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Creamy Goodness
17-05-2005, 20:17
Seeing as the big news lately is that Tau are on the way in '06, I guess we should start getting some news going on them. Plus I've been thinking of starting them for a while, so I wanna know where you guys think they're heading.

Guess the first thing I'd expect is new battlesuit variants. Dunno about CC suits, that would be a huge break with fluff, and take away from their one main weakness. Probably just new weaponry I guess. GW has said before they want to represent their rapid technological development with new Tau weapons sooner rather than later.

Flame Boy
17-05-2005, 20:26
I think it's possible that CC suits could be viable for some more aggressive Tau worlds (as some Tau are probably by now noticing that their close-combat advarsaries are actually quite mobile and able to assualt), but the problem would be that you would have to keep them as less than the sum of their parts, so they wouldn't be used.

Perhaps instead Tau could develop anti-assault deterrent units and weapons, but that just sounds like battlesuits with lots of flamers to me, so I defer to someone else's ideas.

The problem is that in the case of the Tau army, the close combat potential is a lack rather than a weakness... they still need to keep their weekness, but they probably need more variety to counter assaults. The Tau shouldn't have to rely on Kroot to save them in every battle. Maybe that's what Pathfinders, Battlesuits and Stealthsuits and drones are for, but I wouldn't really know. Thinking about it, I guess the Drones are probably their anti-assault unit from the fluff p.o.v, keeping the enemy away from Tau lines with suppressive fire and jumping about to keep at arm's length?

Chris
17-05-2005, 20:49
I hope we'll see Tetras as a new unit and more weapon options for the Gun drones

boogle
17-05-2005, 21:47
no Tetras as the are FW, i would like to see a Medium Gun Drone upgrade for the FW (you can take it instad of 2 Gun/Shield Drones), and it fits a single Battlesuit Weapon, also we may see a Rail Rifle mounted on a suit or more options for the Stealth Suits (if they are to be made into plastic as has been rumoured)

athamas
17-05-2005, 22:00
some more wargear would be nice....
its actually impossible for a tau commander to use his 50 pt wargear limit [mak wargear cost is 49!]

possible incluion of the new FW models would be Very nice...

Lion El Jason
17-05-2005, 22:13
GW will never include FW models into the main range -the closest they have come is with IG tanks and tank companies but citadel are never going to be making those models...

boogle
17-05-2005, 22:19
maybe a smaller battlesuit version of the disruption pod/sensor spines

Lainer
17-05-2005, 22:40
IF the Tau list is revised w could see: (only my guesses)

-A larger battlesuit. ( Using the walker rules )
-A new type of drone (not sure what kind though)
-Firewarriors with different weapons ( fusion blaster etc.)
-A firewarrior veteran-type squad
-Some sort of artillery -Think basilisk on an anti-grav platform

Bruen
17-05-2005, 23:00
I expect them to revise Broadsides, because they really don't fit in with the mobile firepower ethos of Tau.

boogle
17-05-2005, 23:08
thats the thing, the Broadsides aren't meant to fit in with the Battlesuits as they are the equivilent of a War Walker or a slower moving Sentinel

Xisor
18-05-2005, 01:14
I can envisage them allowing broadsides to walk and fire, if not jump and fire.(perhaps only able to jump if they haven't fired).

As for the rest:

Kroot: Made properly useful. Hounds & Ox become upgrades to the squad, and perhaps some inclusion of other forms of Kroot to take space elsewhere.

Foot Leaders: Not every battle 'need' be lead by a suit commander IMO. A Foot leader with a varied 'retinue', a Kroot Shaper advisor, a human conspirator, a Demiurg, a Nicassar etc.

In this manner, they'd take a form akin to the Imperial Guard, but still *not* the Imperial Guard.

Perhaps a slight expansion for their auxilliaries: official Gue'vesa squads, perhaps all-new auxilliaries?

Xisor

Inquisitor Engel
18-05-2005, 01:19
Seeing as the big news lately is that Tau are on the way in '06,
If by "big news" you mean "utter rubbish made my confused Forgeworld Fanboys" then you'd be absolutely correct!

Ass Goblin
18-05-2005, 01:20
I just wish they would fix the loop hole with the jumping. There is nothing more annoying with a Tau player staying behind cover and then jumping over in the moving phase. Shooting then hiding in the assult phase. It shows a distinct lack of sportsman ship. Also it's damm cheesy to have 2 minumum firewarrior squads and fill the rest of the suits all kitted up with long range weapons. Then spending the whole battle doing the same thing.

bigbauske
18-05-2005, 04:36
I can think of several distinct things

broardsides that move and shoot (not jumping though) I see these guys slowly striding across the battlefield for fire support unleashing thier power

pathfinders on foot. like long range recon. moving ahead a day or two infront of the main force setting up and then awaiting the attack

BS 4 for elites - sorry they are elites

fixing drone rules

Just a few thoughts.

Kittah
18-05-2005, 04:55
...Broadsides aren't equipped with jetpacks of any kind.


(just for those few who seem to be getting confused)

Samoth
18-05-2005, 05:23
I just wish they would fix the loop hole with the jumping. There is nothing more annoying with a Tau player staying behind cover and then jumping over in the moving phase. Shooting then hiding in the assult phase. It shows a distinct lack of sportsman ship. Also it's damm cheesy to have 2 minumum firewarrior squads and fill the rest of the suits all kitted up with long range weapons. Then spending the whole battle doing the same thing.

While I dont agree with min-maxing fw's to get more suits, jumping fowards and back is pretty much the whole point.

Thing's I think will change:
Shas'vre. Most uselss things ever. no better leader ship, no beter guns, no better anything. All they get is ws 3 and i 3, and armoury access, all of which is useless.
Drones. Again, useless, they need to be fixed (attached, not squad ones). New varients probably too.
Krootox. Same thing. Waste of points. Make the gun assault two, lower the points, and they might be worth it, but it still hurts to use a heavy slot on them.

Those are the only things tau really NEED. Model wise, I'd expect new XV8s and broadsides. The rest of the army seems ok. Ruleswise additions, I reckon lot's of new bits and bobs, as well as maybe the odd new unit type. The tau codex is one of the sparsest stand-alone's out there.

Edit: and for those who say broadsides arent mobile - they're dropped from manta's. They dont walk everywhere. And that's not the point - ever heard of mont'ka?

twisted_mentat
18-05-2005, 06:05
Yea, Broadsides get 2+ save and loose jumpacks.

And the Jump into cover aftering shooting is basicly the point, what do you expect them? to assult your force? i think not....

But yea, According to the guys i know at GW, tau are not comming up next year...

I would't be surprised if we see something new for the tau, but at the same time, don't be surprised to see something new for each army....

sulla
18-05-2005, 06:25
I would hope Tau stay pretty much as they are. If they are expanded, I would hope it is through the medium of new allied races. I see the tau as an army that is fairly set in stone. If they encounter an enemy that their tactics can't cope with, they are likely to recruit allies that can counter that foe/tactic.

Plus, new alien races would (IMO) fit better into the tau book than the alien hunter book.

the spook
18-05-2005, 07:24
I seem to remember seeing a rumour floating about another board, think it was Tau online, where someone was saying that there is supposed to be a new set of suits coming out, metal figs that are somewhere in between stealth & crisis suits in size. Purpose is unknown, and may be a total bag of gas for all i know.

Slazton
18-05-2005, 07:59
The one thing I would like to see is that they incorperate the Kroot Merc list into the main stream codex, making it Tau and Kroot Codex as it should be IMHO.

One other thing is a larger wargear choice as mentioned, but nothing hand to hand related, but something that allows them to do something in hand to hand, if anything have some sort of defense mechanism that treats them in cover for assault purposes on the first charge. (Like having a pike wall for charging horses in Warhammer etc).

Another thing would be a close-support unit, or battlesuit out-fitted to kill charges, by causing terror and confusion. Maybe some sort of mortar launcher, a cluster style bombing from a battlesuit mortar shelling weapon perhaps?

Other than that, its all in the hands of GW, in which with Tau, I feel they are capable.

Scythe
18-05-2005, 10:19
Thing's I think will change:
Shas'vre. Most uselss things ever. no better leader ship, no beter guns, no better anything. All they get is ws 3 and i 3, and armoury access, all of which is useless.
Drones. Again, useless, they need to be fixed (attached, not squad ones). New varients probably too.
Krootox. Same thing. Waste of points. Make the gun assault two, lower the points, and they might be worth it, but it still hurts to use a heavy slot on them.



Agreed on all three points. Those are the things that really need changing.

Furthermore, I'd like to see human allies as part of the book, and (wishfull thinking, I know) tetras and piranhas as part of the list.

And on the broadsides, maybe it's an idea to give them slow and purposefull?

Killgore
18-05-2005, 11:07
As GW could justifie increasing the games best troop type to have +1 point for extra +1 BS which was Sisters of Battle, I see no reason why they could not do the same for Tau FireWarriors



after all, a 3+ save is seriously better then the FireWarriors 4+ and I beleave the difference between the Bolter and Pulse Rifle to be minimal as chances are marines will still make their 3+ save when wounded by either weapon.


At the moment in a 1 on 1 fight, between a Fire Warrior and a SoB I'd always bet on the Sister winning.



BS 4 for FireWarriors!

Rich
18-05-2005, 11:36
As GW could justifie increasing the games best troop type to have +1 point for extra +1 BS which was Sisters of Battle, I see no reason why they could not do the same for Tau FireWarriors.

I, on the other hand, can see no reason to justify a BS4 either in terms of fluff or rules. The Tau already benefit from the best basic weapon in the game, and they simply aren't as good as Space Marines - in particular, if Tau were BS4 then Imperial Guard and Ork armies would have an even harder time in defeating them, and unless there was a big points increase to justify it, it would make them too powerful. In particular, it would increase the effectiveness of their heavy weapons drastically, and make battlesuits even harder to take out.


Guess the first thing I'd expect is new battlesuit variants. Dunno about CC suits, that would be a huge break with fluff, and take away from their one main weakness.

The one thing that Tau do not need is close combat battlesuits. The Tau do not recognise hand-to-hand as a viable tactic and would not make units specifically for that purpose. Apart from anything else, there is no point in them having a weakness if it is closed up with new units. It makes about as much sence as Dwarf cavalry for fantasy. The one thing that differentiates the IG and the Tau, both shooty armies, is the IGs ability to wield some credible CC units (especially with the massive amount of power weapons they can summon up).

Apart from anything else, why make tau as a 'quick revision, minimum work' project if you then spend time extensively playtesting new units and bringing in major changes in terms of stats and so forth? The codex is an update, which probably means minor rules amendments, inclusion of the 'chapter approved' units and some new fluf to represent the Tau expansion during EOT.


If by "big news" you mean "utter rubbish made my confused Forgeworld Fanboys" then you'd be absolutely correct!

Let's hope so! I still tend not to believe anything on this forum unless it has been confirmed by one of the more regularly reliable sources..... so which one will be after BTs? ;) :D

charlie_c67
18-05-2005, 11:41
Since this is all purely speculation there's no point getting worked up over things. However, merely using power armour as a comparison is a misnomar (sp?) as only 4 races have a 3+ save, namely SoB, GK, SM and CSM. The majority of other races have 4+ or worse though there are some troop types/wargear that allow better. Therefore it would better to compare tau, a shooty army, to another shooty army, such as IG.

Scythe
18-05-2005, 11:54
I, on the other hand, can see no reason to justify a BS4 either in terms of fluff or rules. The Tau already benefit from the best basic weapon in the game, and they simply aren't as good as Space Marines - in particular, if Tau were BS4 then Imperial Guard and Ork armies would have an even harder time in defeating them, and unless there was a big points increase to justify it, it would make them too powerful. In particular, it would increase the effectiveness of their heavy weapons drastically, and make battlesuits even harder to take out.


Agreed. The last thing fire warriors need is BS4. They function nice enough with BS3 as they are. Remember the pulse rifle is simply the best basic weapon in the game. Shas'ui also function good enough with BS3. Shas'vre, battle hardened veterans, on the other hand (which are currently a rip off), deserve BS4 in my opinion.


Since this is all purely speculation there's no point getting worked up over things. However, merely using power armour as a comparison is a misnomar (sp?) as only 4 races have a 3+ save, namely SoB, GK, SM and CSM. The majority of other races have 4+ or worse though there are some troop types/wargear that allow better. Therefore it would better to compare tau, a shooty army, to another shooty army, such as IG.

Forgot necrons there... :D

But I agree, SoB and Fire Warriors can't really be compared to each other.

Odin
18-05-2005, 12:10
I would hope Tau stay pretty much as they are. If they are expanded, I would hope it is through the medium of new allied races. I see the tau as an army that is fairly set in stone.

Er, they're one of the few races in 40K who are actually developing. If anyone can adapt to deal with new threats it's Tau or Tyranids. Far from set in stone.

As for Bs 3 for Fire Warriors, they only have Bs3 because of the technology in their suits - don't forget they have poor depth perception and reflexes, so would probably be Bs2 normally!

de Selby
18-05-2005, 12:26
Hang on, hang on. Are the Tau getting updated or not? Engel says this is 'utter rubbish made up by confused GW fanboys'. What's the original source? For utter rubbish, the story has legs...

charlie_c67
18-05-2005, 12:29
Engel's reference is to the fact that people have been tting mixed up between GW's codex's and FW's Taros campaign based IA3 leading some people to assume that where FW go GW automatically follow.

O'kais
18-05-2005, 13:30
I wouldn't mind seeing the Tetra, Piranha and Orca in the list, god i love those models.

Negafex
18-05-2005, 13:32
i think that even for a couple extra points the battle suits stealth suits and broad side teams deserve BS4 as i use a lot of stealth suits and one squad generally makes 3-7 on the to hit roll. besides you would think they have sensors or something to compensate for BS 4. i play tau and realised that good guns alone does not compensate for any lack of cc ability whatsoever they should know how to shoot the guns as well.

Creamy Goodness
18-05-2005, 13:54
No, don't make them bs4. I like the fact that their unparalelled technology is balanced in both fluff and game terms by their physical limitations as a race. They SHOULD be naff in assaults, and their technology is what makes them bs3, due to their crappy senses and all. If GW does what they say they're going to do, namely give them new weaponry to represent their rapid technological development, they would become unbalanced should they also have access to bs4. Perhaps restrict it to elite suits, but make 'em pay for it. bs4 railguns=cheese.

I liked the comment on some type of defensive assault options, perhaps some energy-field type of shield, that would be kinda cool IMO and fit in with their fluff without making them strong in CC still. Bottom line they need more options to get in line with 4th ed. codices if they DO get a full update.

Human auxilaries need to become a full part of any new Tau army, a new box set is in order. I can see the Tau employing the use of humans in their forces as a flexible force component, perhaps being able to wield two weapons? I can see them being a good middle choice between uber-teched fire warriors and primordial kroot, and able to wield both cc weapons and ranged weaponry. This would really round out the army, and inject some much needed variety and choice. Ditto for new drones, the most obvious development being heavy gun drones in my mind. Railrifles I guess would be an obvious armament for it.

Engel, relax. You should get more fibre in your diet. ;)

malika
18-05-2005, 14:01
I have two words: "organic battlesuit"

What about more variants based on the devilfish chassis?

Veteran Firewarriors might be something too

Perhaps some Earthcast member with repair drones or sometihng fancy like that, Earthcast representatives might be nice.

Chris
18-05-2005, 14:18
What about more variants based on the devilfish chassis?

Veteran Firewarriors might be something too

Perhaps some Earthcast member with repair drones or sometihng fancy like that, Earthcast representatives might be nice.

Theres are all cool and workable ideas. I've already heard people say they would like to see a Tau Equivelant of a razorback, so put out a new turret spruce with maybe a choice of one set of twin linked battlesuit weapons on it. A second spruce for a artillery barrage template weapon ala whirlewind would also make hammerhead tanks less of an obvious heavy support choice. I also did the idea of an earth caste tank repair guy with mechanic drones... cool.

Creamy Goodness
18-05-2005, 14:23
Just what IS an organic battlesuit, anyway? Do you mean a battle system that is constantly reacting to it's surroundings or an actual battlesuit made out of some sort of manipulated organic source, al la wraithbone?

malika
18-05-2005, 14:58
Nobody really knows what this 'organic battlesuit' is, it was a old Tau rumour.

However like mentioned earlier I would like to see more wargear options for characters

athamas
18-05-2005, 15:29
a bs increase should only be given to the veteran battle suits, instead of the Ws one...


yes tau are 'good' at shooting, but only when you take lots of suits, the thing that would be nice is fire warrior armies that dont rely on shoot or die very horribly...

the problem is ppl see that tau are good at shooting but fail to see how totaly usless they are in combat...

i like the idea of medium drones, ie HW dron with suit weapon, this would allow them to have allittle more flexability, without having lots of squad upgrades...

Piku
18-05-2005, 15:37
Organic battlesuit: less blocky, more curvy.

All I really want to see from the Tau is more arms.
The tau don't have enough arm (limb) variation.
Oh and a pointy finger model, even the nids had one of them.

Castigator
18-05-2005, 16:45
Well I guess the Tau should get a "bring-em-around-for-the-greater-good-of-the-galaxy" propaganda Unit thats basically a hovercraft with a big speakers that rants along a never-ending litany on "eternal prosperity and peace in the galaxy under the benevolent guidance of the Tau" and some oversized screens that show pictures of happy aliens dancing under rainbowcolored skys.

Than every enemy unit should be required to make Leadership tests every single time they actually want to shoot or charge anything other than the mobile Tau-Prosperity-for-all-if-you-just-listen commercial wagon.

Tim
18-05-2005, 19:13
How about sharp shooter for Tau, like the IG doctrine (reroll ones), this would make them a little better in shooting without making the BS4

Warlord Gnashgrod
18-05-2005, 19:46
Well, Tau could certainly use a unit for their fast attacks selection that would actually be 'fast'. Perhaps the tetra and/or piranha I've heard of from Forgeworld?

Creamy Goodness
18-05-2005, 19:51
I'd like to see a suit between stealth and crisis, one that could fill a fast attack slot. Some sort of jump pack troops with 3+ or 4+ saves would be nice. 'Specially if they could move and shoot.

boogle
18-05-2005, 20:26
well we'll just have to wait and see what comes about and who believes what (Engel or Farsee Cirdan) i'm in Engels camp to be honest

alterion
18-05-2005, 20:59
i dont' mind who is right . but here are some changes i would like to see for tau that i have not seen anywhere else yet...
1)- drop 1 point of the cost of a firewarrior... i reckon that would balance them out nicley
2) new assault weapon for firewarrior squads.. ok mybe assault is not the best word maybe anti-assault would be better a gun thta can fire as a unit is assaulted or something...
3) 40k scale manta.. hey i can dream
4)drones to be not only fixed but overhauled.. i just don't reckon they have ever worked as a unit properly
5) tetra's to be cast in plastic- see 3

athamas
18-05-2005, 22:07
i agree with 1, 2 and 4,

on point 1, if you compare SoB and Tau fire warriors, the FW get a raw deal... also making max squad size bigger would help!

on point 2, the inclusion of weapon drones or simular as support upgrade for squads would be nice

Pokpoko
18-05-2005, 22:36
1)agreed,there may be more armies without Sv 3+ on paper,but it seems that everyone is playing those with 3+..even eldar.
2)instead of forcing GW to come up with new,expensive models, there is a quick and simple way to add such option,especially since the rule is existing already-just re-word the "Psycho Blasta"warbike rule, so that when a unit of FW is charged,it may make normal shooting attacks, that automaticly strike first,with the weapons S and AP(ie-if enemy charged form over 12" each FW gets one shot,if charged from below 12" it gets 2 shots as per Rapid Fire)
3)and some "heavy suits",like dreadnoughts would be nice:D
4)just bring the old "bullet catcher"rules back.or maybe allow drone squads to move after DS, like new lictor does.
6)sharpshooter ability for crisis squads;]

shutupSHUTUP!!!
18-05-2005, 23:32
I like the way Tau players believe its OK for them for fire warriors to be overpowered against all those 4+ save armies, although after all, nobody plays them...

Fire warriors are a total pain in the ass for my imperial guard, they work great against my guardsmen, if they dont work so well versus marines (as if they should anyway, neither do my guardsmen point-for-point you know), then the tau army as a whole should be able to deal them, just as my army as a whole can deal with the tau/marines.

Who takes huge amounts of fire warriors anyway? people complain that fire warriors can't accomplish anything "without battlesuits", they must have some belief that all units should be able to win without any support from another unit, which is ridiculous. Fire warriors are meant to work with the rest of the army (AKA battlesuits). They think they should be able to make a "unit X only" or "no unit X" army, and that is should work well even if they chose not to use key elements of the race their playing, and that if it doesn't, its unbalanced.
Some fool where I play uses 50 fire warriors in 1500 points, and blames them for being unbalanced because he doesn't win much. The truth is, his army is poor and so is his playing skill.

So fire warriors themselves, I believe, are fine. Making them "balanced" versus marines isn't good if its at the expense of other armies. Making point-for-point comparisons from one unit to another in a different race serves balance poorly.

rogula
18-05-2005, 23:55
Shutup is right.... You need to look at the army as a whole and make a comparison there.

Personally, I would rather see NON Close Combat solutions for the Tau. What those are... Im not sure. Maybe more options for Drones (Fire Support Drones, Sensor Drones.....) and. Maybe more optoins for Stealth Suits (longer range weapon optoins)....

And NON forge world crisis suit changes... new arms/lets to get more dynamic poses without haveint to hack up the parts...

pullsyjr
19-05-2005, 09:58
Inderiect fire weapons (EMP perhaps?) to help take out those hidden ordnance vehicles.

Rich
19-05-2005, 10:09
I like the way Tau players believe its OK for them for fire warriors to be overpowered against all those 4+ save armies, although after all, nobody plays them...

Fire warriors are a total pain in the ass for my imperial guard, they work great against my guardsmen, if they dont work so well versus marines (as if they should anyway, neither do my guardsmen point-for-point you know), then the tau army as a whole should be able to deal them, just as my army as a whole can deal with the tau/marines.

Who takes huge amounts of fire warriors anyway? people complain that fire warriors can't accomplish anything "without battlesuits", they must have some belief that all units should be able to win without any support from another unit, which is ridiculous. Fire warriors are meant to work with the rest of the army (AKA battlesuits). They think they should be able to make a "unit X only" or "no unit X" army, and that is should work well even if they chose not to use key elements of the race their playing, and that if it doesn't, its unbalanced.
Some fool where I play uses 50 fire warriors in 1500 points, and blames them for being unbalanced because he doesn't win much. The truth is, his army is poor and so is his playing skill.

So fire warriors themselves, I believe, are fine. Making them "balanced" versus marines isn't good if its at the expense of other armies. Making point-for-point comparisons from one unit to another in a different race serves balance poorly.


Amen to that sir.

Creamy Goodness
19-05-2005, 15:12
Exactly. There's a lot of uppity ****** out there who feel that if they suck it must be due to GW's evil plan to nerf their particular army.

malika
19-05-2005, 15:41
I would like to see more stuff and background for the Farsight Enclave...but that isnt gonna happen anytime soon I think

XaNder
19-05-2005, 16:17
I like the way Tau players believe its OK for them for fire warriors to be overpowered against all those 4+ save armies, although after all, nobody plays them...


Actually my codex states fire warriors have a weapon with AP 5 ...not AP4. Fire Warriors are not overpoered nor underpowered. Against any kind of foe. It's ridiculous even just to think so. Fire warriors are not an army while IG is. You may say Tau are overpowered against IG. I personally think not. (Pls don't start the "OH, sure they are overpowered, in my last game...." thing: this is the rumour section by the way.)
Anyhow, actually the thread has been a bit hijacked, if ever it has been in topic (this is a discussion about consequences of an unconfirmed rumour, not a rumour).

Back -somehow- on topic. The bio-suit has never been officially develloped (not even concept-wise AFAIK). The mid range suit the guy who pretends that he has been speaking to Pete announced may be a completely new one. The fact of gettig out some new models is quite believable seeing the number/range of miniatures Tau have from Citadel. Only Necrons have that few (poor Necrons btw!).

As for devellopment ideas there's a forum on GW site though chances that anyone (that could implement anything) will read your posts are very few.

Anyhow, we'll live and -hopefully- see.
Cheers,
XaN

Negafex
19-05-2005, 21:11
i think it would would be cool to see a supplement like the craftworlds except for with tau septs with different specialties and abilities and possibly different battle suit variations

Cloudscape_online
19-05-2005, 22:00
Personally, I would rather see NON Close Combat solutions for the Tau. What those are... Im not sure.

Defensive Overwatch. It is/will be teh cool. The unit wouldn't move shoot or assault in it's own turn. Rapid fire weapons only, fired at the beginning of the opponents assault phase. If the unit is engaged in CC, fails leadership, or is forced to move, Overwatch is lost.

Can you tell I'm trying to push this idea?

Bruen
19-05-2005, 22:18
I like the way Tau players believe its OK for them for fire warriors to be overpowered against all those 4+ save armies, although after all, nobody plays them...

I played over 100 games last year, and all but 3 of them were against SM or CSM. For me if its not effective against Marines then it might as well not exist.

This is a sad side effect of there being so many Marine players.

Back on topic I would like to see some more drone varieties and for them to make human auxiliaries a full part of the codex with much increased options.

I think that a medium drone with better weapons would be a great idea, fix shield drones. Perhaps also some more exotic units like medicare drones to regain wounds (like the new Tyranid regen perhaps) and repair drones for vehicles, suicide drones or mine-clearing drones

For human auxiliaries I think that you could lift armored fist squads and basic infantry squads driectly froim the IG codex, change the wargear and weapons slightly and go with that. I do not think that they should be allowed power weapons, Imperial plasma guns or similar Imperium-specific weapons but they should get replacement Tau weapons.

athamas
19-05-2005, 23:12
I like the way Tau players believe its OK for them for fire warriors to be overpowered against all those 4+ save armies, although after all, nobody plays them....etc


ahh yes, but fire warriors are the main part of the tau army, so there should be quite a few of them! often you see large armies with 2 ~9 strong squads, 12+ crisis suits, and 2 hammer heads and 3 braodsides...

an army should have a resonable amount of ist basic troop, currently this is not the case, as FW are not that usefull, and crisis suits are!

the tau are far from broken, but they have flaws in their list,

susu.exp
19-05-2005, 23:48
I can´t believe nobody came up with the obvious: Sept doctrines. Possibly with the option of havin a Tau force that can actually assault, but balanced, so that it´s only viable for heavily themed armies, probably based on Farsight.

What I´d like to see as well:
1) Defensive Grenade launcher for Battlesuits. Costs a hardpoint and gives some kind of protection in assaults. Also allow jumpsuits to escape assault, moving up to 6" in the movement phase (doctrine? Hardpoint?) and shoot.
2) Different levels of Aun. From Au´os to the Au´las (Allowing for themed defense armies, when no Fire caste mebers are around and the Aun have to stand their own ground).
3) Increased max unit size for Gun drones, plus same rule as grots: Confer a cover save, but for each wound prevented by that save a drone is destroyed.
4) Alternate weapons for stealth suits.

rogula
20-05-2005, 01:31
ahh yes, but fire warriors are the main part of the tau army, so there should be quite a few of them! often you see large armies with 2 ~9 strong squads, 12+ crisis suits, and 2 hammer heads and 3 braodsides...

an army should have a resonable amount of ist basic troop, currently this is not the case, as FW are not that usefull, and crisis suits are!

the tau are far from broken, but they have flaws in their list,

I usually have 3 FW squads (12 man) in a 2000 pt game, 2 in 1000 or 2000 pt games... and usually at least 1 max sized squad of kroot with hounds... then the rest of the army fluctuates....

I used my FW as static fire lines (in 3rd ed) but now I think I need to by some more Devil fish and start using mobile fire lines. I played a game a while back with some proxy Devil Fish and used the mobile fire line idea and it worked. It was a longer game (7 turns) but my opponent was only able to assault 1 of the 3 FW squads...

Captain Stuart
20-05-2005, 04:26
Wow. I usually take 48 or 60 FCW. I didn't realize people tended to play so suit heavy.

The Tau just need some brush ups.

FCW can get photons. I wouldn't mind them changing the rules to match the stealth suits, but then what would the stealth suits have?

Pathfinders can potentially give BS5 to a unit. The problem is most people rarely take them. I think it is the required Devilfish that is the issue. The Pathfinders should be a good unit to take with a small squad size given the current markerlight rules. The Devilfish requirement discourages this though.

Make drones wargear and I think the issues with attached drones goes away.

Samoth
20-05-2005, 08:06
A veteran tau commando squad would be cool, giving them things like infiltrate, railrifles/more than half pulse carbines etc. The problem is justifying it in the fluff. A unit that is "on the line"? But why would they waste time training with weapons like rail rifles, or skills like infiltrate, when they are going to be jumping in a suit of crisis armour soon?

I dont think we'll see it, at least without a ****-weak fluff explanation.

Mobile artillery, either some sort of indirect-sub railgun, or mass seeker barrages, would be very cool and very fluffy.

Plaguebeast
20-05-2005, 08:51
Personally, the Tau are pretty balanced overall. True, they probably need a few tweaks here and there, but ruleswise, I'm relatively happy. What they do need is a little more variety - maybe some auxiliary units (although I wouldn't want them turning into the DoW of 40K) - I would like to see the Nicassar, although from what I've heard, they are hidden from the Imperium, so I doubt they will be released. As for models, well, I'd rather the current range was kept - the thought of having to buy new battlesuits ( I know I wouldn't be compelled to, but as is often the case these days, the old models just can't compare).

Plaguebeast

Rich
20-05-2005, 08:53
A veteran tau commando squad would be cool, giving them things like infiltrate, railrifles/more than half pulse carbines etc. The problem is justifying it in the fluff. A unit that is "on the line"? But why would they waste time training with weapons like rail rifles, or skills like infiltrate, when they are going to be jumping in a suit of crisis armour soon?

I dont think we'll see it, at least without a ****-weak fluff explanation.

Mobile artillery, either some sort of indirect-sub railgun, or mass seeker barrages, would be very cool and very fluffy.

I agree, it would be hard to justify that kind of veteran unit in the fluff when the Tau have not really fought any major battles yet (by major battles I mean against titans etc.) - apart from the damocles crusade, the Tau have mostly faced small, badly defended human colonies rather than full blown hive worlds or a concerted human defence effort. I think a better direction to go in re. new units would be anti-nid stuff - after all, the Tau are probably about to be eaten alive by the critters.....

Castigator
20-05-2005, 09:28
I agree, it would be hard to justify that kind of veteran unit in the fluff when the Tau have not really fought any major battles yet (by major battles I mean against titans etc.) - apart from the damocles crusade, the Tau have mostly faced small, badly defended human colonies rather than full blown hive worlds or a concerted human defence effort. I think a better direction to go in re. new units would be anti-nid stuff - after all, the Tau are probably about to be eaten alive by the critters.....



Well, besides, Fluff-wise the Tau would likely seek help in technical solutions, not in advanced training of the troops.

So more in line would be all kinda nifty Anti 'nid Guns, Anti-Ork Guns, etc.., taken into the Battle by the same old Fire Warriors.

Aurelien
20-05-2005, 10:54
A veteran tau commando squad would be cool, giving them things like infiltrate, railrifles/more than half pulse carbines etc. The problem is justifying it in the fluff. A unit that is "on the line"? But why would they waste time training with weapons like rail rifles, or skills like infiltrate, when they are going to be jumping in a suit of crisis armour soon?

I dont think we'll see it, at least without a ****-weak fluff explanation.

I disagree. Remembering that the Aun like to limit the supply of Battlesuits to combat the psychosis, and I'm certain that there are areas that battlesuits do not operate effectively. For example in a heavily urbanised area, like a hive. I think battlesuits are too large to operate effectively in room to room fighting.

I dont believe the Tau would limit themselves to saying "Because we have always fought in battlesuits, we will continue to do so!" if a team of veterans on foot would do a better job.

Of course, Said veterans might indeed fight in battlesuits, a smaller version than even stealthsuits. Perhaps merely a harness/exoskeleton to carry power cells and targeing information



Mobile artillery, either some sort of indirect-sub railgun, or mass seeker barrages, would be very cool and very fluffy.

I dont think artillery in the usual sense fits with the Tau way of war. Its far too imprecise. Perhaps a larger verison of a Smart Missile System, wth the small blast template. Longer range, better strength and Ap (6/4?).

If it scatters, I'm not interested.

I for one would like to see Second Generation Gue'vesa'la. Options to give the full squad pulse rifles/carbines, and a devilish. I tihnk think the industrial capacity to arm them with lasguns is a waste of time, (though if they were not fully trusted when they first arrived, being second generation should help that.) and creating a chimera certainly is. I mean, they can be given EMP grenades, and a couple can be given pulse rifle? If two, why not more?

Also, I'd like more fast attack options, as opposed to gun drones and pathfinders. I take pathfinder with railrifles, but they arent particularily useful I find, and gundrones I only take because there is little else. I'm not sure what though (I'm not a fan of the tetra and...whatever the other one is.)

XaNder
20-05-2005, 15:18
Well, besides, Fluff-wise the Tau would likely seek help in technical solutions, not in advanced training of the troops.

Why? (see Imperial Fists greeting in Tau Codex)

As for what would be nice -in my opinion- think of a close quarter entrenchment eradicating vehicle. Something with 13 front AV with a heavy flamers and burst cannons or fusion blasters or smart missiles as options.
XaN
BTW: you made me post an OT :angel:

Venerable Dred
20-05-2005, 15:42
Actually I am surprised that no one mentioned the FCW support option that can be used by the Tau in Epic.


FCW squads with a leader equipped with a Markerlight could purchase an Off-Board Seeker Missile. This would require very little rules-wise and no model.

Even if such an option cost the same points as for the Vehicluar mounted versions (10pts I think), it would not be a cheap option (pts for Squad Leader upgrade + pts for Markerlight + Off-Board Seeker Missile + optional Hardwired Target Lock). Further, I would limit it to one Off-Board Seeker Missile per FCW squad.


Personally I would like to see more Drone and suit options/weapons.


I realize that it is a FW model, but I would also really like the option to swap a Heavy Gun Drone for two regular Gun Drones attached to Drone Controller.

boogle
20-05-2005, 16:42
i'm really hoping for the drones as i love using drones, i would also like to see them not count towards the amount of casualties that force a moral check especially on Suits as they are wargear after all

cailus
21-05-2005, 14:05
Well I guess the Tau should get a "bring-em-around-for-the-greater-good-of-the-galaxy" propaganda Unit thats basically a hovercraft with a big speakers that rants along a never-ending litany on "eternal prosperity and peace in the galaxy under the benevolent guidance of the Tau" and some oversized screens that show pictures of happy aliens dancing under rainbowcolored skys.

Than every enemy unit should be required to make Leadership tests every single time they actually want to shoot or charge anything other than the mobile Tau-Prosperity-for-all-if-you-just-listen commercial wagon.

This is a great idea. In fact it'd tie in with people's requests for more variety in drones.

Basically a cool idea would be a propaganda drone that forces enemy units to incur some sort of leadership/moral penalty. Perhaps of a unit with a propaganda drone causes casualties on an enemy unit, then the enemy unit suffers a -1 leadership penalty.

I know this wouldn't work in terms of fluff regarding some races (e.g. nids and necrons). However there are many units that don't follow fluff (Necron Flayed Ones, Slaneesh Warp Scream etc).

t-tauri
21-05-2005, 14:31
There is a problem trying psychological warfare in a Universe where even the most well adjusted of races could best be described as deranged psychopaths. :)
About the only people rational enough to be targets for psychological warfare are the Tau and even there the Ethereals are up to something unnatural.

GreatWolf
23-05-2005, 16:10
Gotta love the Forgeworld Tau additions!!

Nurglitch_PS
23-05-2005, 16:48
GW will never include FW models into the main range

Why not? After all the tanks from FW are perfectly usable in the AC list.

Venerable Dred
23-05-2005, 18:53
Why not? After all the tanks from FW are perfectly usable in the AC list.
True enough, except that the AC list is currently only a Trial/Experimental List that was published in WD and is not a list that can be found in any offical Codex.

Nurglitch_PS
23-05-2005, 19:08
True enough, except that the AC list is currently only a Trial/Experimental List that was published in WD and is not a list that can be found in any offical Codex.

It was not in any way experimental - it has been published as Chapter Approved, which means it is legal to play - including many tournaments.

synapse
24-05-2005, 13:42
i remember reading something about the designers wanting to make different drones, such as medic drones and so on when the codex came out though space and/or time limitations meant they couldnt do so. perhaps these might crop up in the revised book.
personally, apart from rules tweaks to make the army more playable i dont really think that they need anything, apart from perhaps a small vehicles similar (probably smaller even) that a landspeeder, or maybe a true artillery tank. oh, and i just hate the suit models (stealth excepted) and would love new plastic ones similar to the FW ones.

Samoth
24-05-2005, 14:31
When I said tau commando's arent justifiable in the fluff - it's because usually the tau that survive the trial by fire (after their 4 years as basic shasla grunts) they become shas'ui, and get a battle suit. Sure, it could be that instead of being armed with suits, they become a foot based veteran squad, but they wouldn't need such things. Stealth teams and kroot do fine for commando missions, and for room to room fighting, they have the kroot, battle suits with flamers, and, if you dont need the building - lots of big guns.

Warlord Gnashgrod
24-05-2005, 15:17
i just hate the suit models (stealth excepted) and would love new plastic ones similar to the FW ones.

The only real problem I myself have with the suits is the extremely thin/weak ankles. Especially for the Broadsides.

It was a really 'smart' idea GW to make such weak, easily breakable ankles on a model that uses so much pewter. Did you do that intentionally, so that they would break, and cause people to need to buy new ones? Great way to be loyal to your customers. NOTE: extreme sarcasm in last statement. ;)

Zabuza
25-05-2005, 00:34
The only thing I don't like about the Crissis suits are the heads. The heads on the forgeworld models look awesome, but I don't like the blockyness of the GW version.

-Zabuza-

Artemis_Quinn
25-05-2005, 02:36
Something I'd love to see them do with the codex is maybe make the army list a little more interactive by having the player choose a homeworld (maybe out of a choice of three) and that shapes what choices are for your army (or the generic list, the other lists would be optional to provide added character and storyline to a tau army). Like in one list pathfinders count as troops, maybe another Kroot are more favored and in another still have a veteran army where crisis suits with lighter armaments can be taken as fast attack or something. Just a thought.
Also, I'd like to see the kroot get an elites choice, like a shaper council or a vultures squad. And lastly, I'd like more gun drone varients actually in the book. Not in some chapter approved but in the book where it is clearly printed with all pof the rest of the rules for the army and I don't have to flip through three different things to find what i'm looking for.

Keichi246
25-05-2005, 14:50
Something I'd love to see them do with the codex is maybe make the army list a little more interactive by having the player choose a homeworld (maybe out of a choice of three) and that shapes what choices are for your army (or the generic list, the other lists would be optional to provide added character and storyline to a tau army). Like in one list pathfinders count as troops, maybe another Kroot are more favored and in another still have a veteran army where crisis suits with lighter armaments can be taken as fast attack or something. Just a thought.

AAARGH!

No - please no Sept rules/Traits for the Tau!

There is no NEED for them - and there are many “fluff” reasons NOT to do it.

I will say my reasons against them.

1) the Tau are a very small race - their empire has barely existed for a long period of time. There hasn't been TIME for the septs to differentiate significantly. Thus -there is no internal impetus for variation.
2) the Tau have a VERY powerful force trying to AVOID differentiation - namely the Ethereals. The Ethereals do not want separatist forces occurring in their empire - the entire purpose of the Tau empire is everyone working *together* for the greater good. Sept differentiation encourages a feeling of "us vs them" which leads down the path to the Mon'Tau.
3) Different Sept/Trait type rules encourage players to min-max and attempt to find the "best" rules - and generally they do find them. This leads to cries of cheese, beardiness and other unpleasantness. The Tau have enough problems from opponents.

I know everyone wants to customize their army a little - but there are plenty of ways of doing it WITHOUT variant Sept rules. Yes - different septs may have slightly different fighting styles and suit configurations. Give us a few paragraphs about them - and make it so you can build that variation from the basic list if you want it. But make sure ALL the lists use the same basic core list, with the same basic choices. Don’t let certain units get “upgraded” or add unusual amounts, or anything like that. Don't make the same mistake as Craftworld Eldar - where several lists became overpowered and became the basis of the numerous complaints about the race.

Think about it - Would the Ethereals really allow it? It has already been said that they keep battlesuit production DOWN because battlesuits encourage independent thought and action - and start leading the pilots in improper thought patterns - "Battlesuit Neurosis" (White Dwarf US263, Crisis suit Tactica - first page. The one that describes the various sept suit configurations) In that same article, they indicate that most things about the Tau Army ARE standardized - Stealth teams, Broadsides etc - to maximize efficiency.

Space Marines didn't "need" a trait system - but it was a good solution to the "chapter of the month" problem. Imperial Guard didn't "need" a trait solution - but it fit a need for differentiating the many, many, guard regiments in the universe. Each of those armies have had HUNDREDS of "organizations" and at least a dozen different rules sets for them. Many of them "in fluff" can trace unit organization back to before the Tau became spacefaring race. Of course they have long a glorious histories - and doctrines because of it. This is a case where a square peg fits a square hole. It is a good solution to a problem GW has had for a long time.

The Tau *don't* need trait system. The very philosophy of the Tau is that everyone works *together* for the benefit of all. Information is shared among the septs so that all may gain the benefit of any new advances. The Ethereals are actively trying to PREVENT any forces that could be used to divide the empire. So far - there are only two Tau variants - Farsight and "normal". Commander Farsight is an exception - he has lived a very unusual amount of time for a Tau. He has also fallen outside the sway of the Ethereals. The Ethereals are being REAL cautious now about how much power any non- ethereal can gather (referencing the novel "Kill Team")

Let every other race have their traits, doctrines, craftworlds, tribes, marks, whatever.

Let the elegant simplicity of the Tau - a young race striving together with their allies against a hostile universe - stand alone. Give us one basic list, a list with multiple chices per force org slot, a list with every unit good at a well defined role - and it will make a far better representation of the Tau than any trait system possibly could. If you want to play a representative of a certain sept - fine - make up your own fluff. But there *doesn't* need to be rules differentiating them.

Simply put - there is no need for a sept trait system. The Ethereals would not allow it for practical reasons within their empire.

Just say NO to sept traits!!!!

(Sorry - I feel very strongly about this - from both a player AND a fluff standpoint. Fluffwise -the Ethereals won't allow it. Playerwise - I LIKE the difference being a "standardized army" forces upon the Tau. Everyone else gets to play with traits and choices, etc. The Tau have an army - standardized equipment, intellegently designed equipment and tactics, firepower.)

Sorry for the rant..

Dave Gaidasz

TaintedSpam
25-05-2005, 15:24
Ahhhh... Fluff... There's 40k fluff and the 40k game... Never shall they meet.

Cloudscape_online
25-05-2005, 15:42
Hello tainted spam!! I tried to e-mail you, but I gues I'll have to do it here:

That is one cool name, how did you think it up? E-mail me the answer, ok?

As for Tau... I agree very much with Keichi on this. They are communists (commie scum, :p )

Derling
25-05-2005, 17:41
1) the Tau are a very small race - their empire has barely existed for a long period of time. There hasn't been TIME for the septs to differentiate significantly. Thus -there is no internal impetus for variation.



no impetus for variation... like, for example, a caste system? ;-P



2) the Tau have a VERY powerful force trying to AVOID differentiation - namely the Ethereals. The Ethereals do not want separatist forces occurring in their empire - the entire purpose of the Tau empire is everyone working *together* for the greater good. Sept differentiation encourages a feeling of "us vs them" which leads down the path to the Mon'Tau.


kinda like a caste system might ;-P




3) Different Sept/Trait type rules encourage players to min-max and attempt to find the "best" rules - and generally they do find them. This leads to cries of cheese, beardiness and other unpleasantness. The Tau have enough problems from opponents.



I agree with this, soon enough we'll see that 90% of all Tau players jump on the Tau'n list because it gives a free ballistic skill increase to the new "Black fire warriors" and has the dread Ethereal council. The only restiction for the sublist is that you may only field 1 unit of drone squadrons for every squad of fire warriors you put on the table. ;-)




I know everyone wants to customize their army a little - but there are plenty of ways of doing it WITHOUT variant Sept rules. Yes - different septs may have slightly different fighting styles and suit configurations. Give us a few paragraphs about them - and make it so you can build that variation from the basic list if you want it. But make sure ALL the lists use the same basic core list, with the same basic choices. Don’t let certain units get “upgraded” or add unusual amounts, or anything like that. Don't make the same mistake as Craftworld Eldar - where several lists became overpowered and became the basis of the numerous complaints about the race.




This is where I think you make a really good point. This point could actually extend itself to most army lists. Make the list encompassing enough that it can replicate any variation on a theme without necesarilly making sublists for them.

I do think that at the moment, there is no good way to produce sept traits. I certainly haven't seen a suggestion I'd ever go for, as they tend to be copies of existing trait/doctrine systems, which I think is a bad idea.


Waaagh, for the Emperor, and Blood for the Blood god...

in the Tau language there is no word for "phase out".

Creamy Goodness
25-05-2005, 19:41
Frankly I'd see sept traits as an inevitable consequence of any revised Tau list. It follows in the GW trend of making armies more customizable without having to do any more, you know, sculpting. Why make a deep and flexible army list for each race, when you can just make up some naffy rules that kinda make forces different. Eldar have craftworlds, SM's have chapters, Tau will have septs. :p


Are the tetras and that other FW one (name?) a shoo-in for a new 'dex?

Jahrael
25-05-2005, 19:49
Are the tetras and that other FW one (name?) a shoo-in for a new 'dex?
Not likely in anything but the Forge World Imperial Armor Volume 3 the Taros Campaign.

name?=Piranha

Derling
25-05-2005, 20:30
Frankly I'd see sept traits as an inevitable consequence of any revised Tau list. It follows in the GW trend of making armies more customizable without having to do any more, you know, sculpting. Why make a deep and flexible army list for each race, when you can just make up some naffy rules that kinda make forces different. Eldar have craftworlds, SM's have chapters, Tau will have septs. :p



I dunno, but I guess you'd know more about it than I would! Let's hope they are SOOPER COOL!

I'm going to speciallize in LD 10 water caste diplomats who have the special rule:

convert: Prior to the start of the game, but after units have been deployed a Tau army containing water caste diplomats may choose to peruade the opposing force to join their the Tau empire and fight for the greater good. A water caste diplomat makes a successfull Leadership test, the other army is sufficiently persuaded and the game does not continue. The Tau player may pack up the oppponent's army, take it home, and post it on Ebay.

Shalamar
25-05-2005, 20:36
I dunno, but I guess you'd know more about it than I would! Let's hope they are SOOPER COOL!

I'm going to speciallize in LD 10 water caste diplomats who have the special rule:

convert: Prior to the start of the game, but after units have been deployed a Tau army containing water caste diplomats may choose to peruade the opposing force to join their the Tau empire and fight for the greater good. A water caste diplomat makes a successfull Leadership test, the other army is sufficiently persuaded and the game does not continue. The Tau player may pack up the oppponent's army, take it home, and post it on Ebay.

Now THATS a rule. But I can hear the crys of cheese already. Imagine at a tournament. :p

Zabuza
25-05-2005, 23:34
Lol. I love it.

night2501
26-05-2005, 03:50
back one the topic...
I think a trait system for tau is not against the fluff, but focus the traits on sept is out of place, tau prefer tecnical solution ad plan very carefull each mision, this lead to specialisation to do some tasks...
so traits focus on finer specialisation for the army for a given task should be right...things like jungle fight (the army recived special training for fighting in jungle enviroment, but the hamerhead devilfish and similar are restricted), or nightfigh (almost the whole army and his uncle can take blaksunsun filter), or weapon testing regiment (the army is to field tet new weapons and similars), assault/recognicement regiment (take ne pathfinder as core, FW can take all carabines, must take sensor spines in all vehicles, crisis restricted).
and things ligt that, or maibe even softer, that could customise the army folowing the bakground withouth changing the army too much and hardly unbalancing the list ^^

Creamy Goodness
26-05-2005, 13:55
I dunno, but I guess you'd know more about it than I would! Let's hope they are SOOPER COOL!

I'm going to speciallize in LD 10 water caste diplomats who have the special rule:

convert: Prior to the start of the game, but after units have been deployed a Tau army containing water caste diplomats may choose to peruade the opposing force to join their the Tau empire and fight for the greater good. A water caste diplomat makes a successfull Leadership test, the other army is sufficiently persuaded and the game does not continue. The Tau player may pack up the oppponent's army, take it home, and post it on Ebay.


A fine proposal. All in the name of The Greater Good, of course. ;)

my_name_is_tudor
26-05-2005, 15:37
Have we any dates, (specific or general) for the release of the Taros book?

I seem to remember hearing mention of this summer, am I right?

personaly I think we will be seeing more drones, and mainly weapon improvements, I mean, think about it, if the Tau have a technical problem, they fix it, therefore:

- they might get rid of the gets hot! on railrifles

- they might slightly increase the ranges of things (afterall, the pulse rifle was the first (and only?) 30" range weapon and perhaps other bits of weapon stat lines.

- and can crisis suits currently take two of the same gun? (not twin linked), because if not, why not? they have access to multitrackers..

PS: I would also like to see the battlesuit heads get SMALLER, they dont have to change design, just shrink them so that they mate with the artwork and dont look do big and cartoony. also, to do this youd have to make the neck ring bit wider, so the head sort of sat inside it, a bit like the head-hole in a suit of power armour.

rkunisch
26-05-2005, 16:38
The last Forge World newsletter mentioned that the book is about ready to go to the printer. I think you will see it definitely this summer. :p

Have fun,

Rolf.

Sai-Lauren
26-05-2005, 17:23
Why not? After all the tanks from FW are perfectly usable in the AC list.
Because GW is focused on what they can sell through the stores, and the stores simply don't have space to carry a significant amount of FW product.
Plus the infamous target demographic doesn't really have the patience or know-how to build resin kit properly, so they'd be getting a lot of complaints about how much money was being dropped on them from irate parents.

What I'd expect to see in a new Tau list.
Railrifles (well duh ;))

Modified rules for drones, with some new types (say a markerlight drone, a medical drone, a drone to help in defending assaults - perhaps it allows the controller to withdraw from combat, but must stay behind itself - and maybe a few others).

Kais from Fire Warrior as a special character

Expansion on the Kroot, and possibly a couple of new auxiliaries (maybe one restricted unit of Guev'sla or however it's spelt, and possibly one of Demiurg) - released as tasters.

A couple of new weapons.

Maybe an expansion of the numbers of pulse carbines Fire Warriors are allowed in a squad.

Sept traits seem a possibility, but I think they'd be very minor changes rather than the larger one of say guard doctrines or chapter traits. Maybe each trait allows a new option to the fire warrior and/or pathfinder squads, and restricts some generic ones (like a sept from the edge of Tau space wouldn't be allowed Rail rifles because they've not had chance to train on them).

I like the idea of an indirect emp weapon, although I think it could get a little out of hand if you were allowed multiples, or if it was too powerful.


I'm going to speciallize in LD 10 water caste diplomats who have the special rule:

convert: Prior to the start of the game, but after units have been deployed a Tau army containing water caste diplomats may choose to peruade the opposing force to join their the Tau empire and fight for the greater good. A water caste diplomat makes a successfull Leadership test, the other army is sufficiently persuaded and the game does not continue. The Tau player may pack up the oppponent's army, take it home, and post it on Ebay.
Class :D

geoffkemp
27-05-2005, 10:12
I pretty much agree with the points made.
Drones need fixing.

Though perhaps extra models, in the shape of upgrades for the fire warriors unit (maybe BS weapons one per unit).

Also an Ethereal bodyguard wouldn`t go a miss either. perhasp 3 to 6 fire warrior champions and some unit upgrades like the Inquistion have.

And an Infantry Fire Warrior commander, again with an uprate FW unit as a body guard.

my_name_is_tudor
27-05-2005, 13:23
something I'd like, that I think is quite feasible and would go down well, is just some alternative ethereal models

at the moment we have 3, ones hard to get unless you got it in the first place (I had one once, but sold it, then the guy moved to australia, so I can't get it back (he doesnt play anymore)), ones the standard one, looks good, but one unusual pose - not bad, just unusual, means that not many small conversions can be done to make it look different from the next player's, and the last one is aun'shi, whos showing a little too much skin for my liking, tau dont strike me as the type to dive around with no pants on.

think about how many space marine commander models there were prior to the plastic kit, and how many farseer models there are, and how many chaos lords, and so on, I say some alternative metal etherals would go down well, just one or two, so that we can do some more varied conversions...

Scythe
27-05-2005, 18:49
Well, tau are a relative new race, while the armies mentioned have been around for ages. That said, I believe there are only a few eldar farseers directly available as well; the older ones have to be ordered. In time, tau will get some new ethereals.

Crube
27-05-2005, 19:30
What I'd expect to see in a new Tau list.
Railrifles (well duh ;))



Kais from Fire Warrior as a special character



A couple of new weapons.




Rail Rifles and Kais I believe are a given, A couple of new weapons I'm not so sure about. I know there was a real hoo - ha in the studio over the Rail Rifles when Fire Warrior was released, especially as the basic (first draft) rules were written by KUJU, FW's developers...

alterion
27-05-2005, 21:07
hmm how about some kind of tau attack bike sorta like the star wars ones .. except tauified.. dunno if it is needed but would be a cool unit to be given to stealth teams or something

rogula
27-05-2005, 21:44
hmm how about some kind of tau attack bike sorta like the star wars ones .. except tauified.. dunno if it is needed but would be a cool unit to be given to stealth teams or something

Checkout FW... kind of already exist...

Lost Primarch
29-05-2005, 18:28
The only things I would like to see is...

- Drone rules modified to make them viable additions to battlesuits again
- Shas'vre BS upgraded to 4
- Possibly a fast vehicle, similar to tetras or a medium Hammerhead-like tank (with an Ion cannon!)
- Firewarrior minimum squad size increased to 8 (to be fair)

Warlord Gnashgrod
29-05-2005, 18:56
The only things I would like to see is...

- Drone rules modified to make them viable additions to battlesuits again
- Shas'vre BS upgraded to 4
- Possibly a fast vehicle, similar to tetras or a medium Hammerhead-like tank (with an Ion cannon!)
- Firewarrior minimum squad size increased to 8 (to be fair)

These are good. I would also like to see:

-a few more wargear options, done as drones would be a good idea.
-Kroot hounds and Krootox no longer taking up force organization slots. Have them just work like special/heavy weapon upgrades.
-Having the Devilfish be an option for the pathfinders instead of mandatory.
-Broadsides having the 'slow and purposeful' rule.
-some protective options for the Ethereal, other than drones or squad joining.

I doubt all of these would be done, but it would be nice to see some of them. They could improve the Tau army significantly.

boogle
29-05-2005, 19:21
2 out of 5 could be close

Negafex
29-05-2005, 21:10
i wlould personally like to see all batle suits and stealth suits have bs4, its like the tau made good guns and never learned to use them. and it seems like the battlesuits sensors and stealth suits sensors would compensate for their unnervingly bad aim and give them BS4
because in my opinion 60-70 pts is a lot for something without a 2+ sv or bs4

Flame Boy
29-05-2005, 21:31
I agree that it would be nice to have multiple ways to get Pathfinders into the field. They could be deployed by Grav Chute from Orcas, surely? This would help them get behind enemy lines and scout things out, and they wouldn't be trying to sneak around subtly and convince the enemy that a VTOL-engined apc isn't floating right behind them...

Plaguebeast
30-05-2005, 04:50
Disclaimer: I know the BFG fluff states that the Nicassar are unsuitable for ground combat, and that they are trying to be kept a secret from the Imperium, however, I think they could be the anti-assault unit that players have mentioned.

Essentially, they could ride in psychically driven 'platform' (for want of a better word) outfitted with a Tau jet pack tech. They would have no weapons as such, and would use defensive psychic powers to confuse and trick enemy units preparing to assault the Tau. There are a number of problems with this though: Is too much like the Slann in Fantasy? Is it compensating too much for a weakness? Would it even be worth taking?

Plaguebeast

Warlord Gnashgrod
30-05-2005, 15:53
in my opinion 60-70 pts is a lot for something without a 2+ sv or bs4


Not to mention that there a considerable limit to how many you can have in an army, as compared to Fire Warriors.

Zabuza
30-05-2005, 17:31
Indeed. Maybe Battlesuits could have an upgrade available that ups their BS to 4? Like the Hammerhead?

-Zabuza-

Scythe
30-05-2005, 19:08
Upgrade at most (costing a hard point, so no multi-tracker). Not as a basic stat. I am a fan of BS 4 on Shas'Vre tough. Would make them stand out and viable.

Zabuza
30-05-2005, 19:22
Also, would it be too much to see Stealthsuits upgraded to toughness4? They are, after all, wearing battlesuits.

-Zabuza-

Scythe
30-05-2005, 19:25
Hmm, they got a 3+ save. And also think of the flip side; T4 would make the already expensive and quite fragile 1 wound stealth suit cost even more pts.

Zabuza
30-05-2005, 19:26
True. What about an extra wound then?

Hoshi No Koe
31-05-2005, 00:45
I think the Tau list is mostly good as it is. I'm not in to changing any of the suits as I think they all work great as it is. Especially not the BS 4 thing, crisis and stealth suits are already very good at what they do, even though the targetting tech argument makes sense, its really a game balance thing. Upping their BS would only make them even more expensive and make opponents cry cheese too much.
However, I do think the Shas'vre should have BS 4, to account for their experience fluffwise but mostly to give you a reason to take them in the first place gameswise.
Other things I'd like to see is indeed different ways to deploy Pathfinders, especially giving them the option to infiltrate would make sense. I have nothing against them operating from a DF from a fluff point of view as I picture more as battlefield scouts and well "pathfinders" than deep infiltrators like stealthsuits but in some situation they should be able to infiltrate IMO, albeit at a certain points cost. Failing that, the scouts rule (which I believe they already have) and the ability to have the free 6" move before the game would be okay with me. Just as long as you don't always need to take a DF, in order to be able to deploy in smaller games.
A fix to the current way the drones work when taken as an upgrade, right they're mostly a downside in most circumstances.

Apart from that, a new unit or two is always welcome, especially if they introduce new races to the 40k universe. Would also be fun to be able to make an army consisting only of auxiliaries of all types, like described in the second last chancer novel. Another variant would be an all Jetpack elite army, though I don't know how playable that would be, or how fun to play against.

My last wish would be to see a good variant list and more fluff on the Farsight enclaves, which to me, is the most interesting part of the Tau fluff.

Xisor
31-05-2005, 03:59
I just had inspiration:

'Aun'va'

The Ethereal 'Team' (work on a better translation someone...)

Basically, similar to an Inquisitor's retinue, but perhaps can be dispersed among the army, not just one squad, but one FO Chart....


Pick 0-5 of the following(other limits could be added as desired)

Kroot Strike Shaper(gifts infiltration to the squad he joins)

Kroot Bodyguard(a slightly beefy kroot who gets Drazhars 'guard' rule, pick the character they protect)

Demiurg Battle Surveyor(Allows a unit of Demiurg Automata to be deployed? Can interface easily with Kor'vesa giving boosts such as +1BS/WS and +2 Ld?)

Demiurg Plotter(Uses the nearby capital ships to high effect, perhaps allow a variant of Orbital Bombarment[a Disintegrator effect with mortar rules?])

Demiurg Facilitator(Uses comm-uplink to nearby vessels to Teleport unit(s) about the battlefield, Veil of Darkness Style? Different again?)

Gue'vesa'vre(Medic? Perhaps humans are particularly well suited to dealing with alien medicine given time and training)

Gue'vesa'mont(Similar to a Sanctioned Psyker?)

Mostly they will be deployed with Firewarrior, Pathfinder, Drone or Kroot Squads where appropriate. In a similar vein, other possible squads could be included in this list, veteran 'shas'ui' squads in firewarrior armour perhaps?

Xisor

Delicious Soy
31-05-2005, 05:21
Okay, haven't read the thread but I'll throw out some stuff:

- Ability to put commanders on foot or in different battlesuits.

- Some sort of targeter to give +1 to hit, takes a hardpoint on a suit.

- Burstcannons in FW squads, or a smaller FW squad with them and pulse carbines.

- I like the retinue idea for the etheral but they should be mostly Tau, makes for a good opportunity to portray the othe castes.

- More empire auxilaries, a human and a demiurg squad would be interesting.

- Perhaps throw in an updated Kroot merc army, or incorporate elements from it into the Tau list.

- More drones. Heavier gun drones and spotter drones spring to mind.

Upgrade the background. GW sorta failed to show that the Tau were not the unambiguous 'good guys' that many seem to think they are. The more sinister elements of Tau society need to be mentioned or at least sort out the distinction between Tau and other races in the empire politically.

Rich
31-05-2005, 08:50
Okay, haven't read the thread but I'll throw out some stuff:

- Ability to put commanders on foot or in different battlesuits.

- Some sort of targeter to give +1 to hit, takes a hardpoint on a suit.

- Burstcannons in FW squads, or a smaller FW squad with them and pulse carbines.

- I like the retinue idea for the etheral but they should be mostly Tau, makes for a good opportunity to portray the othe castes.

- More empire auxilaries, a human and a demiurg squad would be interesting.

- Perhaps throw in an updated Kroot merc army, or incorporate elements from it into the Tau list.

- More drones. Heavier gun drones and spotter drones spring to mind.

Upgrade the background. GW sorta failed to show that the Tau were not the unambiguous 'good guys' that many seem to think they are. The more sinister elements of Tau society need to be mentioned or at least sort out the distinction between Tau and other races in the empire politically.

I actually agree with pretty much all of this. There are no major rules changes (upgrading BS and the like) and nothing that looks particularly unfluffy.

The only addition i would make (and one that has been mentioned countless times before) is the ability to take pathfinder squads without a devil fish - as essentially scouts, it has always rankled me as to how they are supposed to remain discrete with a large APV in tow. Fair enough, mechanised formations would have scout tanks like the salamander, but the devilfish is not a scout tak by any means - and its addition makes pathfinder squads much more expensive.

Different drone 'classes' and weights is a good idea, and allows things like the burst cannon equipped drones to be viable - the Tau are not quite as happy to throw away their trooper's lives as the Imperium, and this should be reflected by their use of mechanical soldiers.

The bodyguards for ethereals is another good idea, although it has to be said that they would be of limited value except as a meat shield.

alterion
31-05-2005, 09:00
yar spotter dornes would be a bvery good unit but darn frustrating to play against i would imagine

Tenoch
31-05-2005, 09:44
This might be very wishful thinking, but what I would like to see, is increased amalgamation of the kroot list, with the possibility of taking an all kroot army list as an appendix, thus updating the current kroot merc army list.

Rich
31-05-2005, 10:17
This might be very wishful thinking, but what I would like to see, is increased amalgamation of the kroot list, with the possibility of taking an all kroot army list as an appendix, thus updating the current kroot merc army list.

In many ways this would make sence in any case - lets face it, the Tau are known to use armies of auxillaries in larger battles with hunter cadres acting as a mobile reserve. It makes sence that the codex should therefore include the option to represent one of these forces.

Negafex
31-05-2005, 17:59
" Some sort of targeter to give +1 to hit, takes a hardpoint on a suit."- Delicious soy

i really like that idea and think battle suits and stealth suits both need the option, im really sick of having a full stealth squad and only making 5-9 on the to hit roll

TaintedSpam
31-05-2005, 18:24
" Some sort of targeter to give +1 to hit, takes a hardpoint on a suit."- Delicious soy

i really like that idea and think battle suits and stealth suits both need the option, im really sick of having a full stealth squad and only making 5-9 on the to hit roll

As much as I *DROOL* with the idea of BS4 on Stealth Suits, it ain't gunna happen. The most reasonable request I've heard for BS4 would be Shas'Vre upgrades, which no one ever takes. (+10 points for +1 WS, I, and access to upgrades? Sure! NOT!)

erion
31-05-2005, 18:39
My tau Wish list:

--Pathfinder devilfish optional instead of mandatory.
--Fix Drones as parts of other squads. Make them always count as the majority and not count as part of the squad for the purposes of leadership checks.
--Allow the Shas'o and Shas'el to start as a fire warrior on foot and give them either stealth, crisis, or Broadside suit Upgrades as wargear.
--More Wargear Options for Shas'ui, Shas'vre, Shas'o and Shas'el in any of the squads.
--More Drone Types. Scanner drones that allow the unit controlling them to automatically pass leadership checks for target priority. Support Weapon Drones that allow a squad to field one of the normally crisis-suit mounted weapons (It's not like we don't have oodles of those bitz layng around for conversions anyway). Close Combat drones with whirling blades that spin around their outside edges. They fight so Tau don't have to.
-- A Seeker Artillery Unit. Work the same as seekers do now, but you get a barrage instead of the seeker missile vehicle upgrade. Immobile. I'm Thinking S5 Ap4 Blasts instead of S8 AP3 one-shots.

I had a couple of other ideas, but they're written in a notebook at home...

fracas
31-05-2005, 18:57
kroot needs an
1. standard HQ option, not just the special character
2. an elite option, with tank busting ability

a troop option for human auxillary
and heavy option for demiurge

i'd also agree with more drone options, including one that could serve to call down an artillery strike on itself (or serve as a mobile bomb)

Xisor
31-05-2005, 18:57
An obvious adendum to my Aun'va cadre:

Por Caste Representative- Basically a 'Monitoring'/Reporting Team that has a look at various aspects of the Tau in battle, partly to report back to the rest of the Empire from the front line, partly to simply have a look at the Fire Caste for everyone else and also perhaps an incentive to make sure the Firecaste don't go too far off the mark, especially with an Ethereal nearby. Don't know how it'd work ruleswise, but it's a neat idea IMO

Earth Caste Surveyor/Scientist/Analyst- kinda like a techmarine, gives a boost to the shooting/anti-armour of a squad, perhaps a signum attachment + possibility of drone/specialist drone controller to help 'augment' a squad.

Air Caste Pilot - The Ethereals 'personal' Pilot, essentially a 'quirk' Tau, perhaps a Pulse Pistol and some form of odd gadgetry.

As for other things:

Possibility of almost (if not entirely)all Kroot Armies(including the kroot merc list in the codex would be a good idea IMO, making it a bit of a bumper codex).

Rapid Reaction Upgrade for say 0-2 Firewarrior Squads? Essentially conveys the Fleet of Foot rule for a small cost by gifting the unit a few small personal booster packs.

As evidenced by the Tau in Epic, the Tau Army should be 'capable' of everything, not neccessarily 'good' at it in the way that Marines are, but the options are there, just not overpowering.

Xisor

Khaine's Messenger
31-05-2005, 19:33
If they made Pathfinders (limited, say 0-3) Troops choices, stealthsuits as Fast Attack, and a few weapon options for stealth suits, I'd be pretty happy, actually. Things like giving hardwired equipment a bionic-save option would also be a nice plus and would suit me just fine. I also wouldn't mind if they just up and made the Kroot Mercenaries and the Tau Hunter Cadres entirely seperate lists. But that (and a few other things) is just up there in "insane wishlist"-ville, which is where this thread basically started....in all honesty, I'd rather not get my hopes up. If the rail rifle is any indicator of how GW is going to handle things.... ;)

Deadnight
31-05-2005, 22:21
Things I'd like to see with tau?

Stat lines wise, in game tau bear little resemblense to the fluff.
As an example, as a shas'la goes up through the ranks, he gets increasinfly better at close combat, the antithesis of the tau! FW shas'ui-2 attacks, suit shas'vre gets a pointless extra I and WS, shas'el and shas'o get even better at it!

OK, change that element of it! Firstly, shas'vre should have ld9 and bs4 instead of the WS and I increase. then we might take bodyguards!
Secondly, if squads have a leader (FW shas'ui, suit shas'vre) they should have access to more leadership based abilities (tau codex-tau have inspiring leaders) like never count negative modifiers, or something like that.

Suits should have some new wargear - smart armour would be nice (+10 points, any wounds are ignored on a 5+ - suit repairs itself) for an example. flechette dischargers to protect against assault, targetting arrays would be another nice addition.

As well, suits need new models! Shoulder pads, helmets and possibly a new chest would be nice on crisis suits! Broadsides need a definite facelift-they are ugly!

the shas'el is fine, but the shas'o, as the tau armada warmaster should have some nice leadership based abilities - maybe a 40k version of epics co-ordinated fire or something would be appropriate.

Fire Warriors are fine- no problems but a shaepshooters drill would be neat.
kroot are fine, but krootox and kroot hounds should be unit upgrades that dont take up a HS or FA slot.

gue'vesa'la should follow the IG regimental structure-platoons would be sweet!

Pathfinders need to be revised-as they stand, their in game rules have no relevance to their fluff. the obligatory devilfish is handicapping, and unfluffy. either give it free seeker missiles, or allow the Pathfinders some new "early set up" or hidden set up rule- one full sized unit can deploy first, ahead of the rest of the cadre, and can set up 2d6" beyond the tau deployment zone (and really screw the other guys deployment!) then i'd take them! Some new markerlight guided missiles, like a plasma warhead missile would be pretty sweet.

Hammerheads are fine. they need nothing desperately. the merits of some new secondary weapons systems (twin plasmas etc) would be an interesting discussion.

gun drones need to be sropped in price for independent squadrons, and need to have their old rules re-instated, or reworked. as they are, they dont work.

carbines need to be reworked. as thry stand, they are the worst gun in the game.

Xisor
31-05-2005, 22:32
Kroot Hunters should be allowed I think as well. It's an example of the Tau finally convincing Kroot to 'abandon' their unsavoury habits and thus capable of fighting properly alongside a Tau Detatchment without major changes to the battle plan.

Reworked however...same stats, same weapons, same rules, except:

Squads are 3-5, with 1-3 Squads per FO Chart Slot. 1 Kroot per FO Chart Slot may be upgraded to a shaper. Each Squad may be upgraded with Photon Grenades at +1pt/Kroot.

It'd make them viable to be included in the list at the expense of a Hammerhead or Broadside team, no?

Xisor

Muddy
31-05-2005, 22:37
I feel that the Tau are just fine as is. No complaints can be made, from either Tau players, or Tau opponants. Tau have a fair mix of options, with powerful weapons, but average ballistic skill. The jetpacks aren't even unfair, as every army has something similar (as in, something noticably strong) and they are compensated for by having an average ballistic skill, and lack of resistance to krak missiles >.<

I do agree that more options could be presented, such as medium gun drones who carry battlesuit weapons, or hounds and krootox take up single troop choice along with kroot. I could also see battlesuits being Bs 4 by taking an upgrade similar to a vehicles targeting array, however it would have to be expensive to compensate for their extreme mobility.

One thing I would love to see is rules for inducting other races as auxilliaries. In my army I am working on converting Eldar auxilliaries (same stat line as Human Auxilliaries, just different fluff). Prehaps, for example, Eldar Aspects (or any other race for that matter) could be inducted at the expense of using battlesuit technology. The logic being, this particular hunter cadre lacks the appropriate resources (weather it be funding, experience, or just manpower) so they hire support from other races. But I cannot see this ever happening as if it did the Tau would become the next Imperium but for Xenos.. Just an idea, anyway..

As is, I personally wouldn't want to see anything changed. If anything, I would like to see more options. I certainly wouldn't want to risk the possibility of GW completely re-doing the Tau, as they could possibly lose their current flavor.

-Muds

Muddy
31-05-2005, 22:39
Oh, and another interesting idea that I forgot to mention.. Broadside Artillary Teams, They replace their Railguns with the Tau version of a mortar. Would be the equivalent of a barrage of small blast submunition rounds.. but again, I am only fantacizing..

fracas
31-05-2005, 22:53
i thought about indirect fire teams for the Tau as well but came to believe that they would prefer guided munitions rather than guesstimates indirect fires ... which lead me to think drones designed to explode, i.e smart cruise missile, would work better.

my_name_is_tudor
01-06-2005, 15:03
the idea of indirect fire for tau, and of artillery for Tau is against their fighting philosophies

1: Tau hate wasted fire, if something isn't certain to hit, then why is it in the arsenal? Thats why we have markerlight guided seekers.

2: Tau don't stand and shoot, thats what the IG do, Tau are a mobile army, flying about in devilfish and battlesuits and such. Leave dedicated Artillery to the Imperial Guard, who are much more willing to sit around getting mown down in close combat because they know they can rely on strength in numbers, and a large serving of pie-plates every shooting phase.

erion
01-06-2005, 15:58
That's why I said you'd still have to call the barrage in with a markerlight. On a 2+ it's dead on, and on a 1 it drifts as for other artillery barrages.

Zabuza
01-06-2005, 19:02
I don't know...artillery just doesn't seem like something the Tau would use. The codex says that the Tau dislike holding a static position. Which is, in effect, what artillery is.

Of course, when has GW ever paid any attention to what the fluff says?

-Zabuza-

erion
01-06-2005, 19:24
Who said anything about the artillery being static?

Rich
01-06-2005, 19:31
It's not static per se but essentially it doesnt get shifted about too much. i assume that what Zabuza means is that most of the Tau units are highly mobile, and field artillery tends not to be. It could also be argued that Tau aerial units like the manta would take over this role much as they do that of titans, supported by accurate fire from orbiting space ships.

t-tauri
01-06-2005, 20:15
Tau artillery would be just as mobile as anything else in the list. It'd all be on grav platforms. Think cruise missile launchers or MLRS artillery systems on Devilfish hulls. Everythig the IG has got the Tau could easily have a higher tech grav equivalent.

Tau artillery would be precise rather than just the biggest load of high explosive which could be lobbed the requisite distance.

fracas
02-06-2005, 13:35
even the current military has slowly moved away from artillery toward self guiding munitions.
in BFG tau is known for the self targetting torpedoes.
indirect fire via artillery is not very Tau
self guiding attacks as with Bomb drones makes much more sense.

what about drones with marker lights?

The Emperor
02-06-2005, 18:54
Personally, I'd like only a couple minor changes made to the Tau. Army-wise, some more unit variety would be nice. As for specifics, I think Tau versions of bike squads would be cool. Like a jetbike, only they're hugging the ground, rather then floating high above it like an Eldar Jetbike, and with the Tau rider leaning forward in his seat, rather then leaning back.

Larger battlesuits crewed by multiple Tau would also be neat. Maybe a battlesuit with one guy handling motor control, and another guy sitting on a side cockpit manning the weapons.

A darkening of the Tau fluff would also be nice. Make it fit more into the 40k universe, rather then giving us this bright, flawless Federation style empire sitting in the middle of this brutal, unforgiving galaxy. For example, how're the Tau handling the influx of new races in their empire, like humans? How do they handle rogue psykers who're capable of dooming an entire planet to Chaos? How do they deal with mutants? Chaos and Genestealer Cults? Nevermind that it's strongly implied that Tau stick so rigidly to the Greater Good because of some influence exercised over Tau society by the Ethereals (not a necessarily psychic influence, but an influence, nonetheless). As can be expected, the influence that Ethereals have over other Tau doesn't extend to other races, from humans to Nicassar. So what do the Tau do with anybody in their empire who doesnt strive for the Greater Good? Are they allowed to go on their merry way, as they contribute nothing to the Greater Good, and possibly even go against it? Or is something done about them?

Those're all questions that need to be answered, especially given that they've experienced a recent growth spurt, bringing in untold numbers of humans. All of whom are now without Inquisitorial supervision, and are uncontrollable by the Ethereals. If the Tau Empire is to survive this, then whatever solutions they come up have to be implemented over a large scale as quickly as possible. And odds are, those solutions are going to be pretty harsh. And the Tau fluff has to reflect that. It doesn't mean that the outer appearance of the Tau Empire as this bright and shining utopia has to change. But when you scratch the surface, you start to uncover some ugliness that the Tau would prefer that others not see. That, IMO, would make them a more interesting and characterful race, not to mention a better fit for the 40k universe.

Astromarine
02-06-2005, 19:44
Absolutely, but it has to be done with care. I wouldn't like for Tau to be darkened just for the sake of it, I think they can only be unique if they stay this "bright". But I'd LOVE for this "brightness" to be increased to a point where it is not distinguishable from darkness. Know what I mean? One of those "barbieland" things where everything is so perfect and good and bright and happy and perfect that you feel like choking somebody. "twilight zone" brightness.

Gah. It's hard to explain.

Keichi246
02-06-2005, 20:04
Those're all questions that need to be answered, especially given that they've experienced a recent growth spurt, bringing in untold numbers of humans. All of whom are now without Inquisitorial supervision, and are uncontrollable by the Ethereals. If the Tau Empire is to survive this, then whatever solutions they come up have to be implemented over a large scale as quickly as possible. And odds are, those solutions are going to be pretty harsh. And the Tau fluff has to reflect that. It doesn't mean that the outer appearance of the Tau Empire as this bright and shining utopia has to change. But when you scratch the surface, you start to uncover some ugliness that the Tau would prefer that others not see. That, IMO, would make them a more interesting and characterful race, not to mention a better fit for the 40k universe.

I don't know...

I kinda *like* the fact that they are a the naive race poking out into the wider universe.

"Hey everyone - let's be friends!"
blam blam blam...
"um... ok then..."

Besides - they don't don't have to be overtly dark to have dark undertones. The fact that their negotiating style more resembles Captain Kirk (you WILL join us, one way or the other) rather than the Federation is plainly apparent in the codex...

And isn't it funny how none of the auxilary races have weaponry that can pierce Armor 3 (and only the Kroot Gun on the Krootox can pen AP4) - when all their armor is 5 - which the Tau weapons can pierce easily... sure sounds like they fully trust the auxiliaries to me... ;)

Not EVERYTHING in 40k has to be the GRIM Darkness... Grim, grim grim, dark, dark, death.

Dave Gaidasz

alterion
02-06-2005, 20:18
Checkout FW... kind of already exist...
nah i meant small prersonal ones .. not the big ass cool tetra style ones... single seater lone ranger things.... just for 1 pathfinder

The Emperor
02-06-2005, 20:36
Not EVERYTHING in 40k has to be the GRIM Darkness... Grim, grim grim, dark, dark, death.

:p Well, yeah, it does. That's kind of the point. It's "In the grim darkness of the 41st millenium, there is only war", not "In the somewhat shady 41st millennium, the happy-go-lucky Tau explore the universe in the USS Friendship, aided by their good friends Sir Hugsalot, magical unicorns, and wielding the power of Peachy Keenness!".

But anyway... ;)


I kinda *like* the fact that they are a the naive race poking out into the wider universe.

But with every Codex you gotta have an evolution of a races fluff. In the first one, they were the naive race poking their heads out in the universe. Now, well, now they've got a population of several billion humans to contend with, with many worlds consisting of nothing BUT humans, save for the occasional Tau. They're going to have to deal with the fact that letting human psykers run wild is a recipe to getting your planet overrun by Chaos and enmeshed in warp storms in a heartbeat. God knows that even WITH the Inquisition keeping an eye on things, the Imperium STILL has a problem with keeping Chaos Cults down, and with keeping daemonic infestation out of their worlds. If the Inquisition, with their brutal tactics, can't keep Imperial worlds 100% safe, how're the Tau supposed to do things while they still got kid gloves on? And how're they gonna react when they start losing worlds to Chaos infestation? Nevermind the relative ease with which one can emmigrate from one Tau Empire world to another (at least in comparison to the Imperium). It's one thing to lose a primarily human world. But how happy are the Tau gonna be when they lose a primarily Tau world because ONE rogue psyker slipped into a Tau Sept world and opened a doorway that the Chaos Gods waltzed right through? How will they react to something like that?

And once again, it's pretty easy getting your average Tau to do whatever it takes to move the Greater Good forward, so long as the Ethereals are present. It's another matter, entirely, to get billions of humans to do that. You think Farsight's Enclave is a problem? That's a problem the Tau can readily ignore, because his Enclave isn't made up of that many Tau, and it's outside the borders of the Tau Empire. But how're they going to deal with that sort of thing when it's going on WITHIN the borders of the Tau Empire, with numbers far surpassing anything Farsight could even dream of?

boogle
02-06-2005, 21:45
the Tau are meant to be 'bright', they are a young race so they haven't seen the multitude of horrors the rest of the Universe has, but they have a dark side in the 'join us or die' attitude

Aurelien
02-06-2005, 21:51
It isnt really a Join us or Die attitude. The demiurg have not joined, but they trade wth the Empire, and are left t thier own devices. Its really more an Oppose us and Die attitude.

Creamy Goodness
02-06-2005, 21:56
Perhaps, would something like that to happen, human auxilaries could go from being allies along the lines of kroot to being something more along the lines of the old "penal troopers", anyone remember those? It would be a great way to represent the darker side of tau society were they to enslave a race and use them as cannon fodder in their armies. I dunno though, kinda seems to be too big a break with fluff to me.

They really need to flesh out the main list first, whatever they do with humans they need to be a full part of the range and become a real factor in tau armies on the tabletop. What other races ARE a part of the tau empire besides humies and kroot, anyhow?

Ack. I hate the tau jetbike idea. It's so........star wars.

Xisor
02-06-2005, 22:04
Balls to that.

I don't think things need to be so polarised with the Tau it's not one second 'I love you!' whilst the next the same Tau is reporting a human for wearing a fedora to the Secret Police...

Hell, look at the Federation in later episodes of Star Trek. Section 31, persecution of the Maquis, the Dominion War.

Just because the Tau are aspiring to the greater good, I doubt they live under the idea that they *have* a Utopian society. The Kroot are well aware of the problems with the Greater Good philosophy, but they realise the Tau are capable of making it work, or at least that they have the best chance. Just because you think it won't work doesn't mean there is more harm in trying...

As for the distinct problems:

Rogue Psykers: The Tau *do* employ psychic races, I'm sure after the 'first' fiasco, they would go to extreme lengths to test and screen potential psychics, I'll bet the Nicassar or some other race play a big part here.

Genestealers: These present no more drastic problem to the Tau than they do to any one world of the Imperium. If you don't notice it quick, you're up the Eye of Terror without a Geller Field.

Controlling the Auxilliaries: This is an important one, but I suppose there'll be a system of 'independant' Law Enforcement, where any particular race can join, unlike the Military in which each race tends to be segregated at a minimum of the squad level. I also envisage 'duos' of Aun'la and Aun'vre kicking about the Empire in an almost 'jedi' mediator fashion. Not a 'law' force, but just to allow them free reign to help things go smoothly.

Possession & Rampant Chaos: The Eastern Fringe, particularly Tau Space, is very far from the Eye of Terror. With no 'strong' basis of worship possession and daemonic manifestation is particularly difficult.

As for darkening it, I think the key of it is presenting a balanced view of the Empire. Not one story of 'everything going right' and one story of 'everything going wrong', but a good bit of 'it all going right, but showing you the imperfectison, the bumps, the creases, the holes'. Basically showing it's not perfect, it doesn't need to be dark or grim, it just needs to be honest.

Xisor

Creamy Goodness
02-06-2005, 22:10
"As for darkening it, I think the key of it is presenting a balanced view of the Empire. Not one story of 'everything going right' and one story of 'everything going wrong', but a good bit of 'it all going right, but showing you the imperfectison, the bumps, the creases, the holes'. Basically showing it's not perfect, it doesn't need to be dark or grim, it just needs to be honest."


Personally if I was games developer in charge of the tau this is the route i'd take. However, GW doesn't always go for restrained realism in it's fluff does it? ;)

Can someone please explain to me how tyranid hive fleets evolved? How does something evolve from a single cell into a gigantic, space-faring leviathan? :eyebrows:

Ah well. My money's on them trying to darken them SOMEHOW. Probably some unforseen threat forcing them to shake things up a little etc. etc.

Xisor
02-06-2005, 22:27
I think the way it goes up is the same 'rough' route as a human evolves from a single celled organism, then 'they' evolve up to a Galaxy Spanning Imperium of Man swatting everything thats not mankind. The Tyranids have replaced technology with biology, thats all really.(And have developed a hive mind, which is just a variant IMO of most other forms of government).

Nothing 'too' complicated, just improbable.

I think a nice way of illustrating how 'dark' it is is specifically showing how the Tau react when things go wrong. For example, the Demiurg. How, in detail, did the Tau handle it when they realised they were negotiating with someone who could out negitiate them or simply 'go elsewhere' or even simply destroy them? We know they've a sort of ad-hoc alliance/trade deal going, but how does it *work*?

Also, how are the Tau dealing with seperatists, Tyranids and Orks. How does the average firewarrior console himself for having enacted genocide on an Ork tribe, even with the knowledge that they'd just make war on the Tau? How is public opinion of this dealt with. How do the castes interact on a day to day basis. What happens when someone is asked to put the Tau'va in front of a particularly strong Tal'issera?

Xisor

geoffkemp
03-06-2005, 11:23
Things I'd like to see with tau?
gue'vesa'la should follow the IG regimental structure-platoons would be sweet!


I agree with this to some point. Though maybe with a "command unit made up of A Yau officer plus a combination of tau and human troopers, perhasp one human could be an officer as well.

Against the background Broadsides don`t sit well, at least the with the model and the current rules. Maybe somethign as simple as swapping the raliguns and the SMS around on the model, for me makes it look better. Perhaps the slow and purposeful rules maybe and the option to take an Ion cannon over the rail-guns as well??

Though hat might be too effective at killing marines. :p

Scythe
03-06-2005, 12:28
Though hat might be too effective at killing marines. :p

Is that a bad thing?

:D

Creamy Goodness
03-06-2005, 13:40
Making human auxilaries a troops option in the new dex would solve some problems for the tau. Being able to perhaps equip them with two CCW's would add a little, but still balanced, boost to tau in CC. They'd still only be ws3 and 1 attack, but two on the charge would still make them much better in melee combat than fire warriors.

Why can't Kroot, a supposedly cunning and barbaric race, wield close combat weapons? Don't make no sense dagnammit.

Sephiroth
03-06-2005, 14:16
Why can't Kroot, a supposedly cunning and barbaric race, wield close combat weapons? Don't make no sense dagnammit.

With their rifles, don't they count as having two CC weapons anyway?

TaintedSpam
03-06-2005, 14:55
With their rifles, don't they count as having two CC weapons anyway?

Yeah, but what I think he's getting at is the transition to 4th edition makes shooting and then assault not possible.

Scythe
03-06-2005, 15:17
So you just assault and have 3 attacks anyway, just as you would have if you only had 2 ccw. You don't *have* to shoot.

Austinitor
03-06-2005, 15:28
Jason,
Though the point is not moot, I would argue that the Wave Serpent was (for quite some time) a Forge World model that was a main army list choice.

Austin



GW will never include FW models into the main range -the closest they have come is with IG tanks and tank companies but citadel are never going to be making those models...

TaintedSpam
03-06-2005, 17:28
So you just assault and have 3 attacks anyway, just as you would have if you only had 2 ccw. You don't *have* to shoot.

I would tend to agree. But it was kinda nice to get kroot to shoot as well before they shot. They don't tend to stick around very long, so I could see why you would want to get as much out of them as soon as possible.

Scythe
03-06-2005, 18:47
That would make them quite powerfull doesn't it? Fire 2 S4 shots, and assault with 3 S4 attacks. That's quite sick, practically 5 attacks for a 7 pts model (ok, Orks also get 4 cc attacks when charging and 1 from shooting, but they are S3 in combat, hit on 5s ranged, and are more pts).

Tenoch
03-06-2005, 20:11
kroot are perfectly veratile, just bung them in cover and assault anyone who comes near.

You aren't meant to shoot and assault with them, that is why they get an extra attack in CC from their gun.

Creamy Goodness
03-06-2005, 22:57
My bad, forgot about that extra attack with their rifle........still, an easy way to inject some diversity into the list would be to diversify the possible weapons choices available to kroot and humans. I think fluff dictates that firewarriors only ever carry pulse rifles, correct?

Voss
04-06-2005, 08:11
Or carbines- but only half the squad. Which is something I really hope changes when/if there is an update. I much perfer weapons in a single squad to have a similar range and category. If you aren't firing everything, whatever isn't viable is a waste of points.

Like some others here, there are some basic changes I'd like to see:

Drone rules to something consistant with their original role (for the wargear drones). If they're bringing down the toughness/save of the battlesuits, they're a flat-out liability.

Optional devilfish for pathfinders.

Variations on the seeker missile (which would eliminate the need for off-table static artillery)
such as EMP missiles (auto glancing hit?) or flechette bursts. Would still need a markerlight lock, but that prevents the 'inaccurate artillery is unfluffy argument'- which I agree with. With the 5 in 6 chance, its no where near in accurate.

Something I wouldn't want to see:
across the board BS 4.
a) unnecessary and potentially seriously unbalancing change.
Broadside railguns? twin-linked.
vehicles have or can have BS4 upgrade
battlesuits can be twin-linked if you're that obsessed with accuracy.

b) doesn't fit the basic grunt feel of the firewarriors.
they're IG-equivalents. professional but not elite troops.
WS4/BS4 is reserved for troops that are 'naturals'/absurdly trained (as in, failed recruits
generally end up dead)/special/limited numbers/do or die fanatics

c) however, it would be appropriate for the shas'ui/shas'vre battlesuit pilots. (Squad
leaders and body guards) and more fluffy than the WS/I upgrades.

I'd personally like to see more focus on the Tau rather than Kroot/human auxiliaries/random aliens. Maybe a limit 0-3 troop choices on non-tau.
Kroot definitely don't need to be smeared across the fast-attack & heavy support categories as filler.

A fast-recon unit. grav-bikes (using the jetpack rules) or something. twin pulse carbines & markerlights.

more wargear.

Earth caste techs. Independent like techmarines, with specialized drones. Repair capabilities... or, even better, remote operated repair drones, since non-Fire caste Tau don't belong on the battlefield proper.

Commander options. A lead from the back, planning strategy and implement tactics type, with a staff and and absurdly high tech communications system (reserve rerolls, anyone?)
rather than a 'oh dear, I'm stuck going toe-to-toe with the enemy daemon prince/hive tyrant because I've got an invulnerable save'.
Maybe with a command vehicle.

Something with the ethereals and broadsides. At the moment neither fit very well. Hey, lets stick our sacred leaders in with the grunts that haven't a prayer of actually defending him if things go horribly wrong! Yeah. While we're at it, lets tie our mobile strike force up with crippled battlesuits that are easily outflanked and overrun! We can hope that the enemy is foolish enough to park something expensive and important right in front of them, right?

Nazguire
04-06-2005, 09:26
Or carbines- but only half the squad. Which is something I really hope changes when/if there is an update. I much perfer weapons in a single squad to have a similar range and category. If you aren't firing everything, whatever isn't viable is a waste of points.

Like some others here, there are some basic changes I'd like to see:

Drone rules to something consistant with their original role (for the wargear drones). If they're bringing down the toughness/save of the battlesuits, they're a flat-out liability.

Optional devilfish for pathfinders.

Variations on the seeker missile (which would eliminate the need for off-table static artillery)
such as EMP missiles (auto glancing hit?) or flechette bursts. Would still need a markerlight lock, but that prevents the 'inaccurate artillery is unfluffy argument'- which I agree with. With the 5 in 6 chance, its no where near in accurate.

Something I wouldn't want to see:
across the board BS 4.
a) unnecessary and potentially seriously unbalancing change.
Broadside railguns? twin-linked.
vehicles have or can have BS4 upgrade
battlesuits can be twin-linked if you're that obsessed with accuracy.

b) doesn't fit the basic grunt feel of the firewarriors.
they're IG-equivalents. professional but not elite troops.
WS4/BS4 is reserved for troops that are 'naturals'/absurdly trained (as in, failed recruits
generally end up dead)/special/limited numbers/do or die fanatics

c) however, it would be appropriate for the shas'ui/shas'vre battlesuit pilots. (Squad
leaders and body guards) and more fluffy than the WS/I upgrades.

I'd personally like to see more focus on the Tau rather than Kroot/human auxiliaries/random aliens. Maybe a limit 0-3 troop choices on non-tau.
Kroot definitely don't need to be smeared across the fast-attack & heavy support categories as filler.

A fast-recon unit. grav-bikes (using the jetpack rules) or something. twin pulse carbines & markerlights.

more wargear.

Earth caste techs. Independent like techmarines, with specialized drones. Repair capabilities... or, even better, remote operated repair drones, since non-Fire caste Tau don't belong on the battlefield proper.

Commander options. A lead from the back, planning strategy and implement tactics type, with a staff and and absurdly high tech communications system (reserve rerolls, anyone?)
rather than a 'oh dear, I'm stuck going toe-to-toe with the enemy daemon prince/hive tyrant because I've got an invulnerable save'.
Maybe with a command vehicle.

Something with the ethereals and broadsides. At the moment neither fit very well. Hey, lets stick our sacred leaders in with the grunts that haven't a prayer of actually defending him if things go horribly wrong! Yeah. While we're at it, lets tie our mobile strike force up with crippled battlesuits that are easily outflanked and overrun! We can hope that the enemy is foolish enough to park something expensive and important right in front of them, right?



You sir, understand the dillemma of the Tau. Especially the Ethereal and the Kroot concrete filling mix problem. I applaud thee.

A command vehicle and strategic planner would be excellent for the Tau. Something that allows more than the predictable re-rolling reserves or lets you re-roll first turn :rolleyes:
The Ethereal I feel is a very good inclusion in the Tau list...but at present he serves no more than another body to die. And when he dies, instead of the Fire Warriors going crazy like they are described to as, they take a leadership test. I feel the solution is this.

Same leadership rule, but if they pass they move 2D6" towards the unit responsible for its death. Yes this does mean they may be in danger of combat. But if it is pulled off correctly, could allow interesting tactical options.

Scythe
04-06-2005, 11:08
I'd rather see something like that on a failed Ld test. Sure higher leadership means higher self control, right?

Quercia
04-06-2005, 11:51
If I ever start WH 40k, I will collect Tau first. I just like them so much.

Now hearing that they are coming again, I'm nearly shaking! Pwew.

I already like them now, and IMO don't need a new release of models (Dark Eldar's turn I think), but I don't decide it.

W0W a new release!

Well don't expect much of my sayings as I didn't read this whole topic .... 16 pages....

Cheers,
-Q

athamas
04-06-2005, 12:26
the probem with the tau rage is it its liited, which is quite nice, but they have ALOT less options than every one else, which is abit of a shame, as they are a nice army!

my_name_is_tudor
04-06-2005, 12:57
perhaps something like, if the Ethereal dies, and a leadership test is failed, the firewarriors gain the slow and purposeful rule, but must advance towards the enemy lines and shoot. But if they fail on two 6s they must fall back.

This could prove a boon, you gain ground without losing out on firepower, which is how I imagine the Tau 'rage' thing to be, its not outright fury, its anger and passion driving the warriors to become much more focussed and aggressive in the way they shoot. - not neccessarily a bad thing, in the codex it never says that when an ethereal dies everything goes pear-shaped, or that the Tau lose it, indeed it never even says that when an ethereal dies Tau become crap at fighting, it makes out that it actually makes them better at what they do.

It could also prove bad in that you might be moving your warriors towards potential assaults, or into the enemies field-of-fire, and things like that, advancing towards a hoard army would be a very bad thing, obviously

athamas
04-06-2005, 13:30
but an etherial should not be on the fore fron of the battle, wouldn't it make sense to have the ethereal as an upgrade, that allows your troops a moral reroll..

something like '
100pts,
ethereal backing

all tau warriors gain the ability to reroll failed moral checks'


kinda simular to the mark of chaos only not as usefull, as it only applies to moral checks!

but it would keep him safe and be usefull!

cailus
05-06-2005, 12:12
I don't think that they ever should have released Ethereals as models or as a unit. They are simply too valuable to place on the battlefield.

Broadsides also need to be redesigned if they are to fit the fluff (mobile warfare). Perhaps they could be allowed to use the jet pack assault move rule if they don't shoot?

As for BS4 - give it to the XV-8's as a hardpoint upgrade.

bigbauske
05-06-2005, 17:06
I like the idea of a hard point upgrade, like a trgeting array for the hammerhead. Taking up a hard point gives you a choice also, take the multi track and shoot more thn one weapon or increase BS. Good trade off IMO.


With the broadsides, i feel a better option with them would be a rule like slow and purposefull on the chaos oblitoraters. That would represent the heavy weapons and there effect on their mobility without effecting there feel.

athamas
05-06-2005, 17:26
or make the Bs upgrade a hardwired option.. meaning leaders could have both upgrades!

Creamy Goodness
05-06-2005, 17:48
I can't be bothered to go through my 40k rulebook .pdf, what is this slow and purposeful I'm hearing so much about?

I love the idea of broadsides being able to move an extra 6" during the assault phase if they don't fire their railguns. Would make them much more mobile, not to mention useful. Tau are supposed to be all about mobile firepower, espousing a fluid line and tactical manuever. This fits.

Warlord Gnashgrod
05-06-2005, 19:40
but an etherial should not be on the fore fron of the battle, wouldn't it make sense to have the ethereal as an upgrade, that allows your troops a moral reroll..

something like '
100pts,
ethereal backing

all tau warriors gain the ability to reroll failed moral checks'


kinda simular to the mark of chaos only not as usefull, as it only applies to moral checks!

but it would keep him safe and be usefull!

I like this idea best for having the Ethereal represented game-wise. It works the best. It seems stupid to me for the Ethereal to be out there so close to the front lines of the battle, particularly since he has nothing to protct him. No armor, no shield generator, nothing. No grand important leader today would be so foolish as to be out there like the Ethereal is, so why does he do it?

ghost21
05-06-2005, 23:01
i thought of a water caste hunting party (as in big game hunters type of thing ) who go to war to bag a human ork etc

or an earth caste excivation team who fight with power gauntlets (to help with mining ) representing the diferent casts aproach to combat

the only other thing i could think off is a air cast parratroopers (akin to stealthsuits but pureley arial comatters) who specialise in lighting attacks

who are 0-1 reprisenting the rarity of the other casts in war

Xisor
05-06-2005, 23:17
Perhaps a mention that the stats for the Aun are merely Aun'ui or Aun'vre(and a note reducing/confirming Aun'shi's classification as an Ethereal). They are highly unlikely to be Aun'O.

Xisor

fracas
05-06-2005, 23:31
Ethereals are like Jedis of the Tau Republic?

Xisor
05-06-2005, 23:49
IMO, yes. I don't see the Aun taking classes at schools and things, perhaps one off 'guest' lectures, and such. I see them being closely akin to the Adeptus Arbites and the Inquisition(though not as militaristic). The lower orders wander the empire. They act as advisors and mediators between castes and auxilliaries.

By maintain a constant but low key presence across the Empire they gently reassure the populace without being 'too' in your face about it. Constant, but you *are* allowed to get on with your life. In a similar vein, they act like Priests of today do in many societies, advisors, confidents, 'moral rocks' that you can go and seek advice on. They are highly unlikely to actually 'lay down law' on any citezans they see acting in a counterproductive manner, rather I'd see them quietly slipping out of the shadows, tapping the 'deviant' on the shoulder and saying a few words of wisdom, easing them through whichever dark patch of their life they are in and allowing the 'deviant' to come to his own (correct) decision on it.

The thing most people have a problem with about the Aun is that they really can't believe that any particular individual or body of individuals is capable of making 'good' and 'correct' decisions almost all the time. Like having a politician you can trust, or a priest who isn't a paedophile, no-one can see past the flaws associated with them. The Aun on the otherhand, I *like* the idea that they are, mostly, correct in what they do. They actually do things 'for' the greater good, and can weigh up 'everyones' needs and come to a good decision on it. Why is this any less 'real' in the 40k Universe than a 'Warp-Etheric Entity' that exists purely to(or perhaps because of) scheme, plot and change or any other similar thing...

Xisor

PS Like the Jedi, but not quite. They *are* political, the difference is, they can do it well.

Sephiroth
06-06-2005, 00:23
IMO, yes. I don't see the Aun taking classes at schools and things, perhaps one off 'guest' lectures, and such. I see them being closely akin to the Adeptus Arbites and the Inquisition(though not as militaristic). The lower orders wander the empire. They act as advisors and mediators between castes and auxilliaries.

Hmm. I must admit I always thought of them as being extremely rare, in comparison to the other castes, and a bit more like 'royalty' I suppose than actually akin to Jedi.

Surely mediators and such falls to the Water caste? While an Aun is clearly going to be much better in combat situation, if the Aun were so 'availible' wouldn't the Imperium have obtained one by now?

blitz589
06-06-2005, 00:29
it wouldent hurt to give them an invuln save or higher tuffness

Khaine's Messenger
06-06-2005, 00:48
By maintain a constant but low key presence across the Empire they gently reassure the populace without being 'too' in your face about it.

And maintaing the idea that, in the current political climate, the Greater Good is what the Tau and their allies want and have decided to participate in to their own ends, and not just because the Ethereals told them to do it (and I'm not saying that the latter is the fact of the matter, just that the way they "govern" and "advise" is through encouragement and not exactly imposition). It actually makes them feel worthwhile and involved to believe they are choosing the Greater Good.

In game terms, I imagine you could just as easily replicate his effects while removing the Ethereal by expanding on the concept of bonding or introducing other morale-affecting components to the army (like the "no Tau is ever alone" concept/individual trooper combat monitoring from Fire Warrior). I'd rather the Ethereals not be in the "core" Tau armylist, myself, but eh....

Xisor
06-06-2005, 00:49
Nay, Watercaste are politicians, diplomats, beauracrats(SP?), lawyers and desk jockies and the like. Journalists etc.

If it weren't for the Aun, I'm betting the Por would be one of the first to get a 'swift punch' from the other castes and auxilliaries. Sure, they likely mediate in more official capacities, but they don't actually 'know' as well as the Aun do. Just because a lawyer can win a case, doesn't mean that justice was done.

I'm sure 'proper' high ranking Aun like Aun'el and Aun'O are exceedingly rare, but the multitudes of Aun'la and Aun'ui running around the Empire is likely something at least comparable to the strengths combining:

Priests of the Ecclessiarchy
Commissars
Adeptus Arbites
Inquisitors

per 'head of capita' and *then* some.

Sure they are relatively rare, in comparison to actual percentage portion of the population I'd say as a rough guesstimate, 1 ethereal per thousand anyone else in the empire should do 'something'. That may still be very common...

Still, my interpretation could be totally wrong, they could be legendary/mythical almost, 'real' royalty, don't go anywhere unescorted kind of thing...

(actually, that'd open a whole new can of worms, 'rogue' Aun who do sneak away from their security, and go under cover trying to solve the ailments of the Empire...)

Xisor

PS Actually on this point, it'd be interesting to see GW actually take/make an expansion to Inquisitor based on roughly these principles. To actually flesh out a thing like this to show the darker/not as clean cut side of the Empire.

Pokpoko
06-06-2005, 16:24
as for Aun being priests-isn't Ta'u actually ruled by Aun council? but seeing that they are considered to be also spiritual leaders, it means that the political system of Empire is Theocratic Oligarhy? :cool: the same with them wandering around-the "fluff" presented in "Kill-Team" would sugesst that even the lowliest aun are considered something akin to "archishop", very high in the hierarchy.

my_name_is_tudor
06-06-2005, 23:00
there is also the council of advisors, which is made up of retired shas'os and such, and probably senior members of other castes. They play a big part in Tau politics.

Xisor
07-06-2005, 02:25
Ideally speaking that same 'council of advisors' would be made up of anyone with useful advice on a subject IMO, not simply senior members of a Caste. To make that a bit more accurate, I'd propose that the 'council of advisors' also consist of any auxilliaries fullfilling/overseeing important or pivotal jobs as as well 'anyone' with any sort of authority on a(relevant) subject, not merely a political body of senior caste members.

Alot of the fluff from KillTeam has been lost to me in the time since I read it, if possible could you, or anyone, extrapolate on the details and notes of the Aun expressed within the text?

Xisor

LO Roxxors
07-06-2005, 03:12
Personally, I would like to see them having more Drone varients, and perhaps some other legit battlefield repair systems, rather like Techmarines and Servitors.

aznsk8s87
07-06-2005, 10:11
So this "council" dictates what actions must be taken for "the greater good", correct?

WLBjork
07-06-2005, 10:28
Personally, I would not expect to see Tau for a long while yet.

The Ork and Eldar Codexes are both older than the Tau book, and whilst the Tau book is intended to be V4 compatible, the Ork and Eldar Codexes are not.

From that point of view, I would expect the Ork and Eldar Codexes to take priority.

Xisor
07-06-2005, 12:25
aznsk8s87: No, well not entirely. They don't dictate anything, but they do provide their perspectives on how things should be done, it entirely up to the Ethereals what decision is made, though likely if everyone on the council agrees I can imagine the Aun giving them some credibility and saying 'do what they said'.

My view of the council would be to advise the Aun, almost like the Aun are the 'speaker' or 'chair' of the Council...they still retain executive power, but do take the advise and vote of their populace as far as they like it.

Xisor

Scythe
07-06-2005, 12:38
Personally, I would not expect to see Tau for a long while yet.

The Ork and Eldar Codexes are both older than the Tau book, and whilst the Tau book is intended to be V4 compatible, the Ork and Eldar Codexes are not.

From that point of view, I would expect the Ork and Eldar Codexes to take priority.

Altough I agree Eldar and Orks would have priority, the tau codex wasn't written with 4th edition in mind. Remember the codex was written about 5 years ago, before the trail assault or vehicle rules. The 4th edition rules were only in early devellopment at best when tau were released. However, there's less tweaking needed as Orks or Eldar, hence they could be squeezed between.

aznsk8s87
07-06-2005, 12:56
aznsk8s87: No, well not entirely. They don't dictate anything, but they do provide their perspectives on how things should be done, it entirely up to the Ethereals what decision is made, though likely if everyone on the council agrees I can imagine the Aun giving them some credibility and saying 'do what they said'.

My view of the council would be to advise the Aun, almost like the Aun are the 'speaker' or 'chair' of the Council...they still retain executive power, but do take the advise and vote of their populace as far as they like it.

Xisor
like palpatine?

Scythe
07-06-2005, 14:15
Lol. Very nice comparaison. So true....:D

Flame
07-06-2005, 15:01
Tau is getting a remake, but the new Codex will be called Tau: Empires, and will envelope all sorts of things. Theres even a new race of flying beasties.

Not really sure of much more, or when, as I dont play 40K!

Wolflord Havoc
07-06-2005, 15:29
I want to see Fearless Drones (Why would a drone run away and expose the rest of the army ?)

Special weapon (railrifle + the battle suit weapons) options for the Firewarrior Squads. perhaps 1 or 2 per squad (just like Storm troopers!!!)

The ability to take Pathfinders without having to spend 80+ points on a Devilfish

Tenoch
07-06-2005, 16:54
Tau is getting a remake, but the new Codex will be called Tau: Empires, and will envelope all sorts of things. Theres even a new race of flying beasties.

Not really sure of much more, or when, as I dont play 40K!And how do you know this may I ask?

Flame
07-06-2005, 17:16
Most of my friends work for GW at Lenton in all parts of the company. The new flying beasts have already been sculpted, and look amazing. Then its simply a matter of getting them drunk! :)

Tenoch
07-06-2005, 17:20
Ok then, any word if there will be the possibility to take an all kroot range?

How will the book work, willl it be a tau army with lots of random units if you want, or will it be possible to take whole armies of the other races, such as flying beasties or kroot?

If you don't know could you find out/do your best to find out as much as you cam etc. I would be very very grateful.

Also any idea on when the codex will see the light of day?

Xisor
07-06-2005, 17:23
Spec weapons in FW squads, I hope not! What I would like to see is a twin linked railrifle hardpoint for Crisis Suits, ie a twin railrifle takes up one point.

As for the Aun vs Palpatine Comparison, as much as I'd love to agree, thats not what I mean. The Tau'va is effectively an Empire, not a Democracy, *but* it is involved with its citizenry. I can see 'advisory councils' being like Pupil Councils in Schools. They have no *real* power, but they tend to come up with good ideas and are a good place for those that run the school to listen to the ideas of the Pupils. Advisory council, not Government.

I wonder if there are any 'secret' tales of an Aun who tried to take over the Empire...

Xisor

EDIT: Actually, following that: I wonder if GW would ever detail the intricasies of the Aun, if there are major 'colleges of thought', whether there are any secret societies within Aun(I can envisage a little 'Stone Masons' club with secret handshakes...). In fact, in the same manner as the Armageddon and 13th Black Crusade Sourcebook things, I'm confident a 'Tau'va' Book would go down very well. Tales of a Gue'vesa'ui travelling through the Empire and keeping a record of his journeys. It'd be interesting and informative, and it'd give more nice little perspective things on the way the Empire works, like the letter from a Tau on Pech back to his sister on Bork'an.

Creamy Goodness
07-06-2005, 20:27
Most of my friends work for GW at Lenton in all parts of the company. The new flying beasts have already been sculpted, and look amazing. Then its simply a matter of getting them drunk! :)


I get the feeling you're having some fun with us.

However, if it proves to be true I shall cut your lawn.

Darkness
07-06-2005, 20:48
Just to back up Flame, I was informed today by my usual source of information (GW Manager who is friends with plenty of those at Head Office and used to work there :)) that there was "A new race based on Tau" being created, though they had no more information (At least, no more to give to me ;) on the matter. Of course I'll spill whatever I am told, so no worry - though I'm sure Flame will beat me to it on every occasion :D

fracas
07-06-2005, 21:49
flying beasties as in vulture kroots or a new specie all together? Nicassars?

i agree that you should be able to take an all kroot army from the list, thus needs an HQ (master shaper) and an elite (kroot vultures?)
hounds as fast should be able to take kroots
same with krootox as heavy should be able to take kroots
(not the other way around where kroot troops can take these selections into themselves)

nicassars are from BFG and they are also an psionic race

Xisor
07-06-2005, 21:56
I think the Krootox Option should be more akin to the Krootox Herd from the Merc List. Now *that* is power :D

The Hound unit should have FoF and be again akin to the Merc unit. Also, IMO, Kroot Hunters should be in the mix as well, in a 0-1 choice, 1-3/FO Chart, with the squads themself being 3-5 Kroot Hunters.

Gives the force a bit of 'room to manouver'.

As for this new race, I've no idea or inclination which way they intend to go with them. Perhaps combining two rumours is a bit much, but: Ogre Sized Flying Beasties? :p

Xisor

Khaine's Messenger
07-06-2005, 22:03
EDIT: Actually, following that: I wonder if GW would ever detail the intricasies of the Aun, if there are major 'colleges of thought', whether there are any secret societies within Aun(I can envisage a little 'Stone Masons' club with secret handshakes...).

Or if the Big Brother complex that the Fire Caste seems to have is present with the Aun as well.

"No Tau is ever alone!"

Xisor
07-06-2005, 22:12
An interesting plothole would be what happens when conflict of opinion 'subversively' occurs at the highest level. Honour Blade Duel, sure, but "Who Watches the Watchers?". Who makes sure thats how it happens? Is there any upper control? Should there be?

Xisor

Flame
08-06-2005, 01:17
Ok then, any word if there will be the possibility to take an all kroot range?

How will the book work, willl it be a tau army with lots of random units if you want, or will it be possible to take whole armies of the other races, such as flying beasties or kroot?

If you don't know could you find out/do your best to find out as much as you cam etc. I would be very very grateful.

Also any idea on when the codex will see the light of day?

I honestly don't know very much at all, just that they will be getting a new army book, which is really 3 books in one. AFAIK this means that their will be 2 exisiting ones- kroot and tau, and the new one. All can be taken seperatly or as allies.

Will let you know if I find anything more.

Scythe
08-06-2005, 08:03
Interesting news if this proves to be true.

Any rough estimation when to expect this new codex?

Tenoch
08-06-2005, 11:39
So far the rumours regarding time are:

"Sooner than you would expect" - Pertinax
"Before the holidays" - (presumably referring to christmas) can't remember the source

These two point to an xmas release though I'm doubtful, as i believed that was when BT were scheduled. However if BT are released in the Autumn, tail end of Wood Elf releeases, then I wou;dn't be that surprised to see them Xmas or just after.

Darkness
08-06-2005, 13:40
No chance as soon as Christmas. We're already half-way through the year, and we already know that Wood Elves and Black Templars are lined up to be the next releases this year.

Besides, we knew about things such as the new Tyranids, Marines, etc. for a long time - I mean, how long have we known about Black Templars for? For something to be talked about just 6 months before a release date seems very unlikely.

Maybe Summer next year I would believe, though then again, what about the Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, etc. that are meant to be being done as well?

rkunisch
08-06-2005, 13:42
... and don't forget The Mines of Moria and the new LotR hardback rulebook. That means there are still three mayor releases this year. No chance that there is another army book/codex in this period.

Have fun,

Rolf.

XaNder
08-06-2005, 14:07
I honestly don't know very much at all, just that they will be getting a new army book, which is really 3 books in one. AFAIK this means that their will be 2 exisiting ones- kroot and tau, and the new one. All can be taken seperatly or as allies.

Will let you know if I find anything more.
Could you catch/ask wether the Tau part will substitute the nowadays Codex or will it be complementary? That also means... are they going to resolve the drone problem? I hope so and it would also be rational if they finally addressed this problem... but, well, we all know...

BTW, AFAIK BT is really not for Christmass.
Cheers,
XaNder

Tenoch
08-06-2005, 14:12
Maybe Summer next year I would believe, though then again, what about the Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, etc. that are meant to be being done as well?

It won't be Dark Eldar, and if what Flame says is right, ie that models have already been sculpted, then I would guess that its Tau next, also I've heard that the book is being playtested already, however I am doubtful of that rumour and Engel disagrees with it.

Marines we knew about for ages because it was bloody obvious, and Tyranids were also fairly obvious seeing as they were in the starter box.

I reckon it'll be Tau followed by Orks or Eldar, my money's on Eldar though.

Your probably right about Xmas and summer might be a good guess aswell.

I mean think about it, so far, this year, we've had two 40k codexes and 2 WFB army books (ok one's a source book but it also had rules and alot of fluff aswell as being supported by many models). We know there is one more WFB army book to come aswell.

so predicted time slots:

2005
July Woodelves
September LOTR stuff
November Black Templars

2006
January WFB Dwarf source book or new army book
March Tau
May WFB stuff or LOTR (no idea)
July Eldar or Orks
September Revised WFB?
November Space marine dex of some sort

2007
January WFB empire
March Eldar or Orks

That's all current rumours slotted together nicely and seems logical, so in hindsight I'd predict March, similar time to Ogre kingdoms this year.

That gives time for each release to be hyped in White Dwarf then released and supported, then a book for a different system is whored out inWD and then supported on its release.

Also fits with time slots already seen this year.

Warlord Gnashgrod
08-06-2005, 15:44
Well, here's my 2 cents on what should be done for the Tau, whenever they actually get done: Something needs to be done to improve the battlesuits and the drones.

My reasoning is simple. It is the battlesuits(broadsides, crisis and stealthsuits) and drones that make the Tau army unique and different from all the others. But under the current 4th ed rules, the suits and drones just aren't really worth taking for their cost, both in game points wise and money wise. At least, this would seem to be the general consensus, what with all the Fire warrior-maxed Tau lists that I've seen out there. And just using lots of Fire warriors is, IMO, almost as boring as the Necron all warrior army list. There just isn't much variety to it. There are very few suits and drones being used now, it seems to me, and that's missing out on the true uniqueness of the Tau army.

Thus, something needs to be done to the suits and drones to make them more attractive choices/options again. There has been many suggestions already in this thread, and many of them I think would be quite good. So I won't mention them again. But this is what I think needs to be addressed and fixed for the new book. But that is , of course, just my opinion. What do you all think?

Flame
08-06-2005, 16:17
I believe they maybe longer than that- the list hasnt really gone that far and its probably at least year away (Theres usually a 1-1 1/2 year time frame to go from idea to finished codex)

Xisor
08-06-2005, 16:40
Well, in the BFG SG forum, it's been noted that there is a deal of work going on at GW both official and unofficial for the Kroot with an apparently 'excellent' fluff reason for the Kroot not using attack craft in BFG...

That combined with all the hinting at the Tau suggest that we could be within the '6-month rumour window'. Looking at the releases Black Templar are only modification to rules to Codex: Space Marines(not supplmenting, but y'know), they've already got everything they need to start with. The same goes for Tau, 'major' changes aren't at all likely. It's my opinion that these lists could both be out by December.

As for the modifications themselves, I doubt battlesuits will change much in their 'roles' and the way they work. The difference will be in points and effectiveness IMO. I envisage the possibility of the Crisis suit being allowed 4 Hardpoints just like the model.

For drones, I think they'll discover a method of 'making them work' in a way that doesn't require a 'core rule breaking' special rule. Rather I evisage them adopting the 'toughness and save' of any unit they join except they *must* be the first models removed. Makes them more effective essentially, but it'd require a bit of a point tweak I suppose.

For me, it's not the rules that I'm looking forward to with the Tau, it's whether they advance the fluff to incorporate the Third Phase Expansion and other 'interesting' fluff nuggets.

Xisor

Wolflord Havoc
08-06-2005, 17:08
Xisor

I was interested in discussing with you why you wouldn't want 'special' weapons in Fire warrior Squads.

I personnally would think that this would make sense as most basic infantry units in most armies allow 'special' weapons in order to allow that unit to be 'tailored' for a particular role but I am not afraid for my opinions to be challenged. ;)

Sai-Lauren
08-06-2005, 17:27
Well, in the BFG SG forum, it's been noted that there is a deal of work going on at GW both official and unofficial for the Kroot with an apparently 'excellent' fluff reason for the Kroot not using attack craft in BFG...

This could be being done as part of the Forge World Taros book. It would make sense for as much work as possible to be done on the Tau now as part of that work, even if the revised codex isn't due for a while.



For drones, I think they'll discover a method of 'making them work' in a way that doesn't require a 'core rule breaking' special rule. Rather I evisage them adopting the 'toughness and save' of any unit they join except they *must* be the first models removed. Makes them more effective essentially, but it'd require a bit of a point tweak I suppose.

Isn't that basically a contradition, especially if they adopt the rule you suggest? ;)

About the only way they can do both is have the drones confer a ward save (possibly variable based on number of drones say 5+ for 1, 3+ for 2, but you lose a drone if you make the save)

Releases - IIRC, Lustria and Tyrannid releases go up to the end of the summer. The Taros book is released in August.
I believe that Wood Elves are supposed to be the big release for Games Day UK (so they're closer to September than July), and we know that BT are the christmas release.

Dwarves don't really need a new army book, Dark Elves are more in need (possibly followed by High Elves).
I really am in two minds about March for Tau. IA3 will have given them a chance to be polished, and as a quick release to fill a gap, they're probably the best fit. But, all they really need at the moment is the drone rules updating and the rail rifle to be official - a one page FAQ really. So I can equally see them being held off to later to be more thoroughly worked on.


I envisage the possibility of the Crisis suit being allowed 4 Hardpoints just like the model.
Hmm, that's basically replacing the broadside (ok 2 TL systems, but still 4 HPs) - the crisis has 3 and the stealth 2 - heavy, medium and light battlesuits. 4HP Crisis suits could reduce the popularity of the broadside suit - take 3 Hammerheads in HS and 4HP Crisis suits in Elites and HQ and it could get messy.

Anyway, you can always go hardwired in quite a few cases to go above the 3 hardpoints on crisis suits.

Xisor
08-06-2005, 18:11
As again evidenced by members of the High Admirality for BFG: Forgeworld and Games Workshop don't work on rules together!

The rules for the Tau Commerce Protection Fleet, the FW Tau fleet are being done twice. Once officially by SG and once unofficially by FW. What goes into the FWs IA3 is not 'fully' official by the standards of GW main studio.

From this, the impression I get is that IA3 is independent of the redoing of the Codex. Alternatively I could be wrong and the development could be going hand in hand.

As for breaking the core rules, okay that was a contradicition. The point was, it isn't complicated or wordy. All it requires is an 'X' in place of their toughness value and a 'Y' in place of their save, with a small uncomplicated wording saying it's either X=3 y=4+ or if they join a unit, whatever theirs is. And that they are always removed first.

Otherwise they fall victim to the majority armour and toughness saves when joining battlesuits.

Xisor

Pokpoko
08-06-2005, 18:18
Hmm, that's basically replacing the broadside (ok 2 TL systems, but still 4 HPs) - the crisis has 3 and the stealth 2 - heavy, medium and light battlesuits. 4HP Crisis suits could reduce the popularity of the broadside suit - take 3 Hammerheads in HS and 4HP Crisis suits in Elites and HQ and it could get messy.
but isn't it already the case? hammerhead right now is far better choice, mainly due to the broadside's absolute lack of mobility,which makes gtting los to those fat targets nigh-on impossible. also giving Crissie 4HP would be simmiliar to what they did to the Warrior bugs,which now,due to being "non-instakillable" are slightly more durable. 4points mean you could take both 2weapons+multi,and some sort of deence(shield or drones),making your crissie slightly less "accident prone" but far more "tasty" to the enemy point-wise.a fair trade, methinks

my_name_is_tudor
08-06-2005, 19:03
@ Wolflord Havoc, the reason Tau shouldn't get special weapons within firewarrior squads is because the ethereals are very very reluctant to give a firewarrior special abilities over others, and only do so in the case of battlesuits due to a: the demand for them on the field, and b: that those warriors have proved themselves.

Derling
09-06-2005, 15:51
@ Wolflord Havoc, the reason Tau shouldn't get special weapons within firewarrior squads is because the ethereals are very very reluctant to give a firewarrior special abilities over others, and only do so in the case of battlesuits due to a: the demand for them on the field, and b: that those warriors have proved themselves.

How do you know that "the ethereals are very very reluctant to give a firewarrior special abilities over others"? It seems to me that they already do seem to do this by having a ranking system which puts shas'ui in fire warrior squads (who have a "special ablity" marerklight option).

Also, regarding your case why they are held only for battlesuits, I wuoldn't agree with it. appreantly, if you think "the demand for them on the field" is a necrsary concession for including special abilities among the caste ranks, including railrifles and such among the common troops could also be deemed as "demand[ed] onthe field".


There are other reasons not to include special weapons in fire warrior teams, but this isn't one of them IMO.

Khaine's Messenger
09-06-2005, 17:34
How do you know that "the ethereals are very very reluctant to give a firewarrior special abilities over others"?

The Crisis Suit article suggests that the Tau (well, the ethereals more specifically) believe the investment of too much "power" in an individual can lead to dangerous thoughts and psychological problems like the so-called "battlesuit neurosis." This is why being "given" a battlesuit is a pretty political choice and is not a matter that the Fire Caste decides upon alone. However, I imagine this is not the reason they have kept special weapons out of Shas'la fire teams....


It seems to me that they already do seem to do this by having a ranking system which puts shas'ui in fire warrior squads (who have a "special ablity" marerklight option).

Yes, but a markerlight is not independantly deadly....

Derling
09-06-2005, 18:21
The Crisis Suit article suggests that the Tau (well, the ethereals more specifically) believe the investment of too much "power" in an individual can lead to dangerous thoughts and psychological problems like the so-called "battlesuit neurosis." This is why being "given" a battlesuit is a pretty political choice and is not a matter that the Fire Caste decides upon alone. However, I imagine this is not the reason they have kept special weapons out of Shas'la fire teams........

I agree with you here, in both of your points. These are not contradictory to my own point, which is to say how the Ethereal maintain control and not giving power to single individuals in fire teams. As said, I also agree that ths is not the reason they have kept special weapons out of shas'la fireteams.

Where your point weakens is in the instance of the Pathfinder armed with a railrifle. While Pathfinders have a different role in the field, they do not have a higher rank in ther field, meaning that they are essentially fire warrior who have a different part to play in the fight. These lucky Shas'la DO gain weapon upgrades over their comrades. This would be somewhat contradictory to your stance, not to discredit your good points.




Yes, but a markerlight is not independantly deadly....

except when the markerlight user issues the command to launcher a antitank missle to launch off at the target. While it may be mounted on a tank, it is the shas'ui user who wields the power. the tank does not... ;-)

Xisor
09-06-2005, 19:59
Hmm, I suppose to back the points that Khaine's Messenger makes against special weapons, I agree, I believe Railrifles have no place in Pathfinder Teams. They should be a seperate choice. In fact 1-3 teams of 3 RailRiflers would be quite nice as a scouting FA choice. Perhaps even as an upgrade to the pathfinder entry...

However, the fact they *are* part of them just now is more akin to the fact that the Developers of Fire Warrior created them, essentially.

I think the inclusion of 'detatchements' to standard FW teams would do well. 'Like' Guard weapons teams, but 'add ons' to the Squad, but move and act independently...perhaps not, but it might be a happy medium.

Xisor

Derling
09-06-2005, 21:03
Hmm, I suppose to back the points that Khaine's Messenger makes against special weapons, I agree, I believe Railrifles have no place in Pathfinder Teams. They should be a seperate choice. In fact 1-3 teams of 3 RailRiflers would be quite nice as a scouting FA choice. Perhaps even as an upgrade to the pathfinder entry...

I honestly don't know where I stand on it. They seem to already have a a built in doctrine for arming and equippiong soldiers...BUT...Inevitvably we have to face the notion that the Tau are the youngest and most rapidly adapting race in the 40k universe. Change is constant. The wise adapt.


However, the fact they *are* part of them just now is more akin to the fact that the Developers of Fire Warrior created them, essentially.

How much of that statement is fact and how much of it is assumption and internet rumor. I would find it hard to believe that the GW developers have so little control over their product that they could not fit the railrifle (a concept created by the FireWarrior video game) in the way they wanted it too. I imagine that GW could have very easily not made the rail rifle at all, regardless of the weapons in the video game. Do we have proof that the railrifle was integrated into the Tau army list by another company without the true consent of the GW game developers? (This is a serious question and not as derogatory or sarcastic as it may seem)



I think the inclusion of 'detatchements' to standard FW teams would do well. 'Like' Guard weapons teams, but 'add ons' to the Squad, but move and act independently...perhaps not, but it might be a happy medium.
Xisor

That might not be bad. Maybe we'll see something like that in this rumoured tau codex. Maybe we'll see floating polar bears drinking bottle of Coca Cola. Maybe we'll see twinlinked rending railguns. In the end, The tau could get just about anything....Or maybe they aren't getting anything at all.

but in the end...what do I know anyway. 8

fracas
09-06-2005, 23:36
pathfinders should be able to take either railrifles or a devilfish

XaNder
10-06-2005, 09:56
Well, though I think it's a bit off topic in the rumour section...

I think that Tau would also enjoy a stealth suit wearing leader and comand squad, possibly with strategic bonuses like " after all unit have been deployed, you may choose one of your deployed units and move it in any other place of your deployment zone".

Also nice would be actually having suits as templates to be add to a selection of Firewarriors (thus including Pathfinders with stealth for reckoning and with Crisis say for forward action (oblviously no Broadside for them) and Commanders with Stealth or Broadside armour). The problem would be were should you place in the FoC -say- PF with Crisis suit... Elite or Fast Attack.

I think it would be also enjoyable to have a kind of all suits'n'vehicles army, the famous Mech Tip ((C) kai'lore :D ) but with special rules.

Or again an Eldar-Craftworld-like "you may take elite instead of troops and troops instead of elite" army list.
Well, I've been enough offtopic today :)
XaNder

Warlord Gnashgrod
10-06-2005, 14:38
One change for the Ethereal I wouldn't mind seeing is that having one would allow you to reroll any LD based tests for 'fully Tau' units.

I don't know about anyone else, but the base LD 8 of the army has hurt me a few times in regards to the Target Priority rules.

my_name_is_tudor
10-06-2005, 14:55
I've just thought of a way to demonstrate the Tau prowess for shooting without upping the balistic skill:

Something like, all Tau firewarriors/battlesuits/tanks.. whatever.. can re roll the leadership test to shoot at a unit that isnt the closest, or that they count as having +1 Ld when rolling this test..

demonstrates their ability to stay calm and keep a steady aim on what they need to shoot.

Flame Boy
10-06-2005, 19:58
That makes a lot of sense. Tau don't tolereate melee combat, so the extra ballistic training should mean they are exceptional at picking the best priority target to shoot at.

Creamy Goodness
10-06-2005, 20:25
I like those ideas regarding the representation of Tau warfare tactics without having to resort to bs4.

Voss
11-06-2005, 08:05
Other ways around BS4:

allow more access to markerlights. 27 points for a Shas'ui to have ld8, independent firing and markerlight is a bit much. Recost the leader upgrade to +5, drop the extra attack. remove the 2 point premium for hard-wiring a system, and cut the markerlight back to 8 pts? The package ends up being 18 points. 1/3 less, not unreasonable for what you're actually getting. LD8, and probably 3 markerlight hits over a 6 turn game.

In general, I'd like to see a move away from the WS/I/A improvements for leaders. Yes its traditional, but doesn't fit the tau in anyway whatsoever. Yes the HQ units have to have some ability in hand to hand so they aren't auto-killed... but there are better ways around it. Hit & Run, perhaps? Or rather, Disengage and Regroup!

Speaking of auto-kills... the ethereal needs some kit besides that great big target on his head.

Jiggle the pathfinders a bit to make them more common. Even just bumping the squad size up, would help- perhaps to 10, so you can still squeeze 2 drones into the 'fish, if desired)

Scout vehicles (like the forgeworld ones, except a bit more useful, and a good bit less expensive). Possibly with multiple markerlights. (do they fire as defensive weapons?). Not bikes though. Tau psychology doesn't seem to fit biker mentality.

Crisis suits can twin-link weapons, so don't need the BS4. Although the 1 weapon system/markerlight change in the updated faq hurt the multi-track units.

A few more options scattered about the list. Odd things I'd like to see.

Remote-operated Earth caste repair drone. (Non-fire caste don't belong on the battlefield)
Unlike the Imperium, they actually understand tech, so should be at least have the option of battlefield repairs. Remote operated due to the complexities of some tasks- I'd assume the operator would be aboard a space-craft/manta/or similar.

'Tank' Drones. Squadrons of 1-3, roughly analogous to light dreadnoughts or Killer Kans. Non-melee of course. About 3" long, 2" wide and 1 1/2" tall. Jet pack style move. Basic shape is rectangular, with a front section that narrows down to about an inch width. Slightly curved, rather than hard angles (like the vehicles). Bubble turrets on either side, with a chin mounted anti-infantry weapon. (flamer/ twin burst cannon). A weapon fit to make them distinct from the crisis suits. Anti-heavy infantry/light vehicle (missile pod/rail rifles), or anti-light infantry (an array of burst cannons) Twin linked weapons in the turrets to compensate for the drone BS.

Isuran Greifenherz
11-06-2005, 10:23
i would like the Kroot to get an update, i don't use them, but they could use one.

Creamy Goodness
11-06-2005, 17:24
Tau already have their dred/kan equivalent in the crisis and broadside suits.

Scythe
11-06-2005, 21:18
Other ways around BS4:

allow more access to markerlights. 27 points for a Shas'ui to have ld8, independent firing and markerlight is a bit much. Recost the leader upgrade to +5, drop the extra attack. remove the 2 point premium for hard-wiring a system, and cut the markerlight back to 8 pts? The package ends up being 18 points. 1/3 less, not unreasonable for what you're actually getting. LD8, and probably 3 markerlight hits over a 6 turn game.



Why not make the markerlight a basic squad upgrade?

oatish
11-06-2005, 22:07
There is an addition I would really like to see in the Tau list. I would like to see an elite bodyguard for the Ethereals. Taken instead of Battlesuit bodyguard, they are veteran and honoured firewarriors all armed with pulse carbines and another bit of interesting wargear I have thought of.

Are you familiar with the bit of Tau artwork in the "Armies" section of the book. The tau warrior featured has several 'katana-like' blades on his person. With the asian theme of the army, I think it would be cool if the Ethereal bodygyard was armed with some sort of of Katana like blade to supplement the Ethereal's Honour Blade. Just make these Katanas rending and you have given a strong, though expensive counter-asssult to the Tau which also keeps the Ethereal nice and safe from incoming fire. The problem I see with this is the ethereal's death causes "problems" for the entire Tau army on the table.

If the Ethereal's death is change to better reflect the warriors "battle rage" then I believe this squad would be a characterful and welcome addition to the Tau. Thoughts?

oatish

Captain Stuart
12-06-2005, 03:02
No rending HTH weapons for Tau please.

Agamemnon2
12-06-2005, 11:49
Indeed. So far only nids and Shrike have gotten rending hth and I'd very much like to keep it that way for a while. Orks, now, there's a race that could be given some. Something like a 'Urty Serrated Megachoppa, or something.

Aurelien
12-06-2005, 12:10
Except for Daemonettes, and Aun'shi...

And Orks DO NOT need rending. That what Choppas are for.

athamas
12-06-2005, 12:16
hmmm ok, wel this is what i would like to see


BS increase for crisis suit leaders instead of the WS/I one.... makes far more sense IMO

Medium drones, BS 3 and can have a crisis suite weapon, take slot of 2 normal drones!

Ethereal removed from battle field


Fire warrior squads made bigger, and possibly slightly cheaper!



that all i see them needing, with new wargear, and good drone rules!

fracas
12-06-2005, 13:40
tau are fine needing only a few tweaks

kroots though need more options, like incoporating the merc list into the tau empire list.

and then add more auxillary alien units as time goes by

wilting_laughter
12-06-2005, 14:59
kroots though need more options, like incoporating the merc list into the tau empire list.

Exactly. Current Arrangement makes no sense



and then add more auxillary alien units as time goes by

I'd love to see more human units, although what form they might take (human tech or tau tech? Guardesque or tauesque?) I don't know.

athamas
12-06-2005, 15:04
also some artilary would be usefull!

something like extended range, blast seeker missiles,


they are 'direct' fire so fit with the tau background, and are not that powerfull, as you still have to hit, an you will only get 6-8 hits probably, something like a wirlwind!!

fracas
12-06-2005, 15:23
i remain skeptical of the role of traditional artillery but markerlight drones + seekers (with blasts) would be nice and fitting.

athamas
12-06-2005, 15:39
tau should not have 'traditional' artilery,

they should however have some kind of indirect mass explosion weapon, it was the best idea i could come up with,.... [well actulally i thought about it back when VDR was around!]

Warlord Gnashgrod
12-06-2005, 17:18
I wouldn't mind seeing either a BS increase or a Ld increase instead of the WS/I increase for suit leaders. It doesn't have to be both, just one of them would be nice.

Scythe
12-06-2005, 17:21
No rending HTH weapons for Tau please.

They already have....;)

Centurion
12-06-2005, 17:48
This is some of what the Tau are getting:
Crisis Suits are going to be cheaper (30pts) and will come with a basic set of weapons that can be upgraded.
Gue'vesa are getting a spot in the Codex with new models
There will be more Alien allies for the Tau to represent the expansion of their empire
The Krootox are being rewritten and will not take up a seperate slot.
That is all for now, I am sure more will follow.

Warlord Gnashgrod
12-06-2005, 18:10
This is some of what the Tau are getting:
Crisis Suits are going to be cheaper (30pts) and will come with a basic set of weapons that can be upgraded.
Gue'vesa are getting a spot in the Codex with new models
There will be more Alien allies for the Tau to represent the expansion of their empire
The Krootox are being rewritten and will not take up a seperate slot.
That is all for now, I am sure more will follow.

This sounds good, Centurion, but how do you know that this is what Tau're getting? What's your source? You make it sound like this is fact. How can that be the case?

fracas
12-06-2005, 18:50
kroot hounds and krootox should be left where they are but regular kroots come with them, ala merc rules.

Long_Fang
12-06-2005, 18:50
Core Characteristics of any race cannot change, but will be emphasized. This was done in the IG codex (their diversity), the Chaos Codex (differentiating the gods), the Tyranid Codex, (single purpose of the swarm, even the carnifex and tyrant look like big gaunts). This is why unity and the lack of hth will be pushed with the TAU.

Possible alterations:
-Emphasis on Tau dislike of death in battle (ie, possibly remote controlled drones).
-Emphasis on technological advance (ie, already done with the hand rail gun)
-Emphasis on assimilation of races (Tau assimilate and use races, they aren't as nice as they seem [otherwise they would not survive in this universe])

Sephiroth
12-06-2005, 18:53
Crisis Suits are going to be cheaper (30pts)

Because they cost what now? :eyebrows:

Mars
12-06-2005, 19:55
More Elites, Fast Attack and HQ choices, they have too few now.

Kroot options are interesting, a la Kroot Mercanery list, although this does have the problem of increased close combat potential: Tau are in essence a shooty army, and I think they shouldn't derive too much from this theme.

Kroot Shaper Council for HQ; Kroot Hunters for Elites; those Winged Kroot for Fast Attack. Would certainly fit with my own army (I already have 60 something Kroot :D).

Other Suits would also be a logical option, although I'd expect variations (like the ones in the Taros campaign book) rather than completely new suit types.
So maybe some new guns (wouldn't know what type though; something that pins, or decreased enemy movement...), new wargear options (markerlights, increased BS, extra range,...), more armour (2+ save Shas'o?), heavier engines (12" move + assault move, or maybe Turbo Boost), etc...

There's the question of Auxiliaries, other than Kroot; Humans are definitly in, but I don't see them in other than their current role.

And I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a Barrage weapon: something to **** ** those ******* Whirlwinds before they rape my 70+ infantry :cries: (not much room to miss).

Mars
12-06-2005, 19:59
Because they cost what now? :eyebrows:

Maybe that'll include their basic weaponary?

jimbo034
12-06-2005, 20:51
many people here have been talking about lack of fast attack vehicles so what about a light missile gunboat which you have either missle pods or hammerhead missles mounted on sponcers and the option to mount seekers on it.

Derling
12-06-2005, 22:04
This is some of what the Tau are getting:
Crisis Suits are going to be cheaper (30pts) and will come with a basic set of weapons that can be upgraded.
Gue'vesa are getting a spot in the Codex with new models
There will be more Alien allies for the Tau to represent the expansion of their empire
The Krootox are being rewritten and will not take up a seperate slot.
That is all for now, I am sure more will follow.

that stuff sounds great! Ican't wait to field 30 pt crisis suits. it's about time! I will model all of mine with twin plasmarifles and missilepods! It's also nicethat they are touching up the Human auxlialliaries.

Where did you get this info anyway? See if you can find out anymore!