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Wraithbored
25-01-2006, 10:48
I was wondering in Spac Marine chapters who would you classify as higher in rank(baring chapters that don't have them of course): the Librarianm, Chaplain, Techmarine. If say the SM commander gets killed on the field who takes command?

Sikkukkut
25-01-2006, 13:39
The three types of Marine you've discussed actually tend to be outside the command hierarchy altogether. Of course there would be Chapters in which they could hold ranks and even have full and permanent command, but under usual circumstances the replacement would be the commander of the First Company or someone similar from the Chapter's main body.

If we're talking a needs-must situation on the battlefield where a Chaplain and/or Librarian are clearly far more suited to command than anyone else (say that all the others are battle-brothers recently promoted from Scouthood or something) then I suppose I'd expect to see the Chaplain first, Librarian second. But in that circumstance a lot would depend on the personalities involved, and what exact situation they were in.

(I like your avatar, btw. Invasion of the Body Snatchers, is it?)

Inquisitor Samos
25-01-2006, 13:46
The Techmarine has never really been classed as a "line leadership" or command role within the Adeptus Astartes, I believe, although certainly a Techmarine could lead a group of SMs if necessary.

Information in both Codex: Space Marines and the Epic game system indicate that both the Chaplain and the Librarian are considered "line leadership" roles, and therefore can and do lead forces of Space Marines at times. Indeed, in Epic it is clearly stated that the "Space Marine Commander" could be a Captain, Librarian, or Chaplain.

As to whether the Librarian or the Chaplain is considered senior, I think this will depend on the experience of the individuals in question, and might also depend on the specific Chapter's traditions. The more experienced warrior would be senior in most cases, I'd think, barring a Chapter-specific tradition holding one or the other as being senior in given situations or in general.

shadowdragoon
25-01-2006, 15:17
captians hold rank then if anything happens to him Chaplains and the Librarians are next, then the next person i rank i guess. Plus battle companies outrank reserve companies.

Wraithbored
25-01-2006, 15:23
The three types of Marine you've discussed actually tend to be outside the command hierarchy altogether. Of course there would be Chapters in which they could hold ranks and even have full and permanent command, but under usual circumstances the replacement would be the commander of the First Company or someone similar from the Chapter's main body.

If we're talking a needs-must situation on the battlefield where a Chaplain and/or Librarian are clearly far more suited to command than anyone else (say that all the others are battle-brothers recently promoted from Scouthood or something) then I suppose I'd expect to see the Chaplain first, Librarian second. But in that circumstance a lot would depend on the personalities involved, and what exact situation they were in.

(I like your avatar, btw. Invasion of the Body Snatchers, is it?)Yes it is from body snatchers but i don't use it because i like the movie or anything.

As for the chaplain outranking the Librarian I would agree because the driving force behind it all is faith in the emperor right?

Sai-Lauren
25-01-2006, 15:48
As for the chaplain outranking the Librarian I would agree because the driving force behind it all is faith in the emperor right?
Not necessarily, a chapter like the Relictors (before they became excommunicated) would probably have deferred to their Librarians over their chaplains, or a chapter like the Iron Hands may defer to their Techmarines over everyone else.

Although, as marines are highly trained, highly disciplined and virtually fanatical, command may be a bit of a misnomer anyway - each squad probably has it's task detailed to it before the battle begins (ranging from go rip the enemy commanders arms off and beat him to death with the damp ends to supply covering fire from the best vantage point you can find), the sergeant is allowed free-reign to carry out that task as they see fit, and the commanding officers are freed up to be leaders of men - maybe changing a squads assignment in the middle of battle to deal with a specific threat - not studying deployments and charts and ordering their men around like guard officers do - basically strategy get deferred down to the troopers implementing it, not officers who may misinterpret their orders under fire, and because of their training, they won't do anything too unexpected that might leave their brothers hanging in the breeze.

If the captain goes down, maybe the chaplain would step up, exhorting his brothers to avenge his death, or maybe an officer on their strike cruiser would take overall command, possibly even a sergeant with a better view of the battlefield takes command - whatever achieves victory.

Flame Boy
25-01-2006, 17:40
I would also sat it depends on the rank of the officer to fill the commander's shoes. If the company captain is otherwise occupied or Dead/MIA, then I would assume the company chaplain would take command, however, if an Epistolary or Chief librarian is on the scene, they might be higher in the hierarchy than a low-ranking chaplain.

My interpretation wouls be that it's likely that most of the company officers will be leading their own personal forces anyway, so they would all be in charge of elements, it would be the highest-rank in the task force that gets priority, as they generally have the most combat experience anyway.

Wraithbored
25-01-2006, 18:39
Like i said barring "odd" chapters.

Khaine's Messenger
25-01-2006, 20:40
the Librarianm, Chaplain, Techmarine.

Generally, Chaplain > Librarian > Techmarine; however, I would assume that this "hierarchy" repeats itself at various levels (Master Chaplain > Master Librarian) rather than being a workable rule that does not take into account seniority. While Librarians and Chaplains may both be "command" ranks, ceding command to a Librarium official is...a tenuous proposition unless the commander has already named the Librarian his second (like in Soul Drinkers, iirc). The Master Librarian of the Blood Ravens, for example, only became Chapter Master once the entire command staff of the chapter was annihilated in a series of freak accidents.

Also, since it seems that as per the UM org chart Chaplains are the ones who spend a great deal of time actually assigned to the Battle Companies, the Chaplains would probably be considered first as a matter of field seniority while a Librarian would have to be officially assigned seniority. And the most senior veteran sergeant would be considered before a techie, imho, unless he's the only initiate there.

Escaflowne_Z
25-01-2006, 22:28
Odd chapters aside, I think a chaplain would be more likely to take command than a librarian of similar rank and tenure. I say this because Librarians are still psykers, one step away from the warp at all times and not to be trusted. Those SM not afraid of their psychic brothers would still have to be wary of them. Just the way the Imperium works, right?

Discuss.

Gorbad Ironclaw
26-01-2006, 06:05
Just the way the Imperium works, right?

Discuss.


Space Marines doesn't really do anything the same way the rest of the Imperium does though, so I don't think it would really matter.

I very much doubt that they have any problem with there psychic battle brothers. They might be considered a little odd, but I don't think they mistrust them. They have proven themselves worthy, and have been extencivly screened after all.

I think it would depend on the mission at hand, the chapter in question and the specific individuals. A new chaplain would let a senior libarian command etc.

devolutionary
26-01-2006, 06:31
I thought this was obvious? the Company command is Captain, Chaplain, Apothecarian, and Veteran Sergeants, as per the 2nd ed Codex Ultramarines. The Librarium is an off-shoot of the chapter, much like the Techmarines are. So it stands to reason then that if the Chaplains are a part of a Company's command structure, then the Chaplain would generally take command before a Librarian would. The Apothecary is a seperate affair, since it is a command squad attachment, unlike the Librarian and Chaplains who are independant command figures.

Seniority, however, is another matter. Keep in mind that most Caplains aren't precisely fresh meat, no Space Marine is.

Iuris
26-01-2006, 07:25
I don't think any of these take orders from any other of these. Each is a specialist under the command of the regular hierarchy of sergeants, captains and chapter masters. They do, however, have internal hierarchies.

However, their specializations make them incredibly important advisors to the commanders, and a commander might delegate command to one of these specialists if the need were to arise.

Wintermute
26-01-2006, 18:34
I don't think any of these take orders from any other of these. Each is a specialist under the command of the regular hierarchy of sergeants, captains and chapter masters.


Its not that simple.

In Codex Chapters, Librarians are not part of the company structure, but part of the Headquarters staff. The Senior Librarian of a chapter answers only to the Chapter Master, and the other Librarians answer to the Senior Librarian.

Chaplains too are part of the Headquarters staff and follow a similar command structure.

However, chaplains posted to companies are there to advise and bolster the faith of all marines in the company from the rank and file Battle Brother to the Company Commander.

And the original question?

Techmarines are not part of the headquarters staff and would not take command. If there was a Librarian and a Chaplain, it would depend upon which one of them is the most senior in regards of rank and length of service to the chapter.

scwolf
28-01-2006, 04:24
Aren't the SM vehicle crew actually Techmarines themselves? I wouldn't be so quick to write Techmarines out of the command hierarchy.

devolutionary
28-01-2006, 05:07
No, SM vehicle crews are drawn from the Company's the vehicles are assigned to. Landspeeders and Bikes are looked after by Assault Marines, Vindicators, Preds, and Whirlwinds by Devastators (most likely, but not 100% confirmed), and Rhinos & Razorbacks by anyone in general. Some commanders may be Tech staff, but the crew have always been from the main ranks.

gLOBS
28-01-2006, 06:11
Heh think of all the space marines answers GW would solve if they printed the Codex Astartes like they did the guard librum.