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mafty
21-11-2009, 23:14
So I played Tau tonight and after the game I definatly question some of the things he was doing, they are as follows:

1. He had a Tau battlesuit commander with 2 bodybuards and a bunch of drones (not sure how many, maybe 6) all in one unit. He said his battlesuit commander had some ability (forget the name) which allowed him to target 2 different units, which is fine I dont doubt it. But heres my question, what unit does the body guards have to shoot at, and what unit does the drones have to shoot at? also, he was rolling to hit, then to wound with one weapon on the commander, and if it killed what he was shooting at he would pick another target and roll to hit/wound again. then he would do the same with his bodyguards depending if the commander killed the first target they would move on to the next. Anyways I felt really cheated on how he was doing this.

2. Same unit as above, everytime I would fire something which didnt allow armor saves and required him to use his invulnerable, he would use the invulnerable save on the drones. Now this didnt seem right to me, not sure how the drones get an invulnerable save. So his unit became incredibly hard to kill because he was getting 4+ invulnerables on like 6 drones before he even had to allocate wounds on his commander or bodguards.

3. In the assault phase he jumped them backwards, I didnt know you could just jump in the assault phase without assaulting.

Vote Kantor
21-11-2009, 23:19
Umm, everything he does seems legal (unfortunately, tau can be cruel (looking at you Daver X)) Except taking more shots if he kills things, He made that one up as far as i know.

Jump packs mean you can move instead of charge in the assault phase

Drones get whatever save and invulnerable save their master has

Battlesuits can shoot at different targets.

RampagingRavener
21-11-2009, 23:22
also, he was rolling to hit, then to wound with one weapon on the commander, and if it killed what he was shooting at he would pick another target and roll to hit/wound again. then he would do the same with his bodyguards depending if the commander killed the first target they would move on to the next.

I'm pretty sure he has to nominate what's shooting at what, then roll. He can't just fire off one gun at a time and base his next shot on what the previous accomplished. Everything else, I think, is okay. Battlesuits being able to make a move in the Assault Phase is granted by having Jet Packs rather than Jump Packs. The Drones and Bodyguards, I think, have to all shoot at one target, then the Commander can split his fire between their target and another if he chooses.

cuda1179
21-11-2009, 23:24
All but one thing in that was legal. When he decides what to shoot, and where to shoot it, it must all be done at the same time. In other words, before he rolls the first "to-hit" dice he must have all ready declared where ALL of his shots are going to be going.

grissom2006
21-11-2009, 23:26
Ok first point you really should of put this in the rules forum.

Yep Tau can take a piece of wargear that allows the bearer to shoot at something different to the rest of the unit. They also can take a system that allows them to fire more than 1 weapon as well. The commander can then shoot at a completely different unit to the one the rest of his men shoot at. The Gun Drones though do have to shoot at the unit fired on by the unit not the character (GW FAQ for this).

Tau can take Gun Drones and Shield Drones these can be mixed.

Yep come the assualt phase the Tau are allowed to move their Crisis jump suits and do not have to assualt with them. Think of them like Eldar jet bikes if that helps.

He does strike me as having played underhandedly with his shooting against you.

Eulenspiegel
21-11-2009, 23:26
1. He had a Tau battlesuit commander with 2 bodybuards and a bunch of drones (not sure how many, maybe 6) all in one unit. He said his battlesuit commander had some ability (forget the name) which allowed him to target 2 different units, which is fine I dont doubt it. But heres my question, what unit does the body guards have to shoot at, and what unit does the drones have to shoot at?
He must declare the target his unit shoots at. Then he may declare another target his model with the wargear-thingy-that-allows-him-to-shoot-a-different-unit (multi-tracker?) shoots.


also, he was rolling to hit, then to wound with one weapon on the commander, and if it killed what he was shooting at he would pick another target and roll to hit/wound again. then he would do the same with his bodyguards depending if the commander killed the first target they would move on to the next.
Thatīs wrong. He must declare all shooting with that unit before he rolls any die, i.e.: "My Commander shoots one gun at target 1, the other gun at target 2. The rest of the unit shoots target 1 as well."
All shooting of one unit is at the same time, so he cannot change his mind mid-shooting.


2. Same unit as above, everytime I would fire something which didnt allow armor saves and required him to use his invulnerable, he would use the invulnerable save on the drones. Now this didnt seem right to me, not sure how the drones get an invulnerable save. So his unit became incredibly hard to kill because he was getting 4+ invulnerables on like 6 drones before he even had to allocate wounds on his commander or bodguards.
This sounds legal (Rulebook, p.25 "Allocating wounds on complex units"), wound allocation in 5th edition is a b*tch.


3. In the assault phase he jumped them backwards, I didnt know you could just jump in the assault phase without assaulting.
Thatīs Tau for you, most of their suits can do that :)

You really should get a Tau codex, or borrow your friendīs book to get a glimpse on what your enemy can do.

Also, this belongs in the rules subforum.


Edit:
Ninjaīd FIVE TIMES! Whatīs wrong with you guys? ;)

SilverDrake
21-11-2009, 23:26
also one battlesuit can fire at a different target as the rest of troop, this can be given to more thn one battlesuit however, no battlesuit for itself is allowed to fire at two different targets.
with the nomination thing i'm not that sure...

Lothlanathorian
21-11-2009, 23:38
Should point out, Shield Drones have a special rule where they get hit first. So, for wound allocation, the shield drones will soak up a bunch of hits if they were what he had in the unit.

Other than that, what everybody else in here said. Shooting from a single unit is worked out simultaneously. He has to declare who is doing what in that unit before he ever gets to roll anything. Page 16, BRB, last sentence will clarify this for you.

Other than that, it was all legit.

Chem-Dog
22-11-2009, 00:47
3. In the assault phase he jumped them backwards, I didnt know you could just jump in the assault phase without assaulting.

Everyone else has said pretty much what I would have said so I'll just pick up this point. Jetpacks are a type of Jump Pack their rules are in the main 40K rule book.

As for the rest, as you've not faced Tau before it would have been a good idea to ask to be shown where in the rules it says the bits he's using do what he is saying they do as it sounds a bit like he was relying on your ignorance.

In defence of the Tau player, I have personally been guilty of the wait and see approach to shooting allocation, in my case it was resolving the rest of a squad's shooting before deciding wether or not to risk shooting with a pasma gunner, this was a genuine mistake on my part and it would only be fair to assume that it's the same in this instance, especially with a squad that can be potentially targetting six seperate units.

Just wait until you're rear ended by a markerlight guided Missile launched by a Piranha in your rear arc despite the fact the Markerlight's in front :cries:

mafty
22-11-2009, 01:07
dam, so that command squad is really worth their points, I couldnt touch them for 6 turns putting a lot of fire power on them. All I managed to do was kill off a couple drones. It still seems odd the drones get a 4+ invulnerable, to me I would think they just get a regular armour save and the battlesuits get an invulnerable.

So i guess the only wrong doing was the way he was allocating his shots. So next time I know he must declare all his units shooting including the commander shooting at something else if he so chooses at the same time. Because he was basing his next shots on whether what he shot at first died or not.

Iceheart2112
22-11-2009, 01:25
Wait, wait, wait. Most of what has been said is correct. However, the commander can't split the two weapons he has at two different targets. Commander shoots at Target 1 with all of his weapons, not one weapon at one target and one at another.

Agnar the Howler
22-11-2009, 01:30
Wait, wait, wait. Most of what has been said is correct. However, the commander can't split the two weapons he has at two different targets. Commander shoots at Target 1 with all of his weapons, not one weapon at one target and one at another.

I think this is correct. Target lock allows the model to target a different unit than the rest of the squad, not sure about targetting a different squad with one of his weapons.

The scenario: Target 1 and Target 2 are both in range of Team 1 (consisting of three crisis suits, one of which has a Target Lock). The suit with target lock can shoot target 2 with his weapons (if he so wishes) and allow the other suits to shoot target 1 (or vice versa), what i'm not sure he can do is shoot 1 weapon at target 1 along with the rest of the team, and shoot his second weapon at target 2.

mafty
22-11-2009, 01:38
Wait, wait, wait. Most of what has been said is correct. However, the commander can't split the two weapons he has at two different targets. Commander shoots at Target 1 with all of his weapons, not one weapon at one target and one at another.

oh wow okay that really changes things then. So if that is the case I was cheated on. He was shooting his plasma rifle at one unit then shooting missle launchers at another. If he can only target another unit and shoot BOTH weapons thats very different to what happened

The Orange
22-11-2009, 01:40
Wow, a lot of wrong info here. Let me try to clear things up for you mafty because your opponent was probably doing some things wrong. Note this may not have been intentional because learning how Tau wargear can be confusing and I'd bet this guy is somewhat new to the army. So lets begin.

About the Drones, A Crisis Suit can take a drone controller which means he can add 2 drones to his squad, so yes a commander + 2 bodyguards can take up to 6 drones. (Note if a crisis suit dies he's drones are removed too). Next, there's 2 types of drones they can take, Shield drones have similar stats (toughness and armor save) to their controller + the INV save, gun drones on the other hand have guns. Hopefully your opponent had a mixed squad and didn't just combine the 2 traits into 1 drone. Also there is NO such rule that states Shield drones (or any drones) take hits first.

Now about the shooting, Tau crisis suits can take a "Target Lock" this allows the model to shoot a separate unit from his own unit (Note this does not allow a model to split firing between different units, and any drones bought do no benefit from this either). So taking your example of Commander + Bodyguard + Drones. Assume only the commander has a target lock, this means the Bodyguards and drones pick a unit to shoot at, and ONLY the commander can then shoot something else. Now here's another example, assume all Crisis suits have a Target Lock, now the Drones are the main unit that chooses a target, then each Crisis Suit can choose to shoot a different target. Also all shooting from the unit (Commander + Bodyguard + Drones) is done simultaneously. So there's no such thing as "I'll shoot him with this gun" rolls dice "Okay he's dead, I'll shoot him with that gun" rolls dice "Okay he's alive, so I'll shoot him again with those guns" rolls dice, etc. TBH are you guys sure your doing the whole wound allocation process right? (Also, just so you know the Tau do have 1 special character that can split her fire between different units, but that's the only model that can)

Finally, Tau Crisis Suits have "Jet Packs" not "Jump Packs", and the rules for them are in the rule book. They indeed allow the crisis suits (and stealth suits and drones with jet packs) to make a move in the assault phase. Also note that they do not move as far as "Jump Packs" in the movement phase.

Hope that helps clear some things up.

Dyrnwyn
22-11-2009, 01:43
Should point out, Shield Drones have a special rule where they get hit first. So, for wound allocation, the shield drones will soak up a bunch of hits if they were what he had in the unit.

Shield Drones have no such specific rule, and have never had such a rule. The closest thing to that would be the general drone rules under the old codex, which stated hits had to be allocated to any controlled drones before allocating any hits to Tau units. This no longer exists in the current Tau Empires codex.

EDIT:

dam, so that command squad is really worth their points, I couldnt touch them for 6 turns putting a lot of fire power on them. All I managed to do was kill off a couple drones. It still seems odd the drones get a 4+ invulnerable, to me I would think they just get a regular armour save and the battlesuits get an invulnerable.
The reason that Shield Drones have a 4+ invuln is because their only purpose is to provide a mobile shield generator; they have no guns or other weapons. Gun Drones have guns, but aren't as useful for soaking up fire.

Eldoriath
22-11-2009, 02:09
Nothing strange about shield drones having a inv save while suits don't. They are practically jus a mobile shield, incorporating a shield generator instead of guns, a piece of wargear that suits can take if they like, but generally it's way better taking the drone(s) instead.

But that is indeed a costy unit, every shield drone has the same cost as a basic tactical marine and each suits should come in around the cost of 4-5 space marines and the commander up around 6-8 space marines. Adding it all up he's probably paying 19-24 space marines for the unit.

susu.exp
22-11-2009, 02:20
And they cost quite a few points (6 Drones cost as much as a sizable Mob of Orks - more than a Marine Combat Squad). When facing Suits with Shield Drones, yone should pump cheap fire into them. The Drones die easily to massed bolter/lasgun/shuriken/fleshborer fire and you end up exposing the Suits for the bigger guns. As long as the Drones are still around your Anti-Elite Infantry weapons are wasted on the unit. Remember that the Drones are one wound group. Cause 10 wounds and your opponent ahs to roll 7 dice for the drones, while the suits roll individually.

Even better: Charge with a unit with a fist. Youīll be able to score a lot of cheap hits, dealing with the drones and maybe taking out one of the suits and then the fist strikes at I1 and will take out suits.

mafty
22-11-2009, 02:53
Wow, a lot of wrong info here. Let me try to clear things up for you mafty because your opponent was probably doing some things wrong. Note this may not have been intentional because learning how Tau wargear can be confusing and I'd bet this guy is somewhat new to the army. So lets begin.

About the Drones, A Crisis Suit can take a drone controller which means he can add 2 drones to his squad, so yes a commander + 2 bodyguards can take up to 6 drones. (Note if a crisis suit dies he's drones are removed too). Next, there's 2 types of drones they can take, Shield drones have similar stats (toughness and armor save) to their controller + the INV save, gun drones on the other hand have guns. Hopefully your opponent had a mixed squad and didn't just combine the 2 traits into 1 drone. Also there is NO such rule that states Shield drones (or any drones) take hits first.

Now about the shooting, Tau crisis suits can take a "Target Lock" this allows the model to shoot a separate unit from his own unit (Note this does not allow a model to split firing between different units, and any drones bought do no benefit from this either). So taking your example of Commander + Bodyguard + Drones. Assume only the commander has a target lock, this means the Bodyguards and drones pick a unit to shoot at, and ONLY the commander can then shoot something else. Now here's another example, assume all Crisis suits have a Target Lock, now the Drones are the main unit that chooses a target, then each Crisis Suit can choose to shoot a different target. Also all shooting from the unit (Commander + Bodyguard + Drones) is done simultaneously. So there's no such thing as "I'll shoot him with this gun" rolls dice "Okay he's dead, I'll shoot him with that gun" rolls dice "Okay he's alive, so I'll shoot him again with those guns" rolls dice, etc. TBH are you guys sure your doing the whole wound allocation process right? (Also, just so you know the Tau do have 1 special character that can split her fire between different units, but that's the only model that can)

Finally, Tau Crisis Suits have "Jet Packs" not "Jump Packs", and the rules for them are in the rule book. They indeed allow the crisis suits (and stealth suits and drones with jet packs) to make a move in the assault phase. Also note that they do not move as far as "Jump Packs" in the movement phase.

Hope that helps clear some things up.

thanks for the answer, that definatly cleared a lot up, so he definatly was doing things wrong as he was spliting the commanders fire (shooting one gun on one thing and the other gun on another). Also he didnt roll all to hit/wound together, which I should have pointed out to him.

I have one last question now. So now that Ive established there are shield drones and shooting drones. Do the shooting drones get an armor save? also, do shield drones have any special abilities? because he was using some of his drones to use some line of sight move that sent missiles from his tank at me. So Im assuming some of the drones were not shield drones.

Dyrnwyn
22-11-2009, 03:04
thanks for the answer, that definatly cleared a lot up, so he definatly was doing things wrong as he was spliting the commanders fire (shooting one gun on one thing and the other gun on another). Also he didnt roll all to hit/wound together, which I should have pointed out to him.

I have one last question now. So now that Ive established there are shield drones and shooting drones. Do the shooting drones get an armor save? also, do shield drones have any special abilities? because he was using some of his drones to use some line of sight move that sent missiles from his tank at me. So Im assuming some of the drones were not shield drones.

Drones of all types have a 4+ armor save. Shield Drones simply have a shield generator on top of that. the other special rule for Shield Drones simply means they are ignored for the purposes of majority toughness.

The Orange was technically incorrect; there are three types of Drones purchasable for wargear, and an additional type only found in Sniper Teams. Marker Drones are the third wargear type, and they are equipped with a Networked Markerlight and a Targetting Array to up their BS. Markerlight hits do not cause wounds, but instead generate tokens that can be expended to cause a variety of effects. One of said effects is the launch of a Seeker Missile from any vehicle on the board. LOS is not necessary, and range is unlimited. However, he has to have paid for the vehicle upgrade to have a missile mounted on the vehicle, and the missiles are one-use. Also Markerlight Drones are the most expensive drones, costing double what Shield Drones do.

mafty
22-11-2009, 03:10
Drones of all types have a 4+ armor save. Shield Drones simply have a shield generator on top of that. the other special rule for Shield Drones simply means they are ignored for the purposes of majority toughness.

The Orange was technically incorrect; there are three types of Drones purchasable for wargear, and an additional type only found in Sniper Teams. Marker Drones are the third wargear type, and they are equipped with a Networked Markerlight and a Targetting Array to up their BS. Markerlight hits do not cause wounds, but instead generate tokens that can be expended to cause a variety of effects. One of said effects is the launch of a Seeker Missile from any vehicle on the board. LOS is not necessary, and range is unlimited. However, he has to have paid for the vehicle upgrade to have a missile mounted on the vehicle, and the missiles are one-use. Also Markerlight Drones are the most expensive drones, costing double what Shield Drones do.

so the command unit can take these marker light drones? and im assuming they have a 4+ save as well? So only the shield drones get a 4+ invulnerable. Now do the commander and bodyguard have an invulernable?

also he said his unit cost 360 points, does that sounds about right for a commander, 2 body guard, 6 drones atleast one was a marker drone, and for sure some were shields.

polymphus
22-11-2009, 03:10
I have one last question now. So now that Ive established there are shield drones and shooting drones. Do the shooting drones get an armor save? also, do shield drones have any special abilities? because he was using some of his drones to use some line of sight move that sent missiles from his tank at me. So Im assuming some of the drones were not shield drones.

Re gundrones, haven't got my codex on me but yes they do. It's either 5+ or 4+. Shield drones have no special abilities except having TX and ASX, which means their toughness and armour save are the same as whoever is controlling them. The LoS move means he was using marker drones, which are a third drone type. Quick overview;

Gun Drones
-Cheapest drone, S5 pinning gun

Shield Drones
-4++ save, and the toughness and save of their controller

Marker Drones
-Have a markerlight. The rules take up half a page so I won't go into detail, but yes he can use it to launch seeker missiles at you. They work like Imperial Hunter Killer missiles except they're BS5, ignore LoS and can only be fired at a unit that's been hit by a markerlight.

I'm guessing he had a combination of all three. If he simply had 6 drones with all three abilities, you were cheated.

EDIT: Ugh ninjas. Gimme a minute to find my codex.

EDIT EDIT: All have 4+ armour saves 'cept the shield drone. 360pts does sound awfully cheap though. My commander with two shield drones runs in about 200pts. He's on the expensive end, but this bloke's running a bodyguard with marker drones as well. It's possible, but it seems that he'd be skimping on weapons systems to do it.

mafty
22-11-2009, 03:17
Re gundrones, haven't got my codex on me but yes they do. It's either 5+ or 4+. Shield drones have no special abilities except having TX and ASX, which means their toughness and armour save are the same as whoever is controlling them. The LoS move means he was using marker drones, which are a third drone type. Quick overview;

Gun Drones
-Cheapest drone, S5 pinning gun

Shield Drones
-4++ save, and the toughness and save of their controller

Marker Drones
-Have a markerlight. The rules take up half a page so I won't go into detail, but yes he can use it to launch seeker missiles at you. They work like Imperial Hunter Killer missiles except they're BS5, ignore LoS and can only be fired at a unit that's been hit by a markerlight.

I'm guessing he had a combination of all three. If he simply had 6 drones with all three abilities, you were cheated.

EDIT: Ugh ninjas. Gimme a minute to find my codex.

EDIT EDIT: All have 4+ armour saves 'cept the shield drone. 360pts does sound awfully cheap though. My commander with two shield drones runs in about 200pts. He's on the expensive end, but this bloke's running a bodyguard with marker drones as well. It's possible, but it seems that he'd be skimping on weapons systems to do it.

well he shoot missiles from a hammerhead at me, he said the hammerhead had 2 missiles per game. As I said Im not sure which drones he had, for sure one marker, and for sure several (if not the other 5) were shields. Im not sure if his drones ever shot at me.

polymphus
22-11-2009, 03:19
well he shoot missiles from a hammerhead at me, he said the hammerhead had 2 missiles per game.
Yup, that works. He's paying 20pts a hammerhead for those missiles though, so your best choice is just to laugh and thank god he didn't take any actual useful vehicle upgrades.

As I said Im not sure which drones he had, for sure one marker, and for sure several (if not the other 5) were shields. Im not sure if his drones ever shot at me.
Hmm. 4 Shield, 2 marker maybe? Sounds like the only way to keep the unit under 360pts and still retain your sanity. Give me a few minutes with the codex to see if I can figure it out. Do you remember what weapons the unit had?

The Orange
22-11-2009, 03:27
Yea, forgot about marker drones for some reason, polymphus has is pretty much correct.

To answer your Questions, Crisis suits do not have an INV save but can buy one ( Shield Generator, 4+). And about the shooting issue, though he did do it wrong, try to be a little reasonable as crisis suit shooting can become a nightmare to keep track of if you try to do it all at one time. As I believe how it works, he should be nominating all targets before rolling any dice, but after that I don't think there's much harm in letting him break up the dice rolls into similar groups (ex: all missile pod shots in one group or all shots against a different unit rolled separately). Whatever works to make it easier to keep track of without giving anyone an advantage.

susu.exp
22-11-2009, 03:30
On page one he mentiones plasma and missile pods. Assuming a Shas'el I get 331 with shild drones only. ('el, 2 Bodyguard, 3PR, 3MP, 2TL, 3MT, 6SD). With 2 MDs heīd be just over 360.
So, mafty: What BS did his commander have? If it was 4 heīd be at at least 371 points with a marker drone.

mafty
22-11-2009, 03:33
Yup, that works. He's paying 20pts a hammerhead for those missiles though, so your best choice is just to laugh and thank god he didn't take any actual useful vehicle upgrades.

Hmm. 4 Shield, 2 marker maybe? Sounds like the only way to keep the unit under 360pts and still retain your sanity. Give me a few minutes with the codex to see if I can figure it out. Do you remember what weapons the unit had?


On page one he mentiones plasma and missile pods. Assuming a Shas'el I get 331 with shild drones only. ('el, 2 Bodyguard, 3PR, 3MP, 2TL, 3MT, 6SD). With 2 MDs heīd be just over 360.
So, mafty: What BS did his commander have? If it was 4 heīd be at at least 371 points with a marker drone.

He said his commander had 4 weapons? I know for sure everyone had plasma rifles and missile launchers. And he had 4+ invul on his unit (so he said), and he was shooting at BS4.

polymphus
22-11-2009, 03:37
He said his commander had 4 weapons? I know for sure everyone had plasma rifles and missile launchers. And he had 4+ invul on his unit (so he said), and he was shooting at BS4.
Well a 4 weapon commander is certainly illegal. 3 Fireknives with targeting arrats and hard-wired target locks and multitrackers? Gimme a minute to work that out.

EDIT: 426pts for the following;

Commander Shas'O
Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod
hard-wired multitracker, target lock, drone controller
Bonding Knife, Targeting Array
2 Marker Drones

2 XV8 Shas'vre bodyguards
Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod
hard-wired multitracker, target lock, drone controller
Targeting Array
4 Shield Drones

You can strip about 30pts off that if you want to run things really skin-and-bone, but 360pts is impossible.

mafty
22-11-2009, 03:49
Well a 4 weapon commander is certainly illegal. 3 Fireknives with targeting arrats and hard-wired target locks and multitrackers? Gimme a minute to work that out.

EDIT: 426pts for the following;

Commander Shas'O
Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod
hard-wired multitracker, target lock, drone controller
Bonding Knife, Targeting Array
2 Marker Drones

2 XV8 Shas'vre bodyguards
Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod
hard-wired multitracker, target lock, drone controller
Targeting Array
4 Shield Drones

You can strip about 30pts off that if you want to run things really skin-and-bone, but 360pts is impossible.

The bodyguards didnt have target lock, or multi-tracker (I dont think, they were at BS4, but couldnt shoot a different unit). only his commander had the ability to shoot a different unit. And not 100% sure, but pretty sure there may have been only 1 marker drone.

polymphus
22-11-2009, 03:53
Target lock lets them shoot at a different target, multitracker lets them fire two weapons in a turn. Even with the shas'O as a shas'El and none of those upgrades, you're running about 380pts.

ProfessorCurly
22-11-2009, 03:54
Shas'el - 132pts
-Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod
-Targeting Array
-Hard Wired: Multitracker, Target Lock
-Hard Wired: Drone Controller w/ x2 Sheild Drones

Bodyguard A - 112pts
-Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod
-Targeting Array
-Hard Wired Multi-Tracker
-Drone Controller w/ x2 Sheild Drones

Bodyguard B - 127pts
-Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod
-Targeting Array
-Hard Wired Multi-Tracker
-Drone Controller w/ x1 Shield Drone, x1 Marker Drone

Total: 371pts

Yes, that is a legal unit. I don't think I'd ever use it, but there it is.

Just to reiterate:

Individual Crisis Suits can -not- split their weapons fire. No firing the Plasma Rifle at one thing and the Missile Pods at another. Each suit has to fire both weapons at the same target.

All of the shooting of the unit has to be declared at the -same time-. It should be noted that he can fire his Marker Drones before everything else, and use their markerlights to benefit the rest of the unit thanks to their Networked Markerlights. However the suits have to say what they're firing at before any rolls are made.

First:

He must Declare:
Commander shoots at Target A
Bodyguard A shoots at Target B
Bodyguard B shoots at Target C
Marker Drones Shoot at Target C

A note, this is possible because while the 'Unit' is shooting at Target C, the Commander and Bodyguard A to shoot at other things. There is no reason to buy a target lock for the last Suit.

Now that all the firing has been declared:
You roll the Marker Drone hits first. Then you can use their Markerlights however.

Then you roll all of the rest of the firing. It doesn't matter the sequence, but it counts as happening simultaneously. There is no shooting at something, waiting to see what happens, then deciding what the next suit will shoot at.

Hope that helps anyway.

EDIT: Oh! He must not have had a Targeting Array on his commander. That would put it at 361 points by my count and every suit in the unit would have been BS4. Sound right?

polymphus
22-11-2009, 03:56
But he said they were BS4, which would require at least two targeting arrays. Doesn't seem a very tough unit though: so long as you dedicate dakka instead of anti-tank firepower at it, it should go down fairly quickly.

mafty
22-11-2009, 03:58
Shas'el - 122pts
-Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod
-Multitracker, Target Lock
-Drone Controller w/ x2 Sheild Drones

Bodyguard A - 107pts
-Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod
-Multi-Tracker, Target Lock
-Drone Controller w/ x2 Sheild Drones

Bodyguard B - 132pts
-Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod
-Multi-Tracker
-Drone Controller w/ x2 Marker Drone

Total: 361pts

Yes, that is a legal unit. I don't think I'd ever use it, but there it is.

Just to reiterate:

Individual Crisis Suits can -not- split their weapons fire. No firing the Plasma Rifle at one thing and the Missile Pods at another. Each suit has to fire both weapons at the same target.

All of the shooting of the unit has to be declared at the -same time-. It should be noted that he can fire his Marker Drones before everything else, and use their markerlights to benefit the rest of the unit thanks to their Networked Markerlights. However the suits have to say what they're firing at before any rolls are made.

First:

He must Declare:
Commander shoots at Target A
Bodyguard A shoots at Target B
Bodyguard B shoots at Target C
Marker Drones Shoot at Target C

A note, this is possible because while the 'Unit' is shooting at Target C, the Commander and Bodyguard A to shoot at other things. There is no reason to buy a target lock for the last Suit.

Now that all the firing has been declared:
You roll the Marker Drone hits first. Then you can use their Markerlights however.

Then you roll all of the rest of the firing. It doesn't matter the sequence, but it counts as happening simultaneously. There is no shooting at something, waiting to see what happens, then deciding what the next suit will shoot at.

Hope that helps anyway.

yes that does help, I was looking at the BRB and I believe he was running a Shas'O because he was hitting on 2+. Not sure if his bodyguards were hitting on 2's or 3's though. Can everyone in the unit get an invulnerable save? Im still slightly confused as to how this invulnerable save works. Does the drone get the invul, or is it the crisis suit. And does that invul transfer to the entire squad (including marker drones and shooting drones)

ProfessorCurly
22-11-2009, 04:14
Ah, then he was about 10 points over. A Shas'El w/ Targeting Array hits on 2's. That unit costs 371 points, and is in fact the one I posted. Either he did the math wrong, had a few Gun Drones, or you're remembering about 10 points off. Either way.

ONLY the Shield Drones have a 4+ invulnerable save. They also have the same toughness and armor save as the one they are guarding. So with Crisis Suits, Shield Drones are toughness 4 with a 3+ armor save and a 4+ invulnerable save.

If he bought the same drones for Broadside Battlesuits they would be toughness 4 with a 2+ armor save and a 4+ invulnerable. Does that make it clearer?

But only they have the 4+ invulnerable, not the squad. The squad -can- have a 4+ invulnerable, but in that case they could not have Bs4.

Each Crisis Suit has 3 'hard points'. Each weapon takes up a hardpoint, and then each piece of wargear takes up a hardpoint. Hard-Wired equipment, which all commanders/bodyguards have access to don't take a Hard Point.

Targeting Arrays (the increase in BS) and Shield Generators (a 4+ save for the Crisis Suit) have no Hard-Wired version. So if he has a Plasma Rifle (1 Hard Point), Missile Pod (Another Hard Point) he has to chose between a Targeting Array or a Shield Generator.

Either way he can still have a Hard Wired Multi-Tracker (Shoot two weapons) and a Hard-Wired Drone Controller, because they don't take up a hardpoint being Hard-Wired.

What he can do is assign wounds to the Drones first; In my example he has 5 Shield Drones. If you do 5 Lascannon wounds to him, he can put all of those on the Drones and get a 4+ invulnerable save against them. However if you do 6 wounds he has to start placing wounds on other models. If you did 6 Lascannon wounds he could put 5 on the Shield Drones and 1 on the Marker Drone. This would result in 5 4+ invulnerable saves from the Shield Drones and a dead Marker Drone.

He could also put that last wound a Crisis Suit, but that would be inadvisable. Lascannons instakill Crisis Suits.

If you put 9 wounds on the unit he would have to assign a wound to every model (5 to the Shield Drones, 1 to the Marker Drone, 3 to the Crisis Suits). After that you'd have to put another 6 wounds to get back to the Crisis Suits, as he'd just assign the wounds to the Drones again. The wound allocation rule of thumb is this:

Every model has to have a wound allocated to it before you can allocate a model 2 wounds. See your 5th Edition Rulebook, Pg 25 under 'complex units' for a more complete explanation. Those are the rules he has to follow. The Shield Drones don't pass on any generators or other nonsense.

mafty
22-11-2009, 04:25
I know how wound allocation works, so his crisis suits can never have an invulnerable though is basically what im after. And only shield generaters have invulnerables, not markers or shooting drones.

ProfessorCurly
22-11-2009, 04:31
Not -can't-, but in this case don't. Crisis Suits -can- have a 4+ invulnerable. Just not a 4+ invulnerable and BS4.

And no, the Drones don't give the other units a 4+ invulnerable, only they have it.

massey
22-11-2009, 04:32
Crisis Suits CAN have an invulnerable, but with the description you gave of his army, it sounds like he didn't have them. Or shouldn't have had them.

The Orange
22-11-2009, 04:49
Does the drone get the invul, or is it the crisis suit. And does that invul transfer to the entire squad (including marker drones and shooting drones)

It's really simple, there's no special voodoo honkey tonky Tau shield technology. Shield drones have a INV. Save, if a crisis suit wants an INV save it must buy a Shield Generator (this is not a drone, it is wargear like the target lock or multi-tracker).... and that's it.

The purpose of the Shield Drone is simple, it's a decoy. Instead of shooting a a 3-man Crisis Suit unit, you'll be shooting at a 5-9 man unit some with INV saves and some without INV saves, and at a far cheaper price tag.

polymphus
22-11-2009, 04:49
Pretty much. He can either have BS4, a 4++ save or two weapons. He can't have all of them. He can still take shield drones though.

mafty
22-11-2009, 05:16
Pretty much. He can either have BS4, a 4++ save or two weapons. He can't have all of them. He can still take shield drones though.

Oh okay, I think his unit was illegal then, because he was using 2 weapons per guy, using a 4+ invulnerable, and was shooting me at BS4 (the commander was shooting me at BS5 I think)

TheMav80
22-11-2009, 05:58
If your friend is new to the game, it is pretty understandable. I played Tau as my first ever 40K army...and my friends still give me a hard time about how much I "cheated".

I also thought Multi-Trackers allowed one crisis suit to split their fire.
Also thought Firewarriors rapid fired at 15 inches.
Also thought I could just buy two plasma rifles and not have them twin-linked. :rolleyes:

mdauben
22-11-2009, 17:01
Oh okay, I think his unit was illegal then, because he was using 2 weapons per guy, using a 4+ invulnerable, and was shooting me at BS4 (the commander was shooting me at BS5 I think)
Now, you could build a Shas'o (the more expensive commander) with BS5 (base), 4+ Inv. (HP Shield Generator), shooting two weapons (2x HP weapons + HW Multi-tracker), shooting at a different target than the Bodyguard (HW Target Lock) and two drones (HW Drone Controler). Now, that will cost 157-197 points (depending on the Drones), just for that one Crisis Suit, but it can be done.

He could not do that with all the Bodyguard, however, as weapons, shield generators (4+ Inv) and targeting array (BS4) are all Hard Point only systems, and since there are only three hard points on any Crisis Suit, he can't fit all four on one suit.

Like others have said, I would cut your friend some slack though. The Crisis Suit is probably one of the most rules-intensive unit in the game. Lots of specifications to meet, two different ways of taking some wargear (but not all), and many pieces of rules-altering wargear, can make Crisis Suits most confusing to a newbie. :confused:

I would try to sit down with my friend and his codex, go over the several pages of rules, stats and wargear, ask a few questions here if you need to, and see if you can't get everything cleared up. ;)

Lothlanathorian
22-11-2009, 18:38
Shield Drones have no such specific rule, and have never had such a rule. The closest thing to that would be the general drone rules under the old codex, which stated hits had to be allocated to any controlled drones before allocating any hits to Tau units. This no longer exists in the current Tau Empires codex.


Ah, okay. I had a case of Old Gamer Syndrome there:angel: (and I remembered the rule wrong lol). Thanks for the clarification .

mafty
22-11-2009, 19:00
Now, you could build a Shas'o (the more expensive commander) with BS5 (base), 4+ Inv. (HP Shield Generator), shooting two weapons (2x HP weapons + HW Multi-tracker), shooting at a different target than the Bodyguard (HW Target Lock) and two drones (HW Drone Controler). Now, that will cost 157-197 points (depending on the Drones), just for that one Crisis Suit, but it can be done.

He could not do that with all the Bodyguard, however, as weapons, shield generators (4+ Inv) and targeting array (BS4) are all Hard Point only systems, and since there are only three hard points on any Crisis Suit, he can't fit all four on one suit.

Like others have said, I would cut your friend some slack though. The Crisis Suit is probably one of the most rules-intensive unit in the game. Lots of specifications to meet, two different ways of taking some wargear (but not all), and many pieces of rules-altering wargear, can make Crisis Suits most confusing to a newbie. :confused:

I would try to sit down with my friend and his codex, go over the several pages of rules, stats and wargear, ask a few questions here if you need to, and see if you can't get everything cleared up. ;)

yea it wasnt a friend, just someone i played against. so its kind of hard to call him on his list mid-game, i expect people to know their armies.

but from what you just said above, the whole 3 hard points, it seems possible that it wasnt wrong in that sense, I mean:

1. invulnerable save (which he had)
2. BS4 (also had)
3. 2 weapons (also had)

thats only 3 hard points.......so that doesnt seem wrong. only thing was his commander had target lock, so if thats a hard point then his commander had 4, well maybe not because he was at BS5, which is a base stat, so maybe dropped the BS4 upgrade on him.

susu.exp
22-11-2009, 20:59
Each of the weapons takes a hard point.

mafty
22-11-2009, 21:26
Each of the weapons takes a hard point.

ah, then he had 4 points per model, unless he was confused about the invulnerable save and thought the shield drone gave the bodyguard and commander the invul as well

Agnar the Howler
22-11-2009, 21:45
It depends on what you shot at him with. If he had 3 suits and 6 shield drones, and you fire 4 plasma rifles, then all he has to do is allocate the 4 wounds to 4 of the shield drones, as you target the unit, not an individual suit. Note that a commander with bodyguard counts as a unit until both bodyguards are dead, then the commander regains his IC status and is free to join units etc. But since it is a unit, you'll have to pile large numbers of shots onto it to get past the drones and hit suits as well. If i'm not mistaken, 7 shots would've meant he had to allocate 6 wounds onto the drones, and 1 onto a suit; if all those shots were las-cannons, bang goes the suit (I think, may be wrong since i've never been in such a situation) but since i've not known a single unit to be packing 7 las-cannons...

2 Weapons = two hard-points
If the bodyguards had BS4, then the targetting array takes up the final hard-point.
However, suits can take hard-wired equipment, which do not take up hard-points. One of the hard-wired equipment pieces is a drone controller, allowing a suit to take 1-2 drones of any combination (in this case, shield).

This means that he was indeed legal, as he had 3 hard-points (2 weapons and a targetting array) and any number of added hard-wired equipment (multi-tracker and drone controller seem most likely).

Also, by giving the commander and bodyguard invulnerable saves, what do you mean? If you mean that he took a 4+ invulnerable save against shots fired at the unit that required one, then it's perfectly fine. You fire at the unit with a lascannon, he allocates the wound to the shield drone which then takes a 4+ invulnerable save. If you mean that you fired a lascannon shot and he specifically stated that he was allocating the wound to a crisis suit, then he was cheating, although I don't see why he'd do that unless it was to take a save against a S7 or under weapon with an AP of 4 or worse. He can afford to take a single wound on either bodyguard before they die, but allocating a wound that requires an invulnerable save to a suit seems stupid.