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McBaine
17-11-2009, 09:53
During a recent game I declared a charge against a shade deathstar with a unit of knights of the realm and a unit of grail knights. He chooses stand & shoot aginst the grail knights, but the grail knights have the Banner of chalons which states : "The enemy cannot choose the stand and shoot reaction against the unit carrying the Banner".

How does this work now ?

1. He chooses stand & shoot vs the grail knights, I tell him they have the banner, so no stand and shoot occurs at all and I charge.

2. He chooses stand & shoot vs the grail knights, I tell him they have the banner, so he cant choose it against them, so is he allowed two declare stand and shoot against the knights of the realm ?

3. When he declares stand & shoot I tell him imediatly that he cant choose the grail knights and he chooses the Kotr.

PeG
17-11-2009, 10:22
If you declare the charge with the unit holding the banner first it shouldnt really matter. When unit two is about to charge the shades are ranked up against the first unit and cant stand and shoot against anyone since they are in combat.

T10
17-11-2009, 10:55
Or you could play by the actual rules and work out the stand-&-shoot before moving any of the chargers.

As for the OP: The best thing is probably to reveal the banner when you declare the charge. After all, the banner's effect is limited to reducing the target unit's response options. It doesn't give you the ability to "trick" your opponent in any way.

-T10

McBaine
17-11-2009, 13:44
Or you could play by the actual rules and work out the stand-&-shoot before moving any of the chargers.

Well, given the right circumstances PeG is right I think. Shades are skirmishers. The FAQ states that you move chargers one after another to see if any of the units gets a flank charge. If the sahedes then have a modell with a repeater handbow - say, a character or an assasin - they have to wait till all modells in the unit can shoot at the charging enemy as stated in the BRB for stand & shoot. So if I move the other unit first, they rank up and are not able to stand and shoot...
Under this special circumstances PeG is right, isnt he ?

nosferatu1001
17-11-2009, 14:24
You resolve S&S immediately that they are in range - and until they make contact they have no flank or rear therefore can stand and shoot.

PeG isnt right...

McBaine
17-11-2009, 14:42
You resolve S&S immediately that they are in range - and until they make contact they have no flank or rear therefore can stand and shoot.

Note this FAQ :

Q. If a skirmishing unit is charged by two or more enemy
units from different directions, how do I determine
which enemy hits them in the flank/rear as they have
none when the charges are declared?

A. In the Move Chargers part of the Movement phase, the
player controlling the chargers must decide which unit
goes in first against the skirmishers and move it in.
The skirmishers are then immediately formed up
normally against the first charger. At this point the
skirmishers have a front/flank/rear zone, and any other
charging enemy must treats the situation just like a
charge against a fight that was there from a previous turn.

If any of the models in the shades has a repeater handbow - such as a hero for example - this models range for S&S is 8". The Base Rulebook states that if your out of range you wait with S&S till the charging unit is in range of all models in the unit wich S&S. So they wait til the charging unit moves. According to the FAQ above I could decide to move the other unit first, then the shades rank up and when the other unit moves S&S is not possible anymore.

So, PeG is right, given theese circumstances.

Kerethar
17-11-2009, 15:07
Like T10 said: you resolve stand&shoot before moving chargers..

McBaine
17-11-2009, 15:35
Like T10 said: you resolve stand&shoot before moving chargers..
The rulebook states that you wait till all models are in range.
So, if there are models not in range you have to wait till the charging units move.
Or am I mistaken ?

Nurgling Chieftain
17-11-2009, 15:56
I don't think you have to wait for models which will never be able to fire. So, the shades can simply fire their repeater crossbows immediately.

yoshimo
17-11-2009, 16:14
In the above case its pretty clear that the shadestar can choose to fire at the kotr instead of the grail knights.

if however the motion was that the shadestar being out of range of the kotr at the start means that the unit which is not the target of their stand and shoot can be elected to move in first, preventing the unit from completing their stand and shoot reaction against the other unit.

There is a direct contradiction here in the order the BRB specifies S&S happens and the way skirmishers receive charges from multiple units.

The BRB states the S&S is resolved at the start of the move chargers phase before moving chargers.
But it provides an exception for if the target (kotr) is out of range and implies that the target gets to move just into range BEFORE the stand and shoot occurs, which would happen during the moving chargers phase.

However the FAQ provides for the attacking player to decide when moving chargers against skirmishers what order he shall move them in. So he could decide to move the other unit (GK) he has into combat, before moving the stand and shoot target just into range.

It would seem that the rules are in favour of the knights, but good sportsmanship dictates that the skirmishers should be allowed to shoot before you move your charging units. Even if the shadestar concept deserves banning

hill9969
17-11-2009, 20:51
I believe that it would work like this.

First, no S&S gets off if any of the charging units are are under half their charge range. BRB pg 19. According to the BRB if multiple units are charging a single unit the charges are moved simultaneously, pg 23. but against skirmishers you need to determine how they rank up for cc not S&S. I would think the shadestar get a S&S against the kotr because both chargers are going in at the same time even if you only move one at a time for the purposes of ranking up.

I would also say that if the grail knight's movement would but them in base to base contact with the shadestar before the kotr came within range for the S&S that no S&S would be able to get off. This is more of a opinion than rule but to me it makes sense as to the purpose of the rules.

nosferatu1001
17-11-2009, 21:07
Only for chargings against the same facing hill9969 - otherwise chargers are moved in charging order.

Dark_Knight
17-11-2009, 21:48
What about the WE always stand and shoot banner vs. the Banner of Chalons?

stripsteak
17-11-2009, 21:51
What about the WE always stand and shoot banner vs. the Banner of Chalons?

the woodelf banner only lets you stand and shoot when the enemies are normally too close. it doesn't prevent other things from stopping a stand and shoot reaction.

hill9969
18-11-2009, 05:07
Nosferatu1001,

In this situation aren't the charges facing the same direction since the skirmish unit doesn't have a facing? I looking the in FAQ but i couldn't find a definite answer as to what to do. I know in a previous post someone mentioned a quote from the FAQ but i can't find it.

nosferatu1001
18-11-2009, 08:17
They do not have any facing, so you cannot be in the same one

xragg
18-11-2009, 14:08
During a recent game I declared a charge against a shade deathstar with a unit of knights of the realm and a unit of grail knights. He chooses stand & shoot aginst the grail knights, but the grail knights have the Banner of chalons which states : "The enemy cannot choose the stand and shoot reaction against the unit carrying the Banner".

How does this work now ?

1. He chooses stand & shoot vs the grail knights, I tell him they have the banner, so no stand and shoot occurs at all and I charge.

2. He chooses stand & shoot vs the grail knights, I tell him they have the banner, so he cant choose it against them, so is he allowed two declare stand and shoot against the knights of the realm ?

3. When he declares stand & shoot I tell him imediatly that he cant choose the grail knights and he chooses the Kotr.

I would vote for option #4.

4. You declare charges with your grail knights and kotr. Opponent must choose a reaction for each unit being charged. Your banner prevents the unit being charged by the grail knights to choose S&S. Opponent is left to choose between hold or flee for that unit.

Units can only choose 1 charge reaction, not 1 charge reaction per unit charging it.

nosferatu1001
18-11-2009, 14:27
Xragg - except the banner states you cannot choose S&S against the unit - it does not say you cannot choose S&S at all.

Nurgling Chieftain
18-11-2009, 14:29
The banner only prevents you from S&S'ing the unit with the banner. A unit charged by the banner is still free to S&S a different unit that's also charging it (subject to the normal restrictions, of course).

xragg
18-11-2009, 15:05
...but if you choose stand and shot against another unit, your still choosing stand and shoot. You dont choose a reaction against each unit charging. You choose how each unit being charged will respond. 1 response.

You dont go and say, "I will hold vs charger A, S&S vs charger B, and hold vs charger C." You simply state the unit is S&S as a reaction. When it comes to the move chargers section, you can shoot at one of the charging units.

"A unit choosing S&S can shoot at one of the charging units."


--edit--now I got myself confused, as maybe the banner only prevents the unit from targeting the charger with the shots, but not actually declaring S&S as a reaction. Irregardless, you only ever make 1 charge response.--edit end


------

As far as the issue of not shooting until every model is in range with 1 model with a pistol or handbow is kind of an easter egg imo.

"If chargers start beyond the max range ... shots are made at maximum range of the weapons - the unit lets loose when all models firing are in range."

Even though all the shots occur once every model is in range, it still states the shots are made at maximum range. When a sentence is seperated by a dash like this, the sentence or phrase seperated is meant to help explain the rest of the sentence. The phrase just expands the rules to let you know all models can shot, not when just one model becomes in range for instance. Reordering the two sentences really shouldnt change the meaning.

The unit lets loose when all models firing are in range - shots are made at maximum range of the weapons.

This is just my personal opinion on the matter, and I dont expect anyone to agree with me. Luckily no one I play ever uses this strat and isnt an issue for me in real life.

Nurgling Chieftain
18-11-2009, 15:12
...but if you choose stand and shot against another unit, your still choosing stand and shoot.Correct, but "The banner only prevents you from S&S'ing the unit with the banner" so that's fine.

xragg
18-11-2009, 15:14
Correct, but "The banner only prevents you from S&S'ing the unit with the banner" so that's fine.

Ya, I edited my post a couple minutes after and basically added that. So in a round about way I think we agree now ;)