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View Full Version : 40k has their casualty priorities backwards.



Arakanis
18-11-2009, 01:18
Think about this. There are factions in 40k who don't care about casualties and there are factions that do. For instance, the Imperium of man doesn't care about losses really. Space Marines can die, guardsmen can die, hell, even inquisitors can be lost and it's not a big deal. Same deal for the Orkz. They do not care if they live or die, as long as they're fighting, right?

On the flip side we have the Eldar and the Tau who have limited numbers and need to preserve lives for moral as well as tactical reasons. With me so far?

Okay, here's the confusing part. The Imperial Guard, the Space Marines, the Inquisition and the Orks all have field medics.

While the Eldar and the Tau do not. :wtf:

In fact, they don't even have FLUFF about them. So we're to believe that if you get shot in the Tau army, you're just left to die? Or if you take shrapnel in the Eldar Craftworld forces they just tell you walk it off?

Am I mistaken or is that just silly?

mightymconeshot
18-11-2009, 01:22
remember most books are written about imperium and their side. i am sure eldar and tau have doctors when even orks do.

havokas
18-11-2009, 01:25
are there still apothacaries in Codex Space Maine.. i dont think so. plus there mainly there to take away valuable geene seed for putting into new marines, and of course imperial guard have medics. there based on "real" armies more so than anything else in the game.

IMHO 40k is a skirmrish game. only apocalypse represents true battles rather than the small detatchment sized fights most 1500 point games represent. each turn probly represents just a few minits of actual action; just like a single player's turn in DND represents 10 seconds or something like that. - probly going to get flamed but its just my opinion that medic tents dont belong in most skirmrishes. and that not everything can be represented on the table in a game like 40k.

Born Again
18-11-2009, 01:32
yeah, there are many things in all armies that are not described, and "medics" doesn't always translate to doctors as we know them. SM Apothecaries are there to take gene-seed and aid in the creation of new marines. Painboyz are hardly there to cure orks like your local GP is. You'll also notice that as far as IG goes, they only appear in the squads with high ranking officers ;) everyone else can get fragged.

Arakanis
18-11-2009, 01:34
are there still apothacaries in Codex Space Maine.. i dont think so. . Yes. There are. Page 55. Lol. They grant "Feel No Pain" to reflect their role as battlefield surgeons.





IMHO 40k is a skirmrish game. only apocalypse represents true battles rather than the small detatchment sized fights most 1500 point games represent. each turn probly represents just a few minits of actual action; just like a single player's turn in DND represents 10 seconds or something like that. - probly going to get flamed but its just my opinion that medic tents dont belong in most skirmrishes. and that not everything can be represented on the table in a game like 40k....I wasn't talking about medic tents. I'm talking about field medics. Trained soldiers who administer first aid and treat battlefield injuries on the spot. You know, like the medics in the Imperial Guard??? Besides, your point is irrelevant. If medics didn't belong in 40k, no army would have them. That's clearly not true.

Grimbad
18-11-2009, 01:37
But Imperial medics don't really show a care for life. Rather than helping the wounded when it's safe, they hang out in the command squad during the battle and keep the important people alive while the others die. This is because the commanders, while they can be replaced just like regular men, are more valuable, but still worthless enough to be put at the front lines. Medics serve to enable this by keeping Mr. Power Fist alive long enough that he can crush some skulls before being killed. Tau would probably keep their medics and other experts out of the fire line, leave danger to the appropriate caste, and wait for the coast is clear to evacuate the wounded.

Master Jeridian
18-11-2009, 01:44
Nobody tell him about Eldar Guardians...

The dying race send out their civilian population with light armour and short-ranged sub machine guns in droves.
I guess there's a reason they're a dying race.

I'm sure the Tau have a form of medic, it's likely they will be based at a field hospital and that Tau casualties are evacuated from the field ASAP via Devilfish.

Eldar I'm guessing will have a form of psyker-medic, i.e. using psychic powers to re-knit wounds, heal skin, etc rather than surgical tools.

Anarnaxe
18-11-2009, 01:46
Mightmconeshot is right. Most fluff in 40K is seen from the Imperial perspective, meaning the Imperium will recognise its own medics and apothecaries (either by a red cross, the Rod of Asclepius (or whatever is in use in 40K), or the white armour of the apothecaries), but might not recognise those of other races.

The medics from other factions might keep themselves away from the battlefield, due to how rare or valuable they are, like Chaos Apothecaries, we know they exist, but they usually stay at the Legion's/Warband's base of operations making new Chaos Marines. Others, you can't help but notice, such as Mad Doks for the Orks, granted, Grotsnik is the only one you see on the table now, but, Doks have always existed. Haemonculi are the closest thing the Dark Eldar have to medics (Vect help you if you need medical help, the Haemonculi would probably torture you as soon as help you). Tyranids? Well Tyranids will just eat each other. And Necrons have Tomb Spiders.

But what would an Eldar or a Tau medic look like? Would the Tau one be a drone, or an actual body? Does the body armour contain basic AI monitoring the user's health? Would an Eldar medic just pick up the Soulstones of their comrades, wearing the same robes as a Seer or body armour like a Guardian or Autrarch? After all, the Eldar know their all dying, is it a case of prolonging the inevitable by helping the wounded?

Your also looking at it through Human eyes. Remember, these are aliens, with a completely different mindset, so whats might be acceptable to us, might in incomprehensible to an alien, and vice versa. Humans, even those as downtrodden in 40K, won't leave a comrade to die in agony and will try to do something. An alien might not.

Or there could just be an Eldar/Tau version of M*A*S*H* away from the battlefield.

.........Heh........Striking Scorpion Hawkeye & Howling Banshee Burns........

Arakanis
18-11-2009, 01:56
Yes, well, the fact that Guardians are so weak is because of a transcription error from 2nd to 3rd.

A Tau medic might be a Drone actually. I could see that, or maybe a specially trained Fire Warrior with a carbine and a med-kit.

As for an Eldar medic, either some sort of Eldar Psyker who uses psychic power to heal or a trained Guardian medic or something.

I understand that they're aliens and stuff, but the idea of self preservation has to factor in some how. It's just good strategy, if you save your wounded you're doing better in the long run. Plus, I mean, there are quotes that claim that they would sacrifice a million humans for a single Eldar life. Clearly they value their own lives somewhat.

dariakus
18-11-2009, 02:03
Yes, well, the fact that Guardians are so weak is because of a transcription error from 2nd to 3rd.

You realize Eldar are up to 4th edition now, right?:wtf:

Arakanis
18-11-2009, 02:11
You realize Eldar are up to 4th edition now, right?:wtf:

Yes I do. You do realize that GW only cares about Space Marines, right? :rolleyes:

Rant
18-11-2009, 02:15
That doesn't mean the error didn't just continue. Back in the day Guardians had 4+ saves, then it got lost somewhere down the line and has never been fixed. The fact that guardians cost so much for low toughness isn't in line with everything else. Look at ork boyz. They cost less than a guardian and are just, better, in the end. Some things are obvious errors, or there was some change that was unjustified. The person working on the 4th ed book saw the third ed book and said 'Well this is what they have' and ran with it most likely. I don't know who wrote the eldar book for 4th but, it's not that well designed a codex when it comes down to it. Point costs are skewed all over the place. Let alone the severe lack of grenades.

Even still, as per the point at hand: I imagine that there are medics, just perhaps not battle field medics or at least not in the same way as others. Remember that in some minds, the more eldar that die, the closer to their triumph they get by the awakening of the god of the dead.

Arakanis
18-11-2009, 02:26
Even still, as per the point at hand: I imagine that there are medics, just perhaps not battle field medics or at least not in the same way as others. Remember that in some minds, the more eldar that die, the closer to their triumph they get by the awakening of the god of the dead.

Right, but that's one of those distant prophetic hopes. Eldrad and maybe a handful of other Farseers have seen glimpses of the stirring entity that is Ynnead. As players were aware that Ynnead is sort of the Eldar destiny, but for the average Eldar you have to take that on faith that a Farseer who isn't even from your craftworld suspects that whispers of a shadow of the future may come to pass in the millenium to come.

I would think that for the warriors on the battlefield, and especially the Guardians, who are not warriors, there would be some provision made for at least easing the passing of a dying Eldar, or recovering the waystones so that their spirits may not be lost to the Great Enemy.

I don't know, maybe I'm just wishing for too much depth for the Eldar.

Gensuke626
18-11-2009, 02:45
Did guardians have a 4+ save? I thought in 2nd ed Guardians had Mesh armor, and so were afforded 5+ saves while Dire Avengers and the like got 4+ saves. And Exarchs had 3+.

Count de Monet
18-11-2009, 03:01
Okay, here's the confusing part. The Imperial Guard, the Space Marines, the Inquisition and the Orks all have field medics.

While the Eldar and the Tau do not. :wtf:

Sure they do. They just leave them in Cities of Death, they don't bring the hospitals along with them in regular fights. ;)

Inquisitor_Tolheim
18-11-2009, 03:04
But Imperial medics don't really show a care for life. Rather than helping the wounded when it's safe, they hang out in the command squad during the battle and keep the important people alive while the others die. This is because the commanders, while they can be replaced just like regular men, are more valuable, but still worthless enough to be put at the front lines. Medics serve to enable this by keeping Mr. Power Fist alive long enough that he can crush some skulls before being killed. Tau would probably keep their medics and other experts out of the fire line, leave danger to the appropriate caste, and wait for the coast is clear to evacuate the wounded.

This, right here, says it perfectly.

mightymconeshot
18-11-2009, 03:16
Mightmconeshot is right.
yes finally i got this. sorry had to be done. as others have said before tau probably are behind the lines and same with eldar.

ImhotepMagi
18-11-2009, 03:17
Guardians in 2nd had mesh armor that gave a 5+ save, which was slightly better than a guardsman's flak armor (6+ save, 5+ vs grenades and missiles with templates).

Vaktathi
18-11-2009, 03:26
5+/6+ whatever. in 2nd ed you'd almost never be taking your armor saves in 2nd ed anyway with saves like that. Functionally, they'd be about the same.

ImhotepMagi
18-11-2009, 04:08
5+/6+ whatever. in 2nd ed you'd almost never be taking your armor saves in 2nd ed anyway with saves like that. Functionally, they'd be about the same.

I was merely stating a fact, since there seemed to be some confusion. Yes, mesh armor would have been useless unless you were fighting S3/4 hand weapons, chainswords, bolt pistols, Harlequin's Kisses, autopistols, laspistols, needle pistols, plasma pistols, stub guns, web pistols, autoguns, boltguns, fleshborers, lasguns, needle sniper rifles, ripper guns, shotguns, stormbolters, heavy stub guns, heavy webbers, multilasers, and scatterlasers. Also, versus frag grenades/missiles but then it was just like flak armor.

Da_Killa
18-11-2009, 04:25
probably the lack of fluff suporting the ideas is that the game is mainly based around the imperium

Bloodknight
18-11-2009, 08:20
Back in the day Guardians had 4+ saves,

Nope, that was Dire Avengers. What made Guardians useful in 2nd edition was the option for a Shuriken Catapult (they had Lasguns normally) which used to be better than a Storm Bolter and got heavily nerfed.

Anarnaxe
18-11-2009, 13:31
yes finally i got this. sorry had to be done.

Doesn't happen a lot for you, I'm guessing. :p

Sir_Turalyon
18-11-2009, 13:45
Patching casualities on battlefield in attempt to immiedietly return them into fray does not strike me like caring for their lives. Imperium and Orks have in-game field medics precisely beause they care more for fight / victory then lives of troops and expect wounded to continue fighting. Field medic caring for trooper that went out of action will stabilize him then send him to hospital behind the lines, rather then stabilize him, pat him on the back and tell to return to fighting. I'm sure Eldar and Tau have field medics, hospitals and they medevac their casualties. It's not represented in game as these have no impact in battle, taking away models already removed as casualities rather then recycling them as playable pieces.

IJW
18-11-2009, 13:46
I thought in 2nd ed Guardians had Mesh armor, and so were afforded 5+ saves while Dire Avengers and the like got 4+ saves.
Correct.


Okay, here's the confusing part. The Imperial Guard, the Space Marines, the Inquisition and the Orks all have field medics.

While the Eldar and the Tau do not. :wtf:
An alternative view would be that the Imperium and the Orks are so specialised that they need specific people to act as medics, while the Eldar and Tau are cross-disciplinarians who ALL have medical knowledge/training. ;)

TrooperTino
18-11-2009, 13:50
In my opinion, and thats nowhere supported by any fluff, Tau have medics all around. I think every firecast member has the skill to do first aid, and perhaps one or two in a squad is/are able to do a bit of field surgery. When their buddy is stabilizied they move on, voxing his position to HQ, and he gets picked up later. Might be theres even a medic drone send to him to keep him alive until he can be evacuated.

Think "Black hawk down"... the imperials hadn't bothered that much about their wounded, but I can imagine such a scene with Tau.


Patching casualities on battlefield in attempt to immiedietly return them into fray does not strike me like caring for their lives. Imperium and Orks have in-game field medics precisely beause they care more for fight / victory then lives of troops and expect wounded to continue fighting. Field medic caring for trooper that went out of action will stabilize him then send him to hospital behind the lines, rather then stabilize him, pat him on the back and tell to return to fighting. I'm sure Eldar and Tau have field medics, hospitals and they medevac their casualties. It's not represented in game as these have no impact in battle, taking away models already removed as casualities rather then recycling them as playable pieces.

thats a very good point

Eidre
18-11-2009, 14:19
Patching casualities on battlefield in attempt to immiedietly return them into fray does not strike me like caring for their lives. Imperium and Orks have in-game field medics precisely beause they care more for fight / victory then lives of troops and expect wounded to continue fighting. Field medic caring for trooper that went out of action will stabilize him then send him to hospital behind the lines, rather then stabilize him, pat him on the back and tell to return to fighting. I'm sure Eldar and Tau have field medics, hospitals and they medevac their casualties. It's not represented in game as these have no impact in battle, taking away models already removed as casualities rather then recycling them as playable pieces.

I notice that the game mechanic has gotten more callous since the previous edition as well. Apothecaries and such used to negate the first failed save the unit took (patching up wounds, stopping bloodloss, etc), which feels more like the Apoth kneeling next to his fallen comrade and applying first aid.

Now, he's just granting FNP to the whole unit...sounds more like he's just administering big doses of pain killers and stimulants to everyone, to get them functional for the next 6 turns of combat, never mind the blood pumping all over the ground...

BigMek
18-11-2009, 14:52
Well the thing is, with the tau and eldar, those high tech suits they wear are actually not meant to protect them but to insure that they die if they get hit...like the Star wars stormtroopers.

Poseidal
18-11-2009, 14:54
Just to clear up:

Guardians (when introduced) had a 5+ save, at the same time Flak Armour was 6+ and Power Armour was a 4+ save.

At the same time, with aspect armour there was:
3 x 3+ save (scorpions, dragons, reapers)
2 x 4+ save (dire avengers, banshees)
1 x 5+ save (swooping hawks)

On the other hand, you could combine Mesh and Power armour with Flak to improve your save by 1, but that incurred a movement penalty.

Oh, and before the Craftworld list, Eldar Pirates generally would have had a 5+ (IIRC) invulnerable save from a refractor field.

SPYDER68
18-11-2009, 14:56
Its possible that Tau and eldar dont need medics..

They have advanced technology beyond the other races.. Which means its hard to tell what all is built into their armor, or ease of use Med abilities that any squad member could use.

Pooky
19-11-2009, 01:24
Think about this. There are factions in 40k who don't care about casualties and there are factions that do. For instance, the Imperium of man doesn't care about losses really. Space Marines can die, guardsmen can die, hell, even inquisitors can be lost and it's not a big deal. Same deal for the Orkz. They do not care if they live or die, as long as they're fighting, right?

On the flip side we have the Eldar and the Tau who have limited numbers and need to preserve lives for moral as well as tactical reasons. With me so far?

Okay, here's the confusing part. The Imperial Guard, the Space Marines, the Inquisition and the Orks all have field medics.

While the Eldar and the Tau do not. :wtf:

In fact, they don't even have FLUFF about them. So we're to believe that if you get shot in the Tau army, you're just left to die? Or if you take shrapnel in the Eldar Craftworld forces they just tell you walk it off?

Am I mistaken or is that just silly?

Did you consider maybe that's why the Eldar are a dying race? Because they DON'T have field medics! ;) You do point out something very interesting though. It did get me thinking...

A few things I want to point out:

It's not 'fine' when Space Marines die. Fluff wise it's a great loss when one of these perfect warriors fall in battle, blah blah blah. So they have field medics to patch them up or to save gene seed.

The IG have field medics probably to make sure the Command Structure is kept alive. Guardsmen die in droves and I don't see medics trying to help them. It's all about keeping the head shed alive while the grunts go off and die.

I also believe the Orks have medics purely because the IG does. From very old and retcon-d fluff I read a story where the Orks basically infect a planet and they copy the tech and culture of the planets population in a very crude and Ork like fashion. This was then expanded to explain why Orks like to use looted Imperial vehicles and other Imperial technology and mannerisms.

Hellebore
19-11-2009, 01:31
An alternative view would be that the Imperium and the Orks are so specialised that they need specific people to act as medics, while the Eldar and Tau are cross-disciplinarians who ALL have medical knowledge/training. ;)

And thus all Tau and eldar squads have the ability to take FnP or ignore a wound every round then, right? :p




It's not 'fine' when Space Marines die. Fluff wise it's a great loss when one of these perfect warriors fall in battle, blah blah blah. So they have field medics to patch them up or to save gene seed.


And yet we hear again and again just how hard and leet marines are that they don't NEED medics, they heal themselves.




I also believe the Orks have medics purely because the IG does. From very old and retcon-d fluff I read a story where the Orks basically infect a planet and they copy the tech and culture of the planets population in a very crude and Ork like fashion. This was then expanded to explain why Orks like to use looted Imperial vehicles and other Imperial technology and mannerisms.

To an ork admitting your head's off is a weakness. They'd be worse than men at going to the doctor. They should be the ones least likely to have medics. The doks aren't interested in healing anyone, just experimentin'. And it's far easier to do that when your subject has just been shot in the face and can't fight back.

Hellebore

Kriegfreak
19-11-2009, 01:33
Actually, the Eldar codex does make mention of doctors specifically.


Page 51, Eldar Codex "Psychic Runes", last paragraph''

"As his powers develop a Seer will usually favor some aspect of his art. Some develop their kinetic powers and use them to create living symphonies of shape and movement. Others learn how to use their emphatic powers to heal and counsel, and they assume the roles of advisors or doctors"

So they do make a weak mention of it in the Eldar codex at least. It would have been cool to have seen something akin to this in the actual game though. Perhaps a pure defense type Aspect warrior with pure support abilities for other units. A type of aura that might temporarily boost Toughness to 4, or make a unit fearless for a turn. Something like that!

Arakanis
19-11-2009, 01:51
So they do make a weak mention of it in the Eldar codex at least. It would have been cool to have seen something akin to this in the actual game though. Perhaps a pure defense type Aspect warrior with pure support abilities for other units. A type of aura that might temporarily boost Toughness to 4, or make a unit fearless for a turn. Something like that! While it's a cool idea, some how I feel that Healer psykers probably have some sort of an Aspect of the Healer much as Warlocks are Aspects of the Warrior within the greater Path of the Seer.

Though, much as Kage2020 has posited, there are probably non-Psyker healers as well, much as there are probably non-bonesinger engineers.

I think a supporting warrior Aspect devoted to healing might fly in the face of the greater Path of the Warrior.



It's not 'fine' when Space Marines die. Fluff wise it's a great loss when one of these perfect warriors fall in battle, blah blah blah. So they have field medics to patch them up or to save gene seed.
Oh, and the Eldar don't care when their warriors fall in battle? Personally, I believe the loss of a Space Marine is a perceived loss. They're easily replaced. Eldar and Tau on the other hand need all the soldiers (And citizens!) they can get.




The IG have field medics probably to make sure the Command Structure is kept alive. Guardsmen die in droves and I don't see medics trying to help them. It's all about keeping the head shed alive while the grunts go off and die.


I believe that the reason that the IG Have medics in the command squad is because in REAL armies there's about two medics per company (I think that's right) and they're technically officers (don't quote me on that) anyways, it would hard in game to show a single medic running from squad to squad (Though it might be interesting if he did)

ImhotepMagi
19-11-2009, 04:44
I actually like the fact that there aren't medics all over the place in the game. By and large, a field medic isn't actually going to be able to patch someone up well enough to fight on. Most are there simply to keep a wounded soldier from dying before they can be evacuated, or make them comfortable if they are a lost cause.

From a mechanics standpoint, it also promotes a little more freedom in army selection. In AT-43, for example, every faction has options for medics (and mechanics :wtf: ) in every squad. If you don't have these in each squad, you are putting yourself at a disadvantage immediately before deploying.

At least in 40k you can choose to take a command squad if its in your play style, but you can survive just as well without. The only one I sort of see as auto-include are Ork doks in nob units, but that's simply because FnP is better then their abysmal armor save.

EDIT: Oh, and Deathwing apothecaries. Every terminator counts.

Chem-Dog
19-11-2009, 05:17
are there still apothacaries in Codex Space Maine.. i dont think so.

There are, only in a command squad, but they are there.


But Imperial medics don't really show a care for life.

Imperial medics in every example are part of the unit they are fighting with, a Catachan Medic, is a Catachan with a medipack a Ultramarines Medix is still very much an Ultramarine, it's safe to say that they give a hoot, higher command may not, but the medics themselves will.



I'm sure the Tau have a form of medic, it's likely they will be based at a field hospital and that Tau casualties are evacuated from the field ASAP via Devilfish.

Don't forget that Tau armour is an integrated battle suit, so a certain amount of medical treatment could be administered via that (Painkillers, coagulants ect).


Eldar I'm guessing will have a form of psyker-medic, i.e. using psychic powers to re-knit wounds, heal skin, etc rather than surgical tools.

A role that could be either be assumed to be part of a Warlock's activities in battle OR simply in the skill set of a number of guardians who have trod the path of the seer at some point in their lives.


You realize Eldar are up to 4th edition now, right?:wtf:

5th edition really, they were released late 4th in preparation for the 5th.


I notice that the game mechanic has gotten more callous since the previous edition as well. Apothecaries and such used to negate the first failed save the unit took (patching up wounds, stopping bloodloss, etc), which feels more like the Apoth kneeling next to his fallen comrade and applying first aid.

Now, he's just granting FNP to the whole unit...sounds more like he's just administering big doses of pain killers and stimulants to everyone, to get them functional for the next 6 turns of combat, never mind the blood pumping all over the ground...

Simple mechanics, saving a single failed save is virtually useless.


Power Armour was a 4+ save

Only to start with, at the same time Marines were S3 T3 and powerarmour reduced movement because of it's bulk, Marines were upgraded to S4 T4 Sv 3+ during rogue trader days.



So they do make a weak mention of it in the Eldar codex at least. It would have been cool to have seen something akin to this in the actual game though. Perhaps a pure defense type Aspect warrior with pure support abilities for other units. A type of aura that might temporarily boost Toughness to 4, or make a unit fearless for a turn. Something like that!

Or a Warlock power that reduces chances of injury....perhaps a 5+ coversave? :p



Personally, I believe the loss of a Space Marine is a perceived loss. They're easily replaced.

If, by easily replaced you mean
1 Successful recovery of both progenoids
2 Successful harvesting of the material held in the progenoids
3 Successful regrowth of new organs
4 Successful implantation in an aspirant (who one of only a few per generation)
5 Successful completion of all implant phases.
6 Successful growth of all implants
7 Successful completion of an Initiate's training and induction into a battle company.

Yeah, easily replaced.;)

Hellebore
19-11-2009, 05:30
Considering the sheer number of people in the Imperium and the number of candidates needed to replace marines it wouldn't be a problem. We are talking about replacing a few casualties and at worst replacing 1000 people. Now in a population of 100 million you have 100,000 potential recruits for every single astartes, assuming the entire chapter was destroyed and it needed to be rebuilt from a single planet. That's using a planetary population 1/3rd the total of the US. An entire planet with a population 1/3rd that of the US.

In the course of normal recruitment they might need to replace 10-15 marines depending on casualties. That turns a planetary population of 100 million into requiring to provide ONE successful recruit out of every 6,666,666 people if 15 recruits are required. Of that many people there will be dozens of acceptable applicants. Consider that even a 1% acceptance rate is still 66,666 people to replace ONE marine. Or lets go to 1 in 1000 people (0.001%). That's 6,666 possible applicants. Lets go to one in a million, that's STILL 6.6 possible applicants. Now lets look at a normal planet rather than one that looks like an anorexic USA. The Imperial Fists take recruits from Necromunda. It is a hive world and they have populations in excess of modern earth. 1 in a million out of 10 billion people is still 10,000 recruits, enough to outfit TEN marine chapters.

Then there are the fleet based chapters that aren't restricted to a single planet (or the Ultramarines having Ultramar to choose from). No, there is no fear of space marines running out of recruits. They used to recruit far less selectively during the Great Crusade anyway, so marine recruits really aren't as vaunted as they are superficially made out to be.

They can even grow 1000 sets of organs in 55 years artificially anyway, so geneseed isn't a problem.

The space marines are a pyramid institution. Each chapter requires 1000 members and that sits on the quintillions of humans in the Imperial population.

EDIT: Basically assuming a 1 in a million application (I doubt very much this is the case, maybe 1 in a 1000 at worst), the US ALONE could provide 3 whole companies of recruits in a single induction. Given the birth rate this would be sustainable for ever.

Hellebore

WLBjork
19-11-2009, 06:54
Only to start with, at the same time Marines were S3 T3 and powerarmour reduced movement because of it's bulk, Marines were upgraded to S4 T4 Sv 3+ during rogue trader days.

Carapace reduced capabilities.

Power Armour didn't.

Both gave a 4+ save.

BaronDG
19-11-2009, 08:01
Nonsense, marines were always strength 4. Toughness was 3, as others have pointed out...

Lord Solar Plexus
19-11-2009, 08:56
So what then was this mysterious grievous transcription error from 2nd to 3rd edition?

Karhedron
19-11-2009, 09:12
A 5+ save back in 2nd edition was still enough to grant a save against bolter fire but not heavy bolters. Converting to the AP system this should equate to a 4+ save. Also the shuriken catapult was better than a storm bolter.

Guardians got massively nerfed in 3rd edition being lumbered with armour that suddenly offered no more protection than a flak jacket and a gun with the range of a pistol.

This has led to their side-lining ever since and they have never really recovered. This does not mean that Guardians are not useful, it just means they get used for things like baby-sitting Wraithlords etc or in hordes with an Avatar behind. The first is not a productive use in points in many scenarios while the second is just downright unfluffy.

lanrak
19-11-2009, 09:43
Hi all.
I would like to point out that 40k development is completley different to most other games.

Most other games develop from a solid analouge to give a well defined comprehencive rule set that is intuitive to use.And the minatures increase the asthetic appeal of the game.

40k depends on what cool minatures the sculptors create.
Good minatures are given extra rules and a big fluff padding.
(To try to improve increased in game worth/rule of cool, which can be use to justify an inflated retail price.)

All the armies with specialised models (special characters too,)only have them becuase of artistic creativity,NOT game play requirement.

40k is a very abstract game, with no stable real world annalouge.

If the sculptors made a cool looking Eldar -Tau medic they would have one!
Its a simple as that realy.

TTFN
Lanrak.

Poseidal
19-11-2009, 10:17
Eldar medics can easily be passed off into the Warlock or a Seer's domain though. There are models for Warlocks and Seers. I guess it might overlap too much with Fortune though?

As for Power Armour changing, it was 4+ from the start of Rogue Trader up until the 1992 battle manual where it was still 4+, just before 2nd edition.

Vaktathi
19-11-2009, 11:51
A 5+ save back in 2nd edition was still enough to grant a save against bolter fire but not heavy bolters. Converting to the AP system this should equate to a 4+ save. Also the shuriken catapult was better than a storm bolter. Saves were not converted when AP changed, only weapons AP, which was usually whatever the negative was (e.g. -3) equating to the AP that would allow no saves against that shot normally under 2E (so -3 would be AP4). The only saves they changed were what was required to fit the AP system.

The only major saves that changed were Guardsmen and Terminators IIRC excepting certain special wargear stuff. Terminators because rolling 2d6 for each wound is really awkward and time consuming and no longer worked under the AP system without modifiers, and Guardsmen, probably because they didn't want to mess with the fiddly bits of a dual save against different types of weapons that they weren't going to take most of the time anyway, and then upgraded the AP on bolters to continue to ignore it.

Aspect armor and guardian armor didn't change, nor did Carapace or Power Armor. Only certain weapons AP and Guardsmen Flak.



Guardians got massively nerfed in 3rd edition being lumbered with armour that suddenly offered no more protection than a flak jacket and a gun with the range of a pistol. I don't think I'd call going from a 6+ against bolters to *nothing* was a massive nerf. They increased the Bolter's AP really from a -1, which normally would have translate to AP6 in the changeover, to AP5. At the same time, the Lasgun lost all armor pen ability as it was identical to the bolter.

Guardians also save on 5's now against all opponents regardless of S unless it's a powerweapon, whereas in 2nd ed they only had a 6+ against S4 and nothing against S5 or higher.

The big nerf wasn't the armor, it was the gun.

Brother Loki
19-11-2009, 13:00
I suspect you could put it down to a difference in philosophy, as well as an abstraction in terms of what is a 'casualty'. I see it as someone being out of the fight, not necessarily dead. Tau and Eldar medics would primarily be concerned with keeping casualties alive. Imperial ones are primarily concerned with keeping you fighting.

If you get shot, which of these has the best chance of making it through the golden hour?
A. Lie down and take no further part in the battle while your techno armour stabilises you, waiting for medevac
...or:
B. Pump up on painkillers and keep charging around like a nutter with your arm hanging off.

I would submit that in most cases, A has the better chance of long term survival.

Arbas
19-11-2009, 13:09
IIRC one of the game developers did an article in WD saying that all aspect armies should be the norm for Eldar since a dying race would only reinforce their military aspects with guardians in the direst of circumstances .... 2nd edition days of course :)

Arakanis
19-11-2009, 13:42
I suspect you could put it down to a difference in philosophy, as well as an abstraction in terms of what is a 'casualty'. I see it as someone being out of the fight, not necessarily dead. Tau and Eldar medics would primarily be concerned with keeping casualties alive. Imperial ones are primarily concerned with keeping you fighting.

If you get shot, which of these has the best chance of making it through the golden hour?
A. Lie down and take no further part in the battle while your techno armour stabilises you, waiting for medevac
...or:
B. Pump up on painkillers and keep charging around like a nutter with your arm hanging off.

I would submit that in most cases, A has the better chance of long term survival.

Okay, fair enough. What about a model that acts like the old Apothocaries and ignores shooting casualties within X distance for morale checks? I.E. They were hit, the medic got them out of there, yay for us?