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blameless
17-11-2009, 23:26
Well iv been crunching the numbers and think that the space wolf "Logan wing" is best suited to 1850PTS or higher because of his base cost. But when compared to deathwing I think it can still work at 1500 pts (with the same amount of bodies on the board)

Here are my pro's and cons lists...

Wolves PROS=

1-counter attack
2-mixed weapons (wound allocation is handy and nice options)
3-Logan Grimnar (yes expensive!! but a very strong character at least)
4-transports (LOS blockers+wep platforms? not strong but still an option)
5-lone wolves support/synergy
6-Thunder wolves support/synergy
7-acute senses for night fighting
8-storm shields 3++
9-cyclones are better (Heavy 2)
10-cheap daka pred support
11-mixed armour (can buy spare wounds for 18pts each )
12-cheaper vindicators support


Death Wing PROS=

1-can teleport/1st turn teleport
2-fearless! (so no running away like the cowards they are not! :D)
3-cheaper HQ to make them score (Im looking at you Mr Belial below average)
4-cheaper cyclones :p(also suck cyclones)

So like I said, once you pass the 1500pt ceiling then wolves really gain the advantage but even at 1500 it looks like they still have the edge over their bone coloured brethren.
Purely for their many varied options availible.

example list...

Logan leading 25 terminators
5 squads of 5 with...
-cyclone or assault cannon
-chain fist
-power fist
-wolf claw
comes in at 225 pts per squad (average all round squads)
leaving comparative points spare and same amount of bodies on the board as deathwing.

What do you think? who wins? what have I missed?

Arvendragon
17-11-2009, 23:54
DEATHWING FOREVER!

In a game, Pupwing would win, but everyone knows they're just clones of the Deathwing. Now, when your guys are painted white while playing SW rules, that's the epic win.

spacewolf_sven
17-11-2009, 23:56
The space wolves will never be beaten!!
I notice they have 3x the pros



(I just know someone will now list the cons...)

badguyshaveallthefun
18-11-2009, 01:05
Bah, Deathwing will always win out over the Logan Wing. (In my heart anyway)

LonelyPath
18-11-2009, 01:17
Bah, Deathwing will always win out over the Logan Wing. (In my heart anyway)

I agree whole-heartedly.

Arakanis
18-11-2009, 01:29
Here are my pro's and cons lists...
Here we go...
Wolves PROS=

1-counter attack
2-mixed weapons (wound allocation is handy and nice options)
3-Logan Grimnar (yes expensive!! but a very strong character at least)
4-transports (LOS blockers+wep platforms? not strong but still an option)
how are transports a pro for pupwing and not for Deathwing?
5-lone wolves support/synergy
Technically, that's not wolfwing.
6-Thunder wolves support/synergy
See above.
7-acute senses for night fighting
8-storm shields 3++
9-cyclones are better (Heavy 2)
10-cheap daka pred support
Not really wolfwing.
11-mixed armour (can buy spare wounds for 18pts each )
12-cheaper vindicators support
Still Not really wolfwing


Death Wing PROS=

1-can teleport/1st turn teleport
2-fearless!
3-cheaper HQ to make them score
4-cheaper cyclones
5-mixed weapons
6-Land Raiders
7-auto-glance smoke screens
8-Belial (with SS/TH he's still tough to beat)
9-Terminator Chaplains with a Captains Statline
10-free spotlights on dreadnoughts and Land Raiders take care of nightfighting
11-Cheaper Venerable Dreadnoughts
12-deep strike without having to pay for drop pods.
13-Ravenwing synergy, I know this isn't technically deathwing, but it's still HUGE. Dualwing is incredibly powerful.



Fixed all that there for ya.

blameless
18-11-2009, 02:28
Fixed all that there for ya.

Na you blew it.


how are transports a pro for pupwing and not for Deathwing?

Because Deathwing terminators cannot purchase dedicated transports outside of Land Raiders... Wolf wing (although they can fit in them) can get pods, Rhino's and Razorbacks also...


Technically, that's not wolfwing.

Not really wolfwing.

Still Not really wolfwing

Well nothing in the fluff defines wolf wing except for the fact that it may be similar to deathwing in that it has many terminators... Otherwise you can support loads of terminators however you want. (And awesome synergy is to be had with the pups options)

I would like to see you answer how lone wolves in terminator armor don't "technically" count as Logan wing also :eyebrows:



Death Wing PROS=

Here we go... :D


4-cheaper cyclones

by 10 pts and rejected for being only heavy 1

5-mixed weapons

nothing as versatile and varied as logan wing mix options

6-Land Raiders

and wolves can get what? oh yea that's right... land raiders... and redeemer

7-auto-glance smoke screens

This is a REAL PRO addition :D

8-Belial (with SS/TH he's still tough to beat)

comparatively rubbish hands down, any way you slice him

9-Terminator Chaplains with a Captains Statline

2nd PRO addition but not space wolf lord stat line

10-free spotlights on dreadnoughts and Land Raiders take care of nightfighting

Also for the wolves so I dont understand your point? and that doesnt "Take care" of it anyway

11-Cheaper Venerable Dreadnoughts

PRO 3

12-deep strike without having to pay for drop pods.

erm... I already made that point, please refer to point 1:eyebrows:

13-Ravenwing synergy, I know this isn't technically deathwing, but it's still HUGE. Dualwing is incredibly powerful.

Thats not technically deathwing :p and wolves can get bikes also

Thanks for adding the 3 points I missed

Deathwing PROS=
5-venerable dread is cheaper but not as good as the spacewolf one.
6-chaplains are better (but not WS6)
7-auto glance smoke launchers (This is a real pro for the DW raiders)

Anything else missed out?

Arakanis
18-11-2009, 02:40
Oh sorry, when you refer to Deathwing you're refering to Deathwing Terminator Squads, Land Raiders, Dreadnoughts and TDA characters. It's very specific.

I assumed that Wolfwing was a similar set up. However, if Wolfwing is just a lot of Wolf guard with anything from the codex, then I submit that Dual-wing is superior to Wolfguard with back up. First turn turboboost 24" then Deathwing Assault, awesome strategy, has one me a couple tournies actually.

Also, remember Dark Angels can have a Techmarine and four plasma cannon servitors for each non-dedicated vehicle. Right now I run two squads of them in my Greenwing army. cheap plasma cannons are awesome.

airmang
18-11-2009, 02:51
how about you could also add that Loganwing can have 3 more Termie characters, which can be very powerful, and more versatile (especially since SW could throw in some fairly cheap, and MUCH better, psykers in TDA). And the synergy between Logan, and a TDA wolf priest, is much more powerful, especially when he does his howl.

Hicks
18-11-2009, 03:12
Space Wolves are better than the other marines at... everything, wing armies included. :(

blameless
18-11-2009, 04:18
Oh sorry, when you refer to Deathwing you're refering to Deathwing Terminator Squads, Land Raiders, Dreadnoughts and TDA characters. It's very specific.

I assumed that Wolfwing was a similar set up. However, if Wolfwing is just a lot of Wolf guard with anything from the codex, then I submit that Dual-wing is superior to Wolfguard with back up. First turn turboboost 24" then Deathwing Assault, awesome strategy, has one me a couple tournies actually.

Have you got/read the space wolf codex?
Dual-wing is good but I call shananagins on "superior" to wolfguard with backup.


Also, remember Dark Angels can have a Techmarine and four plasma cannon servitors for each non-dedicated vehicle. Right now I run two squads of them in my Greenwing army. cheap plasma cannons are awesome.

"cheap" plasma cannons???
You do realize that long fangs are also 35pts each with plasma cannon? (identical to your plasma cannon servitors) but have a 3+ save/ST4/T4 to boot


Techmarine with 4 servo plasma cannons=215pts
Long fangs with 5 plasma cannons=190pts

Dont forget long fangs can fire at two seperate targets also :D
In fact you could have a terminator WG leading that squad with a cyclone missile launcher to boot for only slightly more points than your servitor bundle...

Also interesting to note that SW iron priests can get thrall servitors with plasma cannons cheaper than DA ones... its only 5pts per model but still a thought.

Da_Killa
18-11-2009, 04:21
i would say deathwing, but a dualwing army would be even more powerful

mr.kislev
18-11-2009, 06:10
and here comes th flame war.

ps wolf wing = awsome
wolf wing with back up = more awsome

Phelix
18-11-2009, 08:23
Go Deathwing, I may be a little biased because Dark Angels are my favorite chapter, but really Warrior Monks are cool, and you can greenstuff robes on some of them.

Badger[Fr]
18-11-2009, 09:36
Drop Pods are hardly an advantage for the Wolfwing. They grant an easy a KP and make the cheap Wolf Guard squad as expensive as a (arguably mediocre) Vanilla Terminator Squad... They may be more reliable than deepstriking, but all that it takes is a single teleport homer to negate that advantage.

laudarkul
18-11-2009, 10:19
Deathwing...They fit perfectly also the idea of a elite kill team (SW are more about space assault). Beside winning there must be also fluff and so on (in my opinion).

Hypaspist
18-11-2009, 10:21
Reference the mixed weapon loadouts.



nothing as versatile and varied as logan wing mix options


Well, I do so hate to be a Pedant....

Perhaps the Deathwing can't be as varied or versatile in the options they can equip......
BUT

The point you are missing here, if you are really serious about comparing two 1500 point armies, is that within this points restriction the Deathwing Terminators can take *any* loadout they desire within the limitations set down by the rules at no cost change. Space Wolf terminators have the points disadvantage of having to cost up for some options, so therefore the flexibility of the Deathwing is superior.

Arguing that the variety of Space Wolf options is not an argument, it's fact, but within the specific arena of a 1500 point army, then the flexibility becomes just as important.


First turn turboboost 24" then Deathwing Assault, awesome strategy, has one me a couple tournies actually.

Technically illegal. You Deathwing assault then move your army. so it should be...
<Scout Move> Scout 12"
<Turn 1> DWA, Move Bikes, Dakka, assault with Bikes (if appropriate).

ernest101
18-11-2009, 13:16
Well i dont see logan walking up to Ghaz-something and saying "whats up" and surviving after that... *Me with my deathwing goggles*

on fluff note, i would say logan, he is the more experienced one, and if i am right the oldest marine(not dreadnought) alive. Belial on the other hand is more of a tactical genius, altho is he also good in cc... i would put my money on logan...

SilverDrake
18-11-2009, 16:41
not the oldest, ulrik's older but he's been the longest serving Chaptermaster to be alive.
As to say i'dgowiththe Wolfwing ^^.
Why? because you can field Thunderwolve Cavalry and you can take Longfangs and/or a bunch of Scouts, and it's still furry... sorry meant fluffy Wolfwing :P

regards

Urath
18-11-2009, 17:07
What? Ulrik is not a Chapter Master and he's not the oldest. Dante is the oldest Space Marine currently in existence; not including Dreadnoughts.

Clearly Deathwing *should* be superior, but it's very close. I have both codices but haven't bothered comparing them. I agree with Arakanis' pros.

To the OP: You can't discount any of those points when you've included 'pros' for the Wolf Guard list, it's not 'Wolfwing', that aren't in a form of TDA or that originate from a 'standard' First Company style force. Scouts, Vindicators etc... In that case, Deathwing can make use of Ravenwing forces and regular Dark Angel battle companies. Land Raider dedicated transports, Vindicators and Devestator squads, Venerable Dreadnoughts and Scouts, Company Veterans, Whirlwinds, Predators, Rhinos, Drop Pods, Techmarines, Servitors etc. You also didn't mention the Deathwing Command Squad.

Your clear bias makes this thread pretty much invalid.

Sir_Turalyon
18-11-2009, 17:15
Deathwing PROs

14. Deathwing command squad - with "extra attack for everyone" standard and older apothecary rules, tailor-made to benefit terminators . Fact that standard has nice synergy with chaplain's litanies of hate is a nice bonus.

15. Ability to take Deathwing as Troops and Elites. Gives advantage only in very large abttles, but gives it.





8-Belial (with SS/TH he's still tough to beat)

comparatively rubbish hands down, any way you slice him

Belial is not only cheaper then Logan for character you *must* take in your army, he's dirty cheap compared with other characters with similar stats and loadout. His only problem is too few options.


Thats not technically deathwing and wolves can get bikes also

Yet synergy is there - Ravenwing scout, have telepoet homers and squadron splits uinto three independent units, giving Deathwing proper three beacons on table before their 1st turn deep strike. Swiftclaws just drive they bikes and are cheap, Wolf Guard get no bonuses from their presence.

You seem to be convinced from the begining that Wolf Guard spam is superior; what's the point of this thread?

EDIT:
16. Mortis dreadnaughts. Yeah they are Forgeworld, but they are one of exclusive DA options, even in so-called pure DW armies.

Not 17. DA Wolf Guard Battle Leaders have psychic hoods (weak but with unlimited range) , extra invunerable save and pretend to be Librarians ;). Could make a point here if Chaplains weren't even better.

Space Wolves PROS:

13. In big battles can bring four characters and character-like Lone Wolves. Offset by DW being able to bring 3 more Terminator Squads.

DA_WarM
18-11-2009, 19:18
Technically illegal. You Deathwing assault then move your army. so it should be...
<Scout Move> Scout 12"
<Turn 1> DWA, Move Bikes, Dakka, assault with Bikes (if appropriate).

Technically, as per 5th edition rules, you can turbo-boost in your scout move.
<Scout Move> 24"
<Turn 1>DWA and all the rest.

DA deserve a better treatment! Deathwing are the elite Terminators of the Emperium!

Zeroth
18-11-2009, 19:35
Deathwing by heart, Wolfwing on paper.

I love the fact that a Deathwing player gets looked upon as stylish and sporty, for picking an unusual army and one that really can't be "cheesed out"

While Wolfwing it's more of a copycat to Deathwing, however still stylish and sporty in my eyes. It's not an easy-win list to go with.

All in all, I don't think the difference is huge, it's there but it's not all that.


I welcome any Wolfwing player to join a similar game experience.
Myself I'm loving it, my win ratio ain't much to brag about but I'm having fun :)


Araknis, do you play either of the armies? Just curious:p

Sir_Turalyon
18-11-2009, 20:04
While Wolfwing it's more of a copycat to Deathwing, however still stylish and sporty in my eyes. It's not an easy-win list to go with.


They are two sides of the same coin in curious way. In DA, Terminators are less versitale and slightlly more expansive, but army list itself seems tailored to support Deathwing - like Ravenwing rules, Itterogator / DW Command squad synergy, low points price of units that work well with DW, like Belial or Venerable Dreadnoughts, meaning they leave points for Terminators and Deathwing Assault Rule. It almost looks like supporting Deathwing was the theme for rest of army, like some units are not supposed to be good on theor own, but good in supporting DW.

In case of Pupwing there are no such synergies, just superior Terminator bulid - with best parts of DW, Ultramarine and CSM terminator rules - that you can spam spam spam spam spam and other units that give no special bonuses to Terminators, but are superior one on one to their DA equivalent - if you can afford them.

LonelyPath
18-11-2009, 20:38
Technically, as per 5th edition rules, you can turbo-boost in your scout move.
<Scout Move> 24"
<Turn 1>DWA and all the rest.

I just checked the rulebook myself and Ravenwing can indeed turboboost in their scout move :)

Hypaspist
18-11-2009, 23:07
I just checked the rulebook myself and Ravenwing can indeed turboboost in their scout move :)

That's not what your codex (or mine) says under the Ravenwing Entry, (pg 27 left hand side middle, under fearless where it says scouts) it *explicitly* states that no model may make a turbo boost whilst using the scouts special rule,
Codex > Rulebook = No turbo boost for Ravenwing bikers....

So I am afraid it IS a 12" scout move, followed by DWA if you are using it, followed by your normal move.... (as stated)

;)

SilverDrake
18-11-2009, 23:37
What? Ulrik is not a Chapter Master and he's not the oldest. Dante is the oldest Space Marine currently in existence; not including Dreadnoughts.

Sry but the "he" is stating to Logan ( I thought that was clear from the context), and i was pretty sure it stated he was the longest serving chaptermaster.
And i only said Ulrik's older than Logan.

personally i don't like the BA Fluff so im not that familiar with them, but i thought dante was dead?

Arakanis
18-11-2009, 23:47
Sry but the "he" is stating to Logan ( I thought that was clear from the context), and i was pretty sure it stated he was the longest serving chaptermaster.
And i only said Ulrik's older than Logan.

personally i don't like the BA Fluff so im not that familiar with them, but i thought dante was dead?

You're thinking of Tycho. Dante is still alive and well. He is the oldest living Marine (excluding dreadnoughts) and as of 999.M41 been the Chapter Master of the blood angels for some 1,100 years.

Logan has been Chapter Master for 700 years.

Edit: It is stated that he is ONE of the longest serving Masters. Dante holds the title for THE longest serving Chapter Master AND the Oldest loyalist Astartes who isn't a Dreadnought.

SilverDrake
19-11-2009, 00:00
ah ok my fault ^^

I stand corrected.

But to get back to topic, i would say there is the fluffwise correct insertion of Wolfscouts, who ar a member of Logans Great Wolf company, and just imagine the synergy of advancing Terminators, with Wolfscouts coming in from the Flanks and Backs to hurl the enemy into the Fangs of Terminators.

As well there is the Thunderwolf cavalry which i think somewhere in the codex is stated that there are at least some in the great Company of the Great wolf.
So you get a fast Pack which is a terrible good and fast Unit, so in matters is wolfy and fluffwise a good thing to.

I think there are many thinks who make wolfes Gameswise atm superior (not that much but alot) but as i like to state its also a matter of the date the codex s been made, and the newer codexi are a much mor tactical bunch when the old ones.

regards

self biased
19-11-2009, 04:31
belial is not a strong character. he is, however, less than half the cost of Logan Grimnar. what does the math suggest with belial and an interrogator chaplain attatched to a close combat squad? hell, at fifteen hundred points, i can take both /b/ and a chaplain for about the same cost as logan.

Hashshashin
19-11-2009, 06:35
That's not what your codex (or mine) says under the Ravenwing Entry, (pg 27 left hand side middle, under fearless where it says scouts) it *explicitly* states that no model may make a turbo boost whilst using the scouts special rule,
Codex > Rulebook = No turbo boost for Ravenwing bikers....

So I am afraid it IS a 12" scout move, followed by DWA if you are using it, followed by your normal move.... (as stated)

;)

Truth.

It's also stated in the DA FAQ on GW site. RW cannot 24boost during their Scout Move because the Codex says they can't explicitly.

Personally I play DW and was a little upset when they gave the SW the WolfWing option, but I don't care enough to change the way I've been playing by using the SW rules or anything like that.

If you're playing, or thinking of playing, an all Termie army to have a power build you're not going to be happy with what you find and could look in many other better places. DW is an incredibly hard army to play, you're always substantially outnumbered, and TDA Armour is good but its not indestructible by any means.(I've had whole squads wasted by one lucky Vindicater shot)

But I love playing them and they are alot of fun as well as a serious tactical challenge to play and if I pull a draw, I feel pretty good.

blameless
19-11-2009, 23:17
Clearly Deathwing *should* be superior, but it's very close. I have both codices but haven't bothered comparing them. I agree with Arakanis' pros.

Maybe before commenting you should compare them? (since this is the point of the thread) :eyebrows:


To the OP: You can't discount any of those points when you've included 'pros' for the Wolf Guard list, it's not 'Wolfwing', that aren't in a form of TDA or that originate from a 'standard' First Company style force. Scouts, Vindicators etc... In that case, Deathwing can make use of Ravenwing forces and regular Dark Angel battle companies. Land Raider dedicated transports, Vindicators and Devestator squads, Venerable Dreadnoughts and Scouts, Company Veterans, Whirlwinds, Predators, Rhinos, Drop Pods, Techmarines, Servitors etc. You also didn't mention the Deathwing Command Squad.

I have read this paragraph 3 times and still don't have any idea what you are trying to say :confused:


Your clear bias makes this thread pretty much invalid.

So let me get this straight... If I think "Logan wing" is a superior force at 1500pts than deathwing, start a thread about it, and then try and prove it, this suddenly makes the whole thread invalid?

Nope... but your comment above is :D

blameless
19-11-2009, 23:41
In case of Pupwing there are no such synergies, just superior Terminator bulid

erm... lone wolves? thunder wolves? that's some pretty good synergy right there :confused:


Deathwing PROs
14. Deathwing command squad - with "extra attack for everyone"

yerp... Logan adds +1 attack also just like the banner (only once per game though so a good point)


standard and older apothecary rules, tailor-made to benefit terminators.

Yes thats a good point and is tailor made to suit. Not flash but... wolves can pay 18pts for an extra wolf guard in 3+ armour and there's a spare wound


Fact that standard has nice synergy with chaplain's litanies of hate is a nice bonus.

logan gives his squad preferred enemy which is far superior than chaplains 1off re roll.


15. Ability to take Deathwing as Troops and Elites. Gives advantage only in very large battles, but gives it.

This is totally incorrect and an invalid point.
DW have a max of 5 men per squad so can take a maximum of 45 terminators 3 elite and 6 troop...
"logan wing" can take up to 10 terminators per squad... 6 troop squads=60 terminators.


Yet synergy is there - Ravenwing scout, have telepoet homers and squadron splits uinto three independent units, giving Deathwing proper three beacons on table before their 1st turn deep strike. Swiftclaws just drive they bikes and are cheap, Wolf Guard get no bonuses from their presence.

valid point :D


You seem to be convinced from the begining that Wolf Guard spam is superior; what's the point of this thread?

To discuss it, I am almost convinced but some of the points raised in this thread I had not thought of. So obviously there is a point... to discuss it. :eyebrows:


16. Mortis dreadnaughts. Yeah they are Forgeworld, but they are one of exclusive DA options, even in so-called pure DW armies.

Erm... :cries: I hate to be the bearer of bad news but all the new marine codex chapters have the mortis option available now including space wolves... No forgeworld necessary.


17. DA Wolf Guard Battle Leaders have psychic hoods (weak but with unlimited range) , extra invunerable save and pretend to be Librarians ;). Could make a point here if Chaplains weren't even better.

Good point! DW librarians unlimited range hoods are helpful.


Space Wolves PROS:
13. In big battles can bring four characters and character-like Lone Wolves. Offset by DW being able to bring 3 more Terminator Squads.

See my above point about DW having less terminators available in bigger games :eyebrows:

Hypaspist
19-11-2009, 23:44
This is totally incorrect and an invalid point.
DW have a max of 5 men per squad so can take a maximum of 45 terminators 3 elite and 6 troop...
"logan wing" can take up to 10 terminators per squad... 6 troop squads=60 terminators.




So we aren't talking about a 1500 point army?

blameless
20-11-2009, 00:47
So we aren't talking about a 1500 point army?

Please read his post before you post :eyebrows: His point was that DW can have more terminators in larger battles. Which is incorrect.

Arakanis
20-11-2009, 02:51
Please read his post before you post :eyebrows: His point was that DW can have more terminators in larger battles. Which is incorrect.

Well, while that's true. We still have 3 FA slots for Ravenwing Squadrons. The synergy between Ravenwing and Deathwing is huge. There is NO Synergy between Wolfguard Terminators and Lone wolves or Thunderwolves. None of those models has any ability that enhances any other, thus, no Synergy.

I play Dark Angels and Deathwing.

I've played Space Wolves (old and new) but I no longer collect them

Netfreakk
20-11-2009, 03:06
I'm a DW player and The Pups got is better. What's to discuss? Yea, loyalty to the chapter, etc etc. I still play mine as DW, but I have no illusions that it's superior. Still, a bad general will lose even with a superior army, and a better general can win with an inferior army. This does not however show point for point, options to options that a PURE Terminator army would favor DW. I'm assuming that this topic was based upon the notion that it's going to be just TDA armies so.... yea SW win. Boo....

Horus38
20-11-2009, 03:32
Dark Angels ftw :cool:

blameless
20-11-2009, 03:54
Well, while that's true. We still have 3 FA slots for Ravenwing Squadrons. The synergy between Ravenwing and Deathwing is huge. There is NO Synergy between Wolfguard Terminators and Lone wolves or Thunderwolves. None of those models has any ability that enhances any other, thus, no Synergy.

This last word from you makes me think you either:
have not read the space wolf codex OR...
have any idea how it works :confused:

1-Lone wolves... by absorbing disproportionate amounts of fire to kill them (ETERNAL WARRIOR 2 WOUNDS/FNP/TDA/STORM SHIELD/fenrisian abalitive wounds) they draw the pain away from your other scoring squads. They give up a kill point if ALIVE at the end of the battle so if they are ignored they will tie up squads, kill tanks or go toe to toe with monstrous creatures and to serious damage. Very tactical and very enhancing to the overall army.

2-Thunderwolves... ARE CAVALRY! 2 wound/T5/4 rending attacks have a charge range of 19-24", cost only a bit more per model than a std terminator and are ST10 with a fist to boot! I cant see how having this counter attack threat range, speed and brutality in assault is not at all enhancing to a footsloggin bunch of terminators???

In fact im so amazed at your comment I have started a poll to see what the rest of the warseer community think about this.
(which can be seen below)

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231526

Netfreakk
20-11-2009, 04:02
I think he was stating that:

DW / RW were specifically made to compliment each other, fluff / rules. Where as those other units were not.

I "could" play DW with a bunch of Assault marines, as they would soak up shots, have decent range of movement, can kill tanks, an tie up stuff, but they aren't "made" specifically to compliment DW.

blameless
20-11-2009, 04:06
I think he was stating that:

DW / RW were specifically made to compliment each other, fluff / rules. Where as those other units were not.

I "could" play DW with a bunch of Assault marines, as they would soak up shots, have decent range of movement, can kill tanks, an tie up stuff, but they aren't "made" specifically to compliment DW.

True, but that's not what he said :)

Netfreakk
20-11-2009, 04:10
True, but that's not what he said :)



I could be wrong, but I thought he meant that cuz of this sentence:


None of those models has any ability that enhances any other, thus, no Synergy.

Arakanis
20-11-2009, 04:14
Netfreakk, you are correct. Some units/models have Synergy, in that they have abilities that are specifically effective in combination with others, and less so by themselves.

Dualwing takes advantage of that. Loganwing has no such abilities.

Anyways, check out my post in the other poll about Synergy. I explain it pretty well and in detail.

FaztGitz
20-11-2009, 04:27
If we are talking about PURE Deathwing style armies, I would go with a tie. Both sides have heavy pros and cons but if ANYTHING I would give the slight edge to Loganwing due to updated rules.

If we are talking about using all the options in the codex (like doublewing) Swolfs win 100%.

Dropping your termies 12" into the board is cool, but Loganwing can bring to it's fore:

1. Relentless Devs w/ Lascannons.
2. TWC
3. Amazing psychic defense
4. Strong mixed weapon units
5. Updated rules

Deathwing can do the mixed weapons, but our TH/SS suck and really we need our squad to be shooting or assault. Mixing just isn't effective enough in a competitive environment I find.

By pure vitrue of having more options Loganwing wins. Who cares if Belial has a sweet command squad when they just got rocked by cheap devs? Or even if your Terminator squad got beat down by a pack of TWC? Who you can't ID!

Our terminators are also slightly more expensive and we don't get as much bang for the buck. AND, loganwing can run Power Armored "vets" as troops along with termnators, and even mix them!

Sir_Turalyon
20-11-2009, 14:36
This is totally incorrect and an invalid point.
DW have a max of 5 men per squad so can take a maximum of 45 terminators 3 elite and 6 troop...
"logan wing" can take up to 10 terminators per squad... 6 troop squads=60 terminators.


You forgot 3 Lone Wolves ;). But most of these are bunched together in six squads. Ability to take more terminators per squads is Pupwing advantage. Ability to take more terminators squads is Deathwing advantage; I was unprecise in previous post.

Deus Mechanicus
20-11-2009, 14:45
I personally play Deathwing but i must say i have strayed a little and included a 3 man Ravenwing bike squad.

Assuming you get first turn it's always nice to turbo boost 24" and end up just outside 12" from the enemy in your scout boost and then drop a bunch of terminators first turn to stir up some trouble.

Hypaspist
20-11-2009, 15:44
I personally play Deathwing but i must say i have strayed a little and included a 3 man Ravenwing bike squad.

Assuming you get first turn it's always nice to turbo boost 24" and end up just outside 12" from the enemy in your scout boost and then drop a bunch of terminators first turn to stir up some trouble.

you mean scout 12" right (as per the codex states)

Deus Mechanicus
21-11-2009, 00:02
you mean scout 12" right (as per the codex states)

No, I mean scout 24" (as per the 5th edition FAQ states)


Q. Can bikes Turbo Boost during their Scout
move?
A. Yes they now can, but remember that they
have to remain more than 12” away from the
enemy as they move.

Hypaspist
21-11-2009, 01:17
*sigh* read page 27 of your Dark Angel Codex.
Codex > Rulebook. You may only scout 12" becuase your codex Explicitly states it, and this has not been FAQ'd.

Deus Mechanicus
21-11-2009, 01:42
*sigh* read page 27 of your Dark Angel Codex.
Codex > Rulebook. You may only scout 12" becuase your codex Explicitly states it, and this has not been FAQ'd.

FAQ > Codex > Rulebook.

You may scout 24" because the FAQ Explicitly states it, and this is exactly the question that the FAQ adresses.

Hypaspist
21-11-2009, 01:47
FAQ > Codex > Rulebook.

You may scout 24" because the FAQ Explicitly states it, and this is exactly the question that the FAQ adresses.

The FAQ you refer to is for the main rulebook, it would be better to say
Rulebook FAQ > Rulebook.
Codex FAQ > Codex
Codex > Rulebook

The Dark Angel FAQ makes no mention of removing the restriction of turbo boosting in the scout phase, therefore you may not.

Arakanis
21-11-2009, 01:48
...it would be better to say
Rulebook FAQ > Rulebook.
Codex FAQ > Codex
Codex > Rulebook


Objection! Your honor, that is pure conjecture. :D

Deus Mechanicus
21-11-2009, 01:55
Haha alright then, i'll keep turboboosting my Ravenwing Bikers 24" untill someone complains. So far no one has, and no it's not because they don't know the DA codex says 12" but they agree with the FAQ.

All the locals in the club, all gaming days i have attended to and multiple tournaments. None.

So i'll meet you half way, everyone wins :)

Arakanis
21-11-2009, 01:59
So i'll meet you half way, everyone wins :)

Half way across the board that is! :p

Hypaspist
21-11-2009, 02:00
in truth, it's just one of those things that you should sort out before you play, but it *would* fall into the same permissive,
do you mind if I scout turbo boost
do you mind If I use the updated wargear from the space marine codex.
in terms of RAW it's 12" but you are free to change it which ever way you like and tournament organiser are still free do change things as they like.

Back OT, I still think Deathwing make a better 1500 army. (anything much above that, mind, and they start losing out badly)

Netfreakk
21-11-2009, 18:52
in truth, it's just one of those things that you should sort out before you play, but it *would* fall into the same permissive,
do you mind if I scout turbo boost
do you mind If I use the updated wargear from the space marine codex.
in terms of RAW it's 12" but you are free to change it which ever way you like and tournament organiser are still free do change things as they like.

Back OT, I still think Deathwing make a better 1500 army. (anything much above that, mind, and they start losing out badly)

I have the same exact view, I don't understand concept of using other rules that aren't FAQ'ed. Like updating wargear stats, PotMS, etc...

If anything the DA FAQ states that "the more important rule" wouldn't likely be applied in tournaments etc...

Would I like it if it were so? YES. Turbo-boosting scouting bikes seems not applicable as they would have to put it in our FAQ as well, or that means that we also have newer PotMS, because they updated the Daemonhunter's PotMS and it's a FAQ and we should be able to use it as well.

borginator
21-11-2009, 21:31
the whole codex > rulebook is really a cop out on GW's part. We're too lazy to put out a new codex for this edition so you get the short end of the stick.

mughi3
22-11-2009, 00:25
I have been a dedicated DW player since i got into 40K nearly 10 years hence and even i have to admit that wolfwing is so much better

.logan as a character is incredibly better than belial both in terms of his own battle abilities and what he does for his squads. well worth the points

.they have the updated rules..nuff said

.their base terminator cost is one of the cheapest around

.they can run larger squads

.most importantly-options terminators with combi-weapons again, melta bombs and various other weapons options and squad upgrades

granted you have to watch going to crazy with the toys or it eats up points like a thunder wolf but at least you have the options



DW / RW were specifically made to compliment each other, fluff / rules. Where as those other units were not.
Thats a new creation of the 4th ed codex that breaks all previous fluff. DW never worked in tandem with the RW in that way and RW were a strike force not DW's whore. each has always been a stand alone army up to that point not dependent on the other to get the job done.

Arakanis
22-11-2009, 06:25
.logan as a character is incredibly better than belial both in terms of his own battle abilities and what he does for his squads. well worth the points
Belial is a cheap key. He exists to make Deathwing builds available, and he's much less of a massive point sink than Logan is.



.their base terminator cost is one of the cheapest around
We get Fearless and Deep Strike, they don't.



.they can run larger squads
We can have MORE squads. (Which is better)



.most importantly-options terminators with combi-weapons again, melta bombs and various other weapons options and squad upgrades

They still pay heft prices for that. Aside from the AssCan, our upgrades are either free or dirt cheap. And we can have a command squad with the better version of the banner and the narcethium.




Thats a new creation of the 4th ed codex that breaks all previous fluff. DW never worked in tandem with the RW in that way and RW were a strike force not DW's whore. each has always been a stand alone army up to that point not dependent on the other to get the job done.
Like the Thunderwolf Cavalry and Loganwing? :rolleyes: Ravenwing has always been the recon force for the Dark Angels, and they've always hunted down the fallen. Deathwing has always been the heavy hitters. The Unforgiven work together. The RW are not the DW's whores. They work in tandem.

Ranwulf
22-11-2009, 09:53
Logan Grimnar for the win!!! Totally!!! I mean he's awesome in Hand to Hand combat and is an awesome leader!!!

Arakanis
22-11-2009, 10:05
Logan Grimnar for the win!!! Totally!!! I mean he's awesome in Hand to Hand combat and is an awesome leader!!!

i think spaec wofl is a pretty cool guy, eh fights hand to hand combat and doesnt afraid of anything.

Urath
22-11-2009, 14:03
i think spaec wofl is a pretty cool guy, eh fights hand to hand combat and doesnt afraid of anything.

spaec wofl? nah, itz got 2 be emo marine sorry i mene dark angel :D

blameless
22-11-2009, 22:22
Belial is a cheap key. He exists to make Deathwing builds available, and he's much less of a massive point sink than Logan is.

hahaha! :D This is totally outweighed even at 1500 which is the point of this thread. remember 33pts per terminator?



We get Fearless and Deep Strike, they don't.

erm... yes they do get deep strike :eyebrows: im sure you meant "teleport" but drop pods are safer for an expensive squad.
Fearless is awesome against shooting yes but can be very unhelpful in CC as we know.


We can have MORE squads. (Which is better)

Describe how this is better??? I honestly have no idea how having nine five man squads is an advantage when compared to 6 mixed armour squads of Logan wing at 1500 pts?
In bigger games? yes, this MAY be better in specific circumstances but MAY be worse. No advantage overall IMO.


They still pay heft prices for that. Aside from the AssCan, our upgrades are either free or dirt cheap. And we can have a command squad with the better version of the banner and the narcethium.

5pts hefty? wow I would love to see what you call cheap!
and aside from the heavy weapons most of the wolves upgrades are 5-10pts...


All that aside lets look at Logans "massive points sink" in specific comparison to a Belial command squad with banner and apothocary.

Belial=130
Logan=275
145 point discrepancy...
Banner=25
Apothocary=30

Now Logan once per game grants +1 attack to all friendly models within 18" that's generally going to be a lot more than just the 5 per turn that the banner is limited to bearing in mind that you would call on it in any given games no more than 2-3 times.

As for the apothocary=ignore 1 failed save per turn.
not able to be used in CC or against instant death.

Logan is eternal warrior so flicking a las cannon shot his way is a good option with a 4+ save and only 1 wound being taken off. Also throwing in a PA wolf guard in the squad is an 18pt spare wound...
that leaves a points discrepancy of 90 points.

now lets look at his other considerable advantages...

-WS6
-counter attack
-stubborn
-acute sences
-each turn choose from- fearless, preferred enemy or tank hunters...

Pretty dern helpful for 90 points :D
-while sloggin it those two cycones in your squad just turned into grunty 2 shot las cannons plus all your storm bolters can glance AV11 andpenetrate AV10
-get into CC and reroll all failed misses.
-about to get shot up? fearless is your ticket

Not to mention his personal weapons, glorious amount of attacks on the charge all hitting on 3's rerolling :D and general CC kick buttness!
-all psycic attacks used on the unit are ignored on a 5+
-All units in 6" reroll failed moral at LD9

on top of all this the base terminator is 33pts which in my first post I pointed out that even with his points being much higher and a strong mix of weapons in each squad this still enables you at 1500 pts to field the same number of terminator bodies as deathwing (but with far superior backup options availible):D

Look don't get me wrong I do think that deathwing are cooler as an all terminator army but I cant see how people can think that deathwing has an edge on the table top :confused:

Netfreakk
22-11-2009, 22:40
I keep getting confused on what you want blameless. Are we comparing Wolfwing what in my mind is an all TDA army or are we comparing WG army vs Deathwing?

Arakanis
22-11-2009, 23:37
hahaha! :D This is totally outweighed even at 1500 which is the point of this thread. remember 33pts per terminator? They're really not cheaper. They have the same stats, lack Fearless and have to pay for weapon swaps. They have to pay for a Drop Pod so they can Deep Strike (Thanks for the easy kill point, by the way) With the Drop Pod they cost 200 for a five man squad with no upgrades, and that completely mitigates any numbers advantage. Deathwing then gets Fearless for 3 points per model more.



erm... yes they do get deep strike :eyebrows: im sure you meant "teleport" but drop pods are safer for an expensive squad.
Fearless is awesome against shooting yes but can be very unhelpful in CC as we know. It turns out, that with five man squads, fearless doesn't hurt that much. You can't lose by more than 4 and still have anyone left. Statistically, you'll make those saves. And no, you don't get deep strike. You have to pay for a Drop Pod. Which increases the over all cost of your Terminators to be useful. And it basically just hands out kill points.




Describe how this is better??? I honestly have no idea how having nine five man squads is an advantage when compared to 6 mixed armour squads of Logan wing at 1500 pts?
In bigger games? yes, this MAY be better in specific circumstances but MAY be worse. No advantage overall IMO. Because I can shoot and assault 9 targets per turn. You may only shoot and assault 6 (If I play my cards right) I can hold/contest up to 9 objectives, you can only do 6. And remember, if you take Drop Pods, you've got at most 30 Terminators when we can take 45, after weapons for WG, we cost the same, or less and we didn't have to doll out 15% over a Land Raider to get the Character to Allow this.




5pts hefty? wow I would love to see what you call cheap!
and aside from the heavy weapons most of the wolves upgrades are 5-10pts... Well, cheap would be free. Since the Deathwing pay nothing for weapon swaps, can take heavy weapons and chainfists for 5-10 pts with the exception of the assault cannon.




Now Logan once per game grants +1 attack to all friendly models within 18" that's generally going to be a lot more than just the 5 per turn that the banner is limited to bearing in mind that you would call on it in any given games no more than 2-3 times. ...no it's not. My command squad has Belial and a Terminator Chaplain and because those upgrades don't replace weapon, it also has 6 pairs of lightning claws. On the charge, that's 31 power weapon attacks that hit on 4s, re-roll misses and then re-roll wounds, and then 6 power weapon attacks that re-roll to hit, all at strength 4. Then the next turn it's still 4 attacks per Deathwing, and 5 per IC. Remember that assaults happen in your phase as well as mine, so it's gonna be more like 4-5 times.



As for the apothocary=ignore 1 failed save per turn.
not able to be used in CC or against instant death.
It can be used in close combat actually. The apothecary just can't be engaged. (He can be locked, however)
Of course, in most CCs you want his attacks anyways, but I wanted to clear that up for you. Still, it's helpful against ranged attacks while you approach.



Logan is eternal warrior so flicking a las cannon shot his way is a good option with a 4+ save and only 1 wound being taken off. Also throwing in a PA wolf guard in the squad is an 18pt spare wound...
that leaves a points discrepancy of 90 points.
The thing about Eternal warrior, is that it protects you from being laid low by a single attack. I've never needed Belial to have EW, the reason is that I never put him against a PF or a MC. That's not what he's for. He ensures that the DW wins the combat.



now lets look at his other considerable advantages...

-WS6
-counter attack
-stubborn
-acute sences
-each turn choose from- fearless, preferred enemy or tank hunters...

Pretty dern helpful for 90 points :D
-while sloggin it those two cycones in your squad just turned into grunty 2 shot las cannons plus all your storm bolters can glance AV11 andpenetrate AV10
-get into CC and reroll all failed misses.
-about to get shot up? fearless is your ticket
Aside from WS6, and Counter Attack, and Tankhunters, Deathwing can have all those advantages ALL the time rather than just one turn.



Not to mention his personal weapons, glorious amount of attacks on the charge all hitting on 3's rerolling :D and general CC kick buttness!
-all psycic attacks used on the unit are ignored on a 5+
-All units in 6" reroll failed moral at LD9
Unlimited Range Psychic Hood, Fearless, Litanies of Hate. Most of this can be covered and lent to the entire squad or the entire army.



on top of all this the base terminator is 33pts which in my first post I pointed out that even with his points being much higher and a strong mix of weapons in each squad this still enables you at 1500 pts to field the same number of terminator bodies as deathwing (but with far superior backup options availible):D
Yes, well, that's great. But when you pay for all the options, the price comes way up. Deathwing Termies are about 43 each. 10 points higher for Fearless, Deep Striking, Deathwing Assault, and free weapon swaps. I'm cool with that.



Look don't get me wrong I do think that deathwing are cooler as an all terminator army but I cant see how people can think that deathwing has an edge on the table top :confused:
I really think all this Wolf hype will die down in a few months when people notice that it's really not all that.

starlight
23-11-2009, 01:28
The FAQ you refer to is for the main rulebook, it would be better to say
Rulebook FAQ > Rulebook.
Codex FAQ > Codex
Codex > Rulebook

The Dark Angel FAQ makes no mention of removing the restriction of turbo boosting in the scout phase, therefore you may not.

Incorrect.

Codex does not trump Rulebook! :rolleyes:

Specific > General

*Usually* the rulebook has the general rules and the codex has the specific ones, but not always.

Arakanis
23-11-2009, 01:38
Incorrect.

Codex does not trump Rulebook! :rolleyes:

Specific > General

*Usually* the rulebook has the general rules and the codex has the specific ones, but not always.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I could have sworn that the rulebook specifically states that in cases of conflict with the rulebook the codex wins out. Isn't there a sidebar about that?

blameless
23-11-2009, 02:07
They're really not cheaper. They have the same stats, lack Fearless and have to pay for weapon swaps. They have to pay for a Drop Pod so they can Deep Strike (Thanks for the easy kill point, by the way) With the Drop Pod they cost 200 for a five man squad with no upgrades, and that completely mitigates any numbers advantage. Deathwing then gets Fearless for 3 points per model more.

Yes they lack fearless but rerolling stubborn LD9 is better. albeit for only a couple of squads but taking CC into account its better overall IMO.

Also you deep strike all your squads? :confused: not smart... 1 drop pod maybe 3 is the way but that's not all your army. Again tactical flexibility is on the side of Logan Wing here... more options and better ones at that.


It turns out, that with five man squads, fearless doesn't hurt that much. You can't lose by more than 4 and still have anyone left. Statistically, you'll make those saves. And no, you don't get deep strike. You have to pay for a Drop Pod. Which increases the over all cost of your Terminators to be useful. And it basically just hands out kill points.

Yes we do get to deep strike. not teleport. I cleared this up in my previous post... honestly :eyebrows:
An AV12 kill point that can contest objectives and shoot missiles? ill take that.
Again tactical flexibility.


Because I can shoot and assault 9 targets per turn. You may only shoot and assault 6 (If I play my cards right) I can hold/contest up to 9 objectives, you can only do 6. And remember, if you take Drop Pods, you've got at most 30 Terminators when we can take 45, after weapons for WG, we cost the same, or less and we didn't have to doll out 15% over a Land Raider to get the Character to Allow this.

Like I said there are times when this is an advantage and times when being a small squad is a liability.
Cost of Logan is covered even at 1500 pts as I have previously pointed out.


Well, cheap would be free. Since the Deathwing pay nothing for weapon swaps, can take heavy weapons and chainfists for 5-10 pts with the exception of the assault cannon.

Cheap is not free... its cheap :eyebrows: 5pts is cheap... a WG with chain fist is same price as his DW counterpart but has counter attack instead of fearless.


My command squad has Belial and a Terminator Chaplain and because those upgrades don't replace weapon, it also has 6 pairs of lightning claws. On the charge, that's 31 power weapon attacks that hit on 4s, re-roll misses and then re-roll wounds, and then 6 power weapon attacks that re-roll to hit, all at strength 4. Then the next turn it's still 4 attacks per Deathwing, and 5 per IC. Remember that assaults happen in your phase as well as mine, so it's gonna be more like 4-5 times.

Shall I throw in a Wolf priest in my squad as well to compare??? Hmmm more attacks... more hits on 3's rerolling ALL THE TIME! I know how assault works and if you take your averages from an all DW army game after game we both know that with unity sizes of 5 you use your banners +1 attacks less than you would like to have us believe :p


It can be used in close combat actually. The apothecary just can't be engaged. (He can be locked, however)
Of course, in most CCs you want his attacks anyways, but I wanted to clear that up for you. Still, it's helpful against ranged attacks while you approach.

Good point. yes its good and better than throwing wounds at Logan by all means.


The thing about Eternal warrior, is that it protects you from being laid low by a single attack. I've never needed Belial to have EW, the reason is that I never put him against a PF or a MC. That's not what he's for. He ensures that the DW wins the combat.

Thats an argument to why Logan is so good. he does both.


Aside from WS6, and Counter Attack, and Tankhunters, Deathwing can have all those advantages ALL the time rather than just one turn.

Acute senses, rerolling hits in all CC all the time and stubborn rerolling. what advantages do you have all the time except fearless? none. Your trying to make it sound like fearless is multi talented.


Yes, well, that's great. But when you pay for all the options, the price comes way up. Deathwing Termies are about 43 each. 10 points higher for Fearless, Deep Striking, Deathwing Assault, and free weapon swaps. I'm cool with that.

price goes way up??? iv been over and over this. lets start with your free weapon swaps... for free you get the following...
-rubbish cyclones
-rubbish storm shields
-worse lightning claws
-same assault cannon
-chain fist???
ohhhh the options are endless

So as I have said with WG you can mix and match all you want to create specific builds which not only aid you in your desired task but also saves lives with would allocation. DW have no 3++ available for your std squads and nor combi weapons/melta bombs (all for the ridiculous price of 5pts :D)


I really think all this Wolf hype will die down in a few months when people notice that it's really not all that.

They are not all that... In fact I even think at 1500 Logan wing is far from competitive. But its better that DW as the poll shows ;)

Arakanis
23-11-2009, 02:36
Yes they lack fearless but rerolling stubborn LD9 is better. albeit for only a couple of squads but taking CC into account its better overall IMO.
...uh no it's not. You can fall back and be swept or run off the board. That will never happen to Deathwing. And I already explained how basically, No Retreat will never matter to a 5 man terminators squad.



Also you deep strike all your squads? :confused: not smart... 1 drop pod maybe 3 is the way but that's not all your army. Again tactical flexibility is on the side of Logan Wing here... more options and better ones at that. Have you ever played against Doublewing? Deepstriking works out really, really well.




Yes we do get to deep strike. not teleport. I cleared this up in my previous post... honestly :eyebrows:
An AV12 kill point that can contest objectives and shoot missiles? ill take that.
Again tactical flexibility.
No. You do NOT get deep strike. You may take a TRANSPORT that has deep strike. You must pay extra for this.
And really, deep striking that costs more, and gives away killpoints equals "Tactical Flexibility"? I mean, sure you don't HAVE to deep strike, and you can just not take the pod for a slightly cheaper squad... but I mean, do you really want to do that? You're most a CC army anyways, giving the enemy time to shoot at you as you approach probably isn't a good plan.



Like I said there are times when this is an advantage and times when being a small squad is a liability.
Cost of Logan is covered even at 1500 pts as I have previously pointed out. Well, really, a small squad isn't that much of a Liability for Deathwing. We don't have to take shooting causality checks, and properly supported we can actually have as much fighting power in CC as a ten man squad (Except that you have to allocate your attacks between us)



Cheap is not free... its cheap :eyebrows: 5pts is cheap... a WG with chain fist is same price as his DW counterpart but has counter attack instead of fearless. You said "If you think 5-10 points is hefty, I would like to know what you consider cheap" Considering that we pay 5-10 points for chainsfists, heavyflamers, and cyclones (and a little more for AssCans) and get everything else on standard squads for free.... I consider 0 to be cheaper than 5.



Shall I throw in a Wolf priest in my squad as well to compare??? Hmmm more attacks... more hits on 3's rerolling ALL THE TIME! I know how assault works and if you take your averages from an all DW army game after game we both know that with unity sizes of 5 you use your banners +1 attacks less than you would like to have us believe :p... What? I mean, are you trying to tell me that you know more about my army than I do? That's uh... kind of laughable really. Belial + TDA Chappy and Command Squad get those numbers on the charge and -1 per after that for every round. Sure we can't re-roll EVERY attack, but you only get +1 attack for one turn. We get it EVERY turn.



Thats an argument to why Logan is so good. he does both.
He's also almost twice the points.



Acute senses, rerolling hits in all CC all the time and stubborn rerolling. what advantages do you have all the time except fearless? none. Your trying to make it sound like fearless is multi talented. Acute Senses are not that great. I mean, really. I've never had nightfighting issues with DW. I let LRs and Dreads shoot first, they can usually see the target, and they spotlight it so I don't even need to worry about rolling when it comes to the regular squads. Stubborn re-rolling is still worse that Fearless. Sorry. You can still fail and get swept or fall off the board. Fearless prevents that. +1 attack in the command squad all the time offsets not having Litanies of Hate for every round.




So as I have said with WG you can mix and match all you want to create specific builds which not only aid you in your desired task but also saves lives with would allocation. DW have no 3++ available for your std squads and nor combi weapons/melta bombs (all for the ridiculous price of 5pts :D) Well, 3++ would be nice, but 4++ works fine for us. Combi-weapons would be great too, but Storm bolters, Assault Cannons and Heavy Flamers seem to do the trick.




They are not all that... In fact I even think at 1500 Logan wing is far from competitive. But its better that DW as the poll shows ;)
Actually, DW has been known to take tournaments when played well, I'm sure Logan wing could too, but I really don't think that Wolf wing is really markedly better than Deathwing. I think you're just a over zealous wolf fanboi who is excited about a new codex and wants to show his rivals up.

Understandable, but you're not actually right.

mughi3
23-11-2009, 04:11
Belial is a cheap key. He exists to make Deathwing builds available, and he's much less of a massive point sink than Logan is.


We get Fearless and Deep Strike, they don't.


We can have MORE squads. (Which is better)


They still pay heft prices for that. Aside from the AssCan, our upgrades are either free or dirt cheap. And we can have a command squad with the better version of the banner and the narcethium.



Like the Thunderwolf Cavalry and Loganwing? :rolleyes: Ravenwing has always been the recon force for the Dark Angels, and they've always hunted down the fallen. Deathwing has always been the heavy hitters. The Unforgiven work together. The RW are not the DW's whores. They work in tandem.

Well as it so happens i tested out the wolfwing list yesterday against a tourney level crimson fist list at 2K and it completely owned anything my DW could have done against the same said list. i had a few less models but what i did have really changed the performance of the list.

Lets understand something in 5th edition
FEARLESS IS BAD TO HAVE!

The way the CC system works now an unmodifies LD 10 check for being stubborn is far better than taking extra wounds on a small terminator squad.

Even if you run on the rare bad roll. ATSNKF means you auto rally outside 6" and if they choose to chase you and catch you, you just turn and fight and count as fearless for that turn.


All terminator suits can always deepstrike so DW gets nothing there, unless your talking about the optional DWA which is rarely useful.

Having more squads of 5(up to 9 for DW) is equal to having 6 squads of 10 because you end up with the same rough number of terminators for the points limit. the difference comes in the form of less KPs for the wolves and more options and durability, especially in CC, for larger squads.

Yes the goodies can be expoensive so you have to watch spending extra points there, but thats nothing new for any army build.

The banner is a toss up. sure DW can use it every turn for that one squad and logan can only use his once, but the kicker is that it does not effect just his unit, it effects every wolf in 18" possibly giving his entire force +1 attack for 1 turn.

AS for RWs role, go read your old codex.
Only the master of the ravenwing was tasked with surviving to report back what he found. RW itself wwas a stand alone fast attack strike force not a scout force. thats why the old list could pack so much firepower on fast units.

DW was always the stand alone force that hunted the fallen when they were not helping out the chapter somewhere. finding the fallen was their job, not RWs.

Arakanis
23-11-2009, 04:36
Well as it so happens i tested out the wolfwing list yesterday against a tourney level crimson fist list at 2K and it completely owned anything my DW could have done against the same said list. i had a few less models but what i did have really changed the performance of the list. That's wonderful. I'm glad we have such useful anecdotes to support this idea.



Lets understand something in 5th edition
FEARLESS IS BAD TO HAVE!
No it isn't. As I've already demonstrated, Fearless is only bad when you have a LARGE number of Fearless models. It sucks for Orks and Tyranids, it's awesome for Deathwing. I'll explain again in case you missed it the first time.
Okay, so Deathwing squad, 5 guys, gets into CC, loses 4 models Deals no wounds. That is the worst situation that you could have where No Retreat wounds could still come into play. This means that you take 4 armour saves on the last guy. Statistically he will pass all of them. Thus, No Retreat... does... not... matter. Fearless is GOOD for small squads, because it means that losing one or two guys to shooting does not cause them to test morale. Also I can ignore pinning, and leadership reducing abilities like Psychic Choir, Weaken Resolve, Soulless, etc.



The way the CC system works now an unmodifies LD 10 check for being stubborn is far better than taking extra wounds on a small terminator squad.Unless you fail that test and get chased off the board. Which can happen, I've had it done to me, I've done it to other Marine players.



Even if you run on the rare bad roll. ATSNKF means you auto rally outside 6" and if they choose to chase you and catch you, you just turn and fight and count as fearless for that turn. You will be chased if you don't roll better than 6" on your fall back roll. Count on it. If you get Swept, you're gonna start making No Retreat saves, which really DO hurt larger squads, sense you can lose by more.



All terminator suits can always deepstrike so DW gets nothing there, unless your talking about the optional DWA which is rarely useful. Yeah, except that Space Wolves MAY NOT TELEPORT. Which means that they DO NOT get Deep Strike with their Terminators and MUST purchase a Drop Pod.



Having more squads of 5(up to 9 for DW) is equal to having 6 squads of 10 because you end up with the same rough number of terminators for the points limit. the difference comes in the form of less KPs for the wolves and more options and durability, especially in CC, for larger squads. Again, more squads is only a disadvantage in KP, and even then, not by a whole lot since you can be more precise with your attacks.



Yes the goodies can be expoensive so you have to watch spending extra points there, but thats nothing new for any army build. It's still an advantage that the DW have. Hello, entire point?



The banner is a toss up. sure DW can use it every turn for that one squad and logan can only use his once, but the kicker is that it does not effect just his unit, it effects every wolf in 18" possibly giving his entire force +1 attack for 1 turn. Well, with careful usage of Deathwing Assault, Land Raiders or flanking Ravenwing, Deathwing isn't about to engage the entire Wolf force.



AS for RWs role, go read your old codex.
Only the master of the ravenwing was tasked with surviving to report back what he found. RW itself wwas a stand alone fast attack strike force not a scout force. thats why the old list could pack so much firepower on fast units. As for the current role, read the current codex. The old fluff is obsolete. Sorry. Anyways, if the Master was tasked with finding the Fallen, did he just roam around the galaxy alone, Kung Fu style? Come on.



DW was always the stand alone force that hunted the fallen when they were not helping out the chapter somewhere. finding the fallen was their job, not RWs.
Not anymore.

blameless
23-11-2009, 06:44
Again we will just let the poll speak :D

mughi3
23-11-2009, 08:07
Again we will just let the poll speak
play testing does an even better job.


Arakanis
i don't know how long you have been doing DW, but for me it has been a long time and a very active time as well.
i still play every saturday at my LGS and i am there for 14+ hours on average(granted it isn't all 40K all the time) and i used to play fridays and saturdays before i got married.


In all those years i have done just about every dedicated pure DW list-
all infantry, infantry with dread support, fully meechanised with land raider, mechanised with raiders and dreads etc.... in the current environment with the codex outdated rules and restrictions for the DW the wolf list is far superior nothing you said changes that. This isn't about loyalty to a chapter this is about staight up performance, gear, rules and options


A few finer points-

Statistically he will pass all of them.
Leave mathhammer at the door because it doesn't work in the real game


Also I can ignore pinning, and leadership reducing abilities like Psychic Choir, Weaken Resolve, Soulless, etc.
sure they have to take a pinning check, but just like SOB with a book of st lucius, stubborn units are completely un-affected by those other LD reducing abilities so it doesn't heolp your case much.


Unless you fail that test and get chased off the board. Which can happen, I've had it done to me, I've done it to other Marine players.

sure it can, is it very likely to happen often? no.


Yeah, except that Space Wolves MAY NOT TELEPORT. Which means that they DO NOT get Deep Strike with their Terminators and MUST purchase a Drop Pod.

You may want to go back and read the SW terminator armor entry again, unless they FAQ'd recently the RAW says they PREFER not to teleport into combat. not "they may not teleport"

so you can by the RAW still teleport into combat as terminator suits have the ability, although it does not fit SW fluff.
Not that it matters much since pods are a much safer way to DS anyway especially with DPA.


Again, more squads is only a disadvantage in KP, and even then, not by a whole lot since you can be more precise with your attacks.

Actually not just in KPs but also in performance. tactically if you are an assualt based unit you want large or larger numbers than the force your assaulting if you intend to win the combat, especially against other armies dedicated CC units.



It's still an advantage that the DW have. Hello, entire point?

what advantage?
they get standard terminator CC weapons for free above a power weapon and storm bolter?
this is more than balanced out by cheaper terminators, new rules for the wargear and the options as well as variable squad size.


Well, with careful usage of Deathwing Assault, Land Raiders or flanking Ravenwing, Deathwing isn't about to engage the entire Wolf force.

No plan survives contact with the enemy. DW vetran here, i know how to work a small elite army of terminators and wolf wing works the same way. this offers you no real advantage or point of difference.

Hypaspist
23-11-2009, 08:12
Incorrect.

Codex does not trump Rulebook! :rolleyes:

Specific > General

*Usually* the rulebook has the general rules and the codex has the specific ones, but not always.

My apologies Starlight, it should have perhaps been worded more clearly.

If I had prefaced it with, "In relation to your own army" then it would have been correct :)

Arakanis
23-11-2009, 09:27
play testing does an even better job.
Agreed.



Arakanis
i don't know how long you have been doing DW,
Long enough to know that played well they're still quite competitive and not to be underestimated.




Leave mathhammer at the door because it doesn't work in the real game
Yeah, um, physics and probability says you're wrong. If you want to argue with reality, that's fine and dandy, but don't tout it as strategy.



sure they have to take a pinning check, but just like SOB with a book of st lucius, stubborn units are completely un-affected by those other LD reducing abilities so it doesn't heolp your case much. read the entry for stubborn again. They are immune to negative leadership modifiers for Morale checks. Not pinning checks and not abilities that change the leadership value of the model like Psychic Choir or Soulless, or make you test on 3D6 like Weaken resolve.



sure it can, is it very likely to happen often? no.
In small elite armies it can happen suprisingly often. I ran two squads of Chaos Terminators off a table a couple times, they even had an Icon, and Abaddon was in one of them. I wouldn't rely on it, but it's still worse than Fearless.



You may want to go back and read the SW terminator armor entry again, unless they FAQ'd recently the RAW says they PREFER not to teleport into combat. not "they may not teleport"

so you can by the RAW still teleport into combat as terminator suits have the ability, although it does not fit SW fluff.
Not that it matters much since pods are a much safer way to DS anyway especially with DPA. I'll be honest, I don't have a SW codex in front of me, however, terminators suits have only the abilities spelled out in their relevant codices, so unless the Space Wolf Codex explicitly says that Space Wolf Terminators can deep strike they cannot. If it says they can, I apologize, I had heard that they did not.




Actually not just in KPs but also in performance. tactically if you are an assualt based unit you want large or larger numbers than the force your assaulting if you intend to win the combat, especially against other armies dedicated CC units. Ask anyone. More squads is better, even if they are smaller as they can be used in tandem for assaults and be just as effective as a larger squad. Remember, they're Fearless, so 25% shooting casualties are a non-issue.





what advantage?
they get standard terminator CC weapons for free above a power weapon and storm bolter?
this is more than balanced out by cheaper terminators, new rules for the wargear and the options as well as variable squad size. Yeah, actually. How much does a WG pay for a Wolfclaw? 5 points? 10? how about a thunder hammer? Or a Storm shield? If that adds up to over 43 points per model, they're more expensive than the Deathwing equivalent. Sure the Deathwing SSs and LCs are slightly worse, but you still have Fearless and Deep Strike on them at almost the same point cost! (If not slightly cheaper)



No plan survives contact with the enemy. DW vetran here, i know how to work a small elite army of terminators and wolf wing works the same way. this offers you no real advantage or point of difference.I play DW and Eldar, I know how small elite armies work. And you're right, no plan survives contact, but that works both ways. If you're quick on the draw and you know how to use your army, you can seize the upper hand and squeeze a win out. You're a vet, you should know this.

Bartali
23-11-2009, 11:25
The key thing for me is the difference in points between Logan and Belial.

Deathwing is more flexible, especially at lower points. For the same points as Logan I can take Belial + Dreadnought, or Chappy or Libby.

Logan may be great in cc, but Belial with an Interrogater Chaplian + Banner works out pretty good too

mughi3
23-11-2009, 11:38
read the entry for stubborn again. They are immune to negative leadership modifiers for Morale checks. Not pinning checks and not abilities that change the leadership value of the model like Psychic Choir or Soulless, or make you test on 3D6 like Weaken resolve.

i disagree with your understanding of the rule. having read the entire entry :
"stubborn units always ignore any negative leadership modifiers"
the LD stat is what is used for morale checks as such, nothing modifies thier LD value, not pinning, not the choir and not souless since all those reduce ld value.


Yeah, um, physics and probability says you're wrong. If you want to argue with reality, that's fine and dandy, but don't tout it as strategy.

then your "reality" needs to have a word with my cyclone launcher that missed 12 out of 14 shots in a 7 turn game yesterday when they hit on 3+.

:p


I have over the years done my share of tau, nids, sisters, and marine armies but DW was always my first love. it has never been truly competative. back in 02' i went 3/1/1 W/D/L at a GT with infantry heavy DW(31 termies and 2 dreads at 1,850)the closest i think we got was in early 4th ed with the 3.5 mini-dex and the FAQ. we got to keep all our specific special rules and get all the updates. this made us effectively equal in terms of basic rules and gear.

Sadly the newest DA dex (and thus DW build) was a test for 5th ed space marines and the changes in design direction and game rules, while not totally neutering DW made even less competative in a tournament setting. we have overcosted units with less effective rules designed for 4th ed. the 5th ed FAQ that came out would have been funny if it weren't serious.

If your playing among friends, at a local venue and such they can be alot of fun. yes they can even win some given the right setting and opponent even in tournaments, but that is much harder to do now than any time since the original 3.0 dex was released.

The big issue here is that the SWs have effectively stolen the DWs thunder. no other army in the game other than DW has ever had the option to take terminators as troops.

SW do the DW list with more options and thats the key thing. your looking at a list thats able to take 2 heavies in each squad with better rules and still come in for a hundred points less than a comparable number of DW terminators. sure they all only sport power weapons and storm bolters instead of fists, but that means they will go first with power weapons against a DW squad and thats never good.


heres some food for thought-
at 2,000 points maxing out the number of troops by comparison-

With no upgrades-X7 5 man DW terminator squads (35 termies) with 1 assault cannon per squad and belial leave you 155 points to spend on upgrades or support units.

SW can do X4 10 man squads with 2 assault cannons per(40 termies) with logan
and still have 195 points left over for support units and/or upgrades.

so in the end SW get-
.a better HQ
.more teminators
.more heavy weapons
.new rules
.more points to play with in the end

i stand by my assesment that SW make a far better DW army than DW, as much as i love my angels.

Jaxell
23-11-2009, 13:16
Two things:

1 - Wolfwing terminators can't teleport. The fluff may just say they don't like to, but push come to shove, they lack the actual teleport rule in their entry.




I mean, sure you don't HAVE to deep strike, and you can just not take the pod for a slightly cheaper squad... but I mean, do you really want to do that? You're most a CC army anyways, giving the enemy time to shoot at you as you approach probably isn't a good plan.

2 - Wolfwing is not a cc army.

Lets be clear on this. Wolfwing is a Shooty army. An effective wolfwing squad is outfitted with one expensive heavy weapon, one anti-armour chainfist and one stormshield to block ap2 weapons. And a wolfclaw, just for fun. This keeps your termies dirt cheap, survivable at range and survivable in cc while being able to put out copious amounts of mobile firepower. The strength of a basic wolfwing army lies in being a incredibly flexible and customisable shooty force that despite their shooting can hold themselves well in melee.

gwarsh41
23-11-2009, 15:24
Wolves could always bring Logan, Njal, and two more Rune priests in TDA for HQs.

LonelyPath
23-11-2009, 17:04
They could take all of those HQ units, but then that's about half of your points total gone, lol.

I'm gearing up a DW list for my local club tomorrow night and a guy there has been collecting Wolf Wing himself, so we may get a battle at some point to have some fun.

blameless
24-11-2009, 01:37
They could take all of those HQ units, but then that's about half of your points total gone, lol.

I'm gearing up a DW list for my local club tomorrow night and a guy there has been collecting Wolf Wing himself, so we may get a battle at some point to have some fun.

Let us know your musings after the game :) that would be cool to hear.

mughi3
24-11-2009, 13:28
They could take all of those HQ units, but then that's about half of your points total gone, lol.

I'm gearing up a DW list for my local club tomorrow night and a guy there has been collecting Wolf Wing himself, so we may get a battle at some point to have some fun.

True there, i used my exhisting minis i was playing as a counts as deathwing with updated rules/points cost with a few minor tweeks ( i lost a gran total of 2 models in the final count-lost an inquisitor, assassin, 2 tech marines but gained 3 drop pods and alternate config on my venerable dreads.) to turn it into wolfwing.

i only ran logan(obviously) and njal, but i did give one squad the arjac upgrade, seemed fitting since he is logans champion, i figure he would be hanging with the great wolf in battle.


2 - Wolfwing is not a cc army.

Lets be clear on this. Wolfwing is a Shooty army. An effective wolfwing squad is outfitted with one expensive heavy weapon, one anti-armour chainfist and one stormshield to block ap2 weapons. And a wolfclaw, just for fun. This keeps your termies dirt cheap, survivable at range and survivable in cc while being able to put out copious amounts of mobile firepower. The strength of a basic wolfwing army lies in being a incredibly flexible and customisable shooty force that despite their shooting can hold themselves well in melee.
Quite true there. i went with cyclones to give them some added range and it is really nice coupled with logan giving the unit he is with tank hunter whenever they need it, but for backup every wolf that wasn't a character was toting a bolter/combi-melta and most had frost blades. so they did do shooting very well and stood up in CC well to. granted this gives me a smaller army with 22 models but it is comparable to the size of the deathiwng list was running before and the performance difference was clear. the counter assault rule is really fantastic.