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View Full Version : What do you want in a new Ogre Kingdoms Book? (Wishlisting)



EdFireborn
17-11-2009, 12:09
So, as the title asks, what would you like/want? Current murmurings have Ogres coming out sometime after beasts (maybe before Tomb Kings even) so maybe (small chance) GW might see this thread and incorporate some ideas.

Personally, Rhinox Riders,

Gnoblar Characters (that cannot be the army general, ogres can't use leadership etc...),

Drastically improved magic,

Heavy Ogres - Probably a rare choice, 4+ armour save with an option of increasing to 3+ with ironfist thereby 2+ in close combat with hand weapons...

Reason to take standards on most ogre units

There are plenty more, that I can't remember off the top of my head...


P.S Well, I checked, and as far as I'm aware there's not been a post in the other thread on this since 4th March 2008, so i think I'm safe.

vahouth
17-11-2009, 12:15
3 ogres for a complete rank, not 5.

Drongol
17-11-2009, 12:42
3 ogres for a complete rank, not 5.

This is one of those things that gets thrown around like it'd help Ogres when, in fact, it wouldn't. 105 points is an awful lot to pay for +1 combat resolution, and even with a points reduction, we're probably still looking at around 90-100 points for a full 3-man rank of Ogre Bulls.

Those Bulls would be much better off as their own unit to bait and switch, flank, and cause casualties. But hey, I suppose that allowing Ogres to get a rank bonus would let the bad OK players be instantly identified--they'd be the ones running more than 4 Ogres in a single unit. ;)

That said, here's what Ogres actually need to be considered competitive, in my opinion.

1: Drastic points drop across the board, specifically focusing on Yhetees, Leadbelchers, and oh-my-god Maneaters.

2: "Ogre club" rule applying at all times regardless of weapon. Likewise, Ironfists counting as a shield in shooting and close combat. Heck, give all Ogres a 6+ Gutplate save and you'd be on to a fairly decent start.

3: Bull charge to not require a minimum charge distance. I mean, seriously, do the units stop moving in between turns? I know they do for game purposes, but in the "actuality" the game represents, wouldn't they be going full-tilt pretty much the whole time?

4: Revamp the magic item list for Ogres. Right now, I can think of maybe five items that are actually worth taking--Tenderizer, Skullmantle, Bangstick... It gets dodgy after that, actually.

5. Gut magic needs a looking-at. It's a neat concept, but increasing the difficulty of casting a single spell multiple times really doesn't scale up with the game. At, say, 10,000 points, taking 6 Butchers would actually hurt your magic phase.

Really, that should about do it.

Keller
17-11-2009, 13:52
My wish-list is pretty narrow for Ogres, as I am rather happy with them now. Most things have been mentioned already, but here goes:

Gnoblar Characters. Also the option for the rhinox mount for them. Just merge the Gnoblar Hordes list with the OK list (leaving out much of it, granted).

Hunters. - Make the Bolt-Thrower Move-And-Fire. You could replace the crossbow with a thrown spear, 18" range, S5, penetrates ranks, possibly keep the S test for LTs. It would make more sense for an Ogre Hunter to stalk and kill his prey this way than with a heavy cross-bow, IMO.

Gut Plates - All Ogrs should get a 6+ AS for wearing a gut plate. The Ogres T4 doesn't go far to protect them from missile fire, and the low model count army makes them drop fast to any substancial ranged attacks.

Rework the magic items. As mentioned, there are just too few items worth taking. I often find myself kitted out with mere mundane equipment. Far too many items are situational, too.

Points drop across all units.

Move Big-Names to outside of magic-item allowance, in keeping with other books. Add a few more Big Names with various affects.

Get rid of reloading on the Lead-Belchers. It makes sense, but bogs the game down when people don't properly keep track of whether they've fired or not.


I could go either way on the Rhinox Riders. I don't care much about them, but if they should be included, include the mount as options for Bruisers/Tyrants.

Get rid of 0-1 on the Tyrant. Again, it makes sense, but doesn't scale well for 4k+ games. Also, remove Slaughtermasters as requiring a Tyrant.

Remove the restriction that only Bruisers and Tyrants can be Generals, as it limits character selection too much. Players should be able to take Butchers, Hunters, or Slaughtermasters w/o needing a Tyrant/Bruiser to lead the army, especially in smaller games (1K for example).


Thats about it, for now.

Durloth
17-11-2009, 13:54
Edit: Like Keller said +WS4 Ironguts and less restrictions on the number of Gnoblar Fighter-units.

narrativium
17-11-2009, 14:54
I don't want what seems to be the current army list with everything made better (e.g. a drastic points drop and better abilities? No, pick one). I do want changes which make the army fit its background better - reasons to take larger units of Ogres, an end to the inanely precise manouverings. Those are tactics for elves. Ogres need to be a little more Daemon-like, brute force powerful, resilient to charges.

Such as: if an Ogre unit chooses to hold (instead of fleeing or standing and shooting), they push out their gut-plates and growl. Any unit (i.e. any unit which could normally suffer a stand and shoot reaction) charging the front of an Ogre unit will suffer impact hits exactly as if they had been hit by a Bull Charge. If the charging unit also inflicts impact hits, these hits occur simultaneously.

Now a unit of Bulls can stand two-deep and take a charge, as their opponents will take 3 S5 hits before they've even begun.

Other things: yes, Big Names need removing from the Magic Items allowance; yes, the Items need some work; yes, remove some of the restrictions within the army selection - but these changes don't need to drastically change the power of the army, just rebalance it.

MTUCache
17-11-2009, 15:44
I think everyone sees what Ogres can't do (generate static-CR), and assumes that's the one area where they should be "fixed".

A better solution, to me anyway, would be to come up with some way of the Ogres cancelling the opponents static-CR. Either an army-wide special rule about unit-strength (say, if the US of the ogres is higher than the opponent's, they don't receive any CR bonuses for ranks). Or, better yet, a buffing spell in the new Gutmagic which lets a unit cancel rank-bonuses when in combat, even if they're attacking in the front. This would make it much more strategic and flexible, without really changing any of the CR rules of the game.

The other suggestions have been great. A point-drop may not be the best solution for the army, but new magic, magic-items, big-names, and such is certainly needed. The bull-charge and ogre-club rules could use a retouch, as mentioned. Just the ability to make more than one or two semi-competitive builds would make a HUGE difference. You could start by making the Slaughtermaster a viable choice in 2k games. That alone would make for three or four different character selections.

Some decent magic-banners would be huge for this army. As it is right now, there's not really any reason to take a Bruiser/BSB. Instead of a handful of army-wide special rules it could add a lot of variety if a couple of them were available as banners instead, letting you change the flavor of your army simply by taking a different item.

Honestly I think that Rhinox probably shouldn't be in the book. The models are great, but WHFB has already gone far too monster-centric. We're already almost back to hero-hammer right now, with most armies consisting of multiple monsterous mounts or terror-causing monsters. Blocks of infantry are obviously never going to be OK's specialty, but there's no reason why any army needs to have multiple single model "units" worth hundreds of points. It really takes away from the point of WHFB, almost nobody fields an "army" anymore, it's just a bunch of skirmish forces with min-core and as many uber-beasts as you can get.

mdauben
17-11-2009, 15:57
This is one of those things that gets thrown around like it'd help Ogres when, in fact, it wouldn't. 105 points is an awful lot to pay for +1 combat resolution,
I admit, it would be a lot to pay for just +1 combat resolution, just like right now its a lot to pay for just +1S on the Bull Charge. However, if we could get both benefits, it starts to be worthwhile. When OK first came out, I had fair success with 4x2 sized units of Bulls, getting both benefits, so if we could get the benefit on 3x2 sized units, I think that would be a nice present.


I don't want what seems to be the current army list with everything made better (e.g. a drastic points drop and better abilities? No, pick one).
I have to agree with Narrativium. Currently, many of the units in the OK list are overpriced for what they can do. To fix that we could see either better abilities (6+ AS for gutplate, some new special rules, etc.) or point decreases. Doing both would I think be excessive.

I'd love to see the Rhinox Riders make it to the Army Book, although not as OTT as the FW version of their rules.

Some tweaks to Gut Magic, Magic Items and Big Names would just about do it, IMO.

Keller
17-11-2009, 16:34
I don't want what seems to be the current army list with everything made better (e.g. a drastic points drop and better abilities? No, pick one).

Thats a great point, and one I whole heartily agree with. I guess I should have taken that into account in listing them both in my so called wishlist.

Jind_Singh
17-11-2009, 16:48
1) I like the point someone made that charging a unit of ogres still causes impact hits! you can imagine the fat buggers just standing there as someone bounces of them!!!!
2) Ranks of 3, while expensive, is still a good option as theres now a reason to take the extra rank for +1 res and +1 str to bull charge.
3) More characters - as it's lame how the Tyrant is needed to field slaughtermaster, and the butchers wont lead the armies - weres issue when all other races may be lead by anything.
4) More Gnoblar unit variations
5) SLight points reduction for Maneaters
6) Rhinox cav!!! Oh yeah!
7) A base 6+ gut plate save would work nice for ogres, as now light armoumr makes them 5+, add ironfist for 4+ - but leave it at that, dont give an ogre 3+!! That would be horrible! 3+, T4, 3 wounds...EEKKK!!!
8) New Gorgor model - I cant stand the old ones!
9) Some special characters - they mention a lot of names for tyrants but would be nice to see stats for them


AND PLEASE, PLEASE keep the concept of the artwork/stories/funny little ogre scripts they had for the old army book, I love the feel & look of the old book.

The SkaerKrow
17-11-2009, 16:57
I will be happy enough if Ogre Kingdoms get a new book, as I have a bad feeling that they're going to go the way of the Chaos Dwarfs.

mattieice
17-11-2009, 17:02
bring back the ogre marching song from the 4th edition bestiary! i think it went:

oh what does an ogre eat? oh what does an ogre eat?
well them men is lean and sweet.
(then something about dwarfs being too hairy and elves being too lean)
but don't give us skaven. no more skaven.
cuz them skaven they taste o' rat.

Malorian
17-11-2009, 17:10
I'd like to see:

-bull charge always work no matter how far away you were when you charged or how many are in the unit.
-ironfists act as shields against shooting
-hunters are special and always hit large targets on a 2+, and their sabretusks can leave them without charging out
-Slaughter masters can be taken without a tyrant
-Rhinox riders and option for them to be taken as a mount
-Bulls, ironguts, and leadbeltchers can be taken in units of 1+
-Maneaters can join ogre units like characters and make the unit stubborn
-Slave giant's chain strangle attack is based off initiative and not toughness

Cain-asmodeus
17-11-2009, 17:27
OK are still hanging in there, I like the army concept. I doubt they will be 'put' aside like the squats, for their is a lot of fanbase.

I wouldnt doubt the Chaos Dwarfs either, for they have a large following, and soon we get to see these diabolical forces in the feild.

I do beleive there are simple ways to improve the Ogres, like some mentioned before. I do beleive the army should have a better allocation of points, and lower the rank size to 3 to receive rank bonus.

Id like to see their standard to give them a static 2 to CR instead of 1, the other would be to give all or most ogres the static 6+ gutplate. More Special characters would be nice too like, Jhared the Red and Braugh Slavelord

ambrosehlbiercemencken
17-11-2009, 18:20
Rhinox should be some sort of Gnoblar fighting platform, an ogre riding one is a bit silly. So more chariot than cavalry.

Jind_Singh
17-11-2009, 18:58
And I want to back up someones point of WS 4 for Iron Guts - that would help out big time!!

They (GW) have to walk a fine line with the OK, if they tweak them too much they will lose their essence of being a truely unique army - though not a tough army is nether the less very appealing to play with for generals looking for a challange.
Small modifications here and there, a few tweaks to some units points, and relaxation of the silly restrictions on list building - ie 1 bull unit for a gnoblar unit - just let it be that any Gnobalr unit does not count towards core - but allow us freedom to collect them how we want!

Col. Tartleton
17-11-2009, 19:28
I'd like to see their ranks be based off their actual base size. For example, 1 row of ogres is 2 ranks, 2 rows are 4 ranks for terms of combat resolution. That would give them the thunder. 6 Ogres become roughly 24 models for intents and purposes.

Anyhow, Gnoblars should get a full set of options that are totally ineffective and totally cool. Gnoblar riding on Gnoblar cavalry? Yes please. Rhinoxes with howdahs and gnoblars with pointed bits? Yessir. An Ogre that chucks Gnoblars as a stone thrower... Cool stuff.

They should have two lores I think. Gut Magic of the Maw and Ice Magic.

Gut Magic should be about buffing your troops and use a fighting system where every so many wounds caused by the butcher/slaughter master generate your casting die. Then Ice Lore should be your offensive casty magic and should be done by a "Stormcaller Shaman" (Pretty much a stinking fur wearing ogre wearing a mammoth skull) or something. Pretty much I think a duality should be implemented. Ogres should have combat casters with low powered abilities that are easy to get off and pretty much get around dispelling because it's not worth stopping them.

Then Ice Lore can be a nifty shooty death/ powerful things lore. Lightning bolts, Freezing rain to slow enemy movement, fog to shroud your troops from enemy fire, storm winds forcing flyers to the ground, freezing troops in blocks of ice, avalanches.

You need one lore to cripple the enemies ability to fight, and one lore to boost your ability to fight. You do that and suddenly Ogres get really scary which they should be, since they're really scary.:D

3lwap0
17-11-2009, 19:53
So, as the title asks, what would you like/want? Current murmurings have Ogres coming out sometime after beasts (maybe before Tomb Kings even) so maybe (small chance) GW might see this thread and incorporate some ideas.



Beastmen are scheduled for Feb, and the current rumor is that Tomb Kings are in May. So..that's March-April for Ogres? That seems unlikely, or really not very feasible.

I don't mean to nay say really, because I would love for OK to get a re-write. I dream of them getting a re-write, honestly. I just question the practicality, and having a feel for GW's release schedule. Also, 3 fantasy releases in a row? No 40k? They tend to stagger methodically, and this smacks of irregular.

Urgat
17-11-2009, 21:11
This topic has been covered I don't know how many times already...
So instead of pointlessly repeating myself, I'll be at the same time original, silly and short (well, goblin)! One word: skirmish :p
Who want rank bonuses? They're ogres, they shouldn't even know what a rank is :p

EdFireborn
17-11-2009, 21:42
Beastmen are scheduled for Feb, and the current rumor is that Tomb Kings are in May. So..that's March-April for Ogres? That seems unlikely, or really not very feasible.

I don't mean to nay say really, because I would love for OK to get a re-write. I dream of them getting a re-write, honestly. I just question the practicality, and having a feel for GW's release schedule. Also, 3 fantasy releases in a row? No 40k? They tend to stagger methodically, and this smacks of irregular.

The rumour of Tomb Kings in May was what i was refering to, that some people are saying may is in fact OK with Tomb Kings pushed further back. I think Tomb Kings are in need of an update, and so are Ogres so i will remain impartial on the subject

3lwap0
17-11-2009, 22:06
The rumour of Tomb Kings in May was what i was refering to, that some people are saying may is in fact OK with Tomb Kings pushed further back. I think Tomb Kings are in need of an update, and so are Ogres so i will remain impartial on the subject

I hear what you're saying. If I was a betting man, i'd say TKs get the nod. OK's always seemed like a novelty army, than anything seriously supported by GW. Either way, you're right, they both need an updating.

mdauben
17-11-2009, 22:54
I will be happy enough if Ogre Kingdoms get a new book, as I have a bad feeling that they're going to go the way of the Chaos Dwarfs.
I don't know anything about their sales figures, but for what is almost universally considered a "bottom tier" army in terms of competition, they still seem rather popular among the on-line WHFB community.

Personally, I would hate to see them go not only because I have a fair amount invested in my OK army, but because the are a very different army from everyone else, and provide a very different play style and gaming experience. I would hate to see that variety removed from the game. :(

AlmightyNocturnus
17-11-2009, 23:36
As others have said, OK needs something that negates/lowers the opponents static combat resolution. I believe this is more important than buffing Ogres rank bonus, etc. Perhaps a banner that ignores outnumbering, a banner that eats enemy banners in base contact, or a banner that limits opponents rank bonus to +1 would help.

Points reduction (especially for Maneaters), always usable bull charge, 6+ save gut plates, reworking of gut magic (but keep it mainly as unit buffs...I don`t want three varieties of magic missile in our lore), throw out the various "crippling" rules (Slave Giant`s throttle with chain IIRC, Scraplauncher blows itself up roll, Sabretusks can`t leave Maneater unless they have a unit to charge, Must have Tyrant to take Slaughtermaster, etc.) - all of these things would be welcome.

I will go against the grain here and say that Ironguts shouldn`t have WS4 (fluff reasons). But gut plate + heavy armor equals 4+ would be most welcome.

Rhinox Cavalry as a Rare choice.

Lastly, I can`t remember where I first read it, but I love the idea of ultra-weak, fast cavalry Gnoblar Billy Goat Riders. The models would be ******** sweet (Gnoblars trying to look intimidating on the back of Rams and long-horned Billy Goats). I say give them bickering since it can`t be easy to cajole a Billy Goat into doing anything, but give them some other interesting rules like move across rocky terrain without penalty, +1S on the charge (for the goats, not the Gnoblars), immune to Fear caused by Trolls, and some kind of outflank ability that lets them come in from the side of the board (i.e. down the mountain). Billy Goat Riders all the way!

Almighty Nocturnus

Tenken
18-11-2009, 00:00
Lastly, I can`t remember where I first read it, but I love the idea of ultra-weak, fast cavalry Gnoblar Billy Goat Riders. The models would be ******** sweet (Gnoblars trying to look intimidating on the back of Rams and long-horned Billy Goats). I say give them bickering since it can`t be easy to cajole a Billy Goat into doing anything, but give them some other interesting rules like move across rocky terrain without penalty, +1S on the charge (for the goats, not the Gnoblars), immune to Fear caused by Trolls, and some kind of outflank ability that lets them come in from the side of the board (i.e. down the mountain). Billy Goat Riders all the way!


Yes that's be awesom! I wanna get into ogres, but I'm afraid they're gunna be dropped so I won't get anything til a new book comes out. But the 6+ save gutplates is a good idea. I don't really like the idea of ogres having static combat res from anything other than a banner. I think they should get some rule that allows them to remove enemy static CR as getting charged by a wall of 12 foot tall 600 lb cannibalistic giants is rather frightening. also a boost to leadership in some form or another doesn't seem like it could hurt.

O&G'sRule
18-11-2009, 00:21
halflings instead of gnoblars, more ingenious rules so that the horde side works, no stupid magic items/abilities like immune to ice magic.

Jind_Singh
18-11-2009, 04:22
Lastly, I can`t remember where I first read it, but I love the idea of ultra-weak, fast cavalry Gnoblar Billy Goat Riders. The models would be ******** sweet (Gnoblars trying to look intimidating on the back of Rams and long-horned Billy Goats). I say give them bickering since it can`t be easy to cajole a Billy Goat into doing anything, but give them some other interesting rules like move across rocky terrain without penalty, +1S on the charge (for the goats, not the Gnoblars), immune to Fear caused by Trolls, and some kind of outflank ability that lets them come in from the side of the board (i.e. down the mountain). Billy Goat Riders all the way!

Almighty Nocturnus

DUDE!!!! What the hell! Thats made my day, and if it becomes reality then it'll make my YEAR!!!!
Quality!!!

hill9969
18-11-2009, 06:31
I would like to see gnoblar characters that allow you to take a lvl1 wizard that doesn't use gut magic. I like the gut magic but but its uses are specific and situational from my experience.

I would also like all Ogre units to have bellowers automatically without paying for them. They just shout so why can't any ogre do that?

I would also like a big name that adds +1 to that Ogre characters leadership.

AlmightyNocturnus
18-11-2009, 06:44
I see some people posting things on here like "Ogres will be phased out like Chaos Dwarves" were. I say (and I hope you`re listening someone from GW), if you want to make Ogre Kingdoms into a major seller, follow these three guidlines:
1. Make Billy Goat Riders
2. Make it so OK aren`t weak and handicapped in every battle
3. Make a magic weapon like this: "Daemon Vanquisher: magic weapon, ignores ward saves, all daemons wounded by Daemon Vanquisher lose all remaining wounds as they are banished back to warp. 35 points"

Then you will see many new Ogre Kingdoms players.

Almighty Nocturnus

EdFireborn
18-11-2009, 07:16
Maybe Almighty Noctunus should write the next book?

Urgat
18-11-2009, 08:09
I hear what you're saying. If I was a betting man, i'd say TKs get the nod. OK's always seemed like a novelty army, than anything seriously supported by GW.

How so? OK got 100% of its models, not every army can make that claim.

AlmightyNocturnus
18-11-2009, 08:41
Thank you EdFireborn...I`d love that job!

Almighty Nocturnus

Zazoo
18-11-2009, 09:48
Most the changes Id Like to see have been covered but the one that Id really like to see is that Ogres are Stubborn if they outnumber thier opponent.

Makes sense since what self respecting Ogre would run away from its food.

As pretty as a Gnoblar
18-11-2009, 10:42
Maybe Almighty Noctunus should write the next book?

cough Sarcasam cough


Anyway the Ogres have the same problem as the Space Marines in 40k.If you make them as tough as the fluff says,they are virtually unkillable.

I like the book,the unit choices,nothing more needs to be added,maybe a gnoblar shaman/boss and that it is.

Even the weapon options are fine,and th unii rolls are good,but....

The basic Ogre profile HAS to change.

Then we rock:D
+1 Ld,Stuborn,+1 S,Gutplate Save

Darnok
18-11-2009, 14:39
The OK might get a new book around mid 2010, or they might not, I have no idea. But wishlisting is nice, every now and then. :D

Most of what the OK have right now should stay, and change slightly at most. Normal ogres, ogres in heavy armour, ogres with "guns", ogre characters... I think that should stay at least.

More characters are needed. Right now I can choose... not that much. There are better fighty ogres (Bruiser/Tyrant) a magic ogre (Butcher) and a "skirmisher" (Hunter), plus two strange special characters. There should be at least one more "character style", and at least one more special character.

Magic items are in dire need of work. More stuff, and definetely more useful stuff!

Concerning new units... I'd like to see a few surprises. What about a warmachine manned by ogres? The Skaven Doombell shows that something that big is doable in plastic, and it would certainly be a great centrepiece for any OK army. I also expect some new ogre variant. The current setup of the basic ogres with additional add-on pieces is just made to be expanded. And if it was only one additional sprue with more bitz and gubbins.

On the Gnoblar front there is also room for more. Maybe a "two heroes per slot" Gnoblar character as a hero choice? Maybe a second type of infantry regiment? Maybe some whacky stuff? There is lots of potential.

Anyway, I'm quite excited about whatever might be in a new book.

Edit: Yup, a nice post #2000. :)

Enigmatik1
18-11-2009, 15:28
I've always wondered why Ogres weren't inherently Stubborn...

Tenken
18-11-2009, 15:38
I've always wondered why Ogres weren't inherently Stubborn...

Cuz then they'd be to good to not be worshiping chaos.:rolleyes: Damn you chaos taking everything that's not a combat weenie away from me! I want my saurus to have ws 5 and init 4!!!:mad:

A rule like "Are you gunna eat that?: All ogres are stubborn when fighting enemies that use smaller bases, or when outnumbering enemies on equal size or larger bases." would be good and not make all ogres OP.

Enigmatik1
18-11-2009, 15:44
A rule like "Are you gunna eat that?: All ogres are stubborn when fighting enemies that use smaller bases, or when outnumbering enemies on equal size or larger bases." would be good and not make all ogres OP.

I approve! :D

Scallat
18-11-2009, 17:58
Ironguts get D3 impact hits from Bullcharges. Ogres no longer only get impact hits if they charge more than half thier range.

Cain-asmodeus
18-11-2009, 18:02
I would love to see Rhinox riders as part of the list, but reduced to 1 rare

The lookout gnoblar should give the standard and extra 1 to CR, and makes any outnumbering unit against them loose their rank bonus

What if a Tyrant or Hunter Captured a Sand Worm to ride to battle? like the huge Sand Worms in Dune?:eek:

TheDarkDuke
18-11-2009, 18:26
Ogres have lots that need tweaked but not drastically changed. They don't much need new units, although I would be surprised if they didn't add Rhinox Riders to the army. General things that need to be done:

Points for Ogre base sized models needs to be re-adjusted.

As above, the special rules contribute to the cost and have little to no upside (Bull Club/Bull Charge). These need to be drastically rethought IMO.

Ogres should receive some form of thick hide save much like Lizardmen receive, to make life a bit easier vrs massed ranged armies.

Magic items need a major revamp. They can keep like 9 current useable items, and toss the rest as they are simply useless in every situation. Big names will probably go bye-bye but I would only ever miss Deathcheater anyways.

blackjack
18-11-2009, 19:31
I think the best improvment would be +1str across the board for all Oger models and characters. Why is a 9+ foot tall 900lb critter only as strong as a slightly above average human?

Combine with taking away the min charge distance on impact hits, a 6+ Gut plate and iron hand counting as a shield (for a 4+ save in CC 5+ at range) and you would have a pretty good army.

Grom Wronghand
18-11-2009, 19:52
Billy goat riders. Love. it.

A special Ogre slaver unit (commonly appears in fluff) that can be taken as a champ for a unit of gnoblars, whipping them into battle, making them stubborn.

To provide greater variety to the character choices, I'd like to see a pitfighter character that goes utterly berserk and rampages around killing stuff. It MUST declare a challenge if possible, is frenzied, has like, 6 attacks at S5 and such and is immune to psychology and is a loner.

I'd like trappers to have javelins. No real reason, I just think it'd look cool. And I like javelins.

Make slavegiants worth it. As it stands they run too easily.

Make maneaters a little cheaper, and able to join units as someone above said.

Make it so that big names have a separate points limit from magic items, and completely redo the items. Especially the banners.

Rhinox riders of course as a 1 rare, and available as a mount for tyrants.

Keller
18-11-2009, 20:22
I love the idea of billy-goat cav! Though to be honest, it hardly seems like something the M6 army needs, it sure would be fun!



To provide greater variety to the character choices, I'd like to see a pitfighter character that goes utterly berserk and rampages around killing stuff. It MUST declare a challenge if possible, is frenzied, has like, 6 attacks at S5 and such and is immune to psychology and is a loner.
Sounds an awful lot like the Gorger we have now. I'd say just give it the option to deploy normally instead of the advanced deployment rules of now and it would be fine. Mine never show up, so I'd probably take them more if I could deploy as a normal unit. Plus, every other unit has that option (miners, tunneling teams, Tomb Scorpians, etc.)


I'd like trappers to have javelins. No real reason, I just think it'd look cool. And I like javelins. Sharp Stuff is better than javelins, as you get 2x MS. Throwing axes do provide a +1S, though, which could be handy on S2 models.



Make slavegiants worth it. As it stands they run too easily. I like the current Slave Giants; their rules make sense for their fluff. The only thing I would change about them is to make their vs large-enemies attacks to work off of I instead of T, since most such things have T5 (or atleast T4) and these attacks only have a 1-in-6 chance of doing anything.



Make maneaters a little cheaper, and able to join units as someone above said. I rather like the idea of solo or units of Man Eaters, but a slight points drop would be appreciated. IF you wanted them to be able to join units, they'd have to be treated like DE Assassins, or the Cult of Ulric priests, being upgrades for units, and would not be able to form a unit of 2+ ME's.

grumbaki
18-11-2009, 21:30
I think the best improvment would be +1str across the board for all Oger models and characters. Why is a 9+ foot tall 900lb critter only as strong as a slightly above average human?

Combine with taking away the min charge distance on impact hits, a 6+ Gut plate and iron hand counting as a shield (for a 4+ save in CC 5+ at range) and you would have a pretty good army.

I completely agree with this. It just makes sense for them to be str 5, and with t 4 and 3 wounds, they are plenty tough enough. I'd also put ogre heroes at T5 and tyrants at Str 6 T 5!

However, I'd also add +1 WS and +1 LD to all ogres. I mean, in the fluff they are brave and spend their entire lives fighting, so shouldn't their stats reflect this? Plus it'd really help them in not failing so many panic tests...

EdFireborn
18-11-2009, 23:17
cough Sarcasam cough

No sarcasm.... I was being sincere (for a change... how strange for an australian???)

I am starting to really like the idea of a 6+ save for gut plate... Glad that most people agree

ChaosVC
19-11-2009, 02:58
Less fat racisms inspired fabricated asian looking ogres artworks? :rolleyes:

chaos0xomega
19-11-2009, 04:05
I like the idea of removing the enemies CR instead of giving the Ogres CR. Perhaps call the rule "Gut-Barging" and explain it as the Ogre's breaking up the enemy ranks to grab for food?

I doubt they will be out before TK btw, we should have heard something about them by now if they are coming before TK.

someone2040
19-11-2009, 04:32
However, I'd also add +1 WS and +1 LD to all ogres. I mean, in the fluff they are brave and spend their entire lives fighting, so shouldn't their stats reflect this? Plus it'd really help them in not failing so many panic tests...
Saurus fight all their lives as well, but you don't see them with weaponskill 4. Personally I think Ogres weaponskill wise are where they should be, just like Saurus, they make up for it in the amount of attacks they dish out and being tough.

AlmightyNocturnus
19-11-2009, 04:47
While reading some of the above posts, I had an idea for Maneaters.

What if Maneaters could still be purchased as a rare slot, but then placed in other Ogre units like characters. It would be a unique game mechanic to the OK army.

The Fluff effects: These better trained, infinitely more experienced Ogres come back to the tribe and try to teach what they`ve learned to the younger Ogres. These younger Ogres, as a sign of respect, try to emulate their Maneater. If you put the Pirate Maneater in your unit of Bulls, they add feathers, a cap here and there, an eye patch, etc. It could be fun from a modelling stand point.

The Game effects: That unit gains stubborn and can use the Maneaters Ld. This would effectively get rid of the need to include the over-priced champions in Ogre units. It would also be a way to give some units stubborn without making it an army wide rule.

Just an idea...maybe not as good as Billy Goat Riders...but an idea nonetheless.

Almighty Nocturnus

Volker the Mad Fiddler
19-11-2009, 05:00
SNIP

They should have two lores I think. Gut Magic of the Maw and Ice Magic.
SNIP

They can have Ice magic when the pry it from my cold dead Kislev fingers. Of course, I just don't like all the book specific lores.

More on topic, I like the zany gnoblar suggestions and would like to see the Ogres more viable, but as I don't play them can't really offer any good suggestions. Just wanted to step in and defend the Kislevities. But, I did think of them negating rank bonus when they bull charge, but rejected the idea. Static CR is already taking a beating in the game is not really the biggest problem so giving people even more reason not to use it, doesn't seem like a great idea.

CrownAxe
19-11-2009, 09:43
I'm liking the opponent losing Combat Res. Make it opponent loses Rank bonus (and maybe Outnumber) on the turn Ogres charge. Probably could replace (or become) Bull Charge

An idea i had for Ogre rank bonus was treating them like a 2x2 of 20mm bases. So you only need a 3x1 for a +1 rank bonus and a 3x2 for a +3 rank bonus (though losing on model will knock is back to +1)

Other then that the only thing to do with ogres is give them diversity. Its basically units of Ogres and units of Gnoblars. Give some calvery or some unit specific rules or what ever. Add in some Stat Boosts/Point Reductions and be good to go

Darnok
19-11-2009, 11:18
I doubt they will be out before TK btw, we should have heard something about them by now if they are coming before TK.

Why? We have heard nothing about stuff after the new Beastmen in February. That thread about TK in May is nothing but wishlisting - as is this thread. But I'm not that deep into WFB rumours, so I may have missed something...

EdFireborn
19-11-2009, 11:26
All we know is that next year will most likely see 8th edition and a new starter set, plus beastmen in feb.

The TK thread is essentially this, except its masquerading as rumours.

I believe a member has a sig along these lines

Warseerite 1: I heard we are getting A
Warseerite 2: Wouldn't it be cool if we got B
Warseerite 3: Cool! We are getting B.

In this situatuon

Warseerite 1: We are getting beastmen in Feb
Warseerite 2: Hopefully Tomb Kings will be in the May slot then, with all these things changed
Warseerite 3: OMG TOMB K!NGS IN MAY!!!!11!!! AND LOOK AT THE NEW COOL TOYZ!!!!11!!

The thread however was probably started by someone hearing warseerite 3, not acutally being warseerite 3

Enigmatik1
19-11-2009, 14:42
Ed is right on point.

With Beastmen being the next release, our two armies now fall to the ranks of the bottom feeders. Wood Elves and Brettonia may still be 6th edition armies as well, but are both infinitely better off than either Ogre Kingdoms or Tomb Kings. Both armies have quite a few glaring internal and external balance issues that need to be addressed to make them steadily competitive under 7th edition rules, without even touching on any possible shifts in play that an 8th edition will cause.

Now are being led to believe that there's an 8th edition on the horizon and even the crazy possibility of a new army as well (which I don't condone with armies such as ours not up to snuff, but whatever). A new edition means a new boxed set and we all know that the new set is not going to be OK vs. TK. A new army means a longer wait for us to get the attention we need.

Whatever armies are in the boxed set will be the first to get updated. There may be yet another army interjected into the mix and it would be safe to assume that some of the more "popular" armies would probably get redone again before we're even thought of. By which time, given GWs track record, 9th edition could very well be in development by the time we're thought of again.

wilzif
19-11-2009, 15:11
Only just noticed this thread :rolleyes:


Don't think this has come up, but I'd like some kind of magic item that allowed bearer+unit to reroll attacks at anything. I appreciate there is a standard for same base size, but my bulls really do suck sometimes.

Not so sure about WS+ on ironguts or maneaters, I think they hit hard enough. Bulls need a point reduction imo and overall equipment in the list needs looking at as I barely use a lot of it.

Cheaper/improved slave giants and leadbelchers wouldn't go amiss.

Other than that, I like the list as more of a challenge army.

Grom Wronghand
19-11-2009, 17:02
I had a good idea IMO. As many people are saying, make impact hits work even under half range of charge, but to combine it with some other suggestions, have it negatively affect the enemy's rank bonus (half it rounding up/down, -1, ignore it, whichever is most balanced) if they charge over half their maximum movement range to represent the momentum not only crushing soldiers, but disrupting entire formations when enough speed is gathered.

chaos0xomega
19-11-2009, 17:23
What grom said.

And I like the 3 warseerite explanation of rumors. So, Ogres out before May, huh? Wouldnt it be be cool if we got fishmen?

CrownAxe
19-11-2009, 20:48
What grom said.

And I like the 3 warseerite explanation of rumors. So, Ogres out before May, huh? Wouldnt it be be cool if we got fishmen?

Ah sweet, i better start converting some awesome fishmen models for when they're released :P

mdauben
19-11-2009, 22:17
Ah sweet, i better start converting some awesome fishmen models for when they're released :P
Have you seen how cool the new Fishmanshaman is! Fishmen rawk! :angel:

Cain-asmodeus
20-11-2009, 04:12
um....fishmen?

.......dude where's my buddy?:eek:

...... u didnt eat him did you?:confused:

Why did you have to eat bob...... he was my favorite fishy:cries:


.....anyways bob will always be remembered as the brave Fishman who said hello to a maneater:cries:

Cain-asmodeus
20-11-2009, 04:21
Heres some ideas id like to throw out there

1. Maneaters drop in points and given ability to join 'ogre' units

2. Rinox Riders as Rare, and mount choice.

3. Slave Titan..... sounds cool to me 5x times the size of giants

4. Sand Worm Mount for Tyrant as big as warmammoth, and the Maw gives the Tyrant an actual mount..... One of the Tyrants caught / or raised a sand worm near the Great Maw :p

5. Gut plates are a must to all ogres, 6+ saves

6. 3 ogres makes a complete rank, and on bull charge ignores enemy ranks and outnumber.


............may bob live happily in the maneater :angel:

Dooks Dizzo
23-11-2009, 22:06
Saber tooth packs of 5 to 10 as fast cav.

Malorian
23-11-2009, 22:18
1. Maneaters drop in points and given ability to join 'ogre' units

I think this is a good idea and would help things a lot.

2. Rinox Riders as Rare, and mount choice.

Yup

3. Slave Titan..... sounds cool to me 5x times the size of giants

Um... Don't know about that...

4. Sand Worm Mount for Tyrant as big as warmammoth, and the Maw gives the Tyrant an actual mount..... One of the Tyrants caught / or raised a sand worm near the Great Maw :p

Although it sounds cool it's really just making stuff up and throwing it in. I'd combine this and the last idea to add something like the chaos war mammoth.

5. Gut plates are a must to all ogres, 6+ saves

I have no problem with this, but at the same time who cares about a 6+ save... most of the attacks out there will just ignore it anyway...

6. 3 ogres makes a complete rank, and on bull charge ignores enemy ranks and outnumber.

The first part is bad because it would make people waste points by going for ranks of ogres (105 points for +1 CR? in plain bulls? 144 in ironguts?), and the idea of straight up ignoring your opponent's ranks is just crazy and obviously overpowered.

grumbaki
23-11-2009, 22:24
One idea that I thought of...

When ogres fight enemies who are smaller than them (Unit strength 1-2) they follow the same rules for deciding who wins a fight, but for their Ld they only lose Ld for wounds taken as they don't take anything smaller than them seriously unless they are actually getting hurt.

Example: 3 bulls charge 20 Empire swordsmen. The ogres kill 3 swordsmen and take 1 woundd back. They lose combat by 3 (3 ranks, standard, musician, 1 wound). Under the old rules they now take a Ld test on a 4. Under the new rules, they take it on a 6. That can make a big difference, especially if a tyran is nearby to give them higher leadership.

Addition: Against fear causing enemies, they lose leadership like normal but do not auto break. Terror causers will still autobreak them. This represents, again, the ogres' confidence when fighting anything smaller than them.

So using the same example as above, only it is 20 skeletons, the ogres would take a leadership test on a 4 instead of needing a 2 (insane courage).

With this, they are not breaking enemies like crazy, but they stick around longer. I'd say it fits their fluff pretty well without overpowering them.

Keller
24-11-2009, 01:53
Addition: Against fear causing enemies, they lose leadership like normal but do not auto break. Terror causers will still autobreak them. This represents, again, the ogres' confidence when fighting anything smaller than them.

So using the same example as above, only it is 20 skeletons, the ogres would take a leadership test on a 4 instead of needing a 2 (insane courage).

They presently do not auto-break to losing to fear-causing enemies. All ogres Cause Fear, thus making them immune to normal fear. However, they would still break to a Terror-causing unit that outnumbers them, as they will suffer fear towards them.

Ri-xthoal Lord of Lustira
24-11-2009, 02:23
The only new I would see are the thunder lords, that's about it.

But really what they need is to change all of their rules to make them combat effective and remove the noblers rules were they can be an army of their own (though most likely it is not really to happen but this will be something new.)

Petey
24-11-2009, 04:51
I d like to see the Maneaters as unit champions. IE you can buy them as an upgrade from the normal unit champion, and stack on the special gear, as well as have them be a rare choice. I d also like to see them need a frontage of 3 to get rank bonuses, and/or 4 for bull charge.
Clarification on their equipment might also be nice.

Dooks Dizzo
24-11-2009, 16:42
I'd like to see units of maneaters able to take big names or limited magic items.

A unit of maneaters with Daemon Killer Scars would be awesome. Of course I would change the effect to the following: Maneaters with Daemon Killer Scars for units with the daemonic rule to reroll successfull ward saves.

Skogla
24-11-2009, 20:09
6. 3 ogres makes a complete rank, and on bull charge ignores enemy ranks and outnumber.

7. lets throw in a mat ward save just for the sake of it ;)

but really, most of the ideas here are good
imo make the hunter usefull by giving him a real bolt thrower to shoot with :d

Revlid
24-11-2009, 22:17
Changes to the army list. (http://talismancy.com/hammer/viewtopic.php?t=2487)

New and amended Special Characters. (http://talismancy.com/hammer/viewtopic.php?t=2494)

Summary of list changes:
*Armour Piercing applies to all Ogre attacks.
*Bull Charge is automatic, regardless of distance or numbers.
*All Ogre models count as a Musician.
*New Pet Gnoblars.
*New Big Names. Big Names are now separate in cost from Magic Items.
*New and amended Magic Items.
*Rhinox/Bull Rhinox Mount available to Tyrant. Rhinox available to Bruiser.
*Slaughtermaster may be General.
*Hunter is cheaper, and has Harpoon Crossbow as an optional extra. He may have up to four Sabretusks, or a Cavebeast. If he has no pets, he may Scout.
*Bulls come with Light Armour for free, and may be upgraded to Pitfighters.
*Yhetees have two hand weapons. Their Aura of Cold now reduces enemy WS.
*Leadbelchers do not have to reload.
*Scraplauncher replaced with Scrap Cart. May be upgraded to Scraplauncher or Skewerslinger.
*New Unit: Ogre Trackers. Ogres with a free move of 6", and hunting spears that act as half-way house between Javelin and Bolt Thrower.
*Maneaters may take RoR-esque upgrades.
*Gorgers are simplified.
*Slavegiants are cheaper, have the same attack table as a regular Giant, and may be accompanied by an Ogre Goader.
*Rhinox Riders added.

The only thing I still feel I need to add is another Gnoblar unit of some sort...

Summary of Special Characters:
Greasus Goldtooth - The most powerful Tyrant in the Mountains of Mourn, the obscenely fat and obscenely rich Greasus is the one largely responsible for pulling them into an occasionally cohesive nation of sorts, and is grudgingly recognized as the technical ruler of any Tribe within shouting distance of his heralds.

Ghark Ironskin - One of the more powerful Tyrants under Greasus, Ghark and his Ironskin Tribe have close ties to the nearby Chaos Dwarfs, resulting in large numbers of Leadbelchers in their ranks. Ghark himself rides into battle on a great mechanical Rhinox, clad in blackened plate armour.

Skrag the Slaughterer - Skrag was a Slaughtermaster who screwed up when preparing a feast, and ended up being thrown into the Gorger-infested caves below his Tribe's mountain. He went psycho, hammered blades into his hand-stumps, terrified the Gorgers into submission/worship, and slaughtered his tribe, becoming the next prophet of the Great Maw.

Golgfag Maneater - Likely the most well-travelled mortal being in existence, Golgfag Maneater is a mercenary known, feared and respected around the globe. Recently he returned to the mountains of his birth for a recruiting drive of sorts, leaving at the head of his very own Ogre mercenary army.

Braugh Slavelord - Braugh was captured by a Necromancer early in his mercenary career, and ended up killing and eating his way out of the situation. The magic chains he attached to his gutplate forced those chained to him to remain in this world whether alive or dead, and he became the most terrifying slaver alive - dealing in both the broken living and restless dead.

Ogrog Crittercatcher - As his name indicates, Ogrog is a hunter par excellence, travelling the world to find, capture and beat into submission ever more dangerous and exotic beasts. He finds commission from zoos, fighting pits, nobles human and elf, Clan Moulder and Butchers eager for a different taste.

The Wendigo - A terrible white legend of the mountains. The Wendigo is said to be the coagulated spirits of every Ogre who has starved or frozen to death in the high mountains, the result of a cannibalistic slaughter of an Ogre tribe the day before a festival of the Maw, or even the very first Yhetee, sustained by the blood of the last Sky Titan.

Llanog of Many Names - A pitfighter who has brawled in maw-pit after maw-pit, frequented the gladiatorial arenas of elves light and dark, fought a gibbering beast of the dark woods for King Leoncouer's amusement, and engaged in honour-duels with more than half-a-dozen Nipponese sword-saints. The accolades just keep on stacking, and his Herald Gnoblar can hardly keep up.

Haugn Braingobbler - Haugn keeps ahead of the competition by being a connosieur among Butchers. Eskewing meat and marrow to focus on succulent grey matter instead, Haugn has been called a head-case by his fellows, but none can doubt the effectiveness of his magic. Brains hanging in jars from his flabby veined form, Haugn's ability to spit nightmares and furies directly into the minds of others makes him truly terrifying, but he doesn't let it go to his head.

Runtlord Jib - A Gnoblar formerly of the Lowlands, Jib was so incredibly cunning and vicious that, within months of his arrival, the Ogre Tribe he joined had self-destructed from his machinations, the only one left being his owner, Oglas. Jib now rides the broken Oglas into battle, a lord among Gnoblars, able to call upon the collective might of a thousand greenskinned midgets! More effective armies have been seen staggering from the pub late at night.

The Crawcannon - A vast cannon, looted or bought in Cathay or the Empire, or from the Chaos Dwarfs. The fact that its origins are unknown should speak volumes to its condition - patched with scrap, covered in gnoblar paint and dangling with talismans of the Maw, its barrel has been hammered and welded into a properly Maw-esque shape, and fires "cannonballs" of questionable quality and indeed sphericality at the massed ranks of the enemy.

AlmightyNocturnus
24-11-2009, 23:34
Revlid,

Don`t forget Gnoblar Billy Goat Riders as your extra Gnoblar unit. If you are going to add Rhinox Cavalry, then you need some Gnoblars imitating them!

Also, I`d say no light armor on Bulls but give all Ogres (that have them on the model) a 6+ gut plate save.

Almighty Nocturnus

Krom The Eternal
25-11-2009, 00:31
TOUGHER BULLS!!!! STRONGER IG!!!!!!! ARMORED GIANT!!!!!!

thats all i want improved haha

mdauben
25-11-2009, 01:23
5. Gut plates are a must to all ogres, 6+ saves

I have no problem with this, but at the same time who cares about a 6+ save... most of the attacks out there will just ignore it anyway...
Two reasons:


Makes units of Bulls a least a little less suseptable to S3 bow fire. Losing models before you even reach charge range is a big drawback to small, high cost units like OK.
Its a boost to the final armor save of several units. Bulls with light armor now become become 5+, Iron Guts with heavy armor now become 4+. Same with all the characters.

Krom The Eternal
25-11-2009, 01:29
True that Im with Mdauben on that it would make alot more sense personally i think OK character should be able to get a 2+ armor save to balance out the fact that if we play a mounted army like brets most mounted troops hvy armor mounted shield and barding they get a 2+ why shouldn't us ogres!!!! but back to the 6+ Gut plate I think this makes total sense and it would actually bring a whole lot of support to the army and bring us up a little on the underpowered scale

Shadowsinner
25-11-2009, 02:40
army rules:

all models get a 6+ As due to gut plates

Gluttonous Feasting: "a hungry group of ogres can be terrifying, as they devour their prey with greedy hands they see the enemies ranks as a buffet rather than an intimidating force"- Ogre ranks are a minimum of 3 wide. for every rank bonus an ogre unit receives, all enemy units engaged with them in close combat lose rank bonuses equal to the ogre units. (e.g., a unit of 3x3 ogres gains a +2 to rank bonuses and the opposing unit loses 2 to its maximum bonus.) In the event of multiple ogre units in the same combat, choose the unit with the highest rank bonus of the two.

bull charge: all ogre models that charge more than 4" away toward an enemy unit deal one impact hit each. the strength of this hit increases by 1 for each ogre behind the charging models as usual


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gut magic: all spells are known by each butcher. basic butchers may cast any two spells per turn. slaughter masters may cast 4. spells cast are automatically at bound level 3+ d6 (like tomb kings). each time a spell is cast the casting butcher must pass a toughness test. If failed they must roll on the butchers miscast chart.

spells:

1. 2d6 s3 magic missile

2. Remains in play: enemy unit within 18" takes a panic test. If the unit is immune to psychology the spell scrambles their minds leaving them mentally vulnerable once again. As a result the unit is affected by panic and psychology tests as if not immune to psyc.

3. bull gorger as normal

4. tooth cracker as normal

5. asf and able to move through terrain without penalty. Butcher must take an Initiative test, if failed the butcher and the unit he is with move and charge at half speed the following turn.

6. regeneration and 5+ ward save against enemy shooting. butcher takes a s4 hit

7. blood gruel as usual

8. magic resistance 2 and 5+ ward save against magical attacks or spells

tooth gnoblars: may be purchases in bulk and used after spell has been cast

power gnoblars may be purchased withing limit. power gnoblars add d6 to the cast spell after spell has been cast.

butchers cannot suffer miscast or gain irresistible power

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

New HEROS and LORDS options

add about 3-4 new characters including hunter and gnoblar mage

slaughter masters may be general and taken in 2k list

gnoblar frost mages: both lord and hero version: receive two personal lores they can choose from. lore of ice magic, and lore of mountains

hunters now act as a core choice but do not count toward core limit

gnoblar champion heroes

mounts: includes rhinox mount, rhinox chariot, or mawstone (super magic icon)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

core:

bulls and ironguts are cheaper with same stats. They can have armor options that include heavy armor for bulls and "royal armor" for ironguts (4+ armor) as well as shields. For an upgrade purchase, their toughness and Initiative can be increased. Ironguts gain these benefits but can upgrade weapon skill as well.

no limit to gnoblar units taken. can purchase banners and musiciathrown weapons can be fired from 2 ranks

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

special:

lead belchers do not take shooting penalties for multiple shotts and can fire each turn

rhinox chariot (includes one rhinox with one bull and 3 gnoblars) or can be scrap launcher for same price

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

rare:

gorgers are 1-2 per rare choice


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

that's a start any ways...

rhinox cavalry

hill9969
25-11-2009, 05:48
One thing that I recently thought of was to extend the Largely Insignificant rule so that shooting attacks are allowed to happen if only gnoblars are engaged against an enemy unit.

From the lore other gnoblars or Ogres wouldn't care if a gnoblar wasn't smart enough to move its head out of the way of a OK ranged attack.

Dooks Dizzo
25-11-2009, 17:16
Revlid, that is an outstanding body of work on the amended Ogre Kingdoms book! I am really impressed, I might have to start test playing...

Dooks Dizzo
25-11-2009, 17:54
One thing though, no Jhered the Red? I thought he would be an automatic choice for Hero level special character.

Revlid
25-11-2009, 18:35
Revlid, that is an outstanding body of work on the amended Ogre Kingdoms book! I am really impressed, I might have to start test playing...
Why thank you! I look forward to any results.


One thing though, no Jhered the Red? I thought he would be an automatic choice for Hero level special character.
I thought hard about my choice of Hunter special character, but ultimately went with Ogrog Crittercatcher for a number of reasons.

*Sabretusks are already a popular choice - a character who promotes their use could well be redundant.
*As a M7 combat monster covered in fur he overlaps a bit with the Wendigo.
*GW has a recent history of making up new characters to fit archetypes that already have potential fulfillers.
*Jhared is a "historical" character - he'd be long dead by now.
*I really wanted to stick that Reel-In Crossbow in somewhere.

My only desires now are to add a new Gnoblar unit (consistent with GW's adding of seemingly random new units), and mess around with the Gut Magic Lore (it doesn't need it, but change for change's sake seems to be the design philosophy the studio follows nowadays).

TheMav80
25-11-2009, 19:57
Make taking a champion worth it. I like the Maneater idea. Otherwise, look to the Skaven Rat Ogres. For a, relativly, small amount of points you get much more than just an extra attack. You get better WS and Ini as well.

Ogres won't get S5 all around. They already got rid of that on Kroxigors, I can't see them allowing Ogres a core choice running about at S7.

Dooks Dizzo
26-11-2009, 19:23
If I'm just wishlisting I'd like an all Maneater army to be possible :)

Dooks Dizzo
26-11-2009, 19:28
Rev, have you sent this off the GW? I am sure they'd change a lot of it but some of your base material is just gold.

kenG
27-11-2009, 03:24
Give maneaters the armed to the teeth rule that black orcs have for free. Also make the sword give them magical attacks, and they really should be tg 5, allow a champion who can take a 25 pt magic item.

I think that ogres just are not tough enough for their reputation, and either need scaly skin save, or an upgrade to their armor with the gut plate.

theunwantedbeing
27-11-2009, 03:32
1. No Rhinox as mounts anywhere
2. Gut plate as equiptment that grants the bull charge and a 6+ save
3. Slaughtermaster usable in 2k
4. Hunters made special or rare slots
5. Leadbelchers able to fire each turn, albeit balanced somehow
6. Big names not counting towards item allowance and being 1 per character
7. Cheaper points cost overall at the loest at least.
8. No Gnoblar character's, or cavalry

Basically.
A feel a bull should be able to have 4 armour piercing attacks and a 4+ save in combat, 5+ vs shooting for about 30pts a model. More like 23 or so with only 3st4 attacks and no save or bull charge ability.
Everything else should be an extension of that so costs will be cheaper.

Gut magic could do with being altered a bit, probably to be more in line with normal magic, so rolling for spells but they still keep their low casting values.

That would make the Ogre list a lot more interesting really.
At least I think so anyway.
I dont want loads of silly things.

chaos0xomega
27-11-2009, 03:55
I dont know why so many people are anti-rhinox, but its happening, so I suppose ya'll better get used to it.

Captain Cortez
27-11-2009, 04:09
I think OK should have a Rhinox riders they are in the fluff and pictures.

Knoblar war machines (not the scraplauncher)

raymon
27-11-2009, 04:48
Ogres are brawlers in my opinion, who do not care a hoot about standing in rank. Which Ogre allows himself to wait in line for the buffet behind another ogre? "The food" needs it, to have weight in numbers, Ogres already got the weight.

So we can not depend on static CR, so we need something we can depend upon. Since we go in a game of chance if we want to win combat. Which is a good thing, cause we are brawlers.

So we need dependable things like:
- Make the bull charge work with every charge... to end the meta-game of enemies running into the 6 inch minimum. "oh look, the ogres, lets stand closer to them so they are less dangerous"...that's odd logic.
- Gut plate that really protects the gut. 6+ armour
- Higher leadership, its low and i do not see why. Ogres need to fear nothing since its "food".
- The odd restrictions so other builds are possible. the slaughtermaster/tyrant, bulls/gnoblar, hunter/trapper... let us decide who we take to battle.
- Ogre bulls more able to gear up, like mini maneaters. To reflect there scavenging nature. pair of handguns anyone. Options for a pirate themed ogre army.
- point reduction of maneaters
- Iron Guts WS+1
- Leadbelchers cannon hit like a GW. Looks to me when you hit with a cannon, its slow, but hard. and that only one ogre gets his misfire result. its his cannon that explodes in his face. and maybe some odd rule about the smoke that spurts out of the barrel, giving cover or blocking line of sight.
- option to add some more dogs of war. To signify the fact that whole ogre families get hired by other races, to make a trade-route army. But this is more a personal wish then a tweak wish. Would like a trade-route assault scenario added to the book.

Fluff needs no change, but i would like to see some of the characters in the book fleshed out in special characters.

Onisuzume
27-11-2009, 13:38
I wonder if there might be any chance at all to see Dragon Ogres in it. xD
Yes, I know that they're unrelated in everything but name, but still.

Dooks Dizzo
02-12-2009, 02:32
Rav, in looking at your rules do you think Maneaters might be a bit over powered? Some of the combo's are pretty dran brutal. Great Weapons + the D3+3 attacks could be absolutly devastating. And how would it work with an extra hand weapon? D3+4?

Personally I love Maneaters, my favorite unit, so I am all for seeing them get a major boost. But I think the opportunity for abuse might be pretty high, especially with the boost that attachable characters give.

Fenrir
02-12-2009, 10:16
Revlid - outstanding work, Sir.

Shame that GW will probably come up with the most bizarre and unwanted changes to the army, whilst paying no attention to the sterling design that fans have come up with.

narrativium
02-12-2009, 11:05
Fenrir: which fans? There are a lot of wishlists out there. I like a lot of Revlid's suggestions, but not many of raymon's; Revlid seems to have adopted the attitude that units in an Ogre army could feel more mercenary or more piratey, and I don't have a problem with more pirate-themed Ogre armies appearing, but they're also a brutal mountain tribe army so I'm not sure the list should feel cunning. It should feel like a horde of monstrous warriors have just turned up to beat things up because they're there and because they're hungry, rather than for money.

Sadly, an MSU army is the better way to go with the army at the moment - because each Ogre is expensive, you want each one in combat, not sitting in a back rank which can't get CR anyway. You also get bait-and-flee tactics which don't suit Ogres much. And I agree, the 6"+ Bull Charge encourages opponents to put their units too close (but then, I find the same applies to anything I don't want to stand and shoot, like Flamers).

You seem pessimistic about GW's idea of changes to the army. So far, while I've seen a few themes people might like to adopt for an Ogre army, and a couple of army-wide rules (mostly, ditching the 6" Bull Charge limitation), most of the wishlist changes are for Ogre models to be more powerful, or cheaper (and usually both, which is contrary), or for specific units to have changes. I've seen very few suggestions which make the Ogre army feel more like an Ogre army.

I'm more optimistic about changes to the Ogre army, partly because the current attitude to army books seems to be giving armies more options and making them more competitive, and partly because the 6th Edition book was the first Ogre army book. Every other book has had several iterations to build on, whereas this is the first time the designers will get to look at the Ogre armies out there and how they're being played now and decide what to change.

Cain-asmodeus
03-12-2009, 06:51
I like to wish to see a Ogre Tyrant riding on top of a great Sand Wurm :p

he could either captured or raised a Sand Wurm when he reached the Great Maw, which could have spawned the creature, who knows the great maw could be a gigantic sand worm :p

to give a visual, it would be the size of 3 or 4 stories tall, looking somewhat like the "dune" series, or a much bigger version of "tremors". chains wrapping around the head of the maw, and the lord riding bare back :p

mistrmoon
03-12-2009, 07:13
They should have two lores I think. Gut Magic of the Maw and Ice Magic.

No Kislev has no shiny toys as is, you leave ice magic alone!

Also the fluff basically would reject this in every way possible, the ice magic is NOT one of the eight colors of the winds of chaos. It comes from the land of kislev itself and only the females in the tzars bloodline can use it.

narrativium
03-12-2009, 11:48
Most lores aren't one of the eight colours of the Winds of Chaos. And if memory serves, Gut Magic isn't a lore...

Be that as it may: what spells would there be in an Ice Magic list? (It's nice to have the option for more spells, but what does it bring to the army?)

chaos0xomega
03-12-2009, 12:36
You know, they could call it "The Lore of the Mountain" or somesuch, and have it be ice/wind/rock/earth themed magic, so that kislev's frozen toe's don't get trampled all over. Just cuz its Ice Magic doesn't mean it has to be the same.

oCoYoRoAoKo
03-12-2009, 13:03
I would like to see the following:

remove the silly restrictions on units
make gutplates a 6+ save
add rhynox riders as rare
bull charge on every charge
hunters made special with the option of buying more sabretusks (as an alternative to yhettis for a cavalry-ish unit)
some more character choices (a yhetti char?!)
tweak slavegiants somewhat to make them useful (especially as we are looking to have something like 4 rare choices)
a general points decrease across the board
Big names not use up magic item allowance

And now onto some more 'interesting' wishlisting:

A level 1 gnoblar shaman (tooth gnoblar?) and other gnoblar characters
different options for the scraplauncher (maybe a bolt thrower variant?)
some kind of large mountain beast (a war mammoth would be sweet)

Cy.