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blackjack
22-11-2009, 03:39
I will try to explain what happened last week as best I can.

I am running a very wide (200mm) cav line. I charge an enemy block in the flank. I hit the front left corner of the enemy and "free wheel" into the flank. while free wheeling I hit a second enemy unit that is behind the first one. Now my cav line is not flush with either unit but contacting both units on the front left corners.

How is this resolved?

I claimed that both enemy units would have to conform to my line so we are all flush. In the spirit that it is legal to move the charged unit a bit to make as full contact as possible.

My opponent claimed it was a failed charge as I could not 'fit' on his flank.

Which is correct? Direct Rules References would be greatly aprechiated.

Thanks in advance.

Nurgling Chieftain
22-11-2009, 06:48
You were correct. For reference:
BRB FAQ Part 1, page 7, right column, second sentence:
If the process of alignment carries you into further enemy units then those units become drawn into the combat and the whole lot are aligned into a battleline in order to bring as many models into combat as possible.

blackjack
22-11-2009, 15:53
does anyone have anything more definitive?

Covalent
22-11-2009, 16:09
I think that's clear enough lol. The BRB has a rule directly for this kind of issue, so you shouldn't look further ;)

blackjack
22-11-2009, 16:15
Doh! Ignore me. I only read the first response. not sure how I missed the faq reference, brain fart..

enyoss
22-11-2009, 17:04
Doh! Ignore me. I only read the first response. not sure how I missed the faq reference, brain fart..

Yeah, my first response was a bit vague as I didn't have a BRB, so I deleted it once Nurgling Chieftain gave a reference. Sorry for the confusion!

Toads77
22-11-2009, 19:03
I have a question regarding the free wheel and charging multiple units. If charging a chariot (or monster sized base) with a rank and file unit, can you use free wheel to engage another unit when wheeling to align even though the charging unit can easily avoid that second unit if they hit the chariot in the center instead of their out side. (the end result would look like a L instead of a T)

Basically what is comes down to is that my opponent used the free wheel to engage another unit even tho he didn't have to, is this legal?

ewar
22-11-2009, 22:37
It is legal as long as obeyed all the other rules, most pertinently that he maximised models in combat - as long as you do that then I say fair play to him, sounds like a nice move.

Toads77
23-11-2009, 05:48
Re-reading the rules of multiple targets for a charge it says 'It might happen that a unit cannot charge it's intended target without simultaneously charging other enemy units.'

By this wording it seems to me that the only way to charge two or more units if there is no other choice and must be in contact with them, no way around it. However in my example there was a clear way of not hitting both, so it should not have taken place.

rtunian
23-11-2009, 13:55
unfortunately, the reference that is cited explaining how units can be brought into combat by the free wheel is not actually part of the faq. it is the second appendix of the 2/28 faq/errata document.

for the same reasons that clipping/sliding is decided between opponents from game to game, or decided by tournament organizers before an event, the free wheel may or may not be used to bring new units into combat. you must decide before the game, and if you don't, the only fair way to do it during a game is to d6 it (assuming you and opponent disagree about how to handle).

again, just like sliding, this is NOT part of the actual rules. it is a suggestion for how to play in an appendix tacked on to the end of a faq/errata document.

blackjack
23-11-2009, 14:21
yes In my case I had not choice. I was on the flank, my cav unit was 200mm wide and it could in no way get into contact without hitting a second unit.

EvC
23-11-2009, 23:41
unfortunately, the reference that is cited explaining how units can be brought into combat by the free wheel is not actually part of the faq. it is the second appendix of the 2/28 faq/errata document.

for the same reasons that clipping/sliding is decided between opponents from game to game, or decided by tournament organizers before an event, the free wheel may or may not be used to bring new units into combat. you must decide before the game, and if you don't, the only fair way to do it during a game is to d6 it (assuming you and opponent disagree about how to handle).

again, just like sliding, this is NOT part of the actual rules. it is a suggestion for how to play in an appendix tacked on to the end of a faq/errata document.

Well, in the case of charging multiple units, it IS in the main rules. However, what happens when you awkwardly make contact with two enemy units, such as during the free align, is not covered in detail. In this case you might as well use the FAQ's appendix.

rtunian
24-11-2009, 00:01
the case of charging multiple units is separate from the case of using the free wheel to bring more units into combat.

if you are intentionally declaring a charge against multiple units that can only be completed with movement that is beyond your charge movement, then you are declaring a charge that is beyond your charge reach, and is therefore illegal to declare.

you can only legally declare a charge against a unit that you can reach. so, when you move chargers, you have to maximize contact relative to the unit that you declared the charge against. THEN, if your wheel has brought you into contact with more units, they are brought into combat.

EvC
24-11-2009, 12:24
Yes indeed. And as it's unlikely that every enemy unit will be deployed exactly squarely and flush as in the section on multiple charges, it means that when you align you may do so at an odd angle, as stated. In which case you'll need to refer to the FAQ or come up with some other mutually acceptable result. I once had someone argue that I could not charge either of two units because the align would mean hitting the other one, and he didn't like playing by the FAQ. Suffice to say, he was an ass.

rtunian
24-11-2009, 13:33
ah, i thought you were saying something else.

ya know, i don't understand why sometimes people just literally refuse to cooperate in these games. the "my way or the highway" attitude has no place in social environment, imo. while i obviously can understand being stubborn in a rules debate, i absolutely can not understand it in the context of game time. the point of warhammer is to play a game, not to argue about rules. arguing about rules is what warseer is for! :)

so did you give in to his "ruling" or did you request a d6, or did you pack up?

EvC
24-11-2009, 13:54
He wouldn't allow a D6 roll, but it wasn't worth packing up over. So I just told him categorically he was wrong, but if it meant to much to him I wouldn't do it- it was only deciding the fate of a little core unit. Then when I was on course to crumbling his Vampire Lord he said he had to go ;)

Tricky when you get that kind of opponent though, I had another one from his group who was trying to do a tactical wheel with a flying Dragon, again getting the rules completely wrong. He was practising for a big tournament and I told him did he really want to win through an illegal move that wouldn't be allowed at the tournament, and he said that the event's ref was a friend of his, so he'd be allowed to do it there too. Good stuff eh?