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View Full Version : You can't cast spells with extra dispel dice...



Enrico
15-11-2009, 05:10
So why should you be able to dispel Remains in Play Spells with power dice in your own magic phase?

Too many spells are totally ruined by being RiP. Even if they have a useful ability, in the opponent's phase they will just be dispelled, usually with ease. This is painfully obvious if you have ever played Ogres or tried to use Flaming Sword.

Pretty much every single RiP spell is nothing more than a poor cousin of an "until caster's next magic phase" spell, so why shouldn't they last at least that long?

Yes, I know there is a penalty associated with forgoing your own spellcasting to dispel the RiP spell, but it's not enough of a penalty, and it makes no sense.

I think RiP spells should only be dispellable in future friendly magic phases using dispel dice.

Power dice are power dice, and should not be used to dispel (perhaps not even during a 5-6 miscast).

Condottiere
15-11-2009, 05:21
It's annoying, but it's not unbalanced - neither is committing Power Die for dispelling a guarantee that this occurs.

Ultimate Life Form
15-11-2009, 05:24
Because that's how the rules work?!?

I think it's supposed to depict a 'battle of minds' between the enemy wizards. The wizard has to spend some of his own power (hence power dice) to do away with enemy magic once he missed the chance to dispel the casting attempt underway.

But you're right, and I think your change would solve many problems. In my opinion, RiP should be ditched entirely. Why? Because it prevents the wizard from doing anything else ever again, which is extremely hurtful for spellcaster lords. For example the comet of cassandora. It's great when my Slann gets it off, but if it doesn't work until my next magic phase? Then I have the option to either drop my 12+ spell, making the whole thing pointless to begin with, or to forego my entire spellcasting (with a Slann Mage-Priest for god's sake!) probably only to see the comet dispelled. There is a reason why I never take Heaven with my Slann.

There are plenty of new spells that simply last 'until...' without RiP. No one needs RiP. It should be eradicated in the next edition.

Enrico
15-11-2009, 05:35
RiP should be ditched entirely.
I agree. Unfortunately there are many of them in existing books, so something would have to be done with them.


Because that's how the rules work?!?
I don't think the rules do work. I don't think there is a single RiP spell that is worth casting and maintaining. RiP is a huuuuuuuuge drawback to a spell.

EDIT:
Maybe Titillating Delusions.

Ultimate Life Form
15-11-2009, 05:49
I agree. Unfortunately there are many of them in existing books, so something would have to be done with them.


You could simply insert a rule that defines a fixed duration for spells with RiP specification.

Aljoman
15-11-2009, 05:59
If anyone can do the leg work i think there are only 2 RiP spells in the past year or so(longer come to think of it) curse of years and flames of the phoenix with undead and high elves respectively. Could be a taste of things to come in a new edition getting rid of them?

Condottiere
15-11-2009, 06:01
RiP is fine - if you have a spell with duration, the spellcaster should concentrate on it. You then could get nifty upgrades like multi-tasking, that allows you to have two RiP spells in play.

Enrico
15-11-2009, 06:15
RiP is fine - if you have a spell with duration, the spellcaster should concentrate on it. You then could get nifty upgrades like multi-tasking, that allows you to have two RiP spells in play.

Then what about all the spells that have a duration that either just have permanent effects, like Wither, Death Frenzy, Acquiescence, etc. or last until the start of the Caster's next turn (too numerous to mention at this point)?

These spells are infinitely better than a RiP equivalent.

There have been more than 2 RiP spells lately though. Titillating Delusions, already mentioned, Curse of the Leper, and perhaps one or two more that escape me right now.

RiP is a flawed and silly gimmick that should have stayed in roleplaying games.

If the Wizard has to concentrate lots, reflect that in the casting cost.

Ward.
15-11-2009, 06:22
but it's not enough of a penalty, and it makes no sense.


Oh yes it is, especially if it's something like flames of the phoenix or a 7+ spell that will require 3 power dice to dispel it.
If you can't see where the advantage is in something like that you need to do some deeper thinking.

Enrico
15-11-2009, 06:25
But that's not what I'm casting a spell for.

I'm casting it to do whatever it is I want it to do.

If I wanted to cast a spell that removed a couple of his power dice from the next magic phase I would try and find that spell.

It's stupid that every single RiP spell could have as their description:


Flaming Sword, 5+ Remains in Play.
Pretty much do nothing at all. Next turn your opponent loses a couple of power dice.

If you can't see why that's stupid and boring and lame and doesn't belong in the game, I don't know what to say.

And it's not enough of a penalty because it puts all the control over what happens in your opponent's hands. They should suffer at least 1 full turn of the spell's effects.

Ymir
15-11-2009, 06:34
Dudes, PANDEMONIUM is Remain in Play. I played an 8000 points übermegabattle just now, got Pandemonium off twice, and saw it completely cripple the magic phase of two slanns and two high elf archmages, and all their wizard underlings. Not to say that the concept of Remain in Play couldn't be done away with, but there are at least one remain in play-spell around that is made really, really nasty because of how remain in play works. (But of course, Pandemonium could have been worded differently and still be a nightmare). Still, Pandemonium is so good that one you've gotten it up, if the opponent should fail to dispel it in his/their magic phase, it might often be worth it to keep it up even if it locks down a lvl 4 wizard for you - I know I should have done that when I could in this battle, but I actually had such bad conscience about how horribly sadistic it was combined with infernal puppet that even cancelling it to pull of an Infernal Gateway seemed less like bad sportsmanship :cries:

I'd say that a problem with Remain in Play is that Tomb Kings can't deal with it. Maybe that's just me being biased, but Flames of the Phoenix will usually eat them up without fail.

Geep
15-11-2009, 06:38
It's a threat to your opponent- they could use some of their power dice for a chance to dispel your spell, or they could leave it be and risk the consequences. I like that mechanic to the Remains in Play spells.

If you'd prefer a guaranteed, specific spell effect (as much as anything is guaranteed in this game) don't cast a Remains in Play spell. Try to take a Lore with fewer spells of this type. You can get around this issue pretty easily with most armies.

Ward.
15-11-2009, 06:40
And it's not enough of a penalty because it puts all the control over what happens in your opponent's hands. They should suffer at least 1 full turn of the spell's effects.

That's a huge penalty and almost lets magic light armies compete with heavy magic armies.
Something that the game needs more of.

Souppilgrim
15-11-2009, 07:15
I agree with the original poster 100%. If you like remains in play, fine, but at least be honest and replace the text with "reduces your opponents power dice by X amount next turn"

Vermin-thing
15-11-2009, 07:35
Some of the new Skaven spells are not RiP, but just last until the end of the game. This could be a new mechanic for 8th. I really don't like it when my level 2 wizard gets 2 RiP spells, and so can only cast one spell per turn. I payed good points for the second level.

Condottiere
15-11-2009, 09:47
The problem with spells that by-pass the duration aspect of RiP spells is that you then need a very strong anti-magic aspect in order to prevent their casting, and since this is linked to your magic potential in general, you have to have lots of spell-casters just to establish it.

narrativium
15-11-2009, 10:29
Personally I'd like to see a few more spells of the RiP type - I think there are getting to be too many spells of the type "until the caster's next Magic Phase" which I can't do anything about. But then I play magic-light armies.

Tae
15-11-2009, 10:33
Dudes, PANDEMONIUM is Remain in Play..

This.

Get Pandemonium off and your opponent has a choice - risk casting any spells before trying to get rid of it, or suck it up and lose a magic phase to make sure they get rid of pandemonium without blowing their wizards up.

Plus you'll be surprised how many opponents can forget to dispell RIP spells when their own magic phase is so busy, as by the time it gets to dispelling RIP spells (the end of their magic phase) they've either forgotten or blown their dice.

Is it perfect? Nope. Is it better than only being able to dispell them in friendly magic phases? Definately.

The Red Scourge
15-11-2009, 11:50
Stop teasing the cat. I can't concentrate with this incessant whining going on ;)

Next you'll be whining about why most bound spells have a power level of 3, meaning opponents have a good chance to dispel it on a single die. Or why swordmasters are only T3 with a 5+ save meaning they never reach combat. Its just a game and a rule, its up to you to make the best of it. If you really need that Flaming Sword of Rhuin, then just make sure, you break the enemy on the first round, so you won't need it on the next :)

Its called balance, it poses tactical challenges, its what makes the game fun ;)

Von Wibble
15-11-2009, 13:02
Dudes, PANDEMONIUM is Remain in Play. I played an 8000 points übermegabattle just now, got Pandemonium off twice, and saw it completely cripple the magic phase of two slanns and two high elf archmages, and all their wizard underlings. Not to say that the concept of Remain in Play couldn't be done away with, but there are at least one remain in play-spell around that is made really, really nasty because of how remain in play works. (But of course, Pandemonium could have been worded differently and still be a nightmare). Still, Pandemonium is so good that one you've gotten it up, if the opponent should fail to dispel it in his/their magic phase, it might often be worth it to keep it up even if it locks down a lvl 4 wizard for you - I know I should have done that when I could in this battle, but I actually had such bad conscience about how horribly sadistic it was combined with infernal puppet that even cancelling it to pull of an Infernal Gateway seemed less like bad sportsmanship :cries:

I'd say that a problem with Remain in Play is that Tomb Kings can't deal with it. Maybe that's just me being biased, but Flames of the Phoenix will usually eat them up without fail.

Tomb Kings have Enkhil's Kenopi. Essential item for just such an occurence. Dwarfs meanwhile do have issues.

I have to agree that such a mehanic should be ditched. Pandemonium is about the only spell where it doesn't matter - FOTP and COY are spells with an instant effect so RIP matters less. Titillating Delusions is hugely overpowered so needs a major rules change (I can't believe it wasn't nerfed since any spell providing the player with a guaranteed flank charge and easy victory over a powerful enemy unit is clearly too good).

Meanwhile Howler wind is a spell pretty much guaranteed to have no effect against the armies it should be good against, since any opponent will just dispel it. Lasts one turn is absolutely the right way to go.

Harwammer
15-11-2009, 14:05
I think in general RiP works as a mechanic. There are a few exceptions, such as the lore of heavens shield spell, which is near useless against dwarfs (they'll use their two power dice to remove the spell before the shooting phase begins ~60% of the time).

Against dwarfs and their guns this should be one of the most useful spells, not useless. At least against any other army you get a little bit of protection from magic missiles before the spell is stripped.

I'd suggest the spell is amended to last until the next friendly magic phase. The casting value certainly shouldn't be raised or it will become useless by being hard for a level 2 to cast.

RiP spells which are only active in the opponents turn really need to take effect before the magic phase or require more than 2 or 3 dice to reliably dispel it otherwise even a basic caddy will be able to strip it safely.

sorberec
15-11-2009, 14:30
Personally I'd change RIP spells by allowing the wizard to cast another spell still but making the wizard, in his subsequent magic phases, sacrifice 1 power dice per 6 points of casting cost for the spell as the price for maintaining the spell.

For example. A Level 2 Wizard manages to cast Wall of Fire which casts on 12. The following turn he loses his 2 power dice (12 / 6 = 2) to sustain the spell but can still his other spell using pool dice.

Condottiere
15-11-2009, 14:50
The alternative is making the casting value of the next spell higher, to reflect the continued concentration for the RiP spell.

march10k
15-11-2009, 15:56
You can't cast spells with extra dispel dice...


Sure you can...ever heard of the rod of power?

Enrico
15-11-2009, 16:37
The alternative is making the casting value of the next spell higher, to reflect the continued concentration for the RiP spell.

How much higher though?
Do you really think that Celestial Shield, which provides a 4+ ward save against shooting and magic missiles, should have a higher casting cost than 7+ if it just lasted for one turn? Compare with Fleshy Abundance, which provides straight up Regeneration until the start of the next friendly magic phase and is also cast on a 7+.

Do you think Flaming Sword should have a higher casting cost than 5+ if it only lasted until the start of the caster's next magic phase? When Miasma of Pestilence is cast on a 3+ and lasts until the start of the caster's next magic phase?

Do you think that if you made Comet of Cassandora not RiP it should have a higher casting cost? Considering it's a huge **** of a spell, and a waste of power dice almost all of the time?

What about Fire Wall? If it only stopped the enemy from moving for 1 movement phase, that seems like a 12+ spell to me. I certainly wouldn't go higher on it. That would be stupid.

The current RiP spells already have high casting costs. Sure there are a couple low ones, like Titillating Delusions, Pandaemonium or Curse of the Years, but they're far more the exception than the rule.

Condottiere
15-11-2009, 18:46
Consider this, if you have to concentrate on one RiP spell, and you want to cast another spell, bypassing the rule that once your wizard has a RiP spell in play you have to give it up in order to cast another one (assuming you have the required PD), then it's only fair that in order to cast the next one and maintain the RiP spell, the next spell should require a higher casting value.

Enrico
15-11-2009, 19:18
No. Why should it be that way?

There are dozens of spells that have persistent effects without any increase in difficulty.

Briohmar
15-11-2009, 19:43
The Comet used to not be a RiP spell, and it was devastating. Flaming sword still requires 2 dice to have a (relatively) sure dispell, Titilating Delusions (a personal favorite) is very powerful, but it has its drawbacks, Pandemonium is nasty, etc. OK, the issue here is, if you cast the spell, with the 7th ed rules, the caster who wants to keep it in play can't cast his following turn, and you effectively lose the use of his casting dice. This is the inherrent drawback to casting the spell. It is a good mechanic, as the previous version of the comet was so extremely nasty that it had to be changed.

I was on the receiving end of a comet that had built up for four full turns before detonating, and it destroyed nearly half the board, fortunately, it killed more of the High elves than it did Slaanesh warriors, but still, if it had been RiP at the time, the opponents magic phase would not have been nearly so nasty (15-18 dice HE magic phase.) To cast the spell requires a Mage Lord, to keep it in play requires said lord not cast in the following phase. Its a good trade off. As for delusions, well, I usually only keep it in play til the following turn anyways, since it usually does what I want it to in one turn, except against dwarves. The sword forces you to make a choice, face a magic weapon in CC, or not cast a spell. The only people who are upset at the mechanics of RiP are those who think their mage lord should still be able to cast the next turn AND keep their nastiest spell in play.

Enrico
15-11-2009, 19:47
No, the only people who are upset see spells like Miasma of Pestilence, Phantasmagoria, Fleshy Abundance, or Bless with Filth that last a full turn, or spells like Acquiescence or Wither that provide permanent effects - often with lower casting cost than RiP spells - and think that there's something incredibly unfair and incredibly arbitrary about which spells get RiP and which spells are better and easier to use.

Condottiere
15-11-2009, 20:38
It's not that I don't think those spells don't need retweaking, it's just that the RiP mechanic by itself is balanced.

Einholt
16-11-2009, 07:43
Stop teasing the cat. I can't concentrate with this incessant whining going on ;)

Next you'll be whining about why most bound spells have a power level of 3, meaning opponents have a good chance to dispel it on a single die. Or why swordmasters are only T3 with a 5+ save meaning they never reach combat. Its just a game and a rule, its up to you to make the best of it. If you really need that Flaming Sword of Rhuin, then just make sure, you break the enemy on the first round, so you won't need it on the next :)

Its called balance, it poses tactical challenges, its what makes the game fun ;)

This.

Most of the recent set duration spells should have been RiP it would of made them a lot more tactical for the user and balanced. You you'd actually think about spell order and bluff the enemy into dispells instead of throwing dice and hoping to win by luck.

The Red Scourge
16-11-2009, 07:49
This.

Most of the recent set duration spells should have been RiP it would of made them a lot more tactical for the user and balanced. You you'd actually think about spell order and bluff the enemy into dispells instead of throwing dice and hoping to win by luck.

Einholt has a very good idea - and a brilliant quote ;)

Ixquic
16-11-2009, 14:00
RiP spells are typically useless. Pandemonium is good because it can only be dispelled at the end of the opponents magic phase after its done the job of causing miscasts or stopping casting entirely and removing the ability to use general leaderships for rallies or terror checks. Most RiP spells have fairly low casting costs with a few notable exceptions (Comet, Flames of the Pheonix) so are easily stopped.

I think the rule itself makes sense. A wizard has to channel a powerful spell to keep it going and you can't just throw out a Flames of The Phoenix on unit after unit like 6th edition Teclis. However when it's easiest just to let the spell go off, then dispel it next turn on a much lower required roll they end up not being as effective. The controlling wizard could have the option to add power or dispel dice to add to the base cost of the spell to fight off the dispel attempt could be a possible solution.

Bac5665
16-11-2009, 14:22
This.

Most of the recent set duration spells should have been RiP it would of made them a lot more tactical for the user and balanced. You you'd actually think about spell order and bluff the enemy into dispells instead of throwing dice and hoping to win by luck.

Anyone who thinks that RiP spells are useless are idiots. Sure, you may not always maintain them, (though sometimes you will) but they still do useful things, and, most importantly, force tactical decision making! Not everything should be a no brainer; the game is better the more tactical decisions you have to make. Sure, GW fails at balancing spells lately, but that has nothing to do the the RiP mechanic, just with GW letting Matt Ward (and a couple other people) still have a job.

Zilverug
16-11-2009, 14:59
When not bringing wizards (most armies can do that), there are always 2 power dice available to use to dispel remains in play spells.

Maybe it's just the cheap remains in play spells (less than -say- 8) that are crippled by dispelling through power dice.

On the other hand - the dispelling with power dice mechanic is in most cases not necessary: they still penalize the caster by not allowing any other casting and they should still be dispellable in the caster's next casting phase.

Maybe the remains in play mechanic shouldn't be removed, but the option to dispel them using power dice.

Mercules
16-11-2009, 16:28
Playing Ogres about half my spells are "buffing" spells that can be dispelled in the opponent's turn. What is good about Gut Magic version of RIP? We cast most things for 3+ but they require 7+ to dispel.

This means that while my opponent can use 2 dice to get rid of my spells, I can possibly get 2-3 in play against him. Sure he picks the ones that REALLY matter to his upcoming Shooting and Combat phases but he is still wasting dice that could go into killing Ogres.

Trollguts is a fantastic spell that ruins his chances of casting spells at that unit by offering MR(2). Basically he can cast spells at it and have them be dispelled or ignore it until he can dispel the Trollguts on his turn. At that point I throw the Trollguts right back up on my turn.

Why does RiP work for Ogres? Because we can put out as many or more spells than they can remove during their magic phase unless they heavily out magic us. RiP spells should require a bit more to dispel than their casting cost. Maybe Casting cost +3? That would help make up for not casting with our own wizards on later turns.

narrativium
16-11-2009, 16:44
Power dice are also used to dispel spells cast as a result of the miscast table. I think some players would like to continue defending against those.

Malorian
16-11-2009, 16:47
I would hate to see how powerful curse of years would be if you couldn't dispel it with dispel dice in your own turn...