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View Full Version : WFB Chaos vs C:CSM (what chaos in 40K could have been)



Hadafix
21-11-2009, 14:48
Checking out what Chaos gets in WFB, I feel that their 40K counterparts really got a raw deal. However this also got me thinking that a "homebrew" codex using the WFB as its base maybe possible (like C:Daemons).

There are a few problems though that I can see, and the big one is balance. Would it be balanced and what other problems (other than updating the war gear which should not be to difficult) is there in such projects?

Is this workable or is this a non starter.

Lornak Bloodgreed
21-11-2009, 14:56
40K CSM codex purposefully sucks because of all those tournament junkies who whine and complain about the previous CSM codex. The WFB codex however is possibly EVERYTHING that CSM should be. They look better, they play tougher, there are real OPTIONS for YOUR chaos army. Its a better codex. If you are worried about balancing, first take a gander at Tau and IG, THEN you can worry about balancing your own codex. Its dangerous to make your own codex however because GW doesn't approve of possibly better ideas than theirs.

Hadafix
21-11-2009, 15:12
I totally agree that WFB is what the C:CSM could have been, which is why I was thinking of using it as a base. And its hardly a better idea than GWs given that I am using a GW idea to base it on.

The problem I have is that I have not done a project like this before, and so run the risk of either making a Uber power codex or one that sucks more than the 4.0 one, though not sure if the latter is possible.

Count de Monet
21-11-2009, 15:19
Really?

Completely divorcing CSM from daemons?

Limited effect marks vs. cult units?

I think the screaming if C: CSM had been like that would have completely broken the internet. ;)

Gorbad Ironclaw
21-11-2009, 15:27
What exactly is it from the Chaos list you would like to see make it into 40k?
Aside from demons being way, way more powerful in WFB than they are in 40k I'm not sure there is a lot of stuff you would want.
The Warriors book at least is fairly boring and limited(Cavalry and magic. The end).

Kildash
21-11-2009, 15:31
If you are worried about balancing, first take a gander at Tau and IG, THEN you can worry about balancing your own codex.

Did you just say Tau are overpowered, or on an equal power level as guard? Because if you did, I'm calling a big fat nuclear bomb in on your hometown... nothing personal. :)

TheShadowCow
21-11-2009, 15:43
Did you just say Tau are overpowered, or on an equal power level as guard? Because if you did, I'm calling a big fat nuclear bomb in on your hometown... nothing personal. :)


I call your bluff.

*Ahem*

Tau are on an equal power level as Guard!



In a related, arguably more topical note - I think C:CSM could definitely have benefitted from a little more flavour. It's all fairly balanced, and I appreciate that balance is a big thing in todays world of tournaments and internet whine threads, but this time I definitely feel GW went a little too far down that road.

The 4th Ed C:CSM was oozing with flavour, but it was poorly structured. I for one would be happy with a half-way between the two. A base, balanced C:CSM list/catalogue of units/equipment and then a series of actual army lists detailing what each Legion/Renegade force can/cannot field, and any addending rules required to represent that force.

Daemons are an interesting topic in themselves. In prior editions, they have always taken up a lot of space that could have been used up by the CSM themselves. For 5th, GW seemed to laegely drop that in favour of two very simple entries - I'm confused though, because nothing really seemed to fill the gap that was left behind. That space could be used to give much greater support to the Legions/Cults.

marv335
21-11-2009, 15:52
Tau are on an equal power level as Guard!


Congratulations, you've just lost all credibility.
the rest of your argument can be safely ignored.
Thanks for coming.
:D

Azmodan666
21-11-2009, 15:59
The cult troops are great (really they are so difrent from each other), but why no cult elites?
i like to see some cult, termies and chosen. and Cult HQ!!!!!

Second i don't like the "bad something" that marks did to us.

First of all DP (khorne and slanesch) with 5+inv and t5 is ridiculus. but he cannot have more (do to marks bonuses)

The all powered chaos sorcerers (nurgle,and slanesch) witch are rumored to be most powerfull ones (not counting eldar maybe) are the only sorcerers in the game that cannot cast two powers in turn. (do to the mark bonuses),

I liked the idea of chaos space marines chaving bolter,bolt pistol, and close weapon. .i was thinking wow my HQ have ws6 and my sorceror W3 A3. But i was 100% sure that normal marines will have much more heavy weapon options to counter that.

C:sm - Hand to hand , SM- more shooty.

And i hate the thing they done to special armies, no more iron worriors no more emperor children ETC.
i hate to see my opponet fielding Chaos sorcerer of slannesh leading berzerkers........(same things happens in daemon codex)

And the daemons are gone, really the new chaos codex schould have something tha will allow me to firld daemonettes again.

I think that new chaos codex was the one that people complained most (sorry bad english is bad)

A saw Space wolves dex today it make C:sm dex look sad.

Maybe they will do some chaos armies in WD some day.

Azmodan666
21-11-2009, 16:00
I call your bluff.

*Ahem*

Tau are on an equal power level as Guard!



In a related, arguably more topical note - I think C:CSM could definitely have benefitted from a little more flavour. It's all fairly balanced, and I appreciate that balance is a big thing in todays world of tournaments and internet whine threads, but this time I definitely feel GW went a little too far down that road.

The 4th Ed C:CSM was oozing with flavour, but it was poorly structured. I for one would be happy with a half-way between the two. A base, balanced C:CSM list/catalogue of units/equipment and then a series of actual army lists detailing what each Legion/Renegade force can/cannot field, and any addending rules required to represent that force.

Daemons are an interesting topic in themselves. In prior editions, they have always taken up a lot of space that could have been used up by the CSM themselves. For 5th, GW seemed to laegely drop that in favour of two very simple entries - I'm confused though, because nothing really seemed to fill the gap that was left behind. That space could be used to give much greater support to the Legions/Cults.


not counting the tau-gauard part i fell pretty the same way

Arbedark
21-11-2009, 16:03
The cult troops are great (really they are so difrent from each other), but why no cult elites?
i like to see some cult, termies and chosen. and Cult HQ!!!!!

Second i don't like the "bad something" that marks did to us.

First of all DP (khorne and slanesch) with 5+inv and t5 is ridiculus. but he cannot have more (do to marks bonuses)

The all powered chaos sorcerers (nurgle,and slanesch) witch are rumored to be most powerfull ones (not counting eldar maybe) are the only sorcerers in the game that cannot cast two powers in turn. (do to the mark bonuses),

I liked the idea of chaos space marines chaving bolter,bolt pistol, and close weapon. .i was thinking wow my HQ have ws6 and my sorceror W3 A3. But i was 100% sure that normal marines will have much more heavy weapon options to counter that.

C:sm - Hand to hand , SM- more shooty.

And i hate the thing they done to special armies, no more iron worriors no more emperor children ETC.
i hate to see my opponet fielding Chaos sorcerer of slannesh leading berzerkers........(same things happens in daemon codex)

And the daemons are gone, really the new chaos codex schould have something tha will allow me to firld daemonettes again.

I think that new chaos codex was the one that people complained most (sorry bad english is bad)

A saw Space wolves dex today it make C:sm dex look sad.

Maybe they will do some chaos armies in WD some day.

Erm, what? :wtf:

Now I understand that some people don't use English as a first language, but this post is just incomprehensible to me.

Hadafix
21-11-2009, 16:04
I have not seen a Chaos army in some time that uses Daemons, the main reason given is that the 4.0 generic ones kinda suck for their points.

Given that the LatD list is also debunked, it thought this would be an excellent way to bring them back in, particularly if tweaking "Wulfrick".

Limited Marks would, I think, have been far better received than the whole Icon thing.

Anyway, I have kind of made a start on getting some thoughts down HERE (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231737)

Spacerunner
23-11-2009, 04:46
I played a little 2nd Ed. and dropped off for years. I just picked up a year ago. I fell in in love with the stories and concepts put forth in the Lost and the Damned Books. I always saw the chaos influence as the terrible terror/threat/fear of anything conscious. I think of the chaos marines as the physical embodiment of what the chaos powers were waiting for to truly manifest themselves and end all that is corruptle (ie consciousness). They are the ultimate evil, not just "base desires and nature made manifest" hoopla. The just the lure of chaos.

My point is that the C:CSM should be be just as much of a abomination as the ultimate god infused space marine gone sociopath with soul eating capability. It SHOULD be the overpowered codex that cheezers are attracted to and should be the book to beat. It should be the book without honor and those with sportsmanship should want to beat it with the "good" armies.

As I said before, I didn't play 3rd or 4th so I don't know what the old codex was like, I just know what my own vision of what chaos really should be. And that is something everything is either consumed by or has no choice to fight.

:skull:

Playa
23-11-2009, 08:41
Hey,


I always saw the chaos influence as the terrible terror/threat/fear of anything conscious

Fluff for the Marine Legions went through some developmental growing pains.
The Hainesdex seemed to have got it all sorted for the nine "Renegade" Legions:
The Luna Wolves disbanded after the death of Horus.
The Black "Legion" became the moniker for any rabble Abaddon cared to throw together.
The four "Cult" Legions sold their souls to the four aspects of Satan as you describe above.
The other four are disgruntled former members of the Bob fan club.

_Eisenstein_ put forth the idea that IW/AL/NL/WB broke from the Imperium once they'd been retasked as mere tax-collectors for the Terran bureaucracy.
The Great Campaign of Reunification was over, and THIS was their reward!
"But I'm an unstoppable angel of death! An immortal warrior, not a clerk!
I quit!"

Only, quitting that fan club is a "heresy" punishable by summary execution. And, irl, Citadel lumps all of our Legions under the "Chaos" product line.
These two factoids guided development of Codex: Naughty Chapters.


It SHOULD be the overpowered codex that cheezers are attracted to and should be the book to beat

Well, if Chaos was the favoured studio army, this might be the case.
As is, the GW buildings feature aquilae, and there's a SM statue out front.
So, I don't think there's any doubt as to which army gets "the book to beat".


It should be the book without honor and those with sportsmanship should want to beat it with the "good" armies.

Well, up to a point, perhaps -

Cult CSM armies would logically fill that bill, as stated above.
My only real criticism of Pete was his handling of the Undivided Legions.
That said, his (3rd ed) boss was the rather perplexing Mr. Jervis Johnson.

That man's editorial decisions often quite beggar explanation.


I didn't play 3rd or 4th so I don't know what the old codex was like

Okay, a recap -
The Jervisdex was bad, even by studio standards, and quickly binned.

The Hainesdex was ruined by unannounced stealth edits by some GW drone.
This Mensa candidate secretly had certain text altered between printings.
Still, the original had, afaik, just two mechanical flaws:

The now-legendary Siren Prince loophole, and the Nine Blit IW build.
The latter still exists in the Gavdex, so it evidently wasn't really a flaw.
The former was a simple typographical error that never got into errata.

Still, certain players moaned that these PROVED the dex was cheese-laden from top to bottom.
Asked to explain themselves in the forums, the snivellers complained further that this was impossible -
The Hainesdex was just far too complex for them to express the full extent of its horrors.

The majority of these observations were penned by Space Marine players.

By sheer coincidence, Jervis soon announced a new paradigm in dex design - "streamlining".
And thus, the Gavdex (aka Codex: Emorines, Codex: Fail, etc.) was born.
Then, after "streamlining" our eyes out, GW went back to ye olde escalation paradigm.

And the Villagers rejoiced . . .


something everything is either consumed by or has no choice to fight

I think players should have the option of playing armies that way if they wish.
Thematically though, being declared heretic is enough for Loyalists -
They don't NEED any other reason:
Sure, Magnus only tried to warn Bob about Horus, but 'orders is orders'.

@OT:
Looking for answers in newer GW publications is a recipe for disaster.

+++
Fun fact: Investors grimly clinging to GW stock the last 5yrs have seen its value plummet 65%.
+++

These people make good decisions only by accident, and refuse to repeat them -
Ref: Cities of Death, the Hunter dexes, the EoT expansion armies, etc.
So if you want to 'fix' the CSM dex, just go back to the Hainesdex and delete the Siren Prince typo.

HTH


Playa

Arakanis
23-11-2009, 09:51
Congratulations, you've just lost all credibility.
the rest of your argument can be safely ignored.
Thanks for coming.
:D

I feel like this almost every day on Warseer. XD

TheShadowCow
23-11-2009, 13:08
I should have added in a glowing disclaimer that Tau=Guard was only added in for a giggle ^^

Playa seems to have hit what happened more or less on the head (what a Playa!). Given that turn of events (plus recent comments from On High that the Tyranid Codex is going to streamline Biomorphing options...), you've got to admit that even if they did re-do C:CSM tomorrow it's not going to look anything like the 4th Ed variant.

Sad times. Still, if you hang around GW for long enough you see how the epndulum shifts from one to extreme to the other (in WFB Dragons have gone from being god-units to flank-charge-support and now back to god-units) - so who knows, 6th Ed might see some up and coming new fellow try to inject all of the Chaos-lore back into C:CSM.

For now, we're stuck with "each army has one list, and if you want to be fluffy you do it by taking only 4-5 units from that list".

Spacerunner
23-11-2009, 14:54
@ Playa

Thank you for that awesome recap! I was totally expecting to get flamed or something for my alcohol influenced mini rants. I know the imperium (specially marines) have the silver spoon in mouth holders at GW. I was just cringing basically at GW's failure to follow through on the truely awesome concepts and stories the have built the 40k universe on, and done in that facepalming/ding dong corporate bad decision making. I am definatly not being as articulate as I could, so I apologize if it comes across as a bit rough

Blitz001
23-11-2009, 15:44
Tau are on an equal power level as Guard!



ummmmmmmmm no...not even close....epic fail shadowcow epic fail

Arbedark
23-11-2009, 15:45
ummmmmmmmm no...not even close....epic fail shadowcow epic fail


I should have added in a glowing disclaimer that Tau=Guard was only added in for a giggle ^^

No Blitz001, you're the one with the epic fail.

Xelloss
23-11-2009, 17:05
And then Blitz001 was an EFG.

Back to the topic, what are the latest infos on the famous legions codex ?

Hadafix
23-11-2009, 17:16
Personally, the 4.0 was just a fail because Gav had sucked all the flavour out of the 3.5 dex. It was a fail as it did nothing for may LatD army, and just invalidated it further, epic fail doesnt even come close.

Thinking about it, maybe I should have gone back to WFB and walked away from 40K

TheShadowCow
23-11-2009, 17:49
Personally, the 4.0 was just a fail because Gav had sucked all the flavour out of the 3.5 dex. It was a fail as it did nothing for may LatD army, and just invalidated it further, epic fail doesnt even come close.

Thinking about it, maybe I should have gone back to WFB and walked away from 40K

You can do a very convincing LatD army with IG and some attached Daemon Hunters (oh the irony...).

It would be nice if the actual list was there, but frankly the Traitor Legions have it harder than LatD at the moment.

There is no news on the Legions book though. Given what GW has penned for the next year or two, I wouldn't hold my breath about it either. Best to just make do with what we've got.

RED9335
23-11-2009, 18:13
Im a long time fantasy player and I honestly have made a shift to 40k to get away from chaos, i say this because in fantasy, well, there are people who play for the fun of the game, and then people who play chaos, I cant stand the ridiculous power creep and oh its chaos so it should be cheesy and unbeatable attitude of the rules and armies when it comes to chaos and i thank god that 40k is free from the "well i set my models up for no reason he is playing chaos list A-Z today." feeling trust me its not fun to fight demons in fantasy, and mortals are toned down yes but still a superior list in many aspects. All the books in both games need to be balanced and beatable by any other the trick is retaining the flavor of the unique factions and not the easy button factor, look at it this way, chaos armies have been toned down for at least 4 editions in a row of fantasy i think, and they still need it some more. My rant is done, and yes i agree my friend plays IG and the tank spam kills me, and i was a real life tanker in iraq.

ashc
23-11-2009, 19:23
WHFB Chaos is what C:CSM should have been?

C: Space Wolves is what C:CSMs should have been.