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zeekill
14-11-2009, 18:53
Is it worth it to put the shields on your stormvermin? By my logic sure its an extra point per model, but without the shields they have one attack each at WS4 S4, which is quite average at best. Instead, you obtain a 3+ save, and can still use your halberds if you charge.

But in the end if you are going for a save you can get a 4+ save in combat from a 4.5 point clanrat rather than a 3+ from an 8 point stormvermin.

Is the Halberds, +1 WS, and +1 to save (and +1 I but that doesnt matter too much) worth 3.5 points?

Enrico
14-11-2009, 18:57
No. There really isn't much call for using Stormvermin at all actually. If a Skaven player wants to kill things in close combat, there are Censer Bearers, Rat Ogres and Abominations.

If he wants 3 ranks, standard, strength and a 4+ save in combat there are Clanrats.

Stormvermin seem like they are trying to fill a niche that doesn't exist.

The only use I can see for them is to take a whole bunch of units of 10 with a Doomflayer in an MSU army maybe...? I just don't think they are worth their points at all, with or without shields, compared to the other choices in the list.

Sintram
14-11-2009, 19:07
And they aren't the best looking unit either, but they could bee good if you take Queek.

Enrico
14-11-2009, 19:16
For 4 points? Sorry, but 1 WS4 S4(5) I6 attack is not worth 11 points a model.

Ward.
14-11-2009, 19:27
Is it worth it to put the shields on your stormvermin? By my logic sure its an extra point per model, but without the shields they have one attack each at WS4 S4, which is quite average at best. Instead, you obtain a 3+ save, and can still use your halberds if you charge.

But in the end if you are going for a save you can get a 4+ save in combat from a 4.5 point clanrat rather than a 3+ from an 8 point stormvermin.

Is the Halberds, +1 WS, and +1 to save (and +1 I but that doesn't matter too much) worth 3.5 points?

Shields are the way to go, even if you only use them to get a 4+ save against ranged attacks.
Stormvermin aren't very good though, they need a special rule to go along with their points decrease.

Arjuna
14-11-2009, 19:44
Too much math hammer in all the stormvermin arguements. For example, the stormvermin are core whereas censer bearers are special. There are many excellent special choices so I expect I will always want to take more special units than allowed. Thus Enrico's suggestion to just take the censer bearers, abomination, or rat ogre's when "you want to kill something" is a very simple minded approach to both writing an army list and using it in a game.

I agree that statistical comparisons based on cost and abilities are important but too many players over emphasize this aspect of evaluating units.

AtmaTheWanderer
14-11-2009, 20:06
I have a unit of stormvermin that I run because I love the new models for them, I consider shields a must. But honestly, as others have said there's not much purpose for them in the army.

selone
14-11-2009, 20:06
I like stormvermin though I could see why people consider them sub-optimal. Good models, decent prince, decent on battlefield, can take magic banner. Yes give them shields.

Mad Makz
15-11-2009, 04:20
More Resilient than Clanrats (especially when equipped with shields), Can take a magic banner, Core.

Plenty of reason to take one unit of Stormvermin right there, especially to house a warlord, because once they reach combat they don't die as fast thus you lose combat by less or win combat by more and your Lord is less likely to break.

Stormbanner, Banner of the Under Empire, Warbanner or even Banner of Verminous Scurrying are all reasons to consider Stormvermin.

Gaargod
15-11-2009, 13:24
Stormbanner... are all reasons to consider Stormvermin.

And we have a winner!

Stormbanner is the best reason for them. They fill your obligatory core and they can carry the damm banner so you don't need a BSB to do so. If you're gonna take them, you may as well give them shields.

shinankoku
15-11-2009, 13:32
Another factor is: who are you playing? I took a unit of SV against empire, they went through units like a hot knife through butter. Other units couldn't do that. I wouldn't bring them against tough armies, though.

king.rat
15-11-2009, 13:51
Is it worth it to put the shields on your stormvermin? By my logic sure its an extra point per model, but without the shields they have one attack each at WS4 S4, which is quite average at best. Instead, you obtain a 3+ save, and can still use your halberds if you charge.

But in the end if you are going for a save you can get a 4+ save in combat from a 4.5 point clanrat rather than a 3+ from an 8 point stormvermin.

Is the Halberds, +1 WS, and +1 to save (and +1 I but that doesnt matter too much) worth 3.5 points?

Shields are a must just for a weeny bit more protection against missile fire to get them into combat, then you can switch to halberds. Against super killers like chaos they are not much use. Then a large unit with a bell, command and Suitable banner can be stuck slightly ahead of your battle line to get charged on purpose just so you can take the flanks and rears. Unbreakable may be out of character but it is usefull:D

Dageo
15-11-2009, 14:21
I'm goin to do my best to break them down into pros and cons, in the way I see it...

Pros:
- Compared to a clanrat, they are 3 points more expensive. If you count the heavy armour as a 1 point upgrade, and the halberd as another 1 point upgrade, then all your actually paying is an additional 1 point for +1 WS and I.
- In desperate situations, you can death frenzy them for 3 S4 attacks each :D.
- They put the PH33r in the enemy (no idea why).
- They can take magic banners (can you say "storm banner"?).
- The models look damn sweet!
- They're fluffy.
- They're core!

Cons:
- After adding shields, a unit of 30 with command is 265 points (same as plague monk with magic banner of rerolls). When you add in a weapon team and magic banner too, your nearing 400 points.
- The +1 armour compared to clanrats helps vs light shooting, but against handguns and war machines means diddly squat.
- For the cost of 30, you could get 30 clanrats (w/spears and shields), and 2 units of 20 slaves, which will most likely perform better.

If I've missed anything then I am sorry.

Overall though, it's more a matter of preference than anything else. I will be fielding a large unit in 3k point games with a warlord (possibly queek).

Even though for their points they don't perform much better than clan rats, at least it's not as bad as the whole Orcs to Biguns upgrade cost (or Black Orcs for that matter).

enygma7
15-11-2009, 17:47
No, stormvermin aren't worth the points (but if you do take them shields are a must buy). If they had LD6 maybe they'd be worth it for their own sake, but they don't. Their strength is that they die less easily than clanrats so they do have a use - I just don't think it justifies the points. The main competetive reason to take them is the magic banner. I think a battle standard is a very good choice in a skaven army but that he is better off with defensive equipment (foul pendant, enchanted shield...) leaving storm vermin one of only 2 units capable of taking a magic banner.

I'll still field them because they are essential to my background theme and they make a nice armoured centrepiece to break up the sea of clanrats and slaves...

You can also death frenzy them for a nasty 3 S4 attacks each if you can cope with the pain of all those expensive models dying... A good one for the end of the game maybe or if they are going to die without it anyway.

Gormereth, the Fearmonger
15-11-2009, 17:57
Stormvermin fill the roll of an anvil unit if there is no Screamingbell, Plaguefurnace or other massive and unbreakable unit present. They would really only be for low point value games where their resilience is not made redundent by previously mentioned units and maybe against Ogres, Orcs, or other armies that fill the rare niché where their toughness is decent enough to pass most tests from plague monks, but WS4 is good enough to hit on 3+.

Briohmar
15-11-2009, 19:00
I'm goin to do my best to break them down into pros and cons, in the way I see it...

Pros:
- Compared to a clanrat, they are 3 points more expensive. If you count the heavy armour as a 1 point upgrade, and the halberd as another 1 point upgrade, then all your actually paying is an additional 1 point for +1 WS and I.

Which is perfectly legitimate, as most elites have to pay 2 points per model for heavy armor, and up to 2 points for the WS and Init. So they're a bargain as they are. How much do you figure LD 10 should cost?


- They can take magic banners (can you say "storm banner"?).
- The models look damn sweet!
- They're fluffy.
- They're core!

And these are also all valid reasons to take them, the banner particularly.


Cons:

- The +1 armour compared to clanrats helps vs light shooting, but against handguns and war machines means diddly squat.

I'm failing to see how still having a 6+ save against handguns and a 5+ against crossbows is a downside, you still have a chance to keep some alive instead of them instantly dying, and if that 1 save keeps you from takinga panic test, its worth the points. The argument about warmachines is just silly, as nobody gets saves against them anyways, so you might as well argue, I shouldn't have to pay points for armor since it doesn't work against cannons and bolt throwers.

Von Wibble
15-11-2009, 19:49
I agree with Briohmar - after squinting heavily to read his posts ;)

Seriously - use a bright colour on a black background. Like this

You can get a decent sized unit (25) with magic banner, weapon team and shields for around 300pts. They have a decent armour save. They hit with S4/5 (I would purchase the shields). That shroud of death banner looks very nice also.

Also, you can look at it as stormvermin are worse in their role than the alternatvies - but they are better than them as well. Sure, clanrats provide rank bonus for less - but they don't have a S5 charge and have worse armour. Plague monks have no armour and are less reliable. Censer bearers and Rat Ogres are vulnerable to shooting. What if I want lots of jezzails, globadiers and gutter runners - where can I select a semi-elite combat unit now?

They certainly aren't a must take unit. But imo they aren't a mustn't take either. Which is as it should be.

therat
15-11-2009, 22:03
I agree with Briohmar - after squinting heavily to read his posts ;)


You just gotta highlight, bro!

7-8pt elites don't sound like a bad idea to me. They certainly do not perform like other elite units, but they do tend to hold up better than clanrats. Although you can take more clannies as opposed to stormies, the latter are more killy.

I'm torn on the shields, though. 4+ vs missile sounds good, and the potential to get a 3+ in cc is tempting, but idk. I'd almost always rather have the +1S. Honestly, though, I just don't feel like putting shields on them :p

Von Wibble
16-11-2009, 21:34
Well, I wouldn't think of stormvermin as elites as such. They will still lose to some armies core units in combat. But they can take the role when needed.

As to shields, its a 25-30pt upgrade (I don't imagine larger units unless going for unbreakable - then you might as well have clanrats) - and you never know when you'll need the 3+ save. Its a given that its going to be hugely useful when charged by S5 cavalry as it will almost certainly bounce - even some S6 might. For that reason I'd rather have them and lose a jezzail or rat swarm somewhere.

zeekill
17-11-2009, 02:41
Is the stormbanner one use only? It hints at it just a little but I think the way its worded it isnt. Opinions?

Also I think a good combo (if you want to use the stormvermin) would be:

30 Stormvermin, FC, Shields, Grand Banner of Clan Superiority
Chieftain, BSB, Warbanner (Plus other mundane equipment)

This gives you 3 Ranks + Outnumber + BSB + Warbanner + D3 for GBoCS
3+1+1+1+D3= 7-9 Static Combat Res, and with a 3+ Save I dont think you will die too much. Or if you charge use Halberds and Death frenzy yourself. You could easily win against big blocks of chaos warriors with this unit in the flank (with a doomwheel or something to ensure you kill him when you pursue).

Its a lot of points, but it could also achieve a lot. If you play your cards right.

Alathir
17-11-2009, 12:40
I find them quite viable, if only for the weapon skill 4, which means that enemy knights and most elves find themselves in a tough position. Plus, with a 3+ armour save you have quite a survivable unit. I usually take them with a Battle Standard leading them and use them as a bit of a static bomb.

Edit
17-11-2009, 17:18
I'm going with a badlands/rictus theme, so I'm taking 3 units of them at 2250.
no pestilence means no monks and no censurs, so they give me a little more hitty than clanrats if I need it and a little more defense if I need that. Are they optimal, no. But they are decently cheap and nice models.
the warmachines and specials do all the damage anyway, might as well look good while you take a table corner :)

Sintram
17-11-2009, 18:19
I said good, not worth it.

blackjack
17-11-2009, 18:20
Lets face it, the only core you are going to see in competive skaven lists are slaves and perhapes a clan block to push a bell.

Censor bearers and plauge monks with furnaces are where it's at in spechial and doom wheels or abominations in Rare.

the cookie cutterdom has already started.

Nu Fenix
17-11-2009, 20:21
Well then my army using Giant Rats will never be competitive by that logic.

But it will be fun :D

stashman
17-11-2009, 22:28
If you use Queek, the stormvermins with WS5 S4/5 will have shields. That is still S4 and 3+ armorsave (not using halberd).

Thats 12 points a rat, but it is a good rat.

Comparing "elite" troops

20 WoC Chaos Warriors WS5 S4 (Halberd & Shield, FC) 370 pts
20 Lizardmen Temple Guard WS4 S4 (FC) 355 pts
20 HE Phoenix Guard WS5 S3 (FC) 330 pts
20 O&G Black Orcs WS4 S4 (Shield, FC) 318 pts
20 DE Black Guard WS5 S3 (FC) 295 pts
20 Skaven "Queek Bodyguard" WS5 S4 (Shield, FC) 265 pts
20 DoW Paymasters Bodyguard WS4 S3 (Heavy Armor, FC) 230 pts

Compared to this, the Queek Bodyguard Stormvermins are CHEAP and CORE!!! How many other armies have the opportunity to play a BIG "elite" unit and still have plenty of "throw a ways units".

And with I5 they are fast

Sepulcher
18-11-2009, 06:41
Always take shields for any "elite" unit.

Stormvermin are superior to clanrats because WS 4 means elves, dwarves, marauders, swordsmen, etc will hit you on a 4+ instead of 3+. You will hit standard troops on a 3+ instead of a 4+ as well. You have the option of a 3+ save instead of just 4+. You also have the option of wounding standard troops on a 3+ or tough troops on a 4+. In addition you can modify armor saves.

Really, other than people who want to fill their deployment zone with troops that will never get into combat, I see no reason not to take at least one unit of stormvermin.

Max_Killfactor
18-11-2009, 12:14
If you're taking them, you gotta take shields. The option for a 3+ save in combat plus WS 4 makes them a pretty tough infantry unit.

Whether or not you take them is a tougher call. I'm currently including them because I want a Stormbanner on a unit. My BsB can then get items to make him more survivable.

shadow hunter
18-11-2009, 12:45
Well, I've put shields on the majority of the new plastic ones, looks like I should start putting some on my old metal ones.

Gotta remember with that comparison earlier - some of those troops were also T4 and more attacks - so they will be dearer. I'd love T4 aswell as a good armour save. :p

PvtHudson
20-02-2011, 03:07
I dont understand why people say Stormvermin cant use shields if they have halberds. Is it because a halberd is two handed? Why give the option to add a shield then

Tower_Of_The_Stars
20-02-2011, 03:19
I dont understand why people say Stormvermin cant use shields if they have halberds. Is it because a halberd is two handed? Why give the option to add a shield then

Under the new rules the SV would have to use their halberd in combat which is two handed so yes, they wouldn't be able to use their shields. The option is there for extra protection against ranged attacks. A pretty pointless upgrade if you ask me.

vinny t
20-02-2011, 03:38
I'm unsure but it seems as if people believe you can use the shields in cc. The Stormvermin cannot elect to use shields instead of halberds. There is a rule that specifically prohibits this.

That having been said, I like Stormvermin. Run a big points denial unit like 50 with fc, stormbanner and Warpfire Thrower. Then have them run alongside the bell/furnace unit and provide a hammer to their anvil. 30 S4 attacks is pretty good.

Gekiganger
20-02-2011, 04:20
I'm unsure but it seems as if people believe you can use the shields in cc. The Stormvermin cannot elect to use shields instead of halberds. There is a rule that specifically prohibits this.

Aye, many people seem to have suggested this. Unfortunately under the new rules that's not possible. SV would be significantly better IF you could opt to use HW + Shield, or if the shields came as standard. Alas, they don't.



That having been said, I like Stormvermin. Run a big points denial unit like 50 with fc, stormbanner and Warpfire Thrower. Then have them run alongside the bell/furnace unit and provide a hammer to their anvil. 30 S4 attacks is pretty good.

Indeed, especially if you have wither or death frenzy thrown from said anvil.

HAMMERSTACHE
20-02-2011, 07:00
Stormvermin are a great unit to aid in the spamming of war machines- they cost 70pts for the base unit rather then 80 for clan rats. Their smaller footprint is extremely helpful in larger games where you are having problems fitting your army on the board. They are also more durable to shooting and are a very nice flanking unit- their high initiative also protects them from the common "doomsday" spells.

innerwolf
20-02-2011, 07:08
They have amazing models, and are good flankers for their price. But They shine with Death Frenzy, it's like it was created with them in mind. 3 St 4 attacks a piece with ini 5 is just brutal, and you can have enough numbers to absorb the self-inflicted cassualties.

tarkin1980
20-02-2011, 07:35
Seems like a whole bunch of you folks need to take a good look at the rule book.

First of all, stormvermin can't use their shields in close combat. Models that have any weapon other than a hand weapon are forced to use it. There is no choice.

Second, even if you did have a choice, heavy armor plus shield is a 4+ save, not a 3+.

This means that stormvermin have a 5+ save in close combat, and no parry save, while a clanrat with light armor and shield also has a 5+ save followed by a parry save of 6+ (unless they have spears, ofc), making them more survivable than stormvermin.

I still think stormvermin are very much worth the points, though. It's only a 2 points upgrade from a clanrat with the same armor save, which is a good deal for +1S, +1WS and +1I. The most important factor, though, is that they can take a magic standard. This is where you put the 10 pts flaming banner from the BRB. This standard is absolutely essential in a competitive army, with all the regeneration stuff out there (Hydra, HPA, Trolls, etc).

As some have pointed out already, they are also core and can take weapon teams. I think weapon teams are horrible and not anywhere near worth their points, though, but that's another story.

Aljoman
20-02-2011, 09:13
Thread necromancer casts raise dead.

It's super effective.

Lord Solar Plexus
20-02-2011, 13:15
First of all, stormvermin can't use their shields in close combat. Models that have any weapon other than a hand weapon are forced to use it. There is no choice.

Second, even if you did have a choice, heavy armor plus shield is a 4+ save, not a 3+.

To be fair, when this thread was started about two years ago, none of that was true. Perhaps a whole bunch of you need to take a close look at the age of a thread. :p

tarkin1980
20-02-2011, 14:44
To be fair, when this thread was started about two years ago, none of that was true. Perhaps a whole bunch of you need to take a close look at the age of a thread. :p

Wow, I guess I only checked the dates of the last page of posts.

Ultimate Life Form
20-02-2011, 14:58
Threadomancy at its best again. No, SV can't use Shields in combat. Yes, it's merely for protection from shooting. Yes, the Stormbanner does a far better job at this. Case (and thread) closed.

Crube
20-02-2011, 15:26
Major threadmancy

Please check the date of the last post before replying

Thread closed

Crube
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