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hendybadger
19-11-2009, 23:15
In your opinion, what 2 40K forces fall under the titles of
'Greatest Evil' and ' Greatest Good'

And why?

Mannimarco
19-11-2009, 23:17
its 40k, there are no good and there are no evil, just varying shades of grey

hendybadger
19-11-2009, 23:18
Ok then. Which is the lightest and darkest grays?

Wednesday Friday Addams
19-11-2009, 23:19
Greatest good- Who ever I'm playing at the time.
Greatest Evil- The person I'm facing.

hendybadger
19-11-2009, 23:24
And if you had to pick 2 certain 40k armies?

Mannimarco
19-11-2009, 23:24
lightest grey: the tau - they at least give you a choice to join them before they attack you

darkest grey: the necrons - exterminating all life is bad

chaos doesnt count as evil as its base emotions taken to an insane extreme, its as evil as they people who created it, tyranids dont count as evil as theyre not eating you because they hate you, theyre doing it because its a food chain thing, theyre just higher in it

Anarnaxe
19-11-2009, 23:34
Yeah, but the Tau have been known to brainwash or sterilise entire races.

I'd say the lightest grey are the Guard. Yeah, they do some horrid things, but compared to some of the things they have to deal with, it could be justifible.
The darkest grey, Necrons, I do agree with the whole "Wiping out all life in the galaxy is bad, m'kay".

hendybadger
19-11-2009, 23:35
My own veiw is
'Good' Grey Knights/Ordos's Out to rid the galaxy of all evil
'Bad' Tyranids, Everything is comsumed for no obivious reason

Anarnaxe
19-11-2009, 23:50
No obvious reason then to feed? To survive and make sure its progeny comes into being?

Thats not evil, its nature.
Is a shark evil (or dark grey) because it attacks a swimmer? No. The shark just assumes the swimmer is a seal and bites. Whoops, its not, so it swims along.
Is a tiger evil when it ambushes a person working in the fields? No, the tiger is hungry and sees an easy target.

Tyranids aren't evil, their just animals.....Animals that can rapidly evolve in less then a generation and can travel in deep space under its own power.

hendybadger
19-11-2009, 23:55
But nobody knows if it is just nature for them or maybe a hidden agenda or plan that the galaxy doesnt know of.

Sirroelivan
20-11-2009, 00:06
Dark Eldar would be the most evil I think, since contrary to Chaos or Necrons, they aren't puppets of some higher entity. And Tyranids' and Orks's behaviour is just their nature, not really a conscious choice.

the1stpip
20-11-2009, 00:10
Dark Eldar are the lightest shade of grey because they only do what they do to survive against Slaanesh.

The Imperium is the darkest shade cos they are fascists, who think nothing to blowing up an entire planet to stop a secret escaping.

So you see, it is all a matter of perspective.

Anarnaxe
20-11-2009, 00:10
Ah yes, I can see it now, a Norn Queen is sitting in her giant swivel chair, plotting and planning the destruction of the galaxy, all the while stroking the ripper curled up in her lap........

And back to the (fictional) reality.

The Tyranids are animals, looking to feed, nothing more, nothing less. Look at what happens when a unit of Nids moves out of a Synaptic creatures range. The unit reverts to it basic instincts (Thats fight or flight). If the Tyranids seem intelligent, its the same animal cunning you see in Wolves, Lions or the Xenomorphs from the Alien series, yeah, they can set traps and ambushes, doesn't mean they have the same intelligence as Humans or any other sentient race in 40K.

SilverDrake
20-11-2009, 00:16
GG/LG: GK, Tau, SW, some other Astartes are pretty nice towards their humans (funny though I play all three of them)
BE/DG: SoB, Tyranids, DE and Necrons (Necrons are also the most unfunny agaisnt to play with, they're just totally boring and frustrating to play against, ever been and ever will be, though I personally dislike DE also a great deal, though I own Tyranids, and like SoB)

The rest is somewhere in-between.

Nezalhualixtlan
20-11-2009, 02:59
The Tyranids race is actually highly intelligent on the whole, speaking from the level of the Hive Mind, capable of higher level strategy and tactics no animal other than ourselves has been capable of, it can seemingly reason, generate abstractions, and analyze the galaxy around it. The race is however driven by hunger, pretty pure and simple. There's no greater evil there behind them, they don't exterminate life, or cause horror and terror, or commit evil acts for the sake of it simply doing it. They do it to eat. There's never been any other single observable pattern to their actions. The Hive Mind likely just see's prey, and then begins thinking of how to neutralize it's defenses in order to eat it.

I'd say Chaos, Necrons, and Dark Eldar are all pretty evil, and I'm not really sure which ones I think are most. Eldar and Tau are probably some of the lightest shades of grey in my book, but I'd give the edge to the Eldar as they aren't collectivists and I personally find collectivism a rather insidious philosophy. Grey Knights are probably a pretty light shade of grey too, but there's definitely questionable means to their ultimately good end utilzed. Of course the Eldar and Tau have that too, no one race in this game is truly innocent of all evil.

Johnnyfrej
20-11-2009, 03:04
I am the greatest good and my foes are the greatest evil!

Why? Because I said so!
*inchoate shouting*

CrownAxe
20-11-2009, 03:13
Its all perspectives

Corpse
20-11-2009, 03:33
Concepts of evil have one steady middle point. Continual negativity of emotion.

A man could feel nothing killing a Tau. Another man could feel regret and remorse in his place after killing a Tau.

The concept of evil exists because the intelligence that can understand a concept of evil, makes it exist.

Thus, all intelligence in the universe contributes to one evil in some way or another. The combined power of the warp.

Thus, it must be Chaos Daemons.

If that doesn't convince you, at least when you stop existing (necrons) you wont be twisted into something that you would originally hate. Personally I dislike the idea for existing a trillion years and eventually becoming what I hate/torturing myself because I remember everything. And if I forget who I am when I've already died, then I may as well have my existence erased and been replaced by someone else.

I would hate the idea of being tortured for infinity. Thus, Dark Eldar has a time limit how far they can go with you, even in a galactic scale they will eventually be forced to release you. The warp never releases you. It is the very notion of the afterlife, good and bad. Well its just bad, and everyone is destined to go there.

The warp is the ultimate evil, and its a natural occurrence like the wind blowing and the water flowing. Your doomed the moment you start to exist.

That is absolute, no matter what anyone says in response.

(edit)
Oh diggity, I forgot to add a good guy.

I have to say the real good guys are the people who are ignorant and feel they are doing what is good, irregardless of the outcome and repercussions. Good intent and failing is better then being evil and doing good deeds. Like chaos marines attacking orks, and saving a tau colony they were unaware of.

fox-hound
20-11-2009, 03:54
This is a question that has been asked in life countless times, according to a Biblical perspective all was good until man became aware that there was a thing called "bad" then everything was either good or bad. But to many other people "evil" is what we make it to be, for example Hitler thought he was doing the "right thing" by taking over the world on the contrary George Washington thought he was doing the right thing by fighting for a free country. So it realy depend what your beliefs are, in 40k I think every one is good and bad.

Netfreakk
20-11-2009, 03:58
Greatest good - Losing to me.

greatest evil - beating me.

=D

Meriwether
20-11-2009, 04:24
The tau are the greatest evil, because they are nothing more than Battletech/Gundam ripoffs designed to suck 12-year-olds into the game, don't fit with the fluff, are boring to play (and play against), and brought us the second-assiest models in the game: the Vespid.

The greatest good are the kroot, because quilled bird-men look sweet.

Imperius
20-11-2009, 04:24
Tyranids would be white on the gray scale.
I would say Necrons are nearly black, while they want to exterminate life they also need it to destroy it. Does that make sense? Well what I was getting at is the Pariah Gene,

Imperialis_Dominatus
20-11-2009, 04:36
I am the greatest good and my foes are the greatest evil!

Why? Because I said so!
*inchoate shouting*

This, quoted for truth, seconded, etc. ad infinitum.

Schultzhoffen
20-11-2009, 05:08
Clearly Necrons, Chaos and Dark Eldar are evil. Black evil. If you don't understand that I have no argument that can convince you. It's obvious. Torture, murder, genocide for no other reason but jollies is pretty goddammned evil.

Having said that, though, the rest vary from evil to slightly less that evil. I don't think good as such really exists in 40K. Even the 'Good Guys' are more of a grubby very dark grey.

Marines could be evil (Flesh Tearers and others). In fact, most Marine chapters frighten the **** out of me (bunch of fascist lunatics with daddy issues).

The Inquisition hardly seem like fun guys to invite to a dinner party. In fact, the whole damn Imperium makes NAZI Germany or Communist Russia/China seen like enlightened paradises run by caring Sunday School teachers in comparison. The Imperial Guard is hardly good. The 'I was only following orders' nonsense didn't wash at Nuremburg (Sp?) why should it wash in 40K? IG routinely wipe out 'tainted' or rebellious civilian populations.

The Tau. Ha, don't make me laugh. That 'Greater Good' crap is Communism disguised as progress. All brainwashing and thought control. Only a few degrees difference from the Imperium.

At least 'crons, DE, Chaos are honest about about being evil.

'Nids are evil, too. They can think (Hive mind) and are quite happy to eat all other life in the Galaxy. That's evil. Understandable, maybe, but evil, all the same. And yes, there is a difference between eating a cow and a sentient person/xenos.

Orks are evil. Don't believe the crap that violence is good/not evil or that hey can't help it/society/gods made them that way. Violence is evil. The fact that the orky psychopaths revel in it only makes them honest.

Maybe the Squats were good. Maybe that's why they're all dead. Maybe only evil can survive in a nightmare universe.

Ain't 40K great? God! I love it so!

Ad-Rock
20-11-2009, 05:14
Eldar : GG
Necrons : GE

FashaTheDog
20-11-2009, 05:18
Greatest good- Who ever I'm playing at the time.
Greatest Evil- The person I'm facing.

Funny, it just so happens that it the greatest evil is whatever army I play that week and the greatest good is my foe. :evilgrin:

Johnnyfrej
20-11-2009, 05:25
Clearly Necrons, Chaos and Dark Eldar are evil. Black evil. If you don't understand that I have no argument that can convince you. It's obvious. Torture, murder, genocide for no other reason but jollies is pretty goddammned evil.

Having said that, though, the rest vary from evil to slightly less that evil. I don't think good as such really exists in 40K. Even the 'Good Guys' are more of a grubby very dark grey.

Marines could be evil (Flesh Tearers and others). In fact, most Marine chapters frighten the ***** out of me (bunch of fascist lunatics with daddy issues).

The Inquisition hardly seem like fun guys to invite to a dinner party. In fact, the whole damn Imperium makes NAZI Germany or Communist Russia/China seen like enlightened paradises run by caring Sunday School teachers in comparison. The Imperial Guard is hardly good. The 'I was only following orders' nonsense didn't wash at Nuremburg (Sp?) why should it wash in 40K? IG routinely wipe out 'tainted' or rebellious civilian populations.

The Tau. Ha, don't make me laugh. That 'Greater Good' crap is Communism desguised as progress. All brainwashing and thought control. Only a few degrees difference from the Imperium.

At least 'crons, DE, Chaos are honest about about being evil.

'Nids are evil, too. They can think (Hive mind) and are quite happy to eat all other life in the Galaxy. That's evil. Understandable, maybe, but evil, all the same. And yes, there is a difference between eating a cow and a sentient person/xenos.

Orks are evil. Don't believe the crap that violence is good/not evil or that hey can't help it/society/gods made them that way. Violence is evil. The fact that the orky psychopaths revel in it only makes them honest.

Maybe the Squats were good. Maybe that's why they're all dead. Only evil can survive in a nightmare universe.

Ain't 40K great? God! I love it so!
You are obviously a heretic! Call the Inquisition!

Schultzhoffen
20-11-2009, 05:58
Hey, man, just following orders...

Troah
20-11-2009, 06:41
Greatest Good = Tau
Greatest Evil = Mankind.

Absolutionis
20-11-2009, 06:44
The "Greatest Good" would be the Orks with Tyranids close behind. Tyranids are too instinct-driven, but Orks are self-actualized and arguably "honorable". They fight for leadership, and they live to fight. They don't intentionally harm others for the sake of sadism. They fight because they honestly and truly enjoy it. Most Ork WAAAGHs venture away in order to face a worthy opponent, and Warbosses in the fluff constantly challenge the enemy commanders. If anything, the Orks' respect and honor for Yarrick is grounds for them being not-so-evil.
Orks are the lightest shade of grey.

The darkest shade of grey are the Necrons. They extinguish life not because they need it to survive (Tyranids), not because it is a threat (Eldar), not because they don't understand it (Imperium, Tau), and not because it is their nature (Chaos). They do it because they are jealous and hate life. They worship Star Gods that eat suns and the Necrontyr they once were made a pact with the C'tan out of fear, jealousy, and hatred.

Anyone thinking the Eldar are "good" should read the long quote by the interrogated Eldar Ranger in the Codex. If the Eldar had their way and were strong enough, they would commit genocide on all other races out of spite. Not hatred, but a cold and calculated spite.

As for the Tau, they're just kids. They're not good, they're not evil. They're just confused children with little wooden swords and Enormous Plot Shields. They're what happens if a spoiled child monarch brat gains the power to affect other kingdoms. They win a skirmish against a handful of Tyranid ships and they think they can rule the galaxy. The Imperium decides that there are more important fish to fry than the Tau (pun) by pulling out and suddenly the Tau think they can enslave other races. They're still evil in that they enslave and oppress. Unlike the Tyranids, however, the Tau just take the long route to enslaving other races.

Cognitave
20-11-2009, 06:46
Greatest Good: Marines with beaky helmets
Greatest Evil: Anyone without a beaky helmet.

GrimZAG
20-11-2009, 06:57
Greatest Good: Humble people who are trying to eak out an existence in this harsh time of life

Greatest Evil: Anyone who kills these people, be it collateral, willfull or whatever, this encompasses all of the playable races in the 40k universe, it's not a nice place to be, plus there'd be no internet...

spurker
20-11-2009, 07:21
Since evil is usually defined as acting immorally (against accepted standards of morality as opposed to amoral, meaning without morals). No group can be classified as evil, except in relation to another group (be it race, army whatever). The Eldar don't conform to the Dark Eldar's morality and vice versa. By the definition of evil, both therefore are! The accepted standards of morality for the Dark Eldar are that they torture and take slaves etc, compared to IG they're evil, but not compared to DE!
So before I can answer the question, which race are we taking as standard here?

Meriwether
20-11-2009, 13:06
No group can be classified as evil, except in relation to another group (be it race, army whatever).

Bah. I reject your casual acceptance of relative morality.

Meri

Rusty Initate
20-11-2009, 15:51
Necrons arn't evil they just want to sleep and all the other races wake them up and they aren't very happy happy that there sleep has been disturbed ;)

Orks aren't evil as well they are proberly the happist race in the 40k galaxy they only exist to fight blame the old ones for them being "evil" ;)

BigMek
20-11-2009, 16:19
As mentioned before, there are no good nor evil in 40k, only neutral though if you ask me Orks are the one truely neutral race, they don't care about what race you are, the colour of you skin, your age or wot not, they'll fight anyone, even themselves.

The "all neutral" is what makes 40k great and I will never understand the people who keep insisting that the imperium is good, if you ask me they are amongst the most "evil" races in the game.

Problem with a debate like this is that you can't really say what makes one evil and what makes one good, it's all in the eye of the beholder.
Yes the tyranids may seem evil because they go around consuming planets, but that is how they survive and in the same sense, humans could be called evil for killing animals for food.

I could proberbly write a whole novel on this subject so I'll just stop here.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
20-11-2009, 16:23
Necrons arn't evil they just want to sleep and all the other races wake them up and they aren't very happy happy that there sleep has been disturbed ;)

Hah! That's a great line. I get pretty grumpy when people wake me up too.

I'm another one of those damn obnoxious moral relativists, so I think that everyone is both the greatest good and the greatest evil depending on the frame of reference they are viewed in.

Or in other words, as has been stated several times. I (personally, not just the army I play) am the greatest good and everybody else is the greatest evil. Huzzah, back to my ivory tower!

Meriwether
20-11-2009, 16:23
Problem with a debate like this is that you can't really say what makes one evil and what makes one good, it's all in the eye of the beholder.

I hate how casually modern people accept this as fact. I encourage you to dig deeper into the topic.

BigMek
20-11-2009, 16:31
Schultzhoffen: First off, I'm not saying your wrong. Secondly, your whole post is based on how humans in this day and age (not 40k but ours) percieve the world, we believe that violence is evil but the orks dosn't and the fact that we believe our view is the only right one is just being selfish.

You can't look at the 40k universe, especially not when it comes to "good/evil", with the ours of the people today you have to look at it from another perspective.
To use the ork as an example again: They are doing what is natural to them, they fight, it's what they were created to do and it's the only thing they know and how does that make them evil?

Good and evil are purely human concepts and it's always individual.

BigMek
20-11-2009, 16:33
I hate how casually modern people accept this as fact. I encourage you to dig deeper into the topic.

Accept what as a fact? that it's in the eye of the beholder? explain to me how it's not then?

Meriwether
20-11-2009, 16:35
It cannot be true that there is no absolute morality.

"There is no absolute morality" is a moral absolute. Therefore, the statement cannot be true. Therefore, it must be more complicated -- and more interesting -- than that.

Exactly how and why it is more interesting than that I will leave for you to discover yourself. Or to ignore, as is your want.

Either way, it is well out of the bounds of not only this thread, but this forum.

gwarsh41
20-11-2009, 16:40
Wow, these threads pop up a bunch!

Anywho, I always enjoy the thought of chaos daemons being the evil ones. Part of why I play them.

Good guys? who needs em!

Schultzhoffen
20-11-2009, 18:34
@BigMek

While your theory on Orks holds some weight I'm afraid that you're wrong if you think violence is not an evil action. The outcomes of what they do (destruction and death on a massive scale) are evil. In fact, the 'I was made that way' excuse makes it worse because if that's all they are they are truly a dangerous (and evil) threat to all other life, similar to 'nids or 'crons.

As I said, not one faction in 40K is good. They're all evil in varying degrees. Orks just don't give a crap about term such good or evil but this doesn't mean that these concepts don't exist.

The argument that good and evil is a matter of perspective is a flawed argument.

Frankly, everyone in the Dark Future would probably be better off dead. HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!

C'mon, embrace the evil that is 40K!

LordLucan
20-11-2009, 19:05
The DE and Necrons are the most evil races. The DE don't just torture and maim in order to save themselves, they maim and murder and brutalise because they enjoy it. Necrons wish to kill every living thing, because they are bitter and spiteful. Even the C'tan don't want to kill everyone! ;)

Least evil? Nisscassar imo. They were simple explorers, travelling the void in their psychic vessels. Then the Tau beat them up and incorporated them into the Empire.

12345_7
20-11-2009, 19:59
Good and evil are created because of different opinions. But in my opinion:

Greatest Good:
Eldar - This is because they only do things that will help save and/or preserve their race and won't go out of the way just to kill one heretic 5 trillion light years away unless they had good reason and judgement to. Plus, if they reverted back to the ways of the Fall then they might create yet another Chaos God, which wouldn't be good for almost everyone.

Greatest Evil:
Imperium - This is because in my mind, they don't know what the **** they are doing and are just making matters worse for the galaxy. If they weren't in 40k it would be a fairly quiet galaxy.

drizzt73
20-11-2009, 20:21
If you go based on the fluff then nids are the greatest threat to the galaxy, they don't care if they are devouring Tau, necrons, chaos, orks or humans etc, not sure if that equals to greatest evil but each of the "baddies" are evil in their own way I guess. So my vote is nids.

For Good I would say Tau, closely followed by eldar.

Cheers

tuebor
20-11-2009, 21:17
'Bad' Tyranids, Everything is comsumed for no obivious reason

The Tyranids are consuming all life in the galaxy for the same reason that a cow consumes the grass around its feet.

Dexter099
20-11-2009, 21:25
Tau have to be close to the evil side, simply because their society forces you to conform and kills you if you try to be an individual. They are very fascist/communist in this regard.

But there are worse things out there. Chaos has to be the worst because they destroy things for no other reason than to destroy them, because it is in their nature. That in itself is evil.

The C'tan are evil because they wish to feed on souls for their pleasure.

The Grey Knights, however, have to be the closest to good due to them banishing demons and other enemies who would kill amny, many beings.

Lordsaradain
20-11-2009, 21:34
The chaos goods are most evil.
Necron might just want to kill everyone, but chaos makes them suffer first. And the Chaos Gods are immensly more powerful and influential than DE.

505
20-11-2009, 21:59
The Tyranids are consuming all life in the galaxy for the same reason that a cow consumes the grass around its feet.

well then cows = evil. therefor I need to eat as many of them as I can its a moral obligation. (does that mean Vegetarians are conspirtors to evil?)

He Who Thirsts
21-11-2009, 00:29
The chaos goods are most evil.
Necron might just want to kill everyone, but chaos makes them suffer first. And the Chaos Gods are immensly more powerful and influential than DE.

I'm going to have to disagree with him on that. The Chaos Gods are emotion. Is rage evil? Or pleasure, or hope, or despair? No, so they aren't evil, they simply are what they are.

DE on the other hand are cruel for entertainment purposes. There are few evils as evil as that, and they aren't personified in any of the races in 40k.

squeekenator
21-11-2009, 00:58
The Grey Knights, however, have to be the closest to good due to them banishing demons and other enemies who would kill amny, many beings.

I beg to differ. The Grey Knights do indeed banish daemons to protect the Imperium, but they also have a habit of then slaughtering anyone who saw the daemons, talked to anyone who saw the daemons or was on the same planet as whoever summoned the daemons. They may be glorious knights in shining armour, but the Inquisition as a whole is at least as evil as the Chaos-tainted foes they fight against.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
21-11-2009, 02:41
I beg to differ. The Grey Knights do indeed banish daemons to protect the Imperium, but they also have a habit of then slaughtering anyone who saw the daemons, talked to anyone who saw the daemons or was on the same planet as whoever summoned the daemons. They may be glorious knights in shining armour, but the Inquisition as a whole is at least as evil as the Chaos-tainted foes they fight against.

"There are those who question my right to kill these people. Those who understand realize I have no right to let them live."

Paraphrased of course, but a perfect example of the inquisition's thought process.

The Imperium is doing what it has to to survive. If it took the time to consider things like human rights or due process, the Imperium would disintegrate under the weight of all their enemies. Allowing the people who witnessed a daemonic incursion to live invites another daemonic incursion. Basically, ignorance is the best defense humans have against the warp.

Of course, this just makes them an oppressive fascist regime that also justifies their actions in the name of survival. Your mileage may vary. :P

AngryAngel
21-11-2009, 04:39
Alright Nids might not eat because they hate. However they are horrible gluttons who offer nothing at all to the food chain. Consuming everything and leaving nothing means only one thing. They'd eventually eat themselves out of existance. I think nids, even more then orks earn the greatest pointless struggle award. To win, they lose.

At least necrons once they take over everything are still there to enjoy it.

mightymconeshot
21-11-2009, 04:46
well then cows = evil. therefor I need to eat as many of them as I can its a moral obligation. (does that mean Vegetarians are conspirtors to evil?)
20-11-2009 13:34

amazing and sigged me friend.

most evil is inquisition and the least is nids

Freman Bloodglaive
21-11-2009, 09:40
Space Marines, Inquisitors, the Lord of Terra; they do what they must to preserve the human race in the face of countless enemies that would destroy them.

Is humanity's survival important?

As a human I would say yes.

Therefore the Imperium are good.

Anyone who says otherwise is a species traitor and deserves to be sanctioned with extreme prejudice. :)

Evil, Chaos Marines have betrayed their oaths to humanity and work to destroy the Imperium of Man. There is no penalty severe enough to punish them for that crime. We'll have to settle for killing every one we can. :angel:

The Occult
21-11-2009, 10:11
I think that the greatest good would have to go to the squats - they have discovered that the best way to fight the taint of chaos is to simply not exist.

spurker
21-11-2009, 10:56
It cannot be true that there is no absolute morality.

"There is no absolute morality" is a moral absolute. Therefore, the statement cannot be true. Therefore, it must be more complicated -- and more interesting -- than that.

Exactly how and why it is more interesting than that I will leave for you to discover yourself. Or to ignore, as is your want.

Either way, it is well out of the bounds of not only this thread, but this forum.

"There is no absolute morality" is an absolute, but not a moral one. Absolutes are entirely possible. I still agree with you though. I stick to my guns that the only absolute evil is in intention. If you intend to do something just to cause harm, that's evil. That's opposed to doing something that causes harm for what you intend to be a good reason, no matter how misguided.

Meriwether
21-11-2009, 15:55
Of course it's a moral one. It is the ultimate absolute, because it defines away "good" and "evil" as meaningless... It is the equivalent of every moral absolute "*that* isn't evil... and so isn't *that*... and so isn't *that*..." plus "*that* isn't good... and so isn't *that*... and so isn't *that*..." together.

...but I'm already having this conversation with five other people via PMs, so I'm done with it here.

KingDeath
21-11-2009, 17:28
Meh, judging completly alien races by human standards leads to nowhere.
The Eldar for example are not just humans with pointy ears, their mind is completly alien and incomprehensible to us. At best we can judge their morality in relation to our perception of it, which would make them pretty evil.
At worst we have to see them as the incomprehensible xenos scum that they are and wipe them out...like the emprah decreed it :D

spurker
21-11-2009, 18:03
I really need LOADS more clarification on your argument meriwether, it is nonsensical, incoherent even. I don't mean that in an offensive way, just that I have no idea what you are talking about...

Ambull Tau
21-11-2009, 18:12
Greatest Evil: Jervis Johnson
Greatest Good: Same Chap.

Meriwether
21-11-2009, 18:15
I really need LOADS more clarification on your argument meriwether,

No, you don't. You can live without it.


it is nonsensical, incoherent even. I don't mean that in an offensive way, just that I have no idea what you are talking about...

Your ignorance on the issue is unfortunate, but I've already said I'm having this conversation in PMs with a bunch of other people, and don't want to again here.

It's a complicated issue. Most people lazily assume that moral relativism is the correct answer, and then interpret every argument -- even arguments about whether moral relativism is correct -- through the assumption that it is correct. This is lazy as well as bad logic.

I encourage you to go out and learn more, but I'm not going to spend any more time on this. I have wood to stack, treefall to burn, presents to shop for, papers to grade, and tanks to assemble and paint.

nuclearfeet
21-11-2009, 18:49
Imperium
The good: They represent all of humanity, protects humanity from violence and extinction.

The bad: Incredibly fascist and racist(specist?). Not to mention corrupt beyond all imagination. Will exterminate entire populations to further an agenda.

Chaos
The good: Represents the human traits of courage and honor, hope, love, and wisdom. Unites humanity against the oppressive rule of the Imperium.

The bad: Represents the human traits of rage and war, corruption, lust and excess, paranoia and scheming. Like the Imperium, many innocent people have died in the name of chaos.

Eldar
The good: Share many of mankind's enemies. Last of their species, struggling to survive.

The bad: They feel superior to other races, will sacrifice a thousand humans to save a single eldar. Their race brought about the birth of Slaanesh.

Orks
The good: They were engineered to be warlike...it's not their fault. Green.

The bad: warlike, will start wars with any race in the galaxy.

Necrons
The good: the Necrontyr were tricked by the C'tan into serving them.

The bad: Want to destroy every living thing in the galaxy

Tyranids
The good: They're just hungry...

The bad: Wiped out an entire galaxy, wants to consume every living thing and biomatter.

Dark Eldar
The good: Trying to survive from The Thirst, and Slaanesh

The bad: Sadistic in the extreme, enslaves other races and consumes their souls to stay alive.

Tau
The good: diplomatic, open and tolerant to other races of the galaxy

The bad: Will try to expand their empire at any cost. Any planet that doesn't join willingly, they take by force.


There is no good and evil in 40k. Do the Orks see themselves and bad? Of course not! Although most other races in the galaxy do. The Imperium doesn't see itself as evil...but I'm sure Chaos and the Eldar would disagree. See my point?

Imperialis_Dominatus
22-11-2009, 03:22
Tyranids aren't evil per se; any more than a lion is evil. But they still must be destroyed. For they oppose Mankind's just and manifest destiny of dominance over the galaxy.

With Meri on the moral relativism issue, but agree it's a conversation for PM.


Space Marines, Inquisitors, the Lord of Terra; they do what they must to preserve the human race in the face of countless enemies that would destroy them.

Is humanity's survival important?

As a human I would say yes.

Therefore the Imperium are good.

Anyone who says otherwise is a species traitor and deserves to be sanctioned with extreme prejudice. :)

Evil, Chaos Marines have betrayed their oaths to humanity and work to destroy the Imperium of Man. There is no penalty severe enough to punish them for that crime. We'll have to settle for killing every one we can. :angel:

You have earned the Star of Terra for your loyalty to the Golden Throne.

spurker
22-11-2009, 08:29
I'll just say, meriwether, that your assumation of my ignorance and laziness is rude. I have learnt plenty on this and I simply don't agree with you. I'll leave it at that.

I like the summary nuclearfeet and am with you on your point at the end.

Meriwether
22-11-2009, 15:27
It's not my intent to be rude -- if you can't even understand the argument (which several other people not only understood, but commented on privately), that implies you aren't familiar with the topic.

I'm ignorant of all sorts of things, and don't take it as an insult when it's pointed out. I also don't mean it as an insult when I point it out to others. It's just an observation.

As for the laziness, I meant that it was a lazy argument, not that you yourself are lazy.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.