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View Full Version : Thinking ahead a little bit... what would you like to see from a new Eldar codex?



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Necro Angelo
17-11-2009, 13:16
With the recent Necron wishlisting, I can't help but think wht everyone wants to see in a new 5th edition eldar book. I'm actually of the mind that the current codex does'nt need changing too urgently, but I'm interested to see what everyone else thinks as Eldar are my only army... Here are some of my ideas:

-cost reduction on certain units (ahem swooping hawks, maybe wraithguard)
-vehicle upgrades need another look obviously, as one of them is now redundant (maybe return to the old spirit stones that ignore crew shaken on a 4+...?)
-return of the 3 shot star cannon;)
-phoenix lords should be able to have a retinue of 2-5 exarchs (from the respective aspect)
-maybe a CC variant of wraithguard?
-return of the solitaire, in general harlequins should have a more diverse rules set; troupe leader and shadowseer more expensive but more options/multiple wounds

Im actually not sure whether we need new psychic powers or aspect warriors (making a new aspect would be very difficult in terms of fluff).:rolleyes:

thoughts?

Onisuzume
17-11-2009, 13:26
Falcons/Prisms that aren't indestructable? ;)
Variant army lists? (Yeah, better ask FW for that)

And I don't think that adding another warrior aspect would be too difficult.
The ones we currently know are simply the more common ones.

PaddyF
17-11-2009, 13:29
You do know that in 5th ed Wave Serpents are generally more tough than Falcons/Prisms since when moving at high speed penetrating hits are not downgraded to glancing and instead you get a 4+ cover save?

Onisuzume
17-11-2009, 13:44
Ah smeg, add serpents to my list as well then.

Deetwo
17-11-2009, 14:36
Tone down Runes of Warding, Eldrad and bike councils.. :)
More Harlequin stuff, definitely.
Tweak some of the more crappy things like support weapons and swooping hawks. Also guardians could finally use a facelift, they barely see any play nowadays.

In any case, there's actually no serious issues in the current Eldar book.

Tethylis
17-11-2009, 14:42
Some better Autarch abilites for a start, +1 reserves is mediocre at best & strategy rating 4 :wtf:
All Shuriken Catapults should have 18" range, not just dire's. Guardian envy!
Pheonix lords should allow their aspects as troops. Never enough elites for these
Bring back the differant craftworld FOC list's. Why did they take them out?
Psykers that can nulify or can't be nulified. Best psykers in the galaxy lol
Force Weapons. Come on we are a psychic race
More harlequin options. Solitare HQ would be awesome
Grenades for storm guardians. Even orks can buy these!

Karhedron
17-11-2009, 14:47
Much of the codex just needs a slight polish to bring it into line with 5th edition. Certain units are priced as per their 4th edition efficiency and have taken a significan to hit to either survivability or firepower (or obth in the case of Falcons and Vypers). Also some units just never get taken which is an obvious sign tey are lacking.

Here is my list of things I would like to see.

Phoenix Lords. Give the lot of them a 4+ invulnerable save and allow them to take their own Aspect as Troops. For Asurmen allow him to make Aspect Warriors Scoring (not Troops) as he founded the whole path of the Warrior.

Make Vypers into a jetbike equivelent of attack bikes.

Make Swooping hawks worth taking, bring back their grenade pack special rules.

Make Wraithcannons 18" range.

Introduce assault Wraithguard (maybe armed with a pair of wraithswords?)

Fix Guardians! We have been living with Gav Thorpe's FUBAR since 3rd edition. Give them 4+ armour (they were always supposed to have better armour than IG) and a longer range gun (even if they have lower rate of fire). It does not make sense for a dying race to give their citizen militia tin-foil armour. Nor does it make sense to arm these militia with machine pistols. :rolleyes:

I realise that some of these buffs may require a price increase but not by much. Comnpare an Eldar Guardian to an IG and an Ork boy then tell me 8 points is the right price. :p

Kurisu313
17-11-2009, 15:01
New aspects.

All the new codices are putting out lots of new units (Thunderfire, Ironclad, LS storm, Russ variants, Valkyries, Artillery variants, Psykers, Thunderwolves, etc) and it would be nice to see that happen to the Eldar.

Thud
17-11-2009, 15:09
-Grenades.
-Point reduction for some of the poorer units to make them viable in competitive lists.

Those are the two things I really care about. Other than that, Karhedron's post is pretty good.

Lord Damocles
17-11-2009, 15:10
Some better Autarch abilites for a start, +1 reserves is mediocre at best & strategy rating 4 :wtf:
I have the best strategy rating in the game. But I demand MORE dammit!

Thud
17-11-2009, 15:13
I have the best strategy rating in the game. But I demand MORE dammit!

Yeah. Strategy Rating is brilliant. Such a useful ability! ;)

Tethylis
17-11-2009, 15:21
I have the best strategy rating in the game. But I demand MORE dammit!


Yeah. Strategy Rating is brilliant. Such a useful ability! ;)

Ok now am getting worried. Does strategy rating actually do anything? I thought it was one of those things that no longer existed, you know like our superior movement stat in 2nd ed! :eyebrows:

Lord Damocles
17-11-2009, 15:24
No, it doesn't do anything anymore. But that doesn't alter the fact that it wasn't a bad ability to have in 4th edition, and hardly makes the Autarch's abilities 'mediocre'.

+1 to reserves rolls (which stack!) is an amazing ability on it's own.

nightgant98c
17-11-2009, 15:27
More harlequin options. Solitare HQ would be awesome

Solitaire's would be a great addition, but they are not HQ's. No one even speaks to them. They should be elite if they are brought back.

Karhedron
17-11-2009, 15:28
Bring back the differant craftworld FOC list's. Why did they take them out?

Probably because they were kinda broken (I should know, I tried most of them :p). To be fair you can make pretty much any craftworld-themed army from the current list.

Iyanden: 10-man Wraithguard as Troops. Hellishly expensive (both in points and £££ but can be effective, see Thud's Wraithwall tactica).

Saim Hann: Jetbikes as Troops, no problems.

Alaitoc: Rangers/Pathfinders are Troops.

Ulthwe: Gaurdians and lots of psykers are easy

Biel Tan: You can fit every aspect into a single force org chart and lead with an Avatar or Autarch.

These are all fluffy lists which represent the craftworld they are based on. The problem with the old Craftworld lists was that they gave significant bonuses (BS4 Guardians, disruption table) or powerful units (Seer Council, Wraithlords as Troops) simply for leaving some other toys at home. With the rise of strongly themed and min-maxed lists (rather than everyone fielding a balanced mixed force as the Devs naively intended) these limitations were no limit at all.

GW decided to move away from that style of list. The current trend is to use special characters to access unique formations however this came about after the current Eldar codex was written. My guess is that any new codex will continue that trend. For example, perhaps taking Eldrad will allow you access to something resembling the old Seer Council.

Poseidal
17-11-2009, 15:35
18" Shuriken Catapults.

And while I'm here... Hero Exarchs (ie not sergeant Exarchs), Aspect and Guardian Armour brought back to it's relative protection from 1st edition (all other armour types improved with no explanation between editions), Expensive Farseers and Avatars, Menshad Korum, some more tank variants will be nice, holofield put in line with all other holofields in the game, worthwhile Vypers, Eldar Pirates...

shabbadoo
17-11-2009, 15:35
There is not too much I would like to see. I think the current codex is fairly decent for the most part. Mostly just some minor tweaks needed:

*Ditch the Autarch and put back in the Eldar Prince. Either that or actually give the Autarch *its own unique wargear options related to their path*, rather than just a hodge-podge of Aspect Warrior equipment(which I find rather lame).

*Make the weapon platform optional for Guardian squads.

*Give Storm Guardians assault grenades as part of their basic equipment load-out.

*Range 18" for Shuriken Catapults.

Plastic Miniatures(in order of precedence):

*Jet Bike Squad Sprue(3 bikes per sprue set, including bits for a Warlock)

*Wraithguard(one sprue set of 5, plus a Wraithseer)

*Support Weapon platform(all weapon options on the sprue)

*Storm Guardians(all unit options, including bits for a Warlock)

*Swooping Hawks(anything top-heavy needs the plastic treatment more than anything else; 5 Swooping Hawks plus Exarch)

I would love to see more Aspect Warriors or even a Warlock squad in plastic, but I think the above 5 units need the plastic treatment the most, and 5 full sets is quite a bit already. Eldar really do have a ton of units that still need plastic treatment.

Whitehorn
17-11-2009, 15:36
Options for Harlequin-only forces, bringing back the full roster.

NightrawenII
17-11-2009, 16:14
What everyone said:angel:
+
Make Scorpions and Banshees more different in terms of functionality.

noobzilla
17-11-2009, 16:22
I wouldn't. Eldar SHOULD NOT get a new codex before Necrons and Dark Eldar... and probably won't. There is nothing wrong with the 4th Edition codex, and I'm pretty sure that GW sees this.

Karhedron
17-11-2009, 16:37
I wouldn't. Eldar SHOULD NOT get a new codex before Necrons and Dark Eldar... and probably won't. There is nothing wrong with the 4th Edition codex, and I'm pretty sure that GW sees this.

Please define what you mean by "should". GW is a market driven company, they redo armies based partially on sales and popularity and partially on the ideas bouncing around the design studio. There is no roster saying army X is older than army Y so needs to be done first.

badguyshaveallthefun
17-11-2009, 17:12
I think that they should remove the option for Farseers to have bikes, and create a new unit entry for jetlocks, lowering the max unit size, and limiting the amount of destructor powers that can be taken. I would like to see this done across all the codex's (Nob bikers anyone?) as I want to see a return to more infatry based armies, with biker armies being more rare/reserved for the specialty lists (Saim-Hann, Ravenwing, White Scars, etc...).
I would like to see some kind of vehicle Aspect Warrior. Some kind of upgrade for all vehicles that will allow them to be BS4, possible give them the ability to downgrade stunned to shaken, and maybe some kind of once per game ability to ignore a stunned/shaken result altogether, representing their superior training. Just an idea.

etancross
17-11-2009, 17:30
I think that they should remove the option for Farseers to have bikes, and create a new unit entry for jetlocks, lowering the max unit size, and limiting the amount of destructor powers that can be taken. I would like to see this done across all the codex's (Nob bikers anyone?) as I want to see a return to more infatry based armies, with biker armies being more rare/reserved for the specialty lists (Saim-Hann, Ravenwing, White Scars, etc...).
I would like to see some kind of vehicle Aspect Warrior. Some kind of upgrade for all vehicles that will allow them to be BS4, possible give them the ability to downgrade stunned to shaken, and maybe some kind of once per game ability to ignore a stunned/shaken result altogether, representing their superior training. Just an idea.

Yea but doing that would effectively be killing off certain armies, a jetbike farseer and seer council aren't that powerful, I play one all the time and it almost makes me laugh to hear try and make that mountain into a mole hill.

Plus people saying Falcon/Prisms are indestructible? I hope that was a joke that i just didn't get because its FAAAR from true.

pom134
17-11-2009, 17:51
Yea but doing that would effectively be killing off certain armies, a jetbike farseer and seer council aren't that powerful, I play one all the time and it almost makes me laugh to hear try and make that mountain into a mole hill.

Plus people saying Falcon/Prisms are indestructible? I hope that was a joke that i just didn't get because its FAAAR from true.

Sigh. Math.

A falcon with holofields moving under 12" is slightly harder to kill with a lascannon than a land raider.

A falcon with holofields moving under 12" is just as hard to kill with a meltagun under 6" as a land raider.

Indestructible? No. Frustratingly hard to kill for something that can automatically make an objective based game impossible for you to win? Yes.



Holofields need to be fixed. Our group has come to the concensus that they should NOT work in close combat. That would make Eldar players less cavalier with the placement of falcons and make the last turn objective contest ******** a little less overpowered. Plus you already have the ability to make close combat attacks hit on 6's. No need to make powerfist attacks have ~1% chance to kill the damn things.

\/\/raithlord
17-11-2009, 18:27
Sigh. Math.

A falcon with holofields moving under 12" is slightly harder to kill with a lascannon than a land raider.

A falcon with holofields moving under 12" is just as hard to kill with a meltagun under 6" as a land raider.

Indestructible? No. Frustratingly hard to kill for something that can automatically make an objective based game impossible for you to win? Yes.


Erm, that's not actually maths, just you telling us that they're as hard to kill as Land Raiders.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're lying, but I'd like to see some math to laugh at and go "Oh Yeah!" if anyone has it.
Initial reactions seem like the AV 12 Falcon is far easier to penetrate, as it doesn't get the 4+ save for moving between 12"-18", but has the advantage of Holo-Fields. Is it just to do with the roll on the holo-field table?

On a more 'contributing' point, I feel the Swooping Hawks should be given slightly better guns, becoming AP 4, maybe add/or Strength 4.
At the moment it looks like a unit they designed to put on the board for us to say, "Now they're here, Now they're not! Now they're here, Now they're not!" as they lay Str4 Ordnance templates a la "Skyleap".
Are the Craftworlds arming their elites with slightly improved (Assault) Lasguns? With their poor toughness and mediocre armour save, they're hardly likely to stand up to anything more than generic Guardsmen in a brief firefight.

Sildani
17-11-2009, 18:35
*Swooping Hawks(anything top-heavy needs the plastic treatment more than anything else; 5 Swooping Hawks plus Exarch)



By this logic, the Fire Prism wins hands down. And it should - it's horrible to build. Spent an hour filing mold seams off the metal parts. And that's the good one I had!

What I would like:

-New plastic jetbike with Warlock/Farseer torso right on the sprue.
-Plastic Wraithguard with an option to take 2 CCWs. Nothing special.
-Autarch counts the squad he's attached to as scoring, no matter where that squad came from in the FOC.
--Plastic Autarch kit with all options and a female torso/head. Sculpted by Juan Diaz! Hey, a kid can dream...
-Shining Spears' lances count as power weapons at all times.
-Bright lances get AP 1.
-Dark Reapers ignore LOS to fire, thanks to their targeting vanes. Note that they DO NOT ignore cover saves.
-Phoenix Lords get a blanket 5+ invulnerable save, and count a squad of their Aspect as scoring. Jain Zar confers Furious Charge to her squad, Fuegan gives Crack Shot to his, Baharroth and his squad do not Scatter when Deep Striking.
--New Jain Zar model. Please!
-Farseers can "force" their powers to work, no matter what, on a 4+ after their successful Psychic Test to cast said power. More expensive. Eldrad does it on a 3+.
-Fire Prisms get their Crystal Targeting Matrix back, which allows their prism cannon to ignore the firing rules for blast weapons and instead rolls to hit using BS.
--Redesigned plastic model.
-Swooping Hawk Exarchs can purchase a power to mitigate Deep Strike scatter to 1d6" and a re-roll on the Mishap Table. Lasblasters get Str 4.

So far that's four new plastics. It might be possible to do a "plastic HQ" set, which would give you a base male and female armored body, with bits of Autarch gear and rune armor robes and capes for Farseers.

I have other ideas, if anyone cares, I'll post them.

etancross
17-11-2009, 19:02
Sigh. Math.

A falcon with holofields moving under 12" is slightly harder to kill with a lascannon than a land raider.

A falcon with holofields moving under 12" is just as hard to kill with a meltagun under 6" as a land raider.



This is the DUMBEST thing ive seen on these forums in quite sometime, you trying to say an armor 12 vehicles is harder to take down than an armor 14 vehicles and then say the reason is math and then show no math?

You might as well said its harder to take down because of lube.... that doesn't make sense either.

The Anarchist
17-11-2009, 19:03
As long as we see plastic bikers I'm pretty happy, if these include a warlock or autarch torso i would be really happy.

otherwise theres nothing stunningly bad about the Eldar, few little tweaks and not even that many models and re-release is done. I'm kinda surprised GW havn't done it already considering how easy Eldar would be to redo. after all most of their models are stunning at present so not much needed.

etancross
17-11-2009, 19:06
if we kept the same things and just got a few price adjustments, I would be really happy with that.

the1stpip
17-11-2009, 20:51
Some of these ideas are just ludicrous.

Unnullifable psychic powers. Yes, lets re-ignite the arms race.Everyone else then starts whinging about wanting better psychioc powers. Eldar have always been about improving their units, not direct damage.

Removal of annoying invulnerability shields on skimmers.

Wraithcannons do not need the extra range, they are short range and deadly. Increasing their range would seriously overpower them.

Other than that, a lot of what has been said is good, and will go to improve them. I agree with Phoenix Lords changing the FOC, Guardians need buffing, but I don't think they need more Aspect Warriors, you need to find a niche for them, that is the difficult part.

Necro Angelo
17-11-2009, 21:20
I have other ideas, if anyone cares, I'll post them.

Please do.

(its uncanny, I had exactly the same idea as you on the wraithguard with two wraithswords):D

pom134
17-11-2009, 22:06
Sigh. Ok lazy.

SM with LC vs Falcon

2/3 hit * 1/2 penetrate * 1/9 kill = 3.6% chance with one lascannon shot. Where did I get 1/9? only 4 results on 2 d6 get the kill: 5,5 5,6 6,5 6,6. There are 36 possible results (I'm not going to list them). 4/36 = 1/9

SM with LC vs Land Raider

2/3 hit, 1/6 penetrate, 1/3 kill = 3.7% with one lascannon shot.

I ignored glancing hits because they can't die from that.


Now if the falcon goes over 12" the calculation changes considerable because it gets a cover save but also results of a 4 will kill it because over 12" means immobilized results count as wrecked. It comes out to 4.1% if I'm correct. Yes, there is MORE chance to kill it if you give yourself a cover save.

Meltas are different as well because of the 2d6 penetration but again, if I remember correctly, they both come out to about 11% if you are under 6". Over 6" advantage Landraider because it can't be penetrated. Glancing hits CAN kill, but I choose to ignore it. Pretty insignificant on the Falcon because you need double 6's which is 1/36. Chances are way under 1%.

Happy? Next time do the math before you tell me it doesn't make sense.

noobzilla
17-11-2009, 22:15
Please define what you mean by "should". GW is a market driven company, they redo armies based partially on sales and popularity and partially on the ideas bouncing around the design studio. There is no roster saying army X is older than army Y so needs to be done first.

They shouldn't get an update because their is nothing wrong with their codex at all. Yes, some options are bad choices but thats the same with ANY codex. Necrons would sell well if they had an update, I know plenty of Necron players. Dark Eldar... not so much, but Dark Eldar and Necrons need an update based on rules wise, and yes I know thats not how GW does business, but even thought I don't play those armies (IG FTW) I wish to see them redone.

Cognitave
17-11-2009, 22:19
Hey Pom, check your math again. It's a bit off.

And see Noobzilla's signature as well.

noobzilla
17-11-2009, 22:33
Hey Pom, check your math again. It's a bit off.

And see Noobzilla's signature as well.

Such a great line man. :)

Zaonite
17-11-2009, 22:38
Been playing Eldar now for 4 years. My short wishlist.

-Plastic Prism Cannon
--- Bring back Crystal Targeting Matrix as mentioned by Sildani
-Plastic Aspect Warriors and Storm Guardians with all options in the book available to model!
-Have Squad Leaders instead of an Exarch, this idea has been tossed around by Hellebore and I agree with him.
-Phoenix Lords alter FOC and make their aspect scoring units.
-Give Wraithguard two wounds!! Keep points the same.
-Increase the range on all shuricats by 6"
-Release the new sculpt of that teaser jetbike we saw a million years ago!

-I personally would like to see some rules for Bonesingers.
-Bring in the Star Eagles aspect to improve tank shooting abilities. I.e. Increase BS or allow to shoot while moving more than 12".
-Something to force the powers through against a psychic hood and similar things (thanks to Sildani again)
-Also broaden the harlequins slightly. And add the older exploding shrieker cannon rounds for the Death Jester.

That's all I can think of for now...

Wednesday Friday Addams
17-11-2009, 22:40
Just as long as this is wishlisting I would really like to see an eldar interceptor plastic release.

Brady
17-11-2009, 22:45
It all seems fine at the mo but if anything id like to see phoenix lords with invulnerable save and make one unit of that aspect troops

Karhedron
17-11-2009, 22:48
I think that they should remove the option for Farseers to have bikes, and create a new unit entry for jetlocks, lowering the max unit size, and limiting the amount of destructor powers that can be taken. I would like to see this done across all the codex's (Nob bikers anyone?) as I want to see a return to more infatry based armies, with biker armies being more rare/reserved for the specialty lists (Saim-Hann, Ravenwing, White Scars, etc...).
Ach, please no! :( I cannot think of anything more boring that everyone being forced to play infantry lists. If someone wants to play bikers, let them get all hells angels. What I would like is to ensure that infantry, mech, biker and mixed are all evenly balanced in terms of power (which is the hard part).


I would like to see some kind of vehicle Aspect Warrior. Some kind of upgrade for all vehicles that will allow them to be BS4.

Star Eagles have been mentioned in the fluff as being a pilot aspect so they would be perfect for this idea.

kardar233
17-11-2009, 23:03
Also, Falcons can take Vectored Engines which make sure they don't die from Immobilization if they moved more than 12". However, this doesn't really make a difference as they lose quite a bit of durability from not being able to move.

Rant
17-11-2009, 23:11
I'd love to see a 4+ inv save on the phoenix lords. I'd also like to see them be able to take a retinue of exarchs and turn their aspect warrior scoring or some such (Give Asurmen a price break since he really needs one).

I'd love to see some grenades on guardians and a bonafide lay down in stone that the banshee mask works to negate cover.

The prices across the board need to be re-worked. Many of the aspect warriors are overpriced as well considering their very limited focus.

I would LOVE to see craftworld lists again. I miss that very much.

New psychic powers or just make runes of warding making all psychic powers unstoppable would be great. I mean hell, Warlocks can whip off their psychic powers no matter what but Farseers (The stronger psyker) cannot? That makes sense... in some reality I guess.

Vaktathi
17-11-2009, 23:24
What I'd like to see?

More useful Guardian, not necessarily through better stats or gear but maybe cool deployment/movement rules?

Remove Holofields as they exist now. They are still a wee bit much and don't really make sense given the description of the wargear, which should make them harder to hit, not harder to hurt. Perhaps changing it to -1 BS or rerolling successful hits, or a constant 5+ cover save/3+ if moving fast?

Reduce cost on Wave Serpents by 25pts.

Dumb down Eldrad or make him more expensive. As is, he's a crutch and no-brainer for too many armies.

Increase Starcannon shots to 3 again but reduce availability. Make them more useful, but not available on everything.

Slight cost reduction on Bright Lances

reduce Vyper cost

Drop wraithguard cost by 5pts (they don't need two wounds, really they don't, they are already hard enough to kill as is when properly supported) and allow them to be Troops with 5 models, not just 10.

Phoenix Lords should allow various aspects as Troops.


Those are my largest complaints.


Farseers psychic abilities really are fine as is, they don't need to be unnullfiable or any better, that's generally an indication you are over-relying on them if you find this to be needed.

Lyonator
17-11-2009, 23:43
For sure I want the CTM back.
That vehicle upgrade was why I first started playing Eldar (Siam Hann, vyper heavy) and then why I stopped (Vypers are trash without them)

Other than that, randomly deciding to give Eldrad T4 was a dumb idea.
(though I agree with Vak on the Serpent being overcosted)

Zaonite
17-11-2009, 23:51
Eldrad with T4 suits the fluff as he's an ancient Farseer.
In the fluff it says they tend to crystallise in old age, that's why he's so hard :D

Sorros
17-11-2009, 23:55
Make a brightlance better or lower the cost.

Make Guardians less crappy/contradicting (2-shot pistols with a long range heavy weapon? What?)

Make Swooping Hawks lower in cost or give them better weapons/nades

Make Vypers better

Give Falcons BS4, I don't care if it becomes more expensive. Why does the main Eldar battle tank fire as badly as a guardsman?

Give brightlances viable platforms...the ONLY option for a BS4 lance is a wraithlord...why am I paying 45 points for this?

Vaktathi
18-11-2009, 00:00
Give Falcons BS4, I don't care if it becomes more expensive. Why does the main Eldar battle tank fire as badly as a guardsman? Because it's not the main Eldar battle tank? It's a transport gunship crewed by the Eldar equivalent of guardsmen.

The main Eldar battle tanks (Fire Prism) *is* BS4.

Thornz
18-11-2009, 00:06
I would love them to fix/nerf Holofields. ATM they are just silly.

Up the points cost of a Swordlord

Up the points cost of Fire Dragons to ~20pts.

Make the Avatar Tougher

Give guardians a good boost.

Reduce the cost of warpspiders.

Ganymene
18-11-2009, 00:16
Okay, I guess I'll get into this.

Army wide changes

Overall everything should be more expensive, but get upgrades. Eldar should be a small elite army where every casualty matters.

All Eldar (not Wraith) units are Fleet.

Exarchs have 2W, all other stats remain the same. This would keep them below Autarchs.

Crystal Targeting Matrix option for all vehicles, +1BS.

Bright Lances AP1, add a Multi-Melta equivalent (masters of fusion technology, but not over 12"? :wtf:), Starcannons need a point drop (but not 3 shots), everything else is fine

Assault weapons on vehicles count as defensive

HQ

Farseers should be able to use two powers standard and three with Spirit Stones. More Psychic Powers! I think that we should get to choose from 'packages' of psychic powers. One set of powers is offensive, one set is defensive, one set is support, etc. Point increase.

Autarchs are fine how they are (maybe +1S?). If you take an Autarch, one squad of Aspect Warriors can be taken as a Troops choice.

Avatar is good, give every Aspect Warrior within 12" Furious Charge. Point increase.

Phoenix Lords need invulnerable saves, but that is about it. Add a Phoenix Lord for every Aspect (it drives me crazy that there are missing Phoenix Lords)

Yriel is fine.

Eldrad could use a point increase.

Elite

Most of these are fine as they are.

Fire Dragons need a way to avoid getting toasted when they Melta Bomb a vehicle.

I disagree with a close combat Wraithguard squad, that would be too much. Wraithguard are fine with just Wraithcannons, they should remain exactly how they are right now. Leave the chopping to the Aspect Warriors. They do need a plastic kit.

I'd like to see the Solitaire make an appearance, but I really doubt that he ever will.

Don't know how I would fix Harlequins.

Troops

Guardians could use an 18" Catapult, maybe a points reduction also?

Dire Avengers should have an 18" Assault 3 weapon. Give them pistols and close combat weapons also. Point increase.

Move Swooping Hawks here. I think that with their weapons and abilities, they are much more suited for a Troops slot. Only drop them a couple of points now that they can score. Make Haywire Grenades useful (AP1?).

Ranger/Pathfinders BS5.

Fast Attack

Warp Spiders are fine as they are now, need a plastic kit.

Shining Spears need an extra attack, make their under-slung Catapults count as a pistol.

If Swooping Hawks are moved, we need another Aspect here.

Vypers not open-topped


Heavy Support

Give us another Heavy Support Aspect Squad. I'd like to see a very tough Aspect. 2+Sv, lose Fleet, max squad 5, wrecking ball unit, expensive.

Dark Reapers need help with cover.

Wraithlord WS5 BS5 A3, point increase.





Those are my thoughts. Overall I think most things should get buffed and cost more points. I don't think that we should be putting more models on the table, I think the models that we do put down should be more useful.

Clearly all of this would need playtesting.

Arakanis
18-11-2009, 01:13
For sure I want the CTM back.
That vehicle upgrade was why I first started playing Eldar (Siam Hann, vyper heavy) and then why I stopped (Vypers are trash without them) yes please.



Other than that, randomly deciding to give Eldrad T4 was a dumb idea.
(though I agree with Vak on the Serpent being overcosted)
Nah. All Farseers used to be T4. In fact, they probably should be again.

Oh, I'm gonna say this. 2nd Ed Exarchs. The current Exarchs are joke. We really need real Exarchs back.

Warlocks should be more killy, (It's weird that they aren't)

Autarchs should be relegated to a support role or replaced by Eldar Princes (such a more appropriately thematic idea.)

Potentially High Exarchs (Menshad Korum) could be added.

I'm gonna get some flak for this but here goes. Relegate Phoenix Lords to Apocalypse. Make them ungodly strong, but it leaves more room for other HQ types in the Codex.

Avatar needs a HUGE boost. I'd say put him on par with buffed out Bloodthirsters.

...Eldar have no medics. I find this to be strange and bizarre. Something, even a warlock power would make sense here.

Eldar also have NO anti-daemon weapons. Why ever not? That makes no sense at all. They've been fighting them basically forever.

Harlequins could have an expanded role? Maybe?

Vehicle Aspects, yes.
Buffed Shuriken Catapults, yes.
Better Guardians, yes.
Holofield reduction... no. I think that Eldar vehicles SHOULD be hard to kill. They're not the stupid pants on head invulnerable they were in 4th, they're just about right now.

Something needs to be done about the fact that we can't move and fire our guns. That's completely illogical.

Vyper should be redone as a two-man Jetbike.

Expanded psyker power and warlock power list. Unstoppable Force ability?

Force Weapons.... we should have some of those.

Improved Warlock HQ choice? I liked this in Dawn of War 2, and supposedly by the fluff Warlocks lead the Eldar to battle. Sooo... yeah.


I've been spending ridiculous amounts of time expanding the Eldar race with extra aspects, weapons, abilities, etc. Granted, that's all fan stuff, but I've got me some ideas.

pom134
18-11-2009, 02:17
Hey Pom, check your math again. It's a bit off.

And see Noobzilla's signature as well.

What's wrong with it?

and 40k is FAR from balanced. VERY far.

Cognitave
18-11-2009, 02:55
What's wrong with it?

and 40k is FAR from balanced. VERY far.

Check your decimals, they're off. And far enough to refute your point.

Back for the list...S4 autarchs. Seriously, it would go a long way to help improve their impact. I like the unstoppable force. We have the most powerful psykers in the known universe, yet they're still underwhelming when it comes to ability.

Also, if the Holo-Field ability didn't work in close combat, I'd accept that. Shooting, it makes the vehicle durable, but anti-tank fire can still kill it (It's called melta edition for a reason, guys...).

Warlocks need A2 I5. Seriously, they're above your average soldier for a reason. I can understand WS4 BS4, but they need to live up to their fearsome reputation in close combat. I can also understand how they're lesser psykers, but destructor needs a bit of a tweaking. Perhaps an alternate firing mode that's S4 AP3 18" range?

That's just off the top of my head. I still think the Farseer needs the ability to decide between the standard witchblade mode, or use it as a force weapon (standard restrictions and stuff).

pom134
18-11-2009, 04:01
right. 0.1% refutes my point. holofields are too good.

Arakanis
18-11-2009, 04:03
Back for the list...S4 autarchs. Seriously, it would go a long way to help improve their impact. I like the unstoppable force. We have the most powerful psykers in the known universe, yet they're still underwhelming when it comes to ability. I really do think that Autarchs should be replaced by the whole Prince concept. Or maybe High Exarchs. It's so much more impressive than the Autarch.



Also, if the Holo-Field ability didn't work in close combat, I'd accept that. Shooting, it makes the vehicle durable, but anti-tank fire can still kill it (It's called melta edition for a reason, guys...).
That'd be fair enough I think.



Warlocks need A2 I5. Seriously, they're above your average soldier for a reason. I can understand WS4 BS4, but they need to live up to their fearsome reputation in close combat. I can also understand how they're lesser psykers, but destructor needs a bit of a tweaking. Perhaps an alternate firing mode that's S4 AP3 18" range?
Yeah. Well, I mean, it's not even that Warlocks are LESSER Psykers, I believe fluff puts them on par with Librarians (They're much more focused however) it's merely that compared to the best Psykers ever (Farseers) They don't look like much. But yeah, something a little more powerful and direct that Destructor would be cool. And they should be more martially inclined. I really wish you could just have them lead any squad. I mean, they've been Aspect Warriors before, why can they fight along side, say, Scorpions?



That's just off the top of my head. I still think the Farseer needs the ability to decide between the standard witchblade mode, or use it as a force weapon (standard restrictions and stuff). That would be pretty cool. Then again, I mean, he gets one attack. (two with a pistol) Would it be horrible if he had a wounds on 2+ force weapon? Would it really be all that bad?

big squig
18-11-2009, 04:22
I'd like to see the exarch powers lumped together in one list and let exarchs take two of your choice.

Arakanis
18-11-2009, 04:27
I'd like to see the exarch powers lumped together in one list and let exarchs take two of your choice.

Oh, the Olden Days. Yes, yes. I loved that.

Cognitave
18-11-2009, 06:06
right. 0.1% refutes my point. holofields are too good.

Well your point was that it is slightly harder to kill, which it isn't. It is as hard to kill as a landraider with a lascannon. Which, again, is a stupid sentiment because using a lascannon for either of those is like trying to cut down a tree with a sharp rock. It'll get the job done eventually, but take a huge amount of time and effort to do so. But if it gets melta-gunned, it's a different story. There's a reason why it's called "Melta Edition", mate. You were just using an inferior weapon.

I'll do the math later, I just worked 2 back to back shifts and can't get it right now D:

noobzilla
18-11-2009, 06:11
Well your point was that it is slightly harder to kill, which it isn't. It is as hard to kill as a landraider with a lascannon. Which, again, is a stupid sentiment because using a lascannon for either of those is like trying to cut down a tree with a sharp rock. It'll get the job done eventually, but take a huge amount of time and effort to do so. But if it gets melta-gunned, it's a different story. There's a reason why it's called "Melta Edition", mate. You were just using an inferior weapon.

That is unless your opponent has super human dice abilities and frequently rolls "6" to hit, "6" to pend, and "6" on the damage chart. Grr... his inferior lascannons are so dangerous because hes great at rolling dice! :P

Cognitave
18-11-2009, 06:20
That is unless your opponent has super human dice abilities and frequently rolls "6" to hit, "6" to pend, and "6" on the damage chart. Grr... his inferior lascannons are so dangerous because hes great at rolling dice! :P

This. No matter how hard we try to do the math and stuff, you cannot rationalize random.

Kriegfreak
18-11-2009, 06:21
There is not too much I would like to see. I think the current codex is fairly decent for the most part. Mostly just some minor tweaks needed:

*Ditch the Autarch and put back in the Eldar Prince. Either that or actually give the Autarch *its own unique wargear options related to their path*, rather than just a hodge-podge of Aspect Warrior equipment(which I find rather lame).

*Make the weapon platform optional for Guardian squads.

*Give Storm Guardians assault grenades as part of their basic equipment load-out.

*Range 18" for Shuriken Catapults.

Plastic Miniatures(in order of precedence):

*Jet Bike Squad Sprue(3 bikes per sprue set, including bits for a Warlock)

*Wraithguard(one sprue set of 5, plus a Wraithseer)

*Support Weapon platform(all weapon options on the sprue)

*Storm Guardians(all unit options, including bits for a Warlock)

*Swooping Hawks(anything top-heavy needs the plastic treatment more than anything else; 5 Swooping Hawks plus Exarch)

I would love to see more Aspect Warriors or even a Warlock squad in plastic, but I think the above 5 units need the plastic treatment the most, and 5 full sets is quite a bit already. Eldar really do have a ton of units that still need plastic treatment.

I was reading, but stopped right here. Exactly my thoughts - especially the models.

I'd love to see a Farseer plastic HQ box similar to the space marine commander box set. It would give you the option of building a Farseer/Autarch or perhaps both. Loaded with bits only available to that set.

New plastic Fire Prism

I'd like to see a tone down in Council Bike squads, as I think others mentioned.

Another aspect would be nice, shouldn't of have been hard to do when they released the codex.

Cosmic_Girl
18-11-2009, 07:50
Hi,

Farseers - I could live with toughness 3 seers, remember, toughness 4 base makes them 5 on a bike with 3+/4+ re-roll. That's pretty harsh on a turbo boosting model with a strength 9/2+ wound weapon. Someone mentioned giving them a force weapon option that wounds on 2's? You must be kidding right? As for the psychic powers thing, I can see the argument for 2 powers base, 3 if spirit stones, but that seems overpowering without a significant pts increase. Remember you'd also want to buy 3 powers to make use of that ability. How expensive do you want to make your farseers? I think Runes of Witnessing should make the power impossible to nullify if the total of the 3 dice is less than 7 perhaps?

Avatar - immunity to plasma weapons (the apoc Avatar has it) although this makes him VERY hard to kill...I wouldn't like to see him made overtly powerful like a blood thirster, but rather confer benefits to other Eldar. The fearlessness is good, maybe if he's in combat all Eldar within 12" gain Furious Charge?

Autarch - "Master Strategist" needs to be brought in line with 5th. +1 to the roll to determine deployment zones/first turn, and reserves benefit (re-roll outflank rolls perhaps?)/hold back enemy reserves. Otherwise I think they're okay. Any unit they accompany becomes scoring.

Phoenix Lords - Their Aspect becomes Scoring (not taken as troops, no one wants to see 9 units of dark reapers in an army). 5+ invulnerable. They're all very expensive for their abilities. It would be nice to see more synergy between them and their aspects. Maugan Ra confers night fight or relentless for instance, Jain Zar gives furious charge, Baharroth - no scatter, enter play on an turn etc...

2nd Ed Exarchs were ridiculous, don't bring back hero hammer. If you want someone who can buy a variety of weapons and can benefit from exarch powers, take the autarch. He can't carry the different powers around with him, but he should always be with a squad anyway since nothing survives on its own these days.

Wraithguard - perhaps a close combat version? power weapon with assault shield?

I like Harlequins as in. I'd like to see a Harlequin army brought in, but I can't see it happening.

Guardians - 5-10 squad size, 4+ save, give the current 12" range shuricat to Guardian storm with the option to swap for ccw and pistol and give Defenders an 18" assault version or 24" rapid fire.

Hawks - need an increase. Their direct competition for inclusion into most lists (warp spiders) are almost always taken over them. Give them something that brings them on par.

Spears - pts decrease or allow the spear to be strength 6 power weapon at all times. Skilled Rider as standard.

Vyper - needs a boost.

Support Platforms - increase range or hitting power.

Holo-fields - no function in CC.

A note on the Falcon - as some pointed out, yes it is ~equally survivable to an LR against particular weapons, but in general is more vulnerable as it is more vulnerable to a wider spread of weapons. A vaccum comparison like that against a single weapon is no comparison at all. Ask a Tyranid player which he'd prefer to try and take down, he's going to pick the Falcon any day because its vulnerable to almost everything in his army, whereas only his monsters or focused warp blast stand a chance vs the LR and if he's close enough to use either of those its already too late to stop it.

Dark Reapers - maybe crack shot can give -1 to enemy cover saves for the entire unit, instead of allowing the exarch to ignore them. Obviously it would have to lose the re-roll to wound ability for it to be a balanced power. Fast shot would remain an Exarch only power.

General wish listing - Eldar vehicles can buy an aspect warrior crew as an upgrade. Confers Skilled Rider, +1 BS, vehicle can always fire one more weapon that it normally would be able (unless it moves flat out), something along those lines.

Bonesinger - Can cast a warlock power on a wraith unit or any vehicle. On a wraith unit it confers Feel No Pain, on a vehicle it allows vehicle repair of weapon destroyed or immobilised, otherwise it would be a standard warlock.

Introduce the aspects we always hear about. Introduce new Phoenix Lords for the aspects we currently don't have phoenix lords for.

Bring back Craftworld specific army lists. I think this can be done without overpowering them and would make the army much more diverse and interesting to play.

C-girl.

Faeslayer
18-11-2009, 08:22
Harlequins harlequins harlequins. A whole list, or a Great Harlequin HQ that makes Troupes count as... er, troops, and Death Jesters that make sense (that aren't attachments to troupes!). And maybe Harlie jetbikes.

Basically I want what everyone wants: more harlequin stuff!

Deetwo
18-11-2009, 08:53
I could see some simple upgrade options for the current Codex to make a pretty decent Harlequin force.. Ofcourse Solitaires would be missing though, which would need to be added to Elites.

Autarch (or Eldar Prince) -> Great Harlequin
Farseer + Warlocks -> High Shadowseer and attendants
Harlequins as troops with harlequin HQ, would need the option for WS too though
Upgradable Jetbikes and Vypers, along with changing vypers to 2man jetbike instead of vehicle (which should be in the book regardless).
Possibly upgradeable wraithlords, with some sort of domino field or the standard holo-suit and no Wraithsight. Mainly because a Harlie Lord is awesome.
Dark Reapers -> Death Jester unit.. These two are already pretty similar in appearance and function.
An Avatar of the Laughing God.. :)

As for fixing harlequins themselves, change shadowseer plasma grenades to defensive and give the whole lot Kisses as standard.

On a sidenote, Warlocks I could see going back in time a bit and get the Wolf Guard mechanic again.

crossfire
18-11-2009, 10:29
Hi,

An interesting discussion, with lots of good points made.
Personally i would like to see the following:

1 A Dark Reaper Exarch power that directly affects the whole squad.
2 Maybe replace the Conceal Warlock power now cover saves are easier to come by.
3 A Craftworld character for each of the major Craftworlds.
4 Plastic Wraithguard.
5 Warlock and Farseer models done in plastic/resin for jetbikes.
6 Plastic/resin Fireprism main gun.
7 Plastic/resin Exarch models with the currently unavailable weapon options.
8 Jetbike canopies with designs for Craftworlds, Shining Spears, Runes either engraved or embossed on them.

I don't see why points 4-8 couldn't be done by Forgeworld.

All the best,
Crossfire

Necro Angelo
18-11-2009, 10:37
I don't see why points 4-8 couldn't be done by Forgeworld.

All the best,
Crossfire

Then they'd still be lots of £$£$, and no one would care. Unless you prefer resin to metal.

the1stpip
18-11-2009, 10:39
Holo Fields should only work if you moved more than 6" (ie, fire one weapon, and get the benefit) and shouldn't work in CC (not gonna help you that close).

Maybe then they would be more fluffy, and make them a tactical choice rather than a no-brainer.

Agree with the +1 BS on Falcons. It does seem silly otherwise.

No-one ever takes an Avatar, they need a real buff.

PaddyF
18-11-2009, 10:41
Well I do as you can't smoke metal... oh that kind of resin...

Sorros
18-11-2009, 11:46
Because it's not the main Eldar battle tank? It's a transport gunship crewed by the Eldar equivalent of guardsmen.

The main Eldar battle tanks (Fire Prism) *is* BS4.

"The Falcon is the primary battle tank of the Eldar army, the curved silhouette a familiar but much dreaded sight to their enemies."(pg. 42, Eldar Codex)

It would appear to be the main battle tank.;)

I just don't see why the fluff should make the Eldar out more than they are...like the Avatar (ignoring the Calgar encounter, he's supposed to be pretty awesome...hes a PIECE of the war god!). Eldar weaponry isn't that great, or it's overpriced *cough* Brightlance vs Darklance? *cough*. The armour saves given to guardians is pretty random, considering that Farseers are willing to let an entire human world be destroyed just to save a few Eldar...and then they just give them the armour that a Guardsman wears? Eldar are supposed to walk many paths (excluding those who become Exarchs, and even then, prior to that it is assumed that they walked a couple). So why are Guardians, people who are only currently on a peaceful path, only BS3? I'm sure that somewhere in their thousand-year lives they were an aspect warrior or something.



Also, I would like some new HQs/characters...Iyanna, anyone? Maybe a Saim-Hann guy who confers a bonus to bikes in the army, or an Altaioc who gives a bonus to rangers/pathfinders? I'd also like to see a warp spider and a shining spear phoenix lord, and a buff to the phoenix lords in general, much as others have said.

Dark Reapers should have a pistol or something, they have literally no weapon other than their launchers.

Maybe some Craftworld variation list or harlie list, something that would make the craftworld lists actually unique.

Vaktathi
18-11-2009, 12:24
"The Falcon is the primary battle tank of the Eldar army, the curved silhouette a familiar but much dreaded sight to their enemies."(pg. 42, Eldar Codex)

It would appear to be the main battle tank.;) Hasn't that pretty much been a cut/paste line since before they introduced the Fire Prism? I'll have to look over some old PDF's again.

Either way, it's still mainly a gunship battle taxi, with the Fire Prism fulfilling the MBT role in terms of actual function. I could see giving the Fire Prism three different fire modes (S10 AP1 BS4 no blast 36", S8 AP2 small blast 60", S5 Ap4 large blast 72")

As is, the Falcon, due to the nature of being a hugely expensive AV12 vehicle, is a giant fire magnet that really never derives its value from shooting but rather survival, mobility and transport. Giving it BS4 won't really generate more value for it, but rather just likely increase it's cost. If one is relying on them for firepower, one generally won't get much out of it even if it does get BS4.





I just don't see why the fluff should make the Eldar out more than they are...like the Avatar (ignoring the Calgar encounter, he's supposed to be pretty awesome...hes a PIECE of the war god!). Eldar weaponry isn't that great, or it's overpriced *cough* Brightlance vs Darklance? *cough*. Dark Lances are stuck in an army that's been stuck with the same book for 10 years, through 3 editions. You can't really compare them in the same light, even if there is a glaring imbalance. Nobody will argue DE lances are undercosted, but given lascannon/lance costs at the beginning of 3E, they weren't out of line at all.



The armour saves given to guardians is pretty random, considering that Farseers are willing to let an entire human world be destroyed just to save a few Eldar...and then they just give them the armour that a Guardsman wears? Not all of it's functions are apparent in game. A guardians armor is self-sealing and can survive short periods of vacuum IIRC, and allows for far more flexibility and movement and is extremely light and form fitting. Not all of this has a direct in game effect, but is apparent in other systems like Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader.


So why are Guardians, people who are only currently on a peaceful path, only BS3? I'm sure that somewhere in their thousand-year lives they were an aspect warrior or something. They are the Eldar equivalent of PDF or conscripts, human equivalents would be WS2/BS2. They aren't currently Aspect Warriors and can't be expected to retain all of their skills even if they were aspect warriors at one point in the past 500 years ago if they've been a painter, history professor, plumber, mathematician, and hair stylist since then.




Dark Reapers should have a pistol or something, they have literally no weapon other than their launchers. I'm not seeing the problem here. Fire Dragons don't have anything but meltaguns, Dire Avengers only have Shuriken Catapults. Why would the dedicated heavy fire support aspect get other weapons to cover weaknesses that other aspects should be there to cover?

Karhedron
18-11-2009, 12:27
No-one ever takes an Avatar, they need a real buff.

Are you kidding? I see and field Avatars all the time. The only lists where they don't featurer are fully mechanised since he can't hitch a ride. He is the 2nd most popular choice after the Farseer and well ahead of Autarchs or phoenix lords.

pom134
18-11-2009, 12:48
Well your point was that it is slightly harder to kill, which it isn't. It is as hard to kill as a landraider with a lascannon. Which, again, is a stupid sentiment because using a lascannon for either of those is like trying to cut down a tree with a sharp rock. It'll get the job done eventually, but take a huge amount of time and effort to do so. But if it gets melta-gunned, it's a different story. There's a reason why it's called "Melta Edition", mate. You were just using an inferior weapon.

I'll do the math later, I just worked 2 back to back shifts and can't get it right now D:

Really dude? REALLY?




MG vs falcon under 6"

2/3 * 30/36 * 9/36 = 13.8% (for penetrating hit kill)
2/3 * 3/36 * 1/36 = 0.15% (for glancing hit kill)

MG vs LR under 6"

2/3 * 21/36 * 1/2 = 19.4% (for penetrating hit kill)
2/3 * 5/36 * 1/6 = 1.5% (for glancing hit kill)





MG vs falcon over 6"

2/3 * 1/3 * 9/36 = 5.5% (for penetrating hit kill)
2/3 * 1/6 * 1/36 = 0.3% (for glancing hit kill)

MG vs LR over 6"

2/3 * 1/6 * 1/6 = 1.8 % (for glancing hit kill)



How about the mother of all tank killers, the twinlinked railgun?
(I'm pretty sure it is AP1, if not even more advantage Falcon)


TLRG vs Falcon

8/9 * 5/6 * 9/36 = 12.3%

TLRG vs LR

8/9 * 1/3 * 1/2 = 14.8%


Sure S6 and S7 shots can kill a Falcon but not a LR. An autocannon shot has a 1.5% chance of killing a Falcon. A strength 6 non-rending has a 0.3% chance. With rending it is 1.2% Would you trade immunity from an already rather impotent weapon to drop your chances of getting killed by dedicated anti-tank weaponry? Yes.


A Falcon is harder to kill than a Landraider.

Nothing is going to change that fact. You're anecdotal evidence of "One time he rolled 4 6's in a row?" conveniently leaves out all the times he didn't. It's called the law of large numbers guys and it works. Shoot at a Falcon enough times and it will survive longer than a Landraider.

It should tell you something about how messed up the game mechanics are when the a gun has a better chance to kill the "weaker" tank in one circumstance but the "stronger" tank in the other. The game mechanic I am refering to is of course holofields, not the armor penetration system.

You might argue that you don't need to kill the falcon and that the fact that it gets penetrated more easily means it is going to be shooting less, regardless of whether or not it dies. That's fine and all but a Falcon that didn't shoot all game can still swoop 24" or even 36" to deny you objectives on the last turn.

Holofields don't need to go away. They need to make sense and work better in the existing game mechanics.

Poseidal
18-11-2009, 12:58
Autocannons can down Falcons but do nothing to Land Raiders.

Anyway, I think they should align the Holofield to the others. It should grant a plain 'save' against attacks rather than doing anything to the damage tables, as it represents the enemies firing at the wrong target.

There was a discussion about holofields in rules dev: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155631

Vaktathi
18-11-2009, 13:04
If Holofields just allow a straight 4+ save, that would be rerollable if otherwise receiving a cover save from moving flat out or obscured, I think it would solve a lot of the issue with them now, and would more realistically reflect the nature of the wargear. I would think a reroll successful to hit would be better, but a reroll to hit stacking with a 4+ save that's already supposed to represent that (in the case of moving over 12" for instance) would be awkward.

\/\/raithlord
18-11-2009, 14:18
Sure S6 and S7 shots can kill a Falcon but not a LR. An autocannon shot has a 1.5% chance of killing a Falcon. A strength 6 non-rending has a 0.3% chance. With rending it is 1.2% Would you trade immunity from an already rather impotent weapon to drop your chances of getting killed by dedicated anti-tank weaponry? Yes.

Actually, no, you wouldn't.
If we've proven a Land Raider is as durable as the Holoshields, then we know it is an equal (To Lascannons). However LandRaiders, cannot be harmed by any S6 or S7 weapons.
Would I swap my Land Raiders AV 14 armour, to Av12 with Holofields because it's an equal? No, because the possibilities of bumping into S6+ weaponry is so much higher than getting within melta-range!

Admittedly, a straight-out kill shot is not likely on a Falcon. But it can be forced to roll on that table so many more times than the other heavy tanks. I don't want my Falcon Immobilised, or with no Weapons. It's pretty useless drifting if people skimped on the S.Stones (Which some people WILL do out there). Nothing on that table is "Good" for you.
Holofields arent as gimped as most people believe they are. I guess the point I'm trying to make is it may be harder to Kill in one, but is much easier to damage, render uselss, or kill due to multiple immobilised/wep destroyed than A Land Raider by FAR.

Anyway, thanks for posting the maths when asked.

incarna
18-11-2009, 15:09
A Falcon is harder to kill than a Landraider.


This is a misleading statement made in the vacuum of lascannon and meltagun fire. A Falcon and Wave serpent is vulnerable to strength 6+ weaponry as well as strength 4+ attacks directed at the rear. A Landraider is only vulnerable to strength 8+ attacks.

Landraiders are invulnerable to krak grenades – Falcons are not.

Lascannons and meltaguns are a popular way to take down vehicles but only a very small slice of the vehicle killing pie.

You also fail to consider the fact that Holo Fields tend to reduce the result of a successful hit – they don’t eliminate it. The lowest possible result of a successful glance or pen is that the vehicle can not shoot in the following turn. In a max 7-turn game, that’s pretty significant.

Sure, Falcons may be tough to bring down but you can diminish their effectiveness over the course of combat far more easily than you can a Landraider. Without str 9+, melta, or MC you simply have no choice but to allow the Landraider to have it’s way with you… the wise Landriader pilot looks for those three threats and avoids them. It’s nearly impossible for a Falcon to avoid Str 6+ or Str 4+ rear threats.

Sildani
18-11-2009, 19:05
By request:

HQ:
Autarch: Loses the Strategy Rating thing, gains Tactical Mastery: The Autarch counts as a scoring unit. This ability is conferred to the squad the Autarch joins. Everything else remains the same.

Farseer (125 pts): Gains Runes of Warding and Runes of Witnessing as standard equipment. May choose up to two psychic powers for free. Gains Psychic Potence: If a Farseer's successfully cast psychic power is stopped, negated etc. for any reason, the Eldar player may roll 1d6. On a 4+, the power is used normally. This may be done every time the power is stopped, negated, etc. Everything else, including the powers themselves, remains the same.

Warlocks: Remain the same.

Avatar: remains the same. I personally don't want to pay 200+ points for him. The current Avatar is one of the best deals going!

Phoenix Lords: Gain a blanket 5+ invulnerable save, except for Asurmen. Founders of the Shrines: A squad of their Aspect counts as Scoring as long as the Phoenix Lord is attached. Tweaks to the various Lords are as follows:

-Asurmen: His Dire Catapults fire at AP 3. The Sword of Asur's bound spirit, Tethesis, is angry and actively wishes to harm the enemies of his brother Asurmen. The Sword will never need worse then a 4+ to wound, regardless of relative Str and T. All else remains the same.

Jain Zar: confers Furious Charge to the squad of Banshees she's attached to. All else remains the same.

Fuegan: Confers Feel No Pain to the squad of Dragons he's attached to. (that should help stop Dragons from getting killed by the vehicle they just killed!) Gains Burning Fist, see below. All else remains the same.

Karandras: No other changes.

Baharroth: Paragon of Flight: When Baharroth Deep Strikes, do not roll for scatter. This ability is conferred to the squad of Hawks he's joined.

Maugan Ra: Gains Targeting Vanes wargear, described below. All else remains the same.

Yriel: gains Tactical Mastery. All else remains the same.

Eldrad Ulthran (275 pts): Gains Psychic Puissance: Successfully cast psychic powers used by Eldrad may never be stopped, negated, etc. Period. All else remains the same.

Iyanna Arienal (350 pts): Warlock statline, except it takes into account her Enhance Warlock power, and she has +1 Attack, +1 Wound, and +1 Leadership. Equipped with the Spear of Teuthlas (singing spear with 18" range) and the Armour of Vaul (invulnerable save if she makes a successful Leadership check). Warlock powers: Enhance, Destructor. Her Spiritseer "bubble" has an 18" range. Accompanied by Corellon, her former lover and the "mighty Wraith-construct" mentioned in the Codex. He has a Wraithlord statline, modified by her Enhance power, and two Wraithswords (+1 Attack, for free), two flamers or shuriken catapults, and up to two heavy weapons (which do not count as twin-linked if they are the same, and cost Wraithlord rates). Iyanna and Corellon have Fleet of Foot. They may join a unit of Wraithguard, although they then lose Fleet. (Phew! Impressive enough?)

TROOPS:

Guardians: May take either one heavy Weapon platform or one support weapon platform for every ten members of the squad. If the squad takes one or more support weapons, the squad gains Slow and Purposeful. Gains Tactical Withdrawal: The Eldar know full well that a tactical retreat to preserve valuable Eldar lives is sometimes the only option, and make fighting withdrawals rather than dying where they stand. Guardians that fall back due to casualties inflicted will not rally and must continue to fall back even if above half strength. Any squad removed from play in this way that is above half strength does not award a kill point to the opponent.

Storm Guardians: become WS 4, gain Tactical Withdrawal. All else remains the same.

Dire Avengers: all gain shuriken pistol and CCW for free. This makes them a bit more useful in CC. All else remains the same.

Rangers/Pathfinders: Pathfinders may be given BS 5 for +5 points per model. All else remains the same.

Guardian Jetbikes: remains the same.

ELITES:

Howling Banshees: Banshee Mask allows equipped models to stike at I 10 in the first round of any assault, regardless of cover, grenades, or any other modifiers. All else remains the same.

Striking Scorpions: Remain the same.

Wraithguard: May exchange their wraithcannon for two CCWs for free. All else remains the same.

Fire Dragons: Exarch may take Burning Fist for +20 pts. The Exarch summons all his wrath and hatred and unleashes it in a devastating attack. In CC the Exarch may re-roll failed wounds and ignores armor saves. (Gives the Dragons just a bit of CC ability - perhaps enough to make the opponent think twice about assaulting.) All else remains the same.

Harlequins: gain the Solitaire (175 pts). This uses the normal Harlie statline and abilities, with the following additions: WS 7, BS 7, +1 Wound, I 7. Equipped with The Solitaire's Kiss, which is a matched pair of Harlequin's Kisses that confer +2 Attacks and have Rending on a 5+ to-Wound roll. Quicksilver: may Assault 12"; if the Solitaire only moves 6" or less to assault, gains +1 Attack in addition to the normal +1 Attack for charging. Also gains a 3+ invulnerable save. Touch of Misfortune: may not be moved in the Movement Phase within 6" of another Eldar unit, except for Wraithguard, Wraithlords, any HQ choice, Harlequins, and models with an Armor Value. If they start a Movement Phase within 6", they must be moved 6" or further away. (represents the dread they inspire in other Eldar). Independent Character. Dance of Death, flip belt, Fleet of Foot.
--Death Jesters: If a Troupe Master is taken, than 0-3 Death Jesters may be taken and used as their own unit. These do not take up an Elite slot in the FOC.

Wave Serpent: No change. It's already the best transport in the game!

FAST ATTACK:
Warp Spiders: Exarch's Surprise Assault: the unit may assault after Deep Striking. Surprise! All else remains the same.

Swooping Hawks (+1 pt. each): Exarch may take Master of Flight for +15 pts: when the Exarch's unit Deep Strikes, roll 1d6 for Scatter. This may be re-rolled, but the second result stands, even if it's worse! Lasblasters are Str 4. Haywire grenades ignore modifers on the Vehicle Damage Table, but suffer from their own modifier of -1, even if they penetrate! All else remains the same. (That should make them damaging against tanks and a bit more deadly against MEQs.)

Vypers: -10 points per model. A squadron may take a Star Eagle Aspect Pilot (described below). Counts as a two-man jetbike. All else remains the same.

Shining Spears: Laser lances and star lances always count as power weapons in CC. All else remains the same.

War Walkers: yep, they're here. All else remains the same.

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Wraithlord: May buy a second Wraithsword for +15 points. This confers +1 Attack. All else remains the same. Note that having two Wraithswords precludes you from having any heavy ranged weapons.

Dark Reapers: Gain Reaper Targeting Vanes for +15 points per model. Due to their grim nature, they gain Stubborn. Reaper Targeting Vanes: though Maugan Ra gets his for free. The Vanes allow the Reaper to actually see the missile's flight through his helmet sensors. Weapons fired by a model so equipped do not need LOS.

Falcon: May have a Star Eagle Aspect Pilot (described below). May take a Crystal Targeting Matrix. May buy a second pulse laser for +35 points instead of a heavy weapon. May replace its pulse laser and secondary heavy weapon option with two d-cannon for +80 points, two vibro cannon for +70 points (which may contribute to support platform vibrocannon), or two shadow weavers for +40 points. All else remains the same.

Fire Prism: May take a Star Eagle Aspect Pilot (described below). Equipped with a Crystal Targeting Matrix. All else remains the same.

0-1 Firestorm (160 points): May take a Star Eagle Aspect Pilot (described below). As Falcon, but replace pulse laser and secondary heavy weapon option with Firestorm scatter lasers. Range 54", Str 6 AP 6, Heavy 7. Ignores cover saves.

Vehicle upgrades:
0-2 Star Eagle Aspect Pilot (+60 pts): These Aspect Warriors take their inspiration from Alean, the steed of Khaine. Theirs is the Way of speed and surety of eye. Centuries spent in the sleek tanks of the Eldar allow them to know every nuance of their vehicles, and they can correlate data from their vehicle's targeters with lethal efficiency. A Star Eagle pilot confers +1 BS to their vehicle. They have also learned to coax every last pound of thrust from their vehicle's turbines and and manipulate its anti-grav field to the point that they can practically pirouette a Falcon! Charge of Alean: A vehicle piloted by a Star Eagle may be placed in Reserve. It comes out of Reserves when the controlling player wishes - no Reserve roll required. It then Deep Strikes onto the table - roll scatter as normal, but if it scatters off of the table, into terrain, or onto an enemy model it does not trigger a roll on the Deep Strike Mishap Table, nor is it destroyed. Instead, move it the minimum distance necessary to put it on the table. The vehicle counts as having moved more than 12" in its last Movement Phase, but may shoot as though it had been stationary. One Star Eagle may assigned per Vyper squadron, and all Vypers in that squadron benefit from the Charge of Alean, although only the Star Eagle's Vyper gains +1 BS.

Crystal Targeting Matrix: weapons mounted on a vehicle with this upgrade ignore the rules for firing blast weapons; rather, roll to hit using the vehicle's current BS.

Heavy Weapons:
Bright Lance: AP 1. All else remains the same.
All other heavy weapons remain the same.

Well, what do you think? How badly is this broken (I'm mostly worried about the Solitaire).

Necro Angelo
18-11-2009, 21:47
Well, what do you think? How badly is this broken (I'm mostly worried about the Solitaire).

I'd be very happy with most of that, if GW were to go by your ideas. If anything's 'broken' I think it would have to be the dark reapers that no longer need LOS :rolleyes: bear in mind that the exarch can fire 2 krak missiles at BS5.

Karhedron
18-11-2009, 22:19
Well, what do you think? How badly is this broken (I'm mostly worried about the Solitaire).

I think if we get ALL those upgrades it might be a tad broken. ;) I would be jumping for joy if we got half of them. However I do agree that you have accurately identified the units most in need of remedial attention.

Cognitave
18-11-2009, 22:21
A Falcon is harder to kill than a Landraider.


That's what holo-fields are meant to do.



Nothing is going to change that fact. You're anecdotal evidence of "One time he rolled 4 6's in a row?" conveniently leaves out all the times he didn't. It's called the law of large numbers guys and it works. Shoot at a Falcon enough times and it will survive longer than a Landraider.


Do all the math you want. You are obviously impatient or blindly foolish. I never provided anecdotal evidence, the anecdote provided all the argument I ever needed to provide. It's random. There is a chance, but if the dice don't want to, they won't.

Also, recall incarna's point. Every marine model gets free krak grenades. It's far too easy to pacify a falcon, rather than just flat-out destroy it. I'll throw the Machine Spirit on the argument table, and hear you flop around with that.

In conclusion, it's already been said that holo-fields not working in close combat is fair, reasonable, and more sensible. But there are too many lurking variables, consisting of "this and that", making a direct comparison slanted. It really doesn't make sense that they would work in close combat. And if someone takes more than 1 DAVU falcon against you, I think you need to find new friends...



Back on topic...

I'm not sure about AP1 on Brightlances. Lances are good, AP2 being their drawback, but it might be a little too overwhelming. Otherwise, I really like Sildani's list.

noobzilla
18-11-2009, 22:35
Nothing is going to change that fact. You're anecdotal evidence of "One time he rolled 4 6's in a row?" conveniently leaves out all the times he didn't. It's called the law of large numbers guys and it works. Shoot at a Falcon enough times and it will survive longer than a Landraider.

I provided the anecodtal instance, and I wasn't saying that "One guy rolled 4 6's against me." (It was 3 only :evilgrin:) but that there are players who can do this frequently, especially this one guy at my club who makes Lascannons look like good choices by FREQUENTLY rolling 3 6's straight. Which is insane, but at the same time, it happens.

Although I stated earlier that I think that Eldar do not seriously need a new update. Sidani has made a very good list of what should be improved if it does happen.

big squig
18-11-2009, 23:29
Bring back Craftworld specific army lists. I think this can be done without overpowering them and would make the army much more diverse and interesting to play.

C-girl.

NOOOOOOooooooo!!!

Seriously though, the eldar codex handles the craftworlds perfectly by giving you maximum flexibility within the basic list. Adding extra rules and supplements is simply bad game design. The eldar codex should be the standard all codexs are built inder.

big squig
18-11-2009, 23:34
I kinda miss how 2nd ed warpspiders used to work.

I'd like to see their jump generators work better, maybe allowing for a 3d6 jump in both the movement phase and either a 6" assault or a 3d6 jump in the assault phase.

They should have deep strike standard.

Also, I love how their guns worked in 2nd ed. They used to be flamers and anyone hit had to make a I test or die. Now, that's a bit extreme today, but maybe they could be Range: template, Str 3, AP3, Assault 1 (roll to wound against the target's Initiative).

Or maybe 12" assault 2 as flame templates are freakishly nasty now.

Arakanis
18-11-2009, 23:40
I kinda miss how 2nd ed warpspiders used to work.

I'd like to see their jump generators work better, maybe allowing for a 3d6 jump in both the movement phase and either a 6" assault or a 3d6 jump in the assault phase.

They should have deep strike standard.

Also, I love how their guns worked in 2nd ed. They used to be flamers and anyone hit had to make a I test or die. Now, that's a bit extreme today, but maybe they could be Range: template, Str 3, AP2, Assault 1 (roll to wound against the target's Initiative).

That's actually pretty awesome! I could totally get behind something like that. It's very characterful and more interesting than just strength 6 dakka.
Would it inflict instant death on I1 models? That would make a powerful anti Monstrous Creature unit.

Zaonite
18-11-2009, 23:47
2nd ed Death Spinners were awesome.

They were very fluffy, and still would be if they brought it back. Just make it AP4 and it will slice through everything except power armour (which it wasn't designed to do)

Sildani
19-11-2009, 01:08
They should have deep strike standard.



Ask, and ye shall recieve! Warp Spiders count as Jump Infantry, and in 5th Ed., Jump Infantry can always Deep Strike when the mission allows it.

Arakanis
19-11-2009, 02:04
Ask, and ye shall recieve! Warp Spiders count as Jump Infantry, and in 5th Ed., Jump Infantry can always Deep Strike when the mission allows it.

Which of course means that Surprise Attack! Needs a new use.

Which actually brings to a new point. Posideal brought up the idea to seperate Warrior Powers and Exarch Powers. Warrior powers being abilities that Aspect Squads can use (Bladestorm, Defend, Skyleap, Shadowstrike, etc) and Exarch powers being abilities that Exarchs can use for themselves (Crack shot, Burning Fist, Crushing Blow, Fast Shot, etc)

It's looking like there are 2 main camps here. 1) Revise Eldar a tad for 5th edition, adjust prices, abilities to be in line with current generational stuff 2) go backwards to 2nd and 3rd edition sort of create a new codex similar to how GW has been looking backwards for other armies

Personally, I like number 2

Ghost-13
19-11-2009, 02:50
I've thought about this a bit and some of the major things that i would like to see in a new codex are

1) Unique gear for the Autarch, and why not through in a plastic kit to show off all that new gear. I Dream of giving mine an executioner with rending.
2) some Phoenix Lord love, +4 invulnerable saves all round and some reworking on the points. Maybe Asurmen should get a reroll on his armor save? but i think thats a little much.
3) 24" guardian shuriken cannons but assault 1, or just make them the same as avenger cats. Also lower their cost, but alot of the models need some point tweaks to bring them in line with this edition.
4) Something to improve swooping hawks, i love the models but hate their performance on the board. Maybe str 4 guns, or assault 3 possibly?
5) One thing about this current codex that infuriates me to no end is the star cannon, yeah it was amazing in the last codex, so i could understand making it more expensive, OR reducing its performance, but BOTH cmon i look at it and can almost buy 2 scatter lasers for the cost, AND those scatter lasers often get me more kills in a game. Kick it back up to 3 shots or reduce its points.
6) I want witchblades and singing spears to be rending, it wont help any against vehicles and it would make me not be so afraid to throw a seercouncil into melee... against a shooting unit...
7) Id like to see plasma grenades for Dire Avengers, Guardings, and Warp Spiders. I also think plasma grenades should be 5 str against vehicles sense they gave everyone else our strike in initiative order grenades. :mad:
8) Id like to see some sort of Craft World stuff come back, but only because i have to many troops choices at the moment. I used to play Alaitoc so i have 26 ranger models, but what drew me to eldar in the first place was their jet bikes i have 18. I also have two squads of dire avengers and guardians. I'm sad i can't field all of that any more.
9) An Exarch type warlock. Warlocks are warrior pyskers, so why are none of them lost on the warrior path like the aspect warriors. Giving them and exarch stat line with access to a new pysker power or two. Possibly make them an HQ choice.
10) I'd also like to see the Brightlance either getting to be ap 1 or range 48" I've seen how cheap las cannons are for imps:rolleyes:

Karhedron
19-11-2009, 12:50
2nd ed Death Spinners were awesome.

They were very fluffy, and still would be if they brought it back. Just make it AP4 and it will slice through everything except power armour (which it wasn't designed to do)

I must admit I would quite like to see Deathspinners given Rending. After all Harlequin kisses grant that ability and it is based on the same monomolecular ammo.


Ask, and ye shall recieve! Warp Spiders count as Jump Infantry, and in 5th Ed., Jump Infantry can always Deep Strike when the mission allows it.

I totally failed to notice that despite playing 5th edition for over a year now. :eek:

That means I have been wasting points on a redundant Exarch power all that time. :mad:


8) Id like to see some sort of Craft World stuff come back, but only because i have to many troops choices at the moment. I used to play Alaitoc so i have 26 ranger models, but what drew me to eldar in the first place was their jet bikes i have 18. I also have two squads of dire avengers and guardians. I'm sad i can't field all of that any more.

You can still field most of it. 2 large squads of Rangers, 2 large squads of jetbikes and then 2 large units of Guardians or Avengers.

Even taking a special force org chart would be unlikely to allow you to use more than 6 units of Troops. It sounds to me like you just have a large collection of models (nothing wrong with that ;)). It is like a Marine player who alreayd has 6 tactical squads but then gets some scouts too.

shabbadoo
19-11-2009, 13:34
I forgot that the Harlequin's Kiss is Rending. Definitely add Rending to Deathspinners so as to bring them in line with one another.

I neglected to mention the Fire Prism in the plastic models section. That hybrid monstrosity needs to go full plastic. Maybe add a second type of heavy weapon on the sprue, such as a larger class of Shadow Weaver(5" template). Speaking of which, add Rending to the Shadow Weaver too- give Rending to all monofiliment weapons.

Arakanis
19-11-2009, 13:38
I forgot that the Harlequin's Kiss is Rending. Definitely add Rending to Deathspinners so as to bring them in line with one another.

I neglected to mention the Fire Prism in the plastic models section. That hybrid monstrosity needs to go full plastic. Maybe add a second type of heavy weapon on the sprue, such as a larger class of Shadow Weaver(5" template). Speaking of which, add Rending to the Shadow Weaver too- give Rending to all monofiliment weapons.

I actually kind of wish that they just made Harlequins do rending with whatever weapon they chose and then make the Harlequins kiss it's old 2+ wound profile.

Still, that might be a tad OTT. Making all monofiliment weapons Rending would actually be pretty cool.

Sildani
19-11-2009, 14:10
That was actually a rumor going around when the Eldar Codex was in development. It died hard, so perhaps it was playtested and found broken. After all, you could conceivably fill Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support with Rending weapons.

Karhedron: see what happens when you're away from the boards for so long? ;)

DarkstormUlthwe
19-11-2009, 15:15
I do agree wholeheartedly to the previously mentioned suggestion to make the Eldar better, and more expensive to represent the "dying race"-background. As an Ulthwé-player I'd like something done to Guardians in particular. As mentioned, paper-armour and short ranged SMGs doesn't make sense as equipment to give to civilians. As they are the ones that are less well trained in the art of war than the Aspect Warriors, sense would be to equip them as well as possible. The argument against would of course be that Elite troops should have better gear. To which I agree. But, How about giving Guardians a 4+ armour and removing Fleet to represent that they are not as adept at moving in the armoured suits as the Aspect? I know that Eldar Armour is supposed to be light-weight and allow extreme movement, but it makes sense that Aspect Warriors should be more agile and skilled than Guardians.

When it comes to their weaponry, 12" is way too short range. If we were a dying race, would we equip half-trained militia with short ranged SMGs? This is probably not good math, but since a pistol also has a range of 12" and considering what I "know" of pistols, the effective range of a Shuriken Catapult is about 50 metres. 18" would be fair, then give Dire Avengers a 3rd shot or slightly longer range. I'd argue for the 3rd shot as Shuriken Weaponry is supposed to be short ranged.

Plastic models:
Wraithguard
Warlocks
Warp Spiders
I like the idea to put all weapon options for the Autarch in a plastic set.
The new Jetbike-models we've seen pictures of for ages. Warlock/Farseer-jetbike kit.
Swooping Hawks
Prism cannon.

I wouldn't be terribly disappointed if the Spiders came out in metal, but they sorely need new models.

shabbadoo
20-11-2009, 05:17
That was actually a rumor going around when the Eldar Codex was in development. It died hard, so perhaps it was playtested and found broken. After all, you could conceivably fill Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support with Rending weapons.

I don't think it would be over-powered at all, especially considering that Rending has been downgraded. If Rending were so overpowered then we would see entire Tyranid armies with Rending, which can be done, wiping out everyone. That of course is not happening. :D Monofiliment weapons are uniquely Eldar, so might as well make them all work in similar ways. That they don't is, to me, sloppy game design. And, oddly enough, the weapon that has just one monofiliment is much more deadly than the weapons that fire a cloud of them. "Harlequin Magic". :p

Arakanis
20-11-2009, 05:34
I don't think it would be over-powered at all, especially considering that Rending has been downgraded. If Rending were so overpowered then we would see entire Tyranid armies with Rending, which can be done, wiping out everyone. That of course is not happening. :D Monofiliment weapons are uniquely Eldar, so might as well make them all work in similar ways. That they don't is, to me, sloppy game design. And, oddly enough, the weapon that has just one monofiliment is much more deadly than the weapons that fire a cloud of them. "Harlequin Magic". :p

I've always felt that Rending is a good way to show more "subtle" weapons, as opposed to the brute force of power weapons.

Sorros
20-11-2009, 12:19
By request:


Well, what do you think? How badly is this broken (I'm mostly worried about the Solitaire).

I think its pretty good. A BS5 Fire Prism seems a little scary, but it is for 60 more points.

Hawks should indeed have a S4 weapon, makes more sense, and Vypers shouldn't be so...bad...for their current point value.

I like the whole Exarch vs Warrior power, as someone else had mentioned, with aspect warrior squads already being able to have an ability but if an exarch is bought, another special ability may be given to the squad. I think that the Guardians do need better rifles, and should probably be BS4 if Storm Guardians get WS4, as they would really have WS5 if a warlock w/ Enhance goes with them...not that I would mind :evilgrin:

Sildani
20-11-2009, 13:44
I don't think it would be over-powered at all, especially considering that Rending has been downgraded. If Rending were so overpowered then we would see entire Tyranid armies with Rending, which can be done, wiping out everyone. That of course is not happening. :D Monofiliment weapons are uniquely Eldar, so might as well make them all work in similar ways. That they don't is, to me, sloppy game design. And, oddly enough, the weapon that has just one monofiliment is much more deadly than the weapons that fire a cloud of them. "Harlequin Magic". :p

Not disagreeing with you here, but perhaps the Kiss can Rend because it pierces the targets, then "fires" the monofiliment, instead of the filiment drifting around looking for a chink in the armor.

brightblade
20-11-2009, 15:58
I totally failed to notice that despite playing 5th edition for over a year now. :eek:

That means I have been wasting points on a redundant Exarch power all that time. :mad:

Ahem. Me, too. In the same way I didn't notice that independant characters have move through cover and skilled rider. Makes that bike autarch/farseer more appealing.:D

I like the idea of making the spinner a template weapon but I think ap5 is good enough. Strength of 5 would be good to and it that would help justify the points cost.

I like the exarch/warrior power thing. Sounds good. I am also keen on more autarch choices. Did someone mention a rending executioner. :D

Netfreakk
20-11-2009, 16:55
Sorry didn't read all the pages, but:

I would like to see:

Phoenix lord gives their aspect troop choice option.

Starcannons heavy 4 or make vipers BS4

Eldrad fleet

Witchblades either like posted above rending or wound on 4+ and are all power weapons.

an Item like ghost helm which negates, psychic negating powers. =O or makes it harder for people to negate powers... Eldar is supposedly the strongest psykers....

An item that can be purchased on wave serpents which gives the ability for units to "warp" 2 inches away from the hull of the wave serpent. (don't know if this would be Over powered, but maybe even letting them do so after turbo boosting, but they have to do dangerous terrain tests.)

will think of more... I don't play eldar btw so i'm not really wishlisting...

Arakanis
20-11-2009, 19:49
Not disagreeing with you here, but perhaps the Kiss can Rend because it pierces the targets, then "fires" the monofiliment, instead of the filiment drifting around looking for a chink in the armor.

That's also possible, but keep in mind that the Kisses used to be 2+ wound (I think they did instant death too, maybe?) which I think better fits the idea of a monofiliment shredding your insides.

Oh, and make the Ghosthelm an Anti-Daemon wargear again. That was really awesome back in the day.

Vaktathi
20-11-2009, 19:56
That's also possible, but keep in mind that the Kisses used to be 2+ wound (I think they did instant death too, maybe?) which I think better fits the idea of a monofiliment shredding your insides. I really don't think they need to wound on a 2+, I'm just not seeing the justification for it in a game balance sense in this edition. Lascannons also used to do 2d6 wounds and a heavy bolter could kill off Calgar if he failed his saves, I don't think that just because it was in 2nd that old mechanics necessarily belong back in the game at this point.

Arakanis
20-11-2009, 20:29
I really don't think they need to wound on a 2+, I'm just not seeing the justification for it in a game balance sense in this edition. Lascannons also used to do 2d6 wounds and a heavy bolter could kill off Calgar if he failed his saves, I don't think that just because it was in 2nd that old mechanics necessarily belong back in the game at this point.

I think they were like this in that Chapter Approved Harlequin list that came out in 3rd. You know the one that promptly was banned everywhere for just being insanely broken? I don't know that it was the Harlequin Kisses that caused that reaction though. (More like all the OTHER stuff)

Gaargod
20-11-2009, 21:44
Um, some slightly... well frankly overpowered ideas going on here.

Just because the fluff repeatedly goes on about how the eldar are mighty psykers etc, etc, doesn't mean they actually need to be able to just wtfpwn all other psykers. Its just that, fluff. They're already extremely good, with their runes, with some good support powers (fortune, doom, guide). The whole point of buying psyker nullifying kit is so that they can be, you know, nullified? Not just 'i'm an eldar, so i am ignoring that part'.

On the same line, proposing that farseers (currently easily the best choice going) should be heavily buffed for no cost? They just don't need it.

Wraithguard with 2 wounds? Seriously? They're T6 3+ elites/troops with an extremely dangerous (although close ranged) gun. Slight points reduction perhaps.

All witchblades as power weapons sounds fine, until you realise that you're giving everyone wound on 2+/S9 power weapons. Which is nuts. They're now like power fists on a space marine, except better and strike in I order. If it were to be true, would be very expensive.

Star Eagle pilots (fine, makes sense) who allow you to drop in a unit, guaranteed, with no risk of deep striking, no reserve roll, going flat out in terms of being hit but not count as moving yourself (explain that one...) as well as give other bonuses, are not a good idea.

There's a few other ones in there which made me go 'huh?' but those are some of the best. I think it was Silidani which kind of epitomised this in saying, paraphrasing, that wave serpents don't need to be changed as they're the best transport in the game. Think about it.



Some ideas are good however.

The possibility for an all-harle army is fine. Equally, making all mono-filimant weaponry makes sense and improves both them and warp spiders (who could do with a boost, maybe let them jump in the assault phase like jetpacks, but with an added risk?).

Extra aspects are great, as are all the phoenix lords (who could do with the 4++ and a bit more synergy with their chosen unit. Plus, the ability to make one unit troops/all of that aspect scoring). Equally, Autarchs with extra weaponry and the ability to make a unit scoring sounds ok, if possibly a little open to abuse (certain restrictions perhaps, like only elites?).

Making wraithguard/lords more close combaty sounds interesting.



Basically, look more at what is realistic and interesting rather than simply going for buffs for your favourite units. That way madness lies (Chaos 3.5 iron warriors anyone?)

Vaktathi
20-11-2009, 21:56
I think they were like this in that Chapter Approved Harlequin list that came out in 3rd. You know the one that promptly was banned everywhere for just being insanely broken? I don't know that it was the Harlequin Kisses that caused that reaction though. (More like all the OTHER stuff)

In the context of 3E it was quite ridiculous. Solitaire charging into a unit that it's 1" away from at the start of the assault phase with 13 attacks striking at WS8/I8 (and halved enemy weapon skill) and wounding on a 2+ for 110pts (back when there was still area terrain and intervening models blocked LoS so it didn't have a problem getting close) for 110pts was a bit much.

The list had some definite balance issues within the 3E context, and was very heavily marked at every point "experimental". Would it still? Not sure, but the wounds on 2+ kisses were a bit much considering just how many could be taken.


Um, some slightly... well frankly overpowered ideas going on here. most definitely, especially with regards to things like farseer suggestions.

Arakanis
20-11-2009, 22:27
Just because the fluff repeatedly goes on about how the eldar are mighty psykers etc, etc, doesn't mean they actually need to be able to just wtfpwn all other psykers. Its just that, fluff. They're already extremely good, with their runes, with some good support powers (fortune, doom, guide). The whole point of buying psyker nullifying kit is so that they can be, you know, nullified? Not just 'i'm an eldar, so i am ignoring that part'.
...why not? A lot of other armies are like that.
"Falling Back?! I'm a Space Marine, so I am ignoring that part."
"Morale Checks?! I'm a Tyrannid, so I am ignoring that part."
"Shooting one weapon per turn?! I'm a Tau, so I am ignoring that part."
"All weapons fire at one target?! I'm a Space Wolf, so I am ignoring that part."
"Shooting rules?! I'm a Vindicare, so I am ignoring that part."
Lots of armies have weird rules that ignore the normal circumstances.




On the same line, proposing that farseers (currently easily the best choice going) should be heavily buffed for no cost? They just don't need it.
I don't know that Farseers need to be buffed for free, but they could have some more goodies (that you would pay for)



Wraithguard with 2 wounds? Seriously? They're T6 3+ elites/troops with an extremely dangerous (although close ranged) gun. Slight points reduction perhaps. I don't see this being all that bad.



All witchblades as power weapons sounds fine, until you realise that you're giving everyone wound on 2+/S9 power weapons. Which is nuts. They're now like power fists on a space marine, except better and strike in I order. If it were to be true, would be very expensive. Except they AREN'T Strength 9 power weapons. They're wounds on 2+ Power weapons that count as Strength 9 against vehicles. So no instant death, which is the only reason that power fists are really all that. I would say that the initiative boost would be worth the cost of being able to kill with a single wound. Also keep in mind that Space Marine Sergeants have more attacks than a Warlock does.



Star Eagle pilots (fine, makes sense) who allow you to drop in a unit, guaranteed, with no risk of deep striking, no reserve roll, going flat out in terms of being hit but not count as moving yourself (explain that one...) as well as give other bonuses, are not a good idea.
Yeah, I like Star Eagles, but I don't know why they would be able to do that. I've got some ideas for what Star Eagles (And the other two vehicle aspects could do) Personally, I think that Star Eagles are flyer pilots, not grav-tank crew.



The possibility for an all-harle army is fine. Equally, making all mono-filimant weaponry makes sense and improves both them and warp spiders (who could do with a boost, maybe let them jump in the assault phase like jetpacks, but with an added risk?).
They already can jump in the assault phase. They roll 2D6" for distance and lose a member on doubles.



The list had some definite balance issues within the 3E context, and was very heavily marked at every point "experimental". Would it still? Not sure, but the wounds on 2+ kisses were a bit much considering just how many could be taken.
I would personally limit them to a percentage of the squad. This assumes that Harlequins are by their very nature capable of rending with regular close combat weapons.

willow560
21-11-2009, 15:53
All this talk about how Harlequin's Kisses used to work made me curious since I've only recently started playing Eldar again since stopping back in 2nd edition. I had forgotten just how freakishly awesome they were. Page 54 from the 2nd Edition Eldar Codex explains "Determine Hand-to-Hand combat hits as normal. If a hit is scored the target makes an immediate armor saving throw. If the save is passsed the target is unharmed.....If the save is failed the model is automatically killed."

So yeah... They definitely were overpowered because you didn't need to roll to wound and it killed any multiple wound models outright if successful. Although it didn't get an armor save modifier, so I suppose that was what helped balance it out.

On to the original question.

- There seems to be a split between making Exarchs squad sergeants and pseudo-ICs. Perhaps a good compromise is to to give exarchs all access to a power that gives them 2 wounds. Call it Battle Hardened or something. That gives you choice in how you want to go with your squad. Add in Exarch powers like they used to be that give a bonus only to the exarch (extra strength, extra toughness, etc.) Each Exarch can only choose 2 powers, which prevents you from making them completely multirole.
- Phoenix Lords get a 5+ invulerable save. Aspect Warrior squads they are attached to become scoring. Asurmen can join any aspect warrior squad.
- Turn Vypers into big jetbikes with 2 wounds and give them the jetbike move in the assault phase.
- Surprise Assault for Warp Spiders changes into Precise Assault. This lets them Deepstrike without rolling for Reserves if they so Choose.
- Swooping Hawks need a new roll. The concept is actually pretty close. The concept seems to be good against weak stuff when shooting, good against strong stuff in assaults (Land Raiders and Such). Lets try to keep that concept. How about giving Swooping Hawks something called "Acid Patches" or something along those lines. Swooping Hawks can chose to reduce their number of attacks to 1. Acid Patches count as Poisoned and wound on 4+. Acid Patches Ignore Armor saves. This gives the swooping hawks an attack in close combat similar to their Haywire Grenades and gives them flexibility. Points perhaps stay the same as now because of the new ability.
-Lessen Wraithsight for Wraithlords to make it closer to how it used to be. Wraithlords within 24 inches of a friendly Farseer may re-roll failed Wraithsight rolls. If you choose to reroll, the Wraithlord cannot run and looses the ability to shoot 2 weapons until the start of your next turn.
-Guardians need long range basic weapons. It makes no sense any other way in my opinion. Eldar simply wouldn't equip normal citizens with weapons with ranges shorter than bolters. If they need to make a new weapon, so be it. 24 inch range. Maybe give them the Swooping Hawk guns. Points raise to make them more expensive, say 10 points.
-Dire Avengers keep their guns as is because they are expected to close with the enemy but get Pistols and CC weapons.
-Howling Banshees get access to an Exarch Power called "Agile Disembarking." This allows the Waveserpent they are embarked the only pivots to count as completely stationary. Prevents access point blocking, gives you a bit more of movement distance, and allows you to present the front of the Waveserpent to the enemy before the strike. Disadvantage being that you can only pivot that turn to count as non-moving for the banshees, but you can't move after that to protect your weaker armor.
-Falcon can Shoot 2 weapons when moving 12 inches or less a turn.

Overall, the codex is fairly solid and I like how it works with 5th Edition. Mostly just tweaks to make it a little more fun to play and a little more logical.

Bunnahabhain
21-11-2009, 18:59
I like the main feel of the current codex.Mainly aspect warrior based, with most characters offering support and enhancements to the army.

What I'd like to see is the Glass hammer approach refined a bit. Most of the codex is fine for this already, but there are a few things that could do with tweaking.

Tone down:
Falcons. Make them hit harder( BS4 as standard dodge, or dodge round stupid vehicle weapon rules), but more fragile.

Solid core for army. Even Eldar need some very solid units, you can't always just run about...
Guardians. Better basic weapons, and sensible weapon platforms options, option for 4+ save at sensible price.
Wraithguard. Plastic models.
Ensure wraithlords fit in with these.

Fast stuff.
Vypers. Upgrade for jetbike units
Swooping hawks. Define a role for them. Several of the above suggestions would work.

Special characters. Tone down Eldrard, so he's not a no brainer upgrade in many armies.
Phoniex lord lets you count relevent aspect as troops. Resonable ++ saves. Eternal warrrior? They deserve it if any human sized guy does.

Weapons.
Monofiliment stuff being rending is a nice representation of its mechanism.
Star cannons. Make both useful, and sanely priced...
Prism cannons. Split fire modes. Decent AT shot, ( S9, AP1, Lance? S9 AP1 ordnance? S10 AP1?) or reasonable large blast ( s6 ap4?)
If keeping combined fire, make it awesome ( S10, AP1, Ordnance, Lance, Twin linked,ie about a good an AT weapon as you can get.... or S8 ap2 large blast

Just some thoughts. Points would need to be altered round lots of these.

Netfreakk
21-11-2009, 19:01
Um, some slightly... well frankly overpowered ideas going on here.

On the same line, proposing that farseers (currently easily the best choice going) should be heavily buffed for no cost? They just don't need it.

All witchblades as power weapons sounds fine, until you realise that you're giving everyone wound on 2+/S9 power weapons. Which is nuts. They're now like power fists on a space marine, except better and strike in I order. If it were to be true, would be very expensive.


1. I didn't say without any cost, I was just throwing an idea out as I see that eldar is reliant on psychic powers and being able to negate powers on just a 4+/3+ seems like a huge advantage.

I would be annoyed if eldar could negate moral checks on a 4+/3+ and forces units to fall back regardless... wait that power should be implemented =P.

2. That's why I said it should wound on 4+ that's 50% of their limited attacks, but they can wound Toughness anything.

Arakanis
21-11-2009, 20:49
Another possibility for witchblades would be have them go up a little in price, and autowound, but otherwise remain the same. I know that sounds like crazy talk, but it works out to 1/6 more wounds, you still get saves, you still have to roll to hit, you still only have one attack with them anyways. There's already 2+ poison weapons all over the place, I feel that Witchblades should be a little different

Netfreakk
21-11-2009, 21:17
The problem I find with them are that you just get stuck in combat, if anything then the Farseer should have a powerweapon based witchblade. They just don't have any killing power in combat imo.

Arakanis
21-11-2009, 21:42
Someone suggested a scaling system like you have with the Nemesis Force Weapon
Witchblade
w/ Warlock = 2+ wound, S9 tanks
w/ High Warlock = 2+ wound, S9 tanks, power weapon
w/ Farseer = 2+ wound, S9 tanks, force weapon

Or something like that.

Aethernaut
21-11-2009, 22:27
I'm quite happy with the current Eldar codex, though I think there is some wackiness that could be cleared up...

Autarch:
Should be more competent/consistent in assault. Not shockingly better, but maybe with access to some of his own unique gear and weapons.

The Autarch could have the option to exchange Master Strategist for one of a handful of other special rules. These could include: Furious Charge, Fearless(Conferred to any unit joined).

Farseer:
I'd like to see a slightly expanded list of psychic powers. maybe a few new ones that are more similar to the flashy powers used by other armies to attack enemies directly. This might not be necessary, but I think it would be a lot of fun.

Wraithguard:
Their rules seem fine to me, though 18" wraithcannons would be a welcome change. They need some beautiful new plastic models more than anything.

Wraithlord
I think you should be allowed to buy it two of the same gun and have it actually count as two guns. This should be notably more expensive than doing the same for warwalkers. Also, an option to buy a second sword for +1 A.

Falcon:
The easiest way fix this vehicle is to give it BS 4. I don't think it would be overpowered at all and it's really not that big a stretch for the fluff either. A Falcon is an advanced war machine that should have an appropriately skilled crew.

Swooping Hawks:
Instead of tweaking the lasblaster, maybe the grenade pack should be more impressive, and have the option to drop different types of grenades. Something like:

Plasma Grenades: S: 4 AP: 4 Large Blast, Pinning
Krak Grenades: S: 6 AP: 3 Blast

Weapon changes:

Shuriken Catapult: 18" range.
Starcannon: Back to Heavy 3.
Shuriken Cannon: S 5 AP 5 Assault 4
Scatter Laser: Heavy 5,
Bright Lance: 48" range, reduced cost.

Just some ideas.

Silentexile
22-11-2009, 06:35
Six pages and nobody has mentioned Eldritch Storm, just goes to show it is probably the least used ability/unit in the whole codex.

*Eldritch Storm: Range:24" S5 AP- Type:Assault 1, Large Blast, Barrage
If the Farseer has line of sight to the target, Eldritch Storm does not scatter, otherwise Eldritch Storm scatters 1D6 instead of the usual 2D6 for barrage weapons out of line of sight.
*Starcannons: Back to 3 shots, possible very slight points reduction.
*Warlocks:+1WS,+1I,+1A,+1Ld, able to be put into different squads like the Wolf Guard
*Avatar of Khaine:Immune to Plasma, alternate firing mode for the wailing doom
*Phoenix Lords:4+ Invuln save for all, points drop
*Wave Serpent:Lower base cost, lower cost for Bright Lance
*Warp Spiders:Slightly lower point cost or rending on their weapons, new ability for surprise assault

There's more that needs to be done, but it's late and I don't feel like going through the whole book right now.

Deetwo
22-11-2009, 11:03
Six pages and nobody has mentioned Eldritch Storm, just goes to show it is probably the least used ability/unit in the whole codex.

Less used than Swooping Hawks? I doubt that. It's not a very attractive power in comparison, but atleast it's not entirely useless.

Not a bad idea for ES there, but I think there's no need to make it Barrage or have it scatter.

Necro Angelo
22-11-2009, 11:31
[QUOTE=Arakanis;4145878]...why not? A lot of other armies are like that.
"Falling Back?! I'm a Space Marine, so I am ignoring that part."
"Morale Checks?! I'm a Tyrannid, so I am ignoring that part."
"Shooting one weapon per turn?! I'm a Tau, so I am ignoring that part."
"All weapons fire at one target?! I'm a Space Wolf, so I am ignoring that part."
"Shooting rules?! I'm a Vindicare, so I am ignoring that part."
Lots of armies have weird rules that ignore the normal circumstances.

QUOTE]

you forgot, "instant death?! I'm a carnifex/demon/thing you'd actually want to inflict instant death on, so I'm ignoring that part."

and yeah eldritch storm just should'nt scatter. end of. its S3 for pitys sake.

another idea I had was that it should be a free, 'default' power that every farseer starts with.

Trogdor
22-11-2009, 12:10
I seem to remember Eldritch Storm having a useful secondary effect back in the day - disruption. Didn't it force affected models out to the edge of the template, messing up unit cohesion? Apologies if this is still the case, as I'm not an Eldar player anymore and less familiar with the current state of affairs, but if not then this might make Eldritch Storm useful again, if only against low toughness/horde armies.

Splog
22-11-2009, 13:01
I'd like to see various points adjustments.

A few ideas here, some I'm more keen on than others:

'Wraithwardens' - Alternate wraithguard unit. Something like: Lose wraithcannons and gain glaive/polearm type weapon. Counts as a power weapon that can re-roll missed attacks, and for each unsaved wound a model suffers it must make a leadership roll, upon a failed roll the model dies and is removed from play. Dire-wraith-powerweapons. The idea is to make them good at taking out low numbers of powerful models (though not vehicles) in close combat, but be rubbish against swarms and at range.. so hopefully a CC wraithguard.

Guardians - I don't know, but Something Needs To Be Done. Semi obvious choice is to give them range 18", but then what to do with Dire Avengers? Rending is probably too much.

Wraithlords - duplicate weapons don't count as twin linked. Aside from the 'small arms' weapon selection is 1-3, with a maximum of two heavy weapons and two swords. An additional sword gives +1 A (and looks cool). [Possibly Aspected Wraithlords?]

Swooping Hawks - blah, Something Needs To Be Done.

Webway - can 'gate in' reserves or give any (or nearly) any unit deepstrike for a set or % points cost.

A return of the Dark Reaper targeting vanes - perhaps ignore cover saves that are granted due to high speed, and/or Reapers count as having AA mounts.

Warp Spiders - 50/50 split between liking them as they and wanting to see their weapon changed back to its original spirit.. something like: Template S4 AP5 Assault 1, use target's I instead of T. Vs vehicles 4 + D6 with an additional D6 if you get a 6.

Harlequin character upgrades to be more characterful.

Return of the Executioner psychic power.

Warlock units as an Elite option.

'Battleseer' - Warlocks who have become stuck on their path. Squad leader upgrade. Boost to Warlock powers/new ones (with focus on daemon hunting?). Profile change something like LD+1, save becomes 3+, witch-weapons gain rending (last two due to development of psychic abilities).


Autarch - I feel the stats are too high for the concept. Drop points down (55 to match the Farseer?), change the stat line to an Exarch with 2 wounds and provide 'some other' strategy special ability.

'Proper' Exarchs - HQ option. Stats as current autarch. Swap force field for eternal warrior. As well as autarch equipment selection include all the exarch 'sergeant' options in the same way. Up to 3 exarch powers (any aspect).

Phoenix Lords - price drop (and harmonised?). Additional exarch power (see later). Their aspect counts as scoring. Some other bonus for Asurmen.

Make Phoenix Lords for Shining Spears and Warp Spiders.

Avatar - include immunity to plasma weapons. Torn 50/50 between wanting it to stay as is (+ plasma immunity), or make some changes to reflect the aspects (or rather reinforce that the Aspects are like aspects of Khaine), or at least the primary ones, though this would probably make it too expensive. e.g. give Fire Dragon exarch a power that provides the same immunities as the avatar has, give the Avatar Defend, etc.

'Sergeant' Exarchs - replace all of the non special / non unique exarch weapon options, allow them to pick up to two exarch powers out of a selection of four for their aspect. The third power is from the extra additional power their Phoenix Lord currently has. The fourth is new. Exarch powers to focus on the individual and not the squad.

(as examples)

Fire Dragon Exarch:
- Lose option to get the Dragon Breath Flamer.
- Gain option to replace meltagun for dual inferno pistols ; basically an asssault 2 inferno pistol and counts as 2x closecombat weapons.
- Gain option to replace equipment with 'dragon armature'; counts as flamer and in close combat as a power weapon that has 5 +2D6 armour penetration
- Gain option for power Feel No Pain
- Gain option for power 'Walk through fire' (has same immunities as the Avatar)

Striking Scorpion Exarch:
- Gain option for Stealth
- Gain option for +1 S to profile

Dark Reaper Exarch:
- Lose option for EML
- Lose option for Shuriken Cannon
- Some weapon or other
- Missile launcher variant with two firing modes both range 48":
Melta - Strength 6, AP 3, Heavy 2, Melta
Mono-filament Strength 2, AP -, Heavy 1, Large Blast
- Gain option for relentless (not the squad!)
- Gain option for Acute senses

Shining Spear Exarch:
- lose option for power weapon
- lose option for shuriken cannon
- Gain option for 'moonspear', as per laser lance but does not count as a power weapon, ignores invulnerable saves, counts as strength 10 for the purposes of instant death
- Some kind of shield giving a 5+ invulnerable save and reduces the chance to hit the exarch?
- new power (?)
- new power - Rampage; consolidation move is up to 6" may be used to move into assault, assault not fought that turn but the unit will count as charging in the next assault phase

Mozzamanx
22-11-2009, 13:15
Disclaimer- I am not an Eldar player.

There is a very simple fix for Guardians IMO- Defenders have Lasblasters instead of Catapults, meaning range 24 and S3, and giving them the ranged, defensive role.
At the same time, allow Storm Guardians to swap their pistol for a Catapult if they choose. That way, Storm Guardians become mobile and close ranged, rather than pure combat.
This gives 2 distinct flavours of Guardians, with flexible and clearly defined roles: Range and heavy weapons, or speed and special weapons.

As for new units, I would like to see a 'Warseer', an Eldar who is trapped on the path of the Warlock and has become one of the most destructive Psykers in the galaxy. If the Farseer is the subtle support HQ, this one should be a force of devastation and scatter people before him. As well as the usual nuke powers, give him things to scatter and disperse squads with telekinetics, or enhance his own combat powers. If you want a Witch-Power blade, this is where it deserves to be found.

Flame Boy
22-11-2009, 15:12
I'd like to see various points adjustments.



'Wraithwardens' - Alternate wraithguard unit. Something like: Lose wraithcannons and gain glaive/polearm type weapon. Counts as a power weapon that can re-roll missed attacks, and for each unsaved wound a model suffers it must make a leadership roll, upon a failed roll the model dies and is removed from play. Dire-wraith-powerweapons. The idea is to make them good at taking out low numbers of powerful models (though not vehicles) in close combat, but be rubbish against swarms and at range.. so hopefully a CC wraithguard.



When people mentioned Close Combat Wraithguard, this is exactly as I envisioned them. Wraithguard seem to be a tarpit defensive unit, so rather than competing with Banshees and Scorpions with dual-wielding swords, I pictured a large, powerful staff weapon. Seems like a good idea to me. :-)

nightgant98c
22-11-2009, 15:18
Disclaimer- I am not an Eldar player.

There is a very simple fix for Guardians IMO- Defenders have Lasblasters instead of Catapults, meaning range 24 and S3, and giving them the ranged, defensive role.
At the same time, allow Storm Guardians to swap their pistol for a Catapult if they choose. That way, Storm Guardians become mobile and close ranged, rather than pure combat.
This gives 2 distinct flavours of Guardians, with flexible and clearly defined roles: Range and heavy weapons, or speed and special weapons.

As for new units, I would like to see a 'Warseer', an Eldar who is trapped on the path of the Warlock and has become one of the most destructive Psykers in the galaxy. If the Farseer is the subtle support HQ, this one should be a force of devastation and scatter people before him. As well as the usual nuke powers, give him things to scatter and disperse squads with telekinetics, or enhance his own combat powers. If you want a Witch-Power blade, this is where it deserves to be found.

Not a bad fix for the guardians, but I really like the warseer idea. Warlocks are described as destructive battle psykers, but except for destructor, they aren't.

duffybear1988
22-11-2009, 15:42
Why not make guardian catapults range 18" rapid fire weapons. That way you benefit from a little longer range shooting, and they can still shoot twice at 12". Personally I think that makes the most sense.

Vypers should be the equivalent of SM attack bikes. Maybe the same stats as a normal guardian jetbike, but with 2 wounds and T5 (because of all the armour).

Other than that phoenix lords getting 5+ Inv and making their aspect scoring would work wonders for me.

Decrease the cost of pathfinders as well.

I dont like the idea of combat wraithguard... eldar already have combat units and the WG are good as tarpits as it is.

Silentexile
22-11-2009, 20:21
Less used than Swooping Hawks? I doubt that. It's not a very attractive power in comparison, but atleast it's not entirely useless.

Not a bad idea for ES there, but I think there's no need to make it Barrage or have it scatter.

I'll give you that, but when's the last time anybody actually PURCHASED Eldritch Storm on a non-gimmick build? The only times I've ever seen Eldritch Storm used was with Eldrad, and that's due to him getting all the powers for free.

Edit: I gave it the barrage so that line of sight doesn't effect cover saves, as lightning strikes from above you, not in front of you,(unless there happens to be an active Tesla Coil in front of you, in which case it's your own fault.) The pinning barrage causes is already an effect of Eldritch Storm, so no change caused there.

WH40KAj
22-11-2009, 21:49
From a opponents point of view, make holofields not work in CC, but drop them by 10pts. The emphasis should be on keeping AWAY from combat, not the last turn objective rushes. They also need to do something with guardians to be honest as well. They have so much potential but it seems wasted still. Drop dire avengers to 10pts maybe, give exarchs a little boost. Make fire prisms get a re-roll on their scatter with a matrix system or something, make their twin-linking better.
Eldar still have a pretty good dex, i like it still :)
WH40KAj

Arakanis
22-11-2009, 23:43
I'll give you that, but when's the last time anybody actually PURCHASED Eldritch Storm on a non-gimmick build? The only times I've ever seen Eldritch Storm used was with Eldrad, and that's due to him getting all the powers for free.

Edit: I gave it the barrage so that line of sight doesn't effect cover saves, as lightning strikes from above you, not in front of you,(unless there happens to be an active Tesla Coil in front of you, in which case it's your own fault.) The pinning barrage causes is already an effect of Eldritch Storm, so no change caused there.

I actually do use it. I find it's effective against Imperial Guard as you can flip their tanks around or tear up tightly packed troops.

I also use it in Apoc, because nothing is funnier than flipping a Baneblade around and then blasting it (And yes, you can do this this, ES has a Strength Value and thus Super-heavies are effected)

Sildani
23-11-2009, 02:21
Star Eagle pilots (fine, makes sense) who allow you to drop in a unit, guaranteed, with no risk of deep striking, no reserve roll, going flat out in terms of being hit but not count as moving yourself (explain that one...) as well as give other bonuses, are not a good idea.

There's a few other ones in there which made me go 'huh?' but those are some of the best. I think it was Silidani which kind of epitomised this in saying, paraphrasing, that wave serpents don't need to be changed as they're the best transport in the game. Think about it.

Basically, look more at what is realistic and interesting rather than simply going for buffs for your favourite units. That way madness lies (Chaos 3.5 iron warriors anyone?)

Hi, thanks for commenting on the Star Eagles idea. I figured that a 0-2 restriction costing 60 points apiece would be balanced enough. I agree with Arakanis in that they are a flyer-pilot Aspect, but I see no reason why they couldn't pilot a Falcon for a while before they get into a Nightwing, say.

They would count as moving Fast because I can't think of a situation where'd you want to Deep Strike a fragile tank or Vyper within range of all your opponent's heavy guns without your 4+ cover save, and if you're DSing gunships there you need them to shoot when they arrive. They probably won't survive the opponent's turn intact, after all. Also note that they won't pilot Wave Serpents. I thought that DSing 10 Banshees, an Autarch and a Phoenix Lord right where you needed them without fail was too good for any point cost. They're hotshot pilots with a knack for gunnery - that's how I see the Star Eagles.

Speaking of the Serpent - I think it's about perfect. Durable, fast, well-armed, but expensive for a dedicated transport. One can practically buy three Rhinos for the cost of one Serpent. It's well balanced.

mafty
23-11-2009, 03:11
Im not bothering with 7 pages but Ill add my 0.5 cents which im sure has been said 20 times already :)

1. The obvious one, guardians need a point reduction and improved range. everything else on them leave as it is, their stats are fine.
2. Pheonix lords need a major point reduction and an invul
3. Scorpions could use fleet, virtually EVERYTHING else in the army has fleet
4. Swooping hawks need an update, maybe some additional wargear, or maybe just cost less.
5. Warp spiders need a point reduction, everything else is fine about them
6. Another obvious one is wave serpents need a point reduction
7. Storm guardians could get maybe better stats than regular guardians, maybe better WS and S

Thats about all I can think of, im sure theres some things that could be done about falcons and fire prisms but I dont think their terribly broken

Squallish
23-11-2009, 04:59
Hi everyone. As inspired by this thread and the previous one from October, I wanted to invite everyone to the discussion I am running in the Rules Development forum for a Fandex. My intent is to send it in to GW at some point, as Hellebore (I believe) did before the 4th edition one.

The link is in my sig.

Emeraldw
23-11-2009, 05:33
After some thinking I believe that most things in the list just really need a cost reduction. Wave serpents aren't worth 100 minimum. Dire avengers can be more than marines with having to buy the exarch, wargear and powers. I would like to see the exarch built into a squad and the powers built into the wargear. Like if I take 2 Shuriken Catapults, I get bladestorm. Take shimmershield, get Defend. I wouldn't mind a CCW/BP but I am not sure if that is really neccessary.

I said some things in the last thread like this but really, I just want a price reduction on a lot of stuff and some modest improvements to stuff and I would be quite happy.

shabbadoo
23-11-2009, 11:27
While perusing the latest posts, I came to the same(or similar) conclusion as Emeraldw regarding Aspect Warriors.

The Exarchs should be bought as part of the minimum squad size. Exarch powers shouldn't be taken and then given to the squad. For instance, Bladestorm. This is a technique that Dire Avengers train in. They don't need the Exarch to order them to use that fire mode- they already know it. That should be a unit ability. The only Exarch dependent abilities should be the ones linked to their personal equipment. If they have twin-catapults they can also Bladestorm along with the unit, but if they take the other equipment then only they get the variant abilities for it. The rest of the squad doesn't suddenly become lobotomized and forget how to Bladestorm because the Exarch didn't purchase it.

"Where was that special fire selector again? If only we had the instruction manual, or an Exarch with us who had read the instruction manual. Orks incoming! D'oh!"

...or

"The Exarch just took a bullet to the face! How do we Bladestorm again? I just did it a couple minutes ago, but I'm totally brain farting here! HELP ME REMEMBER!!!".

:rolleyes: :p

I use Dire Avengers as an example, but the same goes for the other Aspect Warriors. Do the various Aspect Temples train these units, or do they just give them fancy equipment and maybe train them? For now, they maybe train them, which is rather lame. So, standard equipment and training for the Aspects, and a few equipment options for the Exarchs, but not with unit abilities tied that equipment or to the Exarch themselves.

Guardians either need a point reduction, or 18" range shuriken catapults, but not both. Both would make them beyond good. Dire Avengers are great as is, and certainly don't need a point reduction; especially if Aspect training is incorporated into the basic cost of the unit(might need a slight point bump to the base unit cost actually).

Poseidal
23-11-2009, 11:43
In my rewrite (there's a version somewhere on these boards, I haven't made a pdf of the latest one, which adds Exodite Riders and not much else), Exarchs are IC which are purchased 1 / Aspect Squad (same aspect), and can't join other units except for ICs. Aspect abilities are SQUAD abilities, and Exarch abilities are like the old ones, things like +1 Attack etc. Exarchs always know the abilities bought for the squad, so a Dire Avenger Exarch who's squad knows Defend also knows Defend.

Aspects and Guardians were all tweaked, and made to have distinct roles (as far as I could). They all use existing / historic options, though I changed the way some weapons worked.

for example

Hawks get AP3 Lasblasters
Spider Deathspinners ignore cover, which is the new Deathspinner weapon type thing (like the Shadow Weaver etc).

Hawks hunt in the open fields, spiders corner their prey in small spaces.

Emeraldw
23-11-2009, 14:36
Topic for this post: Autarchs and Guardians.

Autarchs:
Autarchs are a cool concept that don't work out that well outside of needing a +1 for reserves (which is useful when your going second, staring down a bunch of powerful IG weapons). But isn't something I would buy generally.

Part of the problem is that they don't really add something to the squad they are attached too. Ranged weapon wise is meaningless as shooting is dependent on the weapons they can get and Autarchs don't get powerful ranged weaponry for them to sit back and blast so that's out. Close combat is where I feel they would be most useful. Outside a Laser lance, jetbike build, Autarchs are not powerful in Close combat. If he is a CC character, then he should be able to enchance damage output. But compared to a farseer this is simply not the case. Further, 6 attacks is awesome but once you count in 1/3 miss and 1/3 chance to wound (or .5 against T4 but I prefer a power weapon) it doesn't end up being a very large increase in CC potential. Against things that I would wound on a 4+ with a PW, I don't really need extra CC power.

Autarchs could really benefit from getting access to Exarch wargear. Firepike + Executioner and Mandiblaster? Now we are talking a flexible and strong guy.

The other option is to take the route some have purposed and make him more like an IG general who uses high level strategies. To me I am thinking things along the lines of Apocalypse formations that grant bonuses for taking groups of stuff. Thats just an idea but I can see how either or both approaches could work. The only issue with the second approach is that the bonuses have to be pretty good to get past having a subpar Character and not taking a farseer.

Guardians:
I will be upfront. I don't like Guardians. I can see some value in Flamer template spam but I just feel like Dire avengers are just flat out more useful most of the time and more flexible. That said, I will add some.

Armor wise it isn't a big deal as I don't see guardians being the up and in your face unit troop choice. Elites and Dire Avengers do that. Guardians to me should sit back and shoot. I don't know about 18" range Shuriken Catapults as they are still guardians with BS 3. I would like to see Guardians with 2 discounted heavy weapons that shoot at BS 4. This would seriously increase long shooting potential of the unit and the army by providing more long range shooting, which is primarily in the Heavy Support section right now.

If they did that, even I would consider taking 1 or 2 squads for extra Missle Launchers or bright lances (I play against a lot of mechanized) but even for orks, 4 relatively cheap scatter lasers at BS 4 and being troops on objectives isn't a bad deal.

You could also get a semi eldar infantry force going with guardian spaming Heavy weapons.

If the costs to Weapons are changed and they can have 2, I won't complain about having 12" guns and 5+ armor at 8 points a piece.

stahly
23-11-2009, 14:57
Rules:
- Do something with Guardians. Give them 24" rapid fire catapults. Make warlocks or their powers cheaper, rework warlock powers for more resilience. I'd to see an Ulthwe special character that upgrades one squad to Black Guardians.
- Give Autarchs better wargear. In CC they are pants without a jetbike/lance combo. Give them executioners to stand a little chance against (chaos) marine characters.
- Rebalance heavy weapons. With new blast rules star cannons need 3 shots and maybe minus 5pts. Make shuriken cannons AP4 and maybe S5 to differentiate them more from Scatter Lasers. Maybe make brightlances always fire as twin-linked to give them a point with BS3 or reduce costs.
- Some tweaks here and there.

Models:
- Plastic Jetbikes, box of three like Ork Warbikes, with parts for shurican cannon and Warlock, maybe even Shining Spears.
- Plastic Wraithguard, box of 5 like Terminators.
- Full plastic Fire Prism, maybe with another turret option and please let there be holofields on the sprues somewhere.
- Recut plastic Guardian box with parts for storm guardians.
- New metal Warlocks, Warp Spiders and some new characters.

DeadlySquirrel
23-11-2009, 21:26
I havent read EVERY post so sorry if I repeat some points:

Autrach: Fix the Master Strategist so it actually does something. Define his role as either support or CC guy. Unique equipment

Farseer: More than 1 power per turn as standard, Singingspear becomes a force weapon aswell as it's current benefits.

Warlocks: Pretty ok, perhaps better phycic powers or a stat boost?

Avatar: Lower it's cost so it's actually worth taking

Guardians: Better guns and armour, weapon platform becomes opptional again. Better BS or WS if its a storm squad.

Dire Avengers: CC and pistol aswell as their current guns.

Exarchs: Perhaps make a High Exarch that makes one of it's aspects troops. HQ choice with better stats. Or perhaps an Exarch Squad? 5 man squad containing a mix of any Exarchs?

On the topic of BS4 falcons. They're piloted by Guardians if you read the fluff so they would have the same BS

And generally wishlisting here but: divine plastic models that absolutly rock. Hands down.

Zaonite
23-11-2009, 21:30
Can I kindly point out one thing to everyone suggesting Rapid Fire on shuricats?

Rapid Fire would be detrimental to the eldar as a whole, they need to be mobile to stay alive. The only units that should stand still are dark reapers and those on objectives.
That's why I'm in favour of making them 18" range. They are better than a storm bolter in the fluff.

Emeraldw
23-11-2009, 21:37
Deadly I am unsure what you mean about the Avatar as it is already cheap as chips for how awesome it is.

@Zionate: Could you explain to me what about 18" Shuriken catapults makes guardians competitive?

Even with 18" guns, they still suck compared to Dire Avengers. What role do they fill? To me, Guardians might be 8 points but with a 5+ armor, BS3 and a (not so cheap) heavy weapon. And that is assuming nothing but that changes!

Dire Avengers are awesome and already fill that role, with BP/CCW as other people suggested there is even less reason to bother with guardians. I really think Guardians need to fill a role in the army that something else doesn't already or help fill a gap.

I already admitted by bias but I just don't see how this makes guardians suddenly useful.

Squallish
23-11-2009, 21:39
I gave Defenders 24" Rapid Fire catapults + Relentless (which also covers the platform moving and firing!). This lets them keep their move+fire, and defend.

DeadlySquirrel
23-11-2009, 21:47
By lower pts cost on the avatar i mean tlower the cost of it, I beleive that the avatar isnt really worth taking and perhaps by dropping it points it wpould be more worthwile to take

Emeraldw
23-11-2009, 21:49
Warlocks:

Warlocks are a neat unit. There are really a couple reasons I don't find them useful all the time:

1. Farseer Required: to really make warlocks effective and to an extent I mean survivable, fortune is needed.

2. Cost: Warlocks start out at 25 for a relatively poor statline. The reason we take the suckers is for their gear. 4++, Witchblade and a cool psychic power, which for 25 points isn't so bad but the psychic powers can be expensive. Destructor makes it a 40 point model and I would strongly argue that isn't so useful.

Warlocks I believe should remain at 25 a piece, but get a free power, they are psykers after all. Also, buying and using them like Wolf Guard sounds like a great idea to me. I would love to enhance/embolden other troops. currently only Guardians gain the benefit and that isn't exceptionally useful beyond perhaps embolden (the others really aren't that useful, except a warlock with enhance on storm guardians, but your giving up destructor).

Enhance on Banshees, Scorpions and even Dire avengers with BP/CCW makes them so much more useful and powerful without changing anything to those units (Beyond DA's, but I would still love to have embolden on DA's to be sure to keep them around).

@ Deadly: See I don't understand why you are saying that. It has an awesome statline, 12" fearless bubble, 3+/4++ and immunity to melta. That is a greater deamon for far less and does a lot more.

DeadlySquirrel
23-11-2009, 21:56
@ Emeraldw, maybe its just a personal thing, but i dont see the appeal for avatars. Sorry if it appeared trollish, but it was something i thought other people thought too =]

Arakanis
23-11-2009, 22:13
I want to talk a little about Falcons.

It's easy to forget that Falcons are the primary battle tank of the Eldar Craftworlds, and the reason for that is it's basically used as an anti-infantry secondary transport.

As far as BS 4 goes for it, Fire Prisms have BS 4, so I really don't see how it would be a stretch for the Falcons.

Here's the main problem with it. The Pulse Laser. Originally, this was basically a Heavy 3 Lascannon. I could see it as being Range 60" Strength 8, Ap 2, Heavy 3 Lance.

Now, you might say that's pretty powerful. Truthfully though, it's a weapon that shows up only on one vehicle of which you can only have three. It's not nearly as horrific as the stuff the Guard can get or the Tau.

As far as holofields go, I think with the SMF nerf, the current holofield wargear is fluffy, and balanced (It's pretty expensive)
I'd almost have it come standard and just include the point costs in the tank.

It would be nice if the Falcon could take a second weapon and use it. So maybe some sort of co-axle rules for the second heavy weapon? Just a thought.

Falcons really should be power houses on par with the MBTs of other armies.

EDIT: The Avatar is insanely good for it's points, however, I really think it needs to be buffed and the points brought up.

EDIT: part 2. What if no Eldar vehicle had to twin-link their weapons? If you took two of the same weapon, it would always be a seperate weapon, perhaps because of advanced targeting arrays and heightened Eldar reflexes.

Emeraldw
23-11-2009, 23:23
@ Emeraldw, maybe its just a personal thing, but i dont see the appeal for avatars. Sorry if it appeared trollish, but it was something i thought other people thought too =]

Fair enough. Your welcome to say it sucks, I just usually like to hear why which is why I asked.

Aethernaut
24-11-2009, 04:51
As far as BS 4 goes for it, Fire Prisms have BS 4, so I really don't see how it would be a stretch for the Falcons.
Agreed.

As it is now the pulse laser would be a pretty solid weapon with BS4, but it could use a boost also. Maybe something like:

48" S: 8 AP: 1 Heavy 2

I think the Avatar is a great choice for the points, especially now that he can run. :) I've only used him once, but he sure tore it up.

On the subject of warlocks, I think that rune armor could do a little more for the model's cost. Maybe conferring something similar to the zoanthrope's psychic shielding(armor save as well as an invulnerable one). The Protection provided by rune armor could be a 3+ "armor" save, and a 4++ too.

etancross
24-11-2009, 14:56
How about making witchblades/S.spears power weapons? Its cool i can blow up a Dreadnaught with one, but sucks that I could possibly die to the hands of a standard marine with the same model.

shabbadoo
24-11-2009, 15:13
Gotta drop the 2+ wounding bit then. Otherwise I would be fine with them being power weapons.

Emeraldw
24-11-2009, 15:29
How about making witchblades/S.spears power weapons? Its cool i can blow up a Dreadnaught with one, but sucks that I could possibly die to the hands of a standard marine with the same model.

I agree whole heartedly. The two ways I would like to see it is either as a Power Weapon with a 4+ to wound or give the option of the 2+ or a force weapon. Both would be quite useful. Though, they are a BBB weapon so I don't think it will change.

etancross
24-11-2009, 15:38
Armor wise it isn't a big deal as I don't see guardians being the up and in your face unit troop choice. Elites and Dire Avengers do that. Guardians to me should sit back and shoot. I don't know about 18" range Shuriken Catapults as they are still guardians with BS 3. I would like to see Guardians with 2 discounted heavy weapons that shoot at BS 4. This would seriously increase long shooting potential of the unit and the army by providing more long range shooting, which is primarily in the Heavy Support section right now.

If they did that, even I would consider taking 1 or 2 squads for extra Missle Launchers or bright lances (I play against a lot of mechanized) but even for orks, 4 relatively cheap scatter lasers at BS 4 and being troops on objectives isn't a bad deal.

You could also get a semi eldar infantry force going with guardian spaming Heavy weapons.

If the costs to Weapons are changed and they can have 2, I won't complain about having 12" guns and 5+ armor at 8 points a piece.

This would be a flatout AMAZING idea, that way it would also reinforce the fluff which is Guardians are citizen militia, and the longer range weapons are to keep them back and shooting because the aspect warriors are the one's up front and in your face.

awesome idea!

DeadlySquirrel
24-11-2009, 17:57
agreeing with etancross here, the current guardians are a bit naff tbh. but this, this an awsome idea

Fable
24-11-2009, 18:07
1) Eldritch Storm. It needs to be beefier. It needs to be scary. It needs to be a longer range power.

2) Mind War. It is too short range and too useless to be used most the time. Cover saves and invuls work against it and any model you'd want to use it on has one or the other... plus you need to out roll your opponent after first making the psychic test and getting within its short range.

3) Heavy weapons need to be cheaper. All of them.

4) Tanks need to be cheaper. All of them.

5) Holo-Fields need a new mechanic. A simple one. "reroll cover save if you moved" Viola, it's just like having "Fortune" cast on you.

6) The falcon should be able to fire off both the weapons on its turret when it moves 12" or less. (in the same way the las/plas pred does it).

7) The Avatar - Str 8. Fleet. Immunity to plas.

8) Dire Avengers... Plasma Grenades.

9) Some unique and versatile wargear options for Farseers and Autarchs. Fusion pistols or WB/SS that counts as power weapon or something... something! And for the sake of the gods give Farseers a second attack!

10) Bonesingers as a fairly cheap 2 wound HQ. Why does it seem that no matter the size of the scouting party or assault there is only a Farseer, Autarch or Avatar leading them?

etancross
24-11-2009, 19:41
lol im starting to have a lot of idea's hit me what do you guys think of these:

Heres a few thoughts

Dire Sword – Because so many things have immunity to Instance Death (Nid’s, Daemons etc) how about make it so the Dire Sword actually “RIPS” the soul from the victim and Casts it into the warp causing the model to be removed from play.

Reaper Launcher: 36” S5 AP5 assault 2, OR 48” S6 AP3 Heavy 2 - This way they could provide cover fire for advancing units, and it would give Dark Reapers something they REALLY need which is mobility, and the ability to move and fire.

Give Swooping Hawks a 3+ save, I mean come on they are use for anti-tank, they have amazing weapons for anti-tank but to try to get them near any tank is suscide because they will be mowed down quickly and painfully.

Sunrifle and lasblasters are some of the most useless weapons in the game I mean str 3, ap5? WTF! These guns are garbage unless i'm missing something but I don’t think I am.

Squallish
24-11-2009, 19:52
Dire Sword – Because so many things have immunity to Instance Death (Nid’s, Daemons etc) how about make it so the Dire Sword actually “RIPS” the soul from the victim and Casts it into the warp causing the model to be removed from play.

Doesn't quite fit in with my idea of a Dire Avenger's weapon... but I do agree it needs a buff of some kind!

In my Fandex, I have it as: +1S, Power weapon, Ld test for ID is taken at the end of the combat after modifiers.. so if you win the Assault, you're more likely to cut down that leader.

Poseidal
24-11-2009, 20:08
I'd just make the Dire Sword like the Blade of Realities from Fantasy.

It's less potent in 40k thanks to higher average leadership, but it'll be more effective than it's current version.

DeadlySquirrel
24-11-2009, 20:14
might i ask, what is the Blade of Realities?

shabbadoo
25-11-2009, 16:27
6) The falcon should be able to fire off both the weapons on its turret when it moves 12" or less. (in the same way the las/plas pred does it).

A "las/plas pred"? If you mean the Predator tank, there is no such thing as a 'las/plas pred". If you mean a Razorback then you are making stuff up, as that tank can not move and fire both of its weapons. The twin-linked plasma guns are not coaxial weapons. If a Razorback moves it can fire either its lascannon or its twin-linked plasma guns. To fire both it must remain stationary. So, no rule breaking for the Falcon "just because".

Poseidal
25-11-2009, 16:35
might i ask, what is the Blade of Realities?

It's a Lizardman magic item. It works similar to the Dire Sword, but triggers on a successful hit rather than unsaved wound.

Caanos
25-11-2009, 17:23
I have to say, giving Farseers/Warlocks the ability to where their powers can't be nullified is a little broken. Once that happens, every other race is going to be wanting it. For instance, if they get the ability why don't 'Nids get it as well? The Hive Mind drives pskyers CRAZY when they try to look into it, they make communication via astropaths and such useless, and people HEAR the chittering of the Hive Mind in their MIND. Surely, 'Nids are the most POWERFUL pskyers for these reasons. Sure, your Farseer can flip a tank, but 'Nids can make him crazy.

Back on topic though. What I would like to see if a few points reduction around the board. Currently, I think Wraithguard are too expensive for what they do, and same with Swooping Hawks. Another thing is plastic models. I LIKE metal for the HQs and that, but I can imagine how much of a pain it is to buy multiple metal models just to fill out one squad (Gargoyles for me). They could also improve some of the weapons as well, such as the Scorpion Exarch's weapons, and possible the Banshee's ones as well.

Gwyidion
25-11-2009, 17:27
I could see that mechanic for asurmen - the model/unit takes as many leadership tests as he scores hits, and suffers one ID wound for each failure. That would be .... decent, though a lot of units are going to save 33/36 wounds.

incarna
25-11-2009, 18:04
Guardian Defenders should have 18" Shuriken Catapults and be able to purchase one heavy weapons platform for every 5 members of the squad. Given these enhancements, their cost should still be reduced to 7 points per model.

Fable
25-11-2009, 18:07
A "las/plas pred"? If you mean the Predator tank, there is no such thing as a 'las/plas pred". If you mean a Razorback then you are making stuff up, as that tank can not move and fire both of its weapons. The twin-linked plasma guns are not coaxial weapons. If a Razorback moves it can fire either its lascannon or its twin-linked plasma guns. To fire both it must remain stationary. So, no rule breaking for the Falcon "just because".

I was thinking las/plas raz. But to my knowledge it was bought as a single weapon and both fired together as one. I'll have to reread it and see if play at the shop needs to be adjusted.

As for "just because" rule breaking... no it should be a special ability of the falcon. Your argument is like saying that ATSKNF shouldn't prevent marines from being wiped out after losing hand to hand like other units might "just because". No, it is not "just because" it is a result of a special rule. Or do you think the Monolith always being able to fire even when it gets Stunned or Shaken results is "just because" rule breaking? In essence do you think every codex is chock full of "just because" rule breaking? The two weapons on the turret that have a dedicated gunner BOTH should be able to fire at a single target when it moves. The falcon is currently vastly over costed, a change like that could make it worth its points and restore it to the position of Main Battle Tank (which is what the codex refers to it as). Currently the second gun is just a tax that Eldar players are forced to pay. Lets remember, the Leman Russ got a points reduction and some fun special rules tacked on so... it's not out of the question.

Caanos
25-11-2009, 18:08
Guardian Defenders should have 18" Shuriken Catapults and be able to purchase one heavy weapons platform for every 5 members of the squad. Given these enhancements, their cost should still be reduced to 7 points per model.

A heavy weapon for every 5 men, longer range catapults, AND a points decrease? As much as I love Guardians, I think that's a bit much. That's 4 heavy weapons per 20 Guardians. Maybe a heavy weapon per 10 men and a points reduction. They don't need the longer range. They're defenders as the name suggest.

Vepr
25-11-2009, 18:18
Actually knowing a little about what is in the codex further out than a week before it is released.

Sorros
25-11-2009, 18:39
I have to say, giving Farseers/Warlocks the ability to where their powers can't be nullified is a little broken. Once that happens, every other race is going to be wanting it. For instance, if they get the ability why don't 'Nids get it as well? The Hive Mind drives pskyers CRAZY when they try to look into it, they make communication via astropaths and such useless, and people HEAR the chittering of the Hive Mind in their MIND. Surely, 'Nids are the most POWERFUL pskyers for these reasons. Sure, your Farseer can flip a tank, but 'Nids can make him crazy.

Back on topic though. What I would like to see if a few points reduction around the board. Currently, I think Wraithguard are too expensive for what they do, and same with Swooping Hawks. Another thing is plastic models. I LIKE metal for the HQs and that, but I can imagine how much of a pain it is to buy multiple metal models just to fill out one squad (Gargoyles for me). They could also improve some of the weapons as well, such as the Scorpion Exarch's weapons, and possible the Banshee's ones as well.

The Eldar psychers are more powerful than most Tyranids, only the hive mind is possibly more powerful (although, I'm sure that Eldrad could take one :evilgrin:). The likelihood of an actual hive mind being close enough to influence Eldar soldiers is very slim, so no, Eldar should still be the best psychers. Also, its usually those inferior humans that get driven crazy. Eldar have much better psychic defenses :rolleyes:

incarna
25-11-2009, 19:02
A heavy weapon for every 5 men, longer range catapults, AND a points decrease? As much as I love Guardians, I think that's a bit much. That's 4 heavy weapons per 20 Guardians. Maybe a heavy weapon per 10 men and a points reduction. They don't need the longer range. They're defenders as the name suggest.

I don’t really see 7-point guardian squads consisting of 20 models and 4 heavy weapons as that out of sync with a comparably priced squad of 6-point Boyz with some bells and whistles. It may seem powerful at first but vulnerability to CC and flamers can be serious cause for concern.

Badger[Fr]
25-11-2009, 19:12
I fail to see why Eldar players are so upset by psychic defences. I blame it on the hype surrounding the new SW Codex and the oh so awesome Runepriest.

Psychic defences have been nerfed since 4th Edition, and very few armies can afford them in the first place: neither the Tau nor the Ork nor the Dark Eldar nor the Necron nor Chaos (Daemons and CSM) can reliably negate Psychic Powers. We don't know what the next Tyranid book will feature. The Imperial Guard still depends on the Inquisition, and it may very well change if a new =I= book is released. Evenetually, we're left with loyalist Space Marines of all kinds, and the Inquisition. Big deal.


I don’t really see 7-point guardian squads consisting of 20 models and 4 heavy weapons as that out of sync with a comparably priced squad of 6-point Boyz with some bells and whistles. It may seem powerful at first but vulnerability to CC and flamers can be serious cause for concern.
Such a comparison is ridiculous, considering how little the two units have in common. You'd be better off comparing Guardians to, say, Imperial Guardsmen. For a mere two points per model, Guardians get +1 Ld, +1 I, a much better gun (even more if said gun gets a 18" range, as some suggested), and can field twice as many not so heavy weapons as an Infantry squad. Do we really need Eldar horde armies?

If Eldar players want more Heavy Weapons, they'd better field a Support Weapons Battery.

Caanos
25-11-2009, 19:31
The Eldar psychers are more powerful than most Tyranids, only the hive mind is possibly more powerful (although, I'm sure that Eldrad could take one :evilgrin:). The likelihood of an actual hive mind being close enough to influence Eldar soldiers is very slim, so no, Eldar should still be the best psychers. Also, its usually those inferior humans that get driven crazy. Eldar have much better psychic defenses :rolleyes:

True, and I agree with a lot of that. However, there is also the fact that warp travel to an area 'caught' by the Hive Fleets is generally known as impossible. That's not the matter of the Hive Mind, but rather the collective psychic energy as a whole.

Non-fluff whys, I just think it'd be broken to be "Oh, we can make you fail your test much more often; but you can't do anything to stop ours."

shabbadoo
25-11-2009, 20:05
I was thinking las/plas raz. But to my knowledge it was bought as a single weapon and both fired together as one. I'll have to reread it and see if play at the shop needs to be adjusted.

They are separate weapons, even though they are both on the turret mount. Note that they are also counted as separate for purposes of Weapon Destroyed hits, as per the FAQ. If they were considered to be one weapon this would not be the case. Cheatin' Space Marine gitz.

I agree that it would be better if the Falcon could fire both of its turret weapons. The best solution to that would be to make the smaller weapon co-axial. That would also increase the accuracy of the Falcon's Pulse laser, because if the co-axial weapon hits, the Pulse Laser hits more accurately(it becomes +1 to hit I think). No need for a BS increase to the Falcon then either.

Sildani
25-11-2009, 20:38
I have to say, giving Farseers/Warlocks the ability to where their powers can't be nullified is a little broken. Once that happens, every other race is going to be wanting it. For instance, if they get the ability why don't 'Nids get it as well? The Hive Mind drives pskyers CRAZY when they try to look into it, they make communication via astropaths and such useless, and people HEAR the chittering of the Hive Mind in their MIND. Surely, 'Nids are the most POWERFUL pskyers for these reasons. Sure, your Farseer can flip a tank, but 'Nids can make him crazy.



True, and I agree with a lot of that. However, there is also the fact that warp travel to an area 'caught' by the Hive Fleets is generally known as impossible. That's not the matter of the Hive Mind, but rather the collective psychic energy as a whole.

Non-fluff whys, I just think it'd be broken to be "Oh, we can make you fail your test much more often; but you can't do anything to stop ours."

Well, the idea was to give Craftworld Eldar the one thing that separated them from all the other races - psychics. See, the Eldar used to be the psychic/fast/shooty/ancient techy race. Tau came along and snapped up the shooting moniker (and so did IG), Dark Eldar grabbed fast hands down, and Necrons took ancient/technological. That left us with psychics.

Now, you have a point that taken as a whole, there aren't many armies that can affect psychic powers. My counterpoint would be: How many times do you see those armies opposite you on the table? In the case of Marines, it's a helluva lot. Inquisition? Well, where I used to game, quite a bit I'm happy to say. Most of those took Librarians or an equivalent, and the nasty Psychic Hood. The thing crippled my Farseers, and as a consequence, my army. Sometimes you NEED Fortune or Doom to work, especially if you've paid some 300 points to do it.

Now, look back at my suggestion. The power will only be "forced" on a 4+, it's not guaranteed. The Farseer who can do it costs 125 points base ,which might be a bit cheap, I'll admit. Only with Eldrad is it guaranteed, and he costs - what, 250-275?

So for a premium, the Eldar get back their last advantage. They've been portrayed in all the background ever written as the galaxy's most powerful psykers. I believe this puts them back into their rightful spot.

Badger[Fr]
25-11-2009, 21:18
A much more subtle way to achieve this would be to give the Eldar Psychic Powers a far greater range, so that you could avoid the 24" Psychic Hood bubble. I still remember how the hamfisted synapse rules of the 4th edition Tyranid Codex initiated a new trend that eventually made Instant Death pointless, so I'd rather avoid another exception to the core rules.


The thing crippled my Farseers, and as a consequence, my army. Sometimes you NEED Fortune or Doom to work, especially if you've paid some 300 points to do it.

Well, it actually proves that the current Eldar Codex depends far too much on Farseers. Farseers should be strong (and they currently are), but not the straight no-brainers they currently are.

Gwyidion
25-11-2009, 21:35
Making farseers powers have long/unlimited range (at least fortune/doom/guide) would make for an interesting requirement - keeping the enemy librarians/priests stay away from the farseer. Given the general short range of eldar weapons, this would basically require giving the farseer a bodyguard (so he doesn't get popped by a missile) and keeping the unit as far from the enemy as possible. Which is, incidentally, exactly the way i envision a farseer taking part in a battle.

As it stands now, generally any targets that would be suitable for a psychic power - any of them, are going to be close to the enemy, which means you are usually in range of the psychic hoods.

Necro Angelo
25-11-2009, 21:35
;4159923']


Well, it actually proves that the current Eldar Codex depends far too much on Farseers. Farseers should be strong (and they currently are), but not the straight no-brainers they currently are.

yes they should. the eldar rely on their psychic leaders in battle, and actually I find that any of the other HQ choices work excellenty in conjunction with one Farseer. Both my choices are always occupied by farseer and avatar who both influence my army enormously.

Fable
25-11-2009, 21:48
I don't mind the new psychic hood so much anymore. It has something it needed for a while... a 24" range. One thing that does disappoint though is that now every psyker that carries one has a LD 10. The 24" range really does reduce a lot of the problem. I do still occasionally play marine or IG players that use the INQ specifically to avoid the 24" range restriction. Maybe there will be a new INQ book that removes that silly Allies rule alltogether some time before 6th edition.

I think the biggest problem with the Eldar Psychic Powers are that they just about all have serious issues.

Doom
This is the one spell I think that doesn't have any real issues, solid range, fair point cost if a little high, but only by a point or two, and solid effect.

Fortune
This one is high priced, but produces a solid effect that can benefit any model in your force with the new SMF rule, however the 6" maximum range is far too short. It might as well say "on the farseer and any unit he is attached to." It should be 18." If the Farseer is going to be a support character he should be able to do so without offering himself up to the enemy.

Guide
This suffers the same exact issues as fortune so... ditto.

Mind War
Too short a range. Too minimal an effect. First off it should be longer range and ignore cover. It should have a simpler mechanic like roll a D6 and the target model needs to save that many wounds, invul saves are allowed. Heck, even a more complicated one that makes sense (for every point of LD the farseer has over target model they subtract 1 from their leadership... they then take a LD test, if they fail they are removed from play). Right now it's "situational" at best.

Eldritch Storm
Too short a range, Too minimal an effect, too high a price. In short this power should be devastating. It should be the power that people most hate to see cast by the Eldar. It should remain expensive... but also be worth it. Give it an ap of 3 and make it "heavy 1 Large Blast".

One thing I can say about Eldar psykers is that most opponents don't need to take account of them. They just aren't a serious threat. If they make the powers more formidable and then add an attack to the Farseer (1 attack is just a joke) and make witchblades and singing spears count as powerweapons when weilded by a Farseer I think they'd become much more respectable HQs.

Arakanis
25-11-2009, 22:25
As for the Shuriken Catapult range increase, a lot of people are saying "They're Militia, They're Defenders, They don't need good weapons"
Why not? Really, think about it. There is no place in Eldar strategy for a large squad of low toughness, low armor save troops with ho-hum ballistic skill and knife fight range guns. The Heavy Weapon really does nothing for them, because then they are forced to stay OUT of their small arms range to fire off one or two heavy shots per turn. Buying them a transport is out of the question, because a Wave Serpent costs more than the entire squad and honestly is a better support platform. Without decent firing range on their weapons and some reasonable protection, there is no reason any Eldar player would ever take them over Dire Avengers in a Wave Serpent. Ever. Period.

Now, they should probably be slightly more expensive for all this, but not by a whole bunch, after all, we want them to be an attractive choice compared to D. Avengers.

As for the Dire Blade.... someone was mention that it should removed enemy models from play as it RIPS their soul out? It already DOES that. Except you have to fail a Leadership check to die (not instant death, just gone), which sucks because Ld10 unmodified rarely fails.

Holofields: Why change them? The mechanic is quirky, but far more interesting than YET ANOTHER SAVE. It's not particularly broken in 5th either.

Bunnahabhain
25-11-2009, 23:48
I don't mind the new psychic hood so much anymore. It has something it needed for a while... a 24" range. One thing that does disappoint though is that now every psyker that carries one has a LD 10. The 24" range really does reduce a lot of the problem. I do still occasionally play marine or IG players that use the INQ specifically to avoid the 24" range restriction. Maybe there will be a new INQ book that removes that silly Allies rule alltogether some time before 6th edition.
the silly allies rule are still the only way a guard force can have any counter -psychic measures beyond just shooting them...



I think the biggest problem with the Eldar Psychic Powers are that they just about all have serious issues.
All? Really?


Doom
This is the one spell I think that doesn't have any real issues, solid range, fair point cost if a little high, but only by a point or two, and solid effect.

Fortune
This one is high priced, but produces a solid effect that can benefit any model in your force with the new SMF rule, however the 6" maximum range is far too short. It might as well say "on the farseer and any unit he is attached to." It should be 18." If the Farseer is going to be a support character he should be able to do so without offering himself up to the enemy.
So not all of them then...


Guide
This suffers the same exact issues as fortune so... ditto.

Mind War
Too short a range. Too minimal an effect. First off it should be longer range and ignore cover. It should have a simpler mechanic like roll a D6 and the target model needs to save that many wounds, invul saves are allowed. Heck, even a more complicated one that makes sense (for every point of LD the farseer has over target model they subtract 1 from their leadership... they then take a LD test, if they fail they are removed from play). Right now it's "situational" at best.

Eldritch Storm
Too short a range, Too minimal an effect, too high a price. In short this power should be devastating. It should be the power that people most hate to see cast by the Eldar. It should remain expensive... but also be worth it. Give it an ap of 3 and make it "heavy 1 Large Blast".


One thing I can say about Eldar psykers is that most opponents don't need to take account of them. They just aren't a serious threat. If they make the powers more formidable and then add an attack to the Farseer (1 attack is just a joke) and make witchblades and singing spears count as powerweapons when weilded by a Farseer I think they'd become much more respectable HQs.

Farseers are respectable HQs, who you do need to take account of. You don't have to be a CC monster to be good, and it adds variety to the game that not every HQ is.

The only reason they get ignored by enemies sometimes is that they are either too hard to get to- jetlocks-, or are not the pressing threat that has to die now, unlike that falcon full of fire dragons...

Emeraldw
26-11-2009, 00:25
Personally I want the army to move AWAY from Farseers being needed to do stuff. Useful and powerful, certainly, but I don't want my banshees to need a farseer to beat down some marines, admittedly they don't need one but they do take a lot of damage.

24" range on fortune and guide would be sexy though.

Arakanis
26-11-2009, 01:08
On the Subject of costing, fleet is no longer worth nearly what it was. Infantry models should become cheaper as a result. Something to think about.

Squallish
26-11-2009, 01:26
In my Fandex, I gave Eldar a USR (for units that currently have Fleet) that grants them Fleet which is a minimum 3". This would give Eldar reliable speed, and a lot less guesswork for Assault distances.

For the most part, though, the models got a slight price reduction or buffs to make them worth what they cost.

Emeraldw
26-11-2009, 01:40
On the Subject of costing, fleet is no longer worth nearly what it was. Infantry models should become cheaper as a result. Something to think about.

Your right, Fleet isn't as valuable for us as it used to be. Running and Fleet itself make our own fleet less valuable. That said, I don't think improving fleet really fixes our mobility issue. Vehicles in my mind should cover that gap.

Solar_Eclipse
26-11-2009, 08:49
I made Fleet in general D3+3"

Arakanis
26-11-2009, 09:04
I almost think that D6+3" would be acceptable. It would make non-Mech Eldar more potent at least.

spekkiebig
26-11-2009, 12:15
I almost think that D6+3" would be acceptable. It would make non-Mech Eldar more potent at least.

I finished 6th on the Dutch GT with a non Mech-Eldar list, so they are potent as long as you now what you are doing! :D

The Codex i just fine and needs only a litle tweeking. The following units shoud be made more usefull through minor changes in points or rules:
- (Storm) Guardians
- Wraithguard
- Swooping Hawks
- Shining Spears
- Support weapon platforms

The Farseer and Warlocks should get rules changes simply because the should be the best psykers in the universe an d now are not anymore.

I'd also like new models for:
- Jetbikes
- Wraithguard

Not to much to complain about for us Eldar players i guess.

Necro Angelo
26-11-2009, 15:06
I finished 6th on the Dutch GT with a non Mech-Eldar list, so they are potent as long as you now what you are doing! :D

The Codex i just fine and needs only a litle tweeking. The following units shoud be made more usefull through minor changes in points or rules:
- (Storm) Guardians
- Wraithguard
- Swooping Hawks
- Shining Spears
- Support weapon platforms

The Farseer and Warlocks should get rules changes simply because the should be the best psykers in the universe an d now are not anymore.

I'd also like new models for:
- Jetbikes
- Wraithguard

Not to much to complain about for us Eldar players i guess.

you sir have it spot on.

Sorros
26-11-2009, 15:34
And give us a box of 10 storm guardians, not 8 :wtf:

Badger[Fr]
26-11-2009, 15:36
One thing that does disappoint though is that now every psyker that carries one has a LD 10.
Lord Inquisitors and Rune Priests do, but standard Inquisitors and Librarians don't. Actually, most Human Psykers are now Ld9.



Now, they should probably be slightly more expensive for all this, but not by a whole bunch, after all, we want them to be an attractive choice compared to D. Avengers.
Hence the Lasblasters. A 24" S3 AP5 Assault 2 weapon is good, but not as good as a DA Catapult, which is just how Guardian weapons should be.


made Fleet in general D3+3"
Or 2(3?)d6, keep the highest result?



24" range on fortune and guide would be sexy though.
Guide would be fine, but Fortune wouldn't, I think. At the moment, it's one of the most powerful psychic powers in the whole game. Fortuned HoloFalcons, Avatar, or Seer Councils are nigh-unstoppable, and a 24" range on such an efficient power would be OOT. Increase it to 12", but not more.

Fable
26-11-2009, 17:25
;4164892']Lord Inquisitors and Rune Priests do, but standard Inquisitors and Librarians don't. Actually, most Human Psykers are now Ld9.


BT do not have Librarians. PG 56 of the SM codex indicates that Librarians have LD 10 and this is confirmed under every listing for them in the book. In fact of the (non-WD) codexes out for Marines ONLY the Dark Angels have a LD 9 librarian (and old Storm Shields and old CMLs), so if they want LD 10 they have to shell out for Ezekiel. If people are getting an allied Inquisitor I have nearly always seen it done as a Lord Inquisitor. Honestly the most common human Psyker you'll see now is the Librarian and is LD 10. I'd suggest picking up the 5th SM codex for future reference.

@ Bunn
Yes, the ally rules are silly. The IG have more than enough toys in their arsenal, the last thing they need is toys from other lists as well. That's what apocalypse is for. The fewer armies that make psychic powers all but useless the better.

When I used the words "just about all" I think it was pretty clear that it didn't mean "all" else I would have said "all". Doom seems appropriate in cost, range and effect, hence the "just about". I'm not sure if you were trying to be snide and failing or if the caveat just didn't jump out at you, but I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt and guess the latter.

I find Farseers far less respectable than you... but then again I consistently play against Librarians, Lord Inquisitors and occasionally other another Farseer. There's nothing quite like having a codex that designs its HQs around supporting the other units and then making the most common army played in the game give them a 50% chance of using those abilities only after they've successfully cast them in the first place.

Squallish
26-11-2009, 18:50
Farseers are a less in-your-face Psyker. They're currently buff-ers, and buffers only.

I'd like to see some more Psychic powers that make for a more Offensive-minded caster.. crazy shooting powers, debuffs and disables.

I'm sounding like an MMO player here.. but I think it would work in 40k, especially with rampant psychic defense out there.. the crazy powerful offense won't work all the time anyway.

Gwyidion
26-11-2009, 19:54
I posted this in the fandex thread, but for a more offensive psyker, make the warlock an HQ unit (ala DoW2), and buff his powers and stats.

5 5 3 3(4) 3 6 3 10 3+

Wargear:

Wraithbone armor - the warlock has a 3+ armor save, and has improved toughness

Rune Armor - the warlock has a 4+ invulnerable save

Witchblade - The potency of the warlock's mind and the magnitude of his hate causes this weapon to act as both a normal witchblade and a power weapon.

Shuriken pistol

Plasma Grenades (offensive/defensive)

Spirit Stones

Special Rules:

Path of the Warseer - the warlock never takes a psychic test to use his psychic powers.

Fleet of Foot (whatever this becomes)

Psychic powers (choose two at deployment, may use two a turn, but not the same power twice):

Destructor: The warlock's long experience makes this attack more potent than normal - S6 Ap3 template assault 1

Executioner - The warlock nominates a single model within line of sight and within 18". He fights one round of combat against that model, during which the model may not retaliate unless it is a psyker. This is made during the movement phase, and does not count as a psychic shooting attack.

Destroy: The warlock feels the rage of his craftworld course through him, and focuses his thoughts at a single point. Crackling lightning flashes from the warlock's blade, searing his target. This is a psychic shooting attack made normally, except without a psychic test. R24" S7 Ap1 Assault 2

Psychic Presence: Cast at the start of the assault phase - choose one: Target enemy unit within LoS and within 18" passes a -2 Ld test or fights at WS1 and half initiative (round up), or Target friendly unit within LoS and 18" (engaged in assault or not) passes a leadership test, and fights with +1 S, +1 I +1 WS, and gains stubborn.

just thinking

brightblade
26-11-2009, 20:19
Wow.:eek:

Now that is a scary warlock. How many points each?;)

incarna
26-11-2009, 21:56
;4159546']
Such a comparison is ridiculous, considering how little the two units have in common. You'd be better off comparing Guardians to, say, Imperial Guardsmen. For a mere two points per model, Guardians get +1 Ld, +1 I, a much better gun (even more if said gun gets a 18" range, as some suggested), and can field twice as many not so heavy weapons as an Infantry squad. Do we really need Eldar horde armies?

I completely disagree. The comparison is valid. For 2 few points a squad of boyz is both more resiliant and essentially fearless. Heck, 23 shoota boyz, mathematically, can hold their own against 20 guardian defenders - and without concern for a lost leadership test due to casualties.

A guardsmen comes in at about 5 points per model and can include a special weapon in addition to a heavy weapon as WELL as a tricked out sergeant.

Point for point the most similar comparison is probably Veterans who come in at 7 points per model, have a better balistic skill, have a weapon with twice the range, can take special weapons AND heavy weapons AND trick out a sergeant... you even have the ability to upgrade them to have a 4+ save (which is HUGE in principle if the IG montra wasn't typically quantity over quality), infiltrate, or a one shot pie plate.

7 point guardians with 18" shuriken catapults who can take 1 heavy weapon for every 5 guardians in the squad is by NO means out of pace with the other troop choices available in other armies.

shabbadoo
27-11-2009, 01:22
Guardians don't need that much though. They are fine at 8 points, and with 18" shuriken catapults can stand up, points for points, with IG, Shoota Boyz, Dire avengers, Marines, and Fire Warriors. In those comparisons, whoever gets the first round of firing will have a slight advantage, but otherwise they are very, very even. That is the way it is supposed to be of course. Guardians certainly don't need up to 4 heavy weapons per squad, which is beyond out of place with Troops choices in other armies. One heavy weapon is fine, and even that one should be optional, as mechanized Guardian squads in Wave Serpents would be a very nice option to have.

Bunnahabhain
27-11-2009, 01:47
I've always liked the idea of Guardinas with a heavy weapon per x men. Seems the best way to integrate the weapons platforms into the list. Maybe they count as a heavy choice if you want to take D cannons or vibro cannons, but the more normal weapons stay as troops choices?

Guardians should be shooty, and there is ample precedent for shooty troops units with heavy weapons. Guard heavy weapon squads, or merged squads. Troops units, with up to 5 heavy weapons in a single squad.

Arakanis
27-11-2009, 02:33
Most of the Fandexes I've read have allowed Guardian Support Teams to be taken 1 for 1 with Guardian Defenders without taking up an FOC.

This allows them to spend some more points and get a good firebase, as well as having the regular guardians be effective at medium to short range with a heavy weapon in the squad to boot.

Emeraldw
27-11-2009, 04:35
Guardians don't need that much though. They are fine at 8 points, and with 18" shuriken catapults can stand up, points for points, with IG, Shoota Boyz, Dire avengers, Marines, and Fire Warriors. In those comparisons, whoever gets the first round of firing will have a slight advantage, but otherwise they are very, very even. That is the way it is supposed to be of course. Guardians certainly don't need up to 4 heavy weapons per squad, which is beyond out of place with Troops choices in other armies. One heavy weapon is fine, and even that one should be optional, as mechanized Guardian squads in Wave Serpents would be a very nice option to have.

my only hesitation with that is the fact that they are basically then cheaper dire avengers. Dire avengers use that longer range gun well and better for 4 more points each with better armor save and the option to blade storm. To me, this still doesn't help guardians when comparing to Dire Avengers, especially if Dire Avengers get cheaper or better.

Arakanis
27-11-2009, 06:33
my only hesitation with that is the fact that they are basically then cheaper dire avengers. Dire avengers use that longer range gun well and better for 4 more points each with better armor save and the option to blade storm. To me, this still doesn't help guardians when comparing to Dire Avengers, especially if Dire Avengers get cheaper or better.

Don't forget better BS and Leadership. Even if Guardians are put up to 4+ (Aspect Armour at 3+?)

Dire Avengers could use a little tweaking too, it would be nice if they had a pistol and a close combat weapon so they could actually fight in assault and not just get run over.

big squig
27-11-2009, 08:08
I'd much rather see guardians take on a support/objective holding role than be cheapo dire avengers. I'd rather see them get multiple platforms and sit back where they can be safe. It just doesn't make any damn sense for a dying race to send their conscripts out like cannon fodder.

The aspect warriors are the backbone of the army. They get the job done. Guardians are there to man weapons, fly ships, and defend positions.

big squig
27-11-2009, 08:09
Dire Avengers could use a little tweaking too, it would be nice if they had a pistol and a close combat weapon so they could actually fight in assault and not just get run over.
I think Defend, Shimmer Shields, and a good Exarch more than makes up for that. My avengers often hold their own in combat. They're just like any other element in the eldar army, if they go unsupported, they die.

Arakanis
27-11-2009, 08:15
I think Defend, Shimmer Shields, and a good Exarch more than makes up for that. My avengers often hold their own in combat. They're just like any other element in the eldar army, if they go unsupported, they die.

I suppose so, they are supposed to be the "jack of all trades master of none" unit though, if anything Dire Avengers should require the least support.

As far as aspect warriors being the front line, not all Craftworlds have access to a lot of aspect shrines, Alaitoc and Ulthwe for two, Iyanden as well though.

Thud
27-11-2009, 11:01
I posted this in the fandex thread, but for a more offensive psyker, make the warlock an HQ unit (ala DoW2), and buff his powers and stats.

(...)

I like it. Something like that would be nice to have. About 100 points or so, perhaps drop him down to two wounds...

Sorros
27-11-2009, 14:38
I suppose so, they are supposed to be the "jack of all trades master of none" unit though, if anything Dire Avengers should require the least support.

As far as aspect warriors being the front line, not all Craftworlds have access to a lot of aspect shrines, Alaitoc and Ulthwe for two, Iyanden as well though.

Yeah, doesn't Altansar and Ulthwe use guardians like insane? Wasn't Altansar trapped in the freaking Eye for a while? I would assume their Guardians are all as good as aspect warriors:rolleyes:

Certain craftworlds use guardians to great effect, so they would be just as good as aspect warriors, at least training wise, perhaps not equipment. I think that Guardians should get an 18" gun, 1 shot, 4+ save, a heavy weapon option for every 5 men. The support weapons can be expensive, but viable for the guardian squads, and could be actual heavy weapons, not floating around so they count as assault.

Poseidal
27-11-2009, 14:59
Altansar should probably be like legion of the damned, since that's how they behaved when they turned up in EOT after being only part of Maugen Ra's background before. (I think reintroducing them at all destroyed the mystery a bit).

Altansar should be like:

Fearless
Invulnerable Saves each
Always Deep Strike, rerolling scatter
Normal troops have strange legacy warp improved weapons, or something.

Altansar Reapers should get Shuriken Cannons instead of reaper launchers, all with inbuilt Executioners.

incarna
27-11-2009, 17:44
Guardians don't need that much though. They are fine at 8 points, and with 18" shuriken catapults can stand up, points for points, with IG, Shoota Boyz, Dire avengers, Marines, and Fire Warriors. In those comparisons, whoever gets the first round of firing will have a slight advantage, but otherwise they are very, very even. That is the way it is supposed to be of course. Guardians certainly don't need up to 4 heavy weapons per squad, which is beyond out of place with Troops choices in other armies. One heavy weapon is fine, and even that one should be optional, as mechanized Guardian squads in Wave Serpents would be a very nice option to have.

I still disagee. 18" shuriken catapults are a start but mathmatically the Defenders still fall far short of the standard set in the troop choices of other armies that have a codex within the current ed. The game consits of more than shooting - though I think Guardians need to fill a shooty roll, when considering their point value consider it within the context of the entire game.

The roll of the guardian should be the epitomie of "sit back and shoot". If a guardsmen swuad can take a heavy weapon and a special weapon - the equevelant of two "upgrades" per five guardsmen (not to mention the sergeant) than guardians should be able to have 2 upgrades per 5 as well.

When comparing veterans the imbalance becomes more apparent. A vet squad can take 4 upgrades in a squad of 10 (again, not counting the sergeant).

As others have mentioned, the roll of the guardian SHOULD be in support and objective camping - not Aspect Warrior Meat Shield. I could se an argument for 8 points per model if they were given 18" catapults, 1 heavy weapon per 5 squad memebers AND an armor save of 4+.

Badger[Fr]
27-11-2009, 18:55
I completely disagree. The comparison is valid. For 2 few points a squad of boyz is both more resiliant and essentially fearless. Heck, 23 shoota boyz, mathematically, can hold their own against 20 guardian defenders - and without concern for a lost leadership test due to casualties.
There is an obvious difference that stems from the fact the Ork are a horde army, whereas the Eldar are not. As a consequence, the bog standard Boy is the backbone of almost any Ork army, and has been made underpriced on purpose by the very same designer that wrote the Eldar Codex.



A guardsmen comes in at about 5 points per model and can include a special weapon in addition to a heavy weapon as WELL as a tricked out sergeant.

A special weapon is still far from being as significant as an additional heavy weapon. Iron Warriors were taken out of the CSM Codex for a reason. Even the Imperial Guard depends on vulnerable and expensive HW squads.



Point for point the most similar comparison is probably Veterans who come in at 7 points per model, have a better balistic skill, have a weapon with twice the range,
Which weapon? I bet most IG players would happily trade their crappy S3 AP6 shotguns for a S4 AP5 Shuriken Catapult. Lasguns? Veteran squads are almost always mechanized, and therefore unable to fire their rifles anyway.


can take special weapons AND heavy weapons AND trick out a sergeant...
But these aren't free either.


you even have the ability to upgrade them to have a 4+ save (which is HUGE in principle if the IG montra wasn't typically quantity over quality), infiltrate, or a one shot pie plate.

I have yet to see an IG (or Ork, in that regard) player that would bother with a 4+ save for any other reason than background. You do realize a naked Veteran with this oh so awesome Carapace armour costs 10 points, right? Almost as expensive as a Dire Aveneger, minus Leadership 10, WS 4, I5, and of course the upgraded Shuriken Catapult. Let's not mention Fire Dragons, considering how superior to Veterans in every possible way (minus being Troops) these are...

Though, a 4+ armour save on Guardians would indeed be reasonable. These guys are wearing full body armour. At 7-8 points per model, with a 4+ armour save, and a 24" Lasblaster, they would be a solid choice indeed.

Arakanis
27-11-2009, 19:44
;4167956']
I have yet to see an IG (or Ork, in that regard) player that would bother with a 4+ save for any other reason than background. You do realize a naked Veteran with this oh so awesome Carapace armour costs 10 points, right? Almost as expensive as a Dire Aveneger, minus Leadership 10, WS 4, I5, and of course the upgraded Shuriken Catapult. Let's not mention Fire Dragons, considering how superior to Veterans in every possible way (minus being Troops) these are...
Avengers are Leadership 9, the Exarch is Leadership 10. Fire Dragons are 16 points base.


;4167956']
Though, a 4+ armour save on Guardians would indeed be reasonable. These guys are wearing full body armour. At 7-8 points per model, with a 4+ armour save, and a 24" Lasblaster, they would be a solid choice indeed.
That'd be fair. I'd be happier with 8-10 points and a 18" catapult though.

shabbadoo
27-11-2009, 21:03
my only hesitation with that is the fact that they are basically then cheaper dire avengers. Dire avengers use that longer range gun well and better for 4 more points each with better armor save and the option to blade storm. To me, this still doesn't help guardians when comparing to Dire Avengers, especially if Dire Avengers get cheaper or better.

Cheaper Dire Avengers are what Guardians have always been considered. Kinda like Space Marines Scouts are cheaper(if only slightly) Space Marines. Amazingly enough, Space Marine Scouts become Space Marines, and most Guardians that follow the Warrior Path become Dire Avengers(kinda why there are so many more Dire Avengers than any other type of Aspect Warrior). With the suggested changes I mentioned, Guardians compare, points per points, very well with Dire Avengers- even including the differences in their stats, equipment, and abilities. The basic unit members of the two units are never going to be drastically different, nor should they be. Dire Avengers are the most common Aspect Warriors because they are based on the most common fighters of the Eldar- Guardians. The major differences between the two unit types will always be the number of bodies in the unit, their armor, their stats, their abilities, the weapon platform, the Guardian's option to swap out their weapons/options and become "Storm Guardians", and a difference in the two unit leader types(Exarch/Warlock). The differences between the two units are actually quite substantial when you list all of them. :D Guardians just need a few buffs to be worth their current points cost, those being increased range for shuriken catapults for the regular Guardians, and assault grenades for the Storm Guardians.

Without any changes, Guardians should be reduced to 6 points. At that price they compare functionally, points for points, with Orks, IG, Marines, and Tau. At that point level I would still give Storm Guardians assault grenades though. As the saying goes, "Quantity has a quality all of its own."

Pete_x
27-11-2009, 23:06
eldar should codex should be written with his fluff in mind imho. That means, an ancient dying race of powerfull psyker (wich implies higher technologie based on psychic powers). To me eldars (at least mech eldar) should be to opposite of IG. If IG is a glass cannon eldars have to be the wall of bricks. with fast effective unit that can deal the damage needed to get the win. Basicaly what they do now with some fixes here and there.

Slightly better farseers. unstoppable powers on a psychic test of 5 or less

Autarch that allows 1 choice of aspect as troop

better pheonix lord that allow 1 choice of their aspect as troop

cheaper plastic wraithguard

cheaper waveserpent

better/cheaper vypers (either 2 man bikes or no longuer open-topped)

better/cheaper swooping hawks

+6'' on DA's and guardians guns

DA's with def grenades, 2ccw and upped cost. this will truly make them jack of all trade. Maybe even haywire grenades and cost 16 like all aspect.

a way for DR to deal with cover.

cheaper falcons

I'll post the details later I have 2 more minutes before I miss the bus.

Solar_Eclipse
28-11-2009, 05:34
Well i have some thoughts ive been throwing around so here they are.

Farseer:
Name Ws Bs St To Wo In At Ld Sv
Farseer 4 4 3 3 3 5 1 10 4+
Composition:
• 1 Farseer
Unit Type:
• Infantry
Wargear:
• Witchblade
• Shuriken Pistol
• Rune armour
Psychic Powers:
• Guide
• Fortune
• Doom
• Eldritch Storm
• Mind War
• Battle Fate
Special Rules:
• Fleet
• Psyker
• Path of the Seer

Special Rules:

Path of the Seer:
If a Farseer rolls a 5 or less on a psychic test, the power may not be nullified by any method. Farseers know all warlock and all farseer powers. They may choose to use 1 active or passive warlock power AND 1 Farseer power a turn.


Guide: Range 24”
The unit may reroll all its failed to hit rolls for shooting or combat

Fortune: Range: 24”
The unit may reroll all failed armour, invulnerable or cover saves

Doom: Range: 24”
All attacks against the enemy unit reroll all failed to wound rolls

Mind war: Range: 24”
The farseer rolls 2D3 and adds the result to their Leadership. The enemy model rolls 1D6 and adds the result to their leadership. For every point the farseer beats the enemy model, they must take an Invulnerable save (no other kind allowed) or die.

Battle Fate: Range: 24”
The unit gains an Invulnerable save of 4+ (or +1 to an existing Invulnerable save)

Eldritch Storm: Range” Centred on Caster.
Place the Large blast template with the hole on the Farseers base. All enemy models touched by this template take a S4 Ap3 hit. This power may be used in combat.

[Farseers should be the ultimate support character, but he still has the ability to go battle mage if he wants.]

Warlock Powers:
They take a power, they may use either its passive form, which doesn’t require a psychic test, or its active form which requires a psychic test.
Conceal: Passive- 4+ cover, Active- 3+ cover
Enhance: Passive- +1Ws +1In, Active +1Ws, +1In, +1At, furious charge
Embolden: Passive: Stubborn, Active: Fearless
Destructor: Passive: Template S5 Ap4 assault 1, Active: Template S6 Ap3 assault 1

[I wanted warlocks to be able to be very good at using a power, but can try to stretch themselves to get some extra power, with the chance of daemon eating, of course.]

Shruiken catapults: Range: 18” S4 Ap4 assault 2
Shruiken pistols: Range: 12” S4 Ap4 Pistol
Shruiken Cannons: Range: 24” S6 Ap4 Assault 3

Lasblaster: Range: 24” S4 Ap4 Assault 2

All Eldar Vehicles may make an additional move of 6” in the Assault phase, no matter their speed in the shooting phase.

[just a few random thoughts. I liked the extra AP on Eldar weapons since they now are an interesting counterpoint to the Necron rules i made up, also i like the idea of having the speedy tanks, so there you are]

Artillery Battery- Troops

You may take a single Artillery battery for every Guardian unit you have in the army.

[solves alot of problems of them taking up HS spaces while allowing you to have a Guardian heavy army]

Jetbike Squadron- Troops
Name Ws Bs St To Wo In At Ld Sv
Jetbike 3 3 3 4 1 4 1 8 3+
Vyper 3 3 3 4 2 4 2 8 3+
Composition:
• 3 Guardian Jetbikes
Unit Type:
• Jetbikes
Wargear:
• Jetbike
• Twin Linked Shuriken catapults
• Shuriken Cannon (Vypers only)
Options:
• The unit may add up to seven extra Guardian Jetbikes for 20 points each
• The unit may add up to 3 Vyper Jetbikes for 35 points each
• One guardian Jetbike in every three guardian jetbikes may replace their shuriken catapult for a shuriken cannon for +10 points each
• Each Vyper Jetbike may upgrade their Shuriken cannon for one of the following weapons:
- Bright Lance
- Eldar Missile Launcher
- Starcannon
- Scatter Laser

[i like mixed units, i think they look cool on the field, and this brings back vypers]

Vyper Jetbike Squadron- Fast attack
Name Ws Bs St To Wo In At Ld Sv
Vyper 3 3 3 4 2 4 2 8 3+
Python 4 3 5 4 2 5 3 8 3+
Composition:
• 1 Vyper Jetbike
Unit Type:
• Jetbikes
Wargear:
• Jetbike
• Twin Linked Shuriken catapults
• Shuriken Cannon
Special Rules:
• Furious Charge (Pythons only)
Options:
• The unit may add up to 5 Vyper Jetbikes for 35 points each
• Each Vyper Jetbike may upgrade their Shuriken cannon for one of the following weapons:
- Bright Lance
- Eldar Missile Launcher
- Starcannon
- Scatter Laser
• Any number of Vyper Jetbikes may be upgraded to Python Jetbikes for no extra cost. Python Jetbikes replace their Shuriken cannon mount for a fighting platform with a powerful Eldar warrior on it. All attacks made by Pythons in close combat count as Monstrous creatures

[but Vyper squads as Fast attack are still around, especially the Python versions which i *really* like the idea of.]

Guardians:
Name Ws Bs St To Wo In At Ld Sv
Guardians 3 3 3 3 1 4 1 8 4+
Warlock 4 4 3 3 1 4 2 9 4+
Composition:
• 5 Guardians
Unit Type:
• Infantry
Wargear:
• Shuriken Catapult
• Mesh Armour
• Witchblade (Warlock Only, replaces Shuriken Catapult)
• Rune Armour (Warlock Only, Replaces Mesh Armour)
• Plasma Grenades
Special Rules:
• Fleet
Options:
• The unit may add up to 15 extra Guardians for 9 points each
• The unit may add a warlock for 30 Points

[Extra save and the better gun means nastier Guardians. They will still have weapons batteries options, i just havent bothered writing them]

Dire Avengers:
Name Ws Bs St To Wo In At Ld Sv
Dire Avengers 4 4 3 3 1 5 1 8 4+
Exarch 5 5 3 3 1 6 2 9 3+
Composition:
• 5 Dire Avengers
Unit Type:
• Infantry
Wargear:
• Shuriken Catapult
• Shuriken Pistol
• Close Combat Weapon
• Aspect Armour
• Plasma Grenades
Special Rules:
• Fleet
Options:
• The unit may add up to 4 extra Dire Avengers for 11 points each
• The unit may add an Exarch for 20 Points

[Dire Avengers have a slight change really with their CCW, i think they are better this way]

So yeah, tear it apart. I know its mostly overpowered stuff, but with all my rewrites im hoping to get cool ideas and themes first and then work on balance.

Arakanis
28-11-2009, 07:19
I like your work there Solar-Eclipse, and actually, I'd had the Close Combat Jetbike idea before, except I called them Anacondas. Hah.

Still, all around very nice, and I like what you did with the Farseers, it does make them powerful and supportive as well.

Axeman1n
28-11-2009, 08:36
I'd have the Farseer have a base Initiative of 5, with a minus 1 for each power known. Shows that the more powerful they get, the more crystaline they become.

I'd like the fire dragons to be very tank busty. Give them str 10 ap 1 weapons, and tank hunter. No melta (for balance).
Banshee's should strike before initiative 10 on their first round of combat.

Bring back the Template for Warp spiders.

Eldar Tanks should be BS 4.

Upgrade the Pheonix lords with army enhancing abilities.

Make striking scorpions STR4 again.

Nerf Veil of tears wording to not effect indirect fire, or those weapons which do not require LoS. Give them Dodge (4+ invul)

Give Wraith(guard/lord) the ability to ignore night fight.

Boost the power of the Avatar.

Bring back the Craft worlds (even if it's with special characters)

big squig
28-11-2009, 09:48
I don't know, eldar is kinda in a weird place with fire dragons...it's the only army that has an entire unit with nothing but meltaguns and most people say, "Eh, there's better stuff in the army".

That's freaking nuts, because they're right. I find fire dragons not all that useful.

Personally, if they could just have two settings on their guns; melta or flamer. They'd prolly get a lot more table time. Just go with the whole fire theme.

Solar_Eclipse
28-11-2009, 11:03
Personally, if they could just have two settings on their guns; melta or flamer. They'd prolly get a lot more table time. Just go with the whole fire theme.

Makes them a hell of a versatile unit, is that really where Eldar should go?

Sorros
28-11-2009, 13:16
I'd have the Farseer have a base Initiative of 5, with a minus 1 for each power known. Shows that the more powerful they get, the more crystaline they become.

I'd like the fire dragons to be very tank busty. Give them str 10 ap 1 weapons, and tank hunter. No melta (for balance).
Banshee's should strike before initiative 10 on their first round of combat.

Dragons would be a few more points, but yeah, would be cool. Banshees, I rarely use as everyone tends to be T4/S4 and they don't have a real place in my list.



Bring back the Template for Warp spiders.

Would need to be S4/5 or else a massive point increase. The cries of cheese that would ensue from template S6 pouring out from one squad that just 2d6" jumps back in the assault phase with a 3+ sv?


Eldar Tanks should be BS 4.

Certainly agree


Upgrade the Pheonix lords with army enhancing abilities.
and an invul save, make their aspect unit scoring if attached


Make striking scorpions STR4 again.

They already are. Chainswords add +1S, so they are really S4.


Give Wraith(guard/lord) the ability to ignore night fight.

Why would they do that? I'm curious, fluffwise.


Boost the power of the Avatar.

Even if more expensive, i agree. A piece of the WAR GOD.


Bring back the Craft worlds (even if it's with special characters)

Yus. YEAH. YES. Do it nao. I do be wantin' craftworlds back.

Axeman1n
28-11-2009, 13:51
Wraith sight is why they become zombies if they fail that test, and it says that don't percieve the world the way we do. Why would they be affected by Night fight?

Fable
28-11-2009, 14:22
Guide: Range 24”
The unit may reroll all its failed to hit rolls for shooting or combat


Solar points out something I forgot in my mention of Guide... it should effect Hand to Hand as well.

Pete_x
28-11-2009, 18:05
ok how bout this.

Autarch : Master strategist allow 1 squad of aspect warrior as troop and +1 reserve roll. Access to exarch gear

Farseer : unstoppable psychic power on a leadership roll of 5 or less.
fortune and guide : longuere range
Mind war : no saves including invul, longer range
Eldritch storm : Stronger, probably str 5 ap 5 ou 4 still 2d6 pen and spin

warlock : Conceal power gives stealth instead of 5+ cover

Avatar : str 8, eternal warrior, 5A instead of 4, more expensive, maybe fnp

cheaper pheonix lords that allows their aspects as troops

Striking scorpions seems fine, so do Fire dragons.

Wraithguard should be cheaper (30 points) and plastic

Howling banshees only need a reword to make it clear they have I10 when charging into cover

Wave serpent could be a little cheaper (weapons especially). Vectored engined cheaper (10 points), a upgrade to be able to move unload then assault when moving 6' or less.

Dire avengers/guardians +6'' range

Cheaper shining spears/swoopng hawks

Warp spider : the rending idea seemed great

Vyper Squadron : no more open-topped, If holo-field becomes much cheaper on vyper/ww squadron then they'd be fine

Support weapon battery : relentless.

dark reaper : exarch upgrade to ignore cover, save 2+(maybe)

wraithlord : cheaper and same weapon twice not twin-linked

WW squadron : fine as is but if holo-field cheaper then great

Falcon : bs 4 seems finen and not OP at all

Fire prism : a more focused shot (not blast str10 ap1 would be great)

Star cannon : same priceas scatter laser (it is about as efficient anyway)

Bright lance : ap1 would make it fine, it is after all a weapon that ignores armor completely...

I don't really have any ideas about the few unit I didn't mention

mughzee
28-11-2009, 21:33
I'd say get rid of Guardian squads all together. We all keep commenting how it's stupidly reflected that a dying race sends their Civies to die on the front line. For all intent purposes, keep them support like they're suppose to be. Keep them piloting vehicles
Guardians: Removed from FOC
keep the models as pilots for Walkers, Falcons, Vypers, Wave Serpent, Fire Prism.

Remove Guardian Jetbikes
Replace Guardian Jetbikes with Shining Spears, make them the standard. Give the SS options to upgrade to StarEagle Pilots..and do something (not sure what)

Dire Avengers
let them swap out their weapons for CC Weapons

Swooping Hawks:
their competing against Warp Spiders. how about changing their role a bit. more CC? I don't know, maybe something liek swapping their lasblasters for Dual Pistols or something..again not too confident in the rule application yet. but they dropping o9ut of the sky, getting close, pistol shooting, running in smacking head and standing their ground sound pretty slick. where as WS's come in soften it up and blink away.

Again, make them the dying race they are, quick cordinated ninja attacks and then they're out, specialists like no other. I'd personally reall fine toon them. it's how i play now, you can call them CW Bailtan, I call them a dieing race.

Sorros
28-11-2009, 22:33
If Guardians are gone, then we need new aspects.

\/\/raithlord
28-11-2009, 22:35
I'd say get rid of Guardian squads all together. We all keep commenting how it's stupidly reflected that a dying race sends their Civies to die on the front line. For all intent purposes, keep them support like they're suppose to be. Keep them piloting vehicles
Guardians: Removed from FOC
keep the models as pilots for Walkers, Falcons, Vypers, Wave Serpent, Fire Prism.

Swooping Hawks:
their competing against Warp Spiders. how about changing their role a bit. more CC? I don't know, maybe something liek swapping their lasblasters for Dual Pistols or something..again not too confident in the rule application yet. but they dropping o9ut of the sky, getting close, pistol shooting, running in smacking head and standing their ground sound pretty slick. where as WS's come in soften it up and blink away.


The removal of Guardians would be pretty impractical due to existing Eldar players who already own many Guardians. There aren't many (any?) cases of GW dropping mainstream units that have boxed sets.
Also, armies such as Ulthwe are noted for having very few dedicated Aspect warriors and have to send in Guardians as troops. Against Hive Fleet Kraken, Guardians would also have been put into support units to defend the craftworld. So they have fluff backing their use too.

With the Swooping Hawks, if the Warp Spiders use multiple high strength shots then maybe the Hawks could centre around low AP (3) shots with their LasBlasters, making them similar in function to Vespid.

Arakanis
28-11-2009, 22:40
I'd say get rid of Guardian squads all together. We all keep commenting how it's stupidly reflected that a dying race sends their Civies to die on the front line. For all intent purposes, keep them support like they're suppose to be. Keep them piloting vehicles
Guardians: Removed from FOC
keep the models as pilots for Walkers, Falcons, Vypers, Wave Serpent, Fire Prism. First off, it's BECAUSE they're a dying race that they have to have Guardian soldiers. They just don't have enough aspect warriors to do the job. Second off, Guardians are better trained and physically more able fighters than Guardsman, so it's not like they're untrained conscripts. Finally, what about Ulthwe who relies on Black Guardian squads for war? I play Ulthwe and I use Guardians, even though I rarely win, it's fluffy dammit.



Remove Guardian Jetbikes
Replace Guardian Jetbikes with Shining Spears, make them the standard. Give the SS options to upgrade to StarEagle Pilots..and do something (not sure what) Same problem with Saim-hann, you're gonna take away that army's main build. Also, Star Eagle pilots fly Nightwings and Vampires, not jetbikes.



Dire Avengers
let them swap out their weapons for CC Weapons
...Dire Avengers are the lords of the Shuriken weapon. There is no way ever they would leave their catapults behind and bring blades to battle. Maybe in ADDITION, but no way otherwise.



Swooping Hawks:
their competing against Warp Spiders. how about changing their role a bit. more CC? I don't know, maybe something liek swapping their lasblasters for Dual Pistols or something..again not too confident in the rule application yet. but they dropping o9ut of the sky, getting close, pistol shooting, running in smacking head and standing their ground sound pretty slick. where as WS's come in soften it up and blink away. This is kind of interesting, I like the idea. Maybe arm them with some sort of close combat weapon so they can swoop in and decapitate someone? Lances/Halberds?

Urath
28-11-2009, 22:43
Swooping Hawks:
their competing against Warp Spiders. how about changing their role a bit. more CC? I don't know, maybe something liek swapping their lasblasters for Dual Pistols or something..again not too confident in the rule application yet. but they dropping o9ut of the sky, getting close, pistol shooting, running in smacking head and standing their ground sound pretty slick. where as WS's come in soften it up and blink away.

So, they'd be an Eldar version of the 'Seraphim' (Codex: Witch Hunter units)...

Mwahaha, my Dark Eldar dirty has been done. TO THE WEBWAY!

shabbadoo
28-11-2009, 22:48
I'd like the fire dragons to be very tank busty. Give them str 10 ap 1 weapons, and tank hunter. No melta (for balance).
Banshee's should strike before initiative 10 on their first round of combat.

Nice try, but what you propose would simply just make them more T 5 multi-wound critter busty. They already are very tank busty. Besides, who doesn't run them in Falcon or Wave Serpent that in most cases easily drives up on a target, disembarks the Fire Dragons, and they then blast something to slag? Fire Dragons don't need any buffs at all. They are very nasty as is; both to vehicles and otherwise.


Swooping Hawks:
their competing against Warp Spiders. how about changing their role a bit. more CC? I don't know, maybe something like swapping their lasblasters for Dual Pistols or something..again not too confident in the rule application yet. but they dropping o9ut of the sky, getting close, pistol shooting, running in smacking head and standing their ground sound pretty slick. where as WS's come in soften it up and blink away.

The whole point of Swooping Hawks is to *NOT* be a close combat unit. They move about and shoot stuff from range, and are generally hard to get to grips with. that is the point of the their unit. Warp Spiders however *are* an in-close Assault unit. Even still, they can be elusive too. eluysivness is a characteristic of many Eldar units- Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, Guardian Jetbikes, Shining Spears, Vypers. Swooping hwks could come down to 20 points each though.

As to competing with Warp Spiders, you will always have units competing for FOC choices. In this regard Aspect Warriors are very purposely balanced- one is a Troops choice, three of them are Elites, three are Fast Attack, and one is Heavy Support. That doesn't need to change, and it is possible to field at lest one unit of every Aspect Warrior in the same army. With regard to taking multiples of some units that take up the same FOC slot, leave that to Phoenix Lords unlocking the option of taking units of their Aspect as Troops. Some have said counting one unit as a Troops choice, but I would that *all* units of that Aspect counting as Troops. Baharroth leading six units of Swooping Hawks, backed up by three units of Warp Spiders and other units.

Which reminds me of to something that I am not sure has yet been mentioned:

Give us a bloody Warp Spider Phoenix Lord already!!!

It has never been done, and it would certainly be something new and cool.

incarna
29-11-2009, 01:58
;4167956']There is an obvious difference that stems from the fact the Ork are a horde army, whereas the Eldar are not. As a consequence, the bog standard Boy is the backbone of almost any Ork army, and has been made underpriced on purpose by the very same designer that wrote the Eldar Codex.
That difference is only obvious if you adhere to a codex paradigm that says an ork army is a horde army. That paradigm is invalid based on the extremely compeditive biker nob army as well as the new generation of codexes where NO army is a "horde" or "elite" or "mechanized" army - a compeditive army can be built in a wide variety of ways. Orks are no more a "horde" army than IG are a "tank" army. Boz are not "under priced" they're priced baced on their value withn the context of the game as a whole (with regard to 5th ed codexes - not older codexes).


;4167956']A special weapon is still far from being as significant as an additional heavy weapon. Iron Warriors were taken out of the CSM Codex for a reason. Even the Imperial Guard depends on vulnerable and expensive HW squads.
Again, I disagree. A heavy weapons value over a special weapon is situational. Vs a squad of Gaunts or Boyz I'd much prefer a flamer over a missile launcher or even heavy bolter. Vs. a AV 13+ I'd much prefer a melta gun over a lascannon or Autocannon. The Iron Warriors being taken out of the chaos codex based on heavy weapon spam is an unfounded assumption. ALL specific legions were gutted for a wide variety of reasons - many of which we'll never know. BUT I will point out that the in the current rendition of the Chaos codex a player is still fully capable of building an army that spams heavy weaons - but that's neither here nor there.


;4167956']Which weapon? I bet most IG players would happily trade their crappy S3 AP6 shotguns for a S4 AP5 Shuriken Catapult. Lasguns? Veteran squads are almost always mechanized, and therefore unable to fire their rifles anyway.
I was talking about lasguns but the comparison is moot. Mathematically a BS 4 S3 weapon is identical to a BS3 S4 weapon against infantry. Mathematically, with the exception of AP, a shotgun in the hands of a vet is IDENTICAL to a shuriken catapult in the hands of a guardian. Lasguns are nearly identical giving up the ability to assault in exchange for 24" range while stationary. Discussing mechnization is adding an unnessicary element to the discussion


;4167956']But these aren't free either.
Neither was I suggestng heavy weapons upgrades for guardians. Players have to pay for the gear that they want with points.


;4167956']I have yet to see an IG (or Ork, in that regard) player that would bother with a 4+ save for any other reason than background. You do realize a naked Veteran with this oh so awesome Carapace armour costs 10 points, right? Almost as expensive as a Dire Aveneger, minus Leadership 10, WS 4, I5, and of course the upgraded Shuriken Catapult.
A vet squad still has the OPTION to take carapace armor as well as infiltrate (outflanking mounted melta or flamer spam is very very powerfull). Yeah, they pay for it but like I said, it's an OPTION. What can a guardian pay for except an expensive heavy weapon that hits half the time?

Orks are moot - I've seen Ard Boyz plenty of times. They're an amazing tar pit and first assault unit.


;4167956']Let's not mention Fire Dragons, considering how superior to Veterans in every possible way (minus being Troops) these are...
16 point fire dragons are not, in my opinion, relivant to this discussion.


;4167956']Though, a 4+ armour save on Guardians would indeed be reasonable. These guys are wearing full body armour. At 7-8 points per model, with a 4+ armour save, and a 24" Lasblaster, they would be a solid choice indeed.
I disagree. 4+ armor and a 24" lasblaster is, in my opinion, a downgrade... and falls outside the context of what the guardian roll should be within the Eldar codex. I strongly believe Guardians should be 7 points a piece, the squad should range from 10 to 20 models and be able to take 1 heavy weapon for every 5 members of the squad, and have 18" shuriken catapults.

In making a comparison to Veterans, the squads would be nealry identical except that Guardians fill more of a long-range support roll (but must pay MAD points for the crap-tastic brightlance to pop vehicles) where vets give up the anonymity of range in exchange to being much more effective at close range with flamers and melta guns.

UrielSynthesis
29-11-2009, 02:01
new Wraith Guard and Warith Lord models. Please.

Arakanis
29-11-2009, 02:23
new Wraith Guard and Warith Lord models. Please.

New Wraithlord models? We just got some, and they're awesome.

UrielSynthesis
29-11-2009, 02:25
Sorry, I had a little bit of a senior moment and forgot about those (was thinking of my old wraithlords over in the corner).

Arakanis
29-11-2009, 02:28
Sorry, I had a little bit of a senior moment and forgot about those (was thinking of my old wraithlords over in the corner).

In the Eldar thread we call those Farseer moments. No worries, man.

It would be cool to see one or two more Wraith types appear though. Something Wraithguard sized with close combat, and maybe something else entirely.

UrielSynthesis
29-11-2009, 02:59
This is what I would like model-wise:

-new Wraithguard
-new Jetbikes (Vypers look fine, but if the regular bikes got a major visual overhaul, a Vyper redesign could be in order to make them fit together)
-new Falcon (I'm sure a lot of people think the current design is fine, I think something a little more exciting and modern could be done)
-new Warp Spiders
-new Pheonix Lords (though for some reason it wouldn't surprise me to see them left out of the codex completely)
-new Fire Dragons

and finally, the return of Eldar Princes.

incarna
29-11-2009, 03:09
In the Eldar thread we call those Farseer moments. No worries, man.

It would be cool to see one or two more Wraith types appear though. Something Wraithguard sized with close combat, and maybe something else entirely.

I could certainly go for a wraithlord named character as a HQ choice. Wraithlord are supposed to be epic warriors of unequaled prowess - seems there would be a couple that might make good generals.

incarna
29-11-2009, 03:20
I don't know, eldar is kinda in a weird place with fire dragons...it's the only army that has an entire unit with nothing but meltaguns and most people say, "Eh, there's better stuff in the army".

That's freaking nuts, because they're right. I find fire dragons not all that useful.

Personally, if they could just have two settings on their guns; melta or flamer. They'd prolly get a lot more table time. Just go with the whole fire theme.

I will say that I disagree with your evaluation of Fire Dragons. I use two squads and they never fail me. An incredibly compeditive player at my LGC uses three squads of 10 and they devistate everything they touch.

I think making fusion guns dual shot like missile launchers pushes the envelope. First, Eldar aspect warriors are supposed to be specialists and this seems to contradict that.

I could MAYBE buy Fire Dragons being given the option to select which amo they have at the start of the game to represent the particular training their aspect has had (either horde or anti-armor). Giving them the ability to choose round by round would warant a bit of a point hike in my opinion.

Shiodome
29-11-2009, 04:26
seeing as it's states in white dwarf that eldar are currently in playtesting, i was wondering if anyone had an idea on the lead time between play testing and release (i.e how far off is the eldar release?)

Arakanis
29-11-2009, 04:30
seeing as it's states in white dwarf that eldar are currently in playtesting, i was wondering if anyone had an idea on the lead time between play testing and release (i.e how far off is the eldar release?)

Now, does it ACTUALLY state this, or is this one of those rumors that start on someone wishfully misreading a statement somewhere?

Shiodome
29-11-2009, 05:13
not really trying to start a rumour (i'd be in the rumours sub forum if i was), i'm just curious on when we might see the eldar 'if' they're being play tested now.

for reference, the (full) quote i'm referring to is

Avid Tournament gamer Pete Foley hasn't added anything to his Eldar army since we spoke to him. In fact, he's loaned his Eldar to the games developers for playtesting (sic), and is currently working on a very different project...

I'm aware this doesn't necessarily mean it's Eldar that are in development, but it got me thinking... As Eldar are an army I've always wanted to return to, and the timescale is of interest to me. Because if the possibility they're in play-testing now meant a 2010 release I'd probably hold off on Tyranids, whereas if this stage of development typically meant >1year to release I'd be more inclined to buy a Tyranid force as I usually start only one 40k army a year.

Necro Angelo
29-11-2009, 12:16
not really trying to start a rumour (i'd be in the rumours sub forum if i was), i'm just curious on when we might see the eldar 'if' they're being play tested now.

for reference, the (full) quote i'm referring to is


I'm aware this doesn't necessarily mean it's Eldar that are in development, but it got me thinking... As Eldar are an army I've always wanted to return to, and the timescale is of interest to me. Because if the possibility they're in play-testing now meant a 2010 release I'd probably hold off on Tyranids, whereas if this stage of development typically meant >1year to release I'd be more inclined to buy a Tyranid force as I usually start only one 40k army a year.

reading this got me very excited (I'm sad, I know.) is this from this month's WD? which page?

Sorros
29-11-2009, 14:37
I don't really think they're in playtesting for a new Eldar codex, probably in playtesting against the new 'Nids. Although I can hope they are getting a new codex ;)

I might just switch to Dark Eldar, as they aren't getting a new codex for a long time, despite them having the oldest. I can use my armies interchangeably if I convert/model them correctly :p

Emeraldw
29-11-2009, 16:13
Brimstone confirmed in the Blood Angels Mini Update that Eldar will NOT be showing up this year. Sorry guys.

edit: *Next* Year!

Sorros
29-11-2009, 16:18
Well, yeah. They can't release a codex in the month we have left until next year--they already have Nids coming out in a few.





;)

Hero adamite
29-11-2009, 16:18
I would love to see a new Eldar codex with some new models but until Tyranids, Necrons and Dark Eldar are released.

Grand Master Raziel
29-11-2009, 16:58
Just sharing a couple of thoughts:

1: The return of the 3-shot starcannon: After starcannons got nerfed, it occurred to me that the problem with starcannons wasn't so much the profile it had so much as the fact that the Eldar list had so many platforms that could carry it. Don't get me wrong, a S6 AP2 Heavy 3 weapon that can be moved and fired in the same turn is absolutely phenomenal, but it'd have been reasonable if there were only one or two platforms for it, but where it really went off the rails was that it could be all over a person's list like a bad rash. If the starcannon option were stripped from everything but, say, Guardian squads and Warwalkers, then you could un-nerf the profile, but you can't achieve balance with the un-nerfed profile and the sheer variety of platforms it can be placed on, because it's just too damn versatile not to take, even for quite a high price.

2: Bright lance: The current rules for the bright lance are an ugly 3rd edition kludge that the system would be better off without. When a player pays points for a vehicle with heavy armor, he expects to reap the benefit of that armor. He should not have opponents telling him, "Sorry, your AV14 might as well be AV12 against my gun over here. So, that effect has to go. Instead, it should be replaced by some kind of bonus to damage table rolls for burning through thicker armor. Players pay points for heavy armor to make it less likely that those vehicles will suffer a Glancing or Penetrating hit, but should one go in, bonuses to the damage tables are fair game.

3: Guardians: Personally, I'm of the opinion that the dex does not need seperate entries for Guardian Defenders and Storm Guardians. For one, the only difference between the two different types of basic troopers is being armed with either a shuricat or pistol+ccw. For another, if I played Eldar, I'd want to be able to field squads of shuricat-armed Guardians that also toted a pair of special weapons and use them as Serpent payload. Maybe that steps on the toes of Dire Avengers too much, but I'd rather use Guardians that way than as bodies around a gun platform or as a half-assed assault unit.

4: FOC-bending: I can understand the reasoning behind wanting Phoenix Lords to allow access to specific Aspect Warriors as Troops, but on the other hand it runs the risk of opening the door to some of the badness of the old Codex: Craftworld Eldar, and I'm not particularly keen to see that again. Maybe instead of making them Troops, they can stay in the category they belong in but still count as scoring as long as their Phoenix Lord is on the table. That'd be easier for the rest of us to swallow, I think.

Alsharoth
29-11-2009, 17:13
I'd like to field My Wraith hawk as a full working unit.

Necro Angelo
29-11-2009, 17:31
Just sharing a couple of thoughts:

1: The return of the 3-shot starcannon: After starcannons got nerfed, it occurred to me that the problem with starcannons wasn't so much the profile it had so much as the fact that the Eldar list had so many platforms that could carry it. Don't get me wrong, a S6 AP2 Heavy 3 weapon that can be moved and fired in the same turn is absolutely phenomenal, but it'd have been reasonable if there were only one or two platforms for it, but where it really went off the rails was that it could be all over a person's list like a bad rash. If the starcannon option were stripped from everything but, say, Guardian squads and Warwalkers, then you could un-nerf the profile, but you can't achieve balance with the un-nerfed profile and the sheer variety of platforms it can be placed on, because it's just too damn versatile not to take, even for quite a high price.

2: Bright lance: The current rules for the bright lance are an ugly 3rd edition kludge that the system would be better off without. When a player pays points for a vehicle with heavy armor, he expects to reap the benefit of that armor. He should not have opponents telling him, "Sorry, your AV14 might as well be AV12 against my gun over here. So, that effect has to go. Instead, it should be replaced by some kind of bonus to damage table rolls for burning through thicker armor. Players pay points for heavy armor to make it less likely that those vehicles will suffer a Glancing or Penetrating hit, but should one go in, bonuses to the damage tables are fair game.

3: Guardians: Personally, I'm of the opinion that the dex does not need seperate entries for Guardian Defenders and Storm Guardians. For one, the only difference between the two different types of basic troopers is being armed with either a shuricat or pistol+ccw. For another, if I played Eldar, I'd want to be able to field squads of shuricat-armed Guardians that also toted a pair of special weapons and use them as Serpent payload. Maybe that steps on the toes of Dire Avengers too much, but I'd rather use Guardians that way than as bodies around a gun platform or as a half-assed assault unit.

4: FOC-bending: I can understand the reasoning behind wanting Phoenix Lords to allow access to specific Aspect Warriors as Troops, but on the other hand it runs the risk of opening the door to some of the badness of the old Codex: Craftworld Eldar, and I'm not particularly keen to see that again. Maybe instead of making them Troops, they can stay in the category they belong in but still count as scoring as long as their Phoenix Lord is on the table. That'd be easier for the rest of us to swallow, I think.

@2: by the same token they should get rid of plaguesords and sniper rifles, then. I paid 35 points each for my T6 wraithguard, now you're telling me they may as well be T4? :rolleyes:

@3: they don't have seperate entries. it states that defender guardians may become storm guardians by swapping their catapult for ccw's and giving up their platform.

Poseidal
29-11-2009, 21:13
2: Bright lance: The current rules for the bright lance are an ugly 3rd edition kludge that the system would be better off without. When a player pays points for a vehicle with heavy armor, he expects to reap the benefit of that armor. He should not have opponents telling him, "Sorry, your AV14 might as well be AV12 against my gun over here. So, that effect has to go. Instead, it should be replaced by some kind of bonus to damage table rolls for burning through thicker armor. Players pay points for heavy armor to make it less likely that those vehicles will suffer a Glancing or Penetrating hit, but should one go in, bonuses to the damage tables are fair game.


Agree, the lance rules are an ugly 3rd edition kludge. The Bright Lance should just be strength 10 (it might as well be for the current points you pay for them).

Grand Master Raziel
29-11-2009, 23:54
@2: by the same token they should get rid of plaguesords and sniper rifles, then. I paid 35 points each for my T6 wraithguard, now you're telling me they may as well be T4? :rolleyes:

I can't comment on plague swords, but what I will say about sniper rifles is that I don't exactly see them hit the table with much frequency, except in Eldar armies (Rangers/Pathfinders). IG players have to take ****** Space Hobbits to get enough sniper rifles to be worth the effort, and the main platform for SM players (Scouts) took a hard nerf, from an effective BS5 to an actual BS3. So, your point is taken, but it's not exactly something you need worry about overly.


@3: they don't have seperate entries. it states that defender guardians may become storm guardians by swapping their catapult for ccw's and giving up their platform.

Well, my bad on the dex organization (must have been thinking about the 3rd edition one), but my point on who gets what upgrades still stands. If Guardian Defenders could take a couple of upgraded assault weapons instead of the heavy weapon platform, we might see them more often.


Agree, the lance rules are an ugly 3rd edition kludge. The Bright Lance should just be strength 10 (it might as well be for the current points you pay for them).

I was thinking either S9 AP1 or S8 AP1 with a rule that gives it a +1 bonus to damage rolls for every point of armor over AV12 it burns through (sort of a nod to the old rule). So, it'd only be able to glance AV14, but have a 50% chance of getting a Destroyed result from a glance.

Squallish
29-11-2009, 23:54
Lance should probably just flat reduce the AV by 1... then it makes more sense fluff-wise.. and you don't have a gun that's equally good against AV12 as AV 14.

Arakanis
30-11-2009, 00:52
1: The return of the 3-shot starcannon: After starcannons got nerfed, it occurred to me that the problem with starcannons wasn't so much the profile it had so much as the fact that the Eldar list had so many platforms that could carry it. Don't get me wrong, a S6 AP2 Heavy 3 weapon that can be moved and fired in the same turn is absolutely phenomenal, but it'd have been reasonable if there were only one or two platforms for it, but where it really went off the rails was that it could be all over a person's list like a bad rash. If the starcannon option were stripped from everything but, say, Guardian squads and Warwalkers, then you could un-nerf the profile, but you can't achieve balance with the un-nerfed profile and the sheer variety of platforms it can be placed on, because it's just too damn versatile not to take, even for quite a high price.

2: Bright lance: The current rules for the bright lance are an ugly 3rd edition kludge that the system would be better off without. When a player pays points for a vehicle with heavy armor, he expects to reap the benefit of that armor. He should not have opponents telling him, "Sorry, your AV14 might as well be AV12 against my gun over here. So, that effect has to go. Instead, it should be replaced by some kind of bonus to damage table rolls for burning through thicker armor. Players pay points for heavy armor to make it less likely that those vehicles will suffer a Glancing or Penetrating hit, but should one go in, bonuses to the damage tables are fair game.

3: Guardians: Personally, I'm of the opinion that the dex does not need seperate entries for Guardian Defenders and Storm Guardians. For one, the only difference between the two different types of basic troopers is being armed with either a shuricat or pistol+ccw. For another, if I played Eldar, I'd want to be able to field squads of shuricat-armed Guardians that also toted a pair of special weapons and use them as Serpent payload. Maybe that steps on the toes of Dire Avengers too much, but I'd rather use Guardians that way than as bodies around a gun platform or as a half-assed assault unit.

4: FOC-bending: I can understand the reasoning behind wanting Phoenix Lords to allow access to specific Aspect Warriors as Troops, but on the other hand it runs the risk of opening the door to some of the badness of the old Codex: Craftworld Eldar, and I'm not particularly keen to see that again. Maybe instead of making them Troops, they can stay in the category they belong in but still count as scoring as long as their Phoenix Lord is on the table. That'd be easier for the rest of us to swallow, I think.

1. Honestly, seeing some of the weapons that the Guard have received, and looking forward into what lies in the arsenal of the Tyranids, I doubt that a ubiquitous heavy 3 starcannon is that bad. Personally, I feel that Eldar plasma should be upgraded to strength 7. I see no reason why when the Eldar have mastered plasma weaponry that it would translate into "Oh, LESS power, MORE containment fields"

2.I agree that the current Lance rule makes no sense, however, I like the flavor of it, but I'd have to think about how it could be changed to represent that kind of firepower without being too powerful or too generic. Maybe reduce the armour-value by a set number. (1 or 2)

3. This has already been ninja'd. They already are one FOC, however, it would be nice if they had some more war gear flexibility (Grenades, dammit)

4. The only badness that C:CWE gave us, was Ranger Disruption Tables, Wraithlords as Troops, Seer Councils, and Naudu Fireheart Lists. FOC switching was really not that much of a concern.

Alessander
30-11-2009, 01:20
* Redistribute of exsting Aspects across the FOC, IMHO with so many elite choices GW would sell more aspect warriors if some were moved around (fire dragons as heavy support?). Especially needed if MORE aspects warriors are added.

* mandatory exarchs in aspect squads. will help with sales.

* Boost to Phoenix Lords to make up for their massive point cost. Anyone even us Baharroth since 3rd ed?

* and of course the ever-wanted Spider and Spear phoenix Lords...

* The 4th ed boost to Dire Avengers was great, but it made Guardians obsolete. A boost to Guardians would help. They seem to be the equivlient of conscripts (ie inferior to the rest of the army), perhaps having them take up 1 Troops choice per 2 squads would make them more attractive?

* Depending on how Harlequins are treated in Codex Dark Eldar, it'd be nice to have whatever they get :D

* Webway portals like the USF had as standard? Since 5th ed is so objective based, (and GW's going to be selling webway gates soon) maybe a nod from epic where the Eldar player (pre-game) can replace an objective with a (static) a webway gate and have reserves c...

* Bonesingers. GW has a model for them dammit, we want some rules! perhaps having them as general musicians (remember those old muscian models?) for morale boosts in guardian squads?

* support weapons. beyond weapon statline tweaks, perhaps make them more mobile? eldar are so high tech, their artillery should be able to move and fire...

* another nod to epic - make use of the "dying race" fluff in game terms. voluntary fallback, perhaps only for fearless aspect units? or maybe an eldar version of ATSKNF?

* different "flavors" of Avatars? it would make sense that the awakened avatar would be different depending on what aspect warrior awakened/was sacrificed it...

* eldar as supposed to be the most powerful psykers out there. more psyker powers and options (leading from fluff, perhaps warlocks based on their former aspect? ie a Reaper Warlock would have different powers/wargear than a Spears warlock). it'd really be the only way to get veteran players to buy warlocks when they already have a ton...

Ghost-13
30-11-2009, 01:39
Going back to the "How many heavy weapons per guardian squad" bit, i was thinking for every 10 models they should get one heavy weapon and one support weapon (you know, a vibro cannon, shadow weaver, or D-cannon).

The support weapons still can't be moved and fired, so that way you could take 2 heavy weapons and be mobile, or take 4 and be static. Would also help to see more of those support weapons on the field.

Also i'd like to see the D-cannon get its ranged increased to 36".

Kinda going along with this too maybe storm squad guardians should be able to take 1 special weapon and 1 heavy weapon per 10 models. or maybe not, the more I think about that the more I don't like it.

Arakanis
30-11-2009, 01:46
* Redistribute of exsting Aspects across the FOC, IMHO with so many elite choices GW would sell more aspect warriors if some were moved around (fire dragons as heavy support?). Especially needed if MORE aspects warriors are added.
The only problem with that is right now, Fire Dragons are used in conjunction with Falcons, which makes things tricky.



* mandatory exarchs in aspect squads. will help with sales.
It really won't. Everyone uses Exarchs ANYWAYS. Making them mandatory will **** people off like making the weapon platform mandatory.




* Boost to Phoenix Lords to make up for their massive point cost. Anyone even us Baharroth since 3rd ed?

* and of course the ever-wanted Spider and Spear phoenix Lords...
Definitely. Phoenix Lords should be incredibly powerful and expensive.




* The 4th ed boost to Dire Avengers was great, but it made Guardians obsolete. A boost to Guardians would help. They seem to be the equivlient of conscripts (ie inferior to the rest of the army), perhaps having them take up 1 Troops choice per 2 squads would make them more attractive?
Possibly. A stats boost would really help them just as much though.



* Depending on how Harlequins are treated in Codex Dark Eldar, it'd be nice to have whatever they get :D Seconded. More Harlequins = Happier Eldar Players




* Webway portals like the USF had as standard? Since 5th ed is so objective based, (and GW's going to be selling webway gates soon) maybe a nod from epic where the Eldar player (pre-game) can replace an objective with a (static) a webway gate and have reserves c... I really would like this idea a lot too, Webway portals should be something that every Farseer can employ.




* Bonesingers. GW has a model for them dammit, we want some rules! perhaps having them as general musicians (remember those old muscian models?) for morale boosts in guardian squads? Oh hell no. No *******' musicians. Bonesingers are not *******' morale support, they're psyker technicians. Some sort of Synergy with Wraithlords and Wraithguard would be cool as hell though.




* support weapons. beyond weapon statline tweaks, perhaps make them more mobile? eldar are so high tech, their artillery should be able to move and fire... S&P should be allowed for Support Weapons and Dark Reapers if not just outright Relentless,




* another nod to epic - make use of the "dying race" fluff in game terms. voluntary fallback, perhaps only for fearless aspect units? or maybe an eldar version of ATSKNF? Hmm. I think we could all go for this.




* different "flavors" of Avatars? it would make sense that the awakened avatar would be different depending on what aspect warrior awakened/was sacrificed it... Yeah, I'd say Hellebore's idea of this was really good. Take a variety of upgrades to change how it plays.




* eldar as supposed to be the most powerful psykers out there. more psyker powers and options (leading from fluff, perhaps warlocks based on their former aspect? ie a Reaper Warlock would have different powers/wargear than a Spears warlock). it'd really be the only way to get veteran players to buy warlocks when they already have a ton... That's an interesting idea, I really want Warlocks to be able to go back into any squad the way they could in 3rd.

mafty
30-11-2009, 04:54
I think all the obvious changes have been suggested. I mean at this point I think GW has to consider sales, and what ISNT selling for eldar. I mean who has ever seen a PL run? and hardly no one uses swooping hawks or warp spiders anymore. There are just a TON of things in the Eldar Codex that no one will ever use in 5th which makes you think GW knows they have to do something to the unsellable units to make them more enticing.

There are a lot of outdated units they make (storm guardian units being SPECIAL ORDER ONLY) which need serious updating.

The sad thing is I dont think were going to see a new codex for a long time, over a year atleast (next year is already full of other armies getting updated)

Pete_x
30-11-2009, 05:10
Well sure if GW wants it to sell (and they do), They'd go for pimped Swooping hawks, Shinning spear, Vypers and Plastic wraithguards.

Plastic wraithguard (pimped) would suck in everyone to who their metal price was a total turnoff.

Swooping hawk (especially if they can be made scoring via autarch/PL) would sell a lot. Imagine a Orbital strike attack every turn or so that can score on the last turn.

Shinning spear would sell a lot to Saim-hainfans if they stopped sucking. Turbo boost rules in 5th always begs for them to be made effective.

Vypers would fit into the whole mech edition theme perfectly if they weren't so fragile.

On the other hand Gw probably espect every eldar player and their mother to have Fire dragons, so don't hold your breath on them becoming better.

big squig
30-11-2009, 05:38
I would be totally down with vipers being like attack bikes. A 2 wound, T4, 3+ save jetbike. You should be able to get a squad of 1-3 as a fast attack choice, or buy one for a guardian jetbike squad.

Arakanis
30-11-2009, 05:52
I would be totally down with vipers being like attack bikes. A 2 wound, T4, 3+ save jetbike. You should be able to get a squad of 1-3 as a fast attack choice, or buy one for a guardian jetbike squad.

I stated them up as T6 actually for testing once. It actually worked out pretty well. It makes them a lot more survivable.

big squig
30-11-2009, 06:31
I stated them up as T6 actually for testing once. It actually worked out pretty well. It makes them a lot more survivable.
Nah, T6 seems way too survivable. Eldar are supposed to be glass jaw. T6 puts space marine attack bikes to shame.

Arakanis
30-11-2009, 06:38
Nah, T6 seems way too survivable. Eldar are supposed to be glass jaw. T6 puts space marine attack bikes to shame.

Pah. Eldar aren't supposed to be a glass cannon, they're supposed to be quality > quantity. Physically tough no, but their technology should more than compensate.

Also, the Vyper has probably 16 times the mass of a Space Marine attack bike, it would be ridiculous if it was just as easy to destroy.

Silentexile
30-11-2009, 07:46
As far as Shining Spears go, possibly giving them a 12" charge range or the Scout USR so they can outflank and charge the enemy would be a decent way to get them where they need to be quickly. The problem of their survivability is the main issue with the unit though, their lack of attacks crippling them if their numbers are reduced below full strength.

Hawks just need something like Heroic Intervention from the SM Codex to claim their own unique niche in the Eldar Codex of backline armor hunter. In case anyone isn't aware of it, Heroic Intervention allows Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs to assault after deep-striking. Hawks that could deep-strike, slap several Haywire Grenades on a tank, drop a grenade pack somewhere else on the table, then leap back into reserves all in one turn I believe would definitely see some play.

Spiders need a little tweaking or a slight points drop to be in line with 5th ed points costs.

Vypers being Attack Bike style would be very interesting, making them AV 11 front like the Pirahna, but not open-topped (same minor energy field that protects the War Walker pilot would be in effet here,) would also be a reasonable fix. Major points drop as well.

Arakanis
30-11-2009, 08:19
As far as Shining Spears go, possibly giving them a 12" charge range or the Scout USR so they can outflank and charge the enemy would be a decent way to get them where they need to be quickly. The problem of their survivability is the main issue with the unit though, their lack of attacks crippling them if their numbers are reduced below full strength. I really do think they should get a second close combat weapon, and count as S3 power weapons after the charge. That would make them worth SO much more.



Hawks just need something like Heroic Intervention from the SM Codex to claim their own unique niche in the Eldar Codex of backline armor hunter. In case anyone isn't aware of it, Heroic Intervention allows Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs to assault after deep-striking. Hawks that could deep-strike, slap several Haywire Grenades on a tank, drop a grenade pack somewhere else on the table, then leap back into reserves all in one turn I believe would definitely see some play.
You bring up a good point. Haywire Grenades need some help though. Glancing is about worthless right now. Maybe have them cause a variety of different effects, like random movement, firing on the closest unit (That isn't the Hawks), wargear failure, rather than simple "roll on the damage chart" Then again, if they just penetrated on 2+ that would be cool too.