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mattieice
19-11-2009, 14:41
I know that Wood Elves are a few years away, I was in the mood to think up things I would like to see in the next army book.

Basically all of the models are great. The only things that I don't like are warhawk riders. I don't like that the elves 'surf' on the warhawks and the elves look a bit off anyway. I'd like to see them redone in plastic; a box of 3 for $35 would be good. The treekin and treeman models I would also like to be redone in plastic. That way you can customize something that should be very organic and not clones. A new eagle is a must. They could also redo Eternal Guard in plastic but it's not really necessary. I think the models are ace.

In terms of new units, a spite swarm might be kind of interesting. Other than that I can't really think of anything.

Kindreds need an overhaul. Most are way too expensive and not allowing magical weapons to combo with them makes them near worthless. I could go either way on keeping them and making them more viable or scrapping them altogether. The only one I ever get is Alter anyway.

Waywatchers could stand to be a little cheaper also. I like their abilities I just think they're a tad overpriced when you can use the spot to get another treeman or a great eagle instead. Both are better options.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

The Red Scourge
19-11-2009, 14:45
Plastic warhawks and a little tweak of the kindreds/magic section.

Besides that I'm quite satisfied they aren't up for revision any time soon. 7th ed. ruined my WoC :(

Witchblade
19-11-2009, 14:53
As long as they maintain the quality the book has now I'm fine with it.

Room for improvement:
- Kindreds. Too restricted. Alter is the only usable one at the moment.
- Spites and magic items. Suck. Need improvement to make non-Ancient characters viable. Annoyance of Netlings could be non-Ancient.
- Eternal guard. Have no place in the army right now. Need a boost.

Poseidal
19-11-2009, 14:58
I think mostly updating some things to modern standards, so Kindreds become simpler upgrades with less limitations (though keeping a few), and adjusting the points cost for a few units and the magic items.

I think there could be some more creative spites too, and get a separate point allowance like Gifts.

Modelwise, Warhawks, Treekin and Treeman stand out. EG are nice, but all metal rank and file.

Maybe the reintroduction of some 5th edition stuff, like what's happening with most books too.

Oh, also some improvements for the dragonrider highborn.

Quarrel
19-11-2009, 15:09
I'd personally like to see a skirmishing Alter Kindred Rare choice. The big issue of course would be making them fill a different role to Wardancers.

The Red Scourge
19-11-2009, 15:10
I think there could be some more creative spites too, and get a separate point allowance like Gifts.

You've already got one like that - its called kindreds ;)

Ixquic
19-11-2009, 15:51
Not sure if I want a straight 5+ invul. Obviously it would be better but at that point what's the reason behind magic attacks at all other than ethereal?

Stuff should be overall cheaper. Wild Riders just aren't that amazing especially now that half the game is immune to psychology. Waywatchers could be a little cheaper. Glade Riders are way expensive. Casters are just ridiculously expensive considering their lore isn't even very good.

Magic items are currently kind of 'meh' with some exceptions. A few more hero builds would be cool.

Tree Singing needs to be a recastable level 0 spell (maybe just the movement aspect and not the damage) and the entire lore reworked since it mostly just sucks and the decent spells are too costly. Also all of the wizards should be able to change to Life or Beast lores not just the lord.

I really like their current special characters since they do cool things to the army and generally don't end up super overpowered. If they included Ariel and maybe some new hero (since they currently have none) it would be neat.

All Heroes need to have access to the Bow of Loren's rules maybe through an upgrade. A shooting styled army doesn't really benefit from single strength 3 and 4 shots regardless of BS and having the ability to multi-shoot based on attacks would be a cool army rule and I don't think it would break anything. Maybe a Gladeguard kindred would confer this or something.

ChrisAsmadi
19-11-2009, 16:49
I'd like to see Chariots back in the army book, personally.

The Red Scourge
19-11-2009, 16:54
We live in a very dense wood, and you want CHARIOTS???

That would be so utterly wrong in my book :)

ChrisAsmadi
19-11-2009, 16:55
We live in a very dense wood, and you want CHARIOTS???

That would be so utterly wrong in my book :)

So do Beastmen, and they have chariots.

Not to mention the fact that we had chariots up to 6e anyway.

Odin
19-11-2009, 17:03
I think we clearly need a couple of new units for the sake of variety - I think we must currently have the smallest number of different units of all the armies out there. Problem is, what?

I used to want centaurs, but I'm not sure they would work, or what role they could fill that glade riders and wild riders don't fill.

Beastmasters could be good. Not sure how they would work though.

Something to deal with high T or heavily armoured opponents would be nice.

The list is generally pretty solid though. Command groups are badly overpriced, and kindreds, items and sprites need some work. Otherwise it's mostly about the models.

Lord Dan
19-11-2009, 17:07
I know that Wood Elves are a few years away, I was in the mood to think up things I would like to see in the next army book.

Basically all of the models are great. The only things that I don't like are warhawk riders. I don't like that the elves 'surf' on the warhawks and the elves look a bit off anyway. I'd like to see them redone in plastic; a box of 3 for $35 would be good. The treekin and treeman models I would also like to be redone in plastic. That way you can customize something that should be very organic and not clones. A new eagle is a must. They could also redo Eternal Guard in plastic but it's not really necessary. I think the models are ace.

In terms of new units, a spite swarm might be kind of interesting. Other than that I can't really think of anything.

Kindreds need an overhaul. Most are way too expensive and not allowing magical weapons to combo with them makes them near worthless. I could go either way on keeping them and making them more viable or scrapping them altogether. The only one I ever get is Alter anyway.

Waywatchers could stand to be a little cheaper also. I like their abilities I just think they're a tad overpriced when you can use the spot to get another treeman or a great eagle instead. Both are better options.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

I like the spite swarm idea. Also if they made warhawk riders plastic they would almost certainly be priced similar to Bretonnian Pegasus knights at one for $15.

The mysterious man
19-11-2009, 17:15
I want some new characters bring back Ariel and durthu! I also want a new plastic Lord/mage plastic boxset like the other armies. And yes i agree I think they need some new units. As for rules redo the kintreds and we will be away.

Tae
19-11-2009, 17:21
The main things WE need right now, imo are:

- Better shooting for characters
This could be done in one of two ways. The first it to make all character shooting s4, however my prefered method is to give all heros/lords (non-magic ones anyway) an automatic bow of loren upgrade for a certain number of points. Yes the current selection of magic arrows is nice, but having one shot per turn is utter crap. Even if the free bow of loren upgrade didn't work with magic arrows, it would give the heroes far more usage than they have now. There's one shooty lord build and one useful hero build, that's it. Utter pants for a 'shooty' army.

- Cheaper magic users
Either make them cheaper or make them worth taking (other than scroll caddies). They're too expensive for such an utterly pants lore.

- Warhawk Riders
Need to be a LOT cheaper. Also be able to fly through woods. If Lizardmen terradons (with membrane wings) can fly through a wood then a bird with feathered wings most certainly can.

- Waywatchers
Need to be a bit cheaper (though not massively so).

- Sprites
Need more variety and utility

- Kindreds
For the love of god let us use a mount with a kindred (excepting Glamourweave). Also, make more of them work with magic item combos.

- Magic items
If not implimenting the 'free' bow of loren or heros/lords, as per point 1,then more magic bows. 2 magic bows for a 'shooty' army is utterly pathetic. The magic arrows are all pretty good, but a few could use some work. Magic banners are utterly crap, need looking at.



-

The mysterious man
19-11-2009, 17:27
Thought of a better idea split the book into and have wood elves in one book and have all the bad forest spirits in another (i mean people like Coeddil and Drycha) that gives us more interesting options!

PARTYCHICORITA
19-11-2009, 17:28
I as well support the idea that kindreds need a considerable boost. If they were worth taking it would give the possibility of some nice and yet competitive themed armies.

I wouldn't like point drops in most units, elven armies are IMO supposse to be short on numbers. A boost however on most elven units (dancers, eternal guard, waywatchers, scouts, glade, hawk and wild riders) seems mandatory. Specially considering how crazy elite infantry is lately.

Treesinging as a spammable 0 spell seems like a great idea as well and Lore of Athel Loren should get redone, a couple of spells boosted. It would be nice to see lvl1's with beasts and life lores again.

As for new units i like the sprite swarm idea. Maybe and alterkindred beastmaster leading a pack of wolves or hounds would be cool as well.

Finally i would like more special characters; durthu, ariel, scarloc and maybe some new names as well.

Red Metal
19-11-2009, 17:29
In regards to rules, definately some changes to magic (their Lore is weak) and Tree Singing. I've read that Tree Singing can be used well, but I just am not seeing it when I read over the rules. It could use a bit more movement of the wooded terrain to make it more useful and more fluffly - like the forest is coming to life. There's also a good number of things that are overpriced in the book, as well.

As for models, I would really like to see...

- Centaurs - or maybe some Centaur/Dryad mix, just from a fluff standpoint (I know that WR kinda fill that role already).

- Plastic Eagles are a must - pretty much the only reason why I don't use the current ones is that I dislike flyers that are so much metal.

- Plastic Treekin/Treeman - I'm trying to convert a LOTR Ent into a decent Treeman using bits/tree parts from the Dryad and GG sets; if they can make the Dryad kit so customizable, no reason that they couldn't go bigger with a Treeman kit. Plus, think of all the extra tree-parts that could be used for other bases and terrain.

- The plastic Hero/Lord kit mentioned earlier would also be great. At this point, I think all armies should at least have one.

Satan
19-11-2009, 17:59
1. Alter model.

2. Re-sculpt/recut glade riders. I seriously hate those models, they're an atrocity.

3. More 'evil' stuff. Generic treekin are a bit bland, something like forest monsters or forest trolls (in the nordic style!) would be awesome. I plane to substitute my treekin with trolls with something like ivy on them.

4. Spite swarms.

5. Plastic treeman. Otherwise I'll just do another one rom the LOTR version.

Finally - I think the rules are just fine/great so I'll keave the opinions on that to someone else.

What I definitively don't want to see:

1. Zoats

2. More generic "nice-guy" wood-elf stuff blatantly coopied from computer games and whatnot. If High elves are good, Dark elves evil, then the wood elves should be something chaotic in-between.

Ixquic
19-11-2009, 18:06
Wood Elves feel pretty neutral right now. Don't go out of their way to really screw or help anybody. They treat their human servants (the ones that don't return to Bretonnia to become damsels) decently; certainly better than how they would live back there as peasants but it's not like they are toppling evil villains on a routine basis. Most of their fights are with people invading their territory, which they don't really give any warning before attacking. Forest Spirits are characterized as being like nature where they can be incredibly cruel without being "evil."

Their current background feels pretty much spot on where I like it.

DarkTerror
19-11-2009, 18:44
I understand it's a wishlisting thread, and people usually only wishlist for stuff that they want to get better, but let's also discuss what's too good in the army.

I really don't think there's a lot that's too good relative to the overall power of WE, but I think a few things should be tweaked to be made worse:

1) Dryads - too high value, increase a couple of points
2) Treeman - should not be able to stand and shoot. I'm also not convinced having more than 1 in an army is ever a good thing (although that goes for a lot of army's big monsters, and not likely to change)
3) Hail of Doom Arrow - you pretty much have to be a ***** to not get your points back with this item. Causing 9S4 hits to a unit (on average) is out-of-wack good.

cyberspite
19-11-2009, 18:54
I think warhawks need an extra attack, and possibly armour piercing too, they just aren't scary enough in combat, and if a hawk the sze of a small car landed on my head I would be scared

enyoss
19-11-2009, 20:04
I don't think the Wood Elf book needs much work at all from its current incarnation really.

I'd probably drop waywatchers by a tiny amount if anything. I'd also make a couple of adjustments to the magic arrows and bows as maybe it's just me, but Arcane Bodkins are the only ones that I can ever justify taking, even though I really like the concept.

Kindreds? Meh, they seem fine as is really apart from the waywatcher one which needs tweaking and the Eternal one which needs to be dropped.

Oh, and even though I use it on my Highborn, I'd get rid of Annoyance of Netlings as it's just too good when taken by a Treeman Ancient.

DarkMark
19-11-2009, 20:09
A plastic lord kit is never going to happen so forget it. Whilst I wouldn't mind plastic treekin, next time round, don't expect any new stuff to be cheaper just because its plastic. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen people wishlisting EG to be plastic, and cheaper. Plastic maybe, cheaper no chance.

I reckon we could see WE done sooner rather than as they only need tweeking, and need little done model wise: easy money.

abcz417
19-11-2009, 23:06
Personally I don't want my woodies to be redone anytime soon; in my opinion they're the most internally and externally balanced army out there. The only thing that WE have problems with is high toughness nasties like hydras and dragons and I'd rather see hydra/dragon made worse rather then trying to drastically improve the treeman or forest dragon.

The only things that bugs me about wood elves are the kindreds (they currently restict you too much) and the BSB not being able to take a bow, shield, etc (though I think that being in the next book is almost a given).

In terms of the models; again, I don't have a problem with them (even the warhawk riders) and most of them I really like. If GW made the plastic models cheaper then I wouldn't complain but I don't think that will be the case.

Cain-asmodeus
20-11-2009, 00:54
I would like to see some new units in the army to give some more flavor,

Id like to see a Mandragora or Mandrake units, walking plantforms that has a deadly shriek that kills those who are near them and drains the toughness from opposing units in close combat with them (monster killers). perhaps even acidic blood?

The young Mandrake plants can attach themselves to willing hosts, and mutate their bodies into living bio weapons and armor. Mutant warriors would be interesting as these plants are nuetral in nature, and would help defend their realm in need by enhancing/healing others. regeneration would also help them, and provide them with stubborn or immune to psychology?

willowdark
20-11-2009, 01:04
I always felt that Branchwraiths should have Bear's Anger as a bound spell. I can't think of a single thing that could make the Branchwraith more viable, or that I'd want more in a new book.

Kahadras
20-11-2009, 01:37
I don't think the WE book is too bad at the moment but I'll do a quick run through of what I'd like to see changed...

Lords and Heros - I'm fairly happy with Lords and Heros TBH. They really don't need more choices. The only thing that I'd think about doing is make the Forest Dragon a Forest spirit

Core - Is were most of the work needs doing IMHO. I'd give the Glade Guard a 36 inch range and maybe increase the cost for Dryads slightly while Glade Riders probably need to be a bit cheaper. Eternal guard need a bit of a rethink. I'd be tempted to make them a bit like High Elf Sea Guard with longbows, spears, shields and light armour.

Special - I'd just be tempted to shave points off most special choices except Wild Riders. Wardancers could do with making a bit better to compete with Dryads. Giving them ASF might be a good idea and I'd change the Woven Mist dance.

Rare - Nothing to do hear except for lowering the points cost of Waywatchers. They're just too expencive at the present moment IMHO.

Spites - Need a big rethink I suspect. I like the idea but few of them really attract my attention.

Special characters - More please! Bring back all of the 'hero' level characters from the old book and I'd like to see Ariel back as well

Magic items - More magic bows, less ward saves.

After that it's just niggling stuff. The forest spirit rules need sorting out (basic 5+ ward save please). Spellsingers need to gain access to Life and Beast magic. Kindreds could do with coming down in cost etc. Personaly I feel that the book is still really solid but could just do with a quick polish rather than any serious work doing on it.

Kahadras

The Red Scourge
20-11-2009, 02:31
Forest spirits shouldn't get the magic-immune ward save. Daemons should lose theirs that would make a point in balancing them out.

Geep
20-11-2009, 03:09
I'm surprised some people are complaining about models- WE models are some of the best around and the most cohesive in overall army look at the moment (as you'd expect when every model is re-done at once). The only models that I don't think fit their fluff too well are treemen- They're made from living trees, but look just like giant treekin, which are made from broken and rotting tree scraps.
Switching Eternal Guard to plastic would be nice just for posability- I don't expect them to be cheaper.

I'd like to have glade rider points dropped (and the points of a few other units dropped), but I do like how so many models have a multiple of 12 as their points cost- it makes it very easy to swap between units from game to game without redesigning an entire army list.

Scouts need an improvement- even if they just kept their Glade Guard longbows they would be far more useful.

warhawk95
20-11-2009, 04:15
I agree with alot here, but let me just give my thoughts.

1) Better magic items, to me this is the most obvious one. There is maybe 6 items in the book that are good the rest are too situational, risky too use or they are just plain garbage. Better bows would a be a start, suppose to be master of archery and we have one good magic bow. and make arrows more worth while, better banners you get the idea our magic items arent that good.

2)More depth to kindreds, neat concept but not good in practice. Same thing with spites more variety and more viable besides AoN and CoR

3) cheaper mages! We cost pretty close to HE and DE mages, but get a lore that is not nearly as good and we dont get any of the bonuses they have. I dont want to become a magic heavy army, but atleast make our mages worth their points.

4)Give GR, WHR, and scouts GG longbows. Now if anyone thinks this is OP I would ask you to look at the price of GR and WHR and realize if they got this it would make them worth their points. and scouts become much more intresting choice too, provided they get a price drop and dont have to be equal to the number of GG. Or if GR and WHR dont get the bows then a price drop is needed.

5) TK, slight drop or something to make them a bit more viable. and make EG stubborn all the time.

6) TM needs something, because he is right now looking pretty pathetic compared to hydra's (although what doenst) and even the hellpit abomination. So either a drop in points or a tree whack (one or two really strong attacks instead of just his one) this would help against monsters.

7)Give WW a non-KB shot option, the fluff says they can alone make the sky rain with arrows and are some of the best scouts in all of warhammer, shades have them beat quite a bit right now. Maybe they can make a KB shot or a shot with 2 arrows instead of a point drop. Makes them a bit more flexible as a unit and I think traps are a good idea too.

8) another unit would be cool, I think adding something that can help take out high T monsters would be nice, that cant be used as firewood preferbly. IDK GW get creative on this one.


9) Make unicorns more viable, take away the -1 A from the WD ASF dance, make dragons breath better, allow WR to have two attacks all the time (but a point increase) give dryads a point increase (they are too good).

Thats all i can think off, really if they just focus on our characters and make the magic items better and adjust points and fix alters/spites I would be happy are units are really fine but these are just little things I think would make them a bit more competitive and be able to compete with 7th ed. books.

Satan
20-11-2009, 10:23
I'm surprised some people are complaining about models- WE models are some of the best around and the most cohesive in overall army look at the moment (as you'd expect when every model is re-done at once).

Have you looked at the glade riders? They're just downright awful. Awkward poses and the sculpts are just... weird. Horses are great though. But there's not much I like about the riders at all. Also, weapons are horrible. I feel bad just by looking at them, and not the good kind.

Faces on wardancers and wild riders are also not very good with hollow eye sockets that are way too deep and lacking facial features sometimes. The Eternal Guard have some issues in this area too.

I like the warhawk riders as the sculpts are very well-made but sort of... ugly. They don't look cohesive along with the rest of the army. I've actually taken the rider from one and used him as an alter noble instead, and that's an area where he excels on the other hand.

There's room for alot of improvement with the wood elf sculpts. They feel too rushed sometimes. Like they tried to capture the look of Rackham's Daikinee elves and failed.

Models that I do like include the treeman, characters (alot), dryads and waywatchers. But I definitively think they could refine and define the look and theme further.

I've painted enough wood elves to know the models inside and out, and I think the issues aren't very hard to find...

Eternus
20-11-2009, 11:04
I have just one wish regarding the Wood Elves. I wish for them and all their kind to perish in a conflagration of apocalyptic proportions.





Just kidding. ;)

The Red Scourge
20-11-2009, 13:56
I have just one wish regarding the Wood Elves. I wish for them and all their kind to perish in a conflagration of apocalyptic proportions.

Duh! Thats gonna happen to everyone, haven't you been reading up on the fluff lately? :p

Eternus
20-11-2009, 14:10
Duh! Thats gonna happen to everyone, haven't you been reading up on the fluff lately? :p

Would that be the amazing-disappearing-re-appearing-having-been re-written-fluff-of-never-quite-there-doom?

Yeah, I read it. It was like watching Groundhog Day. ;)

the_picto
20-11-2009, 14:45
In no particular order:

-Orion really needs to be better. Give him a 3+ forest spirit save, talismanic tattoos, fury of kuornous and a bow that ignores armour saves and he'd be worth his points.

-Waywatcher nobles, would it really be over powered if he could use lethal shot with a magic bow? The hunters talon would be a bit nasty but the bow of loren would be fine.

-I'd like waywatchers to have different shooting attacks to choose from, much like wardancers and their dances. Killing blow, S4 or 2x multiple shots would be a nice selection. Keep the short ranged requirement.

-Eternal guard could be S4 and stubborn as standard. They kinda suck at the moment.

Not sure what needs to get worse. Treemen are nasty, but look less impressive next to the more recent monsters, though they are rather expensive. I hear alot of complaints about dryads too. Perhaps up them to 13pts.

Cain-asmodeus
20-11-2009, 17:50
A new unit would defintly be cool addition,

Im hoping for Mutant Wood Elves, where a plant life form (like mandrake) attaches to the Elf and fusing chemicals into the body. Mutating the Elf to Into a Living Bio weapon, and its body easily regenrates lost limbs and body parts. The Wood ELf would be like a Hulk of the Forest....:p

Spiney Norman
20-11-2009, 18:04
I don't think the WE book is too bad at the moment but I'll do a quick run through of what I'd like to see changed...

Lords and Heros - I'm fairly happy with Lords and Heros TBH. They really don't need more choices. The only thing that I'd think about doing is make the Forest Dragon a Forest spirit

Core - Is were most of the work needs doing IMHO. I'd give the Glade Guard a 36 inch range and maybe increase the cost for Dryads slightly while Glade Riders probably need to be a bit cheaper. Eternal guard need a bit of a rethink. I'd be tempted to make them a bit like High Elf Sea Guard with longbows, spears, shields and light armour.

Special - I'd just be tempted to shave points off most special choices except Wild Riders. Wardancers could do with making a bit better to compete with Dryads. Giving them ASF might be a good idea and I'd change the Woven Mist dance.

Kahadras

I'm not sure what to do about Eternal guard, even buffing their stats or making them cheaper isn't going to change the fact that they're a total misfit in the WE army list, perhaps make them skirmish ;)

Wardancers could do with a bit of a fix, the ASF, -1Att dance needs to become the ASF-with-no-other-penalty dance esp as almost every other army has ASF somewhere (or in some cases, everywhere). Also they could do with increasing their base ward to 5+ and changing the "4+ ward" dance to "re-roll-their-ward-save" dance to make them slightly more durable.

The other core units are good enough already, Glade guard are one of the nastiest archer units in the game, they already vastly outperform HE archers for only 1pt more. Also Glade riders are the best fast cavalry in the game, they don't need to get any cheaper.

They also need to look at making the Wild Rider Kindred worth taking, I love the stag model, but I can't bring myself to actually use because it sucks so much.

Needless to say, more special characters, even one or two that are good enough to actually use, would be appreciated, perhaps the return of Ariel?

As for annoyance of netlings, instead of a spite, make it an effect from a magic item, that way elf characters could use it but treemen could not.

Kahadras
20-11-2009, 20:15
I'm not sure what to do about Eternal guard, even buffing their stats or making them cheaper isn't going to change the fact that they're a total misfit in the WE army list, perhaps make them skirmish

I'd just be happy with a cheap block unit and I'm pretty sure in the old WE book they had access to spear wielding Glade Guard units. OK they won't be stellar but they can provide a nice anvil. Make them nine points each with basic elf stats, Forest Walkers, longbow, spear, light armour and shield.


The other core units are good enough already, Glade guard are one of the nastiest archer units in the game, they already vastly outperform HE archers for only 1pt more. Also Glade riders are the best fast cavalry in the game, they don't need to get any cheaper.

I'd disagree with Glade Guard being nasty. The only shooting bonus they enjoy over HE archer is the fact that they can move and fire without the -1 penalty. I'm far more concerned about Dwarf Quarrellers, Human Crossbow men and Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen.I'd also think that people wouldn't agree that Glade riders were brilliant either. Best fast cavalry in the game? Dark riders are cheaper and more durable and the same goes for Pistoliers.

Kahadras

DarkTerror
20-11-2009, 20:35
I'd just be happy with a cheap block unit and I'm pretty sure in the old WE book they had access to spear wielding Glade Guard units. OK they won't be stellar but they can provide a nice anvil. Make them nine points each with basic elf stats, Forest Walkers, longbow, spear, light armour and shield.



I'd disagree with Glade Guard being nasty. The only shooting bonus they enjoy over HE archer is the fact that they can move and fire without the -1 penalty. I'm far more concerned about Dwarf Quarrellers, Human Crossbow men and Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen.I'd also think that people wouldn't agree that Glade riders were brilliant either. Best fast cavalry in the game? Dark riders are cheaper and more durable and the same goes for Pistoliers.

Kahadras

Far more importantly Glade Guard have S4 bows at under half range.

I also think you might be underestimating being able to move and shoot. Being able to completely turn around, wheel a bit and shoot S4 shots at 3+ to hit makes them a terrific unit to guard your flank/rear, unlike High Elves.

But you're right in that Dark Riders may be the best fast cav

mattieice
20-11-2009, 20:38
Far more importantly Glade Guard have S4 bows at under half range.

I also think you might be underestimating being able to move and shoot. Being able to completely turn around, wheel a bit and shoot S4 shots at 3+ to hit makes them a terrific unit to guard your flank/rear, unlike High Elves.

But you're right in that Dark Riders may be the best fast cav

Umm... I'm pretty sure that's wrong. My impression is that you can only shoot something that is in your firing arc. Turning completely around and then shooting seems wrong but I don't have my rulebook handy.

narrativium
20-11-2009, 20:45
Umm... I'm pretty sure that's wrong. My impression is that you can only shoot something that is in your firing arc. Turning completely around and then shooting seems wrong but I don't have my rulebook handy.
It's an about-turn in the movement phase follwed by shooting, not a 360-degree line of sight. Perfectly legal, I use it often.

Rodman49
20-11-2009, 21:25
- Eternal guard. Have no place in the army right now. Need a boost.

Whoa? Seriously? Eternal Guard Deathstar may be the best fighting unit in the entire game.

Spiney Norman
20-11-2009, 21:26
Absolutely, Long bows are NOT move-or-fire weapons which means you can maneuver, turn or wheel to adjust your arc of sight in the movement phase and still shoot in the shooting phase (as long as you don't march). The advantage of being a wood elf means that they can move and not incur the normal penalty, so wood elves are the best shooters for advancing and shooting.


I'd disagree with Glade Guard being nasty. The only shooting bonus they enjoy over HE archer is the fact that they can move and fire without the -1 penalty.

If you play wood elves (which I'm sensing you don't) you might want to check the Glade Guard Longbows rule. At half range Glade Guard shoot with +1 str, combined with their ability to move and shoot with no penalty these guys are frickin awesome. I think that makes them better than High Elves...

I'm not sure comparing glade guard to dark riders is the best argument for making them cheaper, "balancing the armies" doesn't mean you take an over-powered, broken army as an example and power everything else up to that level, as a Wood Elf player I'd rather they didn't become the next DE/VC/DoC. Suffice it to say that being able to move a full 18" and then shoot with no penalty is absurdly useful, great place to hide a mounted spellsinger too.

@Rodman, wtf is an eternal guard deathstar? How can you make a death star out of T3 models with a 5+ save?

As for further wishlisting, I've got one, give us the opportunity for a decent build for a dragon rider ;)

Rodman49
20-11-2009, 21:26
It's an about-turn in the movement phase follwed by shooting, not a 360-degree line of sight. Perfectly legal, I use it often.

Yeah buddy. The no move penalty is great. Don't know how many others use this but if you deploy archers 5x2 and fast cav or something get near them you can increase ranks to form up as 10x1 then fire with all ten archers! No one ever sees that coming!

Spiney Norman
20-11-2009, 21:56
lol, I almost always deploy 10x1 to get maximum shots from the beginning (my elves don't really hill-hug when moving into short range is so much more beneficial)

Tae
20-11-2009, 22:52
Whoa? Seriously? Eternal Guard Deathstar may be the best fighting unit in the entire game.

Seriously? T3 5+AS with 1A each best deathstars? Please share whatever you've been smoking.

VC doggy deathstars
DE shade deathstars
DE BG deathstars

THOSE are deathstars. Even stubborn EG come nowhere close to any of those.

Spiney Norman
20-11-2009, 22:58
Add to that LM Slann/Chakax/TG Deathstar

DarkTerror
20-11-2009, 23:02
Seriously? T3 5+AS with 1A each best deathstars? Please share whatever you've been smoking.


2A in the front rank, but still you're absolutely right. An enormous unit of Eternal Guard filled with expensive characters / BSB is not a death star. In fact, it's probably what your opponent is hoping for.

Lunar
20-11-2009, 23:11
I'm going to go on a tangent and say about the sculpts:

Firstly, for the love of Isha, make Glade Guard in less parts but with more variety, so hard to make them rank up nicely. Without being sexist, there needs to be a more equal balance between male and female torsos in the kit.

Wardancers and Waywatchers could, in my opinion, do with a resculpt, don't get me wrong, the poses are great, but the faces are a little funny and they don't match the Glade Guard/Riders.

Anything Forest Spirit in my opinion needs to lose the comical Spites, the Treeman for example needs to be way more sinister, at the moment he looks like a plinth for the bloody things.

Yeah, just what i think, i know it won't happen, but meh.

Kahadras
21-11-2009, 00:14
If you play wood elves (which I'm sensing you don't) you might want to check the Glade Guard Longbows rule. At half range Glade Guard shoot with +1 str, combined with their ability to move and shoot with no penalty these guys are frickin awesome. I think that makes them better than High Elves...

Actualy I do play WE from time to time but my Glade Guard are usualy long dead before they get anywhere near short range and I tend to find that I forget rules that I rarely get a chance to use. My point is though that there are much better ranged units that you can compare them to than HE archers (which are widely regarded at my club as pretty poor).


I'm not sure comparing glade guard to dark riders is the best argument for making them cheaper, "balancing the armies" doesn't mean you take an over-powered, broken army as an example and power everything else up to that level, as a Wood Elf player I'd rather they didn't become the next DE/VC/DoC. Suffice it to say that being able to move a full 18" and then shoot with no penalty is absurdly useful, great place to hide a mounted spellsinger too.

I'm not saying that Glade riders should be made cheaper because Dark riders are 'better for less' but based on my observation that people at my club don't seem to bother taking them. A small price drop might encourage people to look at them over Dryads or Glade Guard. The only reason they were compared to the Dark riders is to highlight the fact that they aren't really the best fast cavalry in the game.

Kahadras

GenerationTerrorist
21-11-2009, 00:50
I'd get rid of the Kindreds section alltogether, just make certain magic items only available to certain types of unit/character....If that means a Wardancer Lord entry, then so be it.

For example, you would have the unit page in the list and have the profiles for warrior, Champion, Hero and Lord in the same box. A little footnote at the end of that section could say that X takes up X slot on your character allowance.

I'd also "shift-down" or "shift up" a category in selection terms depending on whether you had an Elf or a Treeman Ancient as your general. For example, if a TM-A was your general, then Treekin could be taken as Core rather than Special. Whereas if an Elf was your general, they would be Rare choices. But to balance this, I would alter the Core/Special/Rare slots like in the High Elf list.

Odin
21-11-2009, 19:59
3) Hail of Doom Arrow - you pretty much have to be a ***** to not get your points back with this item. Causing 9S4 hits to a unit (on average) is out-of-wack good.

No, you just need to roll three 1s like I always do! :eyebrows:

PeG
21-11-2009, 22:11
I play WE as my normal army and can see two major needs. First we need a better way to deal with large monsters and secondly we need a way to get a decent magic defence without spending all points on otherwise useless mages.

Kahadras
21-11-2009, 22:14
No, you just need to roll three 1s like I always do!

Lol. That happens to me a lot as well. On average I find the best use for HoD is to try to pulverise an enemy missile unit to help tip the shooting balance in your favour or knock out a fast cavalry unit to deny your opponant a unit that can catch yours.

Kahadras

warhawk95
22-11-2009, 00:25
2A in the front rank, but still you're absolutely right. An enormous unit of Eternal Guard filled with expensive characters / BSB is not a death star. In fact, it's probably what your opponent is hoping for.

actually there is an army called the thebian phlanx which consists of one really big unit of EG, i think like 68 and a smaller amount around 30 something. The bigger one has the terror spite, MR banner, and a GW w/ rhymers harp and AoN lord. regardless i think it actually took 2nd at a GT one year and is quite succesful. many oppenents cant deal with a 2 big blocks of infantry. And the large one has MR 3 so unless it is IF its not gonna get through for big spells and shooting does little even 10 deaths is not alot. so actually EG can be good.

But i do agree they need to be made better some how. Maybe something like a free reform once movment phase due to their nature of always moving through forests? maybe give them AP attacks?

Falkman
22-11-2009, 02:23
A chariot entry together with a plastic chariot kit of the awesome kind.
Give me that and I'd call it a wrap.

selone
22-11-2009, 15:37
I'm an olllld WE player who skipped this current army book. I appreciate if 6th ed is what you 'grow up' on but I think the 6th ed WE book has gone too far. I'd like a decent rank and file unit, chariots and them not to be the we hate everyone argument they seem to espouse.
I can see that the 4-5th army book basically had them as igh elves in the wood with but a little too far for me :p

Kal Taron
30-12-2009, 11:33
Shameless advertising: Have a look here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224785

WoodElfGeneral
04-01-2010, 00:25
I have an idea about some new models.

Centaurs- They could be added in as a sort of mix of Wild Riders and Glade Riders. If they could run around shooting at things and then charge in with spears in hand they could be one of the most versatile units in the game. To make it fair, they could either have high point values or low save values. This would also make for some interesting hero/lord/character choices.

Satyrs- Blocks of half man half goats running around with swords and shields and good armor. They would be great infantry over dumb eternal guard who are almost completely useless at the moment. There could also be a special character satyr who is a powerful wizard of healing and junk like that.

Tree of Life- Basically a tree that gave bonuses to nearby units and could be used like a sort or war machine or something. Could be an interesting idea.

Bolt Thrower- I don't understand why the SHOOTING army doesn't have bolt throwers. It is basically a giant bow, simple concept for a wood elf army.

A Character Hero- some heroic character that is either an amazing shooter or great at hand to hand (for a wood elf) to at least give a special character option for heroes. He could be the son orion or a loner elf who has become very skillful being alone in the wild.

Other than that just redoing magic items, the lore, and the spites would make the army a lot better.

Not that there's to much wrong with them now.;)

Kellindel
04-01-2010, 03:58
I have an idea about some new models.

Centaurs- They could be added in as a sort of mix of Wild Riders and Glade Riders. If they could run around shooting at things and then charge in with spears in hand they could be one of the most versatile units in the game. To make it fair, they could either have high point values or low save values. This would also make for some interesting hero/lord/character choices.

Satyrs- Blocks of half man half goats running around with swords and shields and good armor. They would be great infantry over dumb eternal guard who are almost completely useless at the moment. There could also be a special character satyr who is a powerful wizard of healing and junk like that.

In a way I always thought the Altered WAS a Centaur or Satyr. Though adding these two to the list would kind of give the WE list a Narnia feel. Which I'm sure my wife would like.



Tree of Life- Basically a tree that gave bonuses to nearby units and could be used like a sort or war machine or something. Could be an interesting idea.


Sounds a tad like a WE version of a DE CoB. Though it does make sense as an add to the list.



Bolt Thrower- I don't understand why the SHOOTING army doesn't have bolt throwers. It is basically a giant bow, simple concept for a wood elf army.


I think they wanted to try something new with the WE where the only diffence with the other elf lists is it's fluff. The loss of the bolt thrower and chariot is nothing that I miss.



A Character Hero- some heroic character that is either an amazing shooter or great at hand to hand (for a wood elf) to at least give a special character option for heroes. He could be the son orion or a loner elf who has become very skillful being alone in the wild.

I think all hero's for very list should be better than there standard units.

As for what models that need to be resulpted?? Ahhh .... for some reason sprites really **** me off. When they released the twins on the dragon and I saw all those leaves and sprites on the dragon which I think is a awesome sculpt really pissed me off. Then seeing said sprites on all hero is just BLEH!!

I'd like to see a plastic hero and caster set but like it's been mentioned many times before it won't happen.

Voss
04-01-2010, 04:04
Anything Forest Spirit in my opinion needs to lose the comical Spites, the Treeman for example needs to be way more sinister, at the moment he looks like a plinth for the bloody things.


My biggest problem with the treemen and treekin is that they look like wooden tyranids. I realize they were trying to not make them look like ents, but gah. They just bother me.

Poseidal
04-01-2010, 11:14
My biggest problem with the treemen and treekin is that they look like wooden tyranids. I realize they were trying to not make them look like ents, but gah. They just bother me.

Yeah, it's something along those lines that bother me about them. The Spites are fine, and actually, spites can look really scary sometimes.

Odin
04-01-2010, 12:11
My wishlist...

S4 for all bows at short range.

Command groups to be reduced to a sensible cost, particularly for Wild Riders, Wardancers and Warhawk Riders.

Forest Spirits get 5+ regenerate, rather than the 5+ ward save that can be negated by magic (seems appropriate that their weakness is fire rather than magic).

Tree Singing to become a standard spell for Mages, in the same way as Dark Elves and High Elves have a "free" spell. No increase in cost for Mages, as they're already forced to pay over the odds for longbows they rarely get to use. Lore of Athel Loren to be made more useful, too many of the spells are very situation-specific.

New Units:

Forest Spirit Host - basically forest spirits who haven't got the corporeal form of treekin, stats along the lines of VC Spirit hosts perhaps, with etherial.

Asrai Spirit - an elf (perhaps mage) who hasn't died, but has become "one" with the forest, a rare choice who leads enemy units astray (perhaps with a bound spell that works like titillating delusions). Also etherial.

Gormereth, the Fearmonger
04-01-2010, 14:41
My wish list:

1) Overhaul of spites, magical item, and Kindred. Their not really bad, but there's some that just never see play and need to be changed for internal balancing purposes.

2) Eternal Guard, Warhawk Riders, Great Eagles...and maybe waywatchers need an adjustment. The first three are obvious (just the three Wood Elf units that just never see play and need a boost). With waywatchers it's more of a meta-game thing; waywatchers remain good against WOC or any army you'd like turn 1 march blocking or more shooting, but their specialist while the treeman is a generalist equipped to handle a wider range of situations. It's great to have both but when forced to choose...

3) minor changes within the book like the Glade Rider's standard (no one of good sense uses it, let it carry a banner ir just drop it), and giving wardancers ASF and replace their ASF dance (that never reay sees use) with a dance that allows them +2 to strength but only against models of unit strength 3 or more. And give the Branch Wraith 4 attacks.

4) Give us a magical arrow that causes flaming attacks, or something else that will allow us to deal with high toughness model w/regen the can't be killing blowed. Give us some weapon (i.e. bow) that will allow us to wound high toughness models like the Bloodthirster so that the wood elves only solution to the thirster is not Orion

The Red Scourge
04-01-2010, 17:23
ASF on wardancers.

Broken item combos, that will make DoC, VC and DE cry :cheese:

2+ ward saves on anything.

A magical bow firing 3d6 s8 hits doing d6 wounds.

...

Oooh and and instant win button :p

Petey
04-01-2010, 22:28
I agree with gormereth entirely, except the flaming arrow. Not for balance, just for fluff. Maybe an arrow that takes away regeneration from a unit instead, but that s it. The rest he s on the money for

Sepulcher
05-01-2010, 10:57
I had some time to kill so here are my ideas:

ARMY SPECIAL RULES

Body Guard: When joined by a Wood Elf Highborn or Noble, a unit of Eternal guard are
Immune to Psychology.

Eternal Guard Fighting Style: Eternal Guard Fight as if armed with Halberds, Hand Weapons
and shields, extra hand weapons, spears, and light armor. Therefor the front rank has S4,
2 Attacks, and a 4+ save. The second rank fights with one S3 attack.

Flying Cavalry: As is.

Forest Spirit: forest spirits can only join forest spirit units, non forest spirits cannot
join forest spirits. treemen ancients can not join units.

Forest Spirits have a 5+ regeneration save.

All attacks made by forest spirits are magical.

Forest Spirits are immune to psychology.

Forest stalkers: as is.

New*Traps*: When a unit of waywatchers who is wholly in a wood is charged, the charging
unit takes one S3 impact hit per waywatcher in the unit.

New*Wood Elf Longbows*: All wood elf longbows are S4 at short range.

Hit and Run: as is.

Impale: as is.

Lethal Shot: as is.

Poison breath: as is.

Strangle-root attack: as is.

Talismanic tattoos: as is.

The fury of kurnous: Wild Riders gain +1 attack when they charge. Not their steeds.

The wild hunt: as is.

Tree singing: as per the new spell rule listed below.

Wardancer weapons: as is.

Asrai archery: as is.

Forest walkers: All models in the wood elf army, including flyers.

woodland ambush: as is

Dances: Whirling coil as is. Storm of blades as is. The shadows coil as is. Wovenmist

adds +1 strength.

LORDS
Wood Elf Highborn, as is. 150pts
Spellweaver, as is. 215pts
Treeman Ancient, +1WS, +1I, and +1A. The rest as is. 330pts

HEROES
Wood Elf Noble, as is. 80pts. BSB +25pts, can use mundane equipment.
Spellsinger, as is. 90pts
Branchwraith, +1 attack, the rest as is. 70pts

CORE
Glade Guard: as is. 12pts. Champ 6pts, Standard 12pts, Musician 6pts.
Glade Riders: as is. 24pts. Champ 9pts, Standard 18pts, Musician 9pts.
Eternal guard: Stubborn, LD8. The rest as is. 12pts. Champ 12pts, Standard 12pts, Musician 6pts.
Dryads: I5, as is. 12pts. Champ 12pts.

SPECIAL
Treekin: as is. 60pts. Champ 20pts.
Wardancers: always strike first, the rest as is. 18pts. Champ 18pts, musician free
Warhawk Riders: as is. 36pts. champ 18pts.
Wild Riders: as is. 30pts. Champ 15pts, Standard 15pts.

RARE
Treeman: as is. 270pts.
Waywatchers: traps, the rest as is. 24pts. champ 12pts
Great eagles: S5, two for one rare choice, the rest as is. 48pts.

MOUNTS
Elven Steeds: as is. lord 18pts, hero 12pts.
Forest Dragons: Forest spirits, the rest as is. 330pts.
Great Stag: 1 wound cavalry mount, the rest as is. 50pts.
Unicorn: as is. 60pts.
Great eagles: S5, the rest as is. 50pts.

New Units:

CORE
Spite swarms: M5, WS2, BS0, S2, T2, W5, I4, A5, LD 10. (unbreakable) Swarms, Poison
Attacks, skirmishers, small, and forest spirits. 48pts. Do not count towards minimum core
choices.

SPECIAL
Forest Beast: M6, WS4, BS0, S5, T5, W4, I4, A4, LD8. D6 impact hits, fear, forest spirt,
and frenzy. 120pts.

SPITES

A Blight of Terrors: as is
A Befudlement of mischiefs: as is
A murder of spites: as is
A muster of malevolents: as is
An annoyance of netlings: -1 to hit the bearer in a challenge.
A resplendence of luminescents: as is
A lamentation of Despairs: as is
A cluster of radiants: as is.
A Pageant of Shrikes: Hits on a 2+, the rest as is.

MAGIC ITEMS

WEAPONS
The spirit sword: as is. 55pts

Daith's Reaper: Re-roll hits, Wounds, and armor saves. 50pts

The bow of loren: Longbow. Multishots x4, no multishot penalty. 35pts

Blades of Loec: as is. 35pts

The Dawnspear: Spear. As is. 35pts

The SPear of Twilight: Spear. As is. 30pts

The Callach's Claw: removed.

The Eagles Eye: Longbow with a range of 48 inches, no penalties for range. 25pts

The hunters talon: Works with magic arrows, the rest as is. 25pts

The sword of a thousand winters: Models suffering a wound from this blade have their
Strength, Initiative, and Attacks reduced in half (round down) for the remainder of the
game. may only affect a model once. 20pts

Rageths wildfire blades: removed

Rageths poisoned blades: counts as two hand weapons, poison attacks. 10pts.

Asyendi's bane: Re-roll all missed shooting attacks. If the attack still misses the
bearer shoots himself with the same S the target would have suffered. 10pts

ARMOR
the oaken armor: as is. 50pts

Railarians mantle: 5+ ward save, increased to 4+ if within a wood. 45pts

Armor of the fey: As is 35pts.

The helm of the hunt: as is 20pts.

Briarsheath: as is 15pts

TALISMANS
The Rhymer's Harp: as is. 75pts

Amaranthine Brooch. As is. 35pts

Amber pendant: as is. 35pts

stone of the crystal mere: as is. 30pts

glamourweave: as is. 30pts.

stone of rebirth: as is. 25pts.

the fimbulwinter shard: -1 to hit from shooting and hand to hand, the rest as is. 25pts

merciws locus: as is. 20pts

ENCHANTED ITEMS
Wraithstone: as is. 50pts.

hagbane arrows: as is. 35pts

Moonstone of the hidden ways: as is. 35pts

hail of doom arrow: as is. 30pts

Starfire arrows: as is. 25pts

The horn of the asrai: change must charge to cannot charge. 25pts.

Arcane bodkins: as is. 25pts

Elynetts Brooch. as is 20pts

Dragon tooth arrows: poison, piercing. 20pts.

Gwyntherc's horn: as is. 15pts

ARCANE ITEMS
wand of wych elm: as is. 55pts

Divination orb: +1 to dispel for each dice used to cast the spell. Can not be combined
with any other bonuses to dispel. 50pts

calaingors stave: as is. 25pts

the deepwood spear: as is: 25pts

Ranu's heartstone: as is. 20pts

MAGIC STANDARDS
the royal standard of ariel: unit causes fear, all friendly models in 12" gain magic
resistance 2. 100pts

the banner of midwinter: as is. 50pts

the banner of dwindling: as is 25pts.

the banner of zeneth: as is. 25pts

the banner of springtide: always stand and shoot, no stand and shoot penalty. 25pts.

KINDREDS

Wardancer: as is. lord 48pts, hero 30pts.

Eternal: Benefits from the eternal guard fighting style. May not use magic weapons or
magic shields. May wear magic armor. Mundane weapon and armor upgrades have no effect.
lord 12pts, hero 6pts

Alter: as is. lord 36pts, hero 24pts.

Scout: as is. lord 24pts, hero 18pts

Wild Rider: Comes with a spear and light armor. May use magic spears and wear magic
armor. The rest as is. lord 48pts, hero 36pts

Waywatcher: Comes with an extra hand weapon. The rest as is. lord 42pts, hero 36pts

Glamourweave: Do not require mounts, the rest as is. Spellweaver 24pts, spellsinger 18pts

MAGIC
wood elf spellsingers, spellweavers, and branchwraiths may choose the lore of
athel loren, beasts, or life.

LORE OF ATHEL LOREN

Tree singing as a free spell but remove the damage component. Reduce power level to 3+.

Anger of the Forest: D6 S3 hits on an enemy unit within 6" of a wood or the caster. This
is increased to D6 S5 hits on an enemy unit at least partially within a wood. 5+.

The hidden path: 18" range. One friendly unit becomes ethereal until the next friendly
magic phase. The spell ends if the unit is engaged in close combat. 6+

The twilight host: as is, 8+.

Ariels Blessing: as is, 8+.

Fury of the forest: 2D6 S3 hits on an enemy unit within 6" of a wood or the caster. This
is increased to 2D6 S5 hits on an enemy unit at least partially within a wood. 10+.

The call of the hunt: removed.

Growth of ages: Place a new wood no larger than 6" in diameter within 12" of the caster
and not touching any units ( friend or foe). 12+.

Sugarsw337
05-01-2010, 14:11
I would like the tree singing spell to have different power levels = 3+/5+/7+ to cast, with D3 inch move/D3 + 1 inch move/ D3 + 2 inch move. also if the wood is moved into contact with enemy models it does impact hits at str 5, amount of hits in respect to how much movement is left when the wood comes into contact with the enemy.

how balanced this would be is another thing, but it would be fun ^^

mattieice
05-01-2010, 14:23
I'm surprised no one has mentioned beastmasters, but I wonder if that would make them a dark elf rip off. I do think that there is enough to make them feel original though. I would not like to see druidic beastmasters; I'm glad they got rid of them. When I saw Avatar, I loved how they rode their flying mounts and I think if they redesign the warhawk riders they should take a hint from that movie. The Na'vi are almost a perfect wood elf representation.

Odin
05-01-2010, 14:53
I'm surprised no one has mentioned beastmasters, but I wonder if that would make them a dark elf rip off. I do think that there is enough to make them feel original though. I would not like to see druidic beastmasters; I'm glad they got rid of them. When I saw Avatar, I loved how they rode their flying mounts and I think if they redesign the warhawk riders they should take a hint from that movie. The Na'vi are almost a perfect wood elf representation.

Not sure it would be a rip-off of Dark Elves, as Wood Elves had beastmasters first!

I'm not sure quite how they could work though. The old beastmasters had the choice of wildcats, hounds, bears or wild boar. The cats might work, though they might look a bit silly. The hounds are a possibility, as Orion has some. The bears are not very elfy. And the wild boar just too closely associated with Orcs. Another option might be hawk-masters like Skaw the Falconer, but to be honest what could they do other than act a bit like a hero with one of the shooting spites? I love the idea of WE beastmasters - not driving the beasts on with lashes, but allying themselves with the animals to protect the Forest. But I'm struggling to see how they could work.

Elfboy
05-01-2010, 20:18
I agree with quite a few of the suggestions on here.

It would be nice to see plastics for warhawk riders, tree kin and treemen. Resculpts of wardancers would be nice since the current models seem a little off in terms of their faces and torsos, and they're not dynamic enough. I don't know if they would work as a plastic kit since they're mostly naked and joins on naked bodies (take marauders as an example) look a bit weird IMHO.

GG bows for scouts would be nice seeing as how they don't offer enough for their points value. Point reduction for Waywatchers would be good, or improve them with some of the suggestions you guys have made; option of two shots would be good, or maybe immunity from all ballistic to hit modifiers? Maybe just adding GG longbow rules to their repotoire(sp.)?

I'm against the idea of any warmachines for wood elves because it doesn't really fit with their image: a bolt thrower is too static for an army that is all about manouvreability, and a chariot doesn't suit the woods, I can understand beastmen having a chariot since they're not as refined and efficient as elves and so wouldn't mind charging around a wood in a chariot bouncing all over the plac; i think elves on the other hand would prefer a smooth ride.

A medium strength illusion spell (6+ or 7+) might be good (this was from Kal Taron's post).
If successful, affected enemy unit or model must pass an initiative test (or maybe instead roll a 5+, or a maybe 4+) when they want to move, shoot, or fight in order to break the illusion. If the test has been passed, the unit/model is no longer under the illusion and therefore doesn't need to test for subsequent actions. Actions requiring tests also include charge reactions, and fleeing from combat, but excludes break tests, psychology related tests and characteristic tests. If a unit under the spell fails this illusion test when fleeing after being broken, they are automatically caught and destroyed. If the illusion is not broken by the enemy (or dispelled in the enemy's magic phase), it lasts until the caster's next magic phase. May be cast on enemy unit/model within 18". Line of sight required.
ACTUALLY, HAVING JUST WRITTEN THAT, i CAN SEE THE SPELL COULD POTENTIALLY BE DEVASTATING, SO IT MAY BE MORE OF A 10+ LEVEL SPELL. Or have two separate illusion spells, one less effective, just affecting moving and shooting. The weaker spell could replace twighlight host (only because I don't like the idea of GG being able to cause fear!)

An asrai unit with higher strength attacks would be useful for fighting the really tough stuff, although this might go against the nature/feel of wood elf warfare (units lugging big weapons around the wood doesn't seem right). And bow of loren combined with hagbane arrows has the potential to kill big monsters (admittedly it would require good luck, but this has to be balanced with the fact that success would mean instant kill on a multi-wound, high unit strength model). I also like the idea that non-spellcasting characters should be able to fire bows at S4 when at half range (even if bow and arrows are magical). This might make shooty characters worth taking, but hopefully not too powerful. Also, wood elves can potentially deal with high toughness models by trapping them with woods, or sending them on fools' errand so that the enemy never get to bring them into use. We don't necessarily have to be able to kill everything, just outwit them.... and run away lots!

@Sepulcher: Growth of Ages sounds like a cool idea.

Witchblade
06-01-2010, 03:27
My wishlist...

S4 for all bows at short range.

Command groups to be reduced to a sensible cost, particularly for Wild Riders, Wardancers and Warhawk Riders.

Forest Spirits get 5+ regenerate, rather than the 5+ ward save that can be negated by magic (seems appropriate that their weakness is fire rather than magic).

Tree Singing to become a standard spell for Mages, in the same way as Dark Elves and High Elves have a "free" spell. No increase in cost for Mages, as they're already forced to pay over the odds for longbows they rarely get to use. Lore of Athel Loren to be made more useful, too many of the spells are very situation-specific.

New Units:

Forest Spirit Host - basically forest spirits who haven't got the corporeal form of treekin, stats along the lines of VC Spirit hosts perhaps, with etherial.

Asrai Spirit - an elf (perhaps mage) who hasn't died, but has become "one" with the forest, a rare choice who leads enemy units astray (perhaps with a bound spell that works like titillating delusions). Also etherial.
This I like.

Von Wibble
06-01-2010, 07:42
Hail of Doom Arrow - you pretty much have to be a ***** to not get your points back with this item. Causing 9S4 hits to a unit (on average) is out-of-wack good.

Yes, its a great item. But by taking it, you actually are paying for the character as well, who may not otherwise fit in with your strategy. I like magic defense, wardancer nobles, and moonstone of the hidden ways, not to mention BSB and alter kindred (and bows on those is completely wrong). Imo the other magic items need boosting to the level of this one, not the other way round (and that goes for all armies, not just wood elves). HOD arrow is less scary than the Skaven doomrocket imo anyway. Perhaps 2D6 shots as a balancing factor?

My own preferences

Extra wood is gained in all games.

Spites decreased in cost (apart from annoyance of netlings!). Units and characters may take a single spite (but no magic banner for a unit that does). Does not count towards magic item allowance. Cluster of radiants is not 0-1 but is branchwraiths only.

Tree singing becomes a power level 4 bound spell, that all branchwraiths, treemen and glamourweave kindred spellsingers/weavers get automatically. Rules changed so that the D6 S4 hits can be targetted at models within 2" of the wood as well as the wood itself. Reasons - 1) noone uses glamourweave, 2) enemy skirmishers love to encircle and hug the woods without entering in order to prevent the forest moving. Calaingor's stave would have to change oc - maybe up the power level to 6?

Magic - currently my charactes take lore of beasts if they have a choice and lore of athel loren only gets a look in on characters that have to use it. That should not be the case.

Fury of the forest moved to spell 1. Spell 2 replaced with one that allows you to choose 2 woods on the table and swap them round (units and all) - a castable Moonstone of the hidden ways. If too good them move to a later spell choice.

Fear causing spell is terrible, since WE aren't going to outnumber the foe. Have it buff the unit in some other way. Better still remove it and have a spell allowing the wood elf player to place an extra wood on the table. High casting value, short range to balance it (12+ and 12").

Branchwraiths - increased spite allowance. Increase to strength 5 (so they are better in combat than a dryad champion). Bound spell treesinging as mentioned above.

Treeman ancient / treeman - sorry but strangleroots is just silly. They clearly got that one from playing too much diablo 2. Give them the option to throw rocks instead (OK thats a warcraft 3 thing, but it still works!). Imo the treeman ancient is a really poor choice currwently - does anyone run one without annoyance of netlings? I like sepulchers suggestion for profile improvements to the ancient also.

A bit more controversial - remove stubborn for treeman and replace with "rooted to the spot" (old rule name but diffeent effect). In combats with a treeman, if a treeman loses the combat, then when determining how much he has lost by (and therefore how much to modify leadershp by), only count wounds inflicted on the treeman. So if the enemy woudn the treeman 3 times its ld 8, but a 40 point skavenslave unit who doesn't even hurt the treement won't cause any modifiers at all. Points decrease for treeman and ancient to allow for this (but ancient's profile changes would increase their costs).

Dryads - decrease to T3, 11pts.

Scouts, Glade riders, Waywatchers - use glade guard longbows (ie S4 short range). Name changed to Asrai longbows or some such thing.

Warhawk Riders - gain hit and run. 30pts each. (and that's still underpowered compared to terradons).

Treekin - a treeman ancient allows a single unit as a core choice.

Kindreds - if a highborn of a kindred with an attached unit is present in the army a single unit of that kindred may be taken as core (special if waywatcher). eg wardancer kindred highborn means 0-1 core wardancers.

Alter kindred may not use a weapon of any kind (especially a bow!), but does get +1 strength as well as +1 A on profile.

Waywatcher kindred - lethal shot can be combined with a magic bow.

Highborn of eternal kindred allows a single unit of eternal guard to be stubborn even if they are not accompanied by a character. Eternal guard reduced to 10 points.

Wardancers can only be joined by characters of wardancer kindred. They gain ASF for no points increase. The asf dance gives them hit and run.

Minor thing but a major bugbear of mine - Spear of twillight counts as a spear! I agree that many magic items need vast improvement anyway - only 1 combo for an archer character? And what were they thinking for the pricing of the 4+ ward when in range of the wood - that one is worth 35 points at most.

One magic item change I would want - Callach's claw changes to giving the model a shooting attack, range 6", that works exactly as a VC banshee scream.

Even with S4 at short range waywatchers are too expensive.

I can't think of any new units - spite swarms aren't needed imo. Maybe some variety in types of treeman/ treekin to allow for them being different trees? Certainly NOT war machines - magic bows and arrows should make characters equipped with them the wood elf equivalent - slightly less shooty but capable of damage in combat. Certainly NOT chariots - Beastmen should not have them either imo and 2 wrongs do not make a right.