualties caused by sweeping advance or no retreat, it still knocks them off the table which in objective games is an interesting problem to have to overcome for both players and in the annihilation it leaves them at risk of being counted as dead at end game, but gives the Necron player a chance to attempt to preserve the remnants of otherwise broken units.

You seem to be in favor of keeping phase out roughly as it is now and having Necrons be better then they ought (as priced) be, I disagree with that premise as I think it causes balance issues (like the Necrons are experiencing now) which can make them an less fun army to play with/against.

Jack

No, I'd get rid of the normal phase out rule entirely. The whole rule for phase out would be that necrons' leadership is never modified, and that they pass leadership tests caused by pinning and losing casualties. That's all. Phase out would be the fact that necrons will be run down by most units.

I think it REALLY doesn't make sense to let them come back, because for necron units that die and come back they are essentually worth have their points. They aren't like gaunts where they'll be dropping like flies, they will be hard to kill -- then deepstrike back in, shoot things to death and not die... again. Hardly fair in comparison to gaunts who die easily to bolters.

And it isn't really that much of a risk for them being dead at the end of the game, anyway.

Jackmojo
18-11-2009, 07:20
No, I'd get rid of the normal phase out rule entirely. The whole rule for phase out would be that necrons' leadership is never modified, and that they pass leadership tests caused by pinning and losing casualties. That's all. Phase out would be the fact that necrons will be run down by most units.

OK, I follow now. I disagree primarily because I feel like the last thing we need to add is another army who borders on fearless. I'd prefer the Necrons to be actually hard to kill rather then just hard to beat/break.



I think it REALLY doesn't make sense to let them come back, because for necron units that die and come back they are essentually worth have their points. They aren't like gaunts where they'll be dropping like flies, they will be hard to kill -- then deepstrike back in, shoot things to death and not die... again. Hardly fair in comparison to gaunts who die easily to bolters.

I'm not sure we're on the same page here, I'm not suggesting a version of Without Number/Send in the Next Wave, I mean that the surviving necrons, who would have otherwise been automatic casualties via sweeping advance (although without an initiative check) phase out and come back in later, any casualties remain as such and the unit is the same unit it began as (so only ever worth one Kill Point, etc..). This would allow us a tabletop realization of the Necrons ghostly teleportation and fast reorganization.

Jack

SirSnipes
18-11-2009, 12:27
i like that idea, but i prefer all those that would be swept simplydisapear( as running is logical) and DS from reserves later

Xelloss
18-11-2009, 12:35
i like that idea, but i prefer all those that would be swept simplydisapear( as running is logical) and DS from reserves later
That could be fine if they take some casualties doing so (maybe a WBB - or what would replace it - test on each mini of the unit, survivors form the DS unit). They will still be more useful than if they came from table's edge, but the opposing player should be rewarded for sweeping them if that don't destroy them.

CthulhuDalek
18-11-2009, 19:27
Then there is basically no reason to engage necrons in hand to hand.

Every army has their weakness, orginally the normal phase out was a pretty good weakness, but 5th edition made it easier to achieve that goal for the opponent, and now phase out is too dramatic.

It doesn't need to become a benefit, because the rest of the list will still be becoming harder, more resilient, however you want to look at it -- but it should be less of a weakness.

Also, if any army should be fearless it is necrons, but that's why I've proposed my version of phase out. It's difficult to make them flee -- unless the circumstances are so drastic that the necrons themselves are overwhelmed and need to retreat to their tomb. This is what Sweeping Advance is good for representing. They have literally been torn to pieces with little chance of being rebuilt *any time soon* and so they leave the battle for now.

Jackmojo
18-11-2009, 22:09
i like that idea, but i prefer all those that would be swept simply disapear (as running is logical) and DS from reserves later

That's exactly what I was suggesting, my apologies if I communicated it poorly.


Then there is basically no reason to engage necrons in hand to hand.

Same reason as engaging a tough (read: good save) fearless or ATSKNF unit, to inflict casualties, assault focused units are still going to be better off charging them then engaging in a firefight the Necrons are better at.


Every army has their weakness, orginally the normal phase out was a pretty good weakness, but 5th edition made it easier to achieve that goal for the opponent, and now phase out is too dramatic.

I agree that 5th has broken phase out pretty badly, but I don't particularly think is was all that fantastic a rule to being with.


It doesn't need to become a benefit, because the rest of the list will still be becoming harder, more resilient, however you want to look at it -- but it should be less of a weakness.

I'm seeing my suggestion as more of a double edged sword, it still lets enemies boot them off objectives via assault, unlike fearless units, its just gives them a second chance with whatever is left of the unit.


Also, if any army should be fearless it is necrons, but that's why I've proposed my version of phase out. It's difficult to make them flee -- unless the circumstances are so drastic that the necrons themselves are overwhelmed and need to retreat to their tomb. This is what Sweeping Advance is good for representing. They have literally been torn to pieces with little chance of being rebuilt *any time soon* and so they leave the battle for now.

I'm actually all in favor of them being stubborn relatively easily (although as I posted originally I like this being a Lord effect, so that warriors can be kept slightly cheaper as well as encouraging a "phalanx/vanguard around the leader" style of play) and maintaining their leadership of 10, which I tihnk combined with what I'm suggesting represent their 'fearlessness, coupled with cold calculation' better and more importantly, in a more fun fashion on the tabletop.

Jack

Solar_Eclipse
18-11-2009, 23:54
Mines abit Radical but here is what i would do to the Necron Warrior, You could imagine how the rest of the army would look from this:

Ws- 3
Bs- 4
S-3
T-3
W-1
In-2
At-1
Ld- 8
Sv- 4+

Unit: 10-20
points: 12
Equipment: Gauss Flayer (Range: 24" S4 Ap5 Rapid Fire, Rending)
Special Rules: Feel no pain, relentless, Cannot Run

Emergency Teleport (When a Necron unit fails its Ld test, it is immediately removed from the table and then appears with the deep strike rule (without scattering) within 6" of the closest Lord, Tomb Spyder or Monolith. If none of these models are alive, the Necron unit is removed from the table). It then Immediately regroups.

So yeah, incredibly cheap and massable, and built around moving forward and firing the whole time with very powerful guns.

Now they are still Tough, Toughness 3, 4+ save and Feel no pain gives them some pretty powerful resistance to most gunfire, but it reduces the number of MEQ armies in the game which is always a good thing and means that you can be closer to the fluff by having more of them on the field.

The Emergency Teleport is a way of recreating Phase Out without gimping the army, and the lord could have something tactical like having in an in built special rule allowing him to fail a Ld test so he and his squad could teleport somewhere else on the field immediately.

I imagine many people would be against this sort of Necron army, but i think i would prefer it.

Reflex
19-11-2009, 02:44
Mines abit Radical but here is what i would do to the Necron Warrior, You could imagine how the rest of the army would look from this:

Ws- 3
Bs- 4
S-3
T-3
W-1
In-2
At-1
Ld- 8
Sv- 4+

Unit: 10-20
points: 12
Equipment: Gauss Flayer (Range: 24" S4 Ap5 Rapid Fire, Rending)
Special Rules: Feel no pain, relentless, Cannot Run

Emergency Teleport (When a Necron unit fails its Ld test, it is immediately removed from the table and then appears with the deep strike rule (without scattering) within 6" of the closest Lord, Tomb Spyder or Monolith. If none of these models are alive, the Necron unit is removed from the table). It then Immediately regroups.

So yeah, incredibly cheap and massable, and built around moving forward and firing the whole time with very powerful guns.

Now they are still Tough, Toughness 3, 4+ save and Feel no pain gives them some pretty powerful resistance to most gunfire, but it reduces the number of MEQ armies in the game which is always a good thing and means that you can be closer to the fluff by having more of them on the field.

The Emergency Teleport is a way of recreating Phase Out without gimping the army, and the lord could have something tactical like having in an in built special rule allowing him to fail a Ld test so he and his squad could teleport somewhere else on the field immediately.

I imagine many people would be against this sort of Necron army, but i think i would prefer it.


... I actually like this....

it would give the army a more horde feel. although, maybe t4 to help keep in with them being robotic, soulless and living metal, however they do need a grenade mechanism to aid them. i also like the teleporting idea. it stops them from the fail's that is sweeping advance and it would create a use for tomb spiders and would make me think twice about bringing a monolith.

this is different and i like. although, i think the elite units in the army should follow a similar fashion, so maybe immortals and destroyers could be S4 and T5 etc. it keeps in with the army being defensively though, but not so offensively tough. i like this.

it would keep them cheap (not necessarily 12 points, i'd pay more for this) and give the necrons less of a MEQ feel, create another horde style army (lets face it, say you pay 12-15pts for that and warriors are no longer the poop of sweeping advances, a squad of 20 seems almost logical)...

SirSnipes
19-11-2009, 03:04
say hello to mass removal of crons through instant death, s6+ blasts

Jackmojo
19-11-2009, 03:51
say hello to mass removal of crons through instant death, s6+ blasts

Indeed IG would eat them alive, a couple battalions of Griffons could end the necron threat forever.

That being said, your list is very similar to mine on the first page, I just went uber tough elites robots versus your horde of advancing zombies.

Jack

Solar_Eclipse
19-11-2009, 10:54
it would give the army a more horde feel. although, maybe t4 to help keep in with them being robotic, soulless and living metal, however they do need a grenade mechanism to aid them. i also like the teleporting idea. it stops them from the fail's that is sweeping advance and it would create a use for tomb spiders and would make me think twice about bringing a monolith.

I dont want them to be T4 because the game already has a T4 Horde army.

Grenades are eh, since i would only give it to dedicated Assaulters.


this is different and i like. although, i think the elite units in the army should follow a similar fashion, so maybe immortals and destroyers could be S4 and T5 etc. it keeps in with the army being defensively though, but not so offensively tough. i like this.


Immortals are just tough Necron warriors, hell maybe even make them an Upgrade of the warrior squad, for those who want them to be really tough and few.


say hello to mass removal of crons through instant death, s6+ blasts


Oh well, They should have the numbers to deal with it.

Really, all armies have to deal with S6 Large blasts in some way, Necrons can too.

I like Marines being the Tough ones, it gives them more of an Elite feel, rather than the generic one they have now. You just need to restrict the stats more.

Necrons are given a very over the top view of their toughness and ability, one which i think is a detriment.

Souleater
19-11-2009, 13:19
necrons should be over the top tough. They are self-repairing robots from beyond the dawn of time.

They should be tougher to put down than a flesh and blood space marine. I would certainly be against them being more hordey.

I put it to you that SM feel generic because they are so very widely played. If they were less popular you would probably be able to appreciate just how tough they are compared to other armies. I know that I do when I take a break from my Nids or DE.

I'd like to see the Necron be an elite MSU force. GW can make the unit types look very different since the Crons can sculpt and design their bodies any way they chose. Cyber-panthers with back mounted tentecles, Functional robots like the tombspyder, beautifully scultped works of art for Pariahs to indicate their special nature....the list goes on.

With regard to Sweeping Advance: I agree that Necrons should have a weakness to something but with the way combat resolution works atm it is too big a weakness. Making them Stubborn or allowing WBB rolls for models that are sweapt would I believe be enough of a fix - Crons will still get beaten in CC more often than not.

Arakanis
19-11-2009, 13:50
Seriously though, what about Fearless? I really think that could fix the whole Sweeping Advance weakness, I mean, sure they'll have to take No Retreat Saves, but with a 3+ Armour save (maybe 4+) and WBB it's not like that'll really stop them. I don't get why Necrons should ever "Fall back" even tactically, if they need to get out of there, they have Portals and Phase Out for that.

And lets face it, Phase Out is the counter balance for Necrons. It's why they get to be so bloody good. I think right now, everyone is thinking Phase Out is too much of a detriment and it has to go, and they're saying that because of 5th Ed Combat res. If I had tried to tell you that Phase Out was unfair and had to be crossed out in 4th Ed you'd have told me to beat it. And rightly so, Necrons are crazy powerful as is, sweeping advance weakness not withstanding.

Unless you want WBB removed, severely weakened, points up or stats down Phase Out has to stay. It's the only fair balancing rule for all the Living Metal Self-Repair Teleporting Shenanigans.

Oh, and that said, some units need to remain without the "Necron" rule, so long as Phase Out is calculated by "Necron models" because it keeps you from fielding triple monoliths and laughing at everyone while you proceed to never die and always win.

oCoYoRoAoKo
19-11-2009, 14:05
My Wishlist:

Necron Statline:

Ws- 3
Bs- 4
S-4
T-5
W-1
In-2
At-1
Ld- 10
Sv- 4+

Equipment: Gauss Flayer (Range: 24" S4 Ap5 Rapid Fire, Gauss)
Special Rules: Feel no pain, Slow But Purposeful

I think this offers a nice mix of defensive ability with shooty goodness. Gauss rule would change to 'always glances on a 6 with a +1 on the table'. The Slow But Purposeful is there to encourage the use of the following new Vehicle:

Necron Portal (100 points)

AV (Front): 12
AV (Side): 12
AV (Rear): 12

Equipment: Gauss Cannon
Special Rules: Power Matrix, Deepstrike, Immobile, Living Metal

The power Matrix acts as a monolith's but only for teleporting (so no particle whip). The idea is that they would be 1-3 per choice and act as drop-pods so they would be an alternative to the monolith allowing the player to form a 'teleport web' on the battlefield.

More lord options altering the FO chart (so single unit of destroyers troops if destroyer lord, wraiths if wraithlord, etc).

Apart from that, all the usual things ~ Better parias/flayed ones etc.

Cy.

Solar_Eclipse
19-11-2009, 14:23
necrons should be over the top tough. They are self-repairing robots from beyond the dawn of time.

They should be tougher to put down than a flesh and blood space marine. I would certainly be against them being more hordey.

Consider something for a moment.

A marine is hit by an impact, the armour spreads out the blow, it recoils, the padding slows down the impact and then the spongy flesh also spreads out the blow and recoils.

When a Necron is hit with an impact, he doesnt have a crumple zone, he doesnt have padding to spread out the damage. He takes the full force of the impact on that one spot.

Being a sturdy robot is actually a bad thing, not a good one.


I put it to you that SM feel generic because they are so very widely played. If they were less popular you would probably be able to appreciate just how tough they are compared to other armies. I know that I do when I take a break from my Nids or DE.

Well i hardly play 40k anymore, but i dont play marines often when i do. Problem is that its just that Necrons, Chaos, Marines and all their little permutations are all so similar.


I'd like to see the Necron be an elite MSU force. GW can make the unit types look very different since the Crons can sculpt and design their bodies any way they chose. Cyber-panthers with back mounted tentecles, Functional robots like the tombspyder, beautifully scultped works of art for Pariahs to indicate their special nature....the list goes on.

Unfortunately the background doesnt support this, it supports the horde of enemies.

Also, ill just say it now, im a guard player and i want more Toughness 3 enemies. Lasguns should be worth it, dammit. When more than 50% of your enemies have 3+ saves with To 4 then it just gets dull and tacticless.

Mozzamanx
19-11-2009, 14:45
It's strange to see such a gulf between peoples impression- Super elite technodeath, or horde of metal undead.
Personally, I would go ultra-elite, to around 25pts per Warrior. I would love to see each Necron as a horrifyingly powerful monster from the dawn of time.

We'll be back- Basically unchanged, except it happens at the end of each phase. In addition, if a unit is caught fails a morale check, it is immediately removed from the board and placed in reserves, and must reenter via Deep Strike or a Monolith/other portals.
Warrior- WS3, BS4, S4, T5, I2, A1, W1, Ld10, 4+. 26pts per model.
Gauss Flayer- Range 24, S4, Rapid Fire, Rending. If you roll a 6 to wound, the shot also ignores Cover saves.
Phalanx- Warriors are Relentless. However, they may not choose to run.

Madgear Thundaklutch
19-11-2009, 15:05
I'd like to see a wraith-bodied lord allow wraiths as scoring, bigger wraith sized units, maybe 1-5, wraiths get rending, and maybe give a free pariah or two for every unit of warriors taken, this keeps your points for your necron models and makes a worthless model actually worth taking :)

creepyal
19-11-2009, 15:21
When a Necron is hit with an impact, he doesnt have a crumple zone, he doesnt have padding to spread out the damage. He takes the full force of the impact on that one spot
You have the right idea but backwards thinking. Do you think a race that has been around since the dawn of time would build machines built out of tin? They are capable of self repair, teleporting, have tanks built out of living metal, and fire weapons that wound on 6 and glances armour on 6 no matter what the toughness and armour. Not to mention two gods that run around with them. I think nothing should have lower than T4 except maybe scarabs. I just hope they do something with pariahs.

Thanatos_elNyx
19-11-2009, 16:58
Pariahs armed with a Staff of Light.
Awesome Short ranged firepower and decent close combat ability.

Wraiths should be the ones with Phase Weapons.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
19-11-2009, 17:29
Consider something for a moment.

A marine is hit by an impact, the armour spreads out the blow, it recoils, the padding slows down the impact and then the spongy flesh also spreads out the blow and recoils.

When a Necron is hit with an impact, he doesnt have a crumple zone, he doesnt have padding to spread out the damage. He takes the full force of the impact on that one spot.

Being a sturdy robot is actually a bad thing, not a good one.

That depends entirely on the material the robot is made out of. The materials the Necrons are built from may well have a crumple zone, or properties that encourage the diffusion of an impact across its entire body. Not every metal behaves like high carbon steel (lightweight but brittle) even in the real world. Much less when we're talking about the oldest race in the galaxy made out of long lost supertechnology.

Also, toughness doesn't take into account body armor. That's what the armor save is for. A Space Marine outside of his power armor, being hit in the chest with a bolter shot, would still test to wound on a T of 4. Armor "spreading out the blow" or any chance that the shot would "recoil" rather then embed itself into his body is all part of that wonderful 3+ save they get.

In case it isn't obvious, I'm firmly in the "Higher Toughness, Worse Armor Save" camp. When you think about what they represent, T5 with a 4+ or even 5+ armor save makes more sense then T4 with a 3+. Plus it means they aren't as close to marines, which is always nice.

Basically, as a guard player you'll want to turn autocannons on Necrons, as they will shred straight through their newly 4+ armor save. Lasguns being ineffectual is hardly anything new, they rely entirely on weight of fire anyway.

theplourde
19-11-2009, 20:21
Necrons <=> Living Metal
Monolith <=> Living Metal

Why oh why would a material capable of brushing off the best anti tank weapons around yield a pitiful 4+ save? T5 and 3+ I say with Immortals gaining a 2+

Necrons should be the elite army of elite armies, the hardest on a per model basis balanced by Phase Out and limited numbers.

creepyal
19-11-2009, 20:30
Why oh why would a material capable of brushing off the best anti tank weapons around yield a pitiful 4+ save? T5 and 3+ I say with Immortals gaining a 2+Necrons should be the elite army of elite armies, the hardest on a per model basis balanced by Phase Out and limited numbers.
I could not agree more.

Put your faith in the Lord, your butt belongs to my destroyer lord.

CrownAxe
19-11-2009, 20:45
Necrons <=> Living Metal
Monolith <=> Living Metal

Why oh why would a material capable of brushing off the best anti tank weapons around yield a pitiful 4+ save? T5 and 3+ I say with Immortals gaining a 2+

This is why instead of T5 4+, i suggest T3 2+. It makes them technically more durable then a T4 3+ (mathhammer wise) while remaining fluffy to being made from living metal and not being a Plague Marine duplicate

Jackmojo
19-11-2009, 21:01
Immortals are just tough Necron warriors, hell maybe even make them an Upgrade of the warrior squad, for those who want them to be really tough and few.

Interesting idea, this could be a good solution, either have immortals as a squad upgrade, or have them as a troops choice so that folks can have either uber-tough robots, or horde of zombie-bots. Rather like the wide choice between veterans and regulars in the IG codex allowing for fairly diverse army types.

Jack

cuda1179
19-11-2009, 21:09
The more I think about faze-out and Sweeping advance the more I think that a simple rule could help Necrons, Stubborn. Phase out is still needed as a balancing factor, but should not be quite the auto-loose for Necron that it seems to be in 5th edition.

I don't want yet another fearless army in 40k, we have too many of those as it is. That being said, it is WAY too easy to take necron out in close combat. If they were made leadership 10, with no way to lower leadership that would go a long way to balancing things. They would still stand a chance to be destroyed in a sweeping advance, but not completely owned by every medeocre hand-to-hand unit in the game. Then let them re-group regardless of squad size.

SirSnipes
19-11-2009, 21:44
t3 2+ save could be really interesting to play with, they are tough and hard to bring down, but damaging them is easy

Solar_Eclipse
19-11-2009, 22:32
But T3 2+ save +WBB or FNP would just be insane.

Remove WBB or FNP and Necron players would complain.

Thats why i like T3 4+ FNP, its basically a armour save of 2.5+

CrownAxe
19-11-2009, 22:38
But T3 2+ save +WBB or FNP would just be insane.

Remove WBB or FNP and Necron players would complain.

Thats why i like T3 4+ FNP, its basically a armour save of 2.5+

no it wouldn't

do the math hammer. 10 RF Bolters vs T3 2+ and MEQ

MEQ (and T5 4+) will take 2.222 wounds

T3 2+ take 1.481 wounds

That's such a small difference. throw in FNP/WBB and the difference is even less (MEQ take 1.11 while T3 2+ takes .7405, thats less then a .4 difference) Plus T3 2+ is fluffy, they're made from living metal which can withstand even armor piercing rounds, why would they get only a 4+ armor?

Cheeslord
19-11-2009, 23:32
OK, complete wishlist but here's my fantsy codex ideas:

WBB:- I don't really know - replace with FNP if you like (massively better for combat resolution)but I prefer a uniquely Necron rule. Maybe downed Necrons are never part of a unit, don't move with it after they're down etc. but Monolith will "suck in" any downed Necrons (same type or troops if teleporting Lord) within 6" of a unit. As FAQd, Orb elegibility when shot, same unit in 6" elegibility when resurrecting (neatly matches with the 6" "suck in" rule so you don't need to ask wether you check before or after teleport. Res Orb allows WBB roll to be taken immediately if desired (like FnP, so the wound doesn't count to combat resoltion etc.)

Monoliths allowed to teleport a solo lord too

-Disruption fields work like Gauss, but in close combat (simpler - just means they hit any Toughness on a 6)

Pariahs cost reduced by 4 points - but can purchase a 6 point upgrade that confers the Necron special rule on them.

- NEED more upgrade options for troops;- since Necrons are supposed to be uniform, all models in a unit must have the same upgrades;

New Troops upgrades:

- Logic Upgrade - 2 points per model - gives "Stubborn"
- Advanced Logic Override - 4 points per model - gives "Fearless"
- Cloak of Shadows (physical cloaks that radiate darkness and obscure the wearer) - 5 points per model: gives 5+ cover save
- Replace Gauss Flayer with Disruption Scythe - 4 points per model (counts as disruption fields, power weapon, 2 handed weapon that adds +1 to strength, no ranged attack)

New wargear for Necron lords:
Weapons: (replace staff of light for points shown)
- Spider staff +20 points(fires a swarm of tiny spider-like robots that cling to enemys and tunnel into them) , +0 points, Template S4 AP- rerolls to wound and armour saves, pinning

- Scarab staff +10 points (coordinates scarab operation): Scarabs deep striking within 24" do not scatter. Instead of firing, roll a D6 to summon new scarab swarms (place anywhere within 12" of the lord, must join an existing unit if able): 1=0 scarabs, 2-3=1 scarab, 4-5=2 scarabs, 6=3 scarabs.

- gauss Cannon - free (same as destroyer weapon - if combined with Destroyer body gains Move and Fire ability of a destroyer)

ORBS (a necron lord may only choose 1 orb, including resurrection orb):

- Phase orb: 80 points - all Necron units with a model within 6" of the lord gain a 5+ invulnerable save (including the Lord and his unit)

- Chronostasis Orb: 50 points - may only be used once. place the large blast template anywhere within 12" of the Lord (does not nee to be centered on an enemy, may be placed over friendly units). roll for scatter using the Lords BS as normal. Any unit (including vehicles and ICs) with at least 1 model under the template is frozen in time until the start of the Necron players next turn. units frozen in time may do nothing. they do not count as scoring, provide synapse or anything else - consider them to be "off the table" and replaced by indestructible, impassable terrain for the duration. Units frozen in time may not be harmed or affected by anything.

- Null field orb 90 points: This creates a null field 6" radius around the Lord, with exactly the same effects as the one described in the Apocalypse rulebook (no psychic powers may be targetted through or into the field, any non-gaus weapons fired through the field have strength reduced by 1)

- Entropic Orb 70 points: Any enemy unit within 12" or the Lord at the start of their turn must pass a leadership test or suffer -1 strength, I, WS, BS and LD until the end of their turn. vehicles must roll a D6 - on a 1 they are stunned, on a 2 they are shaken.

- Beacon orb: 20 points - any necron units deepstriking within 24" of the Lord (or the lord when using the deepstrike rules e.g. VOD) may reroll the deviation dice if they wish. they must abide by the second result if they do.

New units:

HQ: Necron High Lord (150 points):
Model: Like a necron lord but with 4 arms, and taller, and wearing a hat!
WS4, BS4, S5, T5, W4, I4, A4, LD10, Sv 3+
Special rules: necron, Fearless, Overriding Logic (Necron units within 12" count as fearless), Enhanced self repair (always counts as being in range of Res. orb). may take up to 150 points of equipment, but not Destroyer Body.

Elites:
Huntresses: (2-4) 45 points each
Model: Large robot skeletal tiger
WS4, BS0, S5, T5, W2, I5, A3, LD10, Sv 3+
Special rules: Fearless, Rending, Beasts
May be taken as retinue to a Lord or high lord (explicitly stated that Lord then counts as an upgrade character until all Huntresses are destroyed).

Troops:
Sk'orl (10-20)11 pts
WS3, BS3, S3, T4, W1, I3, A1, LD8 Sv4+
Models: Skeletal robot skaven (small, wearing cloaks)
Sko'rl were a race of small rodent like creatures enslaved by the Necrons in their first, abortive war against the Old Ones. Made into warriors along with the Necrons.
Rules: Slave race (may use Ld of any Necron unit in 6" for Morale and Pinning tests (not other Ld tests))
Equipment: Twin Gauss Sickles (rg 12", S3, AP- twin linked Gauss, counts as disruption fields and 2 close combat weapons in melee)


The Controlled: (10-30)3 points
WS1, BS1, S3, T3, W1, I1, A1, LD4 Sv-
In order to efficiently process living cattle for their masters, necrons often use implant devices taking over the minds of the creatures.
Models: humanoids in rags with spider-like mplants on the head
Special rules: Controlled (fearless as long as there is a Necron or Slaver within 6")
Feel no pain.
Slow (may not run)

Heavy Support
Slaver (1): 90 points
WS3, BS3, S6, T6, W3, I3, A4, LD10, Sv 3+
Model: Spider like creature, but much taller than a Tomb Spider
Special rules: Fearless, MC,
Paralysing beam: Range 12" S6, AP4, Assault 1 Pinning
Enslave: For each infantry or jump infantry killed by the Slaver in close combat, roll a D6, on a 4-6 that model becomes a Controlled owned by the Necron player - place within 6" of the Slaver, joining an existing unit of Controlled is possible. If a slaver participated in a sweeping advance it counts kills as long as its SA roll would have been sufficient to sweep the unit.

vehicles:

Palanquin: 120 points
Skimmer, open topped, transport (capacity 11). Armour 13 (all round)
Model: Base of a monolith but the top half replaced with space for models to stand.
Special rules: Living metal (as monolith: clarification on this - any weapon or effect that rolls "2D6+X" for armour penetration rolls only "D6+X" against living metal even if X is not described as a strength value.)
Phase shield: A powerful shield protects units riding on the palanquin and its controls and systems;- although it has all the advantages of an open topped vehicle it does not count as open topped for any damage purposes.
Teleportation matrix: Any necron unit may embark or disembark from the Palanquin to or from any point within 6" of the palanquin or to or from the portal of any Monolith within 36" of the palanquin. Units without the Necron special rule embark or disembark as normal. Destroyers and heavy destroyers may not ride on a Palanquin.

Exterminator: 200 points
Skimmer, Ponderous (as Monolith), BS4 . Armour 13 (all round)
Model: Base of a monolith but the top half replaced with a large obvious weapon (sort of a bit like a Vorlon spaceship weapon but less organic).
Special rules: Living metal (see above)
Weapon: Gauss Exterminator, range: 48", S10, AP1, Gauss, Heavy 2

SirSnipes
22-11-2009, 16:50
thats some interesting stuff there

Bolter Bait
22-11-2009, 17:57
Streamlined rules that use existing USRs or special rules that already exist where possible. WBB and Living Metal take a while for new players to get a grasp of. If they were as simple as people claim to be, we wouldn't see a new "Is my powerfist S4 or S8 against a Monolith" thread each month. Many of us have become well acquainted with the WBB/Living Metal rules by now, but that is only to be expected after dealing with them for 7 years.

Living Metal could be written: "Vehicles with the Living Metal rule are unaffected by the Lance weapon quality. Additionally, when rolling for Armour Penetration against a vehicle with the Living Metal rule, only one die is rolled regardless of the weapon type or origin of the damaging attack." See how simple that was? Is there any need for 2 pages of FAQs or errata? No.

Phase Out: No longer automatic armywide at 25%. If a Necron UNIT is reduced to below 25% starting strength, that unit phases out at the end of the turn and is placed into Reserves. Place a token or marker to remember where that unit was when it Phased Out. That unit still rolls for WBB even while in Reserves. If the Phased Out unit reaches at least 75% it's starting Strength, it automatically becomes available to reenter the battle. If there is a Monolith present, it may enter play through the Monolith portal. If the unit can Deep Strike on its own, it may do so at this time. If the player chooses or none of the former options are available, the unit may reenter play at the exact spot it Phased Out from. Place the unit exactly as if it were arriving by DS, but instead of scattering, the first model is placed where the Phase Out marker lay.

If the majority of the Necron army is below 25%, the controlling player may elect to Phase Out their entire force, ending the game. Units that are voluntarily removed from play in this manner do not count as destroyed and do not give up their KP.

WBB: Changed as follows. All Necrons with WBB have Feel No Pain (representing them shrugging off or repairing minor damage). Additionally, at the start of each Necron turn before Movement or rolling for Reserves, any Necron unit that is below starting strength rolls a D6 for each member it is missing to see if the fallen members stand back up. On a 6+, the squad regains a model, regardless of what weapon inflicted the wounds or how far away the unit is from where the models were removed. This cannot take the squad above starting size (no more need to keep track of what models were killed by what, or if you're 5.9" or 6.1" away from standing back up - faster game. Basically uses the mechanic for a Carnifex's Regenerate biomorph, only it treats the dead Necrons as lost wounds).

Monolith Portal: Squad teleported by Monolith has its dead models stand back up on a 5+ instead of a 6+.

Resurrection Orb: Grants reroll to stand back up (6+ normally or 5+ if teleported by Monolith) and a 3+ armour save to units with 6" (including Lord equipped with Orb). In the case of the 3+ save granted by the Orb, it's not granting armour per se to the affected units, it's just enhancing their ability to repair quickly, which uses the same mechanics of an armour save for simplicity sake.

In general, I feel that Necrons should should lose the all 4s statline. Decrease BS/WS/I but keep T and S at 4+. Relentless and Stubborn seem to be appropriate for an army of machines, especially Stubborn, as that would offset their low Initiative and proclivity to getting rolled the first turn of close combat. They ought to lose their armour save entirely, which makes up for army-wide FnP and the ability to stand back up when killed. Plus, tying their armour save to the Lord's Res Orb makes keeping the Lord alive an important factor and allows for small areas where the Necrons will be nearly impossible to budge. A points increase may be called for with their increased survivability and ability to move and shoot. They definitely should NOT be Fearless and WBB should NOT be only replaced by FNP without some mechanic to stand back up (6+ was the original mechanic back in their first incarnation).

creepyal
23-11-2009, 17:38
In general, I feel that Necrons should should lose the all 4s statline. Decrease BS/WS/I but keep T and S at 4+. They ought to lose their armour save entirely, which makes up for army-wide FnP and the ability to stand back up when killed. A points increase may be called for with their increased survivability and ability to move and shoot.[/i].

I have to disagree! They are a machine shooty army. I believe they should have at least a 3+ armour save. Maybe give the pariahs 2+. Plus I believe they should raise the BS not lower it. Have you ever seen the movie Terminator? Their metal bodies are there armour and the should be able to target their weapons really well. I say WS4 BS5 S4 T5 W1 I3 A1 Ld10 Sv3+. Also no penelty for rolling for sweeping advance. That rule is broken! And a point increase is out of the question, 18pts for a troop is by far high enough already! This is an advanced race and I believe it should be treated as such.

SirSnipes
23-11-2009, 19:33
agreed still i just dont want fnp as our special army rule

creepyal
23-11-2009, 19:36
I agree. Give it to the pariahs.

Bolter Bait
23-11-2009, 20:01
This. This is my palm forcefully meeting my face when I witness poor reading comprehension skills. :eek: At least I understand why people are confused about rules when they see only one part of the whole, focus on it and exclude the rest.

A minor points increase for something that is Relentless, Stubborn, has Feel No Pain (which can be taken in addition to Cover saves granted by say... abundant Scarabs rather than choosing between armour or cover) is backed up by a special retroactive save that it is always entitled to and the ability to phase out individually as a unit, rather than an army as a whole, to repair in the safety of Reserves and then potentially reenter play is uncalled for? :wtf:

Stubborn nearly eliminates entirely the situation of being run down in Sweeping Advance without needing a new, special rule that every other army will demand once it is written. Fearless is handed out far, far too often when Stubborn would suffice instead.

Robg54
24-11-2009, 00:41
Honestly, I would be fine with upping the T to 5 and lowering the save to 4+. I think mechanically it is weaker then T4, 3+(based largely on the prevalence of ap4 weaponry and high strength weaponry. If they get something else, I'd think it was fine. BTW, I LOVE the idea of teleporting near a necron unit would eliminate the scatter chance. Seems characterful and helps resolve some of the risk associated with their only real form of mobility.

I agree that wraiths should be 2 wounds and rending. A point increase is warranted, but not a substantial one.

Flayed ones are good but need something. I think they need at least 1 more attcak then they have, but I am not sure if they should have rending. It would be too much IMO. Actually, I think that part of what they need will be resolved with my favorite fix to pariahs and lords.

Pariahs. This is the most difficult nut to crack. On paper they seem good. In play they are horrible. What they need is to be upgraded. They need a higher initiative, 2 attacks and the necron special rule. But here's what I would do. Allow them to be broken up and to lead other squads.

You can purchase 4-10 of them and any number can be placed in a warrior or flayed one squad. You should be allowed to purchase flayed skins for up to 2 of them (maybe at 10 points each) so they can use the flayed ones special rules regarding deployment.

Their leadership hurting ability becomes nicer when it can be spread across the map and they add a little shooting and CC punch to the units that were severely lacking it. They also add some nice power weapons-y ability to flayed ones.

Lords should also be given the ability to roll with other units. Make a wraith body and flayed skins so he can roll with different homies. He also needs to be cheaper or the same price with res orb built in.

The monolith could stand to have some points added, maybe to 250? At least the landraider people will stop whining? It should be as survivable as before, but in a way that is less of an affront to the rules. Plus, part of the reason for the monolith's point discount was a lack of options. If we GET options, we should rightfully loose a bit of the points break.

I think heavy destroyers need some love. Not sure how tho. Destroyers are fairly good as is.

The Tomb Spyder should loose the chance to take wounds while creating a swarm and should have a special rule where it cannot be targeted until the scarab swarms are dead. Or maybe for any wound it takes a scarab swarm can lose a wound in it's place. I would like to see it's BS raised to 3 at least. WS of 2 is OK with me, as it still hits WS 4 on 4+.

And I can't say how much I hate the idea of eliminating their armor save entirely. Right now I haven't used my necrons in forever. I feel that as they currently stand they are all but unplayable against a competitive opponent. They need something of a boost to even be competitive in this edition.

Robg54
24-11-2009, 00:55
This. This is my palm forcefully meeting my face when I witness poor reading comprehension skills. :eek: At least I understand why people are confused about rules when they see only one part of the whole, focus on it and exclude the rest.

A minor points increase for something that is Relentless, Stubborn, has Feel No Pain (which can be taken in addition to Cover saves granted by say... abundant Scarabs rather than choosing between armour or cover) is backed up by a special retroactive save that it is always entitled to and the ability to phase out individually as a unit, rather than an army as a whole, to repair in the safety of Reserves and then potentially reenter play is uncalled for? :wtf:

Stubborn nearly eliminates entirely the situation of being run down in Sweeping Advance without needing a new, special rule that every other army will demand once it is written. Fearless is handed out far, far too often when Stubborn would suffice instead.

Honestly, I love your take on WBB. I really really do. I agree that the strength of the special rules you are suggesting would warrant an across the board drop in stats or an increase in points. But FNP plus always and forever having a chance of coming back on a 6 at the start of each turn is so thematic. Truly scary! And turning phasing out into something truly terrifying. They sit out, repair their numbers and come back in through the monolith. Scary!! What more could one ask for. It sounds like a fun army to play. And CC would be less obscenely destructive if they could sit out and emerge elsewhere. It would need a ton of playtesting to even have a hope at getting the points right, but would really get me excited about 40k

Thanatos_elNyx
24-11-2009, 17:14
Living Metal : Whenever the Vehicle suffers a Glancing or Penetrating Hit. Roll a die, on a 4+ the hit is ignored.

Doesn't get much simpler than that, unless we made it an additional -1 on the Damage table.


In general, I feel that Necrons should should lose the all 4s statline. Decrease BS/WS/I but keep T and S at 4+.

Agree on WS, but not on BS; and their I is already one of the worst in the game.


They ought to lose their armour save entirely

I disagree.

Robg54
28-11-2009, 15:18
I don't know about you, but when I played my necrons, the bane of my existence was 2+ armor saves and multiwound creatures.

I had such a difficult time dealing with Tyranid monstrous creatures and terminators, especially Space wolf terminators with thos stupid balms.

Would it be prudent to upgrade some shooting units to make them effective against such creatures?

Heavy Destroyers - If a heavy destroyer wounds a multiwound creature and it doesn't die, on a roll of a 4+ it deals a second wound.

Destroyers count 2+ armor saves as 3+ and 3+ armor saves as 4+ (but they aren't ignored by the destroyer's AS4). This rule couls be applied to immortals as well.

SirSnipes
28-11-2009, 20:08
thats cool

Tves
28-11-2009, 21:32
Puts on his game designer hat.

Sweeping advantage. If a unit of Necrons suffer a sweeping advance, they are removed from the table and placed into reserves, (they phased out). They then re-enter the battle via deepstrike as if they had been held in reserve since the begining of the game.

This takes care of the biggest problem necron armies phase ;) with loosing HtH. Fearless and Stubborn would mean that they stay in combat despite suffering heavy losses, while a commendable trait I feel that phasing out to reenter is a far more relentless concept. As they just keep coming.

As for additional vehicles, sure it would be nice, but like a mate of mine pointed out, wouldn't that just mean we are taking certain aspects of the monolith and wanting to buy those aspects at a discounted rate?

On the other hand I'd love to see some sort of large (defiler sized) tomb spider styled walker. A living metal engine of destruction, good for themed armies as well.

Pharias need work, ideally an extra A and to be included in the Necron type rules, making them count towards phaseout.

Phase out, whilst a seriously cool concept it does give the necron army a horrid drawback when compared to all other armies. No other army can only suffer 75% casualities before automatically losing the fight. Especially if taken into account that this is 75% casualities in the model count with the necron rule, discounting monoliths etc. Imagine a guard army that could only lose 75% of their Guard infantry models before auto losing the game (that would kill mech guard instantly).
My solution, after the phase out number is reached, the armies Lord can attempt to force his army into staying. This is done via a simple LD check, but if this check is made the lord in question is not allowed to take any action in the shooting phase. Meaning the Lord enforces his will on his minions and thus over riding any safety protocol programming in place. (obviously if the lord is dead, there can be no LD check, thus the army phases out).

creepyal
28-11-2009, 21:39
I like that idea. After the first turn the Lord would have to take a Leadership with a penelty. And the penelty would increase each turn.

living_metal maniac
06-12-2009, 15:40
i dont know if anyone mentioned it but necron lord profiles, with lord that have certain imbune powers from the C'tan to carry out their jobs.
sumthing like a lord that when used can use a wraith squad as a troop choice.

or is given a 2+ save and 4+ invul save w/out PS (if Ps is used then they get a 3+ or 2+ invul save)
or maybe you can have him give buffs to your army or sumthing
idk the whole we are the borg (w/gods), there are no individuals thing is knida getting old.

susu.exp
06-12-2009, 17:12
T3, 4+, FNP will just make them very vulnerable to S6 weapons (which ignore FNP).
Gaus Cannons, Railgun Submunitions, Autocannons, Psicannons, Assault Cannons, Orbital Barrage Bombs, Linebraker Nova-Cannons, Colossus Cannon, Grenade launchers... Those will all negate both save and FNP. They will also instakill Lords. When your Lord has to fear grenade launchers, you are in trouble, and with a destroyer body he still massively suffers...

FNP beats WBB in CC, but is slightly worse in shooting (though FNP allows you to keep from allocating wounds to Lords longer). The difference isn´t large enough to prevent the problem with sweeping advances though, so simply going to FNP nerfs an army that already has trouble.

Stubborn is IMHO the most workable route. It still allows CC oriented armies to sweep them, even if the chance is reduced while not being fearless per se and keeping a version of WBB (modified for easier handling) will allow them to be successful at reducing the Necrons in combat.

T4, WBB, Stubborn. The Save could go to 4+. Gauss clightly altered to allow destroying closed vehicles - roll of 6 glances, roll of 6 on the damage chart always counts as destroyed would be an option (won´t provide a benefit against vehicle squadrons and open topped vehicles, where a 6 destroys anyway and will mean that Gauss won´t lead to explodes! results).

These changes would allow PO to be kept - which is a nice element, IMHO, it simply doesn´t work well in 5th.

The Ginger Ninja
06-12-2009, 17:54
You should be able to take scarabs in a regular squad almost like a meat shield

SirSnipes
06-12-2009, 20:05
i say

ws3, bs4, s3, t3, i1,a1,w1, ld10, sv 3+
relentless
slow and purposeful
gauss flayer counts as a additional CC weapon( the blade on it)
wbb,
every necron killed during a turn is placed on its side, at the beginning of the next turn, roll a dice for each necron, on a 4+ the necron rises and is placed back into a unit of the same type. If no units of the same type are present on the board it may enter from a monolith portal. If no portal is present it may not rise. This effect is negated by weapons that do no allow armour saves, ie power weapons and force weapons.

all for 16pts

shayvaanhto
07-12-2009, 10:47
Consider something for a moment.

A marine is hit by an impact, the armour spreads out the blow, it recoils, the padding slows down the impact and then the spongy flesh also spreads out the blow and recoils.

When a Necron is hit with an impact, he doesnt have a crumple zone, he doesnt have padding to spread out the damage. He takes the full force of the impact on that one spot.

Being a sturdy robot is actually a bad thing, not a good one.

What??? :confused:

1) The outer skin is armour (due to superior necrontyr technology probably superior to marine armour pound for pound) so the outer armour spreads the impact at least as well as marine armour.

2) There is a concept called "sandwiching" which allows different types of armour, some of which are quite flexible, such as kevlar, to be put between harder layers, which does the same thing as marine padding (again probably better given the tech difference).

3) The marine also has vital organs that can be hit by any shot that penetrates his armour (although this is somewhat mitigated by having backups of some of these), he can also suffer blood loss which will weaken him over time (please note that flesh is NOT very effective at slowing projectiles as fast as bullets, at least not compared to metal). While the necron will probably have vital components, these can also be individually armoured (against weapons that have already lost energy to the outer armour).

4) A robot can actually be made into an almost solid lump of layered armor types (except the space given over to things like the components themselves)

Thank you for your attention :angel:

Pushkin
07-12-2009, 12:05
I like alot of the ideas on this thread, but from what i've heard/read (albeit it on dodgy forums with a history of getting rumours wrong... :-)) necrons are getting completely redone, reconcieved as an army. So rather than tweaks to the rules/statline i think it is a matter of rethinking every rule/unit in its entiety?

I like Cheeslord's suggestion of space skaven, it could be made to fit. Personally i was thinking, in line with the relentless army of robots, that instead of Necron Warriors the core troops choice could be Star Trek Borg like cyborgs. These could be the "zombies" to the Necron Warriors "Skeletons".

They could also be more geared towards close combat, think necromunda pit slaves look and feel, and fluff wise, could represent Necrons trying to expand their race but not having the capabilities. The organic look of the model would break up the metal look of the army. They could even be modelled to look like captured imperial guard, augmented to be more necron.

Another idea, is retcon Scarabs to be more like Landspeeders!
Make Scarabs bigger and less bug like and have them as small support vehicles that lay down covering fire for the advancing Necron horde.

(I know this doesn't fit with current fluff, but hey if its already gonna be retconned!)

I certainly think the army needs to be re concieved completely, not because the army is broken, but more because its a bit stagnant and the fluff needs to be developed. Also the feel of how the army should play isn't clear.

Is the core dynamic of the army "Shooty tough robots" e.g. T5 FNP etc. but not great in CC? If this is the case could do with some bigger shooty robots, e.g. dreadnaught style shooters (looking a bit like the robot in the Judge Dread film perhaps???)

However if the army is going for a space undead feel, not brilliant at anyone thing but don't stay dead and able to overwhelm armies with a slow relentless attack. I think my cyborg idea might fit in with this feel

Alternatively build in both concepts into the list and have the feel of the army dictated by the HQ, this would make the army more flexible, and give it a bit more depth!

Cheeslord
07-12-2009, 16:07
thats some interesting stuff there

Thanks, but as any person who develops games of any kind will tell you, ideas are cheap - implementing them it the hard bit (especially making models, and playtesting). Those ideas were just things I though of walking to lunch over about a week - it would only take a day or so to come up with enough Ideas for a new codex (e.g. Squats. I wold very much like Squats to be back) but with no models it would be worthless.

Plus GW has no feedback mechanism from the playerbase as far as I can tell, so it's anyones guess what they will come up with. I'm hoping they won't make them overpowered in the next codex though, or I won't play them much any more (no fun to win by having a cheesy overpowered army)

Mark.

Cheeslord
07-12-2009, 16:08
What??? :confused:

1) The outer skin is armour (due to superior necrontyr technology probably superior to marine armour pound for pound) so the outer armour spreads the impact at least as well as marine armour.

<snip>



metaphysics <<< game balance.

Mark.

koran
07-12-2009, 16:23
Something I tried the other day which I found worked well to address balance issues was to make phase out work on a squad by squad basis instead of treating the army as a whole.

So if you have a unit of 12 warriors and they are taken to below 3 warriors those last remaining three phase out.

shayvaanhto
07-12-2009, 23:59
metaphysics <<< game balance.

Mark.

Never would argue otherwise :angel:

Bad physics is almost a given in any science fiction, but when someone tries to argue that a flesh and blood human being, however enhanced, could be tougher than metal...:rolleyes:

megatrons2nd
08-12-2009, 00:37
Any metal can be construed as "weak" when used in insufficient quantities. A tinfoil thick piece of titanium won't have anywhere near the tensile strength of a full bar. A mechanized warrior like a Necron needs space for the power supplies and servos to fit inside. The armor is limited, and some of the stuff is open to the air making a juicy target for gunners. If you take out the right cable you effectivly eliminate the Necron as it no longer has power/command conections to function. So an adamantine clad warrior the uses an enhancement suit could have a higher toughness and armor than the spindely Necron.

CrownAxe
08-12-2009, 01:29
Anything could have better then armor then a Necron, but nothing SHOULD have better armor then Necrons. They are immensely advanced in technologies such as Living Metal which is why their armor is so good

megatrons2nd
08-12-2009, 01:55
Anything could have better then armor then a Necron, but nothing SHOULD have better armor then Necrons. They are immensely advanced in technologies such as Living Metal which is why their armor is so good

Even lowering the armor save to 4+ still gives them a better save than almost every unit out there, so they aren't out armored in that context. A 4T with effectively two 4+ armor saves(WBB) is much better than a 3+ armor save. Sure instakill weapons(ie anti tank guns) blow through it, but they should. Raising them to 5T and leaving a 3+ save with a 4+ WBB/FNP would make them nearly invincible(I would have to roll really good and have you chump most of your rolls to have a chance). You could always remove WBB entirely and give them a statline like Eldar Wraithguard, which is the closest approximation to a living metal warrior, who also happen to be on par with Necron tech.

SirSnipes
08-12-2009, 02:25
t5 4+ save me like

Cain-asmodeus
08-12-2009, 02:33
would defintly like to see new options (here are a few)

1. Guass turret, ability to setup normally or deepstrike in game, option to upgrade to heavy guass cannon. however the turret is immovable, it may deepstrike around the table like the veil of darkness

2. Tomb Harvestor, large tomb spider the size of medium sized tanks, with more weapon upgrades for the sole purpose of producing more casualties in cc and ranged. (A good visual would be somewhat in essence of the large machine at the end of the matrix 3 movie). the harvestor will also fire grenade like orbs.

3. The Singularity Orbs could be used as optional weapons for units of necrons to use. grenade like orbs, where instead of exploding, the shell would collapse on itself, sucking all in range into the orb.

4. Prototype, a new unit inspired by T2 movie, where a unit of necrons are made out of Living Liquid metal, the same metal construct used to contain the Ctan. The new use in the technology would allow a specially formed Necon prototype to take the literal appearance of the enemy, and shrug off the most dangerous of blows, as the particles of the necron technology reconstructs with nanites at the cellular level. they can infiltrate into the enemy army, mimic the enemy army and strike when ready, the ultimate weapon of the Deciever

5. Outsider, i could trully conceive of as being as big as the Titan in FW, Where as his powers would cause madness, ans severe manipulations of the material realm. without giving the Ctan its god like powers, it could rival Titan sized enemies, and perhaps give his necron followers the strong ability to recover from horrendous damage while in his wake, giving off the radiance of Resurrection itself?

6. Void Dragon, Probablly another addtion for FW, it has the potential to be large aswell, its powers are more with controlling Vehicles and manipulating the use of metal. perhaps monoliths could be chosen as troop choices with the void dragon, and maybe the Tomb spiders and Harvestors mentioned above?

7. Tomb Ships would be an interesting addition to the Army, for they are mentioned in the Battle fleet gothic series. It would give an alternative to the Monolith.

8. Nightbringer, I would like to see the Ctan get his ultimate weapon back, it would be worth considering i beleive.

9. Flayed ones, I beleive they should be among the troop choices....gives more diversity

10. Builder Scarabs would be interesting, for they could build weapon platforms or Repair damaged Vehicles and Necrons, gives more survival to the necron player

creepyal
08-12-2009, 02:44
Not that many years ago we thought brass was a good metal. They even made gun barrels out of it. Now we metals such as titanium and tungsten, such metals that our fore fathers never dreamed of. What kind of metal do you think we could come up with 40k years from now? Especially a race that has been around since a day short of forever. I think its going to be better than anything the SM can come up with. I say keep the 3+ Asv.

The Ginger Ninja
08-12-2009, 03:59
I like alot of the ideas on this thread, but from what i've heard/read (albeit it on dodgy forums with a history of getting rumours wrong... :-)) necrons are getting completely redone, reconcieved as an army. So rather than tweaks to the rules/statline i think it is a matter of rethinking every rule/unit in its entiety?

I like Cheeslord's suggestion of space skaven, it could be made to fit. Personally i was thinking, in line with the relentless army of robots, that instead of Necron Warriors the core troops choice could be Star Trek Borg like cyborgs. These could be the "zombies" to the Necron Warriors "Skeletons".

They could also be more geared towards close combat, think necromunda pit slaves look and feel, and fluff wise, could represent Necrons trying to expand their race but not having the capabilities. The organic look of the model would break up the metal look of the army. They could even be modelled to look like captured imperial guard, augmented to be more necron.

Another idea, is retcon Scarabs to be more like Landspeeders!
Make Scarabs bigger and less bug like and have them as small support vehicles that lay down covering fire for the advancing Necron horde.

(I know this doesn't fit with current fluff, but hey if its already gonna be retconned!)

I certainly think the army needs to be re concieved completely, not because the army is broken, but more because its a bit stagnant and the fluff needs to be developed. Also the feel of how the army should play isn't clear.

Is the core dynamic of the army "Shooty tough robots" e.g. T5 FNP etc. but not great in CC? If this is the case could do with some bigger shooty robots, e.g. dreadnaught style shooters (looking a bit like the robot in the Judge Dread film perhaps???)

However if the army is going for a space undead feel, not brilliant at anyone thing but don't stay dead and able to overwhelm armies with a slow relentless attack. I think my cyborg idea might fit in with this feel

Alternatively build in both concepts into the list and have the feel of the army dictated by the HQ, this would make the army more flexible, and give it a bit more depth!

If they do this, I t would mean changing necron fluff and model design for the second design. it would mean that every new edition the model design has cahnged, which would suck, think of the people who got original models, then the current ones.

teanabowlie
08-12-2009, 04:36
As a fluff fanatic who no longer plays, but did once play Necrons, this is my wishlist based on what I think they should be capable of doing in-game according to fluff. Points costs I'm not going to consider, since I'm pretty out of date when it comes to army building.

General special rules:
Change gauss so that multiple gauss hits can add up to some cumulative effect, not just many single hits each with the same potential of ruining your day.
Get rid of Phase out. Yes its sort of fluffy, but it just wasn't a fair trade-off for the We'll be Back rule special rules. Especially when you consider that the counter to it is to spam the models that have that rule. Just does not make sense balance-wise, or fluff-wise that Necrons would retreat when they are winning (which does happen, aren't 40k battles meant to represent a 'slice' of a wider battle?
WBB should just be FNP, simple as that.


Lords: Give them the ability to become a 'Wraith-construct,' with the actual Wraith special rules. And those I would edit to be something like the Dark Eldar shadowfield (2+ but destroyed if hit, it makes sense if you imagine a Wraith shifting in and out of phase, being hit at the right moment).
The whole 'lord transforms into C'Tan' idea seems ok to me. But only a standard foot-slogging lord. Since they did it in DoW its pretty likely thats what will happen. Also I agree with the old argument that things as tough as actual C'tan shouldn't be seen outside apocalypse.

Pariahs: Weaken the gun but have it continue to be an assault weapon. Option of an upgrade to protect them at range. Don't bring in the Necron rule or WBB, but maybe make it still possible to do a one-way deepstrike via teleporting (damnit if the Imperium can do it, so should the 'crons).

Immortals: Fine as they are.

Warriors: T4 is appropriate for the models and the fluff I think. T5 would have to be a lot bulkier. Slow and Purposeful might fit, as would a 1pt drop in WS. All other stats are fine.

New troop choice: Some sort of human-based drone, lobotomised just like servitors, but more advanced. Definately fluffy. Maybe suggest they are Admech cultists who turned to worship the Necrons and got what was coming to them.

Flayed Ones: Scouts, don't give them infiltrate, Necrons just aren't that sneaky. They don't need to be.

Wraiths get the rule above, another attack, and rending. Still teams of 3 (anymore just doesn't seem right). Possibly T5.

Desroyers: Seem pretty much ok as they are, as do heavy desroyers (points costs for both notwithstanding).

Scarabs: Again no problems, perhaps a special rule that allows them to aid in the WBB of a unit while in contact (for example re-roll as many failed WBBs as you have swarm bases in base contact with a seperate model of the unit)? Or instead use them as a bait in some way; eg, if they are alone in a combat, Necrons may fire into it, but Some Scarabs will be hit by the misses.

Monolith... So many ifs and buts surrounding this thing I don't want to comment.

Some sort of big walker as another HS choice? I mean bigger than a Dread and togher than a Defiler, but still in 40k size range.

Tomb Spiders: I have no idea what to do with them.

living_metal maniac
08-12-2009, 19:35
Any metal can be construed as "weak" when used in insufficient quantities. A tinfoil thick piece of titanium won't have anywhere near the tensile strength of a full bar. A mechanized warrior like a Necron needs space for the power supplies and servos to fit inside. The armor is limited, and some of the stuff is open to the air making a juicy target for gunners. If you take out the right cable you effectivly eliminate the Necron as it no longer has power/command conections to function. So an adamantine clad warrior the uses an enhancement suit could have a higher toughness and armor than the spindely Necron.

You are making many assumptions here
1) we have no idea what type of tech runs the necrons
2)if they are so advanced then how do we know what the major components are and what size they are, they could be microscopic since an ipod now a days has more power then a 80's comp (in only 29 yrs) who knows if we had millions of years of tech perfection
3) remember living metal works like our skin cells except better so the processors could be in the living metal itself (meaning the could be armor through and through)
So pull their cable if you can find one or if it exists. No one really knows the ins and outs of the necron individual so your arguement that they are weak is hard to follow.

moving to the wishlist topic we need squad leaders to help protect our troops in battle and maybe turn Pariah into the cyborg thing i heard about before (they are humans encased in necron tech).

megatrons2nd
09-12-2009, 01:26
You are making many assumptions here
1) we have no idea what type of tech runs the necrons
2)if they are so advanced then how do we know what the major components are and what size they are, they could be microscopic since an ipod now a days has more power then a 80's comp (in only 29 yrs) who knows if we had millions of years of tech perfection
3) remember living metal works like our skin cells except better so the processors could be in the living metal itself (meaning the could be armor through and through)
So pull their cable if you can find one or if it exists. No one really knows the ins and outs of the necron individual so your arguement that they are weak is hard to follow.

moving to the wishlist topic we need squad leaders to help protect our troops in battle and maybe turn Pariah into the cyborg thing i heard about before (they are humans encased in necron tech).

You are making assumptions that humanity didn't come close to catching up technologically while the Necrons were in stasis. Many models depict wires and such, as does at least 1 picture. I didn't say they are weak. I am just pointing out that they don't necessarily have to be T4-5, 3+ armor plus 4+WBB. You could, rules wise say that you to wound as a T3 unit that is treated as a T6 unit for ID purposes, thus always allowing WBB. They could also be given a Wraithguard's stats and loose WBB entirely and still be Strong in a game context. However Living metal doesn't necessarily mean they have to be tougher, it could just mean that they always repair eventually and will come back until atomized having no in game effect.

Cheeslord
09-12-2009, 09:08
Never would argue otherwise :angel:

Bad physics is almost a given in any science fiction, but when someone tries to argue that a flesh and blood human being, however enhanced, could be tougher than metal...:rolleyes:

Well, a human is probably more resistant to damage than, say, an Asimo. But I don't think the Necrons would have swapped their living bodies for metal ones even more fragile.

Personally I think T4 3+ save is right for rank and file Necrons anyway. All they need is some way of not running away like cowards in combat (that really doesn't fit with the fluff, or game balance).

Talking about bad physics though, I like the way in the codex Gauss weapons are described as being based on an asynchronous linear induction motor - in other words what we would conventionally call a Gauss gun in real life and what the Tau call a Railgun - before going into a load of madness about sucking off atoms from distant objects using an intense magnetic field.

Mark.

Revlid
09-12-2009, 10:17
My wishlist (and the things that would make me start Necrons):

- Individual Necrons have more personality, increasing in notability as you go up in ranks. Some real potential for tragedy here (http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/3962175/).
- Replace We'll Be Back with Feel No Pain. You know it makes sense. Slow and Purposeful and Stubborn would also be interesting.
- The Gauss rule is as-is, but only suffers -1 rather than -2 on the Glance Chart.
- Lords split into Gold/Silver/Bronze, with appropriate power levels.
- More varied and impressive Wargear.
- The Resurrection Orb allows Feel No Pain saves on wounds caused by anything. It becomes built-in on Gold Lords.
- Unique Necron special characters (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163127), perhaps with nicknames based on other, more esoteric materials (e.g. Herald of Fulmination, the Copper Lord, or Nightbringer, the Obsidian Lord, or Dustmother, the Ashen Lord)
- As in the Nightbringer example above, the current C'tan are just very advanced necrodermis shells for megalomaniacal Lords.
- Pariahs become cheaper and better - they're described in fluff as reducing Stormtroopers to shivering wrecks, making everyone Ld7 doesn't cut it, especially in a game abundant with Fearless and Stubborn. Mayhaps a unit-wide power similar to Life Drain?
- Also, make Pariahs harvested from regular humans (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyfaNnLS0QQ), genes hacked into the proper shape by subatomic blades. Real Blank conversions are the Anathemae/Banes/Abominations, who act like supercharged necronised Culexus Assassins.
- Split Tomb Spyders into Guardian, Stalker (http://www.lost-world.org/art/sentinelpic-dark.jpg)and Constructor Spyders, with Ranged, CC, and Support abilities respectively. Constructor Spyders count as having a Res Orb, and the Swarms they make don't have to stay with them.
- I'm undecided on whether techno-converted zombies (http://masseffected.pbworks.com/f/1200051927/mass-effect-20070711012325798.jpg) should show up or not. Perhaps equipped with a Lightning Field.
- The Necrodermoth (http://fc08.deviantart.com/fs38/f/2008/349/4/0/Necrodermoth_by_Revlid.jpg), a liquid-metal (http://terminator.wikia.com/wiki/File:T-1000000.png) monstrosity allegedly created by the C'tan themselves - or perhaps shards of a defeated-but-not-consumed one. A CC monster with ridiculous durability, but vulnerable to melta weapons and blasts.
- The Obelisk - a mini-Monolith, with the same transporting ability, but little-to-no weaponry. Much cheaper, and Fast Attack.
- Necron walkers (not giant skeletons) in the form of Sarcophagi - technological coffins inhabited by god-knows-what (the gestating forms of Pariahs, perhaps?) held aloft by thrashing metal tentacles.
- Rending for Wraiths. A ranged Wraith variant, the Shade, capable of putting out lots of shots, but at a low strength.
- Crypt Wyrms (http://media.photobucket.com/image/hydrobot/csutkakoma/HYDROBOT_ATTACKCOILMODE_003RM_SY-1.jpg). A tunneling CC Beast unit with a cover save for moving through the earth.
- Mantleborn. Necrons caught in continental drift, volcanic activity, or who were simply damaged too badly too many times to properly repair - physically deformed and equipped with mental capabilities ranging from mindless to insane. Think the T-X toward the end of T3 - a skeletal form with liquid metal thrashing and dripping around it.
- Flayed Ones to become Troops. Possibly with Rending?
- Scarabs split into three - Scarab Swarms, which are Troops that don't count toward the maximum. Then two larger scarabs, who are on individual infantry bases - Scout and Worker Scarabs. The former has the old self-destruct ability, while the latter can be attached to squads, who then count as having a Res Orb (or may ignore a single wound, or re-roll or something).
- A Monolith can be upgraded with CC mechandrites, a mini-Pylon that replaces its main weapon, or an AEonic Orb, which replaces all weapons and removes transport capability, in exchange for providing a cover save and being ridiculously powerful.
http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/Revlid/?action=view&current=necronconcepts.jpg

Cheeslord
09-12-2009, 10:35
Revlid, the above ideas I like, although I don't think a sarcophagus supported on tentacles would look very good. Maybe embedded in a spider/crab robot would look better - I think the sarcophagus might have the preserved remains of the organic body of some great high Necrontyr lord (maybe he still has an organic brain but the rest of the body frozen, created before the art of consciousness transfer to machines had been perfected)

Maybe make disruption fields rending (but still always cause a glancing hit on a vehicle regardless of armour value as they do now) and make them available to Wraiths?

Mark.

madd0ct0r
09-12-2009, 12:38
Jesus Revlid, that's an entire codex there!

I'd go with all of them except the Necrodermoth and the Sarcophagi.

I'm not sure why, but neither seem to fit with Necrons, perhaps because the only MC in the list as stands is the tomb spyder, basically a glorified janitor.
Necrons just don't seem to build big walkers, and certainly not CC ones.

Is it possible to be an elite horde army?

Lord Damocles
09-12-2009, 19:56
Necrons just don't seem to build big walkers, and certainly not CC ones.
...in fact it seems that some of the larger Necron constructs have been created specifically for a close assault role. As yet, there are no vid-log reports of these creatures.
'Index Xenos: Necrons', in White Dwarf 271, pg.22

living_metal maniac
10-12-2009, 18:12
well isnt this the problem with necrons, that they have not big mechs and no CC abilities. I mean why cant necrons be as flexible as the living metal they are made of. Being trapped in a footslogging, I2, and CC incompetent army is really why we need a new codex in the first place. We especially need flexibility when facing orks.....they have 1 strategy (charge in and whipe the enemy out) 1 way to stop them(kill them before CC), and necrons just cant pull it off.
And you say there are no vid logs about any other necron units well at some point there were no vid logs about alot of units (before they came out) in WH 40K today im sure. But even if im wrong the necrons are older then the eldar, humans, and tau combined, so im sure there are still hidden weapon the C'tan decided to keep secret till the time is right.

madd0ct0r
11-12-2009, 10:21
...in fact it seems that some of the larger Necron constructs have been created specifically for a close assault role. As yet, there are no vid-log reports of these creatures.
'Index Xenos: Necrons', in White Dwarf 271, pg.22

strokes beard.


hmmm.
from wikipedia's cuthullu page:

Hounds of Tindalos
The Hounds of Tindalos dwell in the distant past of the earth, when normal life had not yet advanced past one-celled animals. They are said to inhabit the angles of time, while other beings (such as humankind and all common life) descend from curves. The Hounds are thought to be immortal and are believed to lust after something in humankind and other normal life, and will follow victims through time and space to get it. Their appearance is unknown because no characters who meet them survive long enough to give a description. It is said that they have long, hollow tongues or proboscis to drain victims' body-fluids, and that they excrete a strange blue pus or ichor.

Though the Hounds are sometimes pictured as canine, probably because of the evocative name of the first story in which they appeared, it is not likely that they appear as such- the story states that the name "veils their foulness". Various pastiches suggest that the Hounds are more bat-like in appearance, like the byakhee, or may appear even worse. The name Hounds of Tindalos refers more to the creatures' habits than their appearance.

Because of their relationship with the angles of time, they can materialize through any corner if it is fairly sharp—120º or less. When a Hound is about to appear, it materializes first as smoke pouring from the corner, and finally the head emerges followed by the body. It is said that once a human becomes known to one of these creatures, a Hound of Tindalos will pursue the victim through anything to reach its quarry. A person risks attracting their attention by travelling through time.


L'gy'hx

The planet Uranus. It is inhabited by metallic, cube-shaped beings with multiple legs. These creatures worship a minor deity known as L'rog'g (possibly another aspect of Nyarlathotep), whose rituals require a yearly sacrifice in the form of the excising of the legs from a native.

Souleater
11-12-2009, 10:41
I want robot Cthulhu attack dogs! :D

Being able to contruct bodies for their minds should give Necron some crazy out there unit options.

I'd like to see a bit more 'insanity of the Elder Gods' flavour in their background and units.

And for them to have the option to be a small, elitish army. Playing Nids and DE Cron are my 'small, Tough, shooty' army so if that goes away they might end up in storage again! :(

Mozzamanx
11-12-2009, 15:22
I think that Revlid's suggestion of tech-Zombies would provide the perfect unit to solve the dual nature of the Necrons- Warriors can be buffed up to the T5 monsters from before time, whereas the Zombies provide the unstoppable horde of the undead.

I'm also a big fan of giving them slow troops, but some sort of teleport array. Make Obelisks as a Fast Attack or 'free' unit, along with Monoliths. They allow units within 12" to phase out and redeploy at the portal, or another portal within 12" of that one. This effect is unlimited, meaning with enough portals you can teleport from one board edge to the other.

Thematically, I'd love to see them as monstrously powerful individuals, who are relatively slow but make up for it by breaking the laws of physics. Flayed Ones at 30pts with Lightning Claws, Pariahs able to join units like a Sergeant/Heavy hybrid and a batch of new Spyder variants. A *rock hard* core of Necrons who can redeploy where they are needed, supported by swarms of Scarabs and a horde of converted tech-zombies.

Azmodan666
11-12-2009, 17:11
Flayed ones need rendings,
Wraits well i would give them power waepons,
^^ this suppose to be CC units but try to kill berzerkers, harlequins, genesteelers etc with them.

WBB should stay, its unique to the army, but should be re-writen.

C'tan in person out to apoc, maybe some lesser manifest of them should stay.

Second heavy option.

And the living metal schould go OUT OF THE DEX!!!!. i know i know but how the hell should eldars, chaos daemons destroy monolith hmm?? this rule should be re-writen, i would see it working just like build in tech marine- reapering immpobiles and weapon destory but sorry the rule is not good as it is.

and phase out should be gone!!.

Also pariahs are fine......... just double their attacks ;]

living_metal maniac
13-12-2009, 16:24
just thinking about the the whole 4 levels of the necron lords (bronze, silver, gold, and never seen platinum)
i wonder if they'll give use those as like high to low cost H.Q.
if so maybe gold lord should get ability to regen old woulds, kinda like phylactory sept you dont have to die to get em back. (ya i know its op but if they make it a 5+ or 6+ maybe not so much)
Living metal rocks hard

sworth9411
13-12-2009, 17:32
just to throw this out there I would love to see them make limited edition castings of the necron rods / clear bits to help create some army diversity / different looking armies....just my 2 cents

senorcardgage
13-12-2009, 18:33
- Also, make Pariahs harvested from regular humans, genes hacked into the proper shape by subatomic blades.


Why would you need subatomic blades?!

Inach
05-01-2010, 00:12
While the power level of all the new codices is rising to increasingly higher levels I wonder how it'll fair for the crons.
Overall GW tend to increase the effectiveness of ineffective units of the previous dex and vice versa. Lets have a look and the cron units and their power level right now and what could be increased, nerfed or changed.

*To start with the only unit that could be a bit too cheap: Destroyers.
These guys are the workhorse for every cron army. The general consensus at this moment, take 2 troops, HQ and as many destroyers as possible. Above 1250 (or 1500) get some support like a Lith.
* Heavy destroyers. A nice unit, in 2 groups of 2 they can kill transports and WBB into the other group. They costs to much, their effectiveness could be raised by making their shots twinlinked. Only put them in a Destroyer unit (as upgrade) if they will be able to fire at other targets.
* Scarabs. Some love them some hate them. In 4th they had their effectiveness as tankhunter, now they can still be used for some play styles as blocker or for cover save (depending on the player). For me they lost their.. punch.
* Flayed ones. Nice on paper (except the I) but about the most awful CC specialists in game. How to increase them? Powerweapons / rending / more attacks? I dunno.
* Immortals. The name alone makes me buy them (the ones from 300 were also cool!). The (old) mini's are awesome but sadly enough metal (I made 1 immortal out of 2 warriors). Good stats, no idea how to increase them.. if needed.
* Tomb spiders. Fun to get 9 of them!
They can be effective as counter assault (the little that is available) or keeping it possible to WBB for a lone group of destroyers. I think a build in orb (less powerful one) or the ability to repair fallen units would be awesome.
* Warriors. With the current phase out rules.. it's really pathetic to play with them. I imagene cron warriors as an endless swarm of metal bodies. They get shot down and some sparks from the chest will make it stand up and continue the onslaught. Warrior tactics at the moment, hide! HIDE!!
I hate it.
How to improve them? IMO 4+ save, group PO, WS2, Waaay cheaper
* Now the cool part, the Lith. I do love the model and the rules. No ideas how to improve it, if it would be needed. Maybe just remove the living metal rule. AV 14 around is good enough.
* Wraiths. They have a very high 'make something cool out of them' appealing. Although they are rather good, make bigger squads and rending or something.
* Pariahs. Probably I’m the only one, but I do love the models. Make them Cron, more attacks and I4 (still a bit human) and they are good to go.
* The lords are nice but not good enough. If no unit upgrades could be taken, follow the line of daemons: Cheap lords as Heralds (2 as 1 HQ choice): 3 bronze (may take a max of 50 points of wargear) as 1 HQ, 2 silver lords (may take max 100 points of wargear and slightly better stats) a 1 HQ or 1 gold lord which would be an C'tan equivalent.

General thoughts that could improve the army:

- Make the C'tan like the chaos gods. They have their own followers and therefore unique powers (deceiver gives units -1 Leadership to enemies within 12 inch / nightbringer +1 str / voiddragon + 1 BS / outsider +1 WBB)
- Stop with Crons as being MEQ, make them a swarm shooting army.
- Keep wwb but describe it in such a way that everyone understand it.
- Keep PO but restrict it to units.
- Although crons aint very versatile, the current dex only (save disrupting shields) gives the lord upgrade options. IMO give units like Destroyers the ability to chose whole in battle (assault 3 Str4 AP3 weapons or assault 3 Str 6 AP 4 weapons or assault 3 Str 7 ap- weapons). Same goes for other units.
- The new Cron MC or vehicle.... lets wait and see :D

As side note, I would like to add I Love the current Cron fluff, I find them rather boring to play and noticed friends find them rather boring to play against. Still I will keep collecting them, they are just to nice to play with.

Professor Grumbles
05-01-2010, 01:04
- Stop with Crons as being MEQ, make them a swarm shooting army.
- Make the C'tan like the chaos gods. They have their own followers and therefore unique powers (deceiver gives units -1 Leadership to enemies within 12 inch / nightbringer +1 str / voiddragon + 1 BS / outsider +1 WBB)Agreed. I'd much prefer Warriors with a 3 WS/BS, 4+ save and FNP too.

CraftworldsRus
05-01-2010, 01:11
I have to say, I don't see Necrons working as a swarm shooting army. It just doesn't fit. I think a better change would be to remove phase out all together, and then take the Warrior unit and give it a leader-type, perhaps a so-called Bronze Level lord that can take a Warscythe, and packs 2 attacks at S5. Then make them fearless. That gives them a fighting chance should they be locked in CC.

Lords are good enough. Add a powerfist-like option, and let them come with a basic "close combat weapon" and they are grand. Also would make for a nice choice. Do you take the Scythe and ignore the invul-saves, or the p-fist and one-shot multi-wound models, chancing they could pass all their saves?

Scarabs need Krak. I was thinking melta, but that seems over the top. Scarabs shouldn't be able to crack a Land Raider.

I agree about Wraiths getting rending, or even PW. Needs to happen. Also, they could stand another wound if they lost their 3+ Invul save.

Flayed ones need +1A, and furious charge.

Or at least, that is what I think.

squeekenator
05-01-2010, 01:39
- Stop with Crons as being MEQ, make them a swarm shooting army.

Why on earth would you do that? They're Necrons. They're made of super-strong metal, capable of repairing themselves as fast as you can damage them, and armed with gauss flayers that can rip their victim into the component molecules in moments. Are you really suggesting that they become on par with Tau Fire Warriors? If anything, they should become more elite, because right now they don't do the fluff justice at all. Necrons are the super death-robots that the C'Tan used to conquer the whole galaxy and swat aside the Old Ones and all their minions, and they didn't do that by weight of numbers.

Other than that, all good suggestions, but I don't see why Necrons should ever outnumber anyone.

IcedAnimals
05-01-2010, 01:57
I agree with squeek. get rid of phase out give them like +1 toughness. They should be expensive strong units. Flayed ones lowering opponents I would probably be a better way for the TV thing to work.

Perhaps give them the ability to field a weaker version of the warrior. So that by combining them with scarabs you are able to field a higher number of them. But I think scarabs alone are fine for that.

Rydmend
05-01-2010, 02:19
I like the idea of FnP across the board for crons.

SirSnipes
05-01-2010, 02:20
we should keep living metal, just simplify the wording

The pestilent 1
05-01-2010, 02:21
Not a Necron player, so take this as you will.

I'd like to see more personality in some units.
Yeah, the basic warrior and Immortal should stay as the endless legions gig, but Lords and Pariahs should be individuals in their own right.

Obvious answer is more wargear for lords (Even something as simple as a Necron Frag grenade would be a start) plus maybe more body types (Wraith Lord, Immortal lord for extra T and a bigger gun, Flayed lord for flanking and better CC or something)


C'Tan.
Remove them as models, have aspects like DOW did.
Maybe not Possessing a Lord to bring them one, but I could see losing 5 wounds worth of Necron warriors to bring one onto the field as their bodies fuse to form the C'Tan aspects new body.

New vehicle - Some kind of mid support vehicle, think a Predator.
Make it an Obelisk with a Gauss arc or something, floating about the battlefield zapping bugs left and centre.

Null_Sheen
05-01-2010, 02:28
Only two things need to be changed in Necrons.

Make WBB into FNP and make gauss glancing only -1

Voss
05-01-2010, 02:38
Only two things need to be changed in Necrons.

Make WBB into FNP and make gauss glancing only -1

That isn't true. Pariahs, Flayed Ones, Heavy Destroyers and Tomb Spyders definitely need something to make them more viable.
The list also needs some versatility. Flayed ones could shift to troops, and Elites and Heavy Support need at least one more choice each.

That said, I vehemently disagree with the OP. Making Necron Warriors _worse_ isn't the way to go. Particularly since his changes go agains the Necron background he claims to love so much.

Chem-Dog
05-01-2010, 03:14
Obvious answer is more wargear for lords (Even something as simple as a Necron Frag grenade would be a start) plus maybe more body types (Wraith Lord, Immortal lord for extra T and a bigger gun, Flayed lord for flanking and better CC or something)
I have been a fan of the differing body type idea since I first saw it suggested, Of course, the current wargear can be limited to specific Lord types (Res Orb to Immortal, Warscythe to Pariah for example) and new stuff added where needed. The other way body type can be a winning choice is by using the already widespread formula of "Character type A allows associated Unit to be take as troops" ect. Combined with dropping the Phase out Rule and a expanded range of units we could see some real variations in Necron army build.

On the subject of Lords, the mention of differing levels of Lord could open up the prospect of a 2-for-1 HQ choice of lower level Lord (like Daemon Heralds) or even Lesser Lords as an Elites choice, I wouldn't want to see Veteran Sarge equivalents though.

Alessander
05-01-2010, 03:16
having a special meltabomb attack that hinges on the number of bases in a scarab swarm sounds cool. one little swarm shouldn't crack a land raider, but nine swarms should.

Tomb Spyders need a kill point tweak. Currently 3 heavy slots can give away 9 KPs.

megatrons2nd
05-01-2010, 03:25
I think living metal should just give a 3+ or 4+ save against all attacks to the monolith rather than ignoring melta/lance abilities and leaving lascannons unaffected.

Troops Choice wise I feel that Flayed Ones should be included there. Clean up the wording on WBB or give FNP as an army wide rule. Gauss should get a +1 to it's damage roll vs vehicles. Drop the warriors WS to 2, give them stubborn. Make PO unit based.

t-tauri
05-01-2010, 06:04
Two wishlists merged. Please try a search before opening a new thread.

The Ginger Ninja
05-01-2010, 10:35
gauss glancing only -1
I disagree, as a necron player, that would be sweet, but I don't think i would be able to put up with the cries of "CHEESE" from everyone. at the moment it is good execpt there being a 1 in 3 chance of shaking :(, if they can solve the 1 in 3 chance everything will be all good

living_metal maniac
26-01-2010, 01:30
i as a necron player only need probly stubborn and a few model tweeks(plastic troop choice flayed ones etc), but id love to see a walker and the obelisk as capable of being either a transport with a portal and maybe a Gauss flux arch projector or an artillery piece with a 36 inch mini particle whip heh. Also id like to see a lower point unit for troop (scarab maybe) and less crowding of the FA slot.

CrownAxe
26-01-2010, 02:20
Scarabs should get to use a grenade that is SX 2d6, X being the number of bases in the unit

Have a Builder Scarab, Either acts a rez orb, counts a similar unit (if they keep they part of WBB) or makes WBB on a 3+

Make Phase Out into a rule like ATSKNF. Something where if they fail the break test they go into reserves and they will walk in from a Portal

Make more Teleporting Portals. Something like an obelisk that is basically a Drop Pod so Deep Strikes onto the field, has Living metal but is only 13/12/12 And has a sing Gauss Blaster but can do the Teleport in 18" and counts as a Portal for above rule

Vhalyar
26-01-2010, 02:31
It's pretty obvious at this point that the Necron will receive a hell of a shake up. So few unit choices, so utterly devoid of variety, so very weak compared to the newer armies.

I'd love to see the fluff revamped so that Lords are more Machiavellian and not so utterly bound to the C'tans. You could even have rebel Tomb Worlds off to do their own shtick. A strong infusion of personality would do wonders. Speaking of personality, I foresee Necrons receiving the Tyranid treatment when it comes to unique/named HQs and units. That seems to be a common trend with the newer army books.

Beyond that, a new big kit is certain to be added to the Necron arsenal. IG got the Valkyrie, Tyranids the Trygon, Orks the Battlewagon and Spess Mehreens the Land Raider.

As for what I would personally love to see...

The aforementioned big kit. Hopefully something in the insectoid style of the Scarabs/Tomb Spyder/Crypt Stalker.

Obelisk – Heavy Support – Variant of the Monolith; long-range artillery but no teleportation.

Plinth – Fast Attack – Units of 1-3, deployed individually, Deep Strike on turn 1. Plinths become active one turn after arriving; Necrons within 6” of a Plinth can teleport to any other Plinth during the movement phase. Maybe for every Warrior unit deployed, an extra Plinth can be bought and fielded.

A Wraith-type unit in the Elite slot. This way all four necron archetypes are expanded: footsloggers, jetbikes/destroyers, serpentine/wraiths and insectoid/automated defenders.

Speculation is really pointless with the total lack of concrete rumors, but I do expect some tremendous changes to the codex.

Edit: Dawn of War: Dark Crusade actually made the Necrons interesting by simply having them communicate from time to time.
Tau Ethereal: We'll drive you back to the graves you came from!
Necron Lord: With pleasure, but first we'll ease you into yours.

Witty little undead machine bastards!

incarna
26-01-2010, 03:46
Any model with the “Necron” special rule gets the following abilities: FNP USR, Fearless USR, and Slow and Purposeful.

Any weapon with the “Gauss” special rule gets the following abilities: Rending USR

Necron Lord – more options. Options should drive an “evil mastermind” theme over “Warrior Babysitter” theme.

C’Tan should be removed from the book. It’s fine if the Necron Lord’s are given a “necrodermis” to resemble the current C’Tan models but are not represented as living gods on the tabletop.

Monolith should be moved to the HQ slot and replace the re-roll failed WBB with a mechanic similar to that of the Trigon – the ability to spawn Necron Warriors during the game. Moving the Monolith to the HQ slot may seem insane but I actually believe that’s the correct place for this model and that the Heavy Support slots should be available for other things. The Monolith is such a linchpin of nearly every competitive Necron army it’s not really heavy support. The Ordinance from the crystal should be removed and given the ability to bestow powers on squads within 24”; re-roll FNP, extra attack in CC, increased weapon strength, etc.. The Gauss flux arcs should be str 4 defensive weapons; heavy 6 – and there should be 4 restricted in the same way sponson lascannons and whatnot are restricted via LOS.

Pariah’s should be Necrons, I 4, and they should be able to shoot with their CC weapons a la Stargate bad guys.

Flayd one’s entire concept is dumb but their models are made so may as well go with it. Any model within 12” of a Flayed One unit has their leadership reduced by 2. Deep Strike mechanic should be similar to Mawloc but reduced to Str 4 Ap - rending (as the reach up from the earth to drag their victims to their death). Claws should be rending.

Tomb Spiders should be moved to elites. Should have a mechanic similar to the Trygon where it generates Scarabs. Should be fairly scary in CC.

Immortals should be moved to troops.

Warriors are good the way they are. Should have the option to take a heavy weapons platform similar to Eldar guardians.

New Troop unit – some sort of non-necron “harvested” unit. Humans (or aliens) that are not yet fully Necrons but still completely subservient to their will. Army function similar to Penal Legion.

Wraiths – take away the “move like jetbikes” and replace with “jump infantry” (I used to roll with 3 squads of 3 of these guys and let me say they went toe-to-toe with a 9-large squad of 10k sons terminators [back when they had 2 wounds each] and came out on top). Everything else stays the same except they can be taken in squads of up to 9 and they have rending.

Scarabs again, should move like jump infantry. Maybe their options should change to make them a more effective niche unit.

New fast Attack Unit: Obelisk deep-striking immobile vehicle (DS similar to SM drop pods but without guys inside) that can either shoot or act like a homing beacon for other Necron units to deep strike onto.

Destroyers should pretty much stay the same.

Heavy Destroyers should also stay the same but be cheaper and be able to roll in squads of up to 5.

New Heavy Support Unit: Pylon Immobile gun platform that brings the pain like IG tanks. They should come in squads of up to 3 and be nearly as diverse as IG tanks and artillery.

That’s what I’d like to see for the new Necron Codex. Point values have not been thought out but I’d say the values of every unit would change.

Nezmith
26-01-2010, 05:15
My wishlist:


Pariahs need two attacks, and should be squad leaders instead of all walking together in the same little group. Instead of huddled together, have the pariahs spread out with one in every group of warriors, effectively making any non-fearless enemy that wants to get stuck in with the Necrons, have their leadership reduced significantly.

Necron Lords should have a variety of roles, instead of just marching with the Warriors. Their fluff should also refer to them as having the personalities they have kept, and make them out to be vile in their own right with their own plans. This way Necron vs Necron battles can be explained.

Tomb Spyders can create d3 scarab bases a turn which become independent of the Tomb Spyder. A roll of 1 on the d3 forces the Tomb Spyder to suffer a wound.

Tomb Spyders can also be upgraded to resurrect d6 wounds worth of Necrons in every Unit within 6" in the movement phase.

Immortals need a change so they aren't just Necron Warriors with +1 Toughness and two shots with their gun.

A smaller version of the Necron Pylon is added as an immobile artillery platform with an armor value similar to the Monolith. Obviously no Strength D.

The Ginger Ninja
26-01-2010, 07:26
Dawn of War: Dark Crusade actually made the Necrons interesting by simply having them communicate from time to time.
Tau Ethereal: We'll drive you back to the graves you came from!
Necron Lord: With pleasure, but first we'll ease you into yours.

Witty little undead machine bastards!

Haha, Very tempted to sig

Spiney Norman
26-01-2010, 08:13
Make more Teleporting Portals. Something like an obelisk that is basically a Drop Pod so Deep Strikes onto the field, has Living metal but is only 13/12/12 And has a sing Gauss Blaster but can do the Teleport in 18" and counts as a Portal for above rule

Switch the gauss blaster armament for twin-linked heavy gauss cannon and I'd be interested. Necrons need more dedicated anti-tank, at the moment we have a choice between the fragile and overpriced heavy destroyers and the inaccurate particle whip.

living_metal maniac
01-02-2010, 11:31
heh, this is just a joke but how about a reversal of the Phase out rule, if 75% of the necron army is on the table during turn 3-4 then we atomatically win lmao. If we get an auto lose button how about a n auto win button

azimaith
01-02-2010, 11:49
Necrons need to focus more on their advanced technology and abilities to carry them through games rather than fielding legions of meq troops with FNP.

I want to see more effective wargear that does incredible things and a necron army that plays unlike any other. Things like phasing out on purpose to re-enter through another method, teleporting around, phasing out one unit and phasing another in its place, ect.

More cool anti-psyker/leadership stuff too.

It would be great to have them very unique.

Max Jet
01-02-2010, 11:52
I seriously, SERIOUSLY hope this time they listen to the fans. And the one reason I never ever said the Orks would be cheese or the Imperial Guard is, because they deserved a good and powerfull Codex. The same goes for Necrons. If there is one race left, it's them who deserve a good Codex!
Let's hope the Codex will have a decent amount of internal balance and bepowerful on the top. And hopefully Necrons get more than just 2 new plastic kits ^^

Thanatos_elNyx
01-02-2010, 14:15
i for one do NOT want a transport, i feel part of the uniqueness of crons is that they footslog it

I agree, if Necrons want to get somewhere fast they teleport.
More Teleporting I say!
Say have a number of units that have portals, and you can walk in one portal and walk out any other portal (all in the same turn). And when they deep strike, they only scatter 6", they should be masters of teleporting.

Monolith, change the Flux arc to be 4 Gauss Cannons that can combine their firepower into the OrdBlast thingy. It can only move 6" a turn but can fire all weapons. I like the idea that the Power Matrix has different abilities it can bestow on nearby units. Change Living Metal to a 4+ Invulnerable save on all hits.

Tomb Spyders should have a few variants, a CC version (with DCCWs), and shooty version (with Gauss Cannons and/or Heavy Cannons) and the builder version that spawns scarabs.

Pariahs armed with Staff of Lights. Give them FNP instead of WBB (assuming WBB isn't changed to FNP).

Wraiths with(read 'are') Phase Blades

Flayed Ones to get unpower Lightning claws (i.e. just reroll to wound) and attack increase. Move to Troops.

Some sort of Ushabti elite robots.

Keep C'tan rules with different fluff.

Gauss = 6 to Penetrate is a Glance+1

Hoodwink
01-02-2010, 15:24
I could actually see them with a "transport" of sorts. But not in the traditional way of getting troops from one side of the field to the other and dumping them. I actually see them more along the lines of a cross between Dark Eldar and IG. This is my thought:

First thing that popped into my head when I was thinking about it was the Transport from Tribes (If anyone else played that back in the day haha). Basically a very rectangular skimmer that was pretty much a hovercraft. Stays a little above the ground and has compartments to hold Necron warriors along the left and right sides.

Gameplay-wise: This would effectively give the Necrons a way of giving their slow troops a way of maneuvering around without being assault fodder. Make it open top and relatively fragile, but it would give mobility to allow the Warriors onboard to turn it into a fast, fragile gunship of sorts.

Thinking of not even putting weapons on the actual transport. What would be neat imo would be something like this in the range of 14/10/10 to signify a force field shielding in the front to protect the troops. This keeps the fragile warriors (I say fragile because of the phase-out rule... you can't afford to lose them since they are your life force) safer than on foot, and gives them mobile firepower in a phase of 40k right now where mobility means a lot. This also puts more strategy of flanking for the enemy since a frontal attack would be much more difficult for what it's worth.

On a completely seperate note, I'd like to keep WBB the way it is (as far as falling and rolling for getting back up and such), but also give you the option of being able to remove those models from the table and have them come back via DS or through a Monolith gate instead of getting back up in the same spot if you wanted. This would dynamically change the game for Necrons. Someone kills half of a squad of warriors and they teleport out, only to reappear next to a cap point and light up a squad already there :D

Just my input though.

azimaith
01-02-2010, 17:47
I've written codex for the cron's that have them playing unlike any other army in the game. Lots of deep striking, teleporting and phasing in and out. I'm hoping they end up being unique and very tech based.

Hoodwink
01-02-2010, 18:12
I like the WBB rules for them far more than FNP. I don't want them to be just like any other army. They are already boring as it is with the current rules. Need to spice it up. I'd like to see some Vehicles in there. They need better ways to DS.

What would be neat is a vehicle that locks onto enemies in range and allows you to DS units directly into CC. Roll to hit on the shooting phase instead of shooting, and a hit would allow you to DS a unit from reserve into CC with an enemy.

jsullivanlaw
01-02-2010, 19:02
Here is what they should do with a new necron codex. Keep all the rules as they are. Exactly the same, but make everything way cheaper. It would be awesome to see vehicles go down to hundreds of glances just because warriors cost 6 points each... The swarm of crappy MEQ would fit the necron fluff well.

azimaith
01-02-2010, 19:06
I like the WBB rules for them far more than FNP. I don't want them to be just like any other army. They are already boring as it is with the current rules. Need to spice it up. I'd like to see some Vehicles in there. They need better ways to DS.

What would be neat is a vehicle that locks onto enemies in range and allows you to DS units directly into CC. Roll to hit on the shooting phase instead of shooting, and a hit would allow you to DS a unit from reserve into CC with an enemy.

I've toyed with a unit that would allow you to replace a squad anywhere on the board with a squad coming in from reserves including into CC.

kargie
01-02-2010, 19:10
I don't think either S5 or AP4 are going to fly, either. No race has AP4 for their basic weapons, and only Tau get S5 basic guns, and they pay for that by being T3 4+ and inept in close combat.


Chaos Daemons do--Horrors have assault 3 S4 AP4. Though like Tau they really suck in CC (though with a better save).

Lord Damocles
01-02-2010, 19:26
It would be awesome to see vehicles go down to hundreds of glances just because warriors cost 6 points each... The swarm of crappy MEQ would fit the necron fluff well.
It would also be terrible to find that if your army has any significant number of infantry, you loose to the hoard of 6pt Warriors :eyebrows:

Necron constructs being 'crappy' would also definately *not* fit their background.

Hoodwink
01-02-2010, 19:27
Yeah I thought a unit that would paint a target on an enemy in the shooting phase instead of shooting would be pretty unique and interesting. You could specify the unit you wanted your meleers to assault first. Plus it would be much more effective than DSing and standing there since you can't assault normally...

Sygerrik
01-02-2010, 19:51
The Necrons were my first Warhammer army ever ever ever, so I have lots of wishes. A lot of them have been stated so far, but I really want more vehicles. I hope to see the next codex include some completely new things that blow us all out of the water, instead of just Destroyer and Spyder variants. As the Necrons continue to awaken, more advanced forms are coming out of dormancy. Maybe there's a Thresher, a large bladed construct designed to destroy massed infantry formations, or a Doomshadow, an assassin-type super-Wraith that hunts and destroys priority targets.

And we need a bigger Monolith. The ANNIHILATRIX (capslock not optional) for 500 points with two particle whips, 10 Flux Arcs, AV 15 all around and a hat.

Ba'al Starslayer
01-02-2010, 20:21
My view on the Necrons.....
C'TAN - The Necron versions of the Chaos Gods. Whilst not as powerful as a God (Since they technically aren't, they're just idolised as such) they should definitely be more powerful. The Nightbringer is, in fluff, the Human "Grim Reaper", and the Deceiver actually managed to TRICK all of the others. NOTHING in their rules really does them justice. I say remove their codex entries, and make them Apoc-only. And make them HARD. Dont add the other two. Maybe the Outcast since not much is known about it, but the Dragon is sealed away, and should stay like that.
TRANSPORTS - If noone has noticed, Necrons are based (albeit loosely) on Roman Fluff. Legions, no transportation, few fast units. But their basic units (Or 'Legionnaires') are hard as nails. In retrospect I personally believe that their armour save should be dropped to 4+, but their Toughness boosted to 5, given FNP and Relentless. Back to my 'rant' on transports though - They should not have them. Simple as that. They're a footslogging, resilient army. They should stay like that.
SCARABS - They should play a more important role. As someone stated earlier, some should be upgrades for squads (Maybe 2 per squad, about the size of Builders in DoW) that, say, improve their FNP save from 4+ to 3+? Scarab Swarms are cool as they are, but surely this underlying theme can be expanded upon.
MONOLITHS - I know there's the Apoc-only variant, but surely the Necrontyr architects of old had a FEW more ideas than these things... more variety in this vehicle would be nice. Similar in design, but different functions.
LORDS - Are pretty good, a points decrease would be nice, and also the introduction of the "Tier" Lords as described in the fluff. Maybe the Gold tier could use "Essence" of a C'tan to boost it's power for one turn, once per game.
HEAVY DESTROYERS - They have a targetter on their shoulder. What for? These guys are the pinpoint shooters, so why not have BS4(5)?
ARMY-WIDE - WS2 and I2 should make them less hard hitting (They can currently churn out similar hurt as a Space Marine, give or take).
COMBAT - Make Flayed Ones WS4 and I5 (Taking into account my idea of WS2 and I2 Warriors/Immortals etc...), A2 basic and 2 CCWs. They can then basically dish out a decent amount of attacks but with no special attacks; Despite past imagery I can see these guys as hunched Necrons driven insane by a spark of their past life, sprinting towards the living to take their souls and end their worthless lives. Wraiths should be given Rending as well as WS4 and I6. Pariahs should be WS5 I5. But stick with A1 basic. This should allow them to bring those awesome Warscythes to bear before getting cut down. They have few attacks, but evidently they can pile on the hurt onto 'Elitist' squads such as Terminators.

This is my view =) Enjoy =)

Lord Damocles
01-02-2010, 20:45
If noone has noticed, Necrons are based (albeit loosely) on Roman Fluff.
*cough*Egyptian*cough*

Ba'al Starslayer
01-02-2010, 20:50
Aye Ok so the Egyptian theme is stronger, with the designs and so-on, but their tactics revolve more around Roman-esque ideas. As far as I'm aware, Egyptians favoured faster warfare, with a strong basis of archers and a large cavalry/chariot detachment.

d6juggernaut
01-02-2010, 20:58
Aye Ok so the Egyptian theme is stronger, with the designs and so-on, but their tactics revolve more around Roman-esque ideas. As far as I'm aware, Egyptians favoured faster warfare, with a strong basis of archers and a large cavalry/chariot detachment.

I agree, Tomb King from fantasy is how an Egyptian army is played (in theory anyways), the thing is the whole phalanx tactic simply doesn't work in 5th edition with all the pie-plates and vehicles, you'll have to make them quite resilient and expensive for them to survive the foot slogging process and still do decent damage. I say more teleport and more deep striking, so give Lords wargear that enables particular units to chain teleport to cover huge distances to surprise and outflank your enemies.

Cheeslord
01-02-2010, 21:54
Personally I like the statlines of the current Necron forces( I think having the same WS and BS for all necron units makes a thematic sense as they all use the same computer program for fighting - they have S and t varying instead as some are built bigger/stronger/with rare alloys), they just need more customisable options (especially some to make Warriors not super-vulnerable in combat) and new unit types.

Mark.

thestonehill
01-02-2010, 23:33
If the c'tan are to stay then i think a must would be to make them eternal warriors (or at least immune to instant death), as a hive tyrant with boneswords can currently one shot 360 points... which is supposed to be a god, and this seems a little off...

I think a sensible idea would be to make the c'tan apoc only, but then the necron list gets VERY boring, they would need to chuck in some variation in the form of characters to make it a little more attractive... after all, the point of releasing a new army is for it to sell loads isnt it? and a boring army isnt likely to sell that well.

One argument against characters is that they dont fit the fluff, however im sure some demi-gods or "beefed up" lords can be shoe-horned in there somewhere!

As for the rest, i think something needs to happen to make flayed ones more viable, and wraiths could do with power weapons as they currently get pwned against things with power armour (most things). A new heavy choice would be nice, perhaps monolith weapon choices would be the most "fulff-friendly" answer...

Torga_DW
01-02-2010, 23:50
What if necrons had ATSKNF? It would make bigger troop squads attractive, as they wouldn't get wiped out the second they got into melee.

d6juggernaut
02-02-2010, 00:00
What if necrons had ATSKNF? It would make bigger troop squads attractive, as they wouldn't get wiped out the second they got into melee.

Either stubborn or ATSKNF could work, though I'm leaning more towards stubborn because that fits their fluff more and the whole ATSKblah thing is basically a marine exclusive, although they can always give it a new name for crons. The reason they get wiped easily is mostly due to the fact that they usually strike last and a standard warrior squad rarely has some kind of upgrade like power weapon sergent to give them an edge, which means they lose at combat easily and they get no WBB. Aside from that they fight just as well as tactical marines (not too good either but you get the idea).

Sygerrik
02-02-2010, 04:56
C'tan don't belong on the table. Period. These are entities that are older than the Chaos Gods, older than the Warp, even. They're unkillable by any means short of each other. They eat stars and crap doom. I don't even think they belong on Apocalypse; you could buy the Nightbringer as a Strategic Asset. "Place the 10" pie plate and move it 10d6 inches. Every model touched by it takes a S D hit and any squad suffering casualties goes to ground." Over the top, but you get my point. I think the idea of a crazed Necron lord with an enhanced necrodermis that thinks it's a C'tan would be more appropriate to fill the "giant crazy Monstrous Creature" slot the C'tan fill now. I mean, the Necrons' one super-technology is their amazing living metal that can take any form and has miraculous properties of durability, precision and self-repair. No reason a Necron Lord couldn't be made of more of the stuff.

Vhalyar
02-02-2010, 06:26
C'tan don't belong on the table. Period. These are entities that are older than the Chaos Gods, older than the Warp, even. They're unkillable by any means short of each other. They eat stars and crap doom. I don't even think they belong on Apocalypse; you could buy the Nightbringer as a Strategic Asset. "Place the 10" pie plate and move it 10d6 inches. Every model touched by it takes a S D hit and any squad suffering casualties goes to ground." Over the top, but you get my point. I think the idea of a crazed Necron lord with an enhanced necrodermis that thinks it's a C'tan would be more appropriate to fill the "giant crazy Monstrous Creature" slot the C'tan fill now. I mean, the Necrons' one super-technology is their amazing living metal that can take any form and has miraculous properties of durability, precision and self-repair. No reason a Necron Lord couldn't be made of more of the stuff.

Technically, both the Deceiver and the Nightbringer are extremely weak compared to their former selves due to their stasis sleep. The Nightbringer in particular is kind of screwed at the moment due to sleep + starvation + the Deceiver spiriting his weapon away into the warp.

So while they should be immensely powerful and beyond tabletop, at the moment they're both rather hungry and not that mighty as they were.

Though I agree I'd rather see Lords take on the aspect of a C'tan than the C'tans themselves bothering with a skirmish for a bare chunk of asteroid rock in some forgotten corner of space. Abaddon does bother with that though!

The Ginger Ninja
02-02-2010, 08:31
Wouldn't it be nice if Pariahs had the same stats except for I5 and instead of a inbuilt gauss blaster an inbuilt staff of light?

Thanatos_elNyx
02-02-2010, 09:12
Whilst not as powerful as a God (Since they technically aren't, they're just idolised as such).

Well that depends on your definition of a God doesn't it? While the C'Tan aren't as powerful as the Judeo-Christian God they would be comparable to the Norse and Greek Gods. So I think God is a fair enough name for them.


*cough*Egyptian*cough*

Indeeed, though I think it would be cooler to concentrate on the Lovecraftian element.

Thousand Sons already have Egyptian covered.

Lord Damocles
02-02-2010, 11:34
C'tan don't belong on the table.
-snip-
I don't even think they belong on Apocalypse
While I agree that the *actual* C'tan don't really belong in a standard 1500pt game (Essence of C'tan. Job done), the usual 'make them Apocalypse only' also confuzzles me somewhat.

The little information we have on the C'tan actually getting their hands dirty as it were (Nightbringer, Deus Ex Mechanicus, The Scopios Incident, and to a lesser extent, The Birth of Fear), doesn't show them as apocalyptic style super-killer-monsters-of-ultimate-doom. They actually come across as reasonably tame considering...

Tau-Lover
02-02-2010, 12:10
Flayed ones getting power weapons
Destoyers getting 2 wounds - 50 pts for a model with 1 wound? - no thx

MoonReaper
02-02-2010, 16:39
In the new codex I just really hope they keep the Deceiver and Nightbringer models with useful abilities. The actual models are amazingly cool to just ditch them.

Also, I hope we see Necron lords with even better support abilities like psychic powers. Necron lords scream "Ancient Lich from the tomb that commands skeletons" and I hope they give options in gameplay to supoport that playstyle.

PaulmanMN
02-02-2010, 16:41
All I can say is PLEEEEZE..


NO MORE PHASE OUT.

Thank you.

Cheeslord
02-02-2010, 17:20
Not psychic powers. The C'tan don't like them much. Plus Eldar can weewee all over anyone relying on psychic powers with their Magic Rock that Stops Anyone Using Psychic powers for about 20 points.

Possibly more antipsychic powers however (maybe a reworking of Pariahs so they actually counter psykers which is sort of what they are meant to do (like the Shadows in babylon 5 started incorporating psykers into their ships to compensate for their psychic weakness)

Mark.

Gav2k
02-02-2010, 18:15
Well the way I see it, Phase Out is used to balance WBB, right? But we want to keep WBB, as it's more in-keeping with the fluffy feel of the Necrons. Why not reach a compromise?
Instead of, say, 25% Phase Out, we could have after 25% casualties there's no more WBB? Or maybe after 25% the Necrons lose their Armour Save?
Or just 10% Phase Out?

I don't like Phase Out but if they made it a bit less harsh then I'd be happy to keep it if it meant keeping WBB.

Void Reaper
03-02-2010, 04:30
Feel no Pain instead of WBB;
WS 3, I 1, T5, Save 4+
Someone on here posted "slow and purposeful" unless in range of a lord---very cool!

C'Tan only in Apocalypse! They are FAR too powerful to be in the game normally.

They need some new units---preferably infantry, to keep the footslogger feel. Perhaps some Lieutenants to back up the lord--weaker stat lines, but some ability to enhance the Warriors. I'd like them to emphasize the possible wear and tear 65 million years of inactivity might cause.

And make the &#&@^! monolith significantly more points, OR reel it back in and reduce it's silliness.

I haven't played Necrons in 5th Edition, but HATED it during 4th Edtion. After I adjusted tactics, I rarely lost against them, but I found the games painfully boring and irritating (due, primarily, to WBB and the ridiculous abilities of the Monolith). Phase Out, in my opinion, encouraged Necron players to be highly conservative in game play--also irritating, considering the game encourages everyone else to be bloodthirsty nutters. (I figure this isn't a problem anymore because taking objectives forces Necron Warriors out of their hidey-holes).

I love the Necrons from a fluff perspective; I like that they are meant to be a short range fire fight army; and I enjoy the models. Fix them, GW! Fix them and I might even buy an army!

Spiney Norman
03-02-2010, 09:07
Feel no Pain instead of WBB;
WS 3, I 1, T5, Save 4+
Someone on here posted "slow and purposeful" unless in range of a lord---very cool!


No way army-wide SaP is not cool at all, I want CC to be more of an option for Necrons in a new codex, not less. SaP would totally kill pariahs and flayed ones even more than they are now, they'd only ever be useful if they had a Lord to baby sit them, and I don't want to be forced to take 2 foot lords in every game I play just to keep my CC troops moving.

Ok, so warriors and immortals probably wouldn't care, mine almost only ever move by teleportation anyway, and it wouldn't effect jetbike movement, but deep striking flayed ones would be a completely non-viable tactic unless you could deep strike a lord with them.

And that profile, are you serious? I'm guessing it comes with a hefty drop in points, maybe down to the price of a tactical marine. Almost half the guns in the game will negate that armour save so the "implacable legions" will have to hide away in cover for the entire game just to get a save. Sure T5 is nice, but reducing WBB to FnP further detracts from their resilience, and the low I will give them all the same CC problems they have in the current edition coupled with the fact that they will be easier to kill.

People who hate necrons should not be allowed to post in a necron wishlist...

azimaith
03-02-2010, 09:25
I think its a lot more fair to give crons assault weapons and say they can't run unless they are also fleet of foot. Running for most crons seem weird.

I would want to see a necron warrior statline something like...
WS3 BS4 S5 T5 W1 I1 A1 Ld10 Sv 4+i
Feel No Pain, can not run, stubborn.

At the same time I'd upgrade their guns too:
R:18" S3 AP6 Assault 2/Assault 4 in 12".
Standard gauss rules. (This is an upgrade in killing power.)

Thanatos_elNyx
03-02-2010, 09:32
Not psychic powers. The C'tan don't like them much. Plus Eldar can weewee all over anyone relying on psychic powers with their Magic Rock that Stops Anyone Using Psychic powers for about 20 points.

The Runes of Warding are no where near as effective as a Psychic Hood or a Runic Force Weapon.

But whilst I don't think Necrons should have Psychic Powers, they should have more special abilities that simulate them.
e.g. The Deceivers power that causes even enemies to run.

More of those please.

Void Reaper
03-02-2010, 18:37
No way army-wide SaP is not cool at all, I want CC to be more of an option for Necrons in a new codex, not less. SaP would totally kill pariahs and flayed ones even more than they are now, they'd only ever be useful if they had a Lord to baby sit them, and I don't want to be forced to take 2 foot lords in every game I play just to keep my CC troops moving.

Ok, so warriors and immortals probably wouldn't care, mine almost only ever move by teleportation anyway, and it wouldn't effect jetbike movement, but deep striking flayed ones would be a completely non-viable tactic unless you could deep strike a lord with them.

And that profile, are you serious? I'm guessing it comes with a hefty drop in points, maybe down to the price of a tactical marine. Almost half the guns in the game will negate that armour save so the "implacable legions" will have to hide away in cover for the entire game just to get a save. Sure T5 is nice, but reducing WBB to FnP further detracts from their resilience, and the low I will give them all the same CC problems they have in the current edition coupled with the fact that they will be easier to kill.

People who hate necrons should not be allowed to post in a necron wishlist...

OK, slow and purposeful too much, but I don't think they should be able to Run unless in range of a lord (or a Lieutenant--a stripped down Lord, perhaps 2 for one HQ slot?)

WBB was interesting from a fluff perspective, but it was a clunky rule. Replacing it with FnP would make things easier for everyone. If within range of a res orb, allow FnP regardless of the attacking weapon.

OK, 3+ save, but remain at T4, but no complaining when a battle cannon ignores their FnP.

I'm fully in favor of giving the Necrons more deep-striking abilities than other armies---LOTS more, other than demons. it would help them flavor wise and help the Necron player make up for his lack of speed on foot. More than WBB, I think it would increase the opponent's nervousness---WBB only increased his irritation.

My biggest gripe of all with the Necrons is not really rule based (though the monolith has produced more swearing by me than anything else in this game), as it is, currently, just a boring army. There are not many unit choices, nor the ability to particularly modify the equipment/weaponry of those units.

If a necron warrior drops in basic lethality/resilience, I'd love to see unit options---special rules for the whole squad, new weapons to add on, etc etc, so that a warrior squad gets to have some more variety.

And people who don't like the current Necron list should definitely be posting on this wishlist. Just as Necron players want to be more competitive in the 5th Edition, non-necron players want to be excited to play the game when we see a Necron army across the table, not groaning, "Ugh, these guys again?"