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Hrw-Amen
19-11-2009, 16:34
I cannot remember how this happened. I know that people say Squats were eaten by 'nids and all well and good.

But in the real world how did GW get rid of them. As I recall one minute they are in the stores the next they are not. I don't remember any actual announcement about them stopping them. I may be wrong andjust not recall it, but then I don't remember one for Chaos Dwarfs in WFB either?

I was just wondering as several of the codex have been skipped and I also lots of models are only on the website and no longer stocked in the stores. Is it possible that thngs like Dark Eldar, who seam to have only had one codex with a minor update and nothing for years along with SOB/WH/DH etc.

I was just thinking would they go the same way? Already it appears that the majority of the figures for them, (Being the metal ones I think?) appear to be very limited if in stock at all when I go to the GW store.

Will I go in one day and just be told that the Inquisition and Dark Eldar have been eaten by 'nids and they will just quietly go the same way as Squats?

marv335
19-11-2009, 16:36
The squats were just dropped.
other than the "get you by" stuff in 2nd ed 40k, they've never had rules.
they stopped producing them, didn't write rules for them, and that was that.

Hypaspist
19-11-2009, 16:37
*Resets Clock*

The Nids eating the Squats was GW's in-universe 'Rationale' for stopping supporting the squats.

They have also said that there will be no currently supported army (ie army with a codex in print) that will be given the squat treatment, so you don't need to worry about the DE/Sisters/GK etc.

Thats doesn't mean they might not change radically, but it does mean they will continue to get support.

That said, I would have though that this would have come up on an advanced search function?

Mort
19-11-2009, 16:44
Uhhm, hopefully not.

GW has stated clearly that DE wont be discontinued, its just a matter of time until they get a new book. The Problem is that they have to re-do the whole rules set, the miniature range and most of all the whole fluff for them before they get relauched.

Obviously writing a new book and designing new models takes about a decade and a half.

The Problem with the Squats was that GW didnt know where to go with the army, they werent fond of a horde of biker dwarfs in space.
DE will get a new codex one day, and that day my grandson will roll my Wheelchair into a GW Store to buy the new book for me.

IJW
19-11-2009, 16:52
other than the "get you by" stuff in 2nd ed 40k, they've never had rules.
What, apart from the rules in the RT rulebook and in WD111 (later reprinted in a compendium somewhere)? ;)

Logarithm Udgaur
19-11-2009, 17:37
Funnily enough, Squats are what first attracted me to games workshop back in '91. I remember looking at the back of a "How to Paint Citadel Miniatures" booklet and seeing a diorama of Squats vs. Orks in an underground warren, and thinking "this is the coolest thing I have ever seen, dwarves vs. orks in space with laser cannons."

Leftenant Gashrog
19-11-2009, 17:44
They have also said that there will be no currently supported army (ie army with a codex in print) that will be given the squat treatment, so you don't need to worry about the DE/Sisters/GK etc.


Then again when the Storm of Chaos campaign came out for Fantasy GW explicitly stated that the armies contained therein were not campaign specific and would remain legal even after the campaign ended.. then what did they do? banned all the lists on the grounds that they were campaign specific and never intended to be used further.

Bregalad
19-11-2009, 17:46
Well, any kind of search would have given you dozens of threads answering your question.
Anyway, here is the major squat thread for everything you might want to know:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46402

Cry of the Wind
19-11-2009, 19:15
Well, any kind of search would have given you dozens of threads answering your question.
Anyway, here is the major squat thread for everything you might want to know:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46402

That didn't really answer his question though...

I'm curious too, marv335, you say they just dropped them with no fanfare at all? As in they just took the models off the shelf or stopped getting new orders/taking orders. Did they run out of stock or is there a warehouse somewhere with a bunch of them somewhere (also known as the houses of staff around at the time).

When did Jervis give his talk about them being removed, was that years after?

Hadafix
19-11-2009, 19:22
If you have them, I know that some people use the Guard Codex for them.

And Chaos Dwarfs still get a mention in the WFB rule book and are part of the Chaos Hell Cannon crew, so in a way, still out there.

IJW
19-11-2009, 19:51
When did Jervis give his talk about them being removed, was that years after?
Yes, that was years after, at least a whole edition of 40k.

From what i can remember, they just sold off the old stock until they were gone, with some going in the occasional sales.

Shadowheart
19-11-2009, 20:17
The second edition starter set and the Dark Millennium expansion released shortly thereafter included Squats alongside the other armies of the time. At that time GW evidently planned to release a Codex and new miniature range for them. Sometime over the next years that must've changed, but they never said so. Squats simply stopped being mentioned in White Dwarf, didn't get a Codex and GW acted as they never existed.

I imagine the miniatures were quietly removed/sold off in a similar manner. Not many people were paying attention to the Squats at that point anyway - everything else had been updated and was looking a lot shinier.

The Squats weren't the only models that disappeared, either. The Genestealer Cult models and the Arbitrators, for instance. And there were significant gaps between some minis and their eventual replacements - like the Sentinels and especially the Land Raider.

Of course that was before the internet and hyperactive message boards.

AndrewGPaul
19-11-2009, 20:32
After the Squats had pretty much disappeared from 40K, there were still releases for them in Epic - WD 180-something had the Squat Cyclops super-heavy war engine, for instance. That was pretty much a last gasp, although there was an official army list for Epic 40,000 published in the Citadel Journal, around issues 17-19 or so.

wilycoyote
19-11-2009, 21:48
GW squats are dead - long live the Scrunts

Check out Bob Olleys marvellous sculpts, ideal for a IG themed diminuative army.

WilyC

ICEMANQ
19-11-2009, 21:49
I can't understand this obsession with Squats. Dwarves in space? Lol?

Mannimarco
19-11-2009, 21:57
its nostalgia, we want them because you cant get them anymore

i was the same with the nurgle palanquin and forgeworld plaguebearer, once somthing is no longer available it becomes highly sought after

grissom2006
19-11-2009, 22:00
Lets see lots of fan based answers to this and a number of conflicting ones that did come from GW as to why they was dropped. The main one that crops up time and time again though is that Squats simply didn't fit inot GW's vision of what 40K was like when they was dealing with the 2nd Edition.

Cats Laughing
19-11-2009, 22:25
<snip>

Of course that was before the internet and hyperactive message boards.

Bah Humbug! We had newsgroups and mailing lists in the mid/early 90s. It's these forum things that are "new."

I remember posting an Eldar Exodite "codex" as well as rules for Bonesingers, multiple new aspects, all for 2nd Edition rules. As well as the few cries of outrage that a "brand new race" was being released (Tyranids) when Squats didn't have a proper codex yet...

:)

[On topic] I do believe, they just stopped being mentioned, stopped being restocked, and eventually just disappeared.

IIRC, when 3rd was released (or perhaps the 3rd Ed Tyranid codex) there was a map of tyranid invasions, showing the "Retcon" invasion plowing through the area former occupied by the squat homeworld. At this point most people considered the demise of squats to be confirmed and finally GW designers spoke out about how they thought squats (space dwarf bikers) were a silly idea to begin with and they weren't going to do anything with the idea.

Dark_Templar
19-11-2009, 22:26
This clock is going to end up broken with the amount of resets it has had.

OT: I am pretty sure that some Squats survived. I highly doubt they were all having a Christmas party together in the one place when all of a sudden the Nids came along.

Anywho, I would like to see them back. I am a SM player who would be happy to see some of the SM codices dropped or rolled into a larger dex if it meant seeing some new races pop-up.

Jackmojo
19-11-2009, 22:34
After the Squats had pretty much disappeared from 40K, there were still releases for them in Epic - WD 180-something had the Squat Cyclops super-heavy war engine, for instance.

Second Edition Space Marine (a.k.a. Epic 40k) was basically the heyday of the Squats, good rules, good miniatures, good concepts, they just never figured out how to move all those cool giant vehicles into 40k, course these days with Super Heavies for sale and Apocalypse it might have worked out better.

Jack...still wants ot make a 40k scale Squat Land Train.

Deadmanwade
19-11-2009, 23:38
Nah, only Necrons phase out.

Cheeslord
19-11-2009, 23:47
Squats were my favourite army in the Olden Days ... I never felt they were that great in Epic once Titan legions came out (making a Warlord the same cost as a Colossus) - their super heavy vehicles were soooo easy to kill compared to titans.

Anyway, i don't see why Squats had to be bikers - was it the beards? fantasy Dwarves didn't use Cavalry as much as other races so why should future dwarves? I saw the Dwarved traits as being conservative, slow, defensive, reliable (they would tend to use "conventional" weapons but they would be well made with plenty of firepower, lots of Stubborn units, T4 (obviously)), good, but slow,armour, Artillery...

Also being miners and tunnelers, lots of Engineering powers (modify terrain, tunnels, moles/termites, sappers, field fortification (actually built DURING the battle)) as well as Earth-based powers (seismic charges, quakes, fissures etc.)

Mark.

Sinner_74
20-11-2009, 01:58
Cheeslord, you beat me to the punch with my thoughts...

The Squats were always divided in to 2 seperate organizations, they weren't all bikers - the Households: which included the Warlord and his Hearthguard, Living Ancestors, and brotherhood weapons teams and combat squads; and the Guild: which included the Guildmasters, bikers and weapons trikes... They could be made up as entirely seperate armies OR you could play a combination force... Of course there was also plenty of fluff (and Paul Bonners incredible art) that stated that Squats would make up entire regiments of the Imperial Army...

I really don't understand how GW couldn't have fit them in to the current incarnation of the 40K universe, I think there are plenty of paths to take them down. Being eaten by a bunch of oversized, rabid bugs is pretty lame way for such a noble race to be eliminated...

rabblerouser
20-11-2009, 02:04
The Problem with the Squats was that GW didnt know where to go with the army, they werent fond of a horde of biker dwarfs in space.

But evil space elves are OK :rolleyes:

simonr1978
20-11-2009, 02:17
I really don't understand how GW couldn't have fit them in to the current incarnation of the 40K universe, I think there are plenty of paths to take them down. Being eaten by a bunch of oversized, rabid bugs is pretty lame way for such a noble race to be eliminated...

As I understood it that began as a throw-away comment at a convention by someone exasperated at being asked for the umpteenth time what was happening to the Squats and over time became the official reason.

I can't remember the exact wording but I'm sure someone could link you to the horses mouth version of why Squats were dropped, but IIRC in summary it was because they wanted to try and seperate Fantasy and 40K, they felt the biker-dwarfs in space theme no longer fitted 40K, they had a stupid sounding name and, perhaps most importantly, there was no one in the studio at the time interested enough in them to champion their cause and re-envision them at the time of 2nd Edition.

Poor sales were emphatically denied as being a reason, although to be honest I have my doubts about that, almost everyone I knew who played 40K in the late RT days had a Squat army. Well, they had one planned at any rate :rolleyes: hardly anyone actually bought any figures (Myself included). I can't help thinking that if half those who are enthusiastic about Squats now had actually bought a small army back in the early-mid 90s they might not have wound up as a hivefleet's breakfast snack.

rabblerouser
20-11-2009, 02:28
Nah, only Necrons phase out.

ahahahahah awesome

Sinner_74
20-11-2009, 02:59
As I understood it that began as a throw-away comment at a convention by someone exasperated at being asked for the umpteenth time what was happening to the Squats and over time became the official reason.

I can't remember the exact wording but I'm sure someone could link you to the horses mouth version of why Squats were dropped, but IIRC in summary it was because they wanted to try and seperate Fantasy and 40K, they felt the biker-dwarfs in space theme no longer fitted 40K, they had a stupid sounding name and, perhaps most importantly, there was no one in the studio at the time interested enough in them to champion their cause and re-envision them at the time of 2nd Edition.

Poor sales were emphatically denied as being a reason, although to be honest I have my doubts about that, almost everyone I knew who played 40K in the late RT days had a Squat army. Well, they had one planned at any rate :rolleyes: hardly anyone actually bought any figures (Myself included). I can't help thinking that if half those who are enthusiastic about Squats now had actually bought a small army back in the early-mid 90s they might not have wound up as a hivefleet's breakfast snack.

The group I played with back in the old RT days did put our money where it counted - at least 3 of us owned a significant amount of Squats - both plastic and metal... Of course over time as we have all grown up and apart, most of those have been ebayed off, or just forgotten about in a basement somewhere... Of a group of about 8 of us, there are only 3 of us left that still play... And I'm the last one left with any of the little guys - I have enough for a counts-as infantry platoon, complete with a squat commisar, for my guard army...

And that's the part that bothered me, too. If sales of the little buggers were still going well, then why drop them? It doesn't make good business sense...

Now I just need to find a large cache of plastic squat arms so I can finish my guys off...

Ironmonger
20-11-2009, 04:17
I just got a blister of 5 pewter Squats on ebay like... 5 minutes ago:p

The Squats don't exist, you say? I beg to differ! (check out my project thread):angel:

havokas
20-11-2009, 07:31
there's been a bunch of hints towards squats still being around, only their main planets were ever destroyed by nids, i belive the Tau and Space marine codex both make mention to some kind of small statured engineer race.
if they were part of the imperium then they would have been inducted into the guard armys and its not possible that they were all on their planets when the nids came. possibly entire regiments of just squats around while others were enginers.

The Custodian
20-11-2009, 08:44
I like the explanation the guy at my GW had, they were all shoved into drop pods, that is why drop pods have BS 4 instead ofthe usual BS 2 automated machines have...

Narf
20-11-2009, 08:47
theres also mention of them in the eisenhorn trilogy (the shipmaster goes on about them being related or some such)

theres mention of golgotha in the gunheads book, which IRC was a homeworld, attacked/destroyed by ghazgul

and of course the ian watson 1980/1990 stories inquisitor/chaos child/harliquin and the short stories in deathwing



the newer codex stuff bring a new race called demiurg (??) bearing remarkable similarities to squats into teh picture

Murphy's law
20-11-2009, 09:23
But evil space elves are OK :rolleyes:

The Eldar have a much more interesting background and models.(never played or collected them though and never will)
Eldar and Dark Eldar remind me somehow about Vulcans and Romulans.
(while they're obviously elves)

Squat players often tend to be annoying...
Pulling out their dwarf bikers mentioning that "this is the only REAL army".

I don't miss Squats.
I really don't.

ZamOne
20-11-2009, 10:51
I can't understand this obsession with Squats. Dwarves in space? Lol?

As opposed to space elves/dark elves? space orcs, space empire, and space chaos?

Blood, it's just fantasy in space with more grimdark than might be healthy, we want our squats again because out favorite space-fantasy setting just doesn't feel right without spess dorfs.

sigur
20-11-2009, 11:16
..., i belive the Tau and Space marine codex both make mention to some kind of small statured engineer race.

They're just doing this to taunt us. There'll never be Squats released any more. Maybe short, stout aliens with Ferengi ears and trunks, but no Squats.

The thing about Squat formations in the Imperial Guard is a good piece of fluff but not quite possible any more since the increasement of absolute inter-army HATRED as well as cranking up the fascist/fundamentalist aspect about the Imperium which makes everything more convenient due to fascism making everything so easy and it gives you silly slogans to yell.

So there basically seems to be no place for Squats in the IG any more. It's surprising that there's still Ratlings (who look like monsters now) and Ogryns around any more.



edit:

Blood, it's just fantasy in space with more grimdark than might be healthy, we want our squats again because out favorite space-fantasy setting just doesn't feel right without spess dorfs.

Forget what I just said. ZamOne hit the nail on the head about what 40k is. Not sure if I want Squats "back" because I fear what GW would make of them now (but just imagine what they COULD make of them *drools*) but they should be acknowledged as a part of the universe and as what they are because the concept itself is pretty good - the different approach to technology, the traditional dwarven character traits, the whole ancestors cult and so on. There are amusing elements to them as well as very melancholic aspects.

Brimstone
20-11-2009, 11:28
I cannot remember how this happened. I know that people say Squats were eaten by 'nids and all well and good.

But in the real world how did GW get rid of them. As I recall one minute they are in the stores the next they are not. I don't remember any actual announcement about them stopping them. I may be wrong andjust not recall it, but then I don't remember one for Chaos Dwarfs in WFB either?

They released a 'get you by list' in the 2nd edition rulebook with the intention of a codex release at some point in the future.

Then I suggest reading the following



Originally Posted by Jervis johnson
I know I shouldn't get drawn on this... but... can't... resist

Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.

First of all, Squats were *not* dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantaties that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.

No, the reason that the Squats were dropped was because the creatives in the Studio (people like me, Rick, Andy C, Gav etc) felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice in its 40K incarnation. From the name of the race (Squats - what *were* we thinking?!?!) through to the short bikers motif, we had managed to turn what was a proud and noble race in Warhammer and the other literary forms where the archetype exists, into a joke race in 40K. We only fully realised what we had done when we were working on the 2nd edition of 40K. Try as we might, we just couldn't work up much enthusiasm for the Squats. The mistake we made then (deeply regreted since) was to leave them in the background and the 'get you by' army list book that appeared. With hindsight, we should have dropped the Squats back then, and saved ourselves a lot of grief later on.

Anyway, the Squats made it into 2nd edition, and since we were doing army books for each of the races, we started to try and figure out what to do with them. Unfortunately we just couldn't figure out a way to update them and get them to work that we felt was good enough. The 'art' of working on an army as a designer is to find the thing that you think is cool and exciting about an army, and work it up into a strong theme. This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background, we kept doing other army books instead, with stuff we did feel inspired by.

Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendancy to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.

In the end (and it took years to really get to the roots of the problem) this led to a realisation that we were going to have to drop the Squats in their 'Squat' form from the 40K background. There was little point having a major race that we weren't willing to make an army book for, and their inclusion in the background meant that people kept asking us when we'd do a Squat Codex. Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based on the Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a 'feel' for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race 'in our back pocket' as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more lilely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain predudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell...

I'll finish off by saying that whatever we decide to do 'officially', there is nothing stopping players with Squat armies from using them, either in Epic or 40k for that matter. There is no GW 'rule' against using old Citadel Miniatures, as long as you use them with exisiting army lists and in a way that won't cause confusion for other players. I recommend taking a positive stand by saying "Have you seen these cool old models? They're called the Squats and GW used to make them back in the late eighties/early nineties. I love 'em, so I count them as Imperial Guard and use them with the current rules..." Put like this I can't imagine that anyone would stop you from using your army.

Best regards,

Jervis Johnson
Head Fanatic


And judging by the test models they were way too fantasy and not enough 40K.


I was just wondering as several of the codex have been skipped and I also lots of models are only on the website and no longer stocked in the stores. Is it possible that thngs like Dark Eldar, who seam to have only had one codex with a minor update and nothing for years along with SOB/WH/DH etc.

I was just thinking would they go the same way? Already it appears that the majority of the figures for them, (Being the metal ones I think?) appear to be very limited if in stock at all when I go to the GW store.

Will I go in one day and just be told that the Inquisition and Dark Eldar have been eaten by 'nids and they will just quietly go the same way as Squats?

Somehow I doubt that.

IJW
20-11-2009, 11:39
Thanks Brimstone, I really need to save that somewhere.

P.S. For the people who haven't seen the 'way too fantasy' 2nd ed. sculpts:
http://collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Squats_-_Unreleased

Brimstone
20-11-2009, 11:41
Thanks Brimstone, I really need to save that somewhere.

No need it's always in the Demiurg thread in the 40K rumour roundup ;)

snurl
20-11-2009, 12:09
** News flash **
Wait until you see the new White Dwarf subscriber only miniature for 2010.
Its the White Dwarf, dressed like a SQUAT!

They are really doing this just to mess with us aren't they?

sigur
20-11-2009, 12:57
He's not dressed like a Squat and that has been talked about to death. He's wearing some space suit and there's a totally expendable master chief helmed in front of him. It's just Grombrindal in space. A cool and fun miniature.

edit: @wilycoyote: Olley's Miniatures is no more. He might be selling the Scrunts moulds on to another company but ) don't think that chances are too good that we'll see those excellent sculpts again any time soon.

edit2: Sorry, I just saw that they're actually selling them again. Weird.

Hellebore
20-11-2009, 13:17
The Eldar have a much more interesting background and models.(never played or collected them though and never will)
Eldar and Dark Eldar remind me somehow about Vulcans and Romulans.
(while they're obviously elves)

Squat players often tend to be annoying...
Pulling out their dwarf bikers mentioning that "this is the only REAL army".

I don't miss Squats.
I really don't.

The eldar are my favourite 40k faction (although the space wolves are my favourite army) but I don't think the original squat background as you put it is uninteresting.

They are:

A mutated offshoot of humanity with their own substantial empire in the core of the galaxy.
Masters of technology and possessors of unbroken STC
Survivors of the Age of Strife and have an unbroken history from ~20,000 to the current time
Have the most stable psykers in the galaxy. Rather than being born with the psyker gene they develop into them at extreme age which reinvigorates their lives and also means they've had an entire lifetime to master their own souls and minds so that when they do use their psychic powers they don't blow their fellows' heads off by accident
Not superstitious and don't really truck with religion.

So basically they are a whole different branch of humanity that is so alien now they might as well be aliens. Who understand and perfect advanced technologies and who control a vast area of space.

I don't see how this background is unintersting. At the least it provides an alternative to the oppressive and depressive atmosphere of the Imperium whilst still staying within that sphere.

@Sigur, the White Dwarf is wearing a very squatesque jumpsuit. I find it hilarious that people LIKE that model but HATE the squats. There is so little difference in design (he lacks some quilting) it is just silly. I find the hypocracy of liking WD in space and disliking squats quite delicious.

Which simply supports my opinion that the original squat models were let down in QUALITY rather than design.

Hellebore

Darkstar2586
20-11-2009, 13:20
Is it that time of the month already 0.o

Murphy's law
20-11-2009, 14:05
The eldar are my favourite 40k faction (although the space wolves are my favourite army) but I don't think the original squat background as you put it is uninteresting.

They are:

A mutated offshoot of humanity with their own substantial empire in the core of the galaxy.
Masters of technology and possessors of unbroken STC
Survivors of the Age of Strife and have an unbroken history from ~20,000 to the current time
Have the most stable psykers in the galaxy. Rather than being born with the psyker gene they develop into them at extreme age which reinvigorates their lives and also means they've had an entire lifetime to master their own souls and minds so that when they do use their psychic powers they don't blow their fellows' heads off by accident
Not superstitious and don't really truck with religion.

So basically they are a whole different branch of humanity that is so alien now they might as well be aliens. Who understand and perfect advanced technologies and who control a vast area of space.

I don't see how this background is unintersting. At the least it provides an alternative to the oppressive and depressive atmosphere of the Imperium whilst still staying within that sphere.

@Sigur, the White Dwarf is wearing a very squatesque jumpsuit. I find it hilarious that people LIKE that model but HATE the squats. There is so little difference in design (he lacks some quilting) it is just silly. I find the hypocracy of liking WD in space and disliking squats quite delicious.

Which simply supports my opinion that the original squat models were let down in QUALITY rather than design.

Hellebore

Like you said, a mutant offshoot of humanity.
Nothing more, nothing less.
And the models are ugly as hell.

sigur
20-11-2009, 14:39
...
@Sigur, the White Dwarf is wearing a very squatesque jumpsuit. I find it hilarious that people LIKE that model but HATE the squats. There is so little difference in design (he lacks some quilting) it is just silly. I find the hypocracy of liking WD in space and disliking squats quite delicious.

Which simply supports my opinion that the original squat models were let down in QUALITY rather than design.

Hellebore

I hope you didn't get the impression that I don't like Squats which is absolutely not the case. I also don't see much wrong with the original Squats miniatures. Just recently, I started painting up around 25 of them for my IG army and, while the miniatures have suffered over the years due to the very soft metal from back then, and I think the faces and hair are superbly well done. The cloth and some armour parts looks a bit weird and inconsistant but that's what 40k (or RT) minis were back when every single one had a name.

Concerning the White Dwarf in Space, I prefer to think of it as what it is - the White Dwarf in Space. Of course, he's resembling a Squat very much, being a ...well, Space Dwarf and all, but I don't really see much of a similarity between his outfit and Squats miniatures or design that go beyond similarities due to being modern/futur-esque outfit. I also believe that GW deliberately avoided making any similarities to Squat design.

I can actually see why people who don't like the idea of having Squats in 40k (for what weird reasons ever) liking the WD in space because it's much more of a statuette with the iconic character wearing an amusing, different outfit. I don't see it as a Squats reference at all, it's more like artwork in which the WD is wearing a Santa's outfit for christmas or shorts and a surfing board for summer (hypothetically).

Of course, if someone likes Squats (like me), it's a great addition to one's army but I don't see him as a Squat miniature per se or even a nudge or taunt at the people who like Squats.

Me, I pretty much accepted the fact that GW never will release Squats miniatures ever again and that's okay because, as I mentioned earlier, they would warp the whole concept to a point that it's not Squats any more. Maybe they will introduce short alien types (which I absolutely can do without. 40k has enough races/armies already) but there will not be any Squats again. It's our job to keep them alive and there's various takes on that one. May it be "reminagining" the whole race and turning them into Vangyr (?) or sticking to the original concepts as closely as possible or whatever. And there's many people out there doing a good job at that.

AndrewGPaul
20-11-2009, 14:42
It wasn't so much the concept, IMO. It was the execution. The Squat army was amde up of rough;y equal amounts of short bearded Guardsmen, odd-looking roly-poly armour suits and scruffy bikers. The three parts of the army didn't look like a coherent whole, at a time when a lot of other armies had been 'made over' with a consistent look (or were at least in the process).

x-esiv-4c
20-11-2009, 14:49
I always think it's funny that people remember Squats by their armour, unkempt beards and bikes. Few people seem to remember the Colossus, Cyclops, Goliath etc.

If you are going simply off looks of the basic element, ever actually looked at a necron?

sigur
20-11-2009, 14:53
I always think it's funny that people remember Squats by their armour, unkempt beards and bikes. Few people seem to remember the Colossus, Cyclops, Goliath thetc.

That's probably because we're talking about 40k here, where Squats looked like that and where all the Epic minis didn't play any role? And sure, Necrons looked bad from the start, no question about that but also, not e topic here.

AndrewGPaul
20-11-2009, 14:56
I have. That's why I don't have an army of them. They are, hoever, coherent across the different units, and quite different from the other armies in appearance.

In any case, this is 40K General Discussion, not Epic Discussion. We were talking about the Squat army as it was in the mid 90s - no vehicles for anyone, really. Everyone made do with Land Raiders, Predators and Rhinos (even the Orks and Harlequins!). The reason the Squats hung on for a couple of years longer in Epic was precisely because the larger scope of that game meant the army had a more coherent, unique look there. That's not possible in 40K.

edit: d**n you, sigur!

Hrw-Amen
20-11-2009, 14:57
Perhaps it was my title but, yes I did a search and found lots of things about Squats, and why they are no longer around as a race that has its own codex and were eaten by'nids and all of that, but that did not answer my question or more over my concern which was could this happen to SOB Inuistions DH WH Dark Eldar etc that have not had codex updates for years. Maybe it would be better if I had titled it differently but the thread was not so much a question about Squats but more about current armies going the way of Squats.

Afterall people here argue about codex still being valid with 40K 5th edition and so on.

If for example WH & DH say, do not get a new codex by the time that we get 6th or even 7th edition 40K then how long does the current codex remain viable and able to be used before GW shop staff or whoever say sorry you can't play that army here? If come 2020 there is still no updated codex for these will peole say:- "Oh that was the last codex they released therefore it must still be valid?" Which effectively I guess what has happene to BA and until recently SW?

I have already noticed that going into a GW shop or two near'ish to me you are sometimes hard pressed to find a blister pack of normal SOB let alone any of the others.

sigur
20-11-2009, 15:15
@AndrewGPaul: Sorry for being ninja . :cheese: By the mid-90s (specifically 1995), everyone had their own transports and such. It was only in Codex Army lists in which imperial armies, Genestealer Cults and Squats had to make use with Land Raiders and Rhinos. Eldar, Orks, (even chaos) etc. had their own vehicles in codex army lists already. After that, by the mid 90s, Squats were the only army in this sorry state but I don't see much wrong with that because Squats manufacture these vehicles themselves so why wouldn't they use them too?




... could this happen to SOB Inuistions DH WH Dark Eldar etc that have not had codex updates for years. ...

No.

Hellebore
20-11-2009, 15:18
Like you said, a mutant offshoot of humanity.
Nothing more, nothing less.
And the models are ugly as hell.

1) You don't get to comment on the models as they have nothing to do with the BACKGROUND that you argued was uninteresting in your original post. I responded to that statement, not to anything else.

2) Ad absurdum cuts both ways. Space marines are a mutant offshoot of humanity. Nothing more, nothing less.

Thus, by your own argument, space marines should be extinct too. Or, are you going to perhaps use a little bit more than a one line statement as a reason to axe an entire race?

Hellebore

AndrewGPaul
20-11-2009, 16:05
@AndrewGPaul: Sorry for being ninja . :cheese: By the mid-90s (specifically 1995), everyone had their own transports and such. It was only in Codex Army lists in which imperial armies, Genestealer Cults and Squats had to make use with Land Raiders and Rhinos. Eldar, Orks, (even chaos) etc. had their own vehicles in codex army lists already. After that, by the mid 90s, Squats were the only army in this sorry state but I don't see much wrong with that because Squats manufacture these vehicles themselves so why wouldn't they use them too?

When 2nd edition came out, the only large vehicle kits were the Rhino, Predator, Land Raider and Ork Battlewagon. The Leman Russ and Chimera came along after a while, and the Rhino variants got expanded, but there was nothing like the glut of different vehicles for different races like there is now. It simply wasn't possible for the Squats to work in 40K as "the race with lots of big vehicles", which was really their "thing".

Ironmonger
20-11-2009, 16:43
It simply wasn't possible for the Squats to work in 40K as "the race with lots of big vehicles", which was really their "thing".

...until now:evilgrin:

Murphy's law
20-11-2009, 16:51
1) You don't get to comment on the models as they have nothing to do with the BACKGROUND that you argued was uninteresting in your original post. I responded to that statement, not to anything else.

2) Ad absurdum cuts both ways. Space marines are a mutant offshoot of humanity. Nothing more, nothing less.

Thus, by your own argument, space marines should be extinct too. Or, are you going to perhaps use a little bit more than a one line statement as a reason to axe an entire race?

Hellebore

Well, Space Marines are MORE, not less.
They play a significant role in the 40K universe, squats don't.
Accept that.

A one line statement is sufficient regaring the elimination of squats.

They are gone, deal with it.

sigur
20-11-2009, 16:56
When 2nd edition came out, the only large vehicle kits were the Rhino, Predator, Land Raider and Ork Battlewagon. The Leman Russ and Chimera came along after a while, and the Rhino variants got expanded, but there was nothing like the glut of different vehicles for different races like there is now. It simply wasn't possible for the Squats to work in 40K as "the race with lots of big vehicles", which was really their "thing".

There were rules for all kinds of vehicles. I didn't know you were talking about vehicle kits which doesn't dictate that you can't use the vehicles that have rules for them. And I never percieved Squats as being the race that are "all about big vehicles".

AndrewGPaul
20-11-2009, 17:49
What do you mean, "all kinds of vehicles"? When 2nd edition came out, there were no vehicle datafaxes for things without models.

Like I said above, "The reason the Squats hung on for a couple of years longer in Epic was precisely because the larger scope of that game meant the army had a more coherent, unique look there."

The Squat army in Epic was basically "the one full of Land Trains, Leviathans and Cyclops". That feel was obviously not possible in 40K, and they suffered for it.

The Red Scourge
20-11-2009, 18:22
I'm gonna get myself some squat bikers for DH rough riders :D

Ambull Tau
20-11-2009, 22:34
Y'see, I got the vibe that when GW where deisgning the Tau, they where considering bringing back squats. Certainly, the hi-tech look of the Tau, the community (almost dwarfish) spirit, the fact that all the Tau are centered around one leader (the Ethereal) which is a bit like the Squat Lord thing.

This is probably where the Demiurg came from in the design process. They started out doing a squat reboot, ended up with Tau, stuck the poor old former design idea (the demiurg) in the Tau background.

Mind you, I'd love to you an update on the Ambull, as a Tau unit.

I quite like the Grymm from Hasslefree (below), and I was going to field them as Demiurg 'Firewarriors'.

http://www.hasslefreeminiatures.co.uk/range.php?range_id=25

Wintermute
21-11-2009, 09:31
Funnily enough, Squats are what first attracted me to games workshop back in '91. I remember looking at the back of a "How to Paint Citadel Miniatures" booklet and seeing a diorama of Squats vs. Orks in an underground warren, and thinking "this is the coolest thing I have ever seen, dwarves vs. orks in space with laser cannons."

I still have a copy of that booklet ;)

Colonial Rifle
21-11-2009, 11:57
Why do I get the feeling that most of the Squat-hate comes from newer players who feel threatened by a part of 40K history they know nothing about..

Personally, I like them and I owned a small force back in the day. Squats still have BETTER fluff than the Dark Eldar! The concept of the heathguard, living ancestors, guilds + exo-armour are still cool.

Models: There was nothing wrong with the RT-era squat miniatures. The plastic Squat brotherhood box set still looks good and I use some of the models in my current guard army. The 2nd ed models were rubbish, but no worse than the chaos line back then.

Murphy's law
21-11-2009, 12:00
Why do I get the feeling that most of the Squat-hate comes from newer players who feel threatened by a part of 40K history they know nothing about..

Personally, I like them and I owned a small force back in the day. Squats still have BETTER fluff than the Dark Eldar! The concept of the heathguard, living ancestors, guilds + exo-armour are still cool.

Models: There was nothing wrong with the RT-era squat miniatures. The plastic Squat brotherhood box set still looks good and I use some of the models in my current guard army. The 2nd ed models were rubbish, but no worse than the chaos line back then.


Nobody knows why you get that feeling.
Maybe because it's nonsense?

I would have had no problem with a 0-1 unit entry in the IG codex regarding squats
Maybe an entry for some better equipt Guard regiments with advanced technology's.
But i look at them like Ratlings, funny, not essential.

Hellebore
21-11-2009, 12:31
Well, Space Marines are MORE, not less.
They play a significant role in the 40K universe, squats don't.
Accept that.

A one line statement is sufficient regaring the elimination of squats.


You aren't using consistent logic. If one faction gets only a single line statement ALL factions must, otherwise you are favourtising. You can either be universally selective, or universally inclusive. Anything else is hypocrisy and illogical. So, either take ALL squat background as a whole when comparing it to all background of other forces, or only ONE part when comparing ONE part of other forces.

Saying 'nothing more nothing less' applies to the previous statement, which in this case is a mutant offshoot of humanity. Which both are. As no other defining factor was used in the statement you CANNOT apply MORE to space marines, because nothing more is provided. This is what happens when you get your own fallacy thrown back at you.

Much of Admech technology is owed to the squats. They invented the thudd guns the Death Korps use, they invented the Leviathan command tank the Guard uses. They invented the mole mortar, they perfected warp plasma technology whilst the best the admech could do was permanently contaminate Ganymede attempting to do the same thing.

So, the squats had a huge impact on the tech level of the Imperium in their own background.

Again, if you say 'Squats are a mutant offshoot of humanity. Nothing more, nothing less.' Then when comparing other factions' merits on equal terms you must also break them down into a ridiculous statement:

Eldar are are an alien race. Nothing more, nothing less.
Orks are are an alien race. Nothing more, nothing less.
Tyranids are are an alien race. Nothing more, nothing less.
Necrons are are an alien race. Nothing more, nothing less.
Tau are are an alien race. Nothing more, nothing less.

The reason you cannot accept the same statement being applied to space marines is exactly the same reason it cannot be applied to the squats or any other faction: is an ad absurdum fallacy used to make the squats look disproportionately less interesting rather than an actual balanced appraisal of their background.


Until you can define an arguement beyond that fallacy you HAVE no argument.



They are gone, deal with it.

This also has NOTHING to do with the quality of background of the squats in regards to other factions in 40k. NOTHING. You said their background was uninteresting, I gave numerous examples of how their background is unique to 40k and never repeated, which makes it more interesting that yet another space marine chapter or another guard regiment. Your defence of your statement boils down to 'I can use ad absurdum to ridicule squats but you cannot do it to other things and should get over it.' This is also approaching a straw man as that has nothing to do with the original topic - which is "is the squat background interesting in the context of other 40k races?" As of yet you've provided no logical argument as to why they aren't.

hellebore

Murphy's law
21-11-2009, 15:41
You aren't using consistent logic. If one faction gets only a single line statement ALL factions must, otherwise you are favourtising. You can either be universally selective, or universally inclusive. Anything else is hypocrisy and illogical. So, either take ALL squat background as a whole when comparing it to all background of other forces, or only ONE part when comparing ONE part of other forces.

Saying 'nothing more nothing less' applies to the previous statement, which in this case is a mutant offshoot of humanity. Which both are. As no other defining factor was used in the statement you CANNOT apply MORE to space marines, because nothing more is provided. This is what happens when you get your own fallacy thrown back at you.

Much of Admech technology is owed to the squats. They invented the thudd guns the Death Korps use, they invented the Leviathan command tank the Guard uses. They invented the mole mortar, they perfected warp plasma technology whilst the best the admech could do was permanently contaminate Ganymede attempting to do the same thing.

So, the squats had a huge impact on the tech level of the Imperium in their own background.

Again, if you say 'Squats are a mutant offshoot of humanity. Nothing more, nothing less.' Then when comparing other factions' merits on equal terms you must also break them down into a ridiculous statement:

Eldar are are an alien race. Nothing more, nothing less.
Orks are are an alien race. Nothing more, nothing less.
Tyranids are are an alien race. Nothing more, nothing less.
Necrons are are an alien race. Nothing more, nothing less.
Tau are are an alien race. Nothing more, nothing less.

The reason you cannot accept the same statement being applied to space marines is exactly the same reason it cannot be applied to the squats or any other faction: is an ad absurdum fallacy used to make the squats look disproportionately less interesting rather than an actual balanced appraisal of their background.


Until you can define an arguement beyond that fallacy you HAVE no argument.



This also has NOTHING to do with the quality of background of the squats in regards to other factions in 40k. NOTHING. You said their background was uninteresting, I gave numerous examples of how their background is unique to 40k and never repeated, which makes it more interesting that yet another space marine chapter or another guard regiment. Your defence of your statement boils down to 'I can use ad absurdum to ridicule squats but you cannot do it to other things and should get over it.' This is also approaching a straw man as that has nothing to do with the original topic - which is "is the squat background interesting in the context of other 40k races?" As of yet you've provided no logical argument as to why they aren't.

hellebore

You find them interesting, I don't.

I really don't care who or what made imperial guard artillery or tanks.
Nothing the adeptus mechanicus couldn't handle.
It's not significant important to the 40K universe. It really isn't.

If you like them, good for you, but i don't.
And i don't have to explain why.

sigur
21-11-2009, 16:38
What do you mean, "all kinds of vehicles"?

Jetbikes, Eldar Dreadnaughts, 'Eavy Bikes, Buggies, etc. is what I would call "all kinds of vehicles". :)


The Squat army in Epic was basically "the one full of Land Trains, Leviathans and Cyclops". That feel was obviously not possible in 40K, and they suffered for it.

Okay, so I misunderstood you a little. Still, I believe that there was still so much potential in the background and miniatures that they surely could have prevailed as a 40k army.

Ironmonger
28-11-2009, 21:05
...I believe that there was still so much potential in the background and miniatures that they surely could have prevailed as a 40k army.

THIS for days and days! I never understood the old GW party line of "We didn't know how to work with them, we didn't know what direction to take them." Are you flippin' serious?! You have a great back story, great fluff, workable stats and a whole range of models to go off of, and you "didn't know what to do with them?!" Even the most basic, obvious direction of the tech-advanced, ancestor-worshiping mining Warlords should have been more then sufficient to "Do them justice!"

Sorry, I know that was kinda a rant, but it just blows my mind that I can get some old artillery pieces, platoon-sized units of warriors, add some pre-heresy SM tanks, bikes and exo-armour and have a killer, unique, cohesive force from TWO DECADES AGO! Even the lame "What were we thinking with the NAME?!" excuse wears pretty thin:

'Let's see... ummm... we think that "Squat" sounds stupid now...hmmm... how about, that's what some other races called them, but their real name is unknown! Or...ummm... we can say their "real" name are the Dewi! Or Demi! Or Varangyr! Or...!'

Not real hard, GW.

Ambull Tau
29-11-2009, 01:28
'Let's see... ummm... we think that "Squat" sounds stupid now...hmmm... how about, that's what some other races called them, but their real name is unknown! Or...ummm... we can say their "real" name are the Dewi! Or Demi! Or Varangyr! Or...!'


They did that. They re-examined the idea of a resilient, warp-resistant race with advanced technology and a strong sense of community and a reliance on high speed and ranged artillery.

Then they decided to make them tall, thin and blue and call them Tau.

The Demiurg are Tau allies. From what I gather, it was almost Tau being Demiurg allies, but the design team decided that the whole idea had more future as something unhindered by nostalgia.