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mr.kislev
19-11-2009, 05:12
I am thinking of doing a dkok army and i want all my units to have carapace armour. I am going to use vets for troops. I really want to use death riders so would you let me play you if a paid 4 points a model for carapace armour on roughriders. And if i upgraded my commisar to be on a horse for 10-20 pts? (i have the limited ed model)

unheilig
19-11-2009, 05:21
does it matter if I would let you?

would your regular opponents let you? that is the real question.

mr.kislev
19-11-2009, 05:24
i mean in general would people let me do this?

Chem-Dog
19-11-2009, 05:26
As a guide, the previous edition of the IG codex allowed Carapace at 20 points per unit.

20 points seems a little steep, 10-15 maybe, it's not like a commissar is made utterly lethal by gaining the cavalry rule.

But yeah I wouldn't mind.

If you find significant resistance to it, simply count them as wearing flak and leave the commie out.

unheilig
19-11-2009, 06:15
i certainly hope most folks would be okay with it...

but if folks don't, no biggie... the upgrade to carapace isn't all that significant in 5th ed, but i can understand your desire to do so.

thing is, are you prepared to be as conciliatory to other folks' ideas for home rules?

also, just make sure it wouldn't be better to just use those points on MORE rough riders.

as for that commissar... shame on you if you DONT do that, and shame on anyone who has a problem with that gorgeous model!

solkan
19-11-2009, 06:45
I'm a bit confused.

Do you want to use the Death Korp of Kreig models in a regular IG army using the regular IG rules? That's wonderful and great.

If you have regular IG guys with carpace modeled on them that you feel you must field using the rules for carpace armor, then I feel very sad. My lead Chaos marines with multi-meltas and plasma cannons will lend your IG models any support they can offer in their transition to nice looking models which can't be fielded as exactly what they depict in the current codex.

I'll be a bit more direct than unheilig. If you want to make a house rule allowing your army to use something, then you must allow other people to make up house rules for their armies. My house rule of choice would be to allow summoned lesser daemons and summoned greater daemons in the CSM codex to satisfy the mandatory FOC choices.

The Orange
19-11-2009, 08:45
Probably wouldn't have a problem facing that, should look damn nice on the table.

hawo0313
19-11-2009, 08:50
I'd let you play against me using this modification I dont see how its utterly game changing that OMG someone wants to follow the background :eek:

marv335
19-11-2009, 09:00
why not just use the DKoK rules from siege of vraks?

mr.kislev
19-11-2009, 09:02
Well if i use the normal dex i save 30 pounds. but yeah i see your point, its just that some people dont consider forgeworld rules official.

Lothlanathorian
19-11-2009, 10:11
I would love to see a Commisar on a horse, especially a DKoK style one. As for Rough Riders wearing carapace armour, I, personally, don't think it would look right or would fit with cavalry. They shouldn't be heavily armoured units. (Yes, carapace armour is heavy armour.)

Arakanis
19-11-2009, 10:32
As for Rough Riders wearing carapace armour, I, personally, don't think it would look right or would fit with cavalry. They shouldn't be heavily armoured units. (Yes, carapace armour is heavy armour.)

Are you kidding me? Heavy Cavalry was the main battle tank of armies in the middle ages. Huge warhorse covered in heavy barding, big guy covered in plate mail, with a big lance/spear, a big shield and a axe or a mace or something to fall back to.

Very, very heavy armour. In fact, heavier than anything we would use today for the protection granted. Case in point, carapace armour is gonna be a lot lighter than steel plate mail.

Brucopeloso
19-11-2009, 11:57
I would have no problem with that, however I'd suggest you to pack extra models to use the points on for when you meet somebody who doesn't allow it.

Kriegschmidt
19-11-2009, 12:04
I would have no problem with that, my brother and I do stuff like that a lot when we play.

I would probably dream up something characterful for my army and ask if you were ok with me doing it - it would be a nice opportunity for us both to have a sort of custom game together.

Chaos and Evil
19-11-2009, 12:05
Yes to both ; I'm more concerned about having a fun time than winning the game... and frankly Warhammer 40,000 isn't that balanced in the first place so I really don't see what's wrong with making up some extra rules of your own.

Arbas
19-11-2009, 12:09
before modelling it (to avoid potential wasted time/effort/money) playtest the mod and see if it gives you a game breaking advantage (I've no idea how it would lol)

A commisar on a horse sounds brilliant :)

Ironhand
19-11-2009, 12:14
No to both. If it's not in the army list (either the regular IG one or Forge World's DKOK one), and I'm assuming it isn't because you're asking, then you can't do it, at least not if you're playing me.

marv335
19-11-2009, 12:36
Well if i use the normal dex i save 30 pounds. but yeah i see your point, its just that some people dont consider forgeworld rules official.

So what you're saying is, you want your gaming group to agree to some unofficial rules because some people don't consider FW official?
I'd say you've got far more chance of getting folk to let you use the FW rules than some that you've made up yourself

Ixquic
19-11-2009, 12:36
Depends. If you are playing against friends and have a painted/modeled themed army and wrote up some rules then sure although at that point you might as well just use the Forgeworld books and skip out the middle man.

However for pick up games no.

Mort
19-11-2009, 13:00
might be problrmatic in "official" Tourneys, but as long as your friends are fine with it its ok, IMHO.
I mean, its not like your trying to gain an unfair advantage, you just want to be fluffy, which is always a good thing.

Mannimarco
19-11-2009, 13:05
no its forgeworld! its cheesy and broken and you need you opponents permission to take your cheesy broken not playtested properly troops! damn you and your cheesy broken forgeworld models!

ok that was the obligatory anti-forgeworld rant, dont worry i play servants of decay and see that statment every other game, you might need to include somthing in the army list that makes up the points for when you meet "that guy" so if your charging yourself 4 points each and have 10 riders thats 40 points, if you meet sombody who wont allow it have somthing worth 40 points to bring out to replace it

i actually wouldnt have a problem with it, its not exactly overpowered and your not gaining some massive game breaking advantage from it, what you are gaining is a fluffly unit who fits in better with the idea of a death rider (which is pretty much a death korp troop who has carapace armour on a horse)

senorcardgage
19-11-2009, 14:48
no its forgeworld! its cheesy and broken and you need you opponents permission to take your cheesy broken not playtested properly troops! damn you and your cheesy broken forgeworld models!


I think you'd have to admit that there are some FW rules that are ridiculous. Most are reasonably okay, but there definitely are exceptions. Some people have a right to complain...

marv335
19-11-2009, 14:51
most FW stuff is over priced and underpowered.
There are far, far, more overpowered and broken things in the regular "approved" army books than in anything FW have written.

Vaktathi
19-11-2009, 14:52
I think you'd have to admit that there are some FW rules that are ridiculous. Most are reasonably okay, but there definitely are exceptions. Some people have a right to complain...

They really don't have any more broken stuff than you'd find in normal codex's, and a lot less of it too, especially if you separate out the Apoc stuff. Hell, in every case I can think of when GW has taken an FW unit and thrown it in a codex, they've made it better, cheaper or both, the Hydra being the best example. The only thing off the top of my head that I really don't like is the IA:2 update thingy where they gave the Lucius Drop Pod the ability to allow a dread to assault from deep strike. Not quite sure what they were thinking on that, but it's about the only example I can think of.

Also, the more I think about the OP's request, the more I find 4pts per model ridiculously punitive for RR's to get carapace.

senorcardgage
19-11-2009, 15:00
They really don't have any more broken stuff than you'd find in normal codex's, and a lot less of it too, especially if you separate out the Apoc stuff.


But you're not using FW units instead of codex units, you have the ability to choose either. You therefore can choose only the most powerful units.

I know a guy that uses several of those drop pods that shoot assault canons at every unit that is within 12". All I'm saying is that some people are justified in complaining when you use additional units in your army.

Vaktathi
19-11-2009, 15:14
But you're not using FW units instead of codex units, you have the ability to choose either. You therefore can choose only the most powerful units.

I know a guy that uses several of those drop pods that shoot assault canons at every unit that is within 12". All I'm saying is that some people are justified in complaining when you use additional units in your army.

Considering it's almost 100pts for that, takes up a heavy support slot, has no transport capacity, can hit your own guys as well, and thereafter is basically an immobile assault cannon, it's cool, but not obscenely brutal unless it lands amongst a bunch of rather vulnerable units. I'd much rather face that than Ironclads, Vulkan spam, TH/SS 2+/3++ termi's, etc.

senorcardgage
19-11-2009, 15:30
Well, we clearly disagree and I don't want to derail this thread any further.

By the way, to the OP, I would be perfectly fine with you doing this.

Bunnahabhain
19-11-2009, 15:51
No. You're paying well over the odds for carapace on them 2-3pts is much fairer.

I do have a full platoon of rough riders, so am used to having to write my own reasonable rules for the command squad, commisar etc.

mr.kislev
19-11-2009, 21:21
And i forgot to say another thing about not using forgeworld dkok rules. They were written before the current IG codex was and i cant take vets as troops. (wont to keep a smaller army model wise)

Durath
19-11-2009, 21:26
In a tournament setting, no, I wouldn't.

In a friendly one-off pre-planned game. I probably wouldn't mind.

Lord Malorne
19-11-2009, 21:43
i mean in general would people let me do this?

In general? No. People play by the rules in general so as not to have things crop up that should not happen.

Would I? I would. But if I came and played you as a one off and you started to explain to me you wanted carapace on your models and you will pay points for it then I would not.

Lord Malorneath ;)

Thud
19-11-2009, 23:57
In a friendly game I'd let you do pretty much anything within reason.

I see no reason not to let you do it. It's just a game, after all. :)

He Who Thirsts
20-11-2009, 01:32
Yeah, like thud said, I would let you do anything, because I would probably try to do the same. Like have an allied force of Chaos Marines and Space Wolves. I mean, as long as you paid for it, and it was a reasonable price, I.E., not buying more blood claws for 5 points a model.

Kriegfreak
20-11-2009, 02:35
Well if i use the normal dex i save 30 pounds. but yeah i see your point, its just that some people dont consider forgeworld rules official.

I use regular dex with DKoK models. Everyone loves it, I'm not to keen on using the FW rules - but then again if you wanted to eventually get bigger artillery pieces you could. Nearly all of my own personal force is made up of Grenadiers converted, use them as veterans. I think it would be perfectly acceptable to use them on Rough Rider horses, don't even worry about the carapce armor though. If you got some cool friends, just use the same points value the veterans use, which I believe is +20 points. Seems fair enough to me. I prefer using the new Guard Codex mainly because of Chimeras and slightly more diversity. Can't stand Catachan or Cadian models either. Feel free to PM me if you want, good luck with your Krieg.

For your commissar on mount, just count him as a Sargent.

Like others have said, in a tournament setting those extra FW units wouldn't fly unless you used pure FW rules. Why not just use the Rough Rider DKoK as regular Rough Riders in a tournament then, not a huge loss being 5+ save. Mostly people ignore guys on Horse Back in the 40,000 universe anyways! :D

Cats Laughing
20-11-2009, 02:50
I am thinking of doing a dkok army and i want all my units to have crapace armour.

FWIW, I found this to be rather funny, when skimming the thread summaries <see bolded part> :)

Also, I'd let you do it in a friendly game, though a 4+ save vs bolters/pulse rifles/shurikats/flamers/etc... is much better than no save at all (and not everything it going to get cover saves, so it does matter) so I doubt I'd let it fly as a tournament organizer.

laudarkul
20-11-2009, 06:52
Friendly games are ok, but your problem will be at tournaments. I do not think that they''ll approve this so think also a strategy without those upgrades.

Lothlanathorian
20-11-2009, 08:48
Are you kidding me? Heavy Cavalry was the main battle tank of armies in the middle ages. Huge warhorse covered in heavy barding, big guy covered in plate mail, with a big lance/spear, a big shield and a axe or a mace or something to fall back to.

Very, very heavy armour. In fact, heavier than anything we would use today for the protection granted. Case in point, carapace armour is gonna be a lot lighter than steel plate mail.


Yes, I know this, but main battle tanks are the main battle tanks of armies in the 41st millenium:D

As I said, I don't think it would suit the role cavalry would play and I mean this in a purely aesthetic sense. It wouldn't look right to me. If he had an army of only cavalry, though, then I think I'd be down with it. They'd have to be kitted differently than RR though. Made to serve a different purpose on the battlefield.

Gustovic
20-11-2009, 20:13
No
Wait the IA5 Update (like me)

Vaul
22-11-2009, 11:19
I wouldn't have an issue most of the time, but if it was at a tourny or a few weeks before a tourny and i was trying to get some practice games in, i would have to insist you change your list.