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kingcr02
15-11-2009, 19:23
Hello, I am new to the game and only actually have a few pieces to a High Elf army as I am trying to figure out what build I would like to start with and so on.
I asked my friend when starting out whats a good number army to build. He told me that 1500 would be decent and most players would be willing to play an army of that size with me.

The first part of my post is what he has told me so far pertaining to High Elves. As far as the core goes he says that the LSG isn't very good and is near unplayable because of my other core. As far as Specials go he says that Silver Helms are flat out unplayable because of Dragon Princes. I have also been told be numerous players that the only real competitive dragon is the star dragon. How much of this would you say is accurate?

On to the question. In my 1500 point army I am really interested in running a dragon. I was thinking about putting a Dragon Mage of Caledor in my 1500 point list. 350 for the model + 35 for level 2 upgrade + 25 Armour of Caledor + 25 Guardian Phoenix. The magic items obviously to make him a hard man to bring down. So I suppose the main question is it he worth it? or is the Sun Dragon just really not worth running? Also I don't have the main rule book at this point so I don't understand the dragons scaly skin save of 5+. Is that his only armor? so if he gets 2 wounds and i roll 2 4s he takes both wounds? or is the scaly skin a bonus on top of something else? If his only armor save is 5+ I could see the dragon being largely unimpressive.

kingcr02
15-11-2009, 19:33
Update: Just been told that the dragons only armour is a 5+ and that i can't give the mage magic armours. This piece can be made nothing but offense and seems to die quite easily. I suppose I shouldn't run him.

Falkman
15-11-2009, 19:36
The general opinion is that a Dragon mage is too fragile to be used in competitive games.
That being said I find him an awesome guy, modelwise and fluffwise, and the rare times I play High elves I usually want to include one just because they're cool.

danny-d-b
15-11-2009, 19:38
yep skaly skin= armour save - so you have a 5+ armour save, which means if your going to take the dragon, make sure you hide him

the problem is with it being a large target its hard to hide.

LSG are pants, trying to do two things at once and being bad at both for the cost, take a unit of spears and a unit of bows over LSG

as for special, silver helms are in no way worth it, everything they can do, dragon princes/revers can do better

however you haven't mentioned (to me as a non HE player) the HE elite infantry (SM/PG/WL). all 3 are great and very very nasty, PG don't die, SM kill everything and WL kill a lot and never run away and with ASF you only need 14 or so at 6-7 wide and get killing

Von Wibble
15-11-2009, 19:39
Sadly armour of caledor isn't allowed- a model may only have magic armour if they can purchase mundane armour. Silver wand is generally your best bet with Guardian Phoenix - that way you have 3 castable spells, each getting the bonus dice.

Armour save improves with dragon type (5+, 4+, 3+) so Sun drago is somewhat vulnerable. Think of it as a griffon that can breathe fire and you aren't far out.

Overall I'm not someone who uses dragon mages as I like to have my full amount of characters and will therefore take a star dragon if I'm going to waste a hero slot. They are also very vulnerable to shooting/magic.

That said, a 1500pt army with this as your character plus 2 cheap units of dragon princes as backup, and then the rest of your points on eagles, core, and maybe a cheap special could work as an army. The irony is that you are more vulnerable to shooting in a game of 1500 pts than of 2500 - additional shooting tends to have difficulty being deployed without blocking los, whilst teh opponent will have a couple more priority targets that need shooting.

Don't believe the comment on LSG - they are fine, just not in an aggressive setup. Silver Helms otoh are not a good choice, not just because of dragon princes but also ellyrian reavers.

On dragons in general I personally don't like the sun dragon on a prince because I'd rather have a griffon and an extra character. I don't like the moon dragon because the star dragon is only a 70pts upgrade on that.

kingcr02
15-11-2009, 20:04
After I pieced my RBT together, I asked my friend what else is somewhat of a staple in High Elves. He told me Swordmasters..Before I bought them I did some research. I think I might like the Lions better and I'm not sure if my 3 special infantry are all on par or if 1 is just better than the other. On a rank of Offensive to Defensive I assume the order is: Sword Masters, Lions, Phoenix Guard. I love all 3 but my main worry with Sword masters is having them not get slaughtered before they reach the units they would otherwise slaughter.

AtmaTheWanderer
15-11-2009, 20:29
I asked my friend when starting out whats a good number army to build. He told me that 1500 would be decent and most players would be willing to play an army of that size with me.

1500 is a good amount. By fully painting your force as well, you can definitely increase the number of people willing to play even small points games also, most people love playing against painted forces in a world where black primed figures are a staple.


The first part of my post is what he has told me so far pertaining to High Elves. As far as the core goes he says that the LSG isn't very good and is near unplayable because of my other core.

LSG are fine, they're just point-intensive compared to spearmen or archers.


As far as Specials go he says that Silver Helms are flat out unplayable because of Dragon Princes.

Well, I'll disagree with this. Silver Helms are not unplayable, they are just in all ways an inferior choice. They're still playable and not really too bad, it's just dragon princes are so much better for such a negligable points increase.


I have also been told be numerous players that the only real competitive dragon is the star dragon. How much of this would you say is accurate?

Normal dragons are fine, it's just dragon mages that are... not really that good.

Problem is you have a dragon, which you want to get into close combat, ridden by a Mage, that you very much DO NOT want in close combat. The model, by definition, contradicts itself, because as soon as you charge into close combat if you don't wipe out every model that can swing back, everyone will just direct attacks to the mage and probably drop him the first round of combat.


On to the question. In my 1500 point army I am really interested in running a dragon. I was thinking about putting a Dragon Mage of Caledor in my 1500 point list. 350 for the model + 35 for level 2 upgrade + 25 Armour of Caledor + 25 Guardian Phoenix. The magic items obviously to make him a hard man to bring down. So I suppose the main question is it he worth it? or is the Sun Dragon just really not worth running?

As others have pointed out, this is an illegal build.


Also I don't have the main rule book at this point so I don't understand the dragons scaly skin save of 5+. Is that his only armor? so if he gets 2 wounds and i roll 2 4s he takes both wounds?

This is correct, assuming that the attack is not of sufficient strength to negate the armor. In fantasy, high strength reduces armor. For example, if your dragon is hit by a strength 4 attack, it only gets a 6+ save, while a strength 5 removes it completely.


or is the scaly skin a bonus on top of something else? If his only armor save is 5+ I could see the dragon being largely unimpressive.

While scaly skin does stack with armor, dragons usually don't have any. A sun dragon is, for all intents and purposes, a "wuss dragon". It is intended for those people who really like dragons, and the dragon model, to be able to field one in sub-lord games. It is *NOT* intended, nor does it function, in the same manner as a lord-level star dragon, which is a close combat monster. You generally will not see a dragon mage in a "competitive (read: tournament)" list.


After I pieced my RBT together, I asked my friend what else is somewhat of a staple in High Elves. He told me Swordmasters..Before I bought them I did some research. I think I might like the Lions better and I'm not sure if my 3 special infantry are all on par or if 1 is just better than the other. On a rank of Offensive to Defensive I assume the order is: Sword Masters, Lions, Phoenix Guard. I love all 3 but my main worry with Sword masters is having them not get slaughtered before they reach the units they would otherwise slaughter.

Swordmasters are run in MSU (Multiple-Small-Units), to ensure that as many full strength units reach the target as possible. High Elf swordmasters are generally a threat until their numbers are reduced to < 4, IMHO.

Ultimately, they are the pinnacle expression of High Elves as a glass cannon. They will dice up opponents, however swordmasters are generally best employed as flank chargers or in conjunction with another unit. Don't rely on swordmasters to take on a 25 block of infantry by themselves, unless you have really good dice luck.

All 3 of your special choices serve a purpose. Swordmasters are your general-purpose exceptional infanty troop with greatweapons, White Lions are your means to bring Str 6 maneuverable troops on the board, and you anticipate needing shooting defense (example: Dark Elves). Phoenix Guard.... Well, they don't die, but don't expect them to kill a ton of models either.

kingcr02
15-11-2009, 20:33
You guys are definitely helpful..As far as these questions go did I put them in the right forum? And I Will definitely have more questions soon.

John Vaughan
16-11-2009, 00:24
I think they are situational. I like to run them in 500pt games. They are nigh unstopable, as they have the casting potential of Lord level wizards because of the reckless rule. Also, armies like empire, skaven, and pretty much anyone with T3 die in droves from wall of fire. I tend to take the Silver wand and two power stones. That way, hes getting spells off all the time, and one of them is Wall. It just works for me.

As far as armies like WOC or Ogres, I wouldn't. They are too resilient to the S4 attacks, and the dragon wouldn't amount to much of anything against them in combat.

GenerationTerrorist
16-11-2009, 02:46
Dragon Mage is quirky in Caledor-themed lists, but other than that I kind of felt he was useless.

Guardian of the Rage
16-11-2009, 09:16
I'm going to go left field and suggest that they are actually quite good, but with one major clarification: Only in Small games, say 1500 or less. This is because he can put out phenomenal power-dice on his own, and in smaller games the enemy is less likely to have the options to deal with it without a tough fight. Basically, the larger the game, the more likely it is that the enemy will have the ability to slay it before it has a chance to affect the game; thus its placing in the list as a (well 2 actually) hero choice is a major advantage.

That being said, the Guardian Phoenix is a must for me; it isn't much of a save but it is better than nothing. Also, i like to give him the silver wand (3rd spell at L2) and thus he is able to cast two 2 dice spells and one 3 dice spell; this is pretty powerful magic by any stretch of the imagination at this points level. The flaming sword spell is vital so i suggest that you draw out your opponent's obligatory scroll at this points level before entering combat.

On the subject of combat, the Dragon Mage will dish out 3 S6 attacks hitting on 2s (with the flaming sword) and the Dragon will dish out 4 S5 WS 5 attacks. While this is nothing to be sniffed at, it relies on the mage getting the flaming sword and even then there are units capable of surviving its attentions (+1 saves and ward save merchants etc) thus the combats must still be selected carefully. The real asset of the Dragon mage is the fear factor (no i don't mean terror, though that is worth it too) as most opponents that i have faced show exasperation at the fielding of dragon at less than 2k. This will mean that will you have the opportunity to attract vast amounts of attention while other things go unmolested.

Finally, the dragon mage is most vulnerable to shooting, this is what people are hinting at when they say that he is 'situational'. From bitter experience i can tell you that DE repeater crossbows will give you a bad day (even if they all hit the dragon!), which is why some will suggest that you take the sacred incense with you instead; though i'm not to sure about this!

I hope that some of this is food for thought,
Kind regards,
GotR

kingcr02
17-11-2009, 20:07
If any of you guys who have previously posted catch this message...could you perhaps critique my 1500 point list in the army list section? it doesn't seem to be catching many viewers. thanks

PeG
17-11-2009, 20:22
I like the dragon mage in small games although many opponents doesnt. Not that many armies can deal with a dragon in a 1k or 1500 point game. He is good at casting spells and if he can get the flaming sword of he is also good in combat. I have found that the key to get the flaming sword is to bring another caster to help draw dispel dice. A normal mage also helps with your magic defence since dragon mages doesnt get +1 to dispel.

GenerationTerrorist
18-11-2009, 00:32
Ooops! Wrong thread!!!!