PDA

View Full Version : Making a nice deamons army...possible?



_Ashdil_
15-11-2009, 20:31
Well is it?

I have followed the talk on the forums and I have glanced in the book, all the units seems to be to good for thier points. I do however like the models and I have tiny collection deamons, from the Hordes of chaos times in 6ed.

If I ever start a Deamon army, pobably way before they get a new book to sort them out into a good but not overly good army, I want to make nice list. I dont want to be a powergamer, never liked to be one. So what ways are there to make a good list, that is not over the top?

I am thinking of a combo of Slaanesh and Khorne. The units themselves are very good, but how to make them less so. Have them in bigger units? And by that have fewer more expensive units. Staying away from greater Deamons and go with deamon princes instead?
As I dont have the book, and dont know thier magic items or what they do, keep them out, I know a good item when I see one if I start with them anyway. ;)

I would even considder adding a 15-25% point increase for friendly games. I would take Deamonettes and Blodletters even if they cost 15-16p, they would still be insanely good!

Deetwo
15-11-2009, 21:11
Splurge on a Daemon Prince and you'll be off to a good start.
CD Princes are just about the most horrible character choice in the game.

Oh and Daemonettes and Bloodletters are really not "insanely good".. They are decent in combat but pretty squishy.
Just remember to stay away from flesh hounds and flamers. Without them the book is a lot nicer.

Dai-Mongar
15-11-2009, 21:13
Mono-god Khorne or Slaanesh seems to be the least offensive. I'm not sure you'd neccesarily need to stay away from Greater Daemons either, I know I'm going to be taking a Bloodthirster for my new Khorne Daemons army (although that may be because I already have one).
Daemons don't have magic items per se, they have Daemonic Gifts. Which are very similar, but can be taken multiple times in an army, so if you're trying to tone things down you might want to avoid spamming some of the more busted gifts.

InsideReticle
15-11-2009, 21:38
If you want to make a nice daemons list, listen to people who don't play daemons.

Bodysnatcher
15-11-2009, 22:55
Play Mono-God with no special characters.

Commodus Leitdorf
15-11-2009, 23:11
Or just play the army however you want to play it, with whatever units you want Have fun and dont be a douche. Honestly, demons have their faults (some of them REALLY dumb) but facing off against an opponent with enough experience and knowledge of demons, the fight will be tough and fun.

The key to being "nice" with any army in this game is more about attitude then an army list.

StefDa
15-11-2009, 23:53
I actually stopped playing Daemons because all of the units I played the army for are too powerful. I don't want to modify the rules to be able to use my little dolls. Besides, I actually find them boring. I'm starting another army now, Tomb Kings.

_Ashdil_
15-11-2009, 23:57
Thanks for the advice!

What I have now is 12 Deamonettes, and 6 seekers (old mounted deamonettes) They are not the bigger cav Slaanesh got in Storm of chaos I hope!?
Also Belakor, he is to be a Slaanesh DP, half painted, only been like that for oh...3-4 years :p

The plastics would make the army a little cheaper, so Khorne and Slaanesh. Would be fun to go mono, but I want to be able to have different units. Thats whats looks boring with Daemons, the lack of choice in units. They should have either 3 more undivided Daemon types (perhaps with mark upgrades) Or one more of each god, in different areas.

I might go with this army instead of making my Skaven 2k. But I think Skaven is the most fun for now, then I will see what I can do with Daemons.

Dead Man Walking
16-11-2009, 00:12
Im not a powergamer but I dont understand the ideal of putting things in my army that are useless just because I dont want someone to think I am a powergamer. "Oh I know my army won't win but at least you won't think I'm a douche." I'd think you were one for having this mentality.

Play power game or play fluff I don't care just play, but don't play a certain way to increase the odds that someone won't think badly of you, chances are they will invent some other reason for not liking your army like the fact that you won and they didnt or your not fluffy enough for thier likings.

The reason people dont like Daemons is not because of special characters or multiple gods. When it comes right down to it they dont like daemons because they are broken in the sense that they fight extremely well, are fast moving, are an entirely unbreakable army (thus broken), excel at the magic or dispel phase, cause fear and terror across the whole army and have access to items that disrupt other armies leadership (neccessary against fear and terror) or magic phase. In short they are a complete package.

Don't fool yourself about being liked for playing a 'nice' daemon army, theres no such thing.

Deetwo
16-11-2009, 06:14
are an entirely unbreakable army (thus broken)

Right.. :D Daemons are FAR from unbreakable.
Very little armor saves anywhere, low toughness for the most part and when combat resolution starts stacking, instability does quite horrible things.
The superior durability part is VCs thing and daemons are behind in that by a longshot.

I don't claim the book isn't the most poweful in the game, but even then people seem to overexaggerate their capabilities.

Einholt
16-11-2009, 07:30
Exaggerate yes, but as an Ex-DoC player I know the parts of my army which I needed to be unbreakable for all intents and purposes always did their job. Always not being an exaggeration. Low T, High WS and ward. Not soft not even the BL's and the Nettes. Those two only suck in comparison to PBs with herald and Horrors.

They aren't as durable as VC with raising I agree but they are also more effective in offense which basically makes up for their "weakness".

Jind_Singh
16-11-2009, 09:28
Yes and no - theres def 'nice deamon' lists out there that make the DoC general have to really work hard to make it happen. My current fav is

Prince of Khorne - Winged horror, immortal fury, armour of khorne
herald of khorne - BSB, D3 combat res bannor, armour of khorne, soul hunger
16 Bloodletters, FC, icon of endless war
HoK, Jugger, armour, firestorm blade
16 bloodletters, FC, skull totem
HoK, jugger, armour, soul hunger
12 Bloodletters, FC, Skull totem
6 furies
5 Fleshounds
3 Bloodcrushers

Lovely themed army, has all the Khorne units apart from Lord Thirster, big bulky core units, nice mix of items, I can hit hard with the combat units but theres a degree of fragility to this army that can see it get smoked.
I have yet to hear any complaints against this list, it forces me to work hard to pull of wins, and looks nice on the battlefield.
If i really need to pull someones horns then the list could change to all bloodletters being 11 strong, FC, Endless war, all heralds are Juggers, FS blade, armour, BSB has std of sundering, 2 fleshounds, 2 furies, bloodthirster - now theres a packing list which is suddenly much harder to deal with!
But theres no joy in that 2nd list so I like my current incarnation
Theres also cool slaaneshi themes out there too - just means putting a limit on some of the combos you can take with them
All in all a balanced DoC list is actually not much harder than other armies out there, they will still have many edges but are by no means unbeatable.
Just experiement - you'll find that slaanesh favours units of at least 20's in my eyes to make them viable, fiends, seekrs are awesome, but be careful of the icons, both are solid! And the slaanesh upgrades are also solid! and masque - boo! use her as a herald model

_Ashdil_
16-11-2009, 10:13
You can allways stay away from powergaming and still winn battles. I have many armies (far to many!) And I dont have popemobile 2 Stanks with my Empire just becouse I can, thats not how I want to play the game. I mostley play firendly battles, we invent our own scenarios and situations for our games. So I dont need to winn, even if we both play to winn (yes we are only two guys left now)

I dont want to powergame with Daemons becouse I dont want to smash my opponnent becouse the list can't fail, I like to think, to use perhaps on paper an inferior unit and try to make it a winner. Now I dont think Daemons have any bad units, so all I have to do is stay away from thoose that are to good!

I might go all undivided, so that I have more units to choose from. Perhaps with a Heroe from each god.

And special characters are for very special games. Not somthing I like to use in each battle, I find it alot more fun to make my own character. Makeing a story for the army is as fun as painting and playing with it for me.

Deetwo
16-11-2009, 10:36
Now I dont think Daemons have any bad units, so all I have to do is stay away from thoose that are to good!

I heard daemon princes and beasts of nurgle disagree! :)

I don't think there's all that many "too good" (hounds and flamers mainly) units actually, just that the vast majority are quite solid.

Edit
16-11-2009, 20:41
Play Mono-God with no special characters.

that's all there is to it imo, I think any mono god list is perfectly fine, even tzeentch.

PeG
16-11-2009, 20:50
From what I have seen so far the release of skaven will make life a bit easier for daemon players. We have a lot of skaven players in my area and they seem to be beating most other armies for the moment including daemons and DE. Most elite armies have problems with the combination of good magic, war machines and mounts that deals out a lot of template attacks being able to remove models without saves. Of the top three VC are probably the ones with the best results at this time. The ability to raise new units really helps.

Using the bell, furnaces can make several skaven units unbreakable and several others can be frenzied which helps against fear/terror.

fubukii
17-11-2009, 00:29
my friendly daemon list for PUG

Daemon prince of nurgle - lvl 2 trappings, immortal fury
HOT - spellbreaker, Master of sorc
HOT - Power vortex
HOK - AOK, Jugger, Bsb, +d3 cr
2 x 10 horrors
12 daemonettes
2 x 5 furies
2 x 5 hounds
5 screamers
6 flamers
2 fiends

silashand
17-11-2009, 06:44
Play what you like first. You have to enjoy playing the army too. Couple thoughts on any daemon build to make it somewhat friendlier:

- don't double up on gifts, i.e. treat them like magic items in that respect. Some of the most abusive builds rely on multiples of the best combos.

- whatever power you choose for your force (or multiples), make sure to at least bring the basic troops of that power (bloodletters, 'nettes, etc.). This helps make sure the list is at least somewhat fluff-based

- try to avoid the special characters since they introduce some of the worst combos available. If you just like one specific one, maybe consider them being the only character in the list unless there's a fluff reason otherwise.

- mono-god is preferable simply because it prevents min-maxing somewhat. Failing that, consider the old rivalries and try not to mix powers that the background says would not normally work together (all of it, not just the latest "take everything" drivel from GW)

- minimize characters if possible. At the very least when playing with them, do not place characters in units not of the same chaos power. I never understood why GW thought allowing a herald of khorne to join a unit of plaguebearers was fluffy in the least.

Anyway, as I said play whatever you like. I do think a few of the above will go a long way to making sure your opponents have a fun time playing against your list though. JMO anyway...

For myself, I'm just now building up my daemons to a playable size since I only ever had them as part of my mortal chaos force before. I really like the juggernaut models so I will probably have a decent sized unit of those along with some bloodletters. If I do multi-god I'll probably add in some horrors and screamers since as I recall Khorne and Slaanesh don't get along and my daemonettes would not seem appropriate. Might do mono-Slaanesh though since I have lots of the metal daemonettes and I much prefer them to the current plastics. We shall see I guess.

ChaosVC
17-11-2009, 08:18
Just paint them all with a big yellow smiley face. :)

Stumpy
17-11-2009, 08:44
Everything in the daemon book would be a must-have in any other army, except the daemon prince. So taking one of them is a good start.
Take a unit (not horrors!) without a herald.
Try to avoid anything that stuffs with your opponents leadership.
If you take flamers, don't take more than one unit. One unit of flamers is sort of beatable if you have the right unit nearby that does what its told and the wind is blowing just right.
Flesh hounds are ok if you don't have too many of them and you stress to your opponent that they hit like chaos knights.
Don't use the special characters, they're stupid.
Greater daemons are actually alright if they don't have their ideal kit.

Einholt
17-11-2009, 10:20
See there are ways to play DoC "friendly" but it's just stupid. It would be like running an empire army with combat characters and specifically not buying full plate.

Using Halberdiers and Militia as core, using greatsword/mortar specials and 1 unit of flaggelants/a hellblaster as your rares. Or Just using a lot of point on milita and avoiding the rares.

No one should have to play their army like that. The DoC players who care about being friendly and balance are hurt more by their own book then the rest of you.

It's so soulless to not just avoiding picking optimal but hell even avoid theme and just take the WORST things. Like what is the point of playing the army at that point, it's not right.

I say if you can find people to play you just play the army as it's meant to be and just avoid declaring you are winning due to superior generalship against weaker armies. And if you can't find people to play then just let it go and wait for them to redo the book and hopefully get it right next time.

Honestly if you are trying to be fair and enjoy deamons you just can't win with this book. And by win I mean in the overall sense not in a game of warhammer.

Scallat
17-11-2009, 11:34
The easiest way to play "nice" daemons (although it owns the fluff) is to put the wrong heralds in the wrong units. Herald of nurgle in bloodletters, herald of tzeentch in daemonettes. Without the locus bonuses most of the daemons units are merely good as oppossed to being the catagorical best at what they do by a million miles.

fubukii
17-11-2009, 11:51
The easiest way to play "nice" daemons (although it owns the fluff) is to put the wrong heralds in the wrong units. Herald of nurgle in bloodletters, herald of tzeentch in daemonettes. Without the locus bonuses most of the daemons units are merely good as oppossed to being the catagorical best at what they do by a million miles.


except thats against the rules, a herald of a god can only join a unit of similar mark.

Azethel
17-11-2009, 12:11
Ashdil, there is nothing wrong with a Slaanesh/Khorne daemon army (except for the old lore where Slaanesh and Khorne didn't get along). Unfortunately, for friendly games there are one or two concessions you do have to make.

A daemon prince for your general is a non-optimal choice and a good start. No more than two units of Flesh hounds. Larger blocks of Bloodletters and Daemonettes with standards avoiding the MSU approach. Not sticking your heralds in bloodletter units is another concession. Also, avoid special characters (my gaming group refuses to use them) Skulltaker and the masque are stupidly undercosted and meltface.

_Ashdil_
18-11-2009, 00:12
See there are ways to play DoC "friendly" but it's just stupid. It would be like running an empire army with combat characters and specifically not buying full plate.

Using Halberdiers and Militia as core, using greatsword/mortar specials and 1 unit of flaggelants/a hellblaster as your rares. Or Just using a lot of point on milita and avoiding the rares.

No one should have to play their army like that. The DoC players who care about being friendly and balance are hurt more by their own book then the rest of you.

It's so soulless to not just avoiding picking optimal but hell even avoid theme and just take the WORST things. Like what is the point of playing the army at that point, it's not right.

I say if you can find people to play you just play the army as it's meant to be and just avoid declaring you are winning due to superior generalship against weaker armies. And if you can't find people to play then just let it go and wait for them to redo the book and hopefully get it right next time.

Honestly if you are trying to be fair and enjoy deamons you just can't win with this book. And by win I mean in the overall sense not in a game of warhammer.

If I avoid 1 or 2 units, or atleast do not spam thoose two units, how is that soulless. And I do bring Halberds with my Empire, I like that extra S, if you dont, fine by me. But to state that each army is made so that everyone should make the worst list ever, thats just stupid! Each army will allways have thier combos that takes them over the top vs a "normal" army. In a tournament setting, that might be a good thing (unless it's a good tournament with comp rules) So that you even might enjoy the games you play.

A soulless army is an army that does not even consider the fluff, if you play only to get the most mathhammer out of your army, go and do some math, put it all down on a paper and calculate who should winn and then dont bother playing.

And I never said that I would not make armies that can winn, or that I would only choose the worst units in an army (DoC or anyone else) I want to have a good army that I can enjoy playing with, and enjoy painting, modelling and so on. If all I ever wanted was to winn at all cost, I would not play a game where dice makes out the result. I would play something else, like Dead or alive where I kick anyone ass! ;)


I want to go with Slaanesh Khorne becouse:

Nice plastics, so cheapest core
I like thoose models the most, but I like them all so I think first 1000p will be Slaanesh Khorne, second 1000p might go the other two. The downside with a mono god is the lack of units, only 4 for each god with Furies, I want some more choices

I already have 12 Deamonettes and 6 Seekers plus a Daemon prince, so Slaanesh is in however I twist and turn it.

Magic Defence plus magic offense is a good way to fight any other army.

I have the two latest Hordes of chaos books (6ed and 5ed) So I can read up on daemons loyalty there. I like going by the fluff, but I dont follow it to the point at all times, if I break any "fluffrules" I make my own to cover it up. :)