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WarhammerNoob4ever
16-11-2009, 22:23
So i have a serious question to ask, how cheesey are demons?

I have decided i want to play a demon army.... i love the fluff, the sculpts for most the khorne and tzeentch models and the fact that it is both a fantasy and 40k army, so i can spend extra time on conversions and painting and get to play both games with only a few extra models for each army.

Now i want to play a tzeentch army, with khorne units im gonna convert in looking as if they are changing into tzeentch models. I am gonna pick my units based on two things: fluff and model. Game play is not all that important, though i do like playing and winning, but from my understanding i dont really need to try that hard to make a competitive demon list. As such, here is the list i was thinking, please tell me if its gonna be overpowered or will my opponents gonna have a chance/fun playing me:

Fantasy: (2000 pts)

Kairos
Skulltaker on a jugg
Blue Scribes

1-2 units of Bloodletters
1-2 units of Pink Horrors
1 unit of Flesh Hounds
1 unit of Bloodcrushers
1 unit of Flamers
1 unit of Screamers

40k: (1700 pts)

Kairos
Skulltaker on jugg/chariot of khorne
Blue Scribes

1-2 units of Bloodletters
1-2 units of Pink Horrors
1 unit of Flesh Hounds
1 unit of Bloodcrushers
2 units of Flamers
Soulgrinder
Demon Prince

These are just rough lists, i havent gotten down to the nitty gritty of actually writing it yet. So what do ppl think? Is it too tough or will people actually want to play me again?

Nicha11
16-11-2009, 23:37
I don't seem much of a problem with your 40k list.
Your fantasy list on the other hand..... it might not be the hardest daemon list out there, but it's pretty damn close.

CrownAxe
16-11-2009, 23:43
in your 40k list do 2 DPs or 2 Grinder, don't mix them

mistrmoon
17-11-2009, 00:09
Power to you for playing them cus you like them and they are fluffy but that is a *********** angry fantasy list.

WarhammerNoob4ever
17-11-2009, 00:33
i've never played against or with demons before, can u explain what makes my fantasy list so hard, or as mistrmoon put it "*********** angry fantasy list. "

mistrmoon
17-11-2009, 00:45
Kairos = the definition of unfriendly. He is extremely over powered. Skull taker on juggernaught is pretty ridiculous as well and by that i mean he should be about twice as many points. I don't have a problem with blue scribes but some people really hate him. I don't know how big your core units are so it really banks on that to. Flesh hounds are one of the best units in the game and flamers are arguably THE best unit in the game.

Your list isn't broken (by deamon standards) but I would expect you to likely crush almsot every all comers list you come across with that list, throw in the stubborn banner and swap something for a second unit of flamers and you have something that will win regular tournaments on a regular basis and will hold its own in an ardboyz environment.

MrDwhitey
17-11-2009, 11:59
I don't have a problem with blue scribes but some people really hate him

The synergy between Kairos and the Blue Scribes is nuts. It makes Kairos so much better, when he already is "mad".

Skogla
17-11-2009, 14:05
the cheese in this thread is overwhelming..
kairos is waaay unfriendly imo

Lijacote
17-11-2009, 14:24
Daemon special characters are widely regarded as "way off the mark". You'll want to avoid using them if you want "friendly" lists. This applies to fantasy in general but lately I think special characters have been less "broken" and more "interesting".

Considering the Crone Hellebron myself, since she makes Witch Elves core. Me wants Temple of Khaine @_@ ^_________________________^ etc

oCoYoRoAoKo
17-11-2009, 14:49
So i have a serious question to ask, how cheesey are demons?

Fantasy: (2000 pts)

Kairos
Skulltaker on a jugg
Blue Scribes

1-2 units of Bloodletters
1-2 units of Pink Horrors
1 unit of Flesh Hounds
1 unit of Bloodcrushers
1 unit of Flamers
1 unit of Screamers



TBH, the only thing really powerful about this list is Fateweaver, and even then, he is far from unbeatable (a couple of canons will do the trick) and grossly expensive. Given a 2000 point list the core units will be quite small, and without heralds, quite weak. One unit of flesh hounds can be compared to any other elite heavy cavalry out there (though with only a 5+ ward to save them) so no probs there. Flamers are WAAY overrated and screamers are a bit meh.

So overall, its not as bad as some people can make it out to be. True the weaver is great but i see it in the league of other super-mages such as slaan, and in combat its lackluster at best so its not like it is unbeatable.

Cy.

shredshredxx
17-11-2009, 15:22
TBH, the only thing really powerful about this list is Fateweaver,

looks to me like somebody's never had a unit evaporated in one round of shooting thanks to some flamers.

they are by no means overrated. in fact, for their points, they're probably the best unit in warhammer. i mean, come on. they outshoot literally everything, with no room for argument. but the fact that after you finally get across the board, they have 2 wounds, s5, and proceed to kick your ass in close combat?

please.

and flesh hounds aren't exactly comparable to other heavy cav seeing as they have a better ward than any heavy cav but brettonians can get as well as double the wounds.

oCoYoRoAoKo
17-11-2009, 16:28
looks to me like somebody's never had a unit evaporated in one round of shooting thanks to some flamers.

they are by no means overrated. in fact, for their points, they're probably the best unit in warhammer. i mean, come on. they outshoot literally everything, with no room for argument. but the fact that after you finally get across the board, they have 2 wounds, s5, and proceed to kick your ass in close combat?

please.

and flesh hounds aren't exactly comparable to other heavy cav seeing as they have a better ward than any heavy cav but brettonians can get as well as double the wounds.

Sounds like someone has just had really bad luck against them :rolleyes: Seriously though, the reason that i say that they are overrated is that unless you take them in huge amounts, they wont amount to much during a game. Everything can be dealt with in reasonable numbers, and when OP said that he was considering taking just one unit of them, that means 6 max. Even with the maximum 6 we are looking at, on average, 21 shots, with 10 or so hits (unless you actually are in short range and haven't moved) and 7 wounds vs a standard T3 opponent before armor saves. Add in more shooting modifiers (which are very likely given that they will almost always be moving and at long range to avoid any incoming charges) and you are actually looking at only 5 or so wounds. Hardly anything to 'evaporate' a unit. Add this to their WS of 2, and you have a unit that while decent in combat, cant break ranks, and will have half of its attacks miss. It is for this reason that most of the 'Higher Tier' daemon lists nowadays are leaving the flamers at home. I am not saying that they are subpar. They are still really good for their points. But they are massively overhyped.

And flesh hounds are comparable to other heavy cav. The reason for this is that they have no armor and most cav roll about in 2+ saves. Also, just like other heavy cav, once you start picking them off their effectiveness reduces drastically.

Cy.

Maoriboy007
17-11-2009, 18:08
Sounds like someone has just had really bad luck against them :rolleyes: Seriously though, the reason that i say that they are overrated is that unless you take them in huge amounts, they wont amount to much during a game. Everything can be dealt with in reasonable numbers, and when OP said that he was considering taking just one unit of them, that means 6 max. Even with the maximum 6 we are looking at, on average, 21 shots, with 10 or so hits (unless you actually are in short range and haven't moved) and 7 wounds vs a standard T3 opponent before armor saves. Add in more shooting modifiers (which are very likely given that they will almost always be moving and at long range to avoid any incoming charges) and you are actually looking at only 5 or so wounds. Hardly anything to 'evaporate' a unit. Add this to their WS of 2, and you have a unit that while decent in combat, cant break ranks, and will have half of its attacks miss. It is for this reason that most of the 'Higher Tier' daemon lists nowadays are leaving the flamers at home. I am not saying that they are subpar. They are still really good for their points. But they are massively overhyped.

And flesh hounds are comparable to other heavy cav. The reason for this is that they have no armor and most cav roll about in 2+ saves. Also, just like other heavy cav, once you start picking them off their effectiveness reduces drastically.

Cy.

Wow, no way are they overhyped, they are every bit as bad as the hype suggests, constant experience has proved it. The reason people are leaving them at home is because they want to have friendly games.
They are a unit that can annoy or devestate for the entire game, and you cant do a hell of lot about them.

PeG
17-11-2009, 18:45
If maxed out very few armies can compete with daemons and of those armies only specific builds are capable of competing. If you want friendly games with daemons you need to make an effort to tune down your list.
I play a slaanesh dominated list (only one Tzeentch herald added for magic defence). I dont use any greater daemon, no special characters and not the icon that lowers enemy LD. The resulting list requires a lot of planned movement, setting up flank/rear charges etc. My win ratio is about 50% with better scores against gunlines, elves etc and worse scores against armies with lots of heavy armour.

Nathangonmad
17-11-2009, 21:28
Flamers are WAAY overrated



What? You high bro?

Wednesday Friday Addams
17-11-2009, 21:32
Kairos is my friend. Everyone should just stop picking on him.

mistrmoon
17-11-2009, 21:46
Kairos is my friend. Everyone should just stop picking on him.

We can't help it, kairos is that dick who shows up to parties uninvited. There is a reason everyone wants him to stay home.

Zilverug
17-11-2009, 21:47
My experience (as Daemon player):

*
Flamers cannot be overrated. It's mainly the shooting that makes them awfully powerful.
*
Flesh Hounds can possibly be overrated, but only by those that exaggerate. They are in many cases better per point than most heavy cavalry, but not *THAT* much better.
*
Khorne Heralds on Juggernauts with 0+ armour save are really dangerous for their point cost.
*
Most special characters are madness. Their point cost is generally far too low.

In other words: Slaanesh and Nurgle will probably allow you to keep more friends than Tzeentch and Khorne. Don't repeat the really powerful and annoying units and/or abilities.

WarhammerNoob4ever
17-11-2009, 22:11
Ok, sorry i should clarify somethings about the list that seem to raise concerns;

a)i completely forgot about the stupid extra power dice thing that the Blue Scribes do; i was picking them completely for the fact that one cant read the other cant cast spells but yet they are supposed to collect all the spells in the universe thing plus the fact that they get one random spell per turn, thats just made of win for me :D id actually be willing to play them without the sypher thing, bc for 81 pts, thats just ridiculous.....

b)Im sorry, but Kairos solo is not that bad..... Yes he knows a lot of spells, but he only gets 4+2 dice at best (without adding extra dice to pool) and is still only a T5 W5 mage that cant join units..... yes he can fly and get a 3+ ward save but he is 625 pts! for that i can get a decked out Slann and a unit of temple guard.... which is arguably better than he is......

c) i was only gonna run a small unit of flamers, like 3-5 at most, i just really like the model but i have to agree, i think they r overhyped..... i was workin out the math and rolled it out a few times today with a friend and equal points of archers can out shoot flamers usually (with longer range) fairly reliably..... but i can see how on a stand and shoot they would evaporate units

but all of this is really giving me something to think about..... though i just love the models and fluff more and more.....

Ymir
17-11-2009, 23:01
Im sorry, but Kairos solo is not that bad..... Yes he knows a lot of spells, but he only gets 4+2 dice at best (without adding extra dice to pool) and is still only a T5 W5 mage that cant join units..... yes he can fly and get a 3+ ward save but he is 625 pts! for that i can get a decked out Slann and a unit of temple guard.... which is arguably better than he is......

He seems downright horribly overpowered to me, and I haven't even played against daemons. Just compare him to Galrauch, who is also a terror-causing, large target flying lvl 4 wizard in the same points range.

okay, so Galrauch's got Toughness 6 and 6 wounds and a 3+ scaly skin save but his ward save is 6+, and while he knows all spells from the Lore of Tzeentch, that's all, he generates 4 power dice with a +1 to cast.

Kairos knows 14 spells, can select the very best spells tailored versus every specific enemy army he faces, he's got a +2 to cast and a reroll, and he's got a 3+ ward save and can never be wounded on better than 3+. So while Galrauch might be much better at actually killing stuff in close combat, Kairos is a much, much better wizard and extremely much more surviveable. Oh, and he doesn't spend at least one round per battle doing nothing but eating himself, like Galrauch does.

He costs 9 points more than Galrauch.

I'm not an expert, but...that does seem broken indeed.

Wednesday Friday Addams
17-11-2009, 23:05
He seems downright horribly overpowered to me, and I haven't even played against daemons. Just compare him to Galrauch, for 616 pts...okay, so Galrauch's got Toughness 6 and 6 wounds and a 3+ scaly skin save but his ward save is 6+, and while he knows all spells from the Lore of Tzeentch, that's all, he generates 4 power dice with a +1 to cast.

Kairos knows 14 spells, can select the very best spells, he's got a +2 to cast and a reroll, and he's got a 3+ ward save and can never be wounded on a better than 3+. So while Galrauch might be much better at actually killing stuff in close combat, Kairos is a much, much better wizard and much, much more surviveable. Oh, and he doesn't spend at least one round per gaming doing nothing but eating himself, like Galrauch does.

He costs 9 points more than Galrauch.

That's the very definition of broken.

You always pay for good combat and magic characters. It isn't fair to compare those special characters.

Aratus
17-11-2009, 23:28
I think there is a fine line between playing to have fun and just playing to win and that fantasy list makes me throw up a little in my mouth looking at it.

I honestly stopped reading after looking at the characters because I don't like using or going up against special characters, god forbid three disgusting ones.

The intentions might be right, and you might just wanna play a friendly game. But if I saw this list I wouldn't even put models on the table. I think you could make a better Daemon list, and by better I mean making it, keeping in mind that the other person would have fun during the game. You can still have a strong Daemon list with a Tzeentch and Khorne theme without the need for the named characters.

Storak
18-11-2009, 00:16
c) i was only gonna run a small unit of flamers, like 3-5 at most, i just really like the model but i have to agree, i think they r overhyped..... i was workin out the math and rolled it out a few times today with a friend and equal points of archers can out shoot flamers usually (with longer range) fairly reliably..... but i can see how on a stand and shoot they would evaporate units

you are simply wrong about flamers. frontage counts. those flamers have the power of a huge archer unit, in a frontage of 2-3 inch. they also have a similar close combat value, as that massive archer unit.

a unit of 3 is ok. a unit of 6 is completely broken.

zeekill
18-11-2009, 00:32
Hey good job picking the two strongest Daemon armies and combining them. No one will care about that.

Stumpy
18-11-2009, 00:34
Flamers cannot be overestimated. If you're judging by their shooting damage, you're doing it wrong. Doing 5 or so wounds doesn't seem a big deal, except that the target can be fast cavalry or archers that would normally not be seen by ranged units. Flamers can move and shoot.
They are M6 and can see all around... they'll mash any 'normal' skirmisher in hand to hand. Charging in with flamers actually wins you combats. They're very resistant to damage. They get charged, they'll force a fear test, stand and shoot, then mash the charger in hand to hand.
If the enemy doesn't have magic or something particularly good at dealing with them (dragon princes) they're in trouble.

Roark
18-11-2009, 02:26
True the weaver is great but i see it in the league of other super-mages such as slaan, and in combat its lackluster at best so its not like it is unbeatable.


With the Blue Scribes, in the hands of a competent player, I think he pretty much is.

His combat may be lacklustre, but he is not there to trade blows in melee. He is there to throw endless (tailored) spells at the enemy at a distance.

Kairos is the most horrifically-underpriced character in the game.

Lowmans
18-11-2009, 15:45
If I saw this list at my FLGS I would play against it but only if every other player was occupied.

I think if you dropped the special characters that would be a good start in helping things 'friendlinesswise'. Or maybe agree a tweaked points cost with your regular opponents.

I'm afraid the ship has sailed long ago on the 'are demons cheesey' thing. Just take a look at the tournament scores for them.

malusdarkblade101
21-11-2009, 05:09
Greetings Brothers,

Well, to the original persons army list: yea, you might want to reconsider. Daemons are an awesome, awesome army fluff wise and are fun to make themed battles with but they can get crazy. The thing to keep in mind is that you and your opponent should have fun. So to do that, just play like how Warhammer players used to play all the time, everywhere: at least 33% core points, 2 or 3 characters max, and 8 power dice or less (including bound spells and things like that).


Also, do not use special chracters that are obviously on crack like Khairos. A regular Greater Daemon of Tzeentch is way kooler and is not so messed up. Besides, you are playing a 2000-ish point game right? Think of making an army, not a retinue for Khairos! This is the game of army battles, not of warband battles (that is called Mordheim!).

The company and independent retailers must be doing a bad job if people think this is a normal, good army list. Remember, take lots of troops, cheap characters and only a few special and rare choices (that is why they are called special and rare, obviously). It is all about having fun, so do so. You can use powered up units like Fleshounds and Flamers, and even take quite a few, just make sure you follow the previous guidelines. A person that has 40-50% core points in their army generally has everyone happy with them. Even Warriors of Chaos, Daemons of Chaos and Lizardmen.



Enjoy the game, think the heck out of things, play tactically and have fun! This game is all about the prior two things, so do it well and enjoy yourself. Hope this advice helps, brother


Courage and Honour


ps......Me and my dad play the Daemon army, which is why I can talk about them.

EndlessBug
21-11-2009, 08:12
Are you sure you don't want a Slaaneshi theme to it too? The Masque is still there to be taken...

Seriously, if you like the fluff for a mixed, Khorne going Tzeentch, why the ******* have you gone for 3 of the most broken special characters in the game? Yea, I really see Skulltaker switching to Tzeentch.

If you're serious about this fluff then drop the special characters! They're boring, samey and overpowered/underpriced. Once you've dropped these guys you'll have an ok list, but bear in mind that any army with Tzeentch daemons in it is gonna be cheesy.

ukko
21-11-2009, 11:59
TBH, the only thing really powerful about this list is Fateweaver, and even then, he is far from unbeatable (a couple of canons will do the trick) and grossly expensive. Given a 2000 point list the core units will be quite small, and without heralds, quite weak. One unit of flesh hounds can be compared to any other elite heavy cavalry out there (though with only a 5+ ward to save them) so no probs there. Flamers are WAAY overrated and screamers are a bit meh.

So overall, its not as bad as some people can make it out to be. True the weaver is great but i see it in the league of other super-mages such as slaan, and in combat its lackluster at best so its not like it is unbeatable.

Cy.

This is the sort of quote which could only come from someone who only plays daemons.

You're talking about one of the hardest lists in the game there - most armies you face in non-tournament environments will lose to this list, even if they completely outplay you.

malusdarkblade101
21-11-2009, 16:43
Once you've dropped these guys you'll have an ok list, but bear in mind that any army with Tzeentch daemons in it is gonna be cheesy.



Greetings Brothers,

From experience and from really reading all the army books thoroughly, I would have to disagree with you. First, why do you think the Tzeentch Daemons are cheesy? Is that just how you feel or do you have reasons for it? The Horrors are really a nice unit as long as they are not used in a cheesy way. As long as you do not exceed the right amount of power dice, who cares about using them. Flamers are very powerful but they are beatable, you just have to out think them. Screamers are useless unless they are played very smart, yes, then they are crazy good but they are high points for that. and they are very fragile. all the greater daemons are meant for at least 4000 point games, that is why they seem cheesy. the chariot is one of the most characterful things around. and that is it. The chariot is really good for contesting table quarters too, as it is unit strength 5.



Courage and Honour