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Hennesy
14-11-2009, 13:51
Hi lads… and ladys of course ;-)

I am not entirely new to this forum as I’f been a silent reader for month but now I got some interesting info from a guy working at GW headquarters so I created an account to tell you.

New Tomb Kings will be out in May 2010. So they will be the last armybook before 8th edition.

I will list up the information he gave me in the following, text in italic are my personal comments on it. Where I write nothing about a unit, it means that either the unit stays as it is or my source had no information about any changes. “Will stay the same” means that the rule or unit would stay unchanged.
Edit: My source didn't know anything about any new units but as he isn't a game designer himself that doesn't mean that there will be none. Personally I am quite shure that there will be at least new miniatures for the skeletons but that is just gessing, I have not heard anything about it.


Undead rule:
- Will stay the same in principle but you may take a stand&shoot reaction now.
That one was expected since the banshee may stand&shoot as well.

Magic:
- Will also stay the same with some minor changes:
-- Incantation of summoning reanimates D6 / 2D6 wounds
-- Tomb princes have 6” range like tomb kings
-- Tomb kings and princes have the option to generate dispel dice and energy dice (dispel spells in play only)
Pft... the adjustment in effectiveness of the incantations is ok, it should be level with the vampire one this way. Princes range is good. Dispell dice for Kings and Princes? Great, I only hope it won't be overpriced.

Undead construct rule:
- Will stay the same

“It came from below…” rule:
- Will stay the same

The curse:
- Will stay the same

Casket of souls
- Will have three different incantations to choose:
-- One incantation healing D3 wounds of all friendly units and characters on the field
-- One incantation similar to the current one
-- One incantation moving D3 units
- Will grant a ward save to it’s crew and attached priests
That sounds great!

Tomb prince:
- Magic changes, see above
- Strength 5
- If a tomb prince is the general you may take one unit of chariots as a core unit
- May be given the battle standard
Looking at the Scar Veteran S and T5 for heros was to be expected. Battle standard for the prince is great.

Battle standard bearer:
- New name (unknown to me)
- May be given the battle standard but may be used without as well
- May ride on a skeleton horse or in a chariot
- No magic
- Killing blow
- WS5, S4, T4, A3
A simple fighting hero without magic and an avarage profile. Ok, especially for friendly games with limited magic but I think the Prince will stay the better choice.

Skeleton warriors:
- Wear light armour without further costs
Decrease of one point would have been better but better than nothing.

Skeleton light horsemen:
- May be given light armour
- May be given Spears and Shields
That shoud give us some interesting taktical options.

Skeleton heavy horsemen:
- Are out!
I won't bemoan the loss of them.

Tomb Guard:
- 9(!) points/model
All right, Grave Guard cost 10 (?) points/model. And they have heavy armour and can make march movements... 9 points is ok I think.

Ushabti:
- 4+ armour save (including undead construct)
- 5+ ward save
- M6
- 55 points/model
That should make Ushabti usable. Not more but usable.

Carrions:
- S4
- Cheaper
Stronger and cheaper? Great!

Tomb scorpion:
- more expensive (about 100 points)
- 5 wounds (!)
Wow, the most extrem change I think. Scorpions with unit size 5 will be nasty!

Bone Giant:
- equipment options (similar to Warhammer chronicles)
The options have been a baublery in the past, they will stay a baublery in the future.

Screaming Skull Catapult:
- Every model touched is hit, not only on 4+.
The way it is in the Skaven book. Maybe a hint of what to come in the 8th edition rule book?

Greetings
Hennesy

Ultimate Life Form
14-11-2009, 13:56
In May? Boy, they really pick up the pace after being dormant for so long...

Grave Guard by the way costs 12 pts (before upgrades)

Vermin-thing
14-11-2009, 14:09
Nothing new? Thats surprising.

Karham
14-11-2009, 14:11
Well, interesting new if it's true.

But since i am a TK player i HOPE it's true :D

Hennesy
14-11-2009, 14:15
>Grave Guard by the way costs 12 pts (before upgrades)
12? Ok, -1 for light armour, -1 for not marching... 9 is cheap!

Karham
14-11-2009, 14:16
Maybe they will have Heay Armour option?

Avian
14-11-2009, 14:21
Nothing new? Thats surprising.
FWIW, extensive rumour posts a long time before the book is out and no mention of the new units (there are always new units) are two of the clearest signs of someone wishlisting.

Vermin-thing
14-11-2009, 14:26
I'll take this with a Skaven mine full of salt.

A lot of those things need changing, the construct rules, to name one.

static grass
14-11-2009, 14:35
FWIW, extensive rumour posts a long time before the book is out and no mention of the new units (there are always new units) are two of the clearest signs of someone wishlisting.

Well dwarfs never got any new units with the last book, but yes I take your point. Any list that is basically "increase stat here, reduce cost there" is probably just wishlisting.

Durloth
14-11-2009, 14:44
Bah! Don`t listen to those Norwegian naysayers!

While any rumour these days have to be taken with a grain of salt, I think this sounds rather credible and in accordance with what I`ve heard most TK-players want for their army.

Ultimate Life Form
14-11-2009, 14:51
this sounds [...] in accordance with what I`ve heard most TK-players want for their army.

Notice the problem?

Durloth
14-11-2009, 15:32
@ULF: You`re right, but while it may be a bit naive, I actually believe that GW from time to time listens to their customers and maybe, just maybe that may be the case re: Tomb Kings. Why make loads of new units, if players don`t want them? Especially if they don`t plan to make new models for all of them, as in the Skaven book...

mrtn
14-11-2009, 15:32
FWIW, extensive rumour posts a long time before the book is out and no mention of the new units (there are always new units) are two of the clearest signs of someone wishlisting.
FWIW, Hennesy never claimed that these would be the only changes, just that this is what he's heard. But then I prefer to thank people for what they give me, not moan about what they didn't.

@Hennesy: Thanks for the rumours.

Imbuto
14-11-2009, 15:48
Well but I guess that when someone heards about a rumour, the first and most interesting rumoured stuff is about a new unit. Why there's not any rumour about a new unit? Not to give a new flashy unit is a horrible idea, cause the attention for TK (already at ground level) will not raise, and they will not make new TK players.

Instead, if u create some new rare choices, and new skeletons, there u are: a new army with new models and new rules, a modern army, competitive and strong.

Gazak Blacktoof
14-11-2009, 15:55
As a tomb king player I think some of it sounds fine, other things seem a bit off- but then I feel that way when army books are released too, so I wouldn't be suprprised if these are close to the truth.

Terrible rumours-

Skull catapult auto-hits- it's good for its points now, this will make it seriously overpowered

Cheap tomb guard- there's a mismatch between the tomb guard points and the points paid for skeletons in these rumours. I wouldn't expect to see many skeleton infantry.

5 wound scorpions- that wouldn't be too bad so long as they get a specific listed unit strength. Rank breaking tunnelers are bad news for the game and we've already got one army with them.

If princes can be the BSB, you have to ask what the point would be in retaining the icon bearer.


Personally, I was hoping the casket would go in a unit instead of being exposed and vulnerable.

Scelerat
14-11-2009, 16:19
You know, at this point in the year I don't care about particular rumours. I care about how close to the truth is "May 2010". We have plenty of time to find out rumours. I just hope they are only 6 months away!

druchii7
14-11-2009, 16:20
remember you can "heal" double the warriors with the incantations...

Desert Rain
14-11-2009, 16:37
Thanks for sharing Hennesy!
GW is really speeding up the release schedule, Skaven is barely out when Beasts are announced and then shortly after there seems to be a new Tomb Kings book and then 8th edition in the summer. 2010 is going to be a great year for fantasy I'm sure of it.
Now I'm just crossing fingers for some new High Elf models!

Hennesy
14-11-2009, 16:40
FWIW, extensive rumour posts a long time before the book is out and no mention of the new units (there are always new units) are two of the clearest signs of someone wishlisting.
:rolleyes: I told you that if I didn't wirte anything about a task, I have no information on it. My source didn't know anything about new units but that doesn't mean that there are none. He isn't a game designer himself.
He also didn't have any information on magic items, still I' sure they will be in ;)

StefDa
14-11-2009, 17:16
I think it is better to put new things in books without releasing the models, than cutting back on the number of choices but releasing all of them. Maybe that's just me.

Bk rage
14-11-2009, 17:38
I did see Skeleton heavy horsemen out, Ushabti cheaper an more stuff
that sound like a Rumour, That is to good to be true. But the man said it
just a Rumour.

Marauder Carl
14-11-2009, 17:41
I think it is better to put new things in books without releasing the models, than cutting back on the number of choices but releasing all of them. Maybe that's just me.

I agree- I can mash something up if I want it bad enough, and the secondary market would probably do well in plugging the gap, -which is probably the #1 issue in them keeping it to a minimum.

I never did make a WAlter for myself though, but will probably make a Skabomination for a friend because the modeling opportunity looks too fun to pass up.

Dooks Dizzo
14-11-2009, 17:48
Pretty specific rumors from 'a guys at GW headquarters', did you have a notepad? Which HQ are you speaking of by the by?

Gazak Blacktoof
14-11-2009, 17:48
remember you can "heal" double the warriors with the incantations...

You'll lose less tomb guard though thanks to their superior defencive abilites, so it evens out. The offensive abilites are well worth the few points listed in the rumour.

Jinra
14-11-2009, 18:03
Holy Shizz, if this is true 2010 is going to be crazy busy. Really hope some of the models get updated, more plastics for the win.

@Marauder Carl, mate that picture is epic! welcome to Warseer.

knightime98
14-11-2009, 18:22
My sincere wishlist change is to make their magic more in line with WHFB regular magic system. Meaning you do need a minimum of 3 to cast. All their characters are casters and always cast no matter what. Having 6 or 7 bound spells a turn makes it so the TK player can almost always get at least 2 of them off whichever ones he wants. By making all the casters, "wizards", will give the notion of other magic items affecting them (Aldred's Casket of Sorcery, and Ring of Hotek for example.). Of course, I expect all the their wizards to be exempt from miscasts (although the spell/incantation will fail). All in all this is a great opportunity to fix their magic system. The idea they are untouchable from all the bad part of casting and immune because they are not classed as a "wizard" is pure non-sense. That is the only issue that I have with TK's.

CaliforniaGamer
14-11-2009, 18:44
Looks like the partial hit concept is going away. That makes all template attacks much much better. I have to sit down and think about the winners and losers in such a scenario.

Chiron
14-11-2009, 18:56
With a normal magic phase TK's become slightly underpowered Vampire Counts... without, well there strong and keep the opponent guessing which is always good

knightime98
14-11-2009, 19:04
slightly underpowered VC.
Just what the doctor ordered as VC is broken.
That would be perfect!

Vandelan
14-11-2009, 19:22
There have been a number of heavy rumors pointing at Tomb Kings next year, but I don't know if it'll be as soon as May, especially considering the even heavier and more solidified rumors for Beastmen.

I'm going to take this with a grain of salt, maybe more for that matter.

knightime98
14-11-2009, 19:33
I concur with Vandelan on May release being too early.

Skywave
14-11-2009, 19:44
This look nice, most stuff said here as rumor would be welcome (maybe except the 5 wounds scorpion).

Stand and shoot was something I wished personnally, I hope it's in.

Standard bearer look as useless as before, guess they needed it to fill a space. The prince being able to carry the standard remove any saving grace this character could have, wich is good 50pts + banner.

The tomb guards being 9pts seems odd, when skeleton stay at 8pts.

Heavy horsemen doesn't seem to be out, just both cavalry mashed into one choice, the heavy one as option/upgrade. Unless some change though, the heavy type will still be worthless.

Ushabti getting ward, nice but I would have prefered maybe T5, and a slight point decrease instead (with the rumored 4+ save).

Scorpion are pretty much a no brainer now, if they gain US5, they would be much more feared/annoying for the enemy. I love to use 2 or 3 at the same time, I hope they don't become too broken so i can still enjoy them (without ruining the fun for my oponent).

Screaming skull will be brutal if this is true. New rule or not, I hope their's a small point increase for that.


Thanks Hennesy for the rumor, always fun to read them!

Enigmatik1
14-11-2009, 19:48
slightly underpowered VC.
Just what the doctor ordered as VC is broken.
That would be perfect!

For the love of all that's Holy, Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts are two distinct armies. Other than being Undead, they have very few similarities and I personally would like to keep it that way.

I realize you have a personal vendetta against Vampire Counts, but seriously leave Tomb Kings out of that. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the current TK magic system. In fact, it and the characters are the primary reasons the army can be even remotely competitive currently. TK magic can't blow you off the table, except for the Casket of Souls, and if that blows you off the table, you were simply very unlucky.

The Incantations themselves are perfectly balanced within the context of the army as it stands now, except Sekhubi's Incantation of Vengeance is largely useless in its current incarnation in lieu of the other three, but that's whatever. What you're proposing is a massive overhaul that would change the feel and function of the entire army, which simply isn't necessary.

Enrico
14-11-2009, 19:54
I realize you have a personal vendetta against Vampire Counts, but seriously leave Tomb Kings out of that. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the current TK magic system. In fact, it and the characters are the primary reasons the army can be even remotely competitive currently. TK magic can't blow you off the table, except for the Casket of Souls, and if that blows you off the table, you were simply very unlucky.

I agree. knigtime98 has no idea what he is talking about. Tomb Kings magic is so weak that even when they get their 1 or 2 spells off it still doesn't have a huge impact on the game.

If the Tomb Kings aren't getting marching of some sort (WTF! Undead legions, more than anyone else should be relentlessly marching forward) then they NEED to get those spells off to have an army that is marginally faster than Dwarfs.

Isabel
14-11-2009, 20:13
Yea, I'm suprised to hear someone say that they want TK magic to change... It's the one thing that really sets us apart and makes the army interesting. If they did, I'm sure the vast majority of TK players would be thinking twice on playing this army. I'll keep my faith that GW wont make such an incredibly poor choice.

knightime98
14-11-2009, 20:17
I realize you have a personal vendetta against Vampire Counts, but seriously leave Tomb Kings out of that. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the current TK magic system.

1. It's not a vendetta against VC. Everyone knows they are broke for too many reasons. I simply replied to someone else's comments in that regard.

2. You say, "nothing" wrong. I disagree. If the Tomb King player wants to get a flank charge on you - it's a GIVEN. Meaning that he can cast the charge/move BOUND spell 7 times until it goes.
a. Cast it - dispel it!
b. Cast it - dispel it!
c. Cast it - dispel it!
d. Cast it - dispel it!
e. Cast it - dispel it! (out of dispel dice now - assuming that I had 7 or 8 dispel dice to begin with!)
(a-e is assuming that I am fortunate enough to meet your rolls)
f. Cast it - scroll it!
g. Cast it - scroll it! (Now I'm out of scrolls! - Your done casting also - sweet!)
h. Surprise - Pop the jar and now you get the game winning charge off!

It is all a matter of spam casting that is frustrating. Spam casting that has no chance to fail and virtually guaranteed you get to do what you want. Same deal every time. Charge, Charge, Charge, Charge, Charge, Charge, Charge, oh did I win yet..
So, YES there is something wrong with their magic system. They need an inherent failure chance to cast! Plus they break the idea and mold that some of the so-called casters are not "wizards" so items that affect wizards somehow don't affect them. Of all things in TK, the magic system is the only thing that I think needs fixing. Their units are not over powered or annoying, I'm fine with the ITP, fear causers, never take a break test bit. I just don't like the entirely fail safe approach. If there is no chance for failure why are you playing them.. No fun in my book - no gamble at all. It's completely the conservatives army. Just my thoughts on it anyhow.

Lastly, the idea of a US 5 Scorpion is absurd. Only if it does not tunnel and starts off in your deployment zone would that be acceptable (kind of like a chariot with a character in it). In no way, would that be fair. Something you can't target pops up AND charges in the same turn - that would now negate ranks... NO WAY! I'd quit warhammer! It's game breaking.

Marauder Carl
14-11-2009, 20:19
@Marauder Carl, mate that picture is epic! welcome to Warseer.

Thanks! -though I've been around since Portent and Brother Frog and all that, (and quite often too). I just never have much to say... Barbarian King of the Lurkers I guess.

On topic, I've never played TK, but picked up some chariots and Tomb Guardians in a recent trade and I'm pleased they will possibly be out again in 2010. I just hope to get new skellie sculpts in the style of the updated VC skeletons before collecting them. I don't like the current TK ones much anymore.

Enrico
14-11-2009, 20:22
It is all a matter of spam casting that is frustrating. Spam casting that has no chance to fail and virtually guaranteed you get to do what you want. Same deal every time. Charge, Charge, Charge, Charge, Charge, Charge, Charge, oh did I win yet..
So, YES there is something wrong with the magic system. They need an inherent failure chance to cast! Plus they break the idea and mold that some of the so-called casters are not "wizards" so items that affect wizards somehow don't affect them. Of all things in TK, the magic system is the only thing that I think needs fixing. Their units are not over powered or annoying, I'm fine with the ITP, fear causers, never take a break test bit. I just don't like the entirely fail safe approach. If there is no chance for failure why are you playing them.. No fun in my book - no gamble at all. It's completely the conservatives army. Just my thoughts on it anyhow.

Because their units are so weak that even when they get a flank charge they can "fail" to break your unit? Every game with Tomb Kings is a gamble because they're not really good at much (in my opinion they aren't good at anything) EXCEPT recasting the same spell again and again to try and get a meagre benefit.

If you let them get their unit onto your flank with their pathetic (yes even chariots) movement, so he is in position to cast that spell you've misplayed.

Isabel
14-11-2009, 20:26
Wow, what TK army are you playing against? Where the hell did you come up with that kind of magic phase? Ok... assuming for some crazy reason that the TK player had every... single... spellcaster... in his army in this one exact spot within range of this one unit.... to cast a spell that many times you would need to be playing a 3k+ game. My TK army is magic heavy and I have a max of 5 spells not including bounds. And besides, if someone is going to invest 1200 points worth of models to get that one unit to charge... HE SHOULD.

Chiron
14-11-2009, 20:27
Because their units are so weak that even when they get a flank charge they can "fail" to break your unit? Every game with Tomb Kings is a gamble because they're not really good at much (in my opinion they aren't good at anything) EXCEPT recasting the same spell again and again to try and get a meagre benefit.

Example from todays 1000 point game... a unit of chariots in the front, one in the side of a unit of Silver Helms, without the Tomb Prince in one of them and a lovely challenge it would have been drawn combat at best for me.

mikkjel
14-11-2009, 20:27
This list seems somewhat boring, tbh. A lot of the changes seem reasonable, but as I see it they are making some choices even less likely to be taken by buffing the others.

Who would take an icon bearer if a prince can have the icon?

Who would take skeleton warriors if for one point more you get killing blow, a toughness, a strength, a weapon skill, some leadership (for crumbling) and the ability to have more expensive magic banner?

Who would take ushabti (even better ones - somewhat like treekin scaled a bit more towards offense) over rank breaking (possibly) scorpions and s4 carrion (for less points).

I was holding the TK book to better standards, actually, mainly due to the fact that its currently the most balanced book IMO. The main (and possibly only) flaw is that it has quite bad internal balance, with only one viable rare choice, 3 viable special, one character setup, etc.

Scelerat
14-11-2009, 20:38
Remember these are early rumours. Don't throw your knickers in the air just yet.
EDIT: In the 8th ed rumor thread someone said TKs were "three books away". If by books he means books AND codexes, then it makes sense:
Jan -> Tyranids
Feb -> Beasts
MAr/Apr -> possibly 40k
May -> Happiness in a Sarcophagus.

orlanth1000
14-11-2009, 20:49
I'm sure you wouldn't, but please don't reveal what HQ your source is.....you will only get people in to trouble, less said about your source the better. You don't have to reveal origins of your source, no matter how much people on here moan at you.

With not as many rumours around here as there used to be, I appreciate the information.

I have alot of TK still sitting in boxes so I have been waiting eagerly for the army to be updated :)

mikkjel
14-11-2009, 21:33
Im just a little caught up in the catch 22 of not wanting the rumours to be true while wanting true rumours. I think there are plenty of things they could have done with TK to make them somewhat more competitive while still keeping in character, such as making character mount chariots a part of their profile, so people would actually take them, much like the system is in 40k.

Isabel
14-11-2009, 21:48
If they left them the same, just updated the models, I'd be just fine with that. Maybe a tweak here and there to make them viable at lower points games.

-Grimgorironhide-
14-11-2009, 21:53
I can see them coming out in may because I think Harry mentioned that BOC won't be the last 7th ed book and TK have been rumoured to come in after them.
Everything else though I would take with a huge grain of salt because if its may then they are still 6 months away.

Though I would love to be able to stand and shoot.
I would also love carrions to be str 4 because even though they are a great unit my guys bounce off any enemy models they attack. My guys are pretty embarissing when they attack.

cheers.

knightime98
14-11-2009, 22:14
S4 flyers - I'm not for it. They'd kill warmachine crews even faster!
Your 60 point unit kills 2 cannons and a mortar. Yeah, 60 points for 275 points. How wonderful - not to mention the carrion can fly their 20" then have the movement spell on them to charge first turn before the cannon can even get a shot off. How's that fair. Need balance not uber flyers.

Slacker
14-11-2009, 22:26
There was a stretch of time when specific game releases were three months apart, or that was at least what GW claimed they wanted to sustain. Mind you, this was a couple of years ago, when I was running a large indy shop, and before the economic meltdown, but I could see them try and maintain it. 2009 was certainly a big year for 40K, no reason they couldn't go big nuts and drop 4 or 5 books in 2010 for Fantasy. Feb to May is three months.

Isabel
14-11-2009, 22:41
S4 flyers - I'm not for it. They'd kill warmachine crews even faster!
Your 60 point unit kills 2 cannons and a mortar. Yeah, 60 points for 275 points. How wonderful - not to mention the carrion can fly their 20" then have the movement spell on them to charge first turn before the cannon can even get a shot off. How's that fair. Need balance not uber flyers.

And that same 100 point cannon can take out a 400 point lord on turn 1. Your opinion of what is fair seems to favour what you play.

Acheldama82
14-11-2009, 23:22
Veri nice to know but ...
To be honest i'm scared about buy new armyes if the 8th is confirmed after May, 4 now i'll take just new mini and armybook, don't wanna waste my money.

Enigmatik1
14-11-2009, 23:34
1. It's not a vendetta against VC. Everyone knows they are broke for too many reasons. I simply replied to someone else's comments in that regard.

Whatever, boss. I'm just going off of what I've seen in other threads. I really don't care either way how you feel about VC, since I don't play them and have no real interest in the army aside from when people make unfair comparisons between them and my beloved Tomb Kings (as anyone around these parts will tell you).


2. You say, "nothing" wrong. I disagree. If the Tomb King player wants to get a flank charge on you - it's a GIVEN. Meaning that he can cast the charge/move BOUND spell 7 times until it goes.
a. Cast it - dispel it!
b. Cast it - dispel it!
c. Cast it - dispel it!
d. Cast it - dispel it!
e. Cast it - dispel it! (out of dispel dice now - assuming that I had 7 or 8 dispel dice to begin with!)
(a-e is assuming that I am fortunate enough to meet your rolls)
f. Cast it - scroll it!
g. Cast it - scroll it! (Now I'm out of scrolls! - Your done casting also - sweet!)
h. Surprise - Pop the jar and now you get the game winning charge off!

Seven times? How is this possible at 2K? This is possible at 3K (I don't play 3K games). Even discounting the unlikelihood of doing this. Have you even bothered to seriously take a look at the units in the TK list? If one charge is going to lose you a game then you've already lost. Note: I either run TK/TP/LPx2 or HLP/TPx2/LP. I have 5 incantations in either list. Not 7. How many spells can a traditional army cast per turn at 2k?

You want to know how I win my games? Honestly? My war machines end up taking out a key unit or my Scorpions assassinate an important character. Period. The Tomb King army generally can't fight itself out of a wet paper bag and will probably be outnumbered due to high point costs (auto-breaking wha??). We're talking about Skeletons here, not Chaos Warriors...



It is all a matter of spam casting that is frustrating. Spam casting that has no chance to fail and virtually guaranteed you get to do what you want. Same deal every time. Charge, Charge, Charge, Charge, Charge, Charge, Charge, oh did I win yet..
So, YES there is something wrong with the magic system. They need an inherent failure chance to cast! Plus they break the idea and mold that some of the so-called casters are not "wizards" so items that affect wizards somehow don't affect them. Of all things in TK, the magic system is the only thing that I think needs fixing. Their units are not over powered or annoying, I'm fine with the ITP, fear causers, never take a break test bit. I just don't like the entirely fail safe approach. If there is no chance for failure why are you playing them.. No fun in my book - no gamble at all. It's completely the conservatives army. Just my thoughts on it anyhow.

So what? I'll reiterate the Tomb King magic phase is what makes the army even capable of being fielded at all as things stand now. Now you want to change this again why? I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you somehow got yourself pinned in a 3K game between a Tomb Guard "Deathstar" (yes it's in quotes for a reason) unit and a King and 2 Prince Chariot bomb. That's the ONLY way a single charge is going to cost you a game. Otherwise, you're still taking about getting flank/rear charged by SKELETONS. Who, regardless or where they attack you are going to lose combat for the TK side unless the TK player rolls lights out since they can't hit the pyramids they're buried in. Remember (and I swear everyone forgets this) autobreaking is predicated on WINNING combat, which requires HITTING and WOUNDING...two things Undead units are notoriously terrible at doing. We win whatever combats we win by virtue of our characters...expensive characters at that (especially that cursed High Liche Priest with ZERO offensive capabilities). Games for me are generally won with my Catapult and my Casket because decent opposition troops truck mine (except the Tomb Guard). I could understand where you're coming from if our units could do what you're saying by virtue of their own abilities (like Ghouls, Black/Blood Knights or Cairn Wraiths), but with Tomb Kings equivalent units DO NOT EXIST.



Lastly, the idea of a US 5 Scorpion is absurd. Only if it does not tunnel and starts off in your deployment zone would that be acceptable (kind of like a chariot with a character in it). In no way, would that be fair. Something you can't target pops up AND charges in the same turn - that would now negate ranks... NO WAY! I'd quit warhammer! It's game breaking.

Finally...something we agree on. The Tomb Scorpion does not need to be US5 and does not need five wounds. It's already too cheap for what it does and I would gladly pay 100 points per Scorpion as it is right now. I'd be happy with a 4+ armor save. Anything else above and beyond it's current incarnation is just being silly/greedy.

TigerCat86
14-11-2009, 23:35
1.

Lastly, the idea of a US 5 Scorpion is absurd. Only if it does not tunnel and starts off in your deployment zone would that be acceptable (kind of like a chariot with a character in it). In no way, would that be fair. Something you can't target pops up AND charges in the same turn - that would now negate ranks... NO WAY! I'd quit warhammer! It's game breaking.

Well, let me say you something about the tomb scorpion.
A tomb scorpion has a 40 x 40 base size and a unit strength of 3.
So it cannot negate ranks. ;)

knightime98
15-11-2009, 00:13
Thanks for reading the entire thread TigerCat86
where the original poster of this thread said that
Tomb Scorpions are rumored to be US 5 in the next
edition. Thanks again for keeping up!

knightime98
15-11-2009, 00:19
@Enigmatik1
Ok, I see your point on the so-called weak choices of your troops.
However, this is the way it plays out.
TK moves up and points any said unit at your flank
either chariot unit, horse cav, Tomb Guard.. w/e take your pick.
Now said unit then gets the move spell off. It negates ranks at the very least
and with now possibly outnumber. How are you not going to win that fight and now roll the flank of the entire line?
This all done by the fail safe magic!
Simply put - fail safe magic needs to be removed!
Have a chance for failure not just double 1's on the guy throwing two dice. Which in 20+ games against TK, has only happened once!

Once again, I only have a problem with the TK magic phase because it's just that fail safe. Over the top consistent!

Spiney Norman
15-11-2009, 00:30
I have to say I'm a little skeptical

Skeleton warriors unchanged points wise and Tomb Guard going for 9pts a model.

So, for the 1pt extra per model you'll pay for Tomb Guard, you're getting +1 on WS, S & T, plus a massive hike on Ld, not to mention magical KB attacks, skellies are underused as they are now as TG are an awesome deal for +4 pts, they will never see the table if the tomb guard rumour is true.

My next favourite is Ushabti, now I realise that these guys are a little underused as things stand, but lowering their cost by 10pts, upping their M value to 6, bettering their armour save by 1 AND giving them a 5+ ward? Compare them to lizardmen Kroxigor and tell me you really think this will happen.

I also can't see the point in a dedicated Battle standard hero who doesn't have any magic. The current icon bearer never gets used, and if the option for a Battle standard does go to a prince as well the only conceivable reason to field this BS hero completely disappears.

The Casket rumour is probably the one I'd find most credible, given what they've done recently with the likes of the EotG, and skaven plague burner I can see them wanting to broaden the scope of the Casket somewhat, but from your description its either going to be obscenely expensive or totally broken.

I don't suppose there was any indication of which special characters are going to get added (following the spec char fetish that has so far irreparably marred 7th Edition)? No-one's said anything about Sehenesmet? Maybe a priest spec char?

I'm gonna hold out for confirmation on these, besides, if there IS going to be a summer release of 8th Edition a may army book release is a really tight fit.

And now to deal with a little niggle

Their units are not over powered or annoying, I'm fine with the ITP, fear causers, never take a break test bit. I just don't like the entirely fail safe approach. If there is no chance for failure why are you playing them.. No fun in my book - no gamble at all. It's completely the conservatives army. Just my thoughts on it anyhow.

I can only assume you've had a bad experience with TK, I'm been playing the Kings since 2004ish and I can honestly say, out of the 5 armies I play (Lizardmen, Wood elves, Empire, O&G, TK) they are the most difficult to deploy effectively and the hardest to win with. In short, spend a year playing with a Tomb King army and tell me that there is "no chance of failure" with them. Reducing the random element is a good thing in my book, as the spells are well balanced for what they do, and the overall effect is to make TK players rely on good tactics rather than being left at the mercy of the dice. Do not be in any doubt, TK pay dearly in points for their magic reliability.

Granted the magic is reliable, but its also fairly short range, not to mention expensive and none of the spells are really that powerful. Now sure a well timed urgency incantation can turn the game around, but I honestly can't put together a list below 3k which can put out that many urgency incantations in a single phase (5 incants + the jar is the most you can get in the 2k bracket), not to mention you'd have to have all your casters within 12" (6" in the case of a King or in the unit for a prince) of the unit to be moved.

Whats more, almost every unit in the TK list bar the scorpion, and maybe chariots is overpriced, the reliability of TK magic is the only thing which allows TK players to get a reasonable return out of their units. Theres no way even a SSC would be worth the points asked for unless there was the chance of firing it twice.

knightime98
15-11-2009, 01:17
Theres no way even a SSC would be worth the points asked for unless there was the chance of firing it twice.

Are you kidding me? The SSC is way under priced for what it does!
Place Skull of foes on that thing and now take panic tests on -1 leadership for doing just a single wound in any unit. Also, do the jingle that let's it shoot twice in the same turn? I don't get to shoot my rock lobba twice and force you to take a panic test on a -1 and run off the board. Wow, think before you write man.. Seriously!

Spiney Norman
15-11-2009, 01:26
Please read what I said, I fully recognise that being able to fire a catapult twice is an advantage and so does the pts cost of the catapult. A Rock lobba is considerably cheaper than a SSC for that very reason.

I don't know what your problem re: TK magic is anyway, I rarely get more than 1, perhaps 2 incantations a turn off out of the 6 I will be casting, thats not any higher than most armies that operate under the normal magic system would hope to achieve, esp given the massive points investment I have to pump into my casters to get that level of magic. At 2000pts I am literally burning half of my army's points on casters, for the same amount of points in my Lizardmen army I get a LOT more magic potential by taking a Slann and an engine priest.

I'd hate to see you play against DoC or VC if you think 6th Ed Tomb Kings are broken.

Isabel
15-11-2009, 01:26
Are you kidding me? The SSC is way under priced for what it does!
Place Skull of foes on that thing and now take panic tests on -1 leadership for doing just a single wound in any unit. Also, do the jingle that let's it shoot twice in the same turn? I don't get to shoot my rock lobba twice and force you to take a panic test on a -1 and run off the board. Wow, think before you write man.. Seriously!

At this point, I'm convinced you are just trying to start fights on here. The rock lobba in your scenario would be 40pts cheaper. We also have to pay for an expensive hero choice to be able to use that 2nd shot. Think before you write man... Seriously...

Spiney Norman
15-11-2009, 01:36
desperately trying to pull this back on topic, can anyone corroborate these rumours? Some of them seem a little unrealistic and impractical to me.

knightime98
15-11-2009, 01:38
Please read what I said, I fully recognise that being able to fire a catapult twice is an advantage and so does the pts cost of the catapult. A Rock lobba is considerably cheaper than a SSC for that very reason.

I'd hate to see you play against DoC or VC if you think 6th Ed Tomb Kings are broken.

Now, take 2 catapults w/ skull of the foes and cause 4 panic test. Two in each magic phase, and 2 in each shooting phase (all on different targets of course). Tell me units aren't going to run off the board. I never said TK are broken. Rock lobba is 80 points and is priced about right. If your SSC isn't 160pts then it's under priced (because you get to shoot it twice as much AND cause panic at -1 ld).

Edit: Technically if you're a good guesser you can split the template between units and cause up to 8 panic tests per turn.. ALL at -1 Ld. I know that's asking an awful lot but the potential for that to happen is there.
End edit.


At this point, I'm convinced you are just trying to start fights on here. The rock lobba in your scenario would also be 40pts cheaper. We also have to pay for an expensive hero choice to be able to use that 2nd shot. Think before you write man... Seriously...

I do think before I write and I address each person in turn. Read above just a bit. Rock lobba's, Stone Throwers and such are priced right.. Like you don't need a general of your army to play (who coincidentally is automatically a caster). All your choices are casters (so, I believe). I have yet to see a TK character that doesn't throw magic. How is this a disadvantage? You spend points on characters (you mean that I don't????, I get my characters for free?). To wit; "Think before you write man... Seriously..."

Isabel
15-11-2009, 01:47
You pay for:
Rock Lobba + spell caster who can cast an attack spell

We pay for:
40pt more Catapult + twice as expensive hero choice who can make the catapult shoot once more and nothing else.

How's that broken?

Lilike
15-11-2009, 02:00
O&G is considered one of the worst armies in this edition (and needs to be updated) and I rarely see rock lobbers when I play against them. This makes me think that rock lobbers are overpriced if anything since they cannot even compete with the crap choices in the O&G special section.

With that said the SSC is seriously underpriced if you compare it to our other rare choice, you can get two SSC for the price of one BG which makes no sense seeing how a single SSC generally being more useful than a BG.

Spiney Norman
15-11-2009, 02:02
Now, take 2 catapults w/ skull of the foes and cause 4 panic test. Two in each magic phase, and 2 in each shooting phase (all on different targets of course). Tell me units aren't going to run off the board. I never said TK are broken. Rock lobba is 80 points and is priced about right. If your SSC isn't 160pts then it's under priced (because you get to shoot it twice as much AND cause panic at -1 ld).

Edit: Technically if you're a good guesser you can split the template between units and cause up to 8 panic tests per turn.. ALL at -1 Ld. I know that's asking an awful lot but the potential for that to happen is there.
End edit.

Firstly DON'T exaggerate to advance your point, Rock Lobbas are NOT 80pts, they are 70, (I play O&G too). My SSC costs 110 and has only ONE shot. Now understand that I have to buy a hero which costs more than the price of the catapult to get a CHANCE of firing a second shot, a hero which cannot do ANYTHING else other than cast his spell, so in effect my double firing catapult costs 225pts (over 3 times the cost of your rock lobba) and the second shot can be easily countered by expending a couple of dispel dice.

PLEASE NOTE; it is actually fewer points for me to purchase a second catapult than it is for me to purchase a priest to fire one catapult for a second time.

Lilike, don't compare the SSC to the worst value unit in the TK list, nobody fields a bone giant for good reason. I never said the SSC was over-priced, I said it would be if the possibility of firing it twice didn't exist. Plus I can't help but notice you are over-looking our 3rd rare choice, which is by far the best of the three, the Casket.

Also rock lobbas aren't overpriced they just tend to lose out because the special section of the O&G book is over-crowded, and if you want a catapult as an O&G player the Doom diver as a rare choice is always a better option.

linuvian
15-11-2009, 02:02
@Enigmatik1
Ok, I see your point on the so-called weak choices of your troops.
However, this is the way it plays out.
TK moves up and points any said unit at your flank
either chariot unit, horse cav, Tomb Guard.. w/e take your pick.
Now said unit then gets the move spell off. It negates ranks at the very least
and with now possibly outnumber. How are you not going to win that fight and now roll the flank of the entire line?
This all done by the fail safe magic!
Simply put - fail safe magic needs to be removed!
Have a chance for failure not just double 1's on the guy throwing two dice. Which in 20+ games against TK, has only happened once!

Once again, I only have a problem with the TK magic phase because it's just that fail safe. Over the top consistent!

Just to start off, I play TK as my main opponent, and play him quite frequently. In no way is TK magic OTT whatsoever! You state that their magic is sooo failsafe, and you argue they can get that flank charge whenever they want, no matter what. That they can always fire their catapults twice (at least, that is what your argument of the SCC should be 160 pts since it fires twice, it should be twice as expensive, seems like).

Their magic isn't powerful!

If you KNOW your opponent has a chance to charge you, position yoruself according. To let yourself be flank charged is just being a bad general - regardless if they have extra movement spells or not. And to respond to your previous post of '7' spells in a 2k game is utterly rediculous. Not only, as was pointed out, is 5 castings more realistic, but these spells are limited by range! No TK general worth his salt would put all his liches and TK/TP in the same vicinity to cast all the movement spells on one unit.

Just in general, I play HE as my main army (skaven as my second), and with 2 level 2's, I can pretty much control his magic phase. My opponent usually takes 1 HP, and 1 or 2 normal priests, and 1 TP. Occasionally a banner or two, the jar, and occasionally a casket (but not usually). All in all, he gets 1-2 spells off per turn. But you know what? SO DO I! And he has more 'magic' in his army than I do! (1 lord and 2 hero level 'wizards')

To be honest, I'm more concerned about the possible changes to the casket - being able to heal so many random units would REALLY hurt my ability to pick off his hard units one by one, and making sure those units don't get revived before they're killed off.

Farsot
15-11-2009, 02:14
O&G is considered one of the worst armies in this edition (and needs to be updated) and I rarely see rock lobbers when I play against them. This makes me think that rock lobbers are overpriced if anything since they cannot even compete with the crap choices in the O&G special section.

Rock Lobbers are great and horribly devasateing and two TK ones that fires 4 times a turn can obliterate even the biggest hoard army. We O&G just dont like the guessing ;)

TK magic is very good (just not crazy good like some of the newer lists) and with a tactical player behind it it can be devasteingly effective (flank charges, additional skull throwing Ld lowerling lobber shots, additional 5+ long range deforestation hails of arrows) and so on (abit like the wood elves but with its own flavour and far more versatile).

The Tomb Scorpion is allready a given, with 5 wounds you be crazy not to max out your choises with 'em (or a fair player). I agree with the S4 on the flyers, might be a bit to easy clearing up warmachines (except vs dorfs, lizardmen and warriors of chaos). A ward save for the Ubs' for being religious idols perhaps? Sure, why not, they indeed need something.

I personaly wish the make more sensible rules for the Casket and indeed give it a few options, escorted with in a unit would be fine to but its abilities/power should reflect its role (bost the unit and around that or more range if it's a stand still piece).

knightime98
15-11-2009, 02:20
Firstly DON'T exaggerate to advance your point, Rock Lobbas are NOT 80pts, they are 70, (I play O&G too). My SSC costs 110 and has only ONE shot.

Well, I haven't played O+G in a while - as my signature shows, I have 7 armies. Perhaps it is 70 points but thought it was 80 points. Maybe it's the dwarves grudge thrower for that points. Either way it's not that far off.

knightime98
15-11-2009, 02:36
If you KNOW your opponent has a chance to charge you, position yoruself according. To let yourself be flank charged is just being a bad general - regardless if they have extra movement spells or not.

So, you have never been outflanked by Tomb Kings? Really? Then play the TK players in my area. They get to move twice, once in their regular movement phase and pointing towards your flank and then again when the magic phase comes around. Sure in some cases you can prevent this from happening but not all the time. Don't give me the jive that just because I allow a flank charge that I'm a bad general.. That's a bunch of bull. I know how to play. The spam Charge move is bull too. Now just admit it and my work is done here!

ExarPucc
15-11-2009, 04:47
If they drop this is in May, that's 4 months after BoC. Figure there's going to be a 40k release in between the two. If they crank out a new army every 2 months alternating between 40k and WHFB we could have a pretty good release schedule.

But what was that they said about only being able to do so many frames of sprue a year from one of the recent GDs?

gdsora
15-11-2009, 05:27
These Rumors are neat, really hoping for someone of these.

Like, Prince being a Battle standard bearer.
Some upgrades for Ushabti (Seriously, they need it, 5+ armour does not cut it at all. Way too many forms of shooting can bypass that)
Same thing happens with my scorpion...

So I am looking forward to the next book

Green Feevah!
15-11-2009, 09:32
If they drop this is in May, that's 4 months after BoC. Figure there's going to be a 40k release in between the two. If they crank out a new army every 2 months alternating between 40k and WHFB we could have a pretty good release schedule.

But what was that they said about only being able to do so many frames of sprue a year from one of the recent GDs?

Beasts early in the year, TK late spring, 8th ed in the fall and (PLEASE!!!!) O&G come Christmas. That's a lot of Fantasy.

And if you combine that with all the rumors about 40k coming out this year, it seems like GW is stretching themselves awfully thin.

Not to be a downer, but BoC, then 8th THEN TK seems a bit more reasonable.

Hennesy
15-11-2009, 11:55
Pretty specific rumors from 'a guys at GW headquarters', did you have a notepad? Which HQ are you speaking of by the by?
Yes I had a notepad in fact. He works in the HQ in Nottingham but I don't know in which department or where he did get the info from. He also told me some rumors about 8th edition but these were so imprecise that I don't think they are worth mentioning.

Von Wibble
15-11-2009, 13:35
Beasts early in the year, TK late spring, 8th ed in the fall and (PLEASE!!!!) O&G come Christmas. That's a lot of Fantasy.

And if you combine that with all the rumors about 40k coming out this year, it seems like GW is stretching themselves awfully thin.

Not to be a downer, but BoC, then 8th THEN TK seems a bit more reasonable.

You seem to have missed out Brets and OK (and chaos dwarfs!!). I would certainly expect to see Brets out before OG.

I don't buy all the rumours - especially on tomb guard. I would also expect to see a major buff for things such as the bone giant and light horse. But if TK are coming out in May that is news I like a lot.

Green Feevah!
15-11-2009, 13:50
It had been mentioned in another thread that Orcs and Goblins were likely gettting a new book early in 8th since they are supposed to be in the new starter set.

linuvian
15-11-2009, 15:34
So, you have never been outflanked by Tomb Kings? Really? Then play the TK players in my area. They get to move twice, once in their regular movement phase and pointing towards your flank and then again when the magic phase comes around. Sure in some cases you can prevent this from happening but not all the time. Don't give me the jive that just because I allow a flank charge that I'm a bad general.. That's a bunch of bull. I know how to play. The spam Charge move is bull too. Now just admit it and my work is done here!

First, I like how you ignore all the other arguments and only pick one you think you have a chance of winning.

Second, I had flank charges against me the first few times against TK, but since then I have learned how to adapt. I play a HIGHLY mobile HE force, with decent ranged support to pick off smaller units. Now answer me this - How many charges do the TK's spam against you, on a given turn, that will potentially be a game changer? I would say, in all honesty, 2-3 is a reality. A king\prince that might be in the unit, and 1-2 priests that are in range to cast it as well. If that flank charge is a game changer, and you DON'T dispel those 2-3 spells, then you're are making a mistake. I might let them regen a unit or hero, throw a magic missile, even let them open the casket (my leadership is good enough), but I will NOT let them get a game-changing flank on me that I don't want them to have. Dispelling 2-3 casts (rarely 4) is easily possible, as long as you are willing to let other spells (that don't havethe game changing impact) go off. Playing against TK is all about picking your poison, spells will go off. You just have to control which ones do, not your opponent.

Enrico
15-11-2009, 16:22
knighttime98, do you have to be this annoying in EVERY SINGLE THREAD you post in?

"THIS IS BROKEN!"
"THAT IS BROKEN!"
"I HATE EVERYTHING!"

You're in a TOMB KINGS thread complaining that they are over the top. Good god man. That's a 100% credibility loser right there.

You have my vote for most tiresome poster all locked up. You don't need to do any more campaigning.

Enigmatik1
15-11-2009, 16:33
So, you have never been outflanked by Tomb Kings? Really? Then play the TK players in my area. They get to move twice, once in their regular movement phase and pointing towards your flank and then again when the magic phase comes around. Sure in some cases you can prevent this from happening but not all the time. Don't give me the jive that just because I allow a flank charge that I'm a bad general.. That's a bunch of bull. I know how to play. The spam Charge move is bull too. Now just admit it and my work is done here!

Ok, how about this. We'll give you the flank charge in the magic phase when our skeletons can beat the crap out of Chaos Warriors in combat? Sound fair? :p

Spiney Norman
15-11-2009, 16:58
So, you have never been outflanked by Tomb Kings? Really? Then play the TK players in my area. They get to move twice, once in their regular movement phase and pointing towards your flank and then again when the magic phase comes around. Sure in some cases you can prevent this from happening but not all the time. Don't give me the jive that just because I allow a flank charge that I'm a bad general.. That's a bunch of bull. I know how to play. The spam Charge move is bull too. Now just admit it and my work is done here!

Mate, I've played TK for 5 yrs and outflanking really isn't as easy as you think it is. Most TK units are over-priced and as a result armies tend to be very small.

As I said before any army below 3k has a maximum of 5 urgency incantations (usually either 2 from LHP, 1 from TP, 2 from LP or 2 from TK and 3 from LP), a sixth one is attainable by using the jar, but thats one use only so it only works for one turn. Sure using the jar might allow me to get a flank charge off, it might even let me kill a big scary unit, but I can't do the same next turn.

The fact that TK can move in the magic phase isn't so game breaking when you realise they move half the speed of everyone else anyway because they can't march.

It sounds to me like you just need to prioritise how you dispel your opponent's magic. Look at the likely candidates for incantations (they are usually pretty obvious), then work out which one you absolutely NEED to stop. Its usually pretty easy to figure out which priests are within the 12" spell range so you know which incants you need to stop, then just wait for them. Just use common sense, for example, don't throw dice to stop a unit of Tomb Guard bimbling up the field another 4 inches when there is a unit of chariots sitting on your flank etc.

In reality the ONLY must-stop incantations that a TK player will ever cast are urgency incants into a critical flank, usually with chariots, or sometimes Ushabti. Its unusual for a TK player to be able to muster more than 3 incants from characters to any given target because of their short range, its just a case of working out what you can afford to let through and then making sure you block the spells you can't afford to let through.

The strategy behind the entire TK magic set up is to try and goad your opponent into burning dispels on inconsequential spells so he doesn't have any left for the main spell you want to get off. If you let my first incant go when I announce I'm double firing a SSC or archers, or I'm moving my infantry up I already have a sinking feeling. Patience is the key to defeating TK magic.

Sure you might luck out with a bad dispel roll, but to be honest that could happen in any magic phase against any army.

Chiron
15-11-2009, 17:06
Mate, I've played TK for 5 yrs and outflanking really isn't as easy as you think it is. Most TK units are over-priced and as a result armies tend to be very small.

As I said before any army below 3k has a maximum of 5 urgency incantations (usually either 2 from LHP, 1 from TP, 2 from LP or 2 from TK and 3 from LP), a sixth one is attainable by using the jar, but thats one use only so it only works for one turn. Sure using the jar might allow me to get a flank charge off, it might even let me kill a big scary unit, but I can't do the same next turn.

Potentially seven if you bother to count the Banner of Summoning... yay, d6 models for one unit *leaps for joy* :rolleyes:

No problem with the rest of your points, TK really depends on getting the charge, without it you are slowly (at best) ground down to powder by superior troops. Even if you hold your lucky if you can get anything else to support your troops thanks to the cost of decent units and the shittyness of most of the units... Light Horse and Skeletons I'm looking at you

Ri-xthoal Lord of Lustira
15-11-2009, 17:08
To be the last army book of next is highly unlikely, you still have orge kingdom and that's the last army should be in the 7th ed. era.

Enrico
15-11-2009, 17:09
Potentially seven if you bother to count the Banner of Summoning... yay, d6 models for one unit *leaps for joy* :rolleyes:

And what he said was:

As I said before any army below 3k has a maximum of 5 urgency incantations

So you shouldn't have a problem with that either. ;)

Chiron
15-11-2009, 17:26
And what he said was:


So you shouldn't have a problem with that either. ;)

It depends how much I feel like cheating with em ;)

Edit: Another point is that its hard for TK to go above 2d6 for casting value, most armies are quiet happy fielding 3d6 with level 2's and they are usually cheaper anyway.

sulla
15-11-2009, 18:28
You seem to have missed out Brets and OK (and chaos dwarfs!!). I would certainly expect to see Brets out before OG.

.What's wrong with Brets at the moment that deserves a new book? Model range is ok, they still hit like a ton of bricks... O&G are much less functional as an infantry horde.

I agree with your suspicion about the TK rumours though.

silashand
15-11-2009, 19:43
Wishlisting or no, I do hope the Ushabti get something like what's listed. IMO they are some of the coolest models in the TK range and it's a shame you never see them on the field. JMO though...

knightime98
15-11-2009, 20:14
First, I like how you ignore all the other arguments and only pick one you think you have a chance of winning.


First the only argument - if you have been reading ALL of MY THREAD, is that the magic for TK needs fixing. That's the point!


knighttime98, do you have to be this annoying in EVERY SINGLE THREAD you post in?

"THIS IS BROKEN!"
"THAT IS BROKEN!"
"I HATE EVERYTHING!"

You're in a TOMB KINGS thread complaining that they are over the top. Good god man. That's a 100% credibility loser right there.


I explicitly have said in this thread the TK are NOT broken!
Read my previous Threads before posting such an erroneous blanket statement!

My main argument once again is spam casting without any chance of failure needs FIXING!


Ok, how about this. We'll give you the flank charge in the magic phase when our skeletons can beat the crap out of Chaos Warriors in combat? Sound fair? :p

That would be great if I played WOC and I'd allow it as those core troops are not all that. Sure the TK army needs a little bit of a buff here or there but I'm afraid they go VC on us if we start that taunt!


Mate, I've played TK for 5 yrs and outflanking really isn't as easy as you think it is. Most TK units are over-priced and as a result armies tend to be very small.

As I said before any army below 3k has a maximum of 5 urgency incantations (usually either 2 from LHP, 1 from TP, 2 from LP or 2 from TK and 3 from LP), a sixth one is attainable by using the jar, but thats one use only so it only works for one turn. Sure using the jar might allow me to get a flank charge off, it might even let me kill a big scary unit, but I can't do the same next turn.


So, you get 5 incans, 1 from jar, and one from the banner of the undying legion/summoning w/e it's called. You have 7 spells in one phase that go automatically. How many dispel dice do you think players have... Stuff is going through! This needs to be fixed! I don't have 7 spells in one phase to cast!

Once again, Magic needs fixing!


Potentially seven if you bother to count the Banner of Summoning... yay, d6 models for one unit *leaps for joy* :rolleyes:

No problem with the rest of your points, TK really depends on getting the charge, without it you are slowly (at best) ground down to powder by superior troops. Even if you hold your lucky if you can get anything else to support your troops thanks to the cost of decent units and the shittyness of most of the units... Light Horse and Skeletons I'm looking at you

As has been said, aside from my peanut gallery haters - Magic needs fixing!

No problem once again with ITP, fear causers, and no break tests as it stands for now with this particular army. Once you add all the buffs and super uber combat units then it gets to be like VC - we're in trouble. Let's not go down that path. I'd be ok with upping their combat strength if they lessen their magic phase with a chance to fail every spell. 3+ to cast minimum rule would fix it.

To my player haters - Read my previous posts first before accusing me of being a warmonger here on Warseer. It shows that you are ignorant and not really paying attention to the thread. It reflects poorly on your character. Avoid personal attacks. Stay on subject/topic! Move along, nothing to see here!

BruderLoras
15-11-2009, 21:16
Aw, but come on. Compaining about TK magic is a bit ridiculous, isn't it? They're not even remotely the most powerful magic army out there, and once an opponent has a halfway decent magic defense, they're petty much screwed, since the troops are crap. You're complaining that they don't miscast, well, that's one of their only advantages. Every army has one. I love my TK army, but it is by far the hardest to win with. My other two are Skaven abd Empire, and Empire isn't exactly overpowered either...
TK magic doesn't need fixing, the army list does.

StarFyreXXX
15-11-2009, 21:23
Not miscasting is NOT unbalanced anyways and never will be.

If it was that implies any person who plays a magic army and doesn't roll a miscast in a specific game; it means that game was not fair since one person never rolled a miscast (since apparently not being able to miscast is a game breaker).

Since each match is independent (you play me one day, then play another person the next has no relation on each other), does that implyif you miscast on the 2nd match, it was fair for that player whereas against me it wasn't?

Not miscasting really is meaningless since it is possible for people to not miscast in heavy magic games (I use slann armies, and have gone many games without a double 1 roll).

Sanjay

Spiney Norman
15-11-2009, 21:30
So, you get 5 incans, 1 from jar, and one from the banner of the undying legion/summoning w/e it's called. You have 7 spells in one phase that go automatically. How many dispel dice do you think players have... Stuff is going through! This needs to be fixed! I don't have 7 spells in one phase to cast!


Actually on the turn I use the jar I could get 8 incantations, you forgot the casket.

A tzeetnch Daemon army can potentially cast 7/8 spells a turn. In theory my Lizardmen army could (Slann and two priests) although that would rely on the Slann being able to cast at least 5 out of his 6 spells, which is possible with some of the lower spell cost lores like life, but not likely.

I think what you need to get your head around is how integral magic is to the Tomb King army. Tomb Kings units cannot march, ever, the only way I can get them moving at the same speed as everyone else is to use my magic to move them twice. Do you have any idea how annoying it is to have to use magic spells (and thats one spell for each unit I want to move again) for an ability that EVERY OTHER ARMY gets for free as standard? As a whole, my army cannot ever be as maneuverable as any other army in the game, even dwarfs move faster than we do, the only consolation is that occasionally I get the opportunity to move, set up a charge and then move again.

You'll have to take my word for it that the advantage of charging using magic is well balanced up by losing the ability to march, alternatively buy a TK army and experience it for yourself.

You are not supposed to be able to stop ALL my incantations, if you could you would utterly cripple the army. The banner of the undying legion only casts the summoning incantation, which is far less useful than urgency or righteous smiting and CANNOT be used to move troops. In actual fact the smarter opponents I've played just don't target a unit that has the Banner of the Undying legion, if you just choose to shoot at something else and I don't lose any models from the unit carrying the banner I cannot ever use the item (TK summoning can only restore fallen models, not create new ones) which means you have very easily reduced the number of incantations I can cast per turn by 1.

Once again, the ONLY incantation you really need to stop is an urgency incantation powering a critical charge, which will be few and far between. I freely admit that you need to give thought to stopping the casket, but our summoning incantations are so weak (at least compare to VC) you can safely let them through with impunity.

I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by carrying this argument on, you have successfully established yourself as the only person on Warseer who thinks Tomb King magic is broken, and if the weight of public opinion is not enough to convince you, I think its reasonable assume you are not here to have a debate, but rather an argument. Furthermore if there is no conceivable chance of you altering your position regardless of the case standing against you (which you continue to avoid answering) then any further communication is a waste of my time and yours.

You think Tomb King magic is broken, the rest of the warhammer-playing world disagrees with you, with this we must both be content.

Once more, attempting to salvage this thread before things get even hairier, Can ANYONE corroborate these rumours?

linuvian
15-11-2009, 21:43
My main argument once again is spam casting without any chance of failure needs FIXING!

So, you get 5 incans, 1 from jar, and one from the banner of the undying legion/summoning w/e it's called. You have 7 spells in one phase that go automatically. How many dispel dice do you think players have... Stuff is going through! This needs to be fixed! I don't have 7 spells in one phase to cast!

Once again, Magic needs fixing!


You still ignored my point - sure, 7 potential (including 1 use only items) spells that can go off, 6 on a regular basis (in a magic heavy TK army). How many of those will be used to cast game-changing spells??? I would say, at max, 3 would be used to get a game-changing charge off. If you can't dispel those three, and don't foresee that you NEED to dispel those three, then you are not a good general. Yes, you might let the catapult fire again, a unit might get healed, the banner might let d6 skele's come back, but the game changing charge would not happen.

And seriously, if you take a magic heavy army of any other army, you will have MORE spells that can be cast per turn!

In a 2.5k HE army, I can get a lord, 2 level 2's, each equipped with different bound items and spells, with magic banners, I can have 12-14 power dice (or more), 2 bound spells (ring of fury \ ring of corin), with bonuses to cast if I so choose. And you are saying that the TK magic is too over powered that they can get 6 regular (7 with a 1-use-only item) spells per turn - none of which can be cast with more than 3 dice? And before you claim the comparison isn't accurate, I'm comparing a heavy magic mid-tier army to a heavy magic TK army (which is your example, which you claim is overpowered).

The entire PURPOSE of TK magic, from their first showing when their wizards bought scrolls (which also had no chance of miscast of failure), is to be very mediocre, but very reliable. TK magic is unique, both from the gameplay perspective and from the fluff perspective. In no way is it overpowered, if anything I think it should be buffed up a bit, giving the high priests a few more spells, or at least a larger range than the normal priests. As Spiney said above, TK magic is SUPPOSED to go off, if you read the game developers quotes when TK were first introduced. If I could stop TK magic from going off completely, their army would be absolutely pathetic. They need magic more than any other army to be competitive.

Green Feevah!
15-11-2009, 22:21
To be the last army book of next is highly unlikely, you still have orge kingdom and that's the last army should be in the 7th ed. era.

As far as I've heard OK aren't even on the radar. We'll see Bretonnia before we see OK. They truly are the red-headed step-child of Fantasy.

linuvian
15-11-2009, 22:25
And to be on topic - What does everyone think of the changes to the Casket? I think it addresses the problem of the casket not being always useful (against elves\dwarves it doesn't always do alot), and really adds variability to the TK army without being too overpowered. As an opponent, i would definitely target it right away. And in line with the new Skaven book, I think it adds options and new tactics, without being too OTT

Chiron
15-11-2009, 22:33
Sounds great, probably a little to great but considering what some of the newer items can do (EotG, Cauldron of Blood)not to overpowered.

Realistically I'd expect for it to do something similar to those two magic items but hopefully not, I prefer giving the enemy some chance to dispel things... ;)

One thing I was looking for was for the Magic Missile to go up to 2D6 S4 or even S3 to make it a little more appealing and more reliable vs skirmishers

Spiney Norman
15-11-2009, 22:35
And to be on topic - What does everyone think of the changes to the Casket? I think it addresses the problem of the casket not being always useful (against elves\dwarves it doesn't always do alot), and really adds variability to the TK army without being too overpowered. As an opponent, i would definitely target it right away. And in line with the new Skaven book, I think it adds options and new tactics, without being too OTT

I would contest that the casket is always useful anyway, unless your opponent brings cannons that is, then its just too high risk.

I'm afraid the "rumours" about Tomb Guard and Ushabti are so ridiculous that I'm inclined to disbelieve the lot until someone gets confirmation. It would be nice to have a bit of choice with the casket though, its such an awesome model it deserves some love.

Scelerat
15-11-2009, 22:41
Plase, please, please, I beg you lot. Keep this on topic. Right now the most productive thing to speculate about is the release date, not how crap/broken/ultramegacool TKs are. I couldn't care less about what some Peter thinks about their magic phase. I care about when are they going to be released. So please open a new topic on the General Fantasy Discussion about things you like and hate of them. Keep this one for comments about release date or the rumours we have as of now.

linuvian
15-11-2009, 23:10
I'm afraid the "rumours" about Tomb Guard and Ushabti are so ridiculous that I'm inclined to disbelieve the lot until someone gets confirmation. It would be nice to have a bit of choice with the casket though, its such an awesome model it deserves some love.

The ushabti I don't think are too far fetched, although I don't really think they will be what the OP states (as my own opinion). I just remember the many rumors going around about how beefed up the rat ogres were going to be in the skaven book, but that never acutally happened.

The TG though.. Wow, a bit too to much for 9 points. Killing Blow, decent AS (for skeles), plus all the undead special rules. I would say closer to 11 points, possibly 10.

I do like the idea of the carrion being beefed up a bit though, right now they aren't strong enough, as they usually aren't in range of any of the TK magic bonuses, but that bonus is still probably included in their price. I would prefer the cost lowered a bit, but giving them a higher strength isn't bad.

Green Feevah!
15-11-2009, 23:32
The Casket, for the most part, is more about drawing away dispel dice from your enemy to stop the light from burning their whole army. As it should be. It's most effective use is in making sure you get more of your spells through, because without them the TK are toast.

9 point TG doesn't make sense unless the Skeletons are dropped to compensate. People don't want to take Skeletons now... why would they take them if you can get TG for a point more? If that rumor is true, expect to see a Tomb King leading every army, 3 units of chariots in core, a 25+ man TG deathstar, 3 Scorpions (again if the rumors about them are true) and then a backfield of 2 priests, one on a casket and one with a catapult.

If anything these rumors only make certain TK units an even more no-brainer to field, and make the bad stuff worse.

BramGaunt
15-11-2009, 23:40
First the only argument - if you have been reading ALL of MY THREAD, is that the magic for TK needs fixing. That's the point!


I explicitly have said in this thread the TK are NOT broken!
Read my previous Threads before posting such an erroneous blanket statement!

My main argument once again is spam casting without any chance of failure needs FIXING!

Once again, Magic needs fixing!

As has been said, aside from my peanut gallery haters - Magic needs fixing!

To my player haters - Read my previous posts first before accusing me of being a warmonger here on Warseer. It shows that you are ignorant and not really paying attention to the thread. It reflects poorly on your character. Avoid personal attacks. Stay on subject/topic! Move along, nothing to see here!

All I could make out from your posts is that you failed in dispelling TK armies magic. I hope that was not with your HE's, though... For myself I never had a problem with their magic neither with my Vampires, nor with High Elves or Orks.

You tend to make doubleposts, and to repeat yourself several times. The first means that you didn't read the forum rules/ignore them/cannot find the edit button - it's at the lower right of your post. The second: Well, there's a german saying "Wer sich unnötig widerholt ist im unrecht", which translates into "repeating yourself to often makes you unserious" (it's not a literal translation).
All the facts named here reflect badly on your character.

I don't accuse you to be a warmonger, I accuse you to be off topic and ignorant.

But you are right in one point: nothing to see in your posts. Move along. Please.


Back at topic: I would apreciate it a lot if tomb kings would get an update, they are one of my favorite armies - fluffwise. I'm sure I won't play them, as I just finished painting 100 VC skeleton warriors, still, I'm looking forward to the changes in them, as the Vampire models are just amazing.

These rumours look like early stage rumours should be, no speculations on new units, though almost every army released the last 2 years got at least one new unit (or a older unit reborn), except for Dark Elves, therefore I'd expect at least one, maybe a... Sphinx... *cough*

billr
16-11-2009, 00:00
And that same 100 point cannon can take out a 400 point lord on turn 1. Your opinion of what is fair seems to favour what you play.

And that same 400 point lord can take out half (or more) of the army with the 100 point canon if the 100 point canon misses. :p

Enigmatik1
16-11-2009, 00:17
The Casket, for the most part, is more about drawing away dispel dice from your enemy to stop the light from burning their whole army. As it should be. It's most effective use is in making sure you get more of your spells through, because without them the TK are toast.

Agree 100%. I don't know of any TK player who fields the Casket of Souls expecting it to go off. I will say this, however, until Friday night, I didn't think the Casket could go off (it went off twice :wtf:). Let's just say it was ugly (for my HE opponent) and basically won me the game by reducing his numbers by half and panicking his Swordmasters out of the battle for the rest of the game. Give the crew a 4+ ward save and call it a day.


9 point TG doesn't make sense unless the Skeletons are dropped to compensate. People don't want to take Skeletons now... why would they take them if you can get TG for a point more? If that rumor is true, expect to see a Tomb King leading every army, 3 units of chariots in core, a 25+ man TG deathstar, 3 Scorpions (again if the rumors about them are true) and then a backfield of 2 priests, one on a casket and one with a catapult.

Maybe we'll get lucky and Skeletons will only be archers? Now wouldn't that rock? As I've said before, I have no issue whatsoever with Skeleton Archers (even though I roll terribly for them too). It's when you put weapons and armor on them that I want to throw them into a blast furnace. Wishful thinking, I know but a guy can dream. TG as a core unit..../drool.

I really don't believe in the 9pt TG honestly. That's just too crazy. I don't want cheaper Skeletons either (leave that for VC). I just want slightly better ones so that I don't need a stiff drink whenever I pay 8-10 points per model for them.


If anything these rumors only make certain TK units an even more no-brainer to field, and make the bad stuff worse.

In many respects, they already are GF. No one in their right mind uses Heavy Horsemen. Few people use the Light Horsemen except as LP bunkers, even then I find mine more survivable (and effective) plopping him behind a Casket. Ushabti are rarely seen despite being the best model in the range (durability issues) and Bone Giants are almost never fielded except in a novelty list (reliability).

Green Feevah!
16-11-2009, 00:53
Agreed. My second army in Fatnasy was TK. The fact that over half of the units aren't even worth taking is a shame.

Spiney Norman
16-11-2009, 01:04
Agree 100%. I don't know of any TK player who fields the Casket of Souls expecting it to go off.

No of course not, I take the casket for two reasons, the -1 to casting rolls for enemy wizards and the ability to draw out scrolls/DD to increase the chance of my more important incantations going off.

ChaosReigns
16-11-2009, 01:27
Is anyone else interested to see what GW does with the Tomb King's special characters this time around? I can't imagine them leaving it at Khalida and Settra, especially not when some factions have ten special characters (I'm thinking specifically Warriors of Chaos at the moment).

knightime98
16-11-2009, 02:15
Well, there's a german saying "Wer sich unnötig widerholt ist im unrecht"

.... therefore I'd expect at least one, maybe a... Sphinx... *cough*

Are you making a pass at me???

The sphinx would be a cool idea, I concur!

burad
16-11-2009, 02:53
Personally, if a new TK book is coming out in May I will almost certainly be building a TK army. I was considering it before, but a new book will increase the chance. However, if they were to go and make the TK more like 'all the other armies' with respect to their magic, than i'm not going to bother, 'cause i don't want just an undead version of everything else. The uniqueness of TK is what makes them interesting.

Nezmith
16-11-2009, 03:07
Personally, if a new TK book is coming out in May I will almost certainly be building a TK army. I was considering it before, but a new book will increase the chance. However, if they were to go and make the TK more like 'all the other armies' with respect to their magic, than i'm not going to bother, 'cause i don't want just an undead version of everything else. The uniqueness of TK is what makes them interesting.

If the TK magic becomes just like everyone else's i'm going to DROP the army.

Bac5665
16-11-2009, 03:18
If the TK magic becomes just like everyone else's i'm going to DROP the army.

This. GW would RUIN the army if they made the magic ordinary. I love my Hieratic Hierarchy, I just want to increase the potency of it a bit.

outbreak
16-11-2009, 03:38
I'm very scared GW will try to normalise tk's rules abit (they seem to be doing that bit) just playing in an open friendly tournie this weekend made me realise how much rules we have that are different to other armies. If they remove our individuality i think i'd sell my army.

Enigmatik1
16-11-2009, 03:40
I doubt very seriously GW would change the nature of our magic. That would just be a terrible decision.

As far as special characters go, I can't see them not giving us additional ones. We only have two now. I think only OK has that few, but I'm not positive. I expect at least one additional Lord level character in addition to Settra being fieldable at 2K. I also am guessing there will be 2-4 Hero level special characters, probably a charioteer (Prince Tut), a TG-related character and an Ushabti/construct related character.

I don't know why but I also feel that we'll get at least one new unit. I feel like our choices are very small compared to other armies. I'm also not sure I want a Sphinx in the list but I definitely see the need for something big and nasty to prop a Tomb King on. Then again, I'd be content if I could mount my Kings and Princes on Tomb Scorpions and if we could mount Liche Priests on Carrion. :D Speaking of Liche Priests, am I the only one who feels like they're the next biggest ripoff in the list behind Skeletons?

I'm just not sure they could pull of the Sphinx monster/mount without making it cheesy and/or overpowered.

Green Feevah!
16-11-2009, 04:24
I doubt very seriously GW would change the nature of our magic. That would just be a terrible decision.

Don't worry. It's not like GW has a history of making tragically bad decisions. :rolleyes:

Geep
16-11-2009, 04:45
It used to be the trend that all armies had 2 special characters (except elves and maybe a few others, which had 3). Now they're going back to having a heap of special characters (like in 4th ed) so I'd say you're guaranteed to see more TK special characters.
It also seems to be the current trend to have at least one character as an upgrade in a regular unit. I think a character like this would most suit the Ushabti, but who knows...

WusteGeist
16-11-2009, 06:35
If GW makes ustabti better thats great. Make the prince a bsb that's awesome. Increase the magic so it can have a chance against VC and Damons even better. Not saying make their magic OP just make it so it can have a chance like any real magic defense can. But I draw the line at no longer being able to take swarms of chariots. Every ounce of fluff from the old bible of the undead IE the 5th ed army book, to the TK book to white dwarfs and fiction fan made or other wise. Has always suggested a ton of chariots, hell Tomb Kings are almost literally molded off the Pharaohs and there chariot driven armies. If they loose the ability to take an all chariot army it will no longer be TK it will just be some bastard version of Vampire counts. It would just be a more thought out version of that undead army from the white dwarf. Heinrich Kiemlars undead army that went out against the wood elves. Alright rant off.

soots
16-11-2009, 07:14
I was offended when i heard that the army that can have the toughest heroes in warhammer cannot use said hero for BSB. Thats GWs way of saying FU!

Einholt
16-11-2009, 07:23
Or balance... but you know, that's not like GW either.

Gazak Blacktoof
16-11-2009, 10:04
The other reason for not taking a BSB for tomb kings is that it isn't actually very good. That being the case, I'd hope that balance didn't enter into the decision that resulted in princes not being able to be a BSB in the current book.

GW could easily make an undead BSB better in the new book without resulting in an overpowered ability.

Spiney Norman
16-11-2009, 11:36
As far as special characters go, I can't see them not giving us additional ones. We only have two now. I think only OK has that few, but I'm not positive. I expect at least one additional Lord level character in addition to Settra being fieldable at 2K. I also am guessing there will be 2-4 Hero level special characters, probably a charioteer (Prince Tut), a TG-related character and an Ushabti/construct related character.

I don't know why but I also feel that we'll get at least one new unit. I feel like our choices are very small compared to other armies. I'm also not sure I want a Sphinx in the list but I definitely see the need for something big and nasty to prop a Tomb King on. Then again, I'd be content if I could mount my Kings and Princes on Tomb Scorpions and if we could mount Liche Priests on Carrion. :D Speaking of Liche Priests, am I the only one who feels like they're the next biggest ripoff in the list behind Skeletons?

I'm just not sure they could pull of the Sphinx monster/mount without making it cheesy and/or overpowered.

Liche priests are a rip off, but unfortunately we need them so much its not something we can just do without. I've never been able to work out why a LP is more points than a prince, when the prince is not only a caster but also a very competant combat character. High Priests probably are worth it as 2 3D6 incantations every turn is insanely good.

After reading the Siege of Mahrak in Nagash the Sorcerer I REALLY want a sphinx in the army list.

Enigmatik1
16-11-2009, 13:24
The other reason for not taking a BSB for tomb kings is that it isn't actually very good. That being the case, I'd hope that balance didn't enter into the decision that resulted in princes not being able to be a BSB in the current book.

GW could easily make an undead BSB better in the new book without resulting in an overpowered ability.

But how? We all know IBs aren't taken because they offer nothing to the magic phase and that the banners that are available to them aren't worth taking. Then add in that he's basically a glorified Tomb Guard champion with two wounds and it's no small wonder why he never sees the light of day.

The benefits he's capable of providing are only marginally useful in a construct army. His benefit to skeletons is negligible at best and he has access to two crappy banners (imho). If there were good banners available to him, I might be inclined to try to work him into a list, but even then he's probably only worth 40 points or so unless he gets a stat boost.

Edit: If you were going to add a Sphinx to the army what manner of stats/abilities would you give it? Also, I've heard before that in those same books that Spiney referenced, there were Ushabti driving chariots...now THAT's what I'm talking about!

Chiron
16-11-2009, 13:53
But how? We all know IBs aren't taken because they offer nothing to the magic phase and that the banners that are available to them aren't worth taking. Then add in that he's basically a glorified Tomb Guard champion with two wounds and it's no small wonder why he never sees the light of day.

The benefits he's capable of providing are only marginally useful in a construct army. His benefit to skeletons is negligible at best and he has access to two crappy banners (imho). If there were good banners available to him, I might be inclined to try to work him into a list, but even then he's probably only worth 40 points or so unless he gets a stat boost.

Edit: If you were going to add a Sphinx to the army what manner of stats/abilities would you give it? Also, I've heard before that in those same books that Spiney referenced, there were Ushabti driving chariots...now THAT's what I'm talking about!

THe books were ****...

And the Ushabti went from cool Stone effigies of the gods to uber buff humans...

Gazak Blacktoof
16-11-2009, 15:58
But how?

That'd be wishlisting, so I'll refrain from commenting.



If you were going to add a Sphinx to the army what manner of stats/abilities would you give it?

I wouldn't as I don't like sphinx, and as one hasn't been mentioned in the rumours I remain happy.

Spiney Norman
16-11-2009, 17:18
But how? We all know IBs aren't taken because they offer nothing to the magic phase and that the banners that are available to them aren't worth taking. Then add in that he's basically a glorified Tomb Guard champion with two wounds and it's no small wonder why he never sees the light of day.

The benefits he's capable of providing are only marginally useful in a construct army. His benefit to skeletons is negligible at best and he has access to two crappy banners (imho). If there were good banners available to him, I might be inclined to try to work him into a list, but even then he's probably only worth 40 points or so unless he gets a stat boost.

Edit: If you were going to add a Sphinx to the army what manner of stats/abilities would you give it? Also, I've heard before that in those same books that Spiney referenced, there were Ushabti driving chariots...now THAT's what I'm talking about!

The book does have Ushabti driving chariots, but the Ushabti in the book are not the giant statues we have in the game, they are the (human) personal guard of the King of the City and are blessed by the city's patron god. The Ushabti of Mahrak were especially blessed, taking on the appearance of their patron god, i.e jackal heads, falcon heads etc.

I do sort of like the idea of a better chariot though, perhaps a skeleton heavy chariot (works like a normal chariot, i.e does not form units) and is crewed by Tomb Guard. The heavy chariots could be a special choice, moving light chariots permanently into core.

Based on what I've read in the book the Sphinx should probably have the following profile and special rules
M6, WS4, BS4, S6, T6, W6, I4, A5, Ld10 - 350 pts-ish
Terror, Undead construct, AS 3+, It came from below, Always strikes first, MR (2), Incantation of urgency (bound level 4), and seeing as GW are currently into regening monsters, lets give it that too :)

Enigmatik1
16-11-2009, 18:05
The book does have Ushabti driving chariots, but the Ushabti in the book are not the giant statues we have in the game, they are the (human) personal guard of the King of the City and are blessed by the city's patron god. The Ushabti of Mahrak were especially blessed, taking on the appearance of their patron god, i.e jackal heads, falcon heads etc.

I do sort of like the idea of a better chariot though, perhaps a skeleton heavy chariot (works like a normal chariot, i.e does not form units) and is crewed by Tomb Guard. The heavy chariots could be a special choice, moving light chariots permanently into core.

Well, I didn't read the books so I didn't know they were human. That blows. I rather like the effigies we currently have and don't want them to go anywhere (just be a tad bit tougher).


Based on what I've read in the book the Sphinx should probably have the following profile and special rules
M6, WS4, BS4, S6, T6, W5, I6*, A5, Ld10
Undead construct, AS 3+, It came from below, Always strikes first, MR (2), Incantation of urgency (bound level 4), and seeing as GW are currently into regening monsters, lets give it that too :)

*please note an initiative of 6 is entirely inappropriate for this model, but I kept it in because of my hatred for swordsmasters

Wouldn't this invalidate the Bone Giant? My primary issue with adding any large model to the army is what it would potentially do to Big Bone, who has enough issues already. I don't want him to be removed, just make him worth his points compared to the other rare choices available in the list.

The more seriously consider the matter the more I've come to realize that a vast majority of my issues with the current TK list aren't the massive deficiencies between it and some of the other armies, it's the massive disparities within the list itself (like value of two SSCs being cheaper [and more effective] than ONE Bone Giant or Skeletons vs. Tomb Guard). Yes, it does get frustrating that skeletons are auto-lose in close combat against just about anything else. But I can reconcile that. What I can't reconcile is that these same utterly terrible Skeletons are only a pittance cheaper than Tomb Guard, who can throw down with just about anyone and have a shot at winning. Balacing the units/models within the list would go a LONG way to fixing the army, in my humble opinion anyway.

Edit: Swordmasters are afraid of my Tomb King army. They've yet to take a swing at any of my units. They've been too busy running away due to panicking for some reason. Anyway, why not give Sphinxes an aura that drops enemy initiative to 1. Take that ASFElves! :P Maybe then, the Crook and Flail of Radiance would get some play.

Spiney Norman
16-11-2009, 21:29
Well, I didn't read the books so I didn't know they were human. That blows. I rather like the effigies we currently have and don't want them to go anywhere (just be a tad bit tougher).



Wouldn't this invalidate the Bone Giant? My primary issue with adding any large model to the army is what it would potentially do to Big Bone, who has enough issues already. I don't want him to be removed, just make him worth his points compared to the other rare choices available in the list.


Hasn't the bone giant already invalidated himself with his vastly overpriced lameness? Seriously though, he needs a serious buff in order to be competitive.

Enigmatik1
16-11-2009, 22:01
Hasn't the bone giant already invalidated himself with his vastly overpriced lameness? Seriously though, he needs a serious buff in order to be competitive.

Come on, S-Money...I'm trying to be nice here! :p

Dooks Dizzo
16-11-2009, 22:13
Here's a funny story: You can still get the TK Battalion on the website.

Anyone want to guess which one you suddenly can't?

Scelerat
16-11-2009, 22:23
Uh... I still can order them all, except Beastmen, of course.

Dooks Dizzo
16-11-2009, 22:26
Ogres too?

Von Wibble
16-11-2009, 22:27
What's wrong with Brets at the moment that deserves a new book? Model range is ok, they still hit like a ton of bricks... O&G are much less functional as an infantry horde.

I agree with your suspicion about the TK rumours though.

Well, I'm not a bret player and really don't mind either way - but questing knights are a poor choice, pegasus knights need bringing in line with the rest of the list, and the army is very one dimensional in feel. Not to mention that dwarfs didn't really need a new book either but still got one, and I think a fair number of chaos players out there would have preferred no new book for them.

It doesn't seem to be about who needs a book so much as whose turn it is.

Imo the magic should stay as is - but the Heirophant should get a free incantation / bonus to cast. Reason being that this makes up for all other armies getting +2 power dice just for having wizards. I'd also add an incantation weakening enemy WS as a replacement for the magic missile (combined with giving the bone giant +2A you now make him a viable choice with these simple tweaks).

As to new units I see the Sphinx as a guardian - a bit like the green knight. I would have it guarding a tomb on the battlefield, and make it have very good stats for the points but unable to move further than 6" from the feature. I would also make it a special character. The only evidence pointing to such an inclusion at all is the fact they exist in warmaster though, and in some ways I'd prefer a giant undead construct.

The other warmaster unit is the bone thrower. Undead bolt throwers would be nice but they'd have to be very cheap since hitting on 5+ is not ideal (without even the large monster bonus) - letting them form up in batteries could be a good way to remedy this (and it makes incantations all the nastier). Elite chariots and royal bowmen would be nice, adding nice units and models for some variety. Tbh I don't see the need for many new units and would prefer a perfect balance of the existing ones.

Scelerat
16-11-2009, 22:28
@Dizzo: Um... yep. But that may be because the Spanish part of the website is not up-to-date to the last minute.
But I sure as hell hope the don't redo OK before TK.

Dooks Dizzo
16-11-2009, 22:29
Ogres are off the US website.

I'm telling ya, the OP is just wishlisting.
Edit: They're off Canada too.

Scelerat
16-11-2009, 22:32
Well that's a shame, really. I might not be the most objective observer, because I've always hated Ogre Kingdoms, from the concept to the minis, and I think they don't need an update as badly (rules and miniature wise) as TK do.

Crap if they're done before.

Malorian
16-11-2009, 22:35
All I want for my ogres is a better way to deal with dragons...

Like being able to mount one with my tyrant :evilgrin:


I hope TK is being done first though.

Chiron
16-11-2009, 22:39
All I want for my ogres is a better way to deal with dragons...

Like being able to mount one with my tyrant :evilgrin:.

Dude... nsfw!

*mind melts*

Dooks Dizzo
16-11-2009, 22:39
Stubborn Giants would do it for me.

Scelerat
16-11-2009, 22:41
Isn't it too soon to have the batallion removed, anyway? Isn't it more probably just a mistake or something?
*crosses fingers*

Dooks Dizzo
16-11-2009, 22:45
I know I'm going to hustle out and get the battalion just in case. It's one of the best deals out there. Like $160 for $90.

Spiney Norman
16-11-2009, 22:52
I guess its a broad as it is long, Ogres are as much in need of a redo as Tomb Kings are, its just a crying shame they wont both get done before 8th Edition because it means one is going to have to wait a very long time for a new book.

I'm going to pull the age card and vote for tomb kings though, the TK book is quite a few years older than the OK book (come to think of it, its a fair bit older than the current beastmen book).

On the bright side my wallet will be in far less pain if Ogres get done first and TK have to wait a year or two (or three?), plus there are inherent bonuses to waiting until mid-edition for your rewrite, as VC and Delfs found out this time...

Did the OK Battalion come off the US store today? The UK store still has it in stock, and there is no sign that OK products are being denied to independent retailers as some TK products have been.

Lilike
16-11-2009, 23:07
Well OK need it as bad as TK does, but as SN points out the book not that old by warhammer FB standards.

Ivellis
16-11-2009, 23:11
The OK book might need a redo as much as the TK, but the TK model range is in much more need than the OK's.

Scelerat
16-11-2009, 23:30
Indeed it is. Our skellies want to be cool.

Enigmatik1
16-11-2009, 23:45
Indeed it is. Our skellies want to be cool.

Luckily being cool and being good are mutually exclusive conditions! :p

I freely admit to having a soft spot for Ogre Kingdoms. If TK weren't so heavily influenced by ancient Egypt, I'd probably have an OK army right now instead. In the event that OK is up next, I won't be a hater and cry foul. I'll support and applaud them as they hopefully get the attention they need to be competitive. After all, I'm still able to win games with Tomb Kings, mainly by virtue of lucky war machine shots or fortune Light of Death rolls wiping out half an opposing army, but whatever. A win is a win, right? ;) I could always turn to the darkside and start my WoC Slaanesh army since none of the armies in my gaming group are ItP. :evilgrin:

Dooks Dizzo
17-11-2009, 00:14
Ogres battle force is only unavailable in the US and Canada. TK's available everywhere.

Isabel
17-11-2009, 01:38
Ogres are off the US website.

I'm telling ya, the OP is just wishlisting.
Edit: They're off Canada too.

Huh? It's still available in the US.

Check the Fantasy section, Gift Ideas tab

overlordofnobodies
17-11-2009, 01:41
All I want for my ogres is a better way to deal with dragons...

Like being able to mount one with my tyrant :evilgrin:


I hope TK is being done first though.

I dont what my tyrant to ride one. I WHAT HIM TO KILL IT AND THEN EAT IT!!:evilgrin::evilgrin:

Dooks Dizzo
17-11-2009, 03:11
Wierd, it's no longer listed under Army Books and Sets.

Scelerat
17-11-2009, 13:25
It's still listed under Army Books and sets in the Spanish website.

Indreth
17-11-2009, 13:37
On the german page it is listed aswell.

Spiney Norman
17-11-2009, 13:58
Whew, panic over then?

Right, lets get back to Tomb Kings

Any clues what the special chars might be, I'm thinking perhaps Sehenesmet, maybe an uber High priest from Mahrak, or a Zandrian King. It would be nice to give some of the other Nehekharan cities an airing instead of just focussing on Khemri the whole time.

Indreth
17-11-2009, 14:18
The famous ships are from Zandri right? I think a coll idea would be to bring a captain/admiral of a fleet of the undead. (I'm thinking of Lokhir Fellheart as a commander of a black ark)
Sehebesmet would be grat but I think we have not a high chance to see a mini of him

Scelerat
17-11-2009, 18:25
Whew, panic over then?

Right, lets get back to Tomb Kings

Any clues what the special chars might be, I'm thinking perhaps Sehenesmet, maybe an uber High priest from Mahrak, or a Zandrian King. It would be nice to give some of the other Nehekharan cities an airing instead of just focussing on Khemri the whole time.
I'd like Hastings or Harry or Brimstone or anyone else of the "usually-in-the-know" people to either confirm or hint wether the release date is accurate or not, but I guess they won't say anything too "big" before the Beastmen release.

And as for SCs, Tutankhanut would be cool, with a nice "Ra from Stargate" mask. Settra doesn't need a resculpt, IMO, but maybe they will do a new one for Khalida. Not that she needs it, though.

Spiney Norman
17-11-2009, 18:35
Actually most of the TK range is pretty sweet, the Kings and Prince models are really good, although it wouldn't hurt to have a nice Chariot King (i.e a King which is in a swanky individualised chariot, not just an ordinary plastic one).

The things that desperately need new models are

Liche Priests (please give us one of those gorgeous foot/mounted plastic sets like HE got)
Skeleton Infantry
Skeleton Cavalry (not that I'd really use them unless the rules are substantially improved)

Things that would be nice additions

Tomb Guard (not that I dislike them, but a plastic version would be sweet)
Bone Giant
SSC (again I like the current model, but something easier to assemble would be awesome)

Indreth
17-11-2009, 19:53
The things that desperately need new models are

Liche Priests (please give us one of those gorgeous foot/mounted plastic sets like HE got)
Skeleton Infantry
Skeleton Cavalry (not that I'd really use them unless the rules are substantially improved)

Yep definitly agree with you. But I do not see a good chance to get the liche priests in plastic...

Tutankhanut is a possible choice I think.

Isabel
17-11-2009, 20:24
I'd like to see Alcadizaar with the fellblade as a special character ;) Not that he was properly embalmed, but I'm sure they could come up with some kind of reasoning for bringing him back.

Bloodknight
17-11-2009, 23:41
Tomb Guard (not that I dislike them, but a plastic version would be sweet)

I don't think I'd need plastic TG, although we will surely get them. They'll be practically monopose like most of the new minis and since they are Elite, I guess they will become known as Gold Guard, judging by the price of plastic Greatswords and Bestigors.

Scelerat
18-11-2009, 00:06
Hm. Maybe not. After all, it would be a bit insulting if they were more expensive than the Grave Guard, so...
Anyway, they are practically a given, yes.
Someone like ages ago said something about plastic Ushabti *drools*

Spiney Norman
18-11-2009, 00:46
Hm. Maybe not. After all, it would be a bit insulting if they were more expensive than the Grave Guard, so...
Anyway, they are practically a given, yes.
Someone like ages ago said something about plastic Ushabti *drools*

The thing with Ushabti is I can't see how they could improve on the current models, IMHO they're already the best in the entire warhammer range, plus I have 6 of the metals already, so unless they made them loads better I wouldn't spend.

Scelerat
18-11-2009, 00:50
I agree with you in how gorgeous they are. If anything, they look slightly monopose. I guess they could make the bodies a bit more mobile without losing that imposing "living statue" lookthey have.
But I have a thing for plastic and absolutely hate metal, so...

Enigmatik1
18-11-2009, 01:33
Hm. Maybe not. After all, it would be a bit insulting if they were more expensive than the Grave Guard, so...


You ought to be ashamed of yourself for this comment...:angel:

Scelerat
18-11-2009, 02:27
Yeah, I know. Quite stupid of me. Ashamed I am, mister.

Mercutius
18-11-2009, 08:30
Modelwise this is only wish-listing, what we are doin' here, but IMO thats the most fun for every new Book :-).

IMO our Ushabtis are stunning even so is the cascet! The prince/king/special chars are like the Tomb Guard and the catapult very, very good.
The priests and the carrions are mediocore but IMO still don't need an update.

The funy thing for me is that I don't like most our plastic range, and that were at that time the new models :-). If we would just get new skeletons and chariots we would have one of the best ranges for one single army here :-).

static grass
18-11-2009, 09:17
The famous ships are from Zandri right? I think a coll idea would be to bring a captain/admiral of a fleet of the undead. (I'm thinking of Lokhir Fellheart as a commander of a black ark)
Sehebesmet would be grat but I think we have not a high chance to see a mini of him

Zandri?? city of the vulture lord? surely not :D I mean why pick that place out?

Anyway who's ever heard of Zandri? (http://www.warhammeronline.com/conceptart/index.php)

Indreth
18-11-2009, 13:27
King Amenemhetum, who built vast fleets to sail and conquer the seas, ruled from Zandri. The whole article can be found at the lexicanum (http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Zandri).

They don't have to pick out whole Zandri, they have to pick out a single character. But I think(hope), like the big cities of the LM, the famous cities of the TK will get a closer look of the designers.

mikkjel
18-11-2009, 16:50
I really felt like doing a TK "off the longships" army after reading a feat for crows again. Like the iron fleet. What is dead cannot die, but rises harder and stronger.

teddet
18-11-2009, 17:33
This is total wishlisting, but the references to boats got me thinking. What about a flying boat crewed by skeletons as a rare choice -- something like the stegadon? It could even "ram" things?

Scelerat
18-11-2009, 18:01
What is dead cannot die, but rises harder and stronger.
Nice post-mortem Viagra reference there :)

Schelle
18-11-2009, 18:25
Hi all,

Don't know if some one already added this, but Bone Giant will come out in a plastic kit, kind of like the current Giant kit, but obviously with different bits and bobs.:D

Not sure if it will have the Bone Giant mage option though, which was mentioned as a rumour in a previous thread.

I already knew this for quite awhile now from a good an reliable source, basically predicted the plastic stegadon and empire greatswords almost half a year before their actual release.

So think of it what you will, after all this is a rumours thread:rolleyes:

stahly
18-11-2009, 18:28
Modelwise I think we will sadly see no redo of the existing plastics like with the Elven armies. Even though the models are aged and don't fit well to the excellent metal characters, they would have to redo 3 whole sets before they can translate some metal stuff into plastic which they seem to be more fond of lately. In addition, when the new Vampire Counts plastics were released, there was a side by side comparison of a VC and a TK skeleton and Jervis wrote something like "both ranges have their unique style".
So I think for plastic sets we will see plastic Tomb Guard, I think that's a given, and like the Dark Elves one additonal set, with luck two. Tomb King aren't the big sellers after all. Maybe a Skull Catapult with a new option like the Screamin Bell kit or Urshabti.

edit: or even a plastic bone giant.

Chiron
18-11-2009, 18:31
What is dead cannot die, but rises harder and stronger.

So any day now we'll be fighting against Hitler and the Nazi zombies of doom?

Schelle
18-11-2009, 18:33
Dead Snow any one?

Scelerat
18-11-2009, 18:41
there was a side by side comparison of a VC and a TK skeleton and Jervis wrote something like "both ranges have their unique style".

Well, he wouldn't say something like "we will get around to redoing them sometime in the next 2 or maybe 20 years". We're talking about a company that passes aged models as "conversion opportunities", for example. They wouldn't admit to the most small flaw in their models... it wouldn't be wise to do so.
I think we will have our skellies redone. Almost all armies have had at least one basic troop redone: Black Ark Corsairs, Skeletons, Marauder Horsemen... Only High Elves haven't had that treatment, AFAIK (correct me if I'm wrong, though). Also, Skaven Clanrats were a surprise, since everyone thought they wouldn't be redone, and voilà. They are also root for another argument: you say they wouldn't change the Skellies bc that would mean they'd have to change three other kits. Well, Gutter Runners are still Monkeymen of Doom, so they are by no means above that.
Also, they may not be the top sellers, but they could sell a lot more wich a couple flashy new kits! They have a really cool imagery (a lot of people likes Egypt), and right now they have the technology to translate that feel into new miniatures. Add to that a new big kit, like the Screaming Bell, whether it is a Sphynx or a Bone Giant or anything else, and they might sell a bit better. Saying "they don't sell good, so we might as well stop investing in them" is just bad management. Not that GW has been the pinnacle of good management, but hey...

Enigmatik1
18-11-2009, 19:13
To further Scelerat's point is that sometimes, we as Tomb King players, end up dooming ourselves with this "not a popular army" label. What follows is somewhat off-topic, so I apologize in advance...

I remember when I decided to get back into Warhammer earlier in the year. I'd already decided to run Tomb Kings before ever reading a single forum or opinion. Why? Because I'm all about ancient Egypt. Slaaneshi WoC did have a modest pull (as I saw a Hellraiser themed army of crazed, depraved humans serving the Pleasure God), as did Ogre Kingdoms (they're big and they hit hard...what's not to like?) but I knew my first and primary army would be Tomb Kings.

So I start reading here, Librarium Online and other sources and all I read was how hard the army was to play with, win with and master. I read to expect a slew of losses before my first win. To expect frustration because my army really is as the AB says (slow, weak and expensive) and that there'd be times I'd want to throw my army into an incinerator. Some of what I'd been lead to believe is true, other things grossly exaggerated but I love my army (except Skeletons...I HATE SKELETONS!! GRRR!).

I wonder how many potential Tomb King players were put off by the initial responses on message boards telling them basically that TK is hard mode and don't even try playing unless you're a masochist?

Ymir
18-11-2009, 19:50
Although, as the three tomb kings plastic kits go - have you ever tried using the heads (those without headgear) from the horsemen sprue for regular skeleton warriors on foot? They'll look much, much better that way, you see. It's not a very obvious difference at first, but you will notice it.

By this I'm not trying to say that the horsemen models are very good, they look ridiculous and almost...naked, but their head bits are very much superior to those in the skeleton warriors set. Too bad those head bits are so few :cries:

I don't know where I'm going with this, really...maybe that I'd be satisfied if we just got the horsemen heads in the skeleton warriors box, really. Not that I'm against GW redoing both those kits completely, there's much room for improvement, but I'd rather see plastic tomb guard, bone giants, ushabti, carrion, character models, you name it. (I hate metal). And pleeease give us a new screaming skull catapult that doesn't look like an unstable pile of bones. (I'm not a fan of the old undead paradigm of everything being made of bone...oh, and I'm not a fan of Warhammer's tendency with catapults deployed in pitched battles either, that's just absurd...couldn't they just redo it as a boltthrower or something?).

But the chariot kit really is quite nice as it is.

knightime98
18-11-2009, 19:54
This is total wishlisting, but the references to boats got me thinking. What about a flying boat crewed by skeletons as a rare choice -- something like the stegadon? It could even "ram" things?

That would be cool - but a flying chariot? Like the Black Coach with it's powers upped. A 20" flying chariot .. Don't think it's going to happen.. That's just reaching especially when you can invo it with movement into combat in the very first turn! You have to consider the stacking powers...

Chiron
18-11-2009, 20:35
To further Scelerat's point is that sometimes, we as Tomb King players, end up dooming ourselves with this "not a popular army" label. What follows is somewhat off-topic, so I apologize in advance...


I think a lot of the problems are with tournament players recomending lists, which creates a disconnect between what an army is actually capable of and what the average player thinks.

I've been going to GW a lot recently and hearing a lot about how overpowered TK are from the younger players who dont neccesarily spend time online and focus on playing in store vs the army of them month.

Of course this makes my jaded senses giggle with glee as I wage psychological warfare on them (and in a way its very fun not to fight people focussed on the maths behind the game)

-Grimgorironhide-
18-11-2009, 21:17
With Tomb King plastic kits this is what I could see us possibly getting in the first wave:
-New Plastic Skellies (Swordsmen, Spears, Shields and bows)
-New Plastic Tomb Guard (Hopefully Great Weapon options)
-New Plastic Horsemen (Option to make light or heavy)

And if we do get a plastic Bone giant I could see us getting it 2 weeks after the inital release like skaven did with their big kit.

Here's hoping.

cheers.

Spiney Norman
19-11-2009, 15:00
This is total wishlisting, but the references to boats got me thinking. What about a flying boat crewed by skeletons as a rare choice -- something like the stegadon? It could even "ram" things?

That would be sweet, incidentally its called a Lybaran sky boat and features quite prominently in Nagash the Sorceror I'm not sure about ramming though, it was mainly used for dropping things as well as a excellent place for the Nehekharan Kings to view the battlefield.


Modelwise I think we will sadly see no redo of the existing plastics like with the Elven armies. Even though the models are aged and don't fit well to the excellent metal characters, they would have to redo 3 whole sets before they can translate some metal stuff into plastic which they seem to be more fond of lately. In addition, when the new Vampire Counts plastics were released, there was a side by side comparison of a VC and a TK skeleton and Jervis wrote something like "both ranges have their unique style".
So I think for plastic sets we will see plastic Tomb Guard, I think that's a given, and like the Dark Elves one additonal set, with luck two. Tomb King aren't the big sellers after all. Maybe a Skull Catapult with a new option like the Screamin Bell kit or Urshabti.

edit: or even a plastic bone giant.

I'm sorry this is ridiculous, the Ushabti are the best models in the range, why on earth would they redo them? I very much doubt we'd see plastic Ushabs as even LM Kroxigor and O&G trolls didn't make it into plastic and they're almost certainly bigger sellers.

Much as I am looking forward to a new book I have all the models I need to field up to 3k points and mostly the models are great, the only way they are going to get me buying new models is to add new units to the army list or redo Skeleton warriors. I would FAR rather get a plastic skeleton warrior set (ehem, VC) than have them redo Tomb Guard, if you want to cite the elves as an example they didn't get their special choice infantry plasticised.

The biggest problem with the skeletons is that there aren't even enough Khemri heads in the box to make give all of the models a TK head, plus there is only one, perhaps two Khopeshs on each command sprue, I'm so fed up of having to field my TK infantry with gothic style broadswords, axes and morningstars, not to mention the cutlasses...

Maybe if they made a new Khemri sprue with enough swords and heads for a unit that would be acceptable, but really we want some juicy themed basic infantry like the VCs got. Its not like they'd have to redo all three sets anyway, Chariots are great already, cavalry suck but then no-one actually uses them anyway (and probably wont again unless they make them better), and its not like having a new infantry set whose style was drastically different to the cavalry one would matter to GW, Delf cold-one knights/chariots eat your heart out.




To further Scelerat's point is that sometimes, we as Tomb King players, end up dooming ourselves with this "not a popular army" label. What follows is somewhat off-topic, so I apologize in advance...

Got to disagree with this one, TK were my second army after lizards, I picked up lizards and straight away had a 50:50 win-loss ratio, when I started TK (blissfully ignorant of their reputation, what can I say, I liked the models) it was almost a year before I won a game. The weakness, and also consequently the strength of the Tomb Kings lies in their differentness, they are totally unlike every other army, which makes them hard to learn how to handle, once you've learned how they work (through bitter experience) I find they perform very well (even against Delfs and the like), mainly because people don't really know what to expect when tehy fight them.

The pain with the Khemri army is that most of their units are vastly over-costed next to comparable units from other armies, when you consider that TK magic buffs the units to punch considerably above their weight then that cost becomes acceptable, but unless you know how to play a TK magic phase properly you're probably going to have a hard time using them.

Enigmatik1
19-11-2009, 15:12
Got to disagree with this one, TK were my second army after lizards, I picked up lizards and straight away had a 50:50 win-loss ratio, when I started TK (blissfully ignorant of their reputation, what can I say, I liked the models) it was almost a year before I won a game. The weakness, and also consequently the strength of the Tomb Kings lies in their differentness, they are totally unlike every other army, which makes them hard to learn how to handle, once you've learned how they work (through bitter experience) I find they perform very well (even against Delfs and the like), mainly because people don't really know what to expect when tehy fight them.

I wasn't trying to imply that we couldn't perform well. :p

You don't seem to be the type that would not play an army solely because of reputation. I'm just wondering how many potential players out there are the type that see that Tomb Kings are different and harder to win with traditionally than most of the other armies in the game and decide to pick up a different army instead.

Edit: Your edit is spot on exempting Skeleton "Warriors", which I will continue to hate on just because...until I feel they are worth 9-10 points per model (which is highly subjective...but I need something to hate on other than the Bone Giant) :P

Lilike
19-11-2009, 23:56
The warriors are overcosted, the BG moreso.

Mortogul
21-11-2009, 17:07
Sounds all great.

Especialy for an Undead Player like me. I hoped that the Bone Bolt Thrower from Warmaster would have made it into the Fantasy List.

TheZombieSquig
21-11-2009, 17:25
I don't think the models need redoing. And mummies are terrible.

Scelerat
22-11-2009, 00:06
I don't really get what you're saying. You mean mummies are terrible as in "I don't like mummies" or as in "mummy miniatures are terrible". The former would make you a bit of an ass that only entered this thread to state his particular disgust for an army, while the latter would contradict your first sentence. So what are you, sir, contradictory or just plain rude?

Back on topic: this is and will remain wishlisting until someone of the generally-right people confirm or deny or just hint on a direction or the other. I will give pie or any other valued thing to anyone worthy of trust that deigns to comment this topic.

Ludaman
22-11-2009, 00:12
I wouldn't expect Harry or Hastings to pipe up on this until after the beastmen are out. I expect we'll either start hearing more from them regarding Warhammer 8th or the next army right around mid-January.

Scelerat
22-11-2009, 04:40
Nah, I guess they won't say anything... but wouldn't it be great?

blindingdark
22-11-2009, 13:07
Harry ? .....

There, I said it......

He should pop up any time now......Please.....;)

Harry
22-11-2009, 16:17
Harry ? .....

There, I said it......

He should pop up any time now......Please.....;)

How can I help? :D

If I was going to be talking about what was up next after Beastmen ....

.... I still wouldn't be talking about tomb Kings.

Durloth
22-11-2009, 16:32
Well then. Thank you for laying the topic to rest:D

blindingdark
22-11-2009, 16:49
How can I help?

If I was going to be talking about what was up next after Beastmen ....

.... I still wouldn't be talking about tomb Kings.

Hahaha.

You Sir...are a legend.

If I had a hat, I would take it off to you. ;)

So, would you be talking about the next book to be redone, or something else ?

As always, Thanks

Scelerat
22-11-2009, 17:20
Aw, snap.
=(
There goes my faith in humanity.

Chiron
22-11-2009, 18:08
How can I help? :D

If I was going to be talking about what was up next after Beastmen ....

.... I still wouldn't be talking about tomb Kings.

That because its a 40k book after Beastmen with Tomb Kings after that, right?

blindingdark
22-11-2009, 19:19
Im assuming he's keeping 40k out of this..

At least I hope so ;)

ro-sa22
22-11-2009, 20:05
Ha, i knew it...

I see fat Ogres...

Ogres go, Ogres go, Ogres go !!!

Urgat
22-11-2009, 20:05
How can I help? :D

If I was going to be talking about what was up next after Beastmen ....

.... I still wouldn't be talking about tomb Kings.

Let me be bold, for a change: what's after Beastmen?
Mmmmh... I can see you coming from a mile away if I stick to that sentence ><
No, let me rephrase. What Fantasy armybook is going to be released after the beastmen one? I know it's useless asking you, and honestly as long as it's not OK I don't really care, but just for the sake of it, I'll try anyway, because now that skavens have been released, there's just nothing that interests me much in the upcoming stuff... (apart from OK, but even I can guess they're not to come anytime soon >>).

ro-sa22
22-11-2009, 20:13
I really do believe in Ogre Kindoms...

They dont need to put too much effort in this release.
The plastic-range is great, so are the metals.

Maybe 2-3 new hero modells, one new elite unit, and here we are.

Harry?... (I just wanna try it)

Scelerat
22-11-2009, 20:39
Releasing OK before TK would be like adding insult to the injury.
But that's just me hating OK.

blindingdark
22-11-2009, 21:43
You people really dont know how to play this game ;)

Outright asking what is next doesnt usually yield much, But hey, who knows.

Lord Dan
22-11-2009, 22:21
Let me be bold, for a change: what's after Beastmen?
Mmmmh... I can see you coming from a mile away if I stick to that sentence ><
No, let me rephrase. What Fantasy armybook is going to be released after the beastmen one? I know it's useless asking you, and honestly as long as it's not OK I don't really care, but just for the sake of it, I'll try anyway, because now that skavens have been released, there's just nothing that interests me much in the upcoming stuff... (apart from OK, but even I can guess they're not to come anytime soon >>).

I can confirm that it will not be OK.

Scelerat
22-11-2009, 22:23
Thank gawd.
Still sad about TKs, but that's a bit of a relief.

Karham
22-11-2009, 23:04
How can I help? :D

If I was going to be talking about what was up next after Beastmen ....

.... I still wouldn't be talking about tomb Kings.

But you would talk about Blood Angles, right? :D

Spiney Norman
22-11-2009, 23:09
ok, so no 7th edition book for TK or OK, that leaves WE, Bretonnia or Dwarfs as the last 7th Ed book (if they even do another one before the release of 8th, which they might not).

Sorry I can't see the logic of leaving the two crippled books in their crippled state for another year or two and instead redoing an army which is still competitive (which WE, Dwarfs and Brets certainly still are).

CrownAxe
22-11-2009, 23:29
I'm pretty sure Dwarfs are considered a 7ed book

Grimstonefire
22-11-2009, 23:35
Hmmm... Not Ogres & not TK... Sounds suspiciously to me like there will not be another fantasy army redone before 8th? WE and Brets are real outsiders. Which leaves a really long gap for the 'year of fantasy'. :rolleyes:

Either that or someone who is confirming things is wrong? I guess it could be that *something* is next that is unexpected, and that is what they are referring to?

StormCrow
22-11-2009, 23:46
How can I help? :D

If I was going to be talking about what was up next after Beastmen ....

.... I still wouldn't be talking about tomb Kings.

How could someone with such a tasty avatar make me so sad?!:(

ExarPucc
22-11-2009, 23:59
Could we be seeing a new army all together?

/go go nippon
//far fetched i know
///still hopeful

Lady Melisandre
23-11-2009, 00:25
How could someone with such a tasty avatar make me so sad?!:(

Extensive practice. :D

Asp
23-11-2009, 00:25
maybe just a wave for an existing army

Spiney Norman
23-11-2009, 00:44
I'm pretty sure Dwarfs are considered a 7ed book

Whatever you consider them to be, they were released before 7th Edition. In addition they did not contain many special characters, which has been one of the hallmarks of 7th.

JackBurton01
23-11-2009, 04:56
That would make tomb kings after beastmen, which it is not.

abcz417
23-11-2009, 10:39
I supppose O 'n G could be after beastmen. I know they've been more recently done than OK and TK but they are generally considered to be poor.

Also if they're going to be in the new starter set then it might make sense for a new release immediately before 8th. Wasn't this what happened with dwarfs? and I'm fairly sure they had two releases in 7th...

Pure speculation of course ;)

ro-sa22
23-11-2009, 13:05
There is a rumour saying, that o&g will get their book in the first half of 2011, which sounds reasonable to me.

Maybe we actually see a new empire book? The future space marines of fantasy :)

archie-d
23-11-2009, 14:04
i don't mind waiting, just so long as once it hits, it was worth the wait.

on the point about potential TK players being put off by the bad press the kings get on the net, i agree with it to a certain extent, but i think TK's tend to attract a certain kind of player, i started a TK army precisely because they're unfavoured and considered challenging to play.

just my two pence.

ooh, just another thought after reading through the thread Re: sphinx stepping on boney's toes. a 200-300 odd point sphinx would'nt have to step on the toes of the bone giant if they left him pretty much the same and dropped his cost, maybe around the 175 pt hydra area of points costing?

warhawk95
23-11-2009, 19:10
I read the last couple pages of the thread and once harry posted it turned from wishlisting into whos next, lol warseer rumor threads...and i have a feeling he was talking about the next 40k army, because i doubt that the next army isnt going to be OK or TK. dwarves are fine,bretts could use a fixing but they arent bad. WE lol everyone knows they were written with 10th in mind so i dont forsee this happening for a while.

Just a bit about TK, i know in their fluff they were suppose to be an amazing army back when they were alive, maybe a rule or stat boost could be given to signify this. like base WS 3 (this would certainly help justify their points,but not solve it), i mean these arent zombies or just some random skeltons, these are actual warriors who were quite powerful back in the day. i think base WS 3 would make them an average fighter. just my 2cents.

Chainaxe07
23-11-2009, 23:18
Hmmm...by "undead rule stays the same" you mean the same as the old book (highly unlikely IMHO) or the same as the VC book (more likely)?
They arte still pretty similar, just extra wounds from combat res dont ignore ward saves in the current incarnation.

Enigmatik1
24-11-2009, 00:01
Hmmm...by "undead rule stays the same" you mean the same as the old book (highly unlikely IMHO) or the same as the VC book (more likely)?
They arte still pretty similar, just extra wounds from combat res dont ignore ward saves in the current incarnation.

Oh it'll probably stay the same as the old book with the caveat that maybe our Horsemen can flee somehow, assuming they survive into 7E and are somehow made to be worth putting on the table.

After all, the Vampire crumbling rule would do very little for Tomb Kings. Unlike Vampire Counts, we don't have any way to get a unit a Ward nor Regen save. It's Light armor or nothing. So that little bonus wouldn't do us one bit of good.

warhawk95
24-11-2009, 00:56
I wouldnt be suprised if you just got a horseman unit, and were able to upgrade it. Like a bare bone horseman with bow, you can trade the bow for a spear, buy LA and shield for x points. something along those lines. it doesnt make sense to have 2 different unit entries in the book that are identical in stats and only vary in equipment and points. Maybe you guys will get HA i dont see why not.

Enigmatik1
24-11-2009, 02:21
Fluff is the primary reason why Tomb Kings have no access to heavy armor outside of the Bone Giant and two suits of magical armor. Since Nehekhara is a desert region, it makes little sense for its denizens to run around in plate mail. Nevermind that we're talking about Undead who feel no pain and don't suffer from exhaustion or fatigue. :rolleyes:

My point was though, that changing the Undead rule for us to mirror what the Vampire Counts have access to is pointless since we have no way of giving our units additional saves.

Pacorko
24-11-2009, 02:30
So, after wasting time by reading this upto the point above, we are stuck with...

Nothing really solid, just typical wishlisting and speculation.

I really have to stop reading these unsubtantiated rumour-mongering threads, even when they deal with my well-loved TKs. :eyebrows:

Azazyll
24-11-2009, 02:39
Personally, I'm hoping for the rumored Nagash campaign to have it's own book, a la Storm of Chaos. We haven't had one of those in far too long.

warhawk95
24-11-2009, 03:35
Fluff is the primary reason why Tomb Kings have no access to heavy armor outside of the Bone Giant and two suits of magical armor. Since Nehekhara is a desert region, it makes little sense for its denizens to run around in plate mail. Nevermind that we're talking about Undead who feel no pain and don't suffer from exhaustion or fatigue. :rolleyes:

My point was though, that changing the Undead rule for us to mirror what the Vampire Counts have access to is pointless since we have no way of giving our units additional saves.

Ahh im not familiar with TK fluff so i didnt realize this, shame but my woodies suffer the same problem so i feel your pain. and i do agree keep your undead rule the way it is, not only is it pointless but it helps seperate the armies even more which in my case is needed. i have always viewed the VC as an undead horde with strong characers, and the TK as an "elite" undead army with good characters, but certainly not vamps.

Enigmatik1
24-11-2009, 04:17
So, after wasting time by reading this upto the point above, we are stuck with...

Nothing really solid, just typical wishlisting and speculation.

I really have to stop reading these unsubtantiated rumour-mongering threads, even when they deal with my well-loved TKs. :eyebrows:

What did you really expect, Pacorko? We don't have much else to do while we wait our turn, right? ;) Besides, maybe one of these days someone in the know will say something tangible and believable to quell the rampant wishlisting out of frustration...we won't know unless we try...really, really, hard. :p

Edit: Now when will I be able to equip a Tomb King with a Wave Motion Cannon?

JackBurton01
24-11-2009, 05:20
I am just looking forward to seeing the new nagash model

Ymir
24-11-2009, 05:33
Fluff is the primary reason why Tomb Kings have no access to heavy armor outside of the Bone Giant and two suits of magical armor. Since Nehekhara is a desert region, it makes little sense for its denizens to run around in plate mail.

Well, yes and no. Fluff is certainly the reason that they don't have heavy armor, but I hope it's not because someone at GW thought that desert peoples doesn't use heavy armor; just read up a little military history, and you'll find that arabs, persians, turkic peoples, you name it, used heavy armor quite a lot. We have the timurid "tarkhan" heavy cavalry for example, and it was, to my knowledge, the parthians of Persia that began using heavy armored cavalry in the first place, with their cataphracts. This is not to say that heavy armor can't be very uncomfortable in a warm climate, of course it can, but often, the benefits has still outweighed that little drawback. Also, deserts are mainly defined by being dry, not necessarily warm - the deserts of Persia and Central Asia can get very cold even by day (not to mention the deserts of Antarctica :D). I imagine heavy armor would be even more uncomfortable in a warm and wet climate like India and Southeast Asia, and even South Asian civilisations used heavy armor in war.

Rather, I'd think the reason that Tomb Kings doesn't have heavy armour is that heavy armor wasn't really known to the egyptian bronze age civilisation that they're based on (though the hettites or mitanni or such had some kind of primitive heavy armor, if I recall correctly).

mrtn
24-11-2009, 10:27
My point was though, that changing the Undead rule for us to mirror what the Vampire Counts have access to is pointless since we have no way of giving our units additional saves.You can't give them additional saves in this armybook. :eyebrows:
Who's to say that you won't get a banner of Regeneration?

Enigmatik1
24-11-2009, 13:38
You can't give them additional saves in this armybook. :eyebrows:
Who's to say that you won't get a banner of Regeneration?

I reckon its possible, although I'm highly doubtful of it actually happening. People QQ about the Drakenhoff Banner enough as it is now. We don't need no stinkin' Hasslehoff Banner! :p

I don't see GW doing things like this to make us more like Vampire Counts. I hope they go in the opposite direction and at least attempt to better illustrate the difference between the two Undead armies.

@Ymir-

I always thought that they should simply tack on an additional +1 AS with the Embalmed rule and extend the rule to the Tomb Guard. Problem solved. It does complicate things slightly because the TG are only 1 wound, while possibly being flammable.

warhawk95
24-11-2009, 16:29
Well you would think that Enigmatik1, but GW managed to out o the hasselhoff. I dont think i need to tell you the cheese in DE and DoC, so well just leave it at that.

Honestly though I think the worst thing that could happen to TK is if they became a cheesy army. Not because they dont deserve to be powerful, I hope they get a very balanced book with some powerful combos. Its just that all the TK players Ive meet love the challenge of the army and how people underestimate it, and if they became a point and click army (this is unlkely but they could be point drag and click) that would kill alot of the reasons why ppl choose TK.

The Clairvoyant
24-11-2009, 16:42
I chose tomb kings because i had a load of models left in boxes after the split of the undead. I would assume a lot of TK players are the same.
I only found out how hard they were to use afterwards.

Spiney Norman
24-11-2009, 17:20
I reckon its possible, although I'm highly doubtful of it actually happening. People QQ about the Drakenhoff Banner enough as it is now. We don't need no stinkin' Hasslehoff Banner! :p

I don't see GW doing things like this to make us more like Vampire Counts. I hope they go in the opposite direction and at least attempt to better illustrate the difference between the two Undead armies.

@Ymir-

I always thought that they should simply tack on an additional +1 AS with the Embalmed rule and extend the rule to the Tomb Guard. Problem solved. It does complicate things slightly because the TG are only 1 wound, while possibly being flammable.

I thought the theory was that their embalmedness already gave them +1T which is already integrated into the profile (TG and Kings/Princes being 1T more than their living counterparts), it also makes more sense than giving them a pt of AS.

Enigmatik1
24-11-2009, 17:58
I thought the theory was that their embalmedness already gave them +1T which is already integrated into the profile (TG and Kings/Princes being 1T more than their living counterparts), it also makes more sense than giving them a pt of AS.

I don't think it was the point of toughness. I always thought it was the additional wound myself. I don't know. I'm just fishing for a way to get Tomb Guard a better armor save without having to resort to giving them heavy armor.

So shhhhhhhh!:p

lord marcus
25-11-2009, 00:37
why is heavy armor bad? nehekharan heavy armor would be the new shiz.

TombKingKong
25-11-2009, 08:22
As Khemri player, i'd not like to get a Egipcian version of Vampire counts. Khemri has its own style.
We mustn`t wear heavy armour nor march moves nor same magic system nor too much stregth. We are different, we need to be a tactical-player to play Khemri and we could be competitive with only a few things.
Instead of heavy armour, regeneration is the key, but only in few hero cases, like priests.
Stand and shoot is another good idea for our units. Javelins for princes and kings could be usefull. BS 3 for skeleton champions.
Instead of stregth, Armour piercing. For example : Setep-Spear : As spears and Armour piercing. Only with this, we can get units different and more interesting. Think on Tomb Guards with Setep-spears and with no Killing blow at the same cost (12p) or the Heavy Horsemen with this Setep-spears.
Artefact creatures instead of -1 to wounds after combat resolution, -1 for each Artifact Creature in combat.They will die less but it's not overpowered as ward of 5+.
Our magic is less powerful than we need... ok. We could use the power dices to get an extra chant with a choosen hero. And dispersion dices for a point cost for princes and kings, are good too.
The catapult must be more useful, then Skulls of the Enemy instead of -1 Ld, should let re-roll for direction dice or a bound power level 3 to auto cast an the chant of extra shoot.
The bone-giant is another thing... poor one :) WS 4, he must have 5 or 6 attacks at least, Unstoppable Assault should be considered Hate for all porpouses, and D3 wound per wounds to Larges creatures.
A good banner for skeleton archers: the banner let another rank of skeleton archers to shoot. 25p.
Arcane item to let the priests cast further spells.
Hero's charriots D3+1 impacts in charges and if the general is mounted in charriot, one unit of light charriot is considered as basic (but cannot be counted for the minimun of basic).
Carrion US 2....
There are lot of things we they can make with our Army without loosing our identity.
Thanks.

Karham
25-11-2009, 19:32
Arcane item to let the priests cast further spells.
Hero's charriots D3+1 impacts in charges and if the general is mounted in charriot, one unit of light charriot is considered as basic (but cannot be counted for the minimun of basic).

Those rules are already in! :D

Xantus
26-11-2009, 17:17
Greetings,

I agree with many of the comments above, there is no doubt TK needs some tweaking, the rumours definitely introduce some welcomed changes that would "resurrect" this army. However, like many mentioned every army should be unique in skills, functions, stats, etc. not just different in theme or sculptures.

In reference to the rumours, I have the following comments:

- New skeleton miniatures are a must... I had to mod most of my skeletons to make Egyptian themed skellies - shields alone and the odd headgear don't cut it... the old 1991 sculpts should definitely be entombed for good...

- Magic is a big differentiator for TK, the entire army's existence is magical - so they ought to retain encantation uniqueness with a few upgrades as suggested by the rumours

- Casket, upgrades sound reasonable... but many players may still feel that its defense is somewhat poor given its high point value. An increase in bodyguards may be appropriate... double or triple perhaps

- BSB, good to see an upgrade... few players use the icon bearer these days... definitely need alternatives beyond TKs or TPs

- Cavalry, great move to amalgamate both... few players use "heavy cavalry" which in reality is anything but heavy

- Tomb Guard, have a welcomed point reduction - but this may raise eyebrows from opposing players

- Ushabti, perhaps one of the most anticipated fixes to make these wonderful sculpts usable. It would be nice to see Ushabti as an option vs Scorpions as reliable shock troops. Although I think a T5 is still the silver bullet.

- Carrion... Since 2nd edition I've always been against "warhammer airforces" - especially since there is no AA to counter it... this should be left for 40K IMHO. To see these strengthen doesn't necessarily turn my crank

- Scorpions... good idea to increase its points... 5W and US5 will definitely makes these the most effective options available to TK (not that it wasn't previously)... may have an outcry from opponents over these...

- Giant... with the new Ushabti and catapult, why would anyone waste points on these missile magnets?

- Swarms - would like to see these play a more central role within TK armies... increasing limits may help

Cheers,

X.

chaos0xomega
26-11-2009, 18:00
Hey ya'll hate to rain on your parade, but the discussion about OK atm seems to be implying that THEY will be released in May, and TK are being bumped back(although I suppose its entirely possible for a simultaneous release). Either way, Brim (and someone else who I can't remember) implied that the rumor was entirely reasonable, so...

...anyone have any news/rumors pertaining to that?

Spiney Norman
26-11-2009, 22:32
Not to be nasty but the ogres have got less of a rumour than TK have. In reality both are wish-listing, but the fact is the TK book is about 4 years older than the OK one.

The OK thread only started because one of the reliable rumourers said, rather cryptically that TK wasn't next.

Selorian
26-11-2009, 22:37
I recently started a Tomb Kings army and I hope that a new Army Book and miniatures are on their way in 2010.

Spiney Norman
26-11-2009, 22:44
Thats looking majorly unlikely now. Unless TK are released in May we wont be getting them for a while.

There are some really strong rumours that 8th Edition will be released in the summer which will reset the army book revision cycle, although once the new Beasts book comes out TK will be the oldest army book by about 4 years.

decker_cky
26-11-2009, 22:53
Not to be nasty but the ogres have got less of a rumour than TK have. In reality both are wish-listing, but the fact is the TK book is about 4 years older than the OK one.

The OK thread only started because one of the reliable rumourers said, rather cryptically that TK wasn't next.

A comment from Brimstone affirming OK being upcoming is why OK are much more reliable. ;)

Dr. Who
26-11-2009, 23:08
A comment from Brimstone affirming OK being upcoming is why OK are much more reliable. ;)

OK makes more sense too, seing that they do not need much modelwise, especially the plastic kits are fine. Makes it easier for GW to do the project in a relative short time frame - if indeed that is what is happening.

TK on the other needs a bit more work because the plastic kits needs to be brought in line with the current VC skeletons (IMHO anyway).

- Dr.

chaos0xomega
26-11-2009, 23:51
Not to be nasty but the ogres have got less of a rumour than TK have. In reality both are wish-listing, but the fact is the TK book is about 4 years older than the OK one.

The OK thread only started because one of the reliable rumourers said, rather cryptically that TK wasn't next.

And the same reliable rumourer said, rather cryptically, that the Ogres WERE next.

Also, the Ogres are the Tau of Fantasy, new kids on the block that need a rule buff but are good to go when it comes to models. Tau, despite being new, were one of the first to get fixed in 4th edition, supplanting armies such as Necrons, DE, IG, Orks, and other "better selling" armies.

Spiney Norman
27-11-2009, 00:46
Actually we're almost at OK's place in the cycle, although the Bretonnian book is slightly older if I'm right.

TK just seem to have dropped out of the cycle, they ought to have been after High elves but before Lizardmen.

archie-d
27-11-2009, 09:35
does the fact that ogre kingdoms seem to be on the horizon for next year mean tomb kings automatically arent also?

Avian
27-11-2009, 09:38
No. We only got two armies this year, but we got four last year. On average we get about three army books per year.

zandramas
27-11-2009, 09:58
This year they are launching 8th and O&G and probably Empire,its May or never xD

Avian
27-11-2009, 10:03
Oh ye of little faith. :rolleyes:

Scelerat
27-11-2009, 14:28
Oh, you good-news-or-at-least-hints bringer, I sing your praise.
:D

chaos0xomega
27-11-2009, 18:51
From what I understand, next year is meant to be really tight when it comes to releases, for fantasy anyway, as the design team instituted some new policies a while back which enabled them to handle more projects simultaneously and get them done faster... so no, just because OK are in May does not mean TK are out for next year.

Eumerin
27-11-2009, 19:17
It's not just the idea of OK in May that's causing doubt. It's the rumor that 8th edition is coming out in the Summer. The first couple of armies out following the release of 8th edition are all but guaranteed to be from the more popular armies. TK aren't in that group.

So even if GW releases four armies next year, it's still almost certainly May or 2011 for TK.

Xantus
27-11-2009, 19:19
That makes sense, as it is in their interest to expedite these projects in order to increase sales and revive interest in the game for those that have taken a break.

Cheers,

X.

Enigmatik1
28-11-2009, 06:40
It's not just the idea of OK in May that's causing doubt. It's the rumor that 8th edition is coming out in the Summer. The first couple of armies out following the release of 8th edition are all but guaranteed to be from the more popular armies. TK aren't in that group.

So even if GW releases four armies next year, it's still almost certainly May or 2011 for TK.

Isn't it possible that this is circular logic on the part of GW? As the most dated army, is it possible that the very fact that we would be entering our eigth year under the current rulebook also be contributing to our relative popularity?

Shiny, new toys generate interest. That isn't to say that people are going to abandon their Daemon armies to start TK armies if we got a new book this century (:angel:), but people who were looking to start a new army anyway might be drawn to some new material, models and/or fluff that didn't exist before.

Eumerin
28-11-2009, 06:48
Tell that to the Dark Eldar.

:rolleyes:

Grimstonefire
28-11-2009, 13:48
I know there will always be some armies that are more popular than others, probably those from the fantasy archetypes, but as I think enigmatik was saying if GW were to release old armies that are not so popular they could make them a lot more popular. So if TK and Ogres are amongst the next few releases, and the starter set is O&G V Empire I don't see this being an issue at all.

The starter sets are just to get people into warhammer, they are not the focus of the whole year. Those who want to expand the armies from the starter sets would not be put off by TK being released.

I think it's a good idea GW not releasing empire and/or O&G anywhere near the release, as it would encourage those new to the hobby to take a bigger interest in TK and Ogres.

Edit:
Is it just me, or could I have posted this in any one of the top few rumour threads and it wouldn't matter? They all seem to be pretty much the same at the moment. :)

orlanth1000
28-11-2009, 14:32
Is it just me, or could I have posted this in any one of the top few rumour threads and it wouldn't matter? They all seem to be pretty much the same at the moment. :)

Yes,yes you could. All you would have to do, to make them identical would be to add a long boring discussion on the magic system and kill points, and you would be there. :D

What changes they make to how Tomb kings( as well as Beasts and Ogres ) play is what is exciting me the most, how they bring them into line with Daemons and VC for example, especially with the new edition fantasy around the corner......good times. :D

Hertic Bane
28-11-2009, 17:36
should be cool to see some new tomb kings out there.

Xantus
28-11-2009, 17:51
The caveat being that TKs don't get too aligned to VCs - as I think the vast majority of players enjoy the unique appeal generated by TKs. I think many of us are hoping for changes to Casket, Ushabti, Cavalry, etc... but not to magic which greatly differentiates us.

Cheers,

X.