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blackjack
19-11-2009, 14:53
Here's a game. What unit or character (non spechial) at 175pts or under can beat a hydra in close combat. Not flying around and shooting it, strait up out fight it.

So far I can think of nothing.

Avian
19-11-2009, 15:07
25 Night Goblins with hand weapons, shields, nets, standard and musician (122 pts) will on average win (barely) if the nets don't fail them*, in the first round of combat. In later rounds it gets better as the beast and the elf gits don't get re-rolls to hit.


* and assuming they don't flee in Terror or the Hydra doesn't just flame them to death

Malorian
19-11-2009, 15:15
25 Night Goblins with hand weapons, shields, nets, standard and musician (122 pts) will on average win (barely) if the nets don't fail them*, in the first round of combat. In later rounds it gets better as the beast and the elf gits don't get re-rolls to hit.


* and assuming they don't flee in Terror or the Hydra doesn't just flame them to death

Goblins are so over-powered...

:p

danny-d-b
19-11-2009, 15:17
empire captain with sword of fate, full plate and shield on peg? 150 points

bout the only thing I can think of doing it relibley

hang on just worked it out- even that wont do it prob do 2 wounds then get eaten

wilsongrahams
19-11-2009, 15:22
There are a lot of things that can very easily beat a Hydra in combat.

For those points you could get 10 swordmasters with most of a command.

A Noble with the White Sword. S6, Killing Blow, ASF is not to be sniffed at.

Plus with other armies you could massacre the creature with some charging Chaos Warriors - 10 of them...

Or I could field Caradryan at those points.

There are very few other monsters if any though, and it will either be a unit of specialists or a hero with the right tool for the job. Even a lowly level 1 wizard and some luck rolling on the lore of death or beasts could do well...

There is always a combo that will work, buit it always depends upon luck, as the hydra had better surviveability over multiple rounds than most of it's opponents - a Noble with 2 wounds and T3 needs to kill first or be killed. The aforementioned Gobbos will likely flee if they don't win the combat too.

Why not get a few models out and try some simulations - great fun when you have little else to do.

Malorian
19-11-2009, 15:23
A dwarf thane with a rerollable 1+ save and a flaming great weapon is only 144 points.

danny-d-b
19-11-2009, 15:26
erm- its a large target so depending on how freanly you gaming group is the bret vow of killing blowing large targets?

Bloodknight
19-11-2009, 15:34
Beorg Bearstruck on Bear's Anger should have a good chance (I don't regard ROR as special characters) ;)

blackjack
19-11-2009, 15:47
10 sword masters won't do it. Depending on how they line up. one will be able to attack the minders so one or two dies 5 sword masters will do about 1.333 wounds to the hydra itself. thats 3 wounds with the minders dead. They hydra does 4.41+ wounds back more if a minder lives. Next turn the swordmasters are outnumbered by a terror causer and break.

Kililng blow does not work on a large target though I belive there might be a britonian virtue that allows it...

goblins need to pass a terror test when charged (ld 5 i think), nets need to get off, hydra has 7 attacks, hit 90% at str 4 = 2.7 kills (assuming 4+ gobo as), minders 6 attacks, 90% hits with str 2 ap = 1.2 kills might work. Hydra of course would breath on them use movment and terrain to avoid them, would definatly get the charge with superior movment and odds the gobos pass ld 5 is low...

thane better do at least 1 wound more than the hydra othewise he is outnumbered by a terror causer. What does a thane get 3 attacks? hits on 3s wounds on 3s = 1.333 wounds. Hydra gets 7 attacks 75% to hit (turn 1), then with rerollable 3+ the thane takes .588 wounds. If they both cause 1 wound the thane needs double ones to stay in the fight. the thane also only has 2 wounds the hydra has 5 and will strike first. Hydra also has superior movment so could easly avoid Mr thane and would definatly have the charge. It would be close however.

Until I get better rules on the brit lord I am only seeing 50/50 chances or worse with the best options so far presented.

grumbaki
19-11-2009, 15:56
Dwarf Thane: Axe with the runes of might, and fire, gromril armor with, gromril armor with the rune of resistance and stone, shield, talisman with the rune of fire (130 points)

Immune to fire. Toughness 5. S 8 flaming attacks. Re-rollable 2+ AS.

So he'll do 2 wounds to the hydra a turn. The hydra will get him 3.5, so 4 times, wound twice, and will do 0-1 wounds. The main problem is that if he rolls bad for a turn he'll lose to a fear causing enemy and will auto break. That would be bad.

So for a bit under the cost of the hydra he gets a pretty decent chance for killing it. It would actually be kind of funny to see a dwarf chasing a hydra around the battlefield with his axe. :D

----

Maybe...

5 Inner Circle Knights: Full Command (170 points)

The knights charge. Hit 3 times, do 2 wounds, 1 is saved. The hydra attacks back. Hits 6 times, wounds 6 times. The knights make 4 saves. The knights outnumber, did a wound, have a standard (CR3) and the hydra did 2 wounds , (CR2). The knights win by 1. If the hydra fails a break test at Ld7, it'll break and get run down.

---

Daemon Slayer: Axe with the rune of smiting (I think that is what it is called) and fire. (175 points)

The slayer charges. 4 attacks, so 3 hits. Wounds on 4's. So 1-2 wounds. Each wound causes d6 wounds. So yeah, he has a chance.

Lord Dan
19-11-2009, 16:03
3 wraiths.

Emissary
19-11-2009, 16:47
Saurus Scar Vet with Cold one, Light Armor, Enchanted Shield, Burning Blade of Chotec = 145 points.

Hits on a 3+, Wounds on a 4+ no saves = 1.38 wounds (with the cold one's S4 attack) a turn to the hydra

Hydra hits on a 4+, wounds on a 4+, scar vet saves on a 2+ = 0.48 wounds a turn on the first turn, 0.29 wounds on non hatred turns.

If you're going to add combat resolution, then putting a battle standard on the Scar vet (making him 170 points) will cancel out the outnumbering from the hydra.

Malorian
19-11-2009, 16:54
Until I get better rules on the brit lord I am only seeing 50/50 chances or worse with the best options so far presented.

Isn't that a good thing?

If we were to find something that beat the hydra every time it would just open up a new thread called "What at 175 or under can beat a *fill in the gap*?"


The goblin one really is the best (or any other cheap infantry block).

When I play against DE with my orcs all I need to do is hit it once with a spear chukka and then the flame isn't much of a worry. At that point the hydra can either hide in the woods or engage my blocks and the static res is enough to beat it and after the first round (when hatred is gone) it just gets easier.

Not to mention that with blocks you have the model on the end that can take out a handler.



If you're going to add combat resolution, then putting a battle standard on the Scar vet (making him 170 points) will cancel out the outnumbering from the hydra.

Good call. My thane could also be a BSB for 169 points.

blackjack
19-11-2009, 17:23
Ok getting some better responses.

Inner circile knights need to pass terror to charge, but have a good chance.
Some of you guys are forgetting hatred and the minders attacks.

Avian
19-11-2009, 17:23
goblins need to pass a terror test when charged (ld 5 i think)...
If you are sending Night Goblins monster hunting you will usually make sure your Ld9 general is nearby. ;)

N810
19-11-2009, 17:33
174 points worth of Skinks :p
(come on 6's)

JonnyTHM
19-11-2009, 17:35
In my mind it only takes about 7 or 8 minimum sized units of giant rats to reliably beat a war hydra.

That's enough for them to redirect it anywhere you want (even including failed terror tests), and to not have to deal with one of your opponents rare choices without occupying any of your own. Even the rats that flee from terror will rally with some odds, and you can then use them to claim table quarters.

Alternatively if you want to ignore the fact that a giant lumbering beast is easily controlled:
2 warlock engineers
first one will take a brass orb
second will be a decoy for him

and a warplightning cannon

I can see that pretty reliably eating your hydra.

fubukii
19-11-2009, 17:43
2 str dwarf bolt throwers.

one with flaming one with str 7 :D

Emissary
19-11-2009, 18:02
Some of you guys are forgetting hatred and the minders attacks.

If you have a single non-monster model against the hydra, you won't have to fight the handlers if you get the charge.

darthham
19-11-2009, 18:17
2 cairn wraiths and a banshee if the banshee stand and shoots i think it could do well at least

blackjack
19-11-2009, 19:08
Read my inital post! no shooting or ranged attacks. CC only.

N810
19-11-2009, 19:12
Ooops missed that part....
How much does the skavenn hell pit abomination cost ?

Storak
19-11-2009, 19:17
Read my inital post! no shooting or ranged attacks. CC only.

damned, i just was going to bring up flamers. 4 including a pyrocaster would simply roast it in a single turn of shooting...

but in close combat they can t do it...

stripsteak
19-11-2009, 19:27
censer bearers have the potential to do it, but wouldn't be that reliable at it.

Denny_Crane
19-11-2009, 19:38
The Hydra Handlers have armor peicing and 2 attacks each. They shouldn't be forgotten.

Sepulcher
19-11-2009, 20:18
The Troll King Throgg could have a fun time with a War Hydra.

5 S6 attacks or D6 S5 with no save. He is higher weapon skill, has 4 wounds, and can regenerate.

decker_cky
19-11-2009, 20:39
Skaven assassin with rival hide talisman and blade of corruption would stand a pretty good chance (though would need to get lucky).

Storak
19-11-2009, 20:44
The Troll King Throgg could have a fun time with a War Hydra.

5 S6 attacks or D6 S5 with no save. He is higher weapon skill, has 4 wounds, and can regenerate.

i did not take a closer look, but at least the first round of combat looks pretty 50:50. and wouldn t the terror causing hydra outnumber and autobreak?

Tenken
19-11-2009, 21:08
10 skinks with blowpipes have the potential to bring it down in a couple turns with good rolls. Only 70 points there, go poison! Yes the hydra gets regen, but he can't make all those saves.

decker_cky
19-11-2009, 21:10
4+ armour and regen means 1/4 successful poisons will cause a wound. Not to mention what that breath weapon does to skink (particularly if they have to bunch up to get LoS since the hydra's in woods).

Also....combat only.

Malorian
19-11-2009, 21:12
An etheral BSB vampire would beat it 100% of the time (175 points)

Da GoBBo
19-11-2009, 21:15
Wont he be outnumbered and thus loose if he fails to hit 3 (2?) turns in a row?

Night goblin big boss in a chariot with the shiny baubles. A 115 points well spent, which leaves us 60 points to buy 20 night goblin archers to shoot any thing that is left standing after the big bang. Yes I know you were talking close combat, but I'm a gobbo. We cheat ;)

Storak
19-11-2009, 21:17
i think it is pretty obvious by now, that the true strength of the hydra is a combination of factors: the combat power is just a part of it. movement (in terrain), terror and the breath attack (and the rest of the army) make it strong against the stuff that could beat it.

Xzazzarai
19-11-2009, 21:24
If you have a single non-monster model against the hydra, you won't have to fight the handlers if you get the charge.

Don't you align so that you maximize the number of fighting models i.e. One handler should be able to attack sience you should be touching his base as well.


The Hydra Handlers have armor peicing and 2 attacks each. They shouldn't be forgotten.

With their weapons, they have 3.

The Anarchist
19-11-2009, 21:26
how much is a ogre tyrant or hunter, both stand a half decent chance of at least standing their own.
a doomwheel also would be my chosen tool i think with skaven

Malorian
19-11-2009, 21:49
Wont he be outnumbered and thus loose if he fails to hit 3 (2?) turns in a row?

BSB counters the outnumbering ;)

willowdark
19-11-2009, 22:01
20 Nurgle Maruaders with full command should come in under 175, and have certainly taking my hydra out.

Emissary
19-11-2009, 22:10
Don't you align so that you maximize the number of fighting models i.e. One handler should be able to attack sience you should be touching his base as well.

Whoops, you're correct. The one handler won't add much honestly though.

Against the earlier scar veteran:
3 attacks hitting on 4s, rerolling misses the first turn, then wounding on 6s, then him saving on 2s: increases the wounds done by 0.06 on the hatred turn and 0.04 on the non hatred turn.

The scar veteran is still winning 1.38 wounds to 0.54/0.33 wounds a round with the battle standard canceling the outnumbering.

Laughingmonk
20-11-2009, 01:05
5 tzeentch flamers would probably take it out pretty good.

That being said, a great cannon would put a solid dent into one, provided it failed its regen.

Necromancy Black
20-11-2009, 01:16
I was thinking a naked Old Blood with only Blade of Realities. But being on foot he won't get the charge off.

If he somehow did though, that's one dead hydra.

havoc626
20-11-2009, 01:20
Beastlord with Great weapon, Mark of the true beast and mark of slannesh could take it out.

kaubin
20-11-2009, 01:49
Another Hydra if it gets the charge :p

papabearshane
20-11-2009, 02:19
wight king, sword of kings, Accursed Armour, BardedSkeletal Steed (145) 2+ AR T6 5+KB 3att(4 with charge) bo break test......sounds like a good fight to me

Lord Dan
20-11-2009, 02:44
An etheral BSB vampire would beat it 100% of the time (175 points)

That's a great one, Malorian. So far it's also the only one that will, mathematically, win 100% of the time.

Roark
20-11-2009, 03:08
Not the 3 Cairn Wraiths then?

decker_cky
20-11-2009, 03:16
The cairn wraiths could die on the outnumber if their attacks flub, so not 100%.

treben1234
20-11-2009, 03:41
Anything depending what you roll.

Narcissus
20-11-2009, 04:55
How about 3-4 Chaos Trolls. 4 trolls is 180. 4 S5 no armour save hits. Averages about 1 W on Hydra or more if attacks at the handlers too. Or 12 S5 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds, 1.23 wounds per round. Trolls receive 1.25 wounds back per turn. Trolls outnumber (Unit strength 12)? Possible chance to roll on EoTG with good luck. Have to keep general close for break tests.

hill9969
20-11-2009, 05:26
Since I am a OK player I will suggest a Bruiser with great weapon, mawseeker (+1 toughness), and with Wyrdstone (+5 ward save) 172 point total.

The bruiser would get 4 attacks at str 7 with WS 5 and have a 6 toughness with 4 wounds.
The beastmaster would hit on 4's and wound on 6's. The hydra would also hit on 4's but wound on 5's. To win the bruiser would have to get lucky with the hydras regen, but it would be possible as long as the bruiser could do more wounds to cancel the outnumber.

Not the best odds but OK has a high cost of units and this seems to me the best option at under 175.

Skogla
20-11-2009, 05:50
Wight King
Balefire spike
Crown of the Damned
BSB
Skeletal steed with barding
would have a good chance, atleast at doing some wounds first round of combat :p

TombKing101
20-11-2009, 06:07
hmm. I'd like to try Bretonnian paladin/lord with the virtue of heroism

Memnos
20-11-2009, 07:08
So far, here are certain things that will win:

1) Anything with the Ethereal rule, such as Wraiths or an Ethereal Vampire.

2) Large blocks of cheap infantry.

3) Things that you have disallowed because it has to be combat and under 175 points.

4) BSB with rerollable 1+ saves and a bonus to strength. IE: Empire w/ Dawn Armor, Dwarf Thane, etc.

Let's consider some other things:

1) 2 Ogre Maneaters with great weapons. 8 attacks at strength 7, US 6. If you concentrate on whupping the handlers, the Hydra will flee in the first turn.
2) Herald of Khorne with flaming weapon and armor on Juggernaut.

Anything else?

Lord Solar Plexus
20-11-2009, 07:30
Templar Grand Master with lance, shield, barded steed, full plate and The White Cloak.

4 S6 attacks on the charge + horse
1+ AS
5++/ 2++ against flaming attacks
ItP
decent movement to get the charge

Okay, that's 180 points but hey.

ScytheSwathe
20-11-2009, 09:16
Savage orc shaman with skull wand and collar of zorga would stand a surprisingly good chance of killing it. Especially if it drew bash em lads for ASF and rerolls to hit.
115 points
May as well sit on a boar and be level 2. 171points

TheDarkDaff
20-11-2009, 09:27
An etheral BSB vampire would beat it 100% of the time (175 points)

Not quite. It will draw combat unless it can cause a wound on the Hydra in which case it comes down to a roll off with the loosing side always counting as loosing by 1.

Vamp CR:
+1 BSB
+ number of wounds caused

Hydra CR:
+1 Outnumber

TheDarkDaff
20-11-2009, 09:34
The other thing i see alot of people doing wrong is thinking they can charge in and avoid the handlers. You have to maximise combat so even 20mm base models with have to corner clip the Hydra and have the Handlers form up in from of him bringing all the models into combat.

My guy would be a Noble BSB with Pendant of Khaleth, Pearl, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour and SD Cloak. Should be able to last against the Hydra (although the Handlers are the worry here) as doesn't worry about terror. Don't have my book here so i'm not even sure if he is legal.

But seriously what is the point of this thread. You have got a very nasty unit and are deliberately hiding all it's weak points to prove how over powered it is. Maybe we should do something similar like what can beat an Organ gun but you aren't allowed to use combat or magic, so only shooting counts.

yoshimo
20-11-2009, 09:35
khorne herald on jugger with armor of khorne, 2+ save 5+ ward vs the hydras 5/6+? save 4+ ward. If you let the herald go slightly over 175 then it becomes a massacre (flaming sword @ 190?p)

EDIT: i just saw that memnos had the khorne jugger idea already (although he overshot the points)

Avian
20-11-2009, 11:50
Not quite. It will draw combat unless it can cause a wound on the Hydra in which case it comes down to a roll off with the loosing side always counting as loosing by 1.
That's almost what the rule was in 5th edition, but not quite. It is certainly not what the rule is now. ;)

EvC
20-11-2009, 12:34
Chaos Exalted Hero with Bloodskull Pendant, Mark of Tzeentch and Shield. Kill both handlers easily with the Pendant, and possibly 1 wound to the Hydra. Hydra then gets ~5 hits, ~3 wounds, and causes 1-3 wounds. If the Exalted hero survives the Hydra may have to take a break check at -1 on LD6. Okay this isn't very easy...

Gaargod
20-11-2009, 12:42
Indeed. Draws, excluding musicians, are now just that. Draws.

Hence the Ethereal Vampire BSB will, every single time, win.

For 15pts over, a khorne herald with firestorm blade, armour of khorne and juggy will do very well. Not mathematically certain, but higher M+I means he's going first, and he has a 2+ followed by 5+ save, not to mention 3 S7 attacks hitting on 3s rerollable (first turn) with no saves.


Assassin with Venom Sword and extra hand weapon? If he manage an unsaved wound, that's mostly a dead hydra. Probably then die from then handlers ofc...

(old) Skaven warlord with fellblade. If he manages the charge... Don't know what points are for new one, so can't comment.

Saurus Scar Vet on a cold one, BSB, enc shield and burning blade. 0+ armour should take care of most of the attacks whilst 4 S5 flaming attacks with another -2 to armour leave the hydra in an awkward position. Averages 1 (+ cold one) wound a turn, as opposed to a (first turn) 0.77 wounds from the hydra+handlers. Scar vet draws or wins by 1. Next turn they do .46 wounds - if they do nothing, the scar vet should win by 2, and hopeuflly it runs away.



To be honest, short of pulling tricks with ethereal things, its difficult to make anything that can do it.

As pretty as a Gnoblar
20-11-2009, 13:49
Bruiser with Tenderiser

He charges:

0.41 wounds from a impact hit

4 attack hitting on 3+,2.6 hits wounding on 2+,2.22 wounds multiplied by 2(average on D3)=

4.44+0.41=4.84 wounds on the charge,so I only need one single above average dice to kill it.

rtunian
20-11-2009, 14:04
are spirit host us4?
in that case, 2 spirit host :p

Max_Killfactor
20-11-2009, 16:27
Ooops missed that part....
How much does the skavenn hell pit abomination cost ?

Much more than a hydra :(

EvC
20-11-2009, 17:01
Bruiser with Tenderiser

He charges:

0.41 wounds from a impact hit

4 attack hitting on 3+,2.6 hits wounding on 2+,2.22 wounds multiplied by 2(average on D3)=

4.44+0.41=4.84 wounds on the charge,so I only need one single above average dice to kill it.

You also need 2 Bulls to get the impact hits ;)

blackjack
20-11-2009, 17:02
1) 2 Ogre Maneaters with great weapons. 8 attacks at strength 7, US 6. If you concentrate on whupping the handlers, the Hydra will flee in the first turn.
2) Herald of Khorne with flaming weapon and armor on Juggernaut.


Your first idea will not work as all CC attacks must go to the hydra if they can. (spechial hydra rule.)

Your second idea is over 175.

blackjack
20-11-2009, 17:03
So just look at how hard this is.... About 2/3ds of the suggestions so far = fail.

There are a few very specific builds that can beat a hydra but very little. And on top of athat the hydra gets terror, str 5 breath (better than any 360pt dragon) and free movement through woods.

Born-of-Fire
20-11-2009, 17:06
Ooo, i know, 3 great cannons that have swords duct taped to the cannon balls. They're in close combat now!

hill9969
20-11-2009, 17:13
A bruiser with tenderiser is 180 points. The two maneaters will allow both of the handlers to attack and with the toughness of four they are probably getting wiped out the first round of battle.

Blackjack, yes the hydra is very effective for 175, but in my experience in a actual game the DE player is dependent on them and if you break the hydra/hydras you have a great chance to win the game. In an game I am throwing more at a hydra then 175 points though.

wolf40k
20-11-2009, 17:37
Skulltaker, he killing blows anything, no matter how big on a 5 or 6.
And he's only 150pts.

blackjack
20-11-2009, 17:41
READ THE RULES! No spechial characters....

Sheesh....

Hydex
20-11-2009, 18:13
So just look at how hard this is.... About 2/3ds of the suggestions so far = fail.

There are a few very specific builds that can beat a hydra but very little. And on top of athat the hydra gets terror, str 5 breath (better than any 360pt dragon) and free movement through woods.

lol!
I wonder, are you a DE player who fantasizes each night on his shiny hydra (which, btw can easily die if shot at, even subpar armies like TK can send it to hell with a flaming thrower) or you just got badly beaten by a DE and are trying to find excuses? :confused:

sulla
20-11-2009, 18:28
There are a few very specific builds that can beat a hydra but very little. And on top of athat the hydra gets terror, str 5 breath (better than any 360pt dragon) and free movement through woods.It starts with a s5 breath weapon. It can go much lower once it gets wounded. Lesson: even wounding the hydra has an effect. Wounding a dragon doesn't.

theunwantedbeing
20-11-2009, 18:36
Why is this in tactics?

Whats the point of having something that costs equal to or less than a hydra that can beat it in close combat when in a 2k game situation you can pour 2k worth of shooting and magic at the thing for a turn and kill it.
Or just blow away the unit next to it and hope it runs off from panic.
Or beasts cowers it so it stays in the woods where it cant see anything.
Or just tie it up all game and kill the rest of the enemy army.
Or bait it, it has hatred afterall then rear charge it and beat it with combat res.
Or just throw your uber lord at it.

Or any number of solutions that are far better than "fight it with less points in the phase its most likely to beat you in".

hill9969
20-11-2009, 18:44
I just thought of a Slave giant for OK army. They are 175 points and could take out a hydra rather easily with the right attack rolls. It also has the wounds and the toughness to survive a round or two with the hydra. If the rolls a yell and brawl the hydra more than likely will run and then its a dice off :).

Sure there are other things to take out a hydra with but it is fun to see what you can think up to take it down in close combat. It does help me think about my army in different ways and stretch my understanding about OK.

Malorian
20-11-2009, 18:52
Skulltaker, he killing blows anything, no matter how big on a 5 or 6.
And he's only 150pts.

That's only in challenges.

PeG
20-11-2009, 19:21
I have killed it with a unit of dryads 96 points but luck was involved :)

I have also killed it with a WE alter but that included a HoD so not following the rules for this thread.

JonnyTHM
20-11-2009, 19:48
So just look at how hard this is.... About 2/3ds of the suggestions so far = fail.

There are a few very specific builds that can beat a hydra but very little. And on top of athat the hydra gets terror, str 5 breath (better than any 360pt dragon) and free movement through woods.

See, here's where I take issue. You've devised this game, several people have then suggested ways of actually beating it. The fact that some of the suggestions have failed is immaterial to the fact that this means that 1/3 of them succeed (and alot of them are not one trick ponies only devised to do this.

If that were the end of it, that'd be fine, but then you point out that "on top of that..." yada yada and begin to explain what the hydra gets out of combat. Except that you removed that part! If you want to compare raw combat prowess, compare raw combat prowess. If you want to compare overall use and versatility compare that. However it's a terrible lack of logic/sense to then try to force a restricted comparison and then expand from there. I don't know if you're familiar with calculus, but what you've essentially done is equivalent to evaluating a function at a point, and then taking its derivative from the evaluated quantity. You don't actually gain information that way.

I could equally well play a game called "name a character 25 points or under that can beat a warlock engineer w/ pistol in close combat" and then even if someone (somehow) came up with something I could then say "yeah, but the warlock engineer also gets to shoot his pistol, so he's waaaay better". It'd still have the same flawed logic.

Da GoBBo
20-11-2009, 20:17
Not quite. It will draw combat unless it can cause a wound on the Hydra in which case it comes down to a roll off with the loosing side always counting as loosing by 1.

Huh? What stone did you crawl out under form?

Lord Dan
20-11-2009, 22:33
See, here's where I take issue. You've devised this game, several people have then suggested ways of actually beating it. The fact that some of the suggestions have failed is immaterial to the fact that this means that 1/3 of them succeed (and alot of them are not one trick ponies only devised to do this.

If that were the end of it, that'd be fine, but then you point out that "on top of that..." yada yada and begin to explain what the hydra gets out of combat. Except that you removed that part! If you want to compare raw combat prowess, compare raw combat prowess. If you want to compare overall use and versatility compare that. However it's a terrible lack of logic/sense to then try to force a restricted comparison and then expand from there. I don't know if you're familiar with calculus, but what you've essentially done is equivalent to evaluating a function at a point, and then taking its derivative from the evaluated quantity. You don't actually gain information that way.

I could equally well play a game called "name a character 25 points or under that can beat a warlock engineer w/ pistol in close combat" and then even if someone (somehow) came up with something I could then say "yeah, but the warlock engineer also gets to shoot his pistol, so he's waaaay better". It'd still have the same flawed logic.

Calculus win.

Da GoBBo
20-11-2009, 22:59
So lets turn this into a scenario hydra killing thread. What does the Hydra excel at, and how do you counter that?

machina
20-11-2009, 23:02
Bruiser with Tenderiser

He charges:

0.41 wounds from a impact hit

4 attack hitting on 3+,2.6 hits wounding on 2+,2.22 wounds multiplied by 2(average on D3)=

4.44+0.41=4.84 wounds on the charge,so I only need one single above average dice to kill it.
You forgot to halve wounds because of regeneration.

deggaroth
20-11-2009, 23:49
So just look at how hard this is.... About 2/3ds of the suggestions so far = fail.

There are a few very specific builds that can beat a hydra but very little. And on top of athat the hydra gets terror, str 5 breath (better than any 360pt dragon) and free movement through woods.

A possible reason might be that you are putting so many restrictions on what we can use to kill a hydra.(i.e no shooting, magic, SC) Using this same logic, I could say that daemons of chaos are nerfed, because an army made up purely of non ASF/non LD draining daemonettes is subpar.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not arguing that the hydra is not cheesey. I definitely agree that it's undercosted, but you can't make this decision by restricting people from using units in their armies.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
21-11-2009, 12:30
BRET PALADIN ON PEGASUS WITH THE VIRTUE THAT GIVES HIM KILLING BLOW ATTACKS ON LARGE TARGETS. Worth a pop for about 150 points.

Techpriest
21-11-2009, 13:36
5 Flamers of tzeentch with their Ranged Flaming attacks will Toast a Hydra easily. And costs 175 pts. And I include the ranged flaming attacks as they can stand and shoot from a Hydra charge. Then in Combat they have 2 attacks each str5 and toughness 4 and always get thier Ward and the Hydra will not get any Regen from them. Have used them Multiple times against Two Hydra Army Lists.

ScytheSwathe
21-11-2009, 14:08
Whats with all the knights, my shaman with skull wand of kholeth gets 2 attacks hitting on 4+, potentially with a reroll and ASF, each hit forces a Ld test on its own unmodified Ld6, and if it fails, it dies. Dead. No saves no ward no regen. Dead. Is only hit on 6+ due to collar, and wounded on 3+ in return, is immune to terror due to frenzy. Im still thinking that a SO shamen is the best non-ethereal way to kill it. And then you have magic as well. Orcs are so overpowered....

Avian
21-11-2009, 16:43
The DE army has a lot of stuff with which to redirect frenzied units, though you might have surprise on your side of course. ;)

Nathangonmad
21-11-2009, 19:14
3 Carin Wraiths with a banshe... You can't hurt me I have ghostly howl and 6 str 5 attacks.

Atzcapotzalco
21-11-2009, 20:19
Flaming black knights.

(5, champion, hellfire banner)

w3rm
22-11-2009, 02:41
Another Hydra if it gets the charge :p

kaubin wins the thread :)

SirSnipes
22-11-2009, 03:42
20 skink skirmishers, 140pts and 40 poisoned shots

Braugi
22-11-2009, 03:45
Easy, a dwarven cannon with a rune of burning...admittedly, it takes minimum of 2 turns (and thats not particularly likely), but its a reasonable counter to the Hydra...

Oops...you said no shooting...Hydra is really tough in CC, and most of the stuff I play would have to have something more than 175 to be the favorite, but there are a few good shots...Bretonian Paladin with the ability to Killing Blow large targets, for instance.

selone
22-11-2009, 04:26
Good thread even if its rosued the ire of some players of one of the armies ;)

jthdotcom
22-11-2009, 10:22
If you are sending Night Goblins monster hunting you will usually make sure your Ld9 general is nearby. ;) Plus also 3d6S5 hits from the 3 fanatics....

ROCKY
22-11-2009, 13:31
hmmmmm throgg the troll king :) when you regen you just get a save, when we regen, we get regen when get blessed and buffed up ;)

w3rm
22-11-2009, 15:05
dwarf thane with master rune of smiting and rune of burning!

RanaldLoec
22-11-2009, 15:59
a small frenzied over confident snotling armed with an over sized mushroom and bad breath.

As pretty as a Gnoblar
22-11-2009, 17:02
a small frenzied over confident snotling armed with an over sized mushroom and bad breath.

I think you forgot the huge iron wrecking ball.

RanaldLoec
22-11-2009, 20:44
I think you forgot the huge iron wrecking ball.

no not a fanatic which is a night goblin a snotling its alot smaller weeder and stupid.

AussieSocks
23-11-2009, 02:53
THANE:
Rune of Might (Makes me str8 = 25pts)
Grudge Rune (Makes me Re-roll to Hit = 15pts)
Rune of Resistance (Makes me Re-Roll Failed Armour Saves)
Rune of Stone (+1 to Armour Save)
Shield (....)

137pts, i usually take him and i'm considering an oath stone.

ON THE CHARGE HYDRA (Let's just agree guys)

5.25 hits
2.62 wounds
0.87 failed saves (wait! Re-roll!)
0.291 after Rune of Resistance

Hydra After Charge
3.5 hits
1.75 wounds
Re-rollable 3+ = 0.194 failed saves? Am i doing this wrong?

Hits back =

2.66r Hits (Grudge rune is probably a waste in this instance, but he's my build)
2.221 wounds
1.11 after regeneration

I still have 5 points in Rune Allotment so i can afford Rune of Fire (Kill of Regeneration).

Then it's 2.221 wounds per turn TO:
0.194

I think Dwarves own.
My Girlfriend uses a hydra, believe it or not i have never played her with dwarves.....

EDIT:

WAIT A MINUTE!!!
RUNE OF MIGHT MADE ME STR8, no armour saves for the hydra...

Jetty Smurf
23-11-2009, 04:01
My personal favourite is the Scar-Vet, of which the suggested builds would be fine (LA, CO, Burning Blade, Ench Shield, BSB), as well as swapping the Ench Shield for the Maiming Shield, but you have to lose the BSB so as not to go over the 175 points.

The BSB build is more likely to win (due to the added CR), but I like to roll more dice, and more attacks = more dice ;)

Havock
23-11-2009, 04:47
9+ saves?

Wutwut? :')

Memnos
23-11-2009, 07:28
There's no such thing as 9+ saves.

There's 9+ shooting, which is a 6 followed by a 6, but if your armor save is modified to a 7+, it means no save.

AussieSocks
23-11-2009, 13:04
Lol....

I felt so proud of myself, the fact that my standard thane pretty much owns a hydra.

And my only response was "9+ save"

Dear god, i over-estimated the internetz

hawo0313
24-11-2009, 01:56
Brettonnian paladin 60 pts, killing blow against large targets 40 pts, barded warhorse(mandatory) 14, Sword of heroes 35 pts, tress of isoudale 20 pts, sheild 4 pts

this guy has a chance hitting on 2's reasonable chance of killing blow on the beastie with D# wounds if they get thourg and S 5 to top it of (reasonable save included)

Jetty Smurf
24-11-2009, 02:09
Uh.... my bad ><

No idea why I wrote the 9+ stuff. Shooting, I have been shooting a lot lately, but.... next time I post something that stupid, please PM me so I can edit and save my dignity :p

Let's just pretend that neeeeeeever happened :D

N810
24-11-2009, 19:21
Oh Oh I know....



Another Hydra... :p

Lord Dan
25-11-2009, 03:31
I felt so proud of myself, the fact that my standard thane pretty much owns a hydra.

I think "pretty much owns" is a bit of an overstatement. You're only beating it by 1 point on an average combat, because it brings a static CR of 1 for outnumbering you. More importantly on the inevitable turn you whiff your rolls or the Hydra makes it's regen saves and you do nothing, you have to roll double 1's for your leadership for being outnumbered by a terror (fear) causing unit.

Bassik
25-11-2009, 08:33
A Doomwheel!:D

SatireSphere
25-11-2009, 12:13
5 Gobbo Bolt throwers.

AussieSocks
25-11-2009, 13:40
@ Lord Dan

Flaming weapons dude, no regen. It's a pretty safe bet to assume at most i'd take 1 wound a turn (that's fairly bad luck)

Average i'd deal 2, (i can live with dealing 1 wound and drawing combat)

The Glory is that "Whiffing" the rolls is so hard, re-rolls to hit (3s), wounding on 2s, .1 wounds suffered per turn etc... As far as math-hammering a crazy rare choice beastie in a crazy overpowered book goes. (also 40points cheaper and a hero slot as opposed to a rare, so i am substantially cheaper)

Thane pretty much owned it :)

ROCKY
25-11-2009, 19:13
lol lets see two turns of cannon fire, or a nice juicy hellblaster u can have both for a cheap 210pts! or why not end this discussion and u can take 3 hydras and i will take a blood thirster with dark insanity and the fire storm blade. gg :)

GutterRunner
25-11-2009, 21:09
Vampire. Make him Ethereal. half a steam tank and the Hydra loses 100% of the time, or does it have magic attacks, I am sure it doesn't. Do I win a prize?

fall3nang3l
25-11-2009, 21:18
A Vargulf is the exact same points. Which means it should have a fairly decent chance...........right....


GW... I hate you -.-

zeekill
26-11-2009, 15:08
If you have a single non-monster model against the hydra, you won't have to fight the handlers if you get the charge.

Yes you do. The "maximize" rule means you MUST be in base to base contact with as many enemy models as you can, you cant hold back, meaning: H=Hydra D=Dark Elf Handler C=your character

HH
HH
HHDD
....C

In base contact with everything

or

..HH
..HH
DHHD
.C

In base contact with 1 handler and the Hydra.

sulla
26-11-2009, 19:57
A Vargulf is the exact same points. Which means it should have a fairly decent chance...........right....


GW... I hate you -.-3 wraiths are cheaper than the hydra so it should have fairly decent chance.........right.....
40 zombies with musc and flag are cheaper than a hydra. It should deal with them in no time as well.......right.....

(Horses for courses?)

WoodElfGeneral
27-11-2009, 00:03
Chuck Norris:D
lol

wolf40k
27-11-2009, 00:31
Chuck Norris:D
lol

no special characters:evilgrin:

SatireSphere
27-11-2009, 12:38
Yes you do. The "maximize" rule means you MUST be in base to base contact with as many enemy models as you can, you cant hold back, meaning: H=Hydra D=Dark Elf Handler C=your character

HH
HH
HHDD
....C

In base contact with everything

or

..HH
..HH
DHHD
.C

In base contact with 1 handler and the Hydra.

Or, in the more likely occasion where the hydra and handlers are not on the exact same plane, perpendicular to you and you are on the edge of your charge range, you are able to avoid the hydra.

Copella
27-11-2009, 13:21
Or, in the more likely occasion where the hydra and handlers are not on the exact same plane, perpendicular to you and you are on the edge of your charge range, you are able to avoid the hydra.

Monster and Handler rules. You have to reach the hydra to charge it, not just the handlers.

I can't believe this thread is still going. It should be pretty clear 100 pt cannon/RBT/Hellblaster etc. does the job pretty well.

Reinnon
27-11-2009, 13:45
Vampire. Make him Ethereal. half a steam tank and the Hydra loses 100% of the time, or does it have magic attacks, I am sure it doesn't. Do I win a prize?

It does outnumber you though...

Make the vampire a BSB and you have something that can never lose, you can still draw.

kraken
27-11-2009, 13:46
what about armies that don't hace access to a big gun thingy ? I usually end up using things that cost loads to kill the damn thing.

If only the hellcannon were flaming *sulk*

Onisuzume
27-11-2009, 13:48
Empire character with Van Horstmann's Speculum?
Seneschal of the Knights of the White Wolf with Stormhammer and Warhorse?
Two Salamander Hunting Packs? (although that includes shooting...)

danny-d-b
27-11-2009, 14:03
Empire character with Van Horstmann's Speculum?

erm you can't challange a hydra!

Croaker2
27-11-2009, 14:13
I'd echo what someone said earlier - I got lucky once and beat a hydra with a unit of 30 NG with spears. Won by combat res and ran him down.

Nathangonmad
27-11-2009, 14:41
Etheral Vampire with BSB

sulla
28-11-2009, 00:53
what about armies that don't hace access to a big gun thingy ? I usually end up using things that cost loads to kill the damn thing.

If only the hellcannon were flaming *sulk*Flickering fire is a pretty big gun. Why don't you start with 3 mages casting that at him each turn, then finish him off with a chariot or knights? Or 3 castings of magnificent buboes on the handlers(whichever you prefer for your mages really). Even a single dead handler is a panic test. 2 dead is a monster reaction test and a good chance of a useless beast.